This is after running off Bell's. Looks like damage control on her part, knowing now how unpopular her actions were. I suspect voters will remember her running off Bell's more than the business plan release many months after her actions.
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134345
Part of operation CYA. The river vote is the other part.
I think Randi's 15 minutes are about up
That's unethical.
But there was a poll that said that some people might not go to the fair this year because they didn't like the way the Bell's thing ended.
Randi has seen stuff that the rest of us haven't that helps explain why the county made the decision.
I want to see what she has and think that it could go a long way in mending some of the concern's over Bell's leaving.
I think Randi is trying to protect the largest revenue source for Expo Square. I agree with her wanting to release this.
Explain why public records shouldn't be made public?
I agree, let's see them. It was my understanding that the business plan was poorly designed before this came up.
I'm not sure about Miller but she might have some ammo on this one.
As some of you know, I have low friends in high places. I've already gotten a copy of the business plan:
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/bidnessplan.jpg)
A business plan is proprietary information. If it is a true business plan it will have all of Bell's financial statements, competitive advantages, future strategies, etc. If it shows that this business is viable (at any location), a competitor would have an opportunity to utilize information within that business plan to their own competitive advantage.
As an example, do you think the Branson Landing people would want THEIR business plan released to their competition??? Of course not.
If for some reason they want to release the business plan because it's just some scratchings (like Conan's post) on a piece of paper, than that would be ok. But if it's a true business plan, that would open the county up for a definite lawsuit.
How about Randi gives us the results of her most recent mammogram and pap-smear?
After all, Its in our interest that our public officials are in top physical condition since they control our money.
Im asking for clinical results, not photos!!!!
Clearly I would be interesting in seeing it, it would certainly help me decide if the county made a wise decision or one as dumb as it appears.
Of course, that information is indeed the property of the Bells. I doubt she will be able to release it.
Then again... since they kicked the company out, they are no longer a going concern. How relevant is their business plan? Not that it really helps, just sayin'. One would think Robby would be all about releasing it if it supported his argument and/or would encourage other communities to want to attract Bell's.
I think Rob took it in the arse....But Conan that was funny as hell.....heh...
I agree the business plan is proprietary information, the release of which could damage Bell's. Furthermore, it is a little hard to imagine what could possibly have been in the business plan that would have justified the sudden decision and demand for relatively immediate evacuation of the site. Has she not heard of negotiating? Maybe they could have come up with a win-win, rather than the lose-lose she gave us.
I'm no fan of Randi Miller, but ...
If you had such a good business plan, Robby, release it to the public and show us. Call your bluff.
I'm sure the plan falls under public records, since Bell's had a contract with a public entity supported by taxpayers. A Freedom of Information Act request probably would reveal it.
And the fact Robby is claiming that release of the plan would tip off his competitors is laughable. What competitors? What was so super-duper great about Bell's right before its closing that anyone would want to emulate it?
Randi Miller has got to be the most polarizing figure in local politics.
There is absolutely zero need to release this. She needs to let it go and move on. Even if she does release it, it's not going to get her another term in office nor improve her image.
I'm surprised she hasn't planted a flak on here to try to make her look better. I don't think I've heard a single flattering comment toward her on here in the last six months.
I hate to ask this, but could someone explain to me why Bells' demise is such a tragedy? Is it the historical significance or that it was the only local amusement park or is it simply nostalgia? The few times I took my family there, it was overrun by unsupervised obnoxius and often times violent teenagers and had trash strewn all over the place.
As for the business plan, I say let's see it. If there is something "proprietary" in the plan, it can be redacted.
I think you've hit on it, guido -- the nostalgia factor.
I noticed an awful lot of people complaining about Bell's demise were those who were there 30 years ago and hadn't been to it in decades.
A publicly elected official asks in a public meeting for a plan from a company that has a contract producing income for a county entity on government owned property.
It may be sensitive in nature, but that makes it open to public scrutiny in my opinion.
Release the plan. We have a right to know.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
A publicly elected official asks in a public meeting for a plan from a company that has a contract producing income for a county entity on government owned property.
It may be sensitive in nature, but that makes it open to public scrutiny in my opinion.
Release the plan. We have a right to know.
We have a right to know what was in the agreement between the county and Bell's. And that is available. Nothing more.
Again, I ask, what could possibly be in the business plan that would justify the sudden and seemingly random decision to evict? I've been trying to let my imagination run wild and have not been able to come up with anything.
Sounds like a smokescreen to me. She knows she won't be allowed to release the business plan, so she's throwing that out there as an excuse for her irresponsible actions.
I agree, it could be sweet justice if Bell's would call her bluff and put the business plan out there for all to see.
I don't get it. Miller wants to release the business plan, because apparently she's taking flack over it? As far as I know, that's part of the job description, to take a lot of crap from people, get terrorized by bloggers, and sometimes get thoroughly embarrassed.
People aren't happy? Seriously? When did this happen?
This career path she's chosen, may not be right for her.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070821_1_A9_hPeop58735
Expo's $5 Million Dollar Kitchen
Can we see Exposerve Management Corp's Business Plan?
May as well provide the Business Plans for the Tulsa Driller's, Big Splash, Shoe Warehouse, Fair Meadows(?) and any other private business renting full time space on the grounds while we are at it.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
I don't get it. Miller wants to release the business plan, because apparently she's taking flack over it? As far as I know, that's part of the job description, to take a lot of crap from people, get terrorized by bloggers, and sometimes get thoroughly embarrassed.
People aren't happy? Seriously? When did this happen?
This career path she's chosen, may not be right for her.
Look at the bright side. We have the opportunity to
fire her help her find a more suitable occupation next election. When does her seat come up?
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070821_1_A9_hPeop58735
Expo's $5 Million Dollar Kitchen
Can we see Exposerve Management Corp's Business Plan?
Holy crap! That's not the half of it. The fair board was not happy with the plans for the kitchen they paid Matrix $300K for, so now they've decided to pay someone else an
additional $315K to come up with new plans.
Unless I'm mistaken- that's some of our tax dollars the fairboard is wasting, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070821_1_A9_hPeop58735
Expo's $5 Million Dollar Kitchen
Can we see Exposerve Management Corp's Business Plan?
Holy crap! That's not the half of it. The fair board was not happy with the plans for the kitchen they paid Matrix $300K for, so now they've decided to pay someone else an additional $315K to come up with new plans.
Unless I'm mistaken- that's some of our tax dollars the fairboard is wasting, right?
I wonder if this new proposed "Five Million Dollar Kitchen" is Martha Stewart approved?
She should be here for the grand opening !
I have been to many venues that have national chains and world famous fast food restaurants in their food courts that seem to satisfy their patrons. They lease space to the businesses plus get a percentage of the profits.
Majorities of people have more confidence in a name brand food source than an independent run concessionaire. Majority of the restaurants at many of those venues have sitting areas and are run 6 days per week and many have an opening to the outside of the buildings for public use during non-event times. Plus the majors accept credit cards.
I believe I read where the Civic Center sells iced water mixed beverages for $3 during the Talon and Oilers games. The Sports Team, City and Vendor split out the $3 three ways.
Would outsourcing the food vendors at the Expo be a better choice for variety and competitive pricing?
At one time Wal Mart attempted the Indy Fast Food deal, but now has a McDonalds inside most of their units. I would shelve the Indy Kitchen idea and follow the Wal Mart decision. Afterall the world's largest chain of fast-food restaurants, McDonalds, have been serving billions since 1940.
Invest the Five Million in other improvements that will benefit the citizens of the area, and open the food service up for bid.
Follow Sam Walton's Other People's Money theory, and have those businesses invest their own money into the food service equipmentm set a minimum dollar amount and require upgrades every so many years. Pop distributors provide fountain mix equipment and vending machines etc. Write the specs for the bid to include what you want and rule out others.
Is this Five Million Dollar kitchen to be run by QuikTrip?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Randi Miller has got to be the most polarizing figure in local politics.
There is absolutely zero need to release this. She needs to let it go and move on. Even if she does release it, it's not going to get her another term in office nor improve her image.
I'm surprised she hasn't planted a flak on here to try to make her look better. I don't think I've heard a single flattering comment toward her on here in the last six months.
The word "polarize" assumes that you create two poles -- in this case, I think there is universal dislike of Randi Miller. It's funny because John Q. Public, for the most part, really doesn't understand much of what the county government does. You have to be doing a really poor job to be this unpopular.
I disagree with many of the local pundits on a lot of issues, but I've picked up widespread disdain for her. Maybe the silver lining is that she unites people in this town on something for a change. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
As some of you know, I have low friends in high places. I've already gotten a copy of the business plan:
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/bidnessplan.jpg)
(http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/smiley-drink-spit.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
A publicly elected official asks in a public meeting for a plan from a company that has a contract producing income for a county entity on government owned property.
It may be sensitive in nature, but that makes it open to public scrutiny in my opinion.
Release the plan. We have a right to know.
I strongly disagree. We have no right to see this business plan. Not only is it proprietary, the County executed a non-disclosure agreement to view it themselves. Even if it were public information (which it is not), the County would have no right to release it regardless.
But, I hope they do. Then, Robby can sue the heck out of her, and win. That should about cover the cost of relocation, all new rides and retirement for the entire family, along with a couple of future generations.
And you wondered what they would be doing with all their excess revenue?
I volunteer to take one for the team.....heh....
I believe that Bell's plan is his private property and is not subject to the FOIA until it is accepted by the fair board. If it had been accepted and recorded in the minutes then it would become public information otherwise, it is only a proposal submitted for review to the fair board. It was the voters that allowed this monster of unchallengeable authority to be created.
The clip on the morning TV's with the caption that the bulldozer was preparing a free parking lot for the upcoming fair on the former location of the Bell amusement park should be the question of the day. The thought is if they only received a $1,000 a year it could be added to the fair income but the free parking lot will add nothing.
We have, as those democratic republics before us, became controlled by self-center officials where the expense of the bloated operation became too expensive to support. It is the same cycle over and over.
The best part of the fair, IMO, is the people watching. Those overweight, spandex and tube top wearing, BUPA having rednecks with dirty screaming future rednecks are interesting to see.
The worst part? How those mentally challenged mouth breathers park. They destroy landscaping, endanger pedestrians, and break the law.
Maybe a free parking lot isn't such a bad thing. I'm sorry for the loss of something that is important to so many but it's gone. Hopefully something good will come from the new addition of pavement. Less collateral damage to my neighborhood.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
As some of you know, I have low friends in high places. I've already gotten a copy of the business plan:
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/bidnessplan.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
The best part of the fair, IMO, is the people watching. Those overweight, spandex and tube top wearing, BUPA having rednecks with dirty screaming future rednecks are interesting to see.
The worst part? How those mentally challenged mouth breathers park. They destroy landscaping, endanger pedestrians, and break the law.
Maybe a free parking lot isn't such a bad thing. I'm sorry for the loss of something that is important to so many but it's gone. Hopefully something good will come from the new addition of pavement. Less collateral damage to my neighborhood.
That wasn't your yard I parked in last year was it? I'm about 6'2" 130 pounds, long mullet.
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/428611626_3f6470a6f0.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
The best part of the fair, IMO, is the people watching. Those overweight, spandex and tube top wearing, BUPA having rednecks with dirty screaming future rednecks are interesting to see.
The worst part? How those mentally challenged mouth breathers park. They destroy landscaping, endanger pedestrians, and break the law.
Maybe a free parking lot isn't such a bad thing. I'm sorry for the loss of something that is important to so many but it's gone. Hopefully something good will come from the new addition of pavement. Less collateral damage to my neighborhood.
That wasn't your yard I parked in last year was it? I'm about 6'2" 130 pounds, long mullet.
Does your girl wear a sleaveless pink cutoff t-shirt, have a huge belly that hangs over her acid washed shorts with holes in them, and ropers?...just might be one of the culprits
What're the rules on pungee sticks?
Not sure why Randi Miller thinks we need a 6 million dollar kitchen at the fairgrounds.
Seems to me, if they would be more frugal with our money there would be plenty to build projects like the river with.
It really irritates me to see how wasteful she is.
When is her term up? i want to put a Vote NO for Randi Miller sign in my yard - i will be sure not to put it on an easement. [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
The best part of the fair, IMO, is the people watching. Those overweight, spandex and tube top wearing, BUPA having rednecks with dirty screaming future rednecks are interesting to see.
The worst part? How those mentally challenged mouth breathers park. They destroy landscaping, endanger pedestrians, and break the law.
Maybe a free parking lot isn't such a bad thing. I'm sorry for the loss of something that is important to so many but it's gone. Hopefully something good will come from the new addition of pavement. Less collateral damage to my neighborhood.
That wasn't your yard I parked in last year was it? I'm about 6'2" 130 pounds, long mullet.
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/428611626_3f6470a6f0.jpg)
Do you look like Tommy Lee......
See, I always thought the plans for park-wide renovations, the new rides coming in this year, and the massive new wooden coaster coming in 2008 were signs enough that their business was doing fairly well, and about to do a whole lot better.
True, Robbie isn't a exactly a modern-buisness man, but that doesn't mean he wasn't doing a good job.
Hopefully, when he lands his new plan and gets the new park underway, he'll be able to release the old plans without the threat of competitors seeing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Shavethewhales
See, I always thought the plans for park-wide renovations, the new rides coming in this year, and the massive new wooden coaster coming in 2008 were signs enough that their business was doing fairly well, and about to do a whole lot better.
True, Robbie isn't a exactly a modern-buisness man, but that doesn't mean he wasn't doing a good job.
Hopefully, when he lands his new plan and gets the new park underway, he'll be able to release the old plans without the threat of competitors seeing it.
Who are Bell's competitors? Is Disney, Six Flags, Silver Dollar City, or some other amusement park company trying to get into Tulsa?
^PARC, CNL, and Great American Family Parks have been looking at the area, not to mention all those who would look at jumping into the business.
As 'midtownnewbie' said so well:
quote:
Originally posted by midtownnewbie
A business plan is proprietary information. If it is a true business plan it will have all of Bell's financial statements, competitive advantages, future strategies, etc. If it shows that this business is viable (at any location), a competitor would have an opportunity to utilize information within that business plan to their own competitive advantage.
As an example, do you think the Branson Landing people would want THEIR business plan released to their competition??? Of course not.
If for some reason they want to release the business plan because it's just some scratchings (like Conan's post) on a piece of paper, than that would be ok. But if it's a true business plan, that would open the county up for a definite lawsuit.
I could see quite a few people jumping at the chance to see Bell's documents, scarce and unkempt as they may be.
There isn't a new plan, and Bell's isn't going to reopen anywhere.
And in the age of computer games, starting an amusement park from scratch is not cost-effective. It's a slowly dying industry.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
A publicly elected official asks in a public meeting for a plan from a company that has a contract producing income for a county entity on government owned property.
It may be sensitive in nature, but that makes it open to public scrutiny in my opinion.
Release the plan. We have a right to know.
So, Spincycle, with the Drillers threatening to move, will you call their bluff by demanding they release their business plan or will you continue your legacy of hypocrisy? By your logic we have a right to know. You make this to easy.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
There isn't a new plan, and Bell's isn't going to reopen anywhere.
And in the age of computer games, starting an amusement park from scratch is not cost-effective. It's a slowly dying industry.
Just like newspapers, eh? You make this to easy.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
There isn't a new plan, and Bell's isn't going to reopen anywhere.
And in the age of computer games, starting an amusement park from scratch is not cost-effective. It's a slowly dying industry.
Yes...Thats why they are still constructing wooden roller coasters.....Now get your head outta the sand....
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
There isn't a new plan, and Bell's isn't going to reopen anywhere.
And in the age of computer games, starting an amusement park from scratch is not cost-effective. It's a slowly dying industry.
All the more reason that Tulsa County should have been more accommodating on Bell's lease. There is demand for small amusement parks, enough to keep them going even if not enough to justify building from scratch.
Last night, our family drove up to Bartlesville to go to their Kiddie Park. We went early enough to have dinner at Murphy's Steak House, then bought gas and drinks as we were headed out of town.
The place was more crowded than I've ever seen it. It took us 15 minutes in line just to buy tickets for the rides. Talk about a gathering place! There were families from all walks of life with nothing more in common than a desire to treat their children to a fun-filled evening.
Kiddie Park has had a hard time this summer -- rained out often, then closed for nearly a month to recover from the early July flooding of the Caney River. Families who had planned to visit earlier finally made it on this, the next to last weekend of the season.
Our two smaller kids had fun, but our oldest is too tall for most of the rides, which are aimed at 9 and under. That's something we miss about Bell's -- rides like the Scrambler, Pharoah's Fury, the Round-Up, the ski lift, the bumper boats, and the Himalaya that appealed to bigger kids.
As we were starting home last night, my son made some offhanded remark about a ride at Bell's. Once again, my seven-year-old daughter started sobbing, as she does anytime Bell's is mentioned or we drive past where it used to be.
She was finally tall enough that she could have ridden all the rides at Bell's this year. She said she was sad because she was already starting to forget what Bell's was like, and she was sad because her baby brother wouldn't remember it at all.
Tulsa's children didn't know or care how good a businessman Robby Bell was. They didn't notice that parts of the park were looking tatty. They didn't care that the rides were old fashioned. To them, it was a place of fun and excitement.
I can't see how the Arabian Horse Show is going to compensate for losing that aspect of our family's quality of life.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
A publicly elected official asks in a public meeting for a plan from a company that has a contract producing income for a county entity on government owned property.
It may be sensitive in nature, but that makes it open to public scrutiny in my opinion.
Release the plan. We have a right to know.
So, Spincycle, with the Drillers threatening to move, will you call their bluff by demanding they release their business plan or will you continue your legacy of hypocrisy? By your logic we have a right to know. You make this to easy.
Please refrain from calling me names.
The county commissioner asked for the business plan in public discussions about extending a lease for Bells's. The fairgrounds did not kick-off the amusement park, they chose to not extend the contract on publicly owned land.
The Drillers have a lease that extends through 2009. At the end of that term, if the Drillers are asked for a business plan and want to extend their lease, I would want to see any document that is brought into the public realm that included pertinent information.
Because it involves public dollars, public lands, and public officials...the public has a right to know.
If you don't want the information to be public, don't do any business with the government.
Even though they contract with the county, it is a private business. And one that may elect to operate elsewhere in the community. Unless absolutely necessary (directed by a judge perhaps) it seems to me that it would be abusive to open it to the public even though it would be juicy I'm sure. Miller can always imply to the public that the plan was weak but to open up private business proposals in detail to the public is wrong. A general description is enough.
If we open that can of worms, I agree that the Drillers who are threatening to leave, should also open up their books. They have no competition either do they? Then the Talons and Ice Oilers would have to open up. No, I think they all deserve the same protections that a private bidder who submits to the county would have.
Michael Bates wrote:
Tulsa's children didn't know or care how good a businessman Robby Bell was. They didn't notice that parts of the park were looking tatty.
<end clip>
But the parents do.
And they're the ones who have the money to take the kids out to the park.
An operator has to remember that he has to make sure the complex looks safe and clean for them.
By all accounts, this is where Robby Bell failed.
Perhaps it's not fair. But an amusement park operator has to be stupid or oblivious to not know that this is a crucial factor in remaining viable. You have to appeal to the parents as well as the kids.
^See, I don't understand that. I was at the park several times last year, and I thought everything looked pretty clean. Sure, it wasn't Disneyland, but I sure as hell felt 100 times safer than at the fair, and everything looked about what I expected it should. I mean, the place needed some TLC soon, and that was planned, but I don't understand why everyone expected Bell's to be the ultimate in cleanliness. It's like everyone has a desire to eat off the midway.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
There isn't a new plan, and Bell's isn't going to reopen anywhere.
And in the age of computer games, starting an amusement park from scratch is not cost-effective. It's a slowly dying industry.
Tell that to all the parks who spend upwards of $10 million a year on new rides, and make killings. Actually, almost every notable park in this country has been reporting increases in attendance for many years now, and new parks are opening up all over the place.
FWIW, I drove up 21st from the West yesterday towards the fairgrounds and noticed the new view without Bell's. It is going to be a really nice entryway. You can see the Driller, the Expo and now the Arena very clearly. The new buildings also show up. Suddenly you can see some potential.
We all miss Bell's. Even those of us who realized its time was past. Nothing good ever lasts forever.
It should reopen in Sand Springs.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Perhaps it's not fair. But an amusement park operator has to be stupid or oblivious to not know that this is a crucial factor in remaining viable. You have to appeal to the parents as well as the kids.
And of course, the remedy to a stupid or oblivious owner is to tear down the amusement park.
It just seems funny coming from you, rwarn. The El Vado Motel in Albuquerque shouldn't be torn down just because it had a owner who didn't appreciate what he had, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
The best part of the fair, IMO, is the people watching. Those overweight, spandex and tube top wearing, BUPA having rednecks with dirty screaming future rednecks are interesting to see.
The worst part? How those mentally challenged mouth breathers park. They destroy landscaping, endanger pedestrians, and break the law.
Maybe a free parking lot isn't such a bad thing. I'm sorry for the loss of something that is important to so many but it's gone. Hopefully something good will come from the new addition of pavement. Less collateral damage to my neighborhood.
That wasn't your yard I parked in last year was it? I'm about 6'2" 130 pounds, long mullet.
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/428611626_3f6470a6f0.jpg)
Do you look like Tommy Lee......
We're the same build from the waist down.
Michael Bates said:
And of course, the remedy to a stupid or oblivious owner is to tear down the amusement park.
It just seems funny coming from you, rwarn. The El Vado Motel in Albuquerque shouldn't be torn down just because it had a owner who didn't appreciate what he had, right?
<end clip>
Did I say that I supported the tearing down of Bell's? I do not.
I'm stating facts here. Robby Bell allowed the legacy that his dad built to deteriorate. That is the reality. And I see you've already agreed with me on that.
Is it fair that the county did this? Of course not.
But had Bell's been more viable and not so ramshackle in its operation and condition, this never would have happened.
Robby Bell certainly is partly culpable in this whole situation.
And you're going off-topic with the Route 66 connection, but ...
Yes, I already knew the El Vado Motel in Albuquerque was in jeopardy even before it was sold to a redeveloper because the motel owner didn't run it properly and thus made it into a near-marginal business.
One of the biggest problems Route 66 preservation faces is neglectful or indifferent property owners, not just developers.
That too is reality. I'm not looking at this through the misty eyes of sentimentality and denying it.
But you've been silent about Albuquerque's likely bid to seize the historic structure with eminent domain to save it. You've railed against eminent domain before. Would you oppose eminent domain as tool to save a historic structure?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
But you've been silent about Albuquerque's likely bid to seize the historic structure with eminent domain to save it. You've railed against eminent domain before. Would you oppose eminent domain as tool to save a historic structure?
Wow. That
is a good question for Michael.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I'm stating facts here. Robby Bell allowed the legacy that his dad built to deteriorate. That is the reality. And I see you've already agreed with me on that.
Is it fair that the county did this? Of course not.
But had Bell's been more viable and not so ramshackle in its operation and condition, this never would have happened.
Robby Bell certainly is partly culpable in this whole situation.
And here's where the real debate lies (or rather, was). Since Bell's had announced plans for a massive new roller coaster, and since Robbie had unofficially announce the park-wide re-hab project, shouldn't they have been given a chance? Robby Bell was wrong to let the park get as dirty as it was (not that it was really that terrible), but I still say he should have been given the chance to live up to his word and clean it up. After all, the sole reason for Bell's dropping to the state that it was in was because of the fact that they had spent the last several years on the verge of giving up and moving for lack of being able to expand. They weren't going to trouble themselves in really fixing up the park if they were just going to move, but when they got permission to finally expand and spruce the park back up, the fair dropped them. It's almost like they didn't want them to become successful again.
Still though, it's no worth really talking about anymore, as it's all over for that part of the story. The only thing I want to know now is what Robbie is up to. It's been so long since we've heard anything from him that his web domain has expired. I guess these things take time though; after all, most parks take +2 years to plan and build. The fact that he's still defending his park is a sign that he is at least still trying to some degree.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
But you've been silent about Albuquerque's likely bid to seize the historic structure with eminent domain to save it. You've railed against eminent domain before. Would you oppose eminent domain as tool to save a historic structure?
Rwarn, I didn't mean to pick on you, but you were saying some things that seemed surprising, knowing how committed you are to historic preservation, particularly preservation of places that a lot of people would write off as too tacky and kitschy to be worth saving. To me Bell's seems much like a typical Route 66 business: Family owned, family built, with a lot of sweat equity invested.
I guess I missed the latest developments in the El Vado situation. I wasn't aware of Albuquerque's plans to use eminent domain.
I've "railed" against the abuse of eminent domain for private benefit. I would also argue that eminent domain is often used to enable massive redevelopment projects which damage a city's urban fabric -- e.g. the Williams Center -- and to bypass the gradual revival of an area which preserves existing buildings and street patterns -- e.g. Cherry Street.
Eminent domain has its proper application when land is being taken for public use -- the classic example being public right-of-way for roads.
On the other hand, I think its wrong for government to "lease" its eminent domain powers to private businesses or organizations. No one should be forced to sell their home so Donald Trump can build a casino parking garage. There's something pernicious, too, about taking someone's property because it doesn't generate as much tax revenue as some other use might.
Some eminent domain malpractice is well-intentioned but nevertheless destructive. The demolition of Greenwood is one such example; the Williams Center is another. Much of the historic district of Savannah, Ga., would have been destroyed by a similar rationale, had not the citizens there rejected urban renewal on three separate occasions.
I will have to give this further thought, but at first blush, a taking with just compensation for the sake of historic preservation doesn't seem abusive. On a continuum, it's not as plainly just as a taking for a road or utility easement, but it's nowhere near the types of abuse I mentioned. Some might argue that an eminent domain taking with compensation for historic preservation is more respectful of private property rights than a regulatory "taking" that limits an owner's options without providing any compensation. (I don't buy the argument that a new land use regulation per se constitutes a taking.)
But all this is moot when it comes to Bell's. The land is owned by a governmental agency, which can and should look beyond profit and loss in making its decisions. The fair board could have granted Bell's lower lease payments, weighing that loss of revenue the public good of having an amusement park in Tulsa. Given the amount of public subsidy for facilities to support events like the Arabian Horse Show and the Tulsa Talons, a lower lease payment for Bell's would not have been unreasonable.
Another option would have been for the fair board to buy out Bell's lock, stock, and barrel, and issue an RFP for bidders to become the new amusement park operator. Again, the assumption is that a well-run amusement park is every bit the public amenity and "gathering place" that a fountain and a bit of statuary on the river would be.
The real defect in Bell's business plan had nothing to do with finances. If the plan had said, "Bell's will transform into a dirt lot prior to the 2008 Arabian Horse Show," it would have been perfectly acceptable.
<Michael Bates said:
I will have to give this further thought, but at first blush, a taking with just compensation for the sake of historic preservation doesn't seem abusive. On a continuum, it's not as plainly just as a taking for a road or utility easement, but it's nowhere near the types of abuse I mentioned. Some might argue that an eminent domain taking with compensation for historic preservation is more respectful of private property rights than a regulatory "taking" that limits an owner's options without providing any compensation.
<end clip>
I concur.
What really happened to Bell's Amusement Park?
http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=135092
Interesting story. Makes me even more curious about that business plan....
Oh didn't Randi Miller look like a deer in headlights when asked why the "business plan" request from Bells and none from Murphy?.
Indeed why not, or one for Murphy's Big Splash Water Park, the Drillers, or from the Off-Track Simulcast operator? Her response, "Well, what I do know is business plans will be asked on every tenant." Sure Randi . . we best not hold our breath on that.
There is little doubt Murphy's money is just irresistible to those in power, especially Commissioners Miller and Smaligo. What a disgrace and violation of the public's trust, IMHO. It would appear the Oath of Office both swore to means nothing to them, but truth be known they aren't the only ones!
If the public doesn't call for, no demand a full investigation of what appears nothing short of corruption at the fairgrounds and of the TCPFA, they deserve the government they've got; the best leadership a Carny's money can buy!
Looks like Artist is choking on this as hard as Randi "Brain Candy" Miller. Misery loves company. Talk about a gruesome twosome, though.
I think that Bell's did a terrible job keeping the facility clean, safe and running. The park was an embarrassment.
Everything else on Expo Square was getting nicer and Bell's was becoming a dump that wasn't safe for families.
I don't know if competitors worked to get him out or not, but what he was doing was not working. He ran the family business into the ground and now blames everybody else.
Wow, I give KOTV credit for actually reporting on something newsworthy.. or just cabbaging their story from this forum.
Either way.
Murphy's Big Splash is not in any better shape than Bells was. What a sham! Miller is a disgrace to the city and should be removed as soon as possible.
Would have been nice if KOTV had been listening to you 'bloggers' back when it could have saved Zingo. Once their poll finds that a majority of Tulsans are PO'd at the County for their treatment of Bells, well then they do the real story.
(http://www.thetulsan.com/images/bust.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I think that Bell's did a terrible job keeping the facility clean, safe and running. The park was an embarrassment.
Everything else on Expo Square was getting nicer and Bell's was becoming a dump that wasn't safe for families.
I don't know if competitors worked to get him out or not, but what he was doing was not working. He ran the family business into the ground and now blames everybody else.
Sounds like you have a personal problem with Robby......But it's kinda hard to make money when they wont allow you to make the neccesary imrovements.......Your beloved Drillers Stadium is not paradise either......So where is the slam on Lamson.......
Who else read the blog about the guy they hired, in what- 2004, who was starting to renovate Phantasmogoria? Along with the new business plan (not the one I secretly obtained) and plans for upgrades, I think the Bells were working in earnest to improve the park.
Was the place pristine? No, and I honestly can't ever remember it being pristine from my first memories of the park, 30-some years ago even.
According to the News On Six story, Bells paid more rent in '06 than '05, they had approval for major upgrades. Paid more rent than the other two tennants, so what gives? I can't believe the Drillers pay less than $1000 per game for rent on their space. Does anyone know if they have to share concessions revenue with the un fair board?
This was a railroad job and I think the reasons are going to become clear when the Arabian show has run out it's contract and we see what the land is used for then.
Booting out a tennant paying $135,000 + in rent to put in an asphalt free-parking area is a dumb business move on so many levels. This carte blanche agreement with Murphy also stinks to high heaven.
Sorry, there's just no defending the un fair board on this.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I think that Bell's did a terrible job keeping the facility clean, safe and running. The park was an embarrassment.
Everything else on Expo Square was getting nicer and Bell's was becoming a dump that wasn't safe for families.
I don't know if competitors worked to get him out or not, but what he was doing was not working. He ran the family business into the ground and now blames everybody else.
We went to the park at least a couple of times every year, and the kids always had a great time. We never noticed anything going on that made us feel nervous or unsafe, and I tend to keep my antennae up for that sort of thing.
It wouldn't surprise me if some sort of hotel is put in the space.
The Microtel there is the only one within a mile of the place. Given all the activity at Expo Square year-round, another one there certainly would be lucrative enough.
I'm not privy to any information. It's a hunch that just struck me the other day.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
We went to the park at least a couple of times every year, and the kids always had a great time. We never noticed anything going on that made us feel nervous or unsafe, and I tend to keep my antennae up for that sort of thing.
My kids always had fun there as well.
I remember the three or four times in the last four years where they had large gang fights and had to call in 100 deputies.
I also remember the miniature golf course, the part of the park facing the main street, being closed for the last few years. The carpet was ripped and stained for a decade and was never mowed.
How much upkeep does it take to maintain a miniature golf course?I don't dispute any notion that there were outside forces working against the third generation running the park. I have no idea if it is true.
I also think that the county should ask for business plans for the other tenants when they are negotiating leases and the tenants have obvious problems (like whole sections falling apart or closed because they can't maintain it). That holds true for the Drillers and Big Splash and Fair Meadows.
But the Bell's park was an embarassment. No other family oriented entertainment business I know of like it was run worse than the way this one was at the end.
Lord knows there were plenty of threads on this board in the past few years of people complaining how bad Bell's was.
But RM's point about the poor management and maintenance brings up an interesting aside.
I don't know what was in Robby Bell's business plan. Maybe it was one hell of a plan.
But given that the park was so ramshackle up to that point, who would have any confidence that Robby would properly implement the plan? Plans are worthless unless you have a demonstrable ability to fulfill them. You wouldn't plow future money into a mutual fund if its prior performance was bottom-tier, would you?
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I also remember the miniature golf course, the part of the park facing the main street, being closed for the last few years. The carpet was ripped and stained for a decade and was never mowed. How much upkeep does it take to maintain a miniature golf course?
The miniature golf course was one of my favorite parts of the park when I was a kid. There were two courses back then. But even then, it wasn't that popular.
By the time I attended a company picnic there in 1993, they had reconfigured it into a single course and removed the easternmost nine holes to make way for several large shelters for private parties. I'm not sure when Bell's shut down the miniature golf course completely.
You don't see many miniature golf courses anymore, and I assume it's because even the cost of having one person manning the booth plus maintaining the carpet and the moving hazards exceeds the revenue it brings in. Even the local Putt-Putt courses, which had no moving hazards, couldn't stay in business.
The remaining part of the course was supposed to have been in the footprint of the new coaster, when Bell's and the neighborhood finally came to an agreement sometime last year. Assuming that was in the works for sometime before it was announced, a major overhaul of the course wouldn't have made much sense.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Lord knows there were plenty of threads on this board in the past few years of people complaining how bad Bell's was.
But RM's point about the poor management and maintenance brings up an interesting aside.
I don't know what was in Robby Bell's business plan. Maybe it was one hell of a plan.
But given that the park was so ramshackle up to that point, who would have any confidence that Robby would properly implement the plan? Plans are worthless unless you have a demonstrable ability to fulfill them. You wouldn't plow future money into a mutual fund if its prior performance was bottom-tier, would you?
Did you ever actually ever set foot in the park? You use pretty strong adjectives like ramshackle, which is a gross exaggeration. I've been there in recent years, I have pretty high standards, but ramshackle and run-down are not two words that ever popped into my head.
Yes.
QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelBates
You don't see many miniature golf courses anymore, and I assume it's because even the cost of having one person manning the booth plus maintaining the carpet and the moving hazards exceeds the revenue it brings in. Even the local Putt-Putt courses, which had no moving hazards, couldn't stay in business. /quote]
The one at 61st and 169 is always being well used. It has waterfalls and more expensive-to-maintain hazards all over and dozens of families playing every time we go by. The miniature golf courses at Celebration Station always seem to have players as well.
My family went to Lake of the Ozarks this summer for a vacation and they had four big miniature golf courses within a mile or two of each other that were all packed.
It ain't miniature golf's fault. It was the park operator.
I can't get past the fact that the Drillers who take up a similar space on the NE corner paid $18,000 per year while Bell's on the SW corner paid $147,000 per year! Did the fair skew that number so radically? Hard to believe that. And he was the only one having to present a business plan? Unless they have one heck of a plan for that corner they could have offered him the same rent as the Drillers for a couple years in exchange for re-habbing it.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I can't get past the fact that the Drillers who take up a similar space on the NE corner paid $18,000 per year while Bell's on the SW corner paid $147,000 per year! Did the fair skew that number so radically? Hard to believe that. And he was the only one having to present a business plan? Unless they have one heck of a plan for that corner they could have offered him the same rent as the Drillers for a couple years in exchange for re-habbing it.
Drillers pay a portion of concessions as well.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Yes.
Okay at least you aren't going off based on other's accounts.
Though I have questioned your comprehension and interpretations before...[;)]
Does anyone know how much Murphy remits to the fair each year for their midway attractions during fair week? Do they split revenue with the fairboard? Eat caviar with Randi? How's it work?
How does that contract work?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Who else read the blog about the guy they hired, in what- 2004, who was starting to renovate Phantasmogoria? Along with the new business plan (not the one I secretly obtained) and plans for upgrades, I think the Bells were working in earnest to improve the park.
Was the place pristine? No, and I honestly can't ever remember it being pristine from my first memories of the park, 30-some years ago even.
According to the News On Six story, Bells paid more rent in '06 than '05, they had approval for major upgrades. Paid more rent than the other two tennants, so what gives? I can't believe the Drillers pay less than $1000 per game for rent on their space. Does anyone know if they have to share concessions revenue with the un fair board?
This was a railroad job and I think the reasons are going to become clear when the Arabian show has run out it's contract and we see what the land is used for then.
Booting out a tennant paying $135,000 + in rent to put in an asphalt free-parking area is a dumb business move on so many levels. This carte blanche agreement with Murphy also stinks to high heaven.
Sorry, there's just no defending the un fair board on this.
Bell's had always been safer, cleaner, and more family friendly than the Murphy midway and the dregs of the labor pool they employ.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Bell's had always been safer, cleaner, and more family friendly than the Murphy midway and the dregs of the labor pool they employ.
I remember working as a parking lot attendant during the fair when I was in high school.
There were about 20 carnival workers living out of three parked station wagons over by the old ballpark. You could smell them fifty feet away.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
My kids always had fun there as well.
I remember the three or four times in the last four years where they had large gang fights and had to call in 100 deputies.
I also remember the miniature golf course, the part of the park facing the main street, being closed for the last few years. The carpet was ripped and stained for a decade and was never mowed. How much upkeep does it take to maintain a miniature golf course?
I don't dispute any notion that there were outside forces working against the third generation running the park. I have no idea if it is true.
I also think that the county should ask for business plans for the other tenants when they are negotiating leases and the tenants have obvious problems (like whole sections falling apart or closed because they can't maintain it). That holds true for the Drillers and Big Splash and Fair Meadows.
But the Bell's park was an embarassment. No other family oriented entertainment business I know of like it was run worse than the way this one was at the end.
The miniature golf course was left to ruin because it was to be the site of that new roller-coaster. Unfortunately, they were delayed for years, so they never got around to starting construction.
If you think Bell's was an embarrassment, well... you're crazy - that's about it. Try out a few other entertainment venues of the likes of Bell's some time, it might open your eyes a little.
If you haven't read the KOTV article yet - read it. It makes everything as clear as day. Just look at how Bell's was about to explode with an entire new era of thrills. Anyone that complained about Bell's before surely can't argue that dismissing them the right to totally re-build the park makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Bell's had always been safer, cleaner, and more family friendly than the Murphy midway and the dregs of the labor pool they employ.
I remember working as a parking lot attendant during the fair when I was in high school.
There were about 20 carnival workers living out of three parked station wagons over by the old ballpark. You could smell them fifty feet away.
Did you ever meander over to investigate the distinct smell of burning rope from one of those station wagons?
quote:
Originally posted by Shavethewhales
Try out a few other entertainment venues of the likes of Bell's some time, it might open your eyes a little.
I have. I have two kids that love amusement parks. You don't know me and haven't been on this forum for long, but I have written about my family vacations for a few years now and quite a bit about other parks and children's activities.
I also wrote my thoughts about Bell's way before the county took their action. I have never lived more than 3 miles from Bell's in my life, had company parties there for years, played there as a teenager almost every summer night and went there with my kids and took out of town families there regularly each summer.
I am not disputing nor agreeing with what KOTV is implying with their report. I have no idea.
But I can name ten similar parks that we have visited across America that are cleaner and safer than we we saw the last couple of years at Bell's.
It didn't use to be that way.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I can't get past the fact that the Drillers who take up a similar space on the NE corner paid $18,000 per year while Bell's on the SW corner paid $147,000 per year! Did the fair skew that number so radically? Hard to believe that. And he was the only one having to present a business plan? Unless they have one heck of a plan for that corner they could have offered him the same rent as the Drillers for a couple years in exchange for re-habbing it.
Drillers pay a portion of concessions as well.
Do they get a % of Bell's concessions too?
If the Drillers averaged $5 per person concessions at the games and the average attendance was 4000 per game, thats only 20,000 per game. 20 home games? That's $400,000. Shared concessions maybe 20%? Thats still
$80,000 and I'm being generous with the attendance and $/person. Versus $147,000?
Counting the bedlam games and concerts in with the Drillers is around 70 events in 180 days.
The Drillers average 4,800 per game and the other two way more.
That is more than 325,000 fans a year. The Drillers alone are on pace to go over 300,000 for the 14th time in 15 years.
I bet the average fan buys more than five dollars worth of food and drink (we probably average twice that and some other fans even more).
I would guess the gross concession sales number to be closer to 3 million dollars a year. If the county got a 5% cut, that would be $150,000 a year. If the county got ten per cent, it would double the rent paid by Bell's each year.
I have to agree that while Bell's could've used some help, the fair midway is horrible. Disjointed, dirty, cables running everywhere, machines seem to be held together by the force, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Counting the bedlam games and concerts in with the Drillers is around 70 events in 180 days.
The Drillers average 4,800 per game and the other two way more.
That is more than 325,000 fans a year. The Drillers alone are on pace to go over 300,000 for the 14th time in 15 years.
I bet the average fan buys more than five dollars worth of food and drink (we probably average twice that and some other fans even more).
I would guess the gross concession sales number to be closer to 3 million dollars a year. If the county got a 5% cut, that would be $150,000 a year. If the county got ten per cent, it would double the rent paid by Bell's each year.
Well, that makes more sense. Even with the inflated fan numbers. $5 per person would include men/women/toddlers and babies.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Bell's had always been safer, cleaner, and more family friendly than the Murphy midway and the dregs of the labor pool they employ.
I remember working as a parking lot attendant during the fair when I was in high school.
There were about 20 carnival workers living out of three parked station wagons over by the old ballpark. You could smell them fifty feet away.
Now...It alll smells like horse$hit...As do you.....Get a grip......