I have to say that I probably believe that the race riots are probably still the cause of the relative condition of North Tulsa compared to South Tulsa today. It is shameful that it was largely ignored for so long, and despite what has been done, it is far from enough...
George Mason University's "History News Network" (//%22http://hnn.us/articles/38175.html%22)
4/30/07
Tulsa Still Hasn't Faced the Truth About the Race Riot of 1921
By John Hope Franklin
Mr. Franklin is the James B. Duke Professor Emeritus of History at the Law School at Duke University.
Following is the testimony Mr. Franklin gave on April 24, 2007 before the House Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, which is considering the Tulsa Greenwood Riot Accountability Act of 2007. The Act would extend the statute of limitations to allow the victims of the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921 to sue for damages.
I am an historian currently serving as the James B. Duke Professor of History Emeritus at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. I received my Bachelor of Arts from Fisk University, and a doctorate in history from Harvard University in 1941. I have studied, written, and taught extensively on the subjects of African-American history and race over the last several decades, and my work includes numerous books and hundreds of articles and speeches on these topics. I have also served as the head of the three major historical associations in the United States, and recently served as the Chairman of the Advisory Board to President Clinton's Initiative on Race.
My father was born in the Indian territory and grew up in Oklahoma. He lived through the Tulsa race riot in 1921. I moved to Tulsa when I was ten years old, just four years after the Tulsa riot, and witnessed first-hand the impact the riot had on Tulsa.
In addition to writing and teaching on the general subjects of African American history and race, I have also written and spoken specifically about the Tulsa riot and its long term effects on Tulsa. These perspectives are based on the personal experience of moving to Tulsa four years after the riot, and on my later work studying and considering history and race, which added a scholarly perspective to these personal experiences.
I observed and have concluded the 1921 riot had a devastating impact on Tulsa that lasted for decades. In my public statements and published work, I have recounted my view that a culture of silence and official negligence descended on the white community of Tulsa in the years after the riot, and persisted for several decades, and my view that in Tulsa's black community in the ensuing decades, after the economic and physical destruction of the riot, the difficulty of rebuilding, and the indifference or worse of the white community, a public silence among blacks also settled in, even while they privately remembered and feared the riot and its aftermath. For example, in the Report by the Oklahoma Commission to Study the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921 released in February 2001, I wrote an overview of the report with Scott Ellsworth in which we stated:
By any standard, the Tulsa race riot of 1921 is one of the great tragedies of Oklahoma history. Walter White, one of the nation's foremost experts on racial violence, who visited Tulsa during the week after the riot, was shocked by what had taken place. "I am able to state" he said, "that the Tulsa riot, in sheer brutality and willful destruction of life and property, stands without parallel in America."
Indeed, for a number of observers through the years, the term "riot" itself seems somehow inadequate to describe the violence and conflagration that took place. For some, what occurred in Tulsa on May 31 and June 1, 1921 was a massacre, a pogrom, or, to use a more modern term, an ethnic cleansing. For others, it was nothing short of a race war. But whatever terms is used, one thing is certain: when it was all over, Tulsa's African American district had been turned into a scorched wasteland of vacant lots, crumbling storefronts, burned churches, and blackened, leafless trees.
Like the Murrah Building bombing, the Tulsa riot would forever alter life in Oklahoma. . . . But unlike the Oklahoma City bombing, which has, to this day, remained a high profile event, for many years the Tulsa race riot practically disappeared from view. For decades afterwards, Oklahoma newspapers rarely mentioned the riot, the state's historical establishment essentially ignored it, and entire generations of Oklahoma school children were taught little or nothing about what had happened. To be sure, the riot was still a topic of conversation, particularly in Tulsa. But these discussions – whether among family or friends, in barber shops or on the front porch – were private affairs. And once the riot slipped from the headlines, its public memory also began to fade. Of course, any one who lived through the riot could never forget what had taken place. And in Tulsa's African American neighborhoods, the physical, psychological, and spiritual damage caused by the riot remained highly apparent for years. Indeed, even today there are places in the city where the scars of the riot can still be observed.
Similarly, I stated in a speech at a reconciliation service at Mt. Zion Baptist Church in Tulsa in 2000, that when I first moved to Tulsa four years after the riot, seeing "half-built buildings and churches reduced to basements, including Mt. Zion," were like the images I saw "in the aftermath of World War II bombing in Europe."
Although those churches were rebuilt, I have also noted that other, more insidious effects of the riot persisted: "One of the most profound effects [of the Riot] in the long run was what it did to the city. It robbed it of its honesty, and it sentenced it to 75 years of denial."
I have also stated to the Oklahoma Commission and in other instances that any reparation to the victims of the riot "is a mere pittance compared to the three-quarters of a century of suffering of the victims of the looting, burning, killing, and bombing, as so many endured."
I have also expressed my view that we still have much to learn from the riot, because to learn from events such as the riot, these events must be confronted and dealt with, and Tulsa, like other places in which violent racial incidences have occurred, has never dealt honestly with what happened, and because of this failure, the city and its black community in particular has simply never recovered from the event.
None of this is inconsistent with the view I expressed in the foreword to Scott Ellsworth's book, Death in a Promised Land, in which I said that immediately after the riot, there was a spirit, born no doubt of dire necessity, of people picking themselves up and rebuilding, instead of dwelling on the horror and destruction. In stating that people had high self-esteem in the period after the riot, I also said this was as a result of myths and beliefs that people developed as a means of coping with the riot and moving on.
In addition, while it is true that there was a sort of "bouncing back" period in Tulsa immediately after the riot – which is why the churches that had been reduced to basements were eventually rebuilt – this does not describe the long-term effects of the riot, which were, in my view, negative, devastating, and persistent to this day. My belief in the negative, long-term effects of the riot has grown in the years since Ellsworth's book was published, as I have learned more about the riot, have visited Tulsa, and had more time to reflect on the riot's impact.
I believe in the long-term, the riot has cast a pall over the city, and has made it feel half-dead even today. Prior to the riot, the black community in Tulsa had been economically prosperous, not to mention spiritually and physically cohesive and strong. The riot was economically devastating, and given the lack of assistance and almost absolute segregation that existed for decades after the riot, people were not able to recover economically. The combination of circumstances that existed after the riot made it impossible for blacks in Tulsa to live as upstanding and fearless citizens even if they initially tried to do so. People did not just lose their homes and businesses, they seemed eventually to lose part of their dreams and their will, at least as a group. Thus while I believe there was a period of approximately ten years in which people made their best effort to rebuild, and revitalize their community educationally and socially, eventually, given the economic devastation, and the persistent and complete separation and indifference of the white community, a pall of discouragement set in among the black community. And because the city has never honestly confronted what happened, that pall persists to this day.
quote:
The Act would extend the statute of limitations to allow the victims of the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921 to sue for damages
Who should they sue for damages? Most of the responsible parties died long ago...
Will taking money from individuals who had nothing to do with the riots (and are in fact, ashamed and saddened by them) and giving it to descendants of victims who may or may not even remember the race riots somehow solve the socioeconomic disparities between North and South Tulsa?
Our time and money can be better spent.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
The Act would extend the statute of limitations to allow the victims of the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921 to sue for damages
Who should they sue for damages? Most of the responsible parties died long ago...
Will taking money from individuals who had nothing to do with the riots (and are in fact, ashamed and saddened by them) and giving it to descendants of victims who may or may not even remember the race riots somehow solve the socioeconomic disparities between North and South Tulsa?
Our time and money can be better spent.
I think this is something that should be discussed. At the least, I think more should be written and learned about what happened and we should be made to face the history and learn from it. It should be in the history books for what it was. I personally don't even know what the extent of the damage was and I went to public school in Eastern Oklahoma.
quote:
I think this is something that should be discussed. At the least, I think more should be written and learned about what happened and we should be made to face the history and learn from it.
What do you mean, "face the history?" I have no problem with education about this terrible event, but if you mean making token gestures that make you feel better, but do little good for the parties involved, I disagree.
quote:
It should be in the history books for what it was. I personally don't even know what the extent of the damage was and I went to public school in Eastern Oklahoma.
Google returns 61,600 hits on the exact phrase "tulsa race riot." Google Scholar returns at least 150 journals that talk about the race riots. What more would you like to see?
This whole thing can be summed up by considering who is actively involved with that bill: John Conyers and Jerrold Nadler, Michigan and New York reps who apparetnly are more concerned about what is happening in Oklahoma than in their own districts.
Apparently they believe Oklahoma tort victims need a special, unique statute of limitations--which goes to your point, IP.
Maybe more has been done since I have left school. I'm not claiming to have any answers. It just seems like those in power back in those days did a decent job about keeping the situation out of the public conscience. I mean, come on, I grew up in Oklahoma and I know VERY LITTLE about the whole thing. More education and discussion is all I am looking for. I don't have a clue about what should be done if anything. I just want to learn more and see what other people know. I think it should be more well known as a horrible event in American History. All I know is that it is famous for not being well known...and yes, that is an oxymoron.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
I think this is something that should be discussed. At the least, I think more should be written and learned about what happened and we should be made to face the history and learn from it.
What do you mean, "face the history?" I have no problem with education about this terrible event, but if you mean making token gestures that make you feel better, but do little good for the parties involved, I disagree.
quote:
It should be in the history books for what it was. I personally don't even know what the extent of the damage was and I went to public school in Eastern Oklahoma.
Google returns 61,600 hits on the exact phrase "tulsa race riot." Google Scholar returns at least 150 journals that talk about the race riots. What more would you like to see?
At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots. A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well.
Oh jeez, not this tired old canard again [V]
Swake "At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots. A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well."
I am sure that building a memorial and hand outs will lift the "black community in Tulsa" into economic prosperity, as well as make those white persons living in Tulsa feel all better because the sins of our great grandparents have been redeemed.
On second thought, spend your own money on this gesture, Swake.
[V][V]
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Swake "At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots. A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well."
I am sure that building a memorial and hand outs will lift the "black community in Tulsa" into economic prosperity, as well as make those white persons living in Tulsa feel all better because the sins of our great grandparents have been redeemed.
On second thought, spend your own money on this gesture, Swake.
No jackass, a memorial mean the pains of your forefathers is not forgotten or ignored, it's important.
I think to save money, TUlsa should build a riot/trail of tears/immigration memorial. it would be forward thinking seeing as how we'll someday have to feel guilty about illegal immigration too.
ratio of enlightened to un, 2:8. that figures to 25% which is about right for Tulsa.
actually, in the spirit of saving money, tulsa should just build a 'General Guilt Memorial'. that way anyone and anything that feels guilty about something can go down to the memorial and ponder about it.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Swake "At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots. A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well."
I am sure that building a memorial and hand outs will lift the "black community in Tulsa" into economic prosperity, as well as make those white persons living in Tulsa feel all better because the sins of our great grandparents have been redeemed.
On second thought, spend your own money on this gesture, Swake.
No jackass, a memorial mean the pains of your forefathers is not forgotten or ignored, it's important.
Nice try Swake, but don't you change the subject. You wrote:
At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a
public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots.
A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well.
Emphasis mine.
This post was plainly about acknowledgement/acceptance of fault, apology, and reparations. Your effort to turn that post into something noble is bs.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Swake "At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots. A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well."
I am sure that building a memorial and hand outs will lift the "black community in Tulsa" into economic prosperity, as well as make those white persons living in Tulsa feel all better because the sins of our great grandparents have been redeemed.
On second thought, spend your own money on this gesture, Swake.
How about a giant fire pit in the middle of Bartlet Square for all these cause seekers to jump into?
We could charge them all 5 bucks and use the money to build a better Tulsa, or at least a parking garage for the new BOK Arena!
......just think of all the possibilities Swake! [8D]
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Swake "At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots. A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well."
I am sure that building a memorial and hand outs will lift the "black community in Tulsa" into economic prosperity, as well as make those white persons living in Tulsa feel all better because the sins of our great grandparents have been redeemed.
On second thought, spend your own money on this gesture, Swake.
How about a giant fire pit in the middle of Bartlet Square for all these cause seekers to jump into?
We could charge them all 5 bucks and use the money to build a better Tulsa, or at least a parking garage for the new BOK Arena! [8D]
Yikes...
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Swake "At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots. A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well."
I am sure that building a memorial and hand outs will lift the "black community in Tulsa" into economic prosperity, as well as make those white persons living in Tulsa feel all better because the sins of our great grandparents have been redeemed.
On second thought, spend your own money on this gesture, Swake.
How about a giant fire pit in the middle of Bartlet Square for all these cause seekers to jump into?
We could charge them all 5 bucks and use the money to build a better Tulsa, or at least a parking garage for the new BOK Arena!
......just think of all the possibilities Swake! [8D]
that gets my vote.
No, it's now talked about extensively in Tulsa schools. It's talked about ad-nauseum. I'm sad that it happened, but we all know and are all ready to move on. That's part of the healing process.
The problem with North Tulsa is the perception of North Tulsa, which isn't improved by the mentality of North Tulsans. Action needs to start in North Tulsa before North Tulsa will be perceived differently.
In the initial order from Judge Ellison dismissing the case, he correctly recognized that the information necessary to litigate any claims surfaced as far back as the 1960's or 1970's (I forget which).
That being the case, coupled with the two-year statute of limitations, the notion that survivors' claims are "revived" after the discovery of any and every piece of evidence regarding the race riots would have the untenable result of never having any meaningful limitations period at all.
Perhaps King Tut's decedents should have a cause of action against the Egyptian government as successor's in interest to the Pharaoh's dynasty based on CT scans performed on the mummified body in 2005 so the Egyptian courts can decide whether the holes in the skull resulted from murder or the embalmers.
It's over. Move on.
jackbristow=HomeTown.....
Could we have a show of hands? How many of you live north of Admiral and are of black heritage?
btw, changing it to a North/South thing was pretty slick. Just because the riot occurred in North Tulsa doesn't mean it was geographic in nature. Otherwise we should look for West Tulsa to kick the rest of the city's butt pretty soon.
quote:
The problem with North Tulsa is the perception of North Tulsa that people of the same race are offing one another at a record pace.
Fixed that for you.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Could we have a show of hands? How many of you live north of Admiral and are of black heritage?
btw, changing it to a North/South thing was pretty slick. Just because the riot occurred in North Tulsa doesn't mean it was geographic in nature. Otherwise we should look for West Tulsa to kick the rest of the city's butt pretty soon.
Why...because most of the militia minded billy bob's live west of the river?
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Could we have a show of hands? How many of you live north of Admiral and are of black heritage?
btw, changing it to a North/South thing was pretty slick. Just because the riot occurred in North Tulsa doesn't mean it was geographic in nature. Otherwise we should look for West Tulsa to kick the rest of the city's butt pretty soon.
Why...because most of the militia minded billy bob's live west of the river?
No, those guys are mostly around Keystone, Osage county, Creek county and Inola. Because, like a mushroom, its kept in the dark, largely ignored until ready to be consumed. Then its scrubbed up, sliced up, sauteed and served with dinner.[;)]
Mmmmm....Redneck...it's what's for dinner.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Swake "At the very least a memorial and center that presents both a public acknowledgment of the riots and the history of the riots. A small stipend to the few remaining survivors would be a welcome gesture as well."
I am sure that building a memorial and hand outs will lift the "black community in Tulsa" into economic prosperity, as well as make those white persons living in Tulsa feel all better because the sins of our great grandparents have been redeemed.
On second thought, spend your own money on this gesture, Swake.
When the most respected black historian in entire United States says we have not done enough, we should listen.
When that man also happens to be from Tulsa, is a Booker T Washington High School graduate that was raised in the community impacted by the riot. We should listen very carefully.
A memorial and history center is a public acknowledgement of the event. Why are you so offended by in the suggestion that we should embrace all of our history, good and bad? There is no need for blame any longer, but there is need to stop hiding from the past.
We have a memorial to the victims of the Murrah building, and that memorial is important, very important to the survivors and to Oklahoma City. It was an important part of the healing process for Oklahoma City.
The Race riot was a massive tragedy on a completely different scale than the Murrah building. Dozens, maybe hundreds dead, we don't know and really have not done much to try to find out. Many thousands left homeless and jobless. An entire section of the city leveled not by some natural tragedy, but by hate. And there is nothing to even mark that it happened, just an empty field next to a highway.
I have a capital idea:
Let's give black Tulsan's sovereign land rights on an area like a reservation, build them a monument, casino, hotel, and golf course and let them get even with the white man by ripping him off one pull at a time on the slot machines.
Wow. Nevermind. You guys are obviously very cynical and small minded and would prefer for this tragedy to just remain swept under the rug and ignored. I get it.
For those who lived through this event though, their story deserves to be told and they deserve more than to be forgotten and ignored.
You people are cold, cynical, heartless and selfish. That is the impression you have given.
I agree that we should do all we can to keep the story from being lost. I also agree that its time to move on. I grew up in Oklahoma and lived in Tulsa a year as an adult before I had even heard of the riots. I hear a similar response from most of my cohort. The riots were not all that long ago and North Tulsa is still suffering. I think the city should help to start a foundation and commit a little of our improvement funds (hopefully encouraging donations with events at the Jazz Depot and such) that could be focused on improving the North Tulsa community, with a focus on the Greenwood district. We can't keep letting it haunt us, but it isn't going to just go away. We need to act decent and do something positive to acknowledge what happened.
quote:
For those who lived through this event though
That's exactly what I'm trying to get across to you. Those people lived through this tragendy, on both sides, are now long gone... A day late and a dollar short to be giving reparations to people in North Tulsa thinking this will somehow solve something.
Education about the riots is one thing, but blaming current maladies in North Tulsa on a lack of understanding about those riots (even when it's been shown that there is an abundance of information on the topic) seems to be misguided.
You may be right that people are uninformed about the riots, but it's not from a lack of available information. I'm sure if you talked with the parties involved in the latest murder de joure in North Tulsa, they probably don't know that there were even race riots in Tulsa, but I hardly doubt it has any effect on their activities. Do you think paying them money will alleviate the crime?
quote:
When the most respected black historian in entire United States says we have not done enough, we should listen.
Wow. How does one get this title?
It's not accurate to claim that somehow Tulsa and Oklahoma are ignoring the race riot.
The state did an exhaustive investigative report a few years ago:
http://www.ok-history.mus.ok.us/trrc/freport.htm
I was in Illinois when all of this was being discussed. Believe me, the stuff about the Tulsa Race Riot was nationwide.
Also, it's not like people are sweeping it under the rug now. Rep. John Sullivan vigorously advocated a memorial just a few months ago.
Perhaps many Tulsans tried to sweep it under the rug in previous decades -- mostly because of shame, I suspect. I don't support that, but I can certainly understand it. It was a shameful episode in American history, not just Tulsa's. There were race riots and lynchings all over the country during the late teens up until about World War II, when those sorts of awful things started to decline drastically, thank God.
But to say Tulsa is ignoring the race riots in recent years and now is wrong. We are discussing it, correct? That's hardly what I would call "ignoring" it.
RW: It is not good enough to remember it or discuss it. We (as persons who not even born yet) have to mourn it. We (as persons who were not even born yet) have to live its memory every day. We (as persons who were not even born yet) have to apologize for it. We (as persons who were not even born yet) have to give free money to people (who were not even born yet). We have to beg forgiveness for it happening. If we do not, according to Jack, we are "heartless and selfish."
Swake: I have no problem with a memorial, but that is not what you were saying earlier in this thread and you know it. You are backpedaling because you have been exposed as a reparations advocate.
Have you guys been over to the Greenwood Center and seen the room filled with framed pictures and articles about the 1921 Race Riot?
We went there as part of our Leadership Tulsa training. It was very moving. I have had other events in that room and have read a book by Hannibal Johnson about the event as well.
I have always known about the riot. My mother discussed it with us as children back when she was a reporter at the Oklahoma Eagle. I am kind of amazed when I meet people who have lived here a long time and know nothing about it.
Does anyone know what started the riot? Were there any events that led up to or incited it? I've lived in Tulsa all my life and know very little about the particulars of the devastating event, other than there was a riot.
Jack Bristow, Thank you for bringing this issue to the front burner.
I would say that repairing the damage caused by the Riot is No. 1 on Tulsa's Karmic "To Do" list.
About two years ago I participated in a thread here at TulsaNow about the riot that was a great learning experience for me.
One of the things that I learned was that there were Whites in Tulsa who tried to shelter and protect Blacks during the riot.
Since returning to Tulsa I have also seen a memorial to the victims in the Greenwood area. The chief donor to the memorial was a local oil man and his wife -- Helmerich.
We have a horrible Republican congressman here named Sullivan who has, as far as I can tell, done one thing right in his life. I'm short on details but he is attempting or has obtained some federal money for a memorial.
Unfortunately, even though this forum has recently seemed to trend to the far right, there are people in Tulsa who agree with you, but not enough to hit a critical mass.
I hope you will continue to post and participate. You bringing this issue to our attention again is a small step in the right direction.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Wow. How does one get this title?
This is how:
John Hope Franklin is the James B. Duke Professor Emeritus of History, and for seven years was Professor of Legal History in the Law School at Duke University. He is a native of Oklahoma and a graduate of Fisk University. He received the A.M. and Ph.D. degrees in history from Harvard University. He has taught at a number of institutions, including Fisk University, St. Augustine's College, North Carolina Central University, and Howard University. In 1956 he went to Brooklyn College as Chairman of the Department of History; and in 1964, he joined the faculty of the University of Chicago, serving as Chairman of the Department of History from 1967 to 1970. At Chicago, he was the John Matthews Manly Distinguished Service Professor from 1969 to 1982, when he became Professor Emeritus.
Professor Franklin's numerous publications include The Emancipation Proclamation, The Militant South, The Free Negro in North Carolina, Reconstruction After the Civil War, and A Southern Odyssey: Travelers in the Ante-bellum North. Perhaps his best known book is From Slavery to Freedom: A History of African-Americans, now in its seventh edition. His Jefferson Lecture in the Humanities for 1976 was published in 1985 and received the Clarence L. Holte Literary Prize for that year. In 1990, a collection of essays covering a teaching and writing career of fifty years, was published under the title, Race and History: Selected Essays, 1938-1988. In 1993, he published The Color Line: Legacy for the Twenty-first Century. Professor Franklin's most recent book, My Life and an Era: The Autobiography of Buck Colbert Franklin, is an autobiography of his father that he edited with his son, John Whittington Franklin. His current research deals with "Dissidents on the Plantation: Runaway Slaves."
Professor Franklin has been active in numerous professional and education organizations. For many years he has served on the editorial board of the Journal of Negro History. He has also served as President of the following organizations: The American Studies Association (1967), the Southern Historical Association (1970), the United Chapters of Phi Beta Kappa (1973-76), the Organization of American Historians (1975), and the American Historical Association (1979). He has been a member of the Board of Trustees of Fisk University, the Chicago Public Library, and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Association.
Professor Franklin has served on many national commissions and delegations, including the National Council on the Humanities, from which he resigned in 1979, when the President appointed him to the Advisory Commission on Public Diplomacy. He has also served on the President's Advisory Commission on Ambassadorial Appointments. In September and October of 1980, he was a United States delegate to the 21st General Conference of UNESCO. Among many other foreign assignments, Dr. Franklin has served as Pitt Professor of American History and Institutions at Cambridge University, Consultant on American Education in the Soviet Union, Fulbright Professor in Australia, and Lecturer in American History in the People's Republic of China. Currently, Professor Franklin serves as chairman of the advisory board for One America: The President's Initiative on Race.
Professor Franklin has been the recipient of many honors. In 1978, Who's Who in America selected Dr. Franklin as one of eight Americans who has made significant contributions to society. In the same year, he was elected to the Oklahoma Hall of Fame. He also received the Jefferson Medal for 1984, awarded by the Council for the Advancement and Support of Education. In 1989, he was the first recipient of the Cleanth Brooks Medal of the Fellowship of Southern Writers, and in 1990 received the Encyclopedia Britannica Gold Medal for the Dissemination of Knowledge. In 1993, Dr. Franklin received the Charles Frankel Prize for contributions to the humanities, and in 1994, the Cosmos Club Award and the Trumpet Award from Turner Broadcasting Corporation. In 1995, he received the first W.E.B. DuBois Award from the Fisk University Alumni Association, the Organization of American Historians' Award for Outstanding Achievement, the Alpha Phi Alpha Award of Merit, the NAACP's Spingarn Medal, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom. In 1996, Professor Franklin was elected to the Oklahoma Historians Hall of Frame and in 1997 he received the Peggy V. Helmerich Distinguished Author Award. In addition to his many awards, Dr. Franklin has received honorary degrees from more than one hundred colleges and universities.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Jack Bristow, Thank you for bringing this issue to the front burner.
I would say that repairing the damage caused by the Riot is No. 1 on Tulsa's Karmic "To Do" list.
Why? No more love for the Native Americans? Hatemonger...you think a few casinos and smoke shops can repair the damage inflicted on my people by Oklahomans. Dream on; I wants my money.
quote:
We have a horrible Republican congressman here named Sullivan who has, as far as I can tell, done one thing right in his life. I'm short on details but he is attempting or has obtained some federal money for a memorial.
Of course. You're only marginally clear on the details when you want to bash him, why should we expect anything different.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
.... of Southern Writers, and in 1990 received the Encyclopedia Britannica Gold Medal for the Dissemination of Knowledge. In 1993, Dr. Franklin received the Charles Frankel Prize for contributions to the humanities, and in 1994, the Cosmos Club Award and the Trumpet Award from Turner Broadcasting Corporation. In 1995, he received the first W.E.B. DuBois Award from the Fisk University Alumni Association, the Organization of American Historians' Award for Outstanding Achievement, the Alpha Phi Alpha Award of Merit, the NAACP's Spingarn Medal, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom. In 1996, Professor Franklin was elected to the Oklahoma Historians Hall of Frame and in 1997 he received the Peggy V. Helmerich Distinguished Author Award. In addition to his many awards, Dr. Franklin has received honorary degrees from more than one hundred colleges and universities.
My comment was made in jest...I thought that was clear enough, please depress your literal button. I respect him for what he has accomplished, but his request for reparations holds no merit. No request for reparations does, for any oppressed group. Reparations solve nothing.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
RW: We (as persons who were not even born yet) have to give free money to people (who were not even born yet). We have to beg forgiveness for it happening. If we do not, according to Jack, we are "heartless and selfish."
Woah Woah Woah everybody...geez...talk about taking something and misconstruing what I said. What I said was:
"For those who
lived through this event though, their
story deserves to be told and they
deserve more than to be forgotten and ignored."
Where do you get that I advocate paying anyone ANYTHING...especially anyone who was not alive then. Reading comprehension people. Reading comprehension. Try to understand what someone is saying rather than jump to ridiculous conclusions.
Read some of the posts that were on here arguing with Swake. They ARE cold and heartless. All I wanted to do was open discussion about what COULD be done or what has been done that I am unaware of. I don't claim to have any answers. A memorial would be a good idea in my opinion though.
Reparations to the general population of North Tulsa is stupid and I never meant for anyone to think that and that topic is wasting most of this thread.
Reparations to any SURVIVORS who lived through it might be warranted. Some might still be around you know...A 90 year old would have been 10 at that time and may have seen his parents lynched. Who knows? A memorial with names of the victims would seem good to me.
quote:
Originally posted by jackbristow
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
RW: We (as persons who were not even born yet) have to give free money to people (who were not even born yet). We have to beg forgiveness for it happening. If we do not, according to Jack, we are "heartless and selfish."
Woah Woah Woah everybody...geez...talk about taking something and misconstruing what I said. What I said was:
"For those who lived through this event though, their story deserves to be told and they deserve more than to be forgotten and ignored."
Where do you get that I advocate paying anyone ANYTHING...especially anyone who was not alive then. Reading comprehension people. Reading comprehension. Try to understand what someone is saying rather than jump to ridiculous conclusions.
Read some of the posts that were on here arguing with Swake. They ARE cold and heartless. All I wanted to do was open discussion about what COULD be done or what has been done that I am unaware of. I don't claim to have any answers. A memorial would be a good idea in my opinion though.
Reparations to the general population of North Tulsa is stupid and I never meant for anyone to think that and that topic is wasting most of this thread.
Reparations to any SURVIVORS who lived through it might be warranted. Some might still be around you know...A 90 year old would have been 10 at that time and may have seen his parents lynched. Who knows? A memorial with names of the victims would seem good to me.
Your selective parsing out what you previously posted is not going unnoticed. This is what you said:
Wow. Nevermind. You guys are obviously very cynical and small minded and would prefer for this tragedy to just remain swept under the rug and ignored. I get it.
For those who lived through this event though, their story deserves to be told and they deserve more than to be forgotten and ignored.
You people are cold, cynical, heartless and selfish. That is the impression you have given.
Maybe you should work on your "reading comprehension" before lecturing us on what we missed.
I think his characterization of the responses was correct. Even though a few more people responded, the ratio remains the same. About 25% of Tulsans don't have a clue as to why a memorial is necessary or even what really happened just 85 years ago. The children and grand children of both sides of the riot are still living. If you were on the winning side you are still benefitting. The losers are not.
Guido, are you white and carrying an AK47? Maybe you could help with that bonfire in Bartlett square that cause seekers will be jumping into. See, others can be insensitive too.
Reparations, to an extent, have been meted out. Not necessarily in response to the race riots but in re-developing the Greenwood District back in the late '80's. TEDC- Tulsa Economic Development Corp, as I recall, worked closely with the re-development of the area and helped incubate small businesses in the district. I worked with the merchants association back in the early '90's a little bit on some advertising and PR and learned a little about the interrelationship between TEDC and the GBD. I don't recall all the details now, but it was a good program, similar to SBA.
Other projects have been done and just wind up not being economically viable or wind up in disrepair, are vandalized, or just flat stolen from- look at the nice new Albertson's at Pine & Peoria which will be shuttered because it's ostensibly not economically viable. Apparently the local community doesn't appreciate the addition to the area, otherwise either Reasor's or Price Cutter (or whatever chain it is) would have purchased it in their package.
I get a little lot cynical when we dig back into the past and need to create memorials for every single mis-deed of mankind. I read the comments of some posters and I feel they want me to feel guilty for being a white man who has experienced some semblance of success in my life. My family didn't move to Tulsa until more than 40 years after the riots, why should I share in a reparation for something my family had nothing to do with?
Where do you stop with commemorating the cruelty and stupidity with which certain sectors of the human race have treated other sectors? To me that's not moving forward.
BTW- jackbristow, you opened a huge can of worms on this forum. I know you couldn't have expected this big a turn-out on your topic, but this is a very sensitive issue amongst Tulsans and we have some of the most passionate Tulsans on this forum. The title of your topic is pretty inflamatory since many of us believe we've faced the truth over and over.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Your selective parsing out what you previously posted is not going unnoticed. This is what you said:
Wow. Nevermind. You guys are obviously very cynical and small minded and would prefer for this tragedy to just remain swept under the rug and ignored. I get it.
For those who lived through this event though, their story deserves to be told and they deserve more than to be forgotten and ignored.
You people are cold, cynical, heartless and selfish. That is the impression you have given.
Maybe you should work on your "reading comprehension" before lecturing us on what we missed.
And where in the part that I left out did I say anything about paying reparations to people who didn't live back then???? I left it out because it was irrelevant to whether I viewed people who didn't live then deserved anything for it.
Perhaps I was a little harsh and judgmental myself when I wrote all that, so I'll step up and apologize for throwing out those strong words. Do you think these guys will do the same?
quote:
Originally posted by PorkyHow about a giant fire pit in the middle of Bartlet Square for all these cause seekers to jump into?
We could charge them all 5 bucks and use the money to build a better Tulsa, or at least a parking garage for the new BOK Arena!
quote:
Originally posted by intellerthat gets my vote.
Your attack style over this junk is sabotaging this thread. I have been very clear about what my views are and what I mean by everything. Please address the intention of the posts.
I was confused about how this whole thing got so far off topic so I looked back. Apparently all you guys spewing venom are doing so because you think I support reparations to "North Tulsa" for the riots and a public apology. I think this stems from my 1st response to ip when I said that "I think this is something that should be discussed." That one sentence got all you jumping out of your chairs. I wasn't talking about suing or paying anybody anything. I was talking about the riots and how I thought the riots and options for doing something about them would be good for discussion on this board. I am on the fence and open to what people say. I am uneducated on the subject, saw this presentation that I posted and hoped to learn something. I'm learning something, but Guido and his crew aren't contributing by attacking and jumping all over people for misunderstandings.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Wow. How does one get this title?
Have you never heard of John Hope Franklin?
Maybe it would be wise the next time you quote someone if you make it abundantly clear to everyone what parts of the quotation you do, and do not, agree with. Mr. Franklin's quotation clearly speaks of suing for damages and reparations. How are we to know that you aren't in favor of such things when you are the one who quoted Mr. Franklin...
Your OP gave the impression that you implicitly agreed with the statements of Mr. Franklin. Post rediculous articles about reparations and lawsuits for damages and expect to get fairly curt responses from most rational people...
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Wow. How does one get this title?
Have you never heard of John Hope Franklin?
Again, it's safe to depress your "literal" button....the comment was clearly made in jest, but in the future I shall use [sarcasm][/sarcasm] just to be safe. BTW, it's a Seinfeld reference for anyone interested.
WB: Weren't you complaining just yesterday about not being able to post during work hours? Anyway, being a transplanted Oklahoman, should I assume to have benefited indirectly from the riots and therefore pay reparations?
Jack: I do not know where I got cross ways with you since I again have no objection to a memorial. BTW, there has been recent redevelopment of Greenwood and I thought there was a Tulsa race riot memorial.
Here are some links:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3812/is_200107/ai_n8961472
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:InEYS956STUJ:chronicle.com/weekly/v47/i44/44a02203.htm+%22negro+wall+street%22+tulsa&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=30&gl=us
What sets me off is when a good idea like a memorial to a historically significant tragedy turns into reparations of any kind. I am against reparations because they are inherently racially divisive and counter productive. My opinion is not cynicism or because I am heartless.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Maybe it would be wise the next time you quote someone if you make it abundantly clear to everyone what parts of the quotation you do, and do not, agree with. Mr. Franklin's quotation clearly speaks of suing for damages and reparations. How are we to know that you aren't in favor of such things when you are the one who quoted Mr. Franklin...
Your OP gave the impression that you implicitly agreed with the statements of Mr. Franklin. Post rediculous articles about reparations and lawsuits for damages and expect to get fairly curt responses from most rational people...
You're right. When I looked back at the 1st post I made that included his presentation to Congress, it did look like I was supporting everything he said. My bad. I hoped to use it to spur conversation and to learn something. Mission accomplished I guess, but not exactly like I expected.
I don't know if I support reparations, a memorial, history center, etc. or not. All seem like they might be a good thing, (reparations being to those who lived through it or were directly affected by it...NOT en masse), but I am not going out and pushing for them. I wanted to hear views from both sides with reasons why or why not.
Just for giggles. What does "honest confrontation" look like to people who agree with the OP?
What would a memorial honestly do to help change the face of North Tulsa? For me, I don't really have an objection to one, but to think it's somehow going to change the status quo in North Tulsa. The culture of violence in North Tulsa mirrors every other large city in the US...most of them never had a riot.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
What sets me off is when a good idea like a memorial to a historically significant tragedy turns into reparations of any kind. I am against reparations because they are inherently racially divisive and counter productive. My opinion is not cynicism or because I am heartless.
Excellent points. Thank you. And I apologize for getting this thing started in a way that was so confusing.
Please keep this topic heading back in a civil direction or it will be locked.
quote:
Originally posted by ttownclown
Does anyone know what started the riot? Were there any events that led up to or incited it? I've lived in Tulsa all my life and know very little about the particulars of the devastating event, other than there was a riot.
Here is some interesting reading on what started it.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_Race_Riot (//%22http://%22)
http://www.rootsweb.com/~oktulsa/riot.htm (//%22http://%22)
http://www.tulsalibrary.org/aarc/riot/riot.htm (//%22http://%22)
In the one from Wikipedia, there is a comment thatwhat fueld things most was the headlines from the Tulsa Tribune.
I did some research on this subject and the Klan when I was in high school back in 1980. I found it very interesting that when looking for articles on microfilm at the downtown library, that the papers that were microfilmed had been conviniently edited by tearing out the aricles at some point in time in both the Tribune and World news papers that came out in the days following the riot.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
WB: Weren't you complaining just yesterday about not being able to post during work hours? Anyway, being a transplanted Oklahoman, should I assume to have benefited indirectly from the riots and therefore pay reparations?
Did you think that was complaining? Jealous for sure. If you have to know, I don't get lunch til around 2:30-3:00pm and work late into the evening. As far as reparations you're not going to drag me into that area. A memorial is suitable, we have them for the civil war, the trail of tears, and lots of other human catastrophes. To ignore the riot with no memorial would say a lot.
I was simply making note that there are people living in my hood who benefitted from their parents & grandparents' positions during that riot. Often overlooked was that the riot may have been executed by racists but was the result of economic and social changes of the time. If a prosperous area like Greenwood had been allowed to continue their growth, the downtown and near south businessmen stood to lose a lot of business and butler/maid service. My modest home built in 1919 has servants quarters. Throw in the new confidence of the returning WWI soldiers who had fought for the country and were not taking any bs from whitey and you had the makings of a fine little riot.
Note that nearby Alsuma which was a black community near 51st and Mingo posed no such threat to the businessmen and was thus left alone. If you live south of 21st it is likely your home may not have been as valuable today if the rich white folks had decided to continue moving North as they did before the riots. Gilcrease hills would have been our Southern Hills. Tulsa Country club would have been hosting the PGA.
On a better note, Paramount Pictures has interest in Filming a Movie here in Tulsa about the Riots. They are talking with an independent film company as well as some major Actors who as well have expressed a lot of interest.
More info to come soon. Look it up.
quote:
Originally posted by bugo
On a better note, Paramount Pictures has interest in Filming a Movie here in Tulsa about the Riots. They are talking with an independent film company as well as some major Actors who as well have expressed a lot of interest.
More info to come soon. Look it up.
it won't fly. Movies of that era never do well at the box office.
Hollywood made a movie about the Rosewood riot about ten years ago that I thought was pretty good.
Yeah, like "The Untouchables" was a big flop or something. [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Yeah, like "The Untouchables" was a big flop or something. [}:)]
untouchables 1930s, race riot 1921...two different fish.
Anyone who is still alive that had a hand in the race riot - corrupt police, politicians, or citizens that partook in the rampage (black or white) should be forced to pay those who suffered damages in the race riot (black or white).
My guess is all the responsible parties are dead (most authority figures would have been in their 40's = 120 today. Most participants at least in their 20's = 85+ years today) and most victims have suffered the same fate.
So why take money from people who committed no offense and give it to people who suffered no harm? Some of my ancestors were not even in this country, none were near Oklahoma. And who gets the money? All black people, or only those aggrieved? Certainly there was some white people who were not involved but whom the black community punished somehow during the mele.
Perhaps we should dig up the corpses of responsible parties and pull out their gold fillings and pilfer their wedding rings and stick them into the graves of the injured parties. Would that make you feel any better? Because it would do just as much good as a handout.
Reparations a generation later serve no useful purpose. Likewise, 85 years should be enough time for a community to rebuild itself. And finally, a memorial us usually built but those that wish to remember. If it is important to the black Tulsa community to have a memorial - perhaps they should take a lead in this area and get on the news for that (instead of gang wars, drug arrests, and drive bys).
I really don't think it matters what color your skin is, but if a community manages to keep you down for close to 100 years and you have the freedom to do so - you should damn well leave.
dbacks fan,
Thank you for posting the links to resources on the riot. As stated, the history of the riot is well documented and well-publicized. Just because any single individual on this forum hasn't heard much about it doesn't mean there isn't plenty of information available for anyone interested in it.
The Riot is a significant event in Tulsa's history and, as with any significant event, had a role in creating the city as it is today. A memorial commemorating any important historical event is appropriate and can be educational and instructive to visitors and future generations.
As to reparations, in June 2001, the "1921 Tulsa Race Riot Reconciliation Act" passed by the Oklahoma state legislature provided for 300+ college scholarships for descendants of Greenwood residents. SO inessence some reparations have already been made, and providing educational opportunities seem to me to be the most appropriate ones that could have possibly been made.
I also personally think a well-made movie on the subject from a director like Roland Joffe or Bruce Beresford, who have shown they can sensitively and fairly handle period pieces, could be very good. There is plenty of opportunity to show both the best and worst of human behavior, by both blacks and whites, in the story. It might not be a blockbuster, but done right it could certainly make for the kind of film usually released in the Fall that gets Oscar attention.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Anyone who is still alive that had a hand in the race riot - corrupt police, politicians, or citizens that partook in the rampage (black or white) should be forced to pay those who suffered damages in the race riot (black or white).
My guess is all the responsible parties are dead (most authority figures would have been in their 40's = 120 today. Most participants at least in their 20's = 85+ years today) and most victims have suffered the same fate.
So why take money from people who committed no offense and give it to people who suffered no harm? Some of my ancestors were not even in this country, none were near Oklahoma. And who gets the money? All black people, or only those aggrieved? Certainly there was some white people who were not involved but whom the black community punished somehow during the mele.
Perhaps we should dig up the corpses of responsible parties and pull out their gold fillings and pilfer their wedding rings and stick them into the graves of the injured parties. Would that make you feel any better? Because it would do just as much good as a handout.
Reparations a generation later serve no useful purpose. Likewise, 85 years should be enough time for a community to rebuild itself. And finally, a memorial us usually built but those that wish to remember. If it is important to the black Tulsa community to have a memorial - perhaps they should take a lead in this area and get on the news for that (instead of gang wars, drug arrests, and drive bys).
I really don't think it matters what color your skin is, but if a community manages to keep you down for close to 100 years and you have the freedom to do so - you should damn well leave.
Your post is disgusting. Truly.
Remember the entire black community was destroyed with the help of city government and the survivors got no assistance, no insurance payments, nothing. Armed whites marched into and burned north Tulsa. This was not a race riot like we saw in the 1960s, it was an assault and a massacre on the black part of the city by some of the white residents.
There was only one building left standing in north Tulsa. Just one building left standing in a community of thousands of people. That's a harm that extended well beyond 1921. It should also be considered that Jim Crow laws and Segregation existed here until the 1950s, that schools were not integrated fully until the 1970s.
This thread makes obvious that we have much further to go in race relations and in acting in a moral way towards our fellow human beings of any race than I had thought. It makes me sad to see so care for your fellow humans. The north side is not all gangs and drive by shootings. Your stereotype is wrong and telling.
"I didn't do it, it wasn't me, I don't wanna have to pay for anything and screw them if they can't help themselves" This is what you are saying.
Think about if your entire region of the city was burned to the ground, many of the friends and relatives dead and injured. The rest of the city is sealed off from you because of your race and you get no help in rebuilding. If this was your grandfather this had happened to, how would you feel?
I am not for payments to anyone except survivors, but survivors would include people born into the community in the years just after the riots, before the north side was rebuilt. It's not about guilt, it's not about race, it's not about solving the problems of the north side, it's about that this is the right thing to do.
Okay Swake. Since it weighs heavy on you, do you spend money up in the GBD other than when festivals are in the area? Do you patronize businesses in north Tulsa, especially mom-n-pops? Donate to the UNCF?
What really, will additional reparations accomplish? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm asking what would the end benefit really be in terms of tangible improvement?
You are aware there is a nice industrial park off Pine and, I believe Lansing which has created jobs? A new YMCA, nicer housing provided by the THA, newer health clinics, many jobs provided by the city to black Tulsan's, etc. ad nauseum.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Okay Swake. Since it weighs heavy on you, do you spend money up in the GBD other than when festivals are in the area? Do you patronize businesses in north Tulsa, especially mom-n-pops? Donate to the UNCF?
What really, will additional reparations accomplish? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm asking what would the end benefit really be in terms of tangible improvement?
You are aware there is a nice industrial park off Pine and, I believe Lansing which has created jobs? A new YMCA, nicer housing provided by the THA, newer health clinics, many jobs provided by the city to black Tulsan's, etc. ad nauseum.
Look,
It's simply the right thing to do. Isn't that a good enough reason? When did it stop being a good enough reason?
I don't think that some sort of payment to survivors is going to fix the ills of north Tulsa. There is no tangible immediate change that you would see in north Tulsa. That is not the goal.
The goal is that we as a community of all races, take responsibility for the actions of our community. There is a divide still in this city, read this thread and you can see it. What the building of a real memorial and taking actions to do something for the few remaining survivors will do is help to heal that rift.
We need to this because it's the right thing to and do, and because it will let the descendants of those survivors and the people that live in that community today know that their history is respected and remembered in the same way that the history of the rest of the city is. It is our history, for good or bad. To finally overcome it we have to embrace it and take responsibility for it as a community.
^ Well said.
Swake:
Sooo....I agree with you about the memorial, but are you also advocating repartions?
(btw, i deleted my post and reposted so that rwarn's would be in the right place...how nice of me.)
Here is what I would advocate. I'm not in favor a lawsuit or extension of the statute of limitations or some massive payout. The time really is long past for anything like that.
I didn't know about the scholarship program, that's very good. I think that all the actual descendants of survivors born before the 100th anniversary of the riot should have college tuition waived by the state. This is not a large thing and it really could have a large impact on the community and Tulsa overall over time.
I would give a payment to any actual survivors and anyone born into the community (not moved) in the five or so years after the riot. There are not going to be many of these people. I would give them two things, one, a payment of say $10,000 dollars, something not insignificant, but nothing huge either. Second, they should each have their own place in the memorial to tell their story and have it preserved, permanently.
1) Unless I am reading a different history than you are, the ENTIRE NORTH SIDE was not burned down. Large portions of it were destroyed and horrible acts committed. There was a full scale assault on the "Negro Section" of town. I do not believe there is a need for hyperbole.
2) The North side is NOT, by any means, all gangs and drive by shootings. But that is the stereo type, and stereo types usually exist for a reason and have to be combated. This communities exposure to the North Side, which is predominantly black, is mostly news reports on crime. There is very little done in the predominantly black areas to combat this image and many youths revel in it and even attempt to exaggerate it so they might appear more "hard core." This perception is certainly not my invention and is based on casual observation, certainly it does not reflect the truth - but perception is reality.
3) If my entire region of the city was burned to the ground and my friends and loved ones murdered I would feel bad. If you then taxed some guy from Iowa to give the money to someone who wasn't even involved 80 years later I wouldn't feel any better.
You failed to address the basic premise, it does no good. Will any black person say "yay, I got $25 from white people. Kumbaya." Or any white person drop racial stereotypes or ill will? Nothing good will come of it.
4) Millions and Millions of people have been screwed throughout history. My ancestors were low level Prusian Lords. When the Kaiser unified Germany we lost everything and moved to America. In America we were forced further and further west until we settle in Illinois. During WWI the county we lived in took our farm (basically because we spoke German) and we moved further west to Iowa. During WWII my great-grandfather owned the farm and spoke predominantly German. His sons were drafted and no one conducted business with him because he spoke German. Again the farm was lost.
I'm holding out my hand for my money now. It wasnt you and I can not prove it had an ill effect on my life personally, but certainly giving me money is the right thing to do.
What about the millions of black descendants of slaves? How much shall we pay them? Or the Mexican's that lost their land when the Texan's rebelled? Indian land claims? How many trillions shall we pay in reparations for North America and Military Extermination of the Natives?
Certainly it would be the right thing to do to correct every wrong that has befallen a group of people. Back to when the Israelites slaughtered the habitants of their "promised land" to take it for themselves and on to paying millions to the wrongfully killed civilians in Iraq.
5) If you only want to repay to people who's ancestors suffered or were effected, then only CHARGE people who took part or who's ancestors benefited. It's not exactly just to punish people in no way involved now is it? But it would be difficult to discern.
I gave a bum in the Brady District $5 the other day. He was from Tulsa, and he was black. Can I count that as my reparations? I'm sure he would say his family was harmed in the riot if it got him more money. Who's to prove he was not.
Logistically, that wont work. What about the black people that moved away? Do we track them to hand out money?
6) You are implying that the only way these poor repressed black people will ever have a chance is to get hand outs from white people. In 85 years they have not been able to rise up, but with a few dollars from white people they are certainly going to get their act together and the North Side will be a shining beacon!
How insulting.
- - - - - - - -
If there are survivors it is the cities DUTY to make complete amends and do their best to return their destroyed property. But to continue on through generations and without regard for involvement only depends the racial divide (white person = guilty of race riot. Black Person = Victim)
I believe a memorial would be suitable as it is an important and tragic event in Tulsa's past. Lest we remember the past, we are doomed to repeat it. But the message should be "look what horrible things happen when we divide along racial lines," NOT "look how horrible white people are. The white man has kept us down and owes us something." Few, if any, people have ever succeeded with a victim mentality.
Saying "it's the right thing to do" has no basis in logic.
I get the tort concept nature of reparations. If someone runs a stop light and hits my truck, I deserve to be compensated for the damages to or loss of my truck and the costs of any personal injury and any income lost as a result of someone else's accidental or willful act.
I really don't understand the point of throwing money arbitrarily at problems especially when the damages occurred 86 years years ago. Who has any clue what the individual monetary damages would be for any individual? How do you quantify damages for someone who was raised in the area after the riot?
Throwing money at problems often leads to more problems. Someone else didn't get their share, someone used it for some sort of horrible binge that ruined their life. Witness what happened when the government tried to make reparations to people in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
Having a specific goal in mind for the betterment of the community would be the right thing, not enrichening a few people in a community. Re: college scholarships, economic development funding, re-development districts etc. which promotes the well-being of the entire community is the only sort of reparation which makes any sense. Witness what soveriegn land grants and gaming/tobacco pacts from the government has accomplished for Indian tribes to provide better health care, housing, education, and jobs for their people. I don't really agree with what they use the land for to raise money, but I'm not a frequent visitor to casinos in the first place.
You know, basic "If you give a man a fish you've fed him for a day. If you teach a man how to fish, you've fed him for a lifetime." stuff.
And even with the examples listed, I'm still not nuts about the reparation issue.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Here is what I would advocate. I'm not in favor a lawsuit or extension of the statute of limitations or some massive payout. The time really is long past for anything like that.
I didn't know about the scholarship program, that's very good. I think that all the actual descendants of survivors born before the 100th anniversary of the riot should have college tuition waived by the state. This is not a large thing and it really could have a large impact on the community and Tulsa overall over time.
I would give a payment to any actual survivors and anyone born into the community (not moved) in the five or so years after the riot. There are not going to be many of these people. I would give them two things, one, a payment of say $10,000 dollars, something not insignificant, but nothing huge either. Second, they should each have their own place in the memorial to tell their story and have it preserved, permanently.
So what if your offering is seen as insufficient by Dr. Franklin and others like him? How do we derrive those numbers? What if they asked for $50,000 a person, would I be wrong to say that's too much...maybe too little? If $10,000 is the right thing to do why not $50,000?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
1) Unless I am reading a different history than you are, the ENTIRE NORTH SIDE was not burned down. Large portions of it were destroyed and horrible acts committed. There was a full scale assault on the "Negro Section" of town. I do not believe there is a need for hyperbole.
2) The North side is NOT, by any means, all gangs and drive by shootings. But that is the stereo type, and stereo types usually exist for a reason and have to be combated. This communities exposure to the North Side, which is predominantly black, is mostly news reports on crime. There is very little done in the predominantly black areas to combat this image and many youths revel in it and even attempt to exaggerate it so they might appear more "hard core." This perception is certainly not my invention and is based on casual observation, certainly it does not reflect the truth - but perception is reality.
3) If my entire region of the city was burned to the ground and my friends and loved ones murdered I would feel bad. If you then taxed some guy from Iowa to give the money to someone who wasn't even involved 80 years later I wouldn't feel any better.
You failed to address the basic premise, it does no good. Will any black person say "yay, I got $25 from white people. Kumbaya." Or any white person drop racial stereotypes or ill will? Nothing good will come of it.
4) Millions and Millions of people have been screwed throughout history. My ancestors were low level Prusian Lords. When the Kaiser unified Germany we lost everything and moved to America. In America we were forced further and further west until we settle in Illinois. During WWI the county we lived in took our farm (basically because we spoke German) and we moved further west to Iowa. During WWII my great-grandfather owned the farm and spoke predominantly German. His sons were drafted and no one conducted business with him because he spoke German. Again the farm was lost.
I'm holding out my hand for my money now. It wasnt you and I can not prove it had an ill effect on my life personally, but certainly giving me money is the right thing to do.
What about the millions of black descendants of slaves? How much shall we pay them? Or the Mexican's that lost their land when the Texan's rebelled? Indian land claims? How many trillions shall we pay in reparations for North America and Military Extermination of the Natives?
Certainly it would be the right thing to do to correct every wrong that has befallen a group of people. Back to when the Israelites slaughtered the habitants of their "promised land" to take it for themselves and on to paying millions to the wrongfully killed civilians in Iraq.
5) If you only want to repay to people who's ancestors suffered or were effected, then only CHARGE people who took part or who's ancestors benefited. It's not exactly just to punish people in no way involved now is it? But it would be difficult to discern.
I gave a bum in the Brady District $5 the other day. He was from Tulsa, and he was black. Can I count that as my reparations? I'm sure he would say his family was harmed in the riot if it got him more money. Who's to prove he was not.
Logistically, that wont work. What about the black people that moved away? Do we track them to hand out money?
6) You are implying that the only way these poor repressed black people will ever have a chance is to get hand outs from white people. In 85 years they have not been able to rise up, but with a few dollars from white people they are certainly going to get their act together and the North Side will be a shining beacon!
How insulting.
- - - - - - - -
If there are survivors it is the cities DUTY to make complete amends and do their best to return their destroyed property. But to continue on through generations and without regard for involvement only depends the racial divide (white person = guilty of race riot. Black Person = Victim)
I believe a memorial would be suitable as it is an important and tragic event in Tulsa's past. Lest we remember the past, we are doomed to repeat it. But the message should be "look what horrible things happen when we divide along racial lines," NOT "look how horrible white people are. The white man has kept us down and owes us something." Few, if any, people have ever succeeded with a victim mentality.
I'm not talking about some historic fact or payments to anyone's ancestors. We have real living and breathing people that lived through this. They are the only ones I'm talking about.
And it really seems you aren't even reading.
"I am not for payments to anyone except survivors, but survivors would include people born into the community in the years just after the riots, before the north side was rebuilt."
Those born after the riot would be considered ancestors.
However, you're last comment was written as I drafted my rant. Thank you for clarifying your position. I believe I could be on board with a large part of your idea and apologize for my over reaction. Little stressed lately [xx(]
Tulsa does not want to know the truth.
One day we bomb hell out of Iraq and the next day we sign sweetheart contracts to repair the damage we have done.
Being born six months before the riot from a beautiful lady who live very near the riot, (The city at the time was so small you could have heard the gunfire or see the glowing of the burning in the Northern sky) She would try to elate the facts to me but as a child I was brought up believing there was a distinct difference in the color of the skin. We had a black man working for us in '27 who had a red tag hanging on a string around his neck which allowed him to be south of the tracks before sun down.
After the war of 1860 many of the blacks migrated to the Indian Territory and established settlements that were all black. (Alsuma, Redbird, etc,.) They established a settlement North of the Railroads referred to as Greenwood which flourished and was know as the Black Wall-Street.
The Glenpool was discovered. The men seeking oil drew up leases for the subsurface mineral rights and obtained "Drunk Indian" X marks as signers of the leases. The Oil Barons chose to use the little settlement south of the tracks to control and build their monuments in high rises buildings. As one Black Lady once told me, "This was the tale of two cities."
What caused the Riot?
The silent governing body of the city of Tulsa. The expansion of Greenwood was considered a threat to the expansion of the Oil Barons desire to create a city as they wanted it built. There was fear that the city would be known as a "Black City".
I was told of the aftermath of the riot when the KKK took over to clean out what the burnout failed to do.
The pictures in the building on Greenwood shows the complete destruction of the business area after the riot.
Volumes of opinions have been written on this tale of two cities and which will never be laid to rest. The destruction of the Black Wall Street, even today is being carried out as retaliation.
The reparation has been reduced to an individual basis in the discussions on this thread. The inherence of many of the blacks lie in the ashes that were cleaned up after the riot. We as a nation are spending billions of dollars of a quasi reparation of the damages we do in Iraq, as a nation not as individuals. The city caused the riot and the inherence that should have been the families who suffered the loss should be paid to the heirs by the city.
Monuments are for only the now generations.
As this subject has for 85 years been a no, no and two generations have past, it is time to address it an put it to rest.
And today the moderator may remove this post.
There seems to be, from what I understand, a slight misinterpretation of history going on here. Yes the race riots happened, it was terrible thing, many businesses were destroyed and lives lost.... That area was once called "The Black Wall Street" and when you look at the area today you see vacant lots, parking lots, ponds "OSU Tulsa campus" where buildings once were.
But putting these facts alone together may lead to some wrong conclusions. Like, It was the riots that left the area looking like it does now. That after the riots the black community never got back on its feet and left it with many of the problems and lack of businesses it sees now.
From what I have heard. After the race riots that area saw a rebirth that was said to have made the area much greater than it ever was before. It wasnt the race riots that left that area like you see it now. It had more to do with urban renewal projects, the change in shopping habits, flight from the core of the city to shop and live elsewhere by blacks moving further north just as whites did moving south, then the removal of "urban blight", and insertion of 244 and hwy 75.
It was actually after the race riots when the Greenwood District had its "golden age" that it was called Tulsas "Black Wall Street".
If I am completely wrong about all this. Blame it on this guy...
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A17408
I don't have any family in Oklahoma, I came here in 1980 - long after the riots were over.
I figure if they can dig up the names of all the people who were wronged - they can do the same and dig up the names of the people who wronged them. Make those people make things right.
They want to talk about skin color issues. What I see happening is "I owe these people something because my skin is white." Because people with "white" skin did something bad long before I was born - before my parents from another state were born.
I am sorry those people long ago did these things. But I didn't do them and I don't owe any of these people anything just because I happen to be white.
Anyone who wants to can make something of themselves and prosper. If these people are letting somkething that happened in 1921 hold them back then they have more problems than money.
It wasn't just "something" that held the affected black people back.
Civil courts were stacked against blacks during the 1920s (remember, this was the Jim Crow era). Even the insurance companies blew off property settlements in wake of the riots. "Civil unrest" is usually the loophole the companies use to keep from paying such claims.
It's pretty damned hard to start over when the courts and insurance company you paid premiums into decide to blow you off.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
There seems to be, from what I understand, a slight misinterpretation of history going on here. Yes the race riots happened, it was terrible thing, many businesses were destroyed and lives lost.... That area was once called "The Black Wall Street" and when you look at the area today you see vacant lots, parking lots, ponds "OSU Tulsa campus" where buildings once were.
But putting these facts alone together may lead to some wrong conclusions. Like, It was the riots that left the area looking like it does now. That after the riots the black community never got back on its feet and left it with many of the problems and lack of businesses it sees now.
From what I have heard. After the race riots that area saw a rebirth that was said to have made the area much greater than it ever was before. It wasnt the race riots that left that area like you see it now. It had more to do with urban renewal projects, the change in shopping habits, flight from the core of the city to shop and live elsewhere by blacks moving further north just as whites did moving south, then the removal of "urban blight", and insertion of 244 and hwy 75.
It was actually after the race riots when the Greenwood District had its "golden age" that it was called Tulsas "Black Wall Street".
If I am completely wrong about all this. Blame it on this guy...
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A17408
Hmmm...very interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
I don't have any family in Oklahoma, I came here in 1980 - long after the riots were over.
I am sorry those people long ago did these things. But I didn't do them and I don't owe any of these people anything just because I happen to be white.
Perhaps you are right. The Trail of Tears was foisted on Indians by people I didn't know, and my ancestors didn't even live here. So why give them any recognition or help. There goes the BIA. Not my fault. We could take that misguided effort to memorialize the event, the Council Oak tree area, and plop in some cool infill. Memorials should be paid for by the losers anyway.
That is the most common argument among people far removed from the event, but for some reason the one that least resonates with me. These people think that the world has changed, that Tulsa has changed and lets just move on. Having lived here most of my life, I don't agree.
If I were to use the argument in other parts of my life, it's weakness magnifies. For instance, I never participated in installing asbestos in homes that were built before I was even born. I bought a house with asbestos though. Why should I have to pay to have it removed?
I never dumped petrochemicals in the river, that was done before my father was born. Why should my tax dollars pay to clean up these messes. Let these workers with lung disease from asbestos fibers pull themselves up with their own will power. Let the polluters of the river clean it up. What were these losers who worked in these industries thinking? Poor choices were made and now they expect us to bail them out? Lets pull up the skeletons of those cars dumped in the river, search for their owners and make them pay to pull them out.
The second weakest is the "bootstraps" argument. Hard to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps when no one will recognize that your boots were stolen.
But these two arguments will win the day. Doesn't mean they are right. The decline of quality of life in areas populated with blacks and other minorities will mislead the public into false generalizations that they are somehow endemic to the race or the culture and will be used to re-inforce the two arguments.
I enjoyed the remarks from Shadows. Each native tulsa family has some stories from the event though most have never been published. This begs for a movie. The reason I mentioned the servants quarters, and the service buzzers in my home is to point out the arrogance of the people at that time. My home was modest even then but servants were an expectation. Even the local grade shool built just before the riots, Lee, was named for a Confederate General. Go figure.
I doubt there has been a remark on this thread that comes from an African American who grew up or currently lives in far North Tulsa. They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking. Kick me in the rear for my remarks, I'm used to it. (The one thing not lacking on these threads is passion.) The only encouraging thing to me has been that the most insightful, thoughtful remarks have been from a white, well educated, prosperous former BTW grad who lives in the far south burbs.
quote:
They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking.
Of course you think so. Because those ideas are different from yours so they
MUST be wrong, or misguided, or uninformed...I love people like you who think that only "others" display shallow thinking.
Did you bother to even read TheArtist's post. Your comments make no sense in light of what has been posted, and your analogies are woefully innacurate.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking.
Of course you think so. Because those ideas are different from yours so they MUST be wrong, or misguided, or uninformed...I love people like you who think that only "others" display shallow thinking.
Thanks for the affection, but I am not lacking in that area.
I would go farther and say that in this time period there is very little in depth thinking. Most folks let others think for them, then regurgitate. You are in a career and possess an education that requires depth. Apparently you don't always use those skills. But wouldn't you agree that a population that doesn't read newspapers, devours unsubstantiated internet info and converses in bumper sticker phrases is lacking in critical thinking or in truly understanding differing perspectives?
Yes, I read his post and the accompanying link. The fact that local government was the major participant in dismantling Greenwood only re-inforces that institutional racism existed even through the sixties. No surprise if you lived here then.
quote:
Apparently you don't always use those skills.
Again, translation: If you don't agree with
ME you're stupid, uninformed, shallow....
quote:
I would go farther and say that in this time period there is very little in depth thinking.
Everyone except for you and anyone who agrees with you I suppose...you guys really see the whole picture...
And no, I don't make the assumption that everyone is undereducated, uninformed and so on. Most of this conversation simply comes down to common sense questioning. Simple ideas like not blaming others for the quality of life in your community 80 years after a tragic event...after your community had previously recovered. Not blaming the past for the fact that you let drugs and gangs run rampant in your streets.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Not blaming the past for the fact that you let drugs and gangs run rampant in your streets.
This is the most offensive statement of all. Do you really think that the vast majority of residents of North Tulsa "let" drugs and gangs run in their streets? You are blaming the victims, again. Most residents of the area are terrified of the guns and gangs want to feel as safe in their homes as people that live in the rest of Tulsa. The majority of residents feel like they have been failed by the city of Tulsa that this is the current situation in too many neighborhoods on the north side.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Apparently you don't always use those skills.
Again, translation: If you don't agree with ME you're stupid, uninformed, shallow....
quote:
I would go farther and say that in this time period there is very little in depth thinking.
Everyone except for you and anyone who agrees with you I suppose...you guys really see the whole picture...
And no, I don't make the assumption that everyone is undereducated, uninformed and so on. Most of this conversation simply comes down to common sense questioning. Simple ideas like not blaming others for the quality of life in your community 80 years after a tragic event...after your community had previously recovered. Not blaming the past for the fact that you let drugs and gangs run rampant in your streets.
As usual, you make up your own insipid scenarios, imply that they come from others, then blast them to pieces. I believe you just enjoy the fight and could care less about the issues.
My perception of how deep the electorate goes stems from Newt Gingrich grasping that reality back in the 80's and sharing the tools to exploit it with his political contemporaries. I guess you see have affection for him too.
Now, leave me alone. I must go to work.
I'm breaking apart your post Waterboy to properly respond, not to kick you in the rear.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Perhaps you are right. The Trail of Tears was foisted on Indians by people I didn't know, and my ancestors didn't even live here.
. . .
That is the most common argument among people far removed from the event, but for some reason the one that least resonates with me.
. . .
If I were to use the argument in other parts of my life, it's weakness magnifies. For instance, I never participated in installing asbestos in homes that were built before I was even born.
Removing the asbestos from a home has a definite positive impact on the community and is proven to be required for safe and healthy living. The person who wishes to utilize the property, he who will benefit, is required to pay the cost. In the river - pollution is known to harm all and cleaning it up is known to help all.
There is no evidence to suggest cash payouts will help race relations nor that they will get the North Side out of its 80 year slump. Likewise, there is no evidence that it will help those that are being forced to pay it.
Which, by the way, logistically & legally speaking, would include the black residents on the North Side - so some poor black residents who aren't included in the program would be paying money to enrich those that are... I'm sure that would go over well too.
I simply believe that no "the white man keeps us down" black man nor any "black people are trash" white man will have a change of heart when money is exchanged. If anything, it will lead to greater tension as the money was not enough, we gave them money and they still cant raise up, or they got money I didnt, or whatever squabbles come forth. I see little actual good coming form mass reparations (not to be confused with targeted funds to persons actually injured by Tulsa City action/inaction).
quote:
The second weakest is the "bootstraps" argument. Hard to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps when no one will recognize that your boots were stolen.
So you are arguing that they in fact, cannot pull themselves up by their own bootstraps until the white man gives them money to buy new boots? Honestly, 1 generation has been enough for Europe and Japan to rebuild themselves - surely the North Side could do it in two. Notwithstanding the comments pointing out that the North Side prospered after the riots and something else was to blame for the decline (reparations for Compton, Harlem and other 'black' areas that fell into decline?)
quote:
The decline of quality of life in areas populated with blacks and other minorities will mislead the public into false generalizations
Generally speaking, areas populated by a majority of minorities are in disrepair and unsafe. That has been the case when the Irish were minorities, when Eastern Europeans were minorities, and more recently Hispanics. It does not speak to race in particular, but more to the American experience I suppose. The mystery is the glorification and continuation of this trend by the latest generation of black youth - arguably the first that has truly had equal or even "more equal" opportunity.
I don't know my history well enough, perhaps its common. I admit I am not a physiologist nor anthropologist, just what I observe.
quote:
servants quarters. . .Even the local grade school built just before the riots, Lee, was named for a Confederate General.
A large percentage of homes had servants up until WWII. This was very common as women were not usually welcomed in factories but households desired a second income. At the time white women complained that the black women were taking their jobs as housekeepers and nannies because they would work for nothing - same argument that was made by everyone against the Irish before them and about the Hispanics today.
I do not know the reasons for the naming of the school at the time, but Lee today is celebrated as one of the greatest generals the US has ever produced as well as the greatest harbinger of peace in the post civil war era. He is credited more often than anyone else with the fact that the South was quickly reintegrated to the Union and that no significant guerrilla war broke out. Again, not sure if that was there thought process (probably not), but an interesting footnote.
quote:
I doubt there has been a remark on this thread that comes from an African American who grew up or currently lives in far North Tulsa. They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking.
I would greatly prefer commentary from someone who has direct experience. Better yet, someone who lived during the time to tell us what happened and what IS happening. I have no perspective, I understand that. Unfortunately, the 'generalization' that the North Side's black population is poor and uninvolved and that black people in general utilize the internet much less appears to be somewhat true. Generalizations are, after all, generally correct and comments from the mass market reflect the publics general view. Both are merely reflections of reality and cannot be discerned right, nor wrong.
I guess my basic statement stands:
WHAT GOOD WILL COME FROM THIS? The details are fuzzy, do we give money to all black people, those that can prove descendants, those that can prove harm from the riots... and who will pay (all of Tulsa County most likely). Unless the payments are to persons actually harmed in the riot (ie. property destroyed) it is hard to see what good will come from the cash payments.
A memorial, a public apology, or some recognition is long over due as clearly this was a serious event in Tulsa's past. The question should be how do we truly PUT it in the past and live beyond it.
quote:
This is the most offensive statement of all. Do you really think that the vast majority of residents of North Tulsa "let" drugs and gangs run in their streets? You are blaming the victims, again.
Victims of what?
quote:
The majority of residents feel like they have been failed by the city of Tulsa that this is the current situation in too many neighborhoods on the north side.
Who has failed them? What has Tulsa "not" done? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the culture of the communities in which these thugs operate...which mirror every other ghetto community in the US. If north tulsa were somehow an abberation you could possibly blame the past for its ills, but that is simply not the case. North Tulsa is indistinguishable from every other ghetto area in anytown USA.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
This is the most offensive statement of all. Do you really think that the vast majority of residents of North Tulsa "let" drugs and gangs run in their streets? You are blaming the victims, again.
Victims of what?
quote:
The majority of residents feel like they have been failed by the city of Tulsa that this is the current situation in too many neighborhoods on the north side.
Who has failed them? What has Tulsa "not" done? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the culture of the communities in which these thugs operate...which mirror every other ghetto community in the US. If north tulsa were somehow an abberation you could possibly blame the past for its ills, but that is simply not the case. North Tulsa is indistinguishable from every other ghetto area in anytown USA.
They are victims of the gangs and the drugs that have created a too often lawless region of the city. If you don't think that north Tulsa is aberrant, then you need to review our crime statistics compared to other similar cities. It's too high, way too high. And, despite those crime statistics the vast majority of Tulsa is very safe. It's that certain areas are very unsafe, too the point of not being normal for any city.
The big driver for our crime rate is the gang problem and while I'm not going to lay the blame for gangs at the feet of the riot, it is the fault of the city for not containing gangs or controlling crime. There are reasons for that fault, TPD for a long time tried to act as if gangs didn't exist, it was a matter of policy to act as if they did not. Poor police administration and lack of funding are two more good reasons. Another reason is the fault line that still exists between north and south, where residents in the north don't always feel like the city is serving them or that the police do. Based on the situation even today, can you really say they don't have cause to feel that way?
You want to make crime the fault of the impoverished residents of North Tulsa, but, the reality is that cities have a responsibility to all citizens to protect them and the city of Tulsa is failing to do that today in some parts of the city.
quote:
The big driver for our crime rate is the gang problem and while I'm not going to lay the blame for gangs at the feet of the riot, it is the fault of the city for not containing gangs or controlling crime. There are reasons for that fault, TPD for a long time tried to act as if gangs didn't exist, it was a matter of policy to act as if they did not. Poor police administration and lack of funding are two more good reasons. Another reason is the fault line that still exists between north and south, where residents in the north don't always feel like the city is serving them or that the police do. Based on the situation even today, can you really say they don't have cause to feel that way?
I get what you're saying here, but it really has nothing to do with attributing any blame to after effects from the riot, which is the link that people have been trying to establish.
And not to compare our ghetto to someone else's but I'd rather walk through north tulsa holding a KKK flag than even have to walk past 3rd ward in Houston or 9th ward in N.O.
quote:
You want to make crime the fault of the impoverished residents of North Tulsa, but, the reality is that cities have a responsibility to all citizens to protect them and the city of Tulsa is failing to do that today in some parts of the city.
I honestly have no idea whos "fault" it is, but IMO it looks like every other ghetto I've ever come across or driven through...
If the police did focus more time on the northside it would only be met with cries of racism and hatred.
I dare say a disproportionate amount of police and emergency services are spent on a relatively small area of north Tulsa. It's been about 20 years since "there are no gangs" Chief Diamond.
There are laws which prevent cops from being able to break up gangs in wholesale lots and other laws and over-crowded prisons which fail to keep them from returning to the street. Perhaps if they could get help from the feds under auspices of RICO it might go away quicker.
Why are gangs such a big problem? It's disrespect for the law and life.
I don't know about you but I learned respect for the law and life from my parents.
Let me relate a story to you. I was talking to someone I know in TPD and they told me that sitting in UDN you will hear gunshots on a semi-regular basis in the neighborhood surrounding the station but unless someone calls to complain, they won't do anything about it.
Care to address why there are gangs in the first place? It's not a chicken/egg issue, has nothing to do with racial divide or gunshots w/in hearing distance of UDN.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Care to address why there are gangs in the first place? It's not a chicken/egg issue, has nothing to do with racial divide or gunshots w/in hearing distance of UDN.
Oh, that's too easy and is the other reason that the city, and region, as a whole does have a responsibility to the situation in these areas. Drugs are the reason for gangs. And a very large part of the money that is paid for those drugs comes from people on the south side, and in the 'burbs. People that had nothing and nothing to lose suddenly had access to a commodity in great demand that would provide them with large amounts of easy money.
quote:
Drugs are the reason for gangs.
Please...drugs are just a quick and easy way to make money to further other goals. Take away the drugs and larceny/theft increase, nothing changes.
Still beating around the bush here I see.
Why is it that there are kids who come out of the same neighborhood as gang-bangers who go off to college and make something of themselves while others wind up in prison, dead, or derelict for life?
I didn't get my influences which kept me away from drugs (well okay, kept me from falling into a druggie lifestyle) from school. Didn't get that from the neighborhood cop either. I didn't stay out of that trap just because I'm white or lived in SoTul or because I didn't think it was lucrative.
I had plenty of white friends who paid a high price for messing with that crap.
Are you getting it yet? Doesn't have a thing to do with racial disparity and reparations and a memorial or monument won't change it either.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I'm breaking apart your post Waterboy to properly respond, not to kick you in the rear.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Perhaps you are right. The Trail of Tears was foisted on Indians by people I didn't know, and my ancestors didn't even live here.
. . .
That is the most common argument among people far removed from the event, but for some reason the one that least resonates with me.
. . .
If I were to use the argument in other parts of my life, it's weakness magnifies. For instance, I never participated in installing asbestos in homes that were built before I was even born.
Removing the asbestos from a home has a definite positive impact on the community and is proven to be required for safe and healthy living. The person who wishes to utilize the property, he who will benefit, is required to pay the cost. In the river - pollution is known to harm all and cleaning it up is known to help all.
There is no evidence to suggest cash payouts will help race relations nor that they will get the North Side out of its 80 year slump. Likewise, there is no evidence that it will help those that are being forced to pay it.
Which, by the way, logistically & legally speaking, would include the black residents on the North Side - so some poor black residents who aren't included in the program would be paying money to enrich those that are... I'm sure that would go over well too.
I simply believe that no "the white man keeps us down" black man nor any "black people are trash" white man will have a change of heart when money is exchanged. If anything, it will lead to greater tension as the money was not enough, we gave them money and they still cant raise up, or they got money I didnt, or whatever squabbles come forth. I see little actual good coming form mass reparations (not to be confused with targeted funds to persons actually injured by Tulsa City action/inaction).
quote:
The second weakest is the "bootstraps" argument. Hard to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps when no one will recognize that your boots were stolen.
So you are arguing that they in fact, cannot pull themselves up by their own bootstraps until the white man gives them money to buy new boots? Honestly, 1 generation has been enough for Europe and Japan to rebuild themselves - surely the North Side could do it in two. Notwithstanding the comments pointing out that the North Side prospered after the riots and something else was to blame for the decline (reparations for Compton, Harlem and other 'black' areas that fell into decline?)
quote:
The decline of quality of life in areas populated with blacks and other minorities will mislead the public into false generalizations
Generally speaking, areas populated by a majority of minorities are in disrepair and unsafe. That has been the case when the Irish were minorities, when Eastern Europeans were minorities, and more recently Hispanics. It does not speak to race in particular, but more to the American experience I suppose. The mystery is the glorification and continuation of this trend by the latest generation of black youth - arguably the first that has truly had equal or even "more equal" opportunity.
I don't know my history well enough, perhaps its common. I admit I am not a physiologist nor anthropologist, just what I observe.
quote:
servants quarters. . .Even the local grade school built just before the riots, Lee, was named for a Confederate General.
A large percentage of homes had servants up until WWII. This was very common as women were not usually welcomed in factories but households desired a second income. At the time white women complained that the black women were taking their jobs as housekeepers and nannies because they would work for nothing - same argument that was made by everyone against the Irish before them and about the Hispanics today.
I do not know the reasons for the naming of the school at the time, but Lee today is celebrated as one of the greatest generals the US has ever produced as well as the greatest harbinger of peace in the post civil war era. He is credited more often than anyone else with the fact that the South was quickly reintegrated to the Union and that no significant guerrilla war broke out. Again, not sure if that was there thought process (probably not), but an interesting footnote.
quote:
I doubt there has been a remark on this thread that comes from an African American who grew up or currently lives in far North Tulsa. They are remarks that represent mass market, inch deep thinking.
I would greatly prefer commentary from someone who has direct experience. Better yet, someone who lived during the time to tell us what happened and what IS happening. I have no perspective, I understand that. Unfortunately, the 'generalization' that the North Side's black population is poor and uninvolved and that black people in general utilize the internet much less appears to be somewhat true. Generalizations are, after all, generally correct and comments from the mass market reflect the publics general view. Both are merely reflections of reality and cannot be discerned right, nor wrong.
I guess my basic statement stands:
WHAT GOOD WILL COME FROM THIS? The details are fuzzy, do we give money to all black people, those that can prove descendants, those that can prove harm from the riots... and who will pay (all of Tulsa County most likely). Unless the payments are to persons actually harmed in the riot (ie. property destroyed) it is hard to see what good will come from the cash payments.
A memorial, a public apology, or some recognition is long over due as clearly this was a serious event in Tulsa's past. The question should be how do we truly PUT it in the past and live beyond it.
I should answer this in the morning when I could be more responsive. Let me just say, I don't think general reparations are the answer. I don't think I ever said that, but people do infer. Your arguments, as usual are cogent. Can't say I agree, but they are persuasive.
However, there are direct descendants, children at the time, who should be considered for monetary awards for damages. Made whole so to speak. I'm betting that there are foundations or commercial entities who would consider funding such payouts for the good public relations. Doubt there are more than a couple dozen legitimate recipients.
And a memorial is a given. This was a tragic moment that shouldn't be forgotten. We remember the tragedies of Murrah, Civil War, Trail of Tears, even remote Civil War battles. Its a matter of respect, education and hope to stop recreation of the tragedy.
Ps. Thanks for not changing the text of your post several times after I post ala IP.[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Care to address why there are gangs in the first place? It's not a chicken/egg issue, has nothing to do with racial divide or gunshots w/in hearing distance of UDN.
Oh, that's too easy and is the other reason that the city, and region, as a whole does have a responsibility to the situation in these areas. Drugs are the reason for gangs. And a very large part of the money that is paid for those drugs comes from people on the south side, and in the 'burbs. People that had nothing and nothing to lose suddenly had access to a commodity in great demand that would provide them with large amounts of easy money.
Exactly. I spoke with a bail bondsman (in a social setting thank you) here in town and was complaining of the drug culture in Tulsa and how it fueled the gang culture. He agreed but assured me it is the entire country that is struggling with addicted populations outside of ghetto areas that are keeping the gangs healthy. They don't even have to leave the hood to sell. The wealthy, white kids come find them.
After having read through the elegant words of the posters and trying to analyze where compassion to the fellow man is lacking and gross misunderstanding prevails over common sense.
Being a descendant of a rebellion against the taking of the plantations that was pragmatic to the solution by the trail of tears, it may leaves one biased.
For years we did contract work for the North City residents. I have been on their streets up to midnight. When I was told by a citizen "don't come over here after 4:30 for your safety" I considered that a change was in the makings.
Once when I was going to converse with a customer, a little black boy about 6 years old was standing by the gate. I saw a new penny lying in the street and picked it up handing it to him. I said: "here go buy you something". He took the penny and threw it back into the street and retorted "Mister, what in the hell can you buy with a penny".
This was an insult to the boy the same as what we continue to do with the North City as far as the city helping today.
The riot was an armed invasion on the North City by the South City. The rebuilding in the '60s was brought to a close by the Urban Renewal where the improvised housing, built as a aftermath of the supposed riot, was bought and what they were paid for them barely made a down payment on a glut of houses in adjoining areas. Much of the land is vacant today or being used as city offices and other governmental entitles.
We find millions of dollar today to change the governmental structure of the city. We have the newbee residents coming into the city and call for more to come but they want to be in the changing parade and do not want to clean the path for the parade.
Have you ever ask yourself why the Clan covered their faces?
It all happened for economic reasons. On this the statutes of limitation should never run out and the descendants of those injured by this injustice are entitle to reparation.
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Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I'm breaking apart your post Waterboy to properly respond, not to kick you in the rear.
QuoteOriginally posted by waterboy
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servants quarters. . .Even the local grade school built just before the riots, Lee, was named for a Confederate General.
A large percentage of homes had servants up until WWII. This was very common as women were not usually welcomed in factories but households desired a second income. At the time white women complained that the black women were taking their jobs as housekeepers and nannies because they would work for nothing - same argument that was made by everyone against the Irish before them and about the Hispanics today.
I do not know the reasons for the naming of the school at the time, but Lee today is celebrated as one of the greatest generals the US has ever produced as well as the greatest harbinger of peace in the post civil war era. He is credited more often than anyone else with the fact that the South was quickly reintegrated to the Union and that no significant guerrilla war broke out. Again, not sure if that was there thought process (probably not), but an interesting footnote.
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I would like to respond to some of your post. You have an interest in the history of the city, and I believe that although there is plenty of "approved" history, there is lots of oral history and observable results that contrast with official recounting. The story of Tulsa's name is debatable too, but thats another story.
I think you have to look at a larger context for the naming of Lee stadium and the servants quarters of the housing at the time. Lee was not a school at that time but a stadium for the high school downtown. Tulsa elite very much identified with the Southern lifestyle. In fact we stayed with the Democratic party in this state through LBJ when it became clear that the party was no longer a haven for southern viewpoints. It is reflected in the buildings of the time, and such amenities as servants quarters and butler pantries in even the modest homes. Not so curiously, these amenities disappeared in modest homes, for the most part, in areas east of Peoria and south of 21st after the riots. Non functional semblances of them remain in later construction, but not things like buttons in the floor of the dining room to summon the servant. I spent a lot of time as a real estate agent in the 70's looking for an old home of my own and noticed these things.
Most of Maple Ridge, though the home of oil barons, was populated with local entrepreneurs and established businessmen who ran the city and were profitting handsomely from the oil industry growth. The riot was not promoted by the rich eastern oil men, but by these hangovers from the gilded age who were used to getting what they wanted using mobster techniques against Native Americans and unions. The swindles and mysterious deaths of land owning Indians is well documented as well as violent refinery strikes. This was their riot to protect their interests. Ironically, the city was bifurcating into Northern growth and Southern growth. By fomenting racial riots, the businessmen not only quelled any commercial competion from a self sustaining population, but managed to effectively end the movement of wealth to the north.
This was the context that Lee Stadium was named. To be fair, the fact that Lincoln elementary was built east of Peoria at 15th lends credence to your argument, but I think it was built after the riots. Besides, it was a different demographic.
This comment caught my eye.
The second weakest is the "bootstraps" argument. Hard to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps when no one will recognize that your boots were stolen.
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So you are arguing that they in fact, cannot pull themselves up by their own bootstraps until the white man gives them money to buy new boots? Honestly, 1 generation has been enough for Europe and Japan to rebuild themselves - surely the North Side could do it in two. Notwithstanding the comments pointing out that the North Side prospered after the riots and something else was to blame for the decline (reparations for Compton, Harlem and other 'black' areas that fell into decline?)
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Remember, I do not support general reparations. Simply pointed out some facts in evidence. One of these is the fallacy that Europe and Japan rebuilt themselves without anyone buying them new boots. The Marshall Plan was indeed help from the victors. Having learned something about the disaster that severe punishments from WWI victors brought about, including WWII, America was ready to help rebuild the losers of WWII. Besides overt help in rebuilding manufacturing, much to the dismay of domestic mfrs, we opened markets for their goods. Our investment in state of the art steel mills and technology would soon give them advantage. I remember a time in the fifties when "made in Japan" stamps had as little credibility as "made in China" does now. That aid hastened their recovery and strengthened our economy too.
The black community here had pretty much rebuilt their small town with no help from area government, only to have the remaining institutionalized racists use urban renewal and modern cities programs to finish them off. Remember, we were slow to integrate our schools and only came up with magnet school programs to avoid federal legal action.
Central was the only integrated high school starting in 1965 with just a few blacks. I attended in 67-69. Race relations among students was fine with occassional friction. By 1972 the school was closed with the rationale that the building was hopelessly out of date, couldn't be remodeled and had no base of students in the immediate area. PSO managed to take over the building soon after and remodel it into lovely offices. Go figure. Meanwhile students were transferred to a new Central in sparsely populated Northwest Tulsa that forced kids at 18th & Cincinnati to travel across town where their was no base but poor and black, but kept the blacks out of downtown. Didn't matter to the Maple Ridge folks as their kids went to private schools anyway by then.
I don't blame the city today for the level of crime and poverty in North Tulsa or among blacks. Most of that is due to drugs. The drugs are there because of the lack of opportunity, not some character/family deficits. You will not find people more family oriented than blacks in North Tulsa. The lack of understanding from the rest of the community about the history of the city certainly hasn't made it easy for them to prosper.
Is this what you really meant to say?
"Unfortunately, the 'generalization' that the North Side's black population is poor and uninvolved and that black people in general utilize the internet much less appears to be somewhat true. Generalizations are, after all, generally correct and comments from the mass market reflect the publics general view. Both are merely reflections of reality and cannot be discerned right, nor wrong."
How old am I for gawd's sake?[:P] I still believe all generalizations are false, even this one. I agree that perception leads to generalizations, especially when the perception is part of a mass media construction. One can read the paper, watch eye-witless news, peruse crime reports on the internet and conclude that the generalization of a crime ridden North Tulsa is true. That is a false generalization.
Nellie lived North of Admiral and east of Harvard as I once did, a solid, working class hood but quite different than Northwest by Roosevelt which is quite different than Pine and Peoria near Carver which is vastly different than 56th street north and Gilcrease Hills. All north, all different. Most with low levels of crime.
Then, North is confused with black populations that are dispersed through all those hoods. I suspect that many groups classed by age, race and income have varying levels of internet usage for different reasons. Does that mean they are less capable or cultured? If you are dead into tech like a lot of people here or simply a younger generation, you may get the false impression that it is more important to a successful, fulfilling life than it really is.
Okay, I've bored enough with my old school perspective. Just wanted to give you the respect of some response. Shadow, take over.
Another 4 score and 7 years is about to come to pass. The ashes of the riot still smolder and among the remnants come the thought of retaliation. Retaliation breed violence and violence breeds violence (The same finger that pointed at the North City with "remove it" may at any time point at this thread and say likewise.)
In nature "Birds of a feather flock together". Integration was the catalyst that was used to enforce the total destruction of the North City. It was used to distribute the flock.
There is no one who can go into the former city and not see that the animosity still persists. Even when they send councilors to fill council seats the councilors are dominated by the silent government after a very short time whereas they become no more than pawns to a never changing attitude. The Blacks promise of representation ride on the winds of the South City.
There is a new generation that is becoming of age. They look at the penny lying in the street and say to themselves "once we were a city with our governing bodies now we are expected to gather the pennies until we have enough to buy back our glory. The riot hangs today like a black cloud over the youth of the disbanded flock. And the victor has enjoyed the spoils.
It is time that we make our amends and put the invasion to rest. Reparation could make a great difference in the outcome to the future of Tulsa. It is much more important we do so in Tulsa than in Iraq.
Thanks for your detailed replies Water. I think we understand each other point of view and I think I have discerned our basic difference. We both agree that general reparations would do little good, that this was a horrible event for the people, black community and the city, and that a memorial would be appropriate for a litany of reasons.
We differ on the fact that a memorial is usually at least advocated by the victims of an event. It might be bolder and appropriate for the city to do so, but it is hard for many people to get behind the plan without a "victim" to sympathize with. People avoid unpleasant things and are not likely to 'remember them' on their own - even if they should.
We also have some level of disagreement on the effects of the riots. I agree that it was a devastating set back for the community but I am of the opinion that 80 years was enough to rebuild on their own. I understand it would have been easier and the right thing to do for the government to help them, but nonetheless, two generations is a long time to go with no progress.
and take heart, I never edit my posts without indicating that I have and in what manner (in the [edit]this is what I edited[/edit] fashion).
Thanks for the discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Thanks for your detailed replies Water. I think we understand each other point of view and I think I have discerned our basic difference. We both agree that general reparations would do little good, that this was a horrible event for the people, black community and the city, and that a memorial would be appropriate for a litany of reasons.
We differ on the fact that a memorial is usually at least advocated by the victims of an event. It might be bolder and appropriate for the city to do so, but it is hard for many people to get behind the plan without a "victim" to sympathize with. People avoid unpleasant things and are not likely to 'remember them' on their own - even if they should.
We also have some level of disagreement on the effects of the riots. I agree that it was a devastating set back for the community but I am of the opinion that 80 years was enough to rebuild on their own. I understand it would have been easier and the right thing to do for the government to help them, but nonetheless, two generations is a long time to go with no progress.
and take heart, I never edit my posts without indicating that I have and in what manner (in the [edit]this is what I edited[/edit] fashion).
Thanks for the discussion.
Now, lets hear more about that giant dog of yours. Any progress?
Giant Dogs? You mean the neighbor dogs that get out? Or my personal beasts?
My personal beasts aren't terribly large. Together the 2 of them are probably under 120 pounds.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Giant Dogs? You mean the neighbor dogs that get out? Or my personal beasts?
My personal beasts aren't terribly large. Together the 2 of them are probably under 120 pounds.
Compared to my scrawny little 20lb Schnauzer they are. I am mostly past my child raising, family guiding, career building phases. All I have left to bully around is my Schnauzer and he seems to like it. Not that it has anything to do with anything.
There is an old cliché that is silent in the intent of the tread. It is "Divide and conquer." Looking back over the history of the white people rioting against the North City it is self evident that the intent was to disburse the North City and leave it in such turmoil that it just would go away. These citizens had no funds to go somewhere and were forced to rebuild shelters that they called homes.
Yes in the 60's some of the business had rebuilt but these were closed and the buildings on Greenwood stood vacant for years. Why because the economy of the North city was suffering as it is today.
There are many stories during the rebuilding up to the 80's when people looked down on persons when they employed Blacks, even for servants. There are many stories that will never be told.
At the present, as pointed out by a previous poster, gunshot does not alarm the TPD or any other function in the North City. Dividing to conquer is in effect, being the aftermath of the intent of the total destruction north of the tracks.
As long as the gangs, killings, Shots, and drugs are everyday occurrences, then that is what the silent government of the city south of the tracks wants. With gangs presumed to number in the hundreds, if they came together, the smoldering ashes could again burst into flame. Then we would have reverse action.
Again it would be better to pour on the smoldering ashes the waters of reparation to those who are descendants and take away the threat that seem about to burst into flame.
When one becomes a resident of a city they become obligated for the debts of the city and they have no grandfather clause to stand behind.
Huh?
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
At the present, as pointed out by a previous poster, gunshot does not alarm the TPD or any other function in the North City.
[/quote
I work in North Tulsa. Drive through on Harvard every day. East lunch on Lewis very often. OR find some BBQ on Apache. Never heard a gunshot in North Tulsa. Plus, it would be impossible to respond to a non discrete "gun shot" somewhere near. Do the cops just show up in the area and drive around asking everyone if they heard something that might have been a gunshot until they learn it was a backfire? Unless it is "so and so at blank shot at X" it is impossible to do anything. I hear what I think are gun shots on occasion at my house, they probably arent.
quote:
Dividing to conquer is in effect, being the aftermath of the intent of the total destruction north of the tracks.
The difference being a few on the North Side are diving the many with crime, violence and drugs. I have yet to see the news story of "3 White Union High Teens Drove into North Tulsa Today to Shoot Black People." The North Side's crime is within the North Side Community, it is not influenced from outside and it will be difficult for the outside to stop it. (REFERENCE: man in the north side agreed to participate in a murder investigation. He got shot yesterday.)
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As long as the gangs, killings, Shots, and drugs are everyday occurrences, then that is what the silent government of the city south of the tracks wants.
Other than a north side precinct, increased presence, federal help, drug stings, and murder investigations - yep, the government is silent. Propose a solution and perhaps they will listen.
quote:
Again it would be better to pour on the smoldering ashes the waters of reparation to those who are descendants and take away the threat that seem about to burst into flame.
Black people of North Tulsa! Take some money and then stop doing drugs and killing each other. Thank you.
For some reason, I'm not thinking that will work too well.
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When one becomes a resident of a city they become obligated for the debts of the city and they have no grandfather clause to stand behind.
No resident of Tulsa is liable for any of the debts of the city. The city, as a public entity, is responsible for those debts and may declare bankruptcy or default independent of the assets of any of its residents. No grandfather clause is needed.
Not to mention the fact you are arguing for the creation of a liability, no such financial liability currently exists.
CF says;
No resident of Tulsa is liable for any of the debts of the city. The city, as a public entity, is responsible for those debts and may declare bankruptcy or default independent of the assets of any of its residents. No grandfather clause is needed.
Sometimes I get the idea that many citizens believe they are in la la land and in their dreams place the governing bodies on pedestals. Cities are made up of corporate bodies and can sue and be sued. It is the citizens and residents that are liable for the corporate body through a little word "Taxes". A city is not a "for profit venture" and should be guided by the residents who support the total functions of the city.
I do not see where I am trying to establish liability when the city creates the liability that also fall on the shoulders of new citizens that moves into the city. No resident is shielded from liability .
Ever hear the phrase "Government by the people"?
With a near nine trillion national debt and increasing, it might be advantageous to declare bankruptcy and include the billions of dollars the 400,000 that the city residents are being strapped with.
Shadows:
I'm not arguing with you, I am telling you. As a matter of fact and law, citizens of a city ARE NOT liable for its debts. We are liable for the taxes the city levies on our property, income, or expenditures and thus, we end up paying for the debts. But we are not liable for them.
Do you see the difference here? I can voluntarily move to OKC and POOF, not more debt burden for me. I can run my credit check and I have no dings for "400mil in City of Tulsa debt burden." The citizens end up paying for it, but it is the entities debt.
and no, declaring bankruptcy is a bad idea for a public entity. Orange County could get away with it because they have the tax base to make it work, Tulsa does not nor is Tulsa under any life threatening debt load. A nation, as you propose, declaring bankruptcy is a tottaly and utter disaster for the nation state and the populace ( by virtue of a collapse economy).
CF quoted:
I'm not arguing with you, I am telling you.
______________________________________
In the real world that some of us live in, the individual owns nothing as all property is rented from various governments. (City, State and Federal) We can use and have certain right to occupy such property as long as we pay a cute substitute word called taxes. If you do not pay this rent then they will take your property and give it to someone else who will pay the rent. (taxes)
Yes it is the law that this liability of the corporate political body to make the renter of the property liable for the debts through bond issues and operational budgeting. Every issue proposed to increase the debts or create more, in the real world, is an increase on the rent to use the property.
Very few today live in the real world. [:D]
I applaud your unique perspective on property taxes. But it has a flaw.
What of the citizens that do not own property in Tulsa and are either exempt from sales tax or shop elsewhere to avoid it? All of a sudden they are not liable. Wow.
There is a difference between having to pay for something and being liable for it. If it is a true liability, you cannot just avoid paying it by shopping somewhere else or moving out of town.
I understand your concept, the issue is dead.
While the huge sucking sound in east Tulsa continues, I will tell you that the race riot museum needs to be here for the mere importance of teaching tolerance.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I applaud your unique perspective on property taxes. But it has a flaw.
What of the citizens that do not own property in Tulsa and are either exempt from sales tax or shop elsewhere to avoid it? All of a sudden they are not liable. Wow.
I understand your concept, the issue is dead.
Good buddy I am unaware of any place where a person is exempted from sales, use or property tax even through the third person and I have not seen anyone put pontoons under their house and send it down the Arkansas River, now at high tide. Until I do so I believe the topic should die a quick death.[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
I have not seen anyone put pontoons under their house and send it down the Arkansas River
You can move out of the city and not pay. You can rent and therefor not pay. You can live in Osage county, and therefor not pay.
Who said anythign about floating a house?
As a matter of law, citizens are not personally liable for the debts of their governments in the United States or under international law. Period.
/QED
If I am permitted to point out the renter pays property taxes through the third party, They are paid to the leasing agency in rent, to the property owner, who rebates the renters portion to the city, through the county millage split. Everything is well covered and the free lunch has been taken off the bar long ago.
One can move out of the city and not pay taxes but when one moves into the city they pay taxes on the liability that the city created.
(In checking the timing of posts I assume some posters are PR persons)
Taxes are not paid to offset liability, such as someone "assuming" the debt of another, which is what you are implying. Taxes can be imposed upon citizens without "debt" even being a factor. A city is free to levy taxes apart from any specific purpose for the taking of those taxes and they can be used as the city sees fit.
We are not repaying a "debt" when the city collects taxes. You're walking an impossibly thin line with your comparison that just doesn't analogize.
Also, the renter does not pay property tax. If the homeowner fails to pay taxes the city will look to collect from the owner, NOT the renter. The renter is under no duty to ensure that property taxes are paid. It's a hopless splitting-of-hairs to state that rent money is used by the owner to pay that tax so the renter is actually paying the taxes...
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Taxes are not paid to offset liability, such as someone "assuming" the debt of another, which is what you are implying. Taxes can be imposed upon citizens without "debt" even being a factor. A city is free to levy taxes apart from any specific purpose for the taking of those taxes and they can be used as the city sees fit.
We are not repaying a "debt" when the city collects taxes. You're walking an impossibly thin line with your comparison that just doesn't analogize.
Also, the renter does not pay property tax. If the homeowner fails to pay taxes the city will look to collect from the owner, NOT the renter. The renter is under no duty to ensure that property taxes are paid. It's a hopless splitting-of-hairs to state that rent money is used by the owner to pay that tax so the renter is actually paying the taxes...
I am sure you are aware of the Oklahoma Statues detailing the conditions that are available to municipalities to access and limit the collection of taxes subject only to the budgeting procedure. Under very vague circumstances would the renter be liable for the property taxes. Thus this obligation falls on the property owner (although the renter can vote to increase the taxes)whereas govern bodies look to owner for the taxes. It being your assumption that bond issues are not liabilities assessed against the citizens?
Does the city takes on an identity separate to that of the citizens?
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Originally posted by shadows
Does the city takes on an identity separate to that of the citizens?
Yes. The same way a corporation has an identity separate from shareholders. Except instead of being 'owners' of the city, residents are merely have the right of participation. But regardless, yes, cities have separate legal identities from their citizens.