Gotta love the way we make headlines again on MSNBC...[B)][:P]
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19466978/
Turmoil in Tulsa: The illegal immigration wreck
For reader, accident with apparent illegal alien crystallized city's changes
Tulsa torn
While the tough stance on illegal immigration taken by the state and the city of Tulsa is celebrated by some, it also sparks fears of racial profiling.
Most viewed on MSNBC.com
By Kari Huus
Reporter
MSNBC
Updated: 2 hours, 26 minutes ago
In our first Gut Check America vote, thousands of readers around the country rated illegal immigration as the issue of most concern for them. Among them was Gary Rutledge, a Tulsa, Okla., college professor who wrote about being involved in a traffic accident with an apparent illegal immigrant. Here is our report on what we found when we traveled to Tulsa to follow up on his story:
TULSA, Okla. - "Our sovereignty is under direct attack," warns a commanding voice emanating from a pool of light in the corner of an otherwise dark airplane hangar. Dan Howard, an airplane salesman by day, is in the middle of his weekly two-hour radio show titled Outraged Patriots, a nighttime broadcast devoted entirely to the topic of illegal immigration.
Howard, who charges that the U.S. government is failing in its duty to protect the country from a "silent invasion" by illegal immigrants, taps into a deep vein of anger and unease in this conservative south central city, where many longtime residents feel besieged by a recent wave of mostly Hispanic newcomers.
That rising tide of resentment is palpable in the city's Latino community.
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At Plaza Santa Cecilia, a mall filled with Latino shops in East Tulsa, business is down as much as 40 percent, vendors say.
"It's very quiet," said Edith, a 17-year-old shopkeeper who didn't want to give her last name. "Everyone is staying home because of this immigration stuff."
The tensions of Tulsa mirror those in many other U.S. cities that have experienced sharp increases in Hispanic immigration in recent years. But other factors are at work here as well.
City on the leading edge
Tulsa is on the leading edge of local and state efforts to crack down on illegal immigration following passage by the Oklahoma Legislature of what is arguably the toughest anti-illegal immigration measure in the nation. The Tulsa City Council also embraced the get-tough approach by adopting a resolution calling on police officers to check the immigration status of "all suspected illegal aliens."
Those actions have sparked a fierce political battle, spread fear among Hispanics — both legal residents and those in the country illegally — and triggered an angry public face-off between demonstrators on either side of the great divide.
Among the longtime residents shaken by the changes engulfing his city is Gary Rutledge, an MSNBC.com reader who said the demographic shift took his family and friends by surprise.
"It's happened so quickly and our neighborhoods have changed so rapidly," said Rutledge, a political science professor at nearby Rogers State University.
In East Tulsa, just across the main thoroughfare from his comfortable brick home, the broad avenues are now peppered with signs in Spanish and malls catering to Latino shoppers — offering everything from soccer wear and piñatas to check cashing services and Latin pop music.
"That whole part of the city has become a miniature Juarez or Tijuana or whatever you want to call it," said Rutledge.
Like many longtime residents, Rutledge is quick to say that he is not opposed to immigration by legal means. But he says he objects to being unwillingly taken over by another culture as the result of unchecked illegal immigration.
"I'm very concerned that this last wave (of immigrants) has no interest in becoming Americanized," he said.
Fallout from federal inaction
It was Rutledge's story of a car crash involving an apparent illegal immigrant that led MSNBC.com to Tulsa. But when we arrived we encountered a bigger pileup: the chaotic fallout of a federal framework that neither prevents illegal immigrants from entering the U.S. to work nor provides a way for them to gain legal status.
That Catch -22 has forced local jurisdictions like Tulsa to seek their own solutions to the explosive and complex issue.
"Increasingly, because there's no consistent federal law, states and cities are cobbling together immigration laws on their own," says Sheryl Lovelady, assistant to Tulsa Mayor Kathy Taylor. In Tulsa, Lovelady said, such laws "have caused a lot of confusion, inconsistency and fear, mainly in the Hispanic community."
AMERICA'S MELTING POT
State-by-state look at where immigrants live
Tulsa, a city built on oil some 500 miles from the Mexican border, has a population of just over 380,000, including about 40,000 Latino or Hispanic residents, according to 2005 Census estimates. The pace of Hispanic immigration has been quickening, and local newspapers and politicians believe the number is now closer to 50,000.
John Brecher / MSNBC.com
Gary Rutledge, a political science professor who lives in Tulsa describes a traffic accident that focused his attention on the issue of illegal immigrants in his community.
For Rutledge, a car accident personalized the issue. He and his wife were waiting in their pickup at a traffic light one evening when they were hit from behind by a vehicle traveling about 30 miles an hour. They not badly hurt, only stunned.
More shocking, though, was what they heard from the police officer who responded to the accident: The other driver, a young Hispanic man, did not speak English, did not have a driver's license or insurance. The officer suspected the man was an illegal immigrant, Rutledge said, but he did not check his immigration status because such inquiries weren't allowed in misdemeanor cases.
Before taking the other driver to jail, Rutledge said, the officer told him he should just go home and forget about it.
'There's not much to be done'
"He said, 'We do a lot of this kind of thing and we can tell you that there's not much to be done about it,'" Rutledge recalled.
It's not clear what happened to the suspect after that. Tulsa police were not able to locate an accident report on the incident.
But officers said that the maximum penalty the man could have faced for driving without a license, a misdemeanor, would be 30 days in jail. Driving without insurance is only a ticketable offense.
Rutledge said he was floored by the experience. Not only would his own insurance company have to absorb the cost for repairing his truck, but the other driver was soon going to be back on the streets.
"It was ... a feeling of helplessness," he said. "There's no recourse, there's nothing to do."
Rutledge began comparing notes with friends and family and found that many had a similar story with a similar outcome. That got him thinking about the bigger picture.
"I think that when someone comes in this country illegally, it starts a tradition or culture," he said. "You come in illegally; everything you do from that point on is illegal. And so it's almost impossible to get a driver's license or insurance so you just start breaking one law after another. I think it's seductive. I think after a while ... you don't pay too much attention to rule of law that this country was established on."
Thanks for posting that. A very intresting article. I live in Ohio over 1,000 miles from the Mexican border and we too are flooded hard with illegals. Much of the flood came fast and seemed to start right after George Bush became president. My guess is Bush told the border guards to stand down and go easy and not to enforce the laws on immigration. The result was a huge flood of illegals. We do not need new immigration bill, we just need to enforce our current laws. President Ike in the 1950's had the borders secure. President Ike had no tolerance for illegal immigration. He deported the illegals as fast as they came across. if Ike could do that in the 1950's Bush could enforce the immigration laws today, but he does not, for some reason the gov't wants illegals here. The sad part of the story posted above and the car accident is the huge cost of having the illegals here. To grant amnesty will cost our nation $2.4 Trillion dollars. This really just frosts me.[xx(]
American business wants workers and Mexican workers want jobs.
Until something happens to change that basic fact, the underlying problem will drive the issue on.
You have to add the photo!!! It's so dramatic!
(http://www.law.utulsa.edu/Unused/gotu/tulsaturmoil.jpg)
Officer Mark Wollmershauser should retire if he does not want to do his sworn duty and enforce the law.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Thanks for posting that. A very intresting article. I live in Ohio over 1,000 miles from the Mexican border and we too are flooded hard with illegals. Much of the flood came fast and seemed to start right after George Bush became president. My guess is Bush told the border guards to stand down and go easy and not to enforce the laws on immigration. The result was a huge flood of illegals. We do not need new immigration bill, we just need to enforce our current laws. President Ike in the 1950's had the borders secure. President Ike had no tolerance for illegal immigration. He deported the illegals as fast as they came across. if Ike could do that in the 1950's Bush could enforce the immigration laws today, but he does not, for some reason the gov't wants illegals here. The sad part of the story posted above and the car accident is the huge cost of having the illegals here. To grant amnesty will cost our nation $2.4 Trillion dollars. This really just frosts me.[xx(]
In truth, I believe we had less border patrol agents in the 1950's. Saying that Ike kept the borders clamped down and that's why we didn't have this problem back then isn't accurate.
The immigrants would come in at harvest time, generally live in tents or some sort of "dormitory" on the farmer's land then go back home with their money. We didn't offer them government hand-outs which made it attractive to move here. In the 1950's our economy was still largely dependent on union manufacturing jobs and assembly line labor. We didn't have a work or social environment which encouraged them to stay beyond a seasonal capacity. That's the best I can sum it up without going into an hours-long dissertation on the dissimilarities in the economies of 50 years ago and that of today.
I don't think you can blame one president for the tide. It's been an on-going problem for several decades. If someone was so inclined, they could draw the conclusion that it was Clinton's fault because he was buds with Don Tyson and we all know there are lots of Mexicans working in Tyson plants. Or better yet, let's blame it on Reagan since he called California home and we know there are a bunch of Mexicans picking grapefruit in California.
It's not that simple.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
American business wants workers and Mexican workers want jobs.
Until something happens to change that basic fact, the underlying problem will drive the issue on.
Then the solution is to make the businesses only want to hire a legal workforce by cracking down on those who hire illegals and severely punish them.For example we can treat them the same we do drug dealers. We slap them with huge fine,give them lengthy prison time,felony status,and confiscate their property and assets.As a added precaution so the individual won't be able to try to do the same **** again we deny him any future ability to own and operate a business. This solution would encourage state and local law enforcement to do sting operations since they would be able to use the seized the property and assets of someone guilty of hiring illegals which would encourage people to not hire illegals.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
American business wants workers and Mexican workers want jobs.
Until something happens to change that basic fact, the underlying problem will drive the issue on.
I figure if you have a strong back, we can us you, so welcome to America. But I would require them to learn and speak English, and have no qualms of denying them employment if they couldn't understand some basic English.
Then again, some of them speak English better than you may suspect.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070709_1__TheTu31077&breadcrumb=Breaking%20News
Tulsa County signs deal with federal immigration officials
By Kevin Canfield, World staff reporter
7/9/2007 3:54 PM
The Tulsa County Sheriff's Office is a step closer to becoming the first law-enforcement agency in the state to participate in a federal program that gives local officials the power to enforce U.S. immigration laws.
An agreement between the Sheriff's Office and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement approved Monday by the Board of County Commissioners provides training and computer equipment that will enable Sheriff's Office employees to place detainers -- or holds -- on suspected illegal immigrants.
"We're eliminating all those calls that we have (been making) and it gives us first-hand knowledge and information to make those decisions ourselves," Sheriff Stanley Glanz said Monday.
A detainer gives federal officials the chance to determine whether an individual has violated immigration law. Currently, the Sheriff's Office must call federal immigration officials, relay the information it has on an individual, and wait for a call back.
Glanz estimated his department makes 10 to 15 calls each weekend.
Thirty Sheriff's Office employees -- 10 deputies and a total of 20 detention officers and other workers inside the jail -- will begin four to five weeks of training Aug. 20.
Federal officials
will provide oversight of the program.
The training should be completed and the computer equipment in place by the end of September, Glanz said
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
American business wants workers and Mexican workers want jobs.
Until something happens to change that basic fact, the underlying problem will drive the issue on.
Then the solution is to make the businesses only want to hire a legal workforce by cracking down on those who hire illegals and severely punish them.For example we can treat them the same we do drug dealers. We slap them with huge fine,give them lengthy prison time,felony status,and confiscate their property and assets.As a added precaution so the individual won't be able to try to do the same **** again we deny him any future ability to own and operate a business. This solution would encourage state and local law enforcement to do sting operations since they would be able to use the seized the property and assets of someone guilty of hiring illegals which would encourage people to not hire illegals.
That's a great idea. Lock them up for years for being illegal. Prison overcrowding is already a huge problem all across the country due mostly to the ridiculous mandatory drug sentencing laws.
It would cost the taxpayers more to house them in prisons.
quote:
Originally posted by NellieBly
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
American business wants workers and Mexican workers want jobs.
Until something happens to change that basic fact, the underlying problem will drive the issue on.
Then the solution is to make the businesses only want to hire a legal workforce by cracking down on those who hire illegals and severely punish them.For example we can treat them the same we do drug dealers. We slap them with huge fine,give them lengthy prison time,felony status,and confiscate their property and assets.As a added precaution so the individual won't be able to try to do the same **** again we deny him any future ability to own and operate a business. This solution would encourage state and local law enforcement to do sting operations since they would be able to use the seized the property and assets of someone guilty of hiring illegals which would encourage people to not hire illegals.
That's a great idea. Lock them up for years for being illegal. Prison overcrowding is already a huge problem all across the country due mostly to the ridiculous mandatory drug sentencing laws.
It would cost the taxpayers more to house them in prisons.
He's talking about the Americans that hire illegals. The illegals themselves get tossed back over the river. And I agree with him; the people that hire them are the biggest part of the problem. If they couldn't get work here, they'd go home on their own.
Don't forget the slumlords.
Personally, I'm glad to see that illegals are fearing our new state laws. It's time to end the free ride.
I bout gagged on this section:
'Sullivan, among the Republicans strongly opposed to President Bush's immigration reform bill as too lenient, also was behind the city's move to crack down on illegal immigrants.
'At his urging, Tulsa's City Council passed a resolution in May that requires police officers to determine immigration status of "all suspected illegal aliens'' encountered in the course of their regular duties — a significant hardening of the current policy under which only those arrested on felony charges are checked.'
For Sullivan - who has never shied away from issuing self-congratulatory press releases - to suddenly assert the City's move was his work, is outrageous. In fact it was his inability to communicate that ICE needed data before they could authorize the office. Was it not Sherriff Glanz who asserted he could not get Sullivan, Inhofe, or Coburn to even return his calls about that Federal training money?
Sullivan as Meesta Beeg? Heh heh heh . . .
Tim, you ride Sullivan pretty hard. What's the deal? Are you one of the hundred or so people he beat up in high school?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Tim, you ride Sullivan pretty hard. What's the deal? Are you one of the hundred or so people he beat up in high school?
sullivan...beat someone up? hardly.
I just hope the guy gets an ICE office here in tulsa. we need a special ICE "gitmo" here for all the illegals. You'd see east tulsa empty out over night.[}:)]
There's talk about a public campaign to demand that Mayor Taylor, the City Council, the County Commission and Congressman Sullivan stop bickering and work together to request the federal Government look at establishing an ICE office in the lease space available in One Technology Center. Oh, and BTW, this is the recipe for making chicken salad out of chicken s#*t. You might want to write it down.
This is Congressman Sullivan's job.
I don't disagree that the city and county should work together to try to get him to do what he is supposed to do.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
This is Congressman Sullivan's job.
I don't disagree that the city and county should work together to try to get him to do what he is supposed to do.
The citizens look forward to the Mayor and the Council's support for an ICE office in the One Tech Center.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Tim, you ride Sullivan pretty hard. What's the deal? Are you one of the hundred or so people he beat up in high school?
sullivan...beat someone up? hardly.
I just hope the guy gets an ICE office here in tulsa. we need a special ICE "gitmo" here for all the illegals. You'd see east tulsa empty out over night.[}:)]
You obviously never had any encounters with him or his goon/thug buddies back in high school.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Tim, you ride Sullivan pretty hard. What's the deal? Are you one of the hundred or so people he beat up in high school?
sullivan...beat someone up? hardly.
I just hope the guy gets an ICE office here in tulsa. we need a special ICE "gitmo" here for all the illegals. You'd see east tulsa empty out over night.[}:)]
You obviously never had any encounters with him or his goon/thug buddies back in high school.
I don't know who this sullivan is. Are you saying that he was the school bully back in the day?
I dunno about being a school bully. But he certainly had run-ins with the cops.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=041024_Ne_A27_Detai3253
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
This is Congressman Sullivan's job.
I don't disagree that the city and county should work together to try to get him to do what he is supposed to do.
What a novel idea! Would have been nice for Sullivan to return the Sherriff's calls, and likewise would have been nice for him to put the word out that ICE needed data from the TPD to justify the office. But he was too busy sending out press releases and what not.
Remember, High Screwl was before his dramatic 'conversion' so all bets are off. I do not think his crowd has changed much, do you?