Poor Teddy, Poor King George.. Couldn't ramrod their perception of reality down our throats. It's just sad.. [^]
(http://drudgereport.com/bk.jpg)
Poor 'mercans, they be too stoopid to realize that that the North American Union is a reality, that implementation is just a matter of code enforcement.
For once, no matter what the outcome was yesterday it was a great example of democracy in action. The reason this bill was defeated was because the people of America made their voice heard. The switchboards in DC were swamped yesterday, and the politicians actually listened to their constituents yesterday and represented them for once instead of themselves. Quite an amazing day regardless of the outcome.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
For once, no matter what the outcome was yesterday it was a great example of democracy in action. The reason this bill was defeated was because the people of America made their voice heard. The switchboards in DC were swamped yesterday, and the politicians actually listened to their constituents yesterday and represented them for once instead of themselves. Quite an amazing day regardless of the outcome.
+1
I agree.
Lister, good photo. I can't figure out if Kennedy just crapped his pants or Bush had and Teddy was reacting.
This is good news. However, I still don't think these trolls in Washington get it. Talk of the Fairness Doctrine keeps getting louder and louder as Senators think talk radio is wielding too much influence.
I think on this issue, talk radio has been listening better to what the citizens want than our leaders have been.
Instant citizenship is no cure for the immigration problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Instant citizenship is no cure for the immigration problem.
There be no "cure". It's technically impossible and morally reprehensible to permanently export 12+ million illegals. Bush's "plan" is pragmatic. It doesn't pretend that exporting these people can be done. It offers documentation and legal residency under certain conditions. While also offering to secure the borders.
What Bush needs to do, is send down a border security bill that will close the borders ASAP. However, "pragmatic" can also be political. Bush is still wooing Hispanic voters, he's done it since he came into office. Bush won't send it down, and he would likely veto it if it came up.
Democrats get to watch on the sidelines. Dems aren't going to go out of their way to help out Bush, but I'd suspect enough would sign a simple border security bill for it to pass, and do this piecemeal.
After border security, all the Republicans can do is send up various versions of something related to ethnic cleansing bills, which won't pass. Leaving illegals in legal limbo, undocumented, untraceable, and continuing to grow in population. Maybe that's the "cure" you're looking for. Until the GOP pulls it's head out, that's about the closest thing to a "cure" you're going to get.
The Dems are in a strange predicament on this one. They are walking a dangerous line by simultaneously siding with a president with low approval ratings while also ignoring the outcry from the American people against this bill. There seems to be no good position for them to adopt. If they side with the president they win the approval of the illegals but piss off the American people, if they side with the American people they lose the support of millions of illegals. What a mess.
This should have been dealt with decades ago.
But, unlike the GOP, the Dems don't usually vote as a single block. Meaning, if Bush would send down a "border security" bill, there would probably be enough Dems to pass it. Maybe 40% of Dems.
Still, it doesn't matter. It's not going to happen. The GOP is only interested in making this about "amnesty", and Bush is only interested in "comprehensive." The GOP strategy could very well be to purposefully get nothing done on this specific issue, for the rest of the Bush term.
Bush could send a piecemeal bill about border security, but I doubt he's smart enough to do it.
He genuinely looked like he had the wind knocked out him after the bill failed a second time, although I'm not sure why a guy whose approval numbers are in the high 20s / low 30s would have any confidence about ramming ANY proposal through.
Democrat strategists have wanted Bush to fail because they want to capture the Latin demographic. If this had passed Bush would be a hero to Latins.
Has anyone noticed a slight inconsistency in building a wall at the border at the same time that we open up U.S. roads to Canadian and Mexican truckers? It's a provision of NAFTA that's been delayed for years now but I believe it's about to go into effect.
I want Inhofe, Coburn and Sullivan to get in touch with their friend Pete Wilson and ask him if there is a price to pay for institutionalized Xenophobia.
FWIW MC- the border fence bill passed last year and the funds are supposedly "in the account" to build 700 miles of fence. Why do we need yet another border security bill when the last one has not even been acted on?
I believe the hold up is attributed to enviro studies, anywhere from apathy to outrage by the Mexican Gov't (who gives three poops what they think?), and other assorted bureaucratic red tape.
I've been very clear on what I think a workable solution is. I'm not part of the "deport 'em all" crowd. It's ludicrous to think we can deport 12 to 20mm illegal aliens w/o crippling segments of our economy, causing severe inflation, and harming the human condition of millions of families.
There needs to be a sane path to citizenship for these people that doesn't amount to instantly making them American citizens- that is a poor solution as well.
I'll spare retyping my position on it, it's been on other topics we've broached the immigratin topic.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Lister, good photo. I can't figure out if Kennedy just crapped his pants or Bush had and Teddy was reacting.
This is good news. However, I still don't think these trolls in Washington get it. Talk of the Fairness Doctrine keeps getting louder and louder as Senators think talk radio is wielding too much influence.
I think on this issue, talk radio has been listening better to what the citizens want than our leaders have been.
Instant citizenship is no cure for the immigration problem.
I couldn't agree with you more Conan.
How are building a fence to keep illegals out and providing a highway for the free flow of goods not mutually exclusive ideas? There is no conflict nor inconsistency in doing both simultaneously.
Xenophobia [zeh'nuh-FOH-bee-uh]
Noun
[1] Conflated definition that is purposefully used by rabid liberals to convince people that enforcing immigration laws is, in fact, racism.
[2] Hatemonger, Hateful
[3] Bolweevil
And there's plenty more border to secure, besides the 700 miles. And part of it is partial funding. Pass a bill that secures the Mexican border now, and funds it. If walls take time, multiply border forces by 10. Whatever. Just do it, and stop screwin' around.
I think Bush's "comprehensive plan" is sane. Maybe the only sane thing he's offered his entire presidency. What's holding it up is the "deport them all" crowd and the "how we going to fund this without raising taxes" crowd. And to sit here and say:
quote:
Instant citizenship is no cure for the immigration problem.
That's not what Bush's plan is, as I'm sure you're fully aware.
Nothing will get done, until the GOP pulls it's head out and stops the cheerleading and rhetoric of stomping pragmatism for no apparent reason. Absolutely nothing will get done. If that's what you're looking for, congratulations. The only people I know of that should really dig this, are illegals.
Nobody trusts Congress or the President to actually do what they propose, and that is the biggest problem. There are tons of laws on the books that they aren't enforcing already. They funded 700 miles of border fence last year and where's that gotten us? I think only 50 miles of this fence has been built.
Why should they believe this new comprehensive amnesty plan to put millions of illegal aliens on the quick path to citizenship be any different? It's good that it was shot down in its present form. Any time that Ted Kennedy and Dubya are on the same team, it's a bad sign.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
And there's plenty more border to secure, besides the 700 miles. And part of it is partial funding. Pass a bill that secures the Mexican border now, and funds it. If walls take time, multiply border forces by 10. Whatever. Just do it, and stop screwin' around.
I think Bush's "comprehensive plan" is sane. Maybe the only sane thing he's offered his entire presidency. What's holding it up is the "deport them all" crowd and the "how we going to fund this without raising taxes" crowd. And to sit here and say:
quote:
Instant citizenship is no cure for the immigration problem.
That's not what Bush's plan is, as I'm sure you're fully aware.
Nothing will get done, until the GOP pulls it's head out and stops the cheerleading and rhetoric of stomping pragmatism for no apparent reason. Absolutely nothing will get done. If that's what you're looking for, congratulations. The only people I know of that should really dig this, are illegals.
Here's the problem as I see it with the Dems and Reps both. I don't think either side is interested in doing anything substantive at this point. This could be a tipping issue as to whom is in power after the '08 election.
It is such an overwhelming problem that there likely hasn't been any
real logistical research put into this other than what is politically expedient. It seems focus groups are guiding this legislation rather than common sense.
There is a sense of urgency because there is an overwhelming public outcry to do something about it. However, rushing through crappy legislation just to placate angry citizens and so some Senators can say they voted for it and so some Democratic Senators running for President (and Rep candidates can say they did or didn't support Bush on it) can say they voted for it is shameful.
With the '08 election beginning pretty much after the '06 mid-term, all anyone in Washington seems to care about is what is going to get their party into the WH in '08, and who is still going to have a job in the HOR and Senate. All anyone is worried about, IMO is not pissing off the present electorate whilst courting a new potential 12-20mm voting bloc for their own party.
I can't remember who said it, either Dennis Miller or Michael Savage: "All we need to do is start saying 'term limits'. Term limits are like kryptonite to a Washington politician."
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
Nobody trusts Congress or the President to actually do what they propose, and that is the biggest problem.
The GOP had six years of absolute power to pull it together, and couldn't. Surely you don't expect a bill to magic it's way into existence now, when you have bigger fish to fry like "Ted Kennedy."
This might have been your last chance. So pat yourself on the back, you guys accomplished nothing again, and will likely have to live with an insecure border and an increasing illegal population into infinity. You should be proud.
One of the few uses I figured I'd have for the GOP, and it turns out that on this issue, they're useless.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Here's the problem as I see it with the Dems and Reps both. I don't think either side is interested in doing anything substantive at this point. This could be a tipping issue as to whom is in power after the '08 election."
You're right on one part of that. It's one of the few wedge issues the GOP can own in 08. A "secure border" bill being passed, kills that issue. Struggling with "comprehensive" keeps it alive.
No reason to solve anything, if it's your only ammunition in 2008. Guarantee you, if a GOP is elected, it will be an issue in 2012 and 2016 as well.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
Nobody trusts Congress or the President to actually do what they propose, and that is the biggest problem.
The GOP had six years of absolute power to pull it together, and couldn't. Surely you don't expect a bill to magic it's way into existence now, when you have bigger fish to fry like "Ted Kennedy."
This might have been your last chance. So pat yourself on the back, you guys accomplished nothing again, and will likely have to live with an insecure border and an increasing illegal population into infinity. You should be proud.
One of the few uses I figured I'd have for the GOP, and it turns out that on this issue, they're useless.
I will pat myself on the back. Thanks
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Here's the problem as I see it with the Dems and Reps both. I don't think either side is interested in doing anything substantive at this point. This could be a tipping issue as to whom is in power after the '08 election."
You're right on one part of that. It's one of the few wedge issues the GOP can own in 08. A "secure border" bill being passed, kills that issue. Struggling with "comprehensive" keeps it alive.
No reason to solve anything, if it's your only ammunition in 2008. Guarantee you, if a GOP is elected, it will be an issue in 2012 and 2016 as well.
Bottom line is, the motivation in Washington needs to become solving problems, not garnering votes from the populace, agreed?
This didn't just become a problem in the last six years, it's been kicking around and slowly growing for the last 25 to 30 years. Hell, Ted Kennedy was the big proponent of Chain migration 40 some years ago.
This like Social Security has been passed along from one majority to the other. I'm not saying that to defend a GOP that was in the majority since 1994, it's to say I'm pissed at all the legislators who have served in the last 30 years for not dealing with the border problem before it came to loggerheads.
Yes. They need to figure this out. It's been far more pressing, IMO, since 911. So I don't fault everyone, and talking about what people did years ago doesn't make up for the fact that they're doing nothing now. Bush's bill is reasonable. Certainly more reasonable than never closing the borders, and never documenting folks that are already here. Certainly more reasonable than creating some massive machine to round up people and force them out.
It's past due. If it goes on too long, people will forget that this is about security. Then you'll lose the attention of way too many Democrats. It's simple math, and human nature to lose interest. Time is running out.
I don't think you guys realize how much traffic there really is moving across the border.
The Border States also are agricultural states and migrant workers (mostly undocumented workers) are a major labor component in this country. They harvest the crops. (Like the Okies used to when we were the illegals.) If you shut off the supply of migrant labor there will be major economic convulsions within weeks, leading to panic and economic collapse. What was that trade tariff you Republicans passed that threw us into the Great Depression?
On my cranky days I'm ready to see Tulsa humbled. But my money is here in the U.S. and I'm not ready to stand in a soup line because you hicks are afraid of foreigners.
I mean I understand irrational fear. After I had lived in large cities for a couple of decades I became fearful of people that live in small towns. Road trips were a problem because we only felt comfortable stopping in urban areas. But there comes a point where you have to say okay, I'm having this irrational fear but I'm not going to give in to it.
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
Nobody trusts Congress or the President to actually do what they propose, and that is the biggest problem. There are tons of laws on the books that they aren't enforcing already. They funded 700 miles of border fence last year and where's that gotten us? I think only 50 miles of this fence has been built.
Why should they believe this new comprehensive amnesty plan to put millions of illegal aliens on the quick path to citizenship be any different? It's good that it was shot down in its present form. Any time that Ted Kennedy and Dubya are on the same team, it's a bad sign.
Last time it happened we got no child left behind. I am glad this equally atrocious, un-funded, bureaucratic nightmare of a sovereignty stealing bill went down in flames. One more thing, massive deportations won't be necessary if we just get rid of the incentives for illegal immigration and get serious about enforcement illegal aliens will self deport as demonstrated by the Tulsa Whirled articles on the effects HB 1804 is having on the businesses that support the illegal alien population before even being enacted without a dime spent on enforcement. As the illegal aliens leave, facilitate and expedite legal immigration to replace them at the rate of attrition with the honest legal immigrants who have been patiently waiting in line. We should build the fence to secure the border, reward legal immigration, and severely punish illegal immigration. This is the comprehensive immigration reform that the overwhelming majority of Americans demand to solve this problem. I think the landmark HB1804 should become a model for immigration reform in other states and at the national level, much like our landmark meth bill that has drastically reduced the number of meth labs in the state by providing a common sense, inexpensive, simple, solution to an expensive, complex, problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I don't think you guys realize how much traffic there really is moving across the border.
The Border States also are agricultural states and migrant workers (mostly undocumented workers) are a major labor component in this country. They harvest the crops. (Like the Okies used to when we were the illegals.) If you shut off the supply of migrant labor there will be major economic convulsions within weeks, leading to panic and economic collapse. What was that trade tariff you Republicans passed that threw us into the Great Depression?
On my cranky days I'm ready to see Tulsa humbled. But my money is here in the U.S. and I'm not ready to stand in a soup line because you hicks are afraid of foreigners.
I mean I understand irrational fear. After I had lived in large cities for a couple of decades I became fearful of people that live in small towns. Road trips were a problem because we only felt comfortable stopping in urban areas. But there comes a point where you have to say okay, I'm having this irrational fear but I'm not going to give in to it.
Stop making empty threats about leaving and move if you hate it here so much. If you think you are going to get a majority of Oklahomans to cosign your open borders, amnesty, "jobs Americans won't do" bullsh*#t, you aren't just irrational, you're delusional. BTW, speaking in stereotypes while crying racism? Real classy.
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
Poor Teddy, Poor King George.. Couldn't ramrod their perception of reality down our throats. It's just sad.. [^]
(http://drudgereport.com/bk.jpg)
Hopefully people in those others states will toss the politicians out of office that tried to pass the McCain/Kennedy/Bush amnesty bill(S. 1639 and S. 1348 ) so that this BS doesn't happen again.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
Hopefully people in those others states will toss the politicians out of office that tried to pass the McCain/Kennedy/Bush amnesty bill(S. 1639 and S. 1348 ) so that this BS doesn't happen again.
What is going to happen is that when pusch comes to shove, their constituents will fall into line like lemmings. Will Tulsans vote against Inhofe or Sullivan for their support of CAFTA, or the wasteful Highway Bill? They sloughed off conservative critics like we were lepers, refused to debate the issues, hid like cowards.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/PeteWilson4.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/JohnSullivan.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/PeteWilson.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/TomCoburn.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/PeteWilson2.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/JamesInhofe.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/PeteWilson3.jpg)
Xenophobes join long list of history's boogy men
What an appropriate analogy, as both are figments of your imagination...
Back from Pamplona? Did you get to ride on a bull? [;)]
Good times had by all. I will post some pictures of the trip if anyone is interested. Running with the bulls was quite a rush, but the drunk tourists running alsong side were more of a danger than the bulls...
The funniest part was the running of the autobus, which was a group of dissapointed locals and tourists who ran in front of the first bus of the day after "Pobre de mi," to protest the fact that the bulls weren't running.
More partying and drinking than I care to recall. The favorite local drink the "kalimotxo" was something that tasted close to ferminted bull's urine (or what I would imagine it to be), which brings back another fond memory of 7 days of urine soaked walls and 6" of garbage that flooded the streets.
The bullfights were bloody, gratuitous, and a bit like a NASCAR race...the only fun part is waiting for a bullfighter to take one in the arse. A bit surreal as people were eating sandwiches and drinking champagne as someone was offing a bull three rows down, all the while the pena's play an odd mix of music from the standard spanish fare to bon jovi...go figure.
The only violence more gratuitous (or more ignorant) was the aussie fountain jumpers in plaza navarraria...FYI...it's never smart to fountain jump when everyone else has been up for 5 days straight, is completely wasted, and you're depending on THEM to catch you when you jump...
Post away, I'd love to see the photos.
One of the funnier emails I ever got from one of my friends who likes to forward humor was for a "little used digital camera someone needed to sell to pay medical bills". It went on to say, here's the last shot he took-
The photo was an extreme close-up of a bull with snot flying out his nose.
Pretty damn funny.