Hey gang, here's an idea about when they dig up that 1957 heap next month, they could put it on display for a while and then put it back in the vault for another 50 years and add some stuff from 2007 along with the stuff from 1957. Then in the year 2057 dig it out and display it at age 100 it'll really be something then a showroom new 100 year old car. They can also rebury it in 2057 for another 50 years and add items from the year 2057 and so on. That way each 50 years people can view this car. Just an idea. It'll give people in the far future to see this car.thanx.
Found an oddity. The Beryl Ford collection on the Tulsa library website shows a picture of a 1957 Plymouth:
http://opac.tulsalibrary.org/search/.b2020209/.b2020209/1,1,1,B/l856~b2020209&FF=&1,0,,1,0
or
http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A1472.jpg
All of the pictures I have seen of the alleged car besides this one showed a two door hardtop Belvedere. Such as the pictures here:
http://grsd.net/tulsarama/photo_gallery.htm
The Beryl Ford picture clearly shows a two door sedan Plaza. Which one is the buried car? I'm guessing it is the 2 door hardtop. Guess we'll find out on the 15th.
I think you can rest assured that the car in the ground is the hardtop Belevedere. The burial was sponsored by Chrysler Corp., and the local Tulsa Chrysler/Imperial/DeSoto/Dodge/Plymouth dealers; they may have had the full line-up of 1957 Chrysler products on display in conjunction with the burial to take advantage of the publicity. This is probably where those pictures of the Plaza model come from.
If my memory is correct, the top Plymouth trim level around that time was the Fury, followed in decending order by the Belevedere, Savoy, and the lowly Plaza. All more or less the same car with the Fury and Belevedere offering larger engine options and fancier trim.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Hey gang, here's an idea about when they dig up that 1957 heap next month, they could put it on display for a while and then put it back in the vault for another 50 years and add some stuff from 2007 along with the stuff from 1957. Then in the year 2057 dig it out and display it at age 100 it'll really be something then a showroom new 100 year old car. They can also rebury it in 2057 for another 50 years and add items from the year 2057 and so on. That way each 50 years people can view this car. Just an idea. It'll give people in the far future to see this car.thanx.
A nice thought, but the car rightfully belongs to the 1957 contest winner (or his heirs) that most closely predicted Tulsa's population in 2007. What the winner chooses to do with it is completely up to him.
Hey gang does anyone know the color of the car buried? All the pictures are in B&W. It looks like it's 2-tone car. They say they also put alot of other goodies inside the vault.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Hey gang does anyone know the color of the car buried? All the pictures are in B&W. It looks like it's 2-tone car. They say they also put alot of other goodies inside the vault.
This has been well-covered in previous threads here and on other web sites, but the car is a gold/white or gold/cream colored two-tone scheme.
Included in the vault is a supply of DX gasoline and motor oil and a case of beer! The sealed time capsule in the trunk has the microfilm with the contest entries, a pack of cigarettes, a bottle of tranquilizers, an unpaid parking ticket, lipstick and compact (items that were deemed to be the typical contents of a ladies purse in 1957), about $2.50 in cash, and probably many more items that I can't recall. The winner of the car also gets a $100 1957 bank savings account that is worth $500-$600 today. The bank account was finally located and still exists, according to the Tulsa Centenial Commission.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
If my memory is correct, the top Plymouth trim level around that time was the Fury, followed in decending order by the Belevedere, Savoy, and the lowly Plaza. All more or less the same car with the Fury and Belevedere offering larger engine options and fancier trim.
You are correct. The Fury was a high-performance model from 1956 to 1958, with a more powerful engine and only came as an offwhite 2 door hardtop with gold trim. The Belvedere and Savoy came in two and four door sedans and hardtops as well as a Belvedere convertible. Plaza only came in 2 and 4 door sedans IIRC.
I want an old Savoy hardtop. "Savoy" is the most ridiculous name for a car ever, and for that I want one.
quote:
Originally posted by bugo
I want an old Savoy hardtop. "Savoy" is the most ridiculous name for a car ever, and for that I want one.
I think Plymouth's names came from fancy hotels of the world: The Savoy in London, the Plaza in NYC, etc. Pretty fancy names for bare-bones autos; probably a marketing tool to invoke a little cachet and imaginary prestige into a dull product. After all, Plymouth was Chrysler's poor man economy line, like Chevy was to GM. Chevy used names like Bel Air and Biscayne for the same reasons.
I think reburying the car would be a great idea. The car will be a novelty for a while but will soon be forgotten... if buried, it CAN be forgotten and still serve a purpose.
Would be very cool IMHO.
What year did they bury the Prowler? Was it for the Tulsa Centenial in '98?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I think reburying the car would be a great idea. The car will be a novelty for a while but will soon be forgotten... if buried, it CAN be forgotten and still serve a purpose.
Would be very cool IMHO.
I agree. I think this car is just to valueable today to give away. We have a great opportunity to dig it up and display it and then re-bury it for future people to enjoy. Dig it up every 50 years to check on it and to let people see it. It's a big chance for the people of the far future to see a showroom new 1957 car. At each dig up they can add items to the vault of that year . The people of 1957 thought of the future and gave us this big gift and we should pass it on to others. They never knew in 1957 how valueable this car would be in 2007.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I think reburying the car would be a great idea. The car will be a novelty for a while but will soon be forgotten... if buried, it CAN be forgotten and still serve a purpose.
Would be very cool IMHO.
I agree. I think this car is just to valueable today to give away. We have a great opportunity to dig it up and display it and then re-bury it for future people to enjoy. Dig it up every 50 years to check on it and to let people see it. It's a big chance for the people of the far future to see a showroom new 1957 car. At each dig up they can add items to the vault of that year . The people of 1957 thought of the future and gave us this big gift and we should pass it on to others. They never knew in 1957 how valueable this car would be in 2007.
Regardless of the car's value (remember, it may be a worthless pile of decay & rust), it legally and ethically belongs to the winner or the winner's heirs to the 1957 contest. To not offer it first to the contest winner would go against the intent and wishes of the 1957 Tulsarama planners and totally renege on their promises to Tulsa citizens in 1957. That would be unethical and dishonest.
Now, if the contest winners do not come forward, or they offer to rebury the car for another 50 years, that would be a nice gesture. Then again, who is going to pay for the preparation & reburial? Seems they had a hard enough time getting the funds just for the 2007 dig. I think that if no contest winners can be located, or if they do not want the car, it should go to the Tulsa Historical Society for permanent display.
...which brings up the question,
Why are we not also burying another timecapsule to replace the one we're digging up?
Oklahoma's Centennial would seem an appropriate time to leave traces of the first 100 years for future generations.
Besides, a contest of some kind to develop a list of items to be included would be fun. It would also give old timers and long time T-Towners a chance to pass on some of their sentiments and treasured possessions.
Then, there's the question of where to bury it since the City Plaza area is in danger of becoming substantially more commercial.
In the Indian?
An island in the river?
Centennial Walk?
Lorton's Lawn?
Assuming no one comes forward and it is in decent shape, whadya bet one of the Chrysler dealers winds up offering to buy it and display it at their showroom?
I would bet that vault stayed dry and the heap is indeed in showroom new shape. If they cannot find the winner or next of kin I wonder if they will pick the next closest winner? However, I think it should be reburied or put in a Museum. This is really a once in a lifetime thing, a part of history saved as it was. This car is worth a ton of money- I just think it needs to be passed on to future people to enjoy like we are as the date aproachs.- Think of the excitement in June, 2057 when they dig up this showroom new Plymouth from 1957 a 100 year old car! We can add stuff from the year 2007. I think that's the way to go, but that's just me.
It is important that when they do a time capsule they keep good records of it and have multi-records in other places as a back-up so it won't be forgot... and up date those records everytime they upgrade computer systems, so it won't be lost. Back in the 1990's in Columbus, Ohio some const. workers came across a lost time capsule as they were tearing down a building, no one knew anything about it and the contents were all ruined and wet. They think it was from the early 1900's.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
It is important that when they do a time capsule they keep good records of it and have multi-records in other places as a back-up so it won't be forgot... and up date those records everytime they upgrade computer systems, so it won't be lost. Back in the 1990's in Columbus, Ohio some const. workers came across a lost time capsule as they were tearing down a building, no one knew anything about it and the contents were all ruined and wet. They think it was from the early 1900's.
I remember hearing years ago that it was common for the cornerstone of a building to be hollow and to be used as a time capsule. The construction workers, owner, contractor, etc. would all put items in from the day.
I don't know if that's true or urban legend, but that would mean there are a lot more time capsules out there.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I remember hearing years ago that it was common for the cornerstone of a building to be hollow and to be used as a time capsule. The construction workers, owner, contractor, etc. would all put items in from the day.
I don't know if that's true or urban legend, but that would mean there are a lot more time capsules out there.
Yes, I think that was not an uncommon practice, but usually done with common things like newspapers or proclamation certificates, not a full-sized automobile.
Now, I heard once about this crew that was tearing down an old skyscraper. In the hollow cornerstone they found this box, and in the box was an alive frog with a beautiful, human singing voice! "Hello, Ma Baby! Hello, Ma Honey! Hello, Ma Ragtime Gal..."
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I remember hearing years ago that it was common for the cornerstone of a building to be hollow and to be used as a time capsule. The construction workers, owner, contractor, etc. would all put items in from the day.
I don't know if that's true or urban legend, but that would mean there are a lot more time capsules out there.
Yes, I think that was not an uncommon practice, but usually done with common things like newspapers or proclamation certificates, not a full-sized automobile.
Now, I heard once about this crew that was tearing down an old skyscraper. In the hollow cornerstone they found this box, and in the box was an alive frog with a beautiful, human singing voice! "Hello, Ma Baby! Hello, Ma Honey! Hello, Ma Ragtime Gal..."
I heard that too, that tune was also sung in the old movie "Rollercoaster" from 1976 staring George Segal, as he was chasing the bad guy thru a amusement park he came upon a bunch of frogs singing that tune. I think they did put alot of time capsules in the corner stones of buildings in the past, but I don't think they still do that.
^
Steve wrote
"Yes, I think that was not an uncommon practice, but usually done with common things like newspapers or proclamation certificates, not a full-sized automobile."
So that's what happened to Jimmy Hoffa......
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I remember hearing years ago that it was common for the cornerstone of a building to be hollow and to be used as a time capsule. The construction workers, owner, contractor, etc. would all put items in from the day.
I don't know if that's true or urban legend, but that would mean there are a lot more time capsules out there.
Yes, I think that was not an uncommon practice, but usually done with common things like newspapers or proclamation certificates, not a full-sized automobile.
Now, I heard once about this crew that was tearing down an old skyscraper. In the hollow cornerstone they found this box, and in the box was an alive frog with a beautiful, human singing voice! "Hello, Ma Baby! Hello, Ma Honey! Hello, Ma Ragtime Gal..."
That was a cute cartoon. I remember that one as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I remember hearing years ago that it was common for the cornerstone of a building to be hollow and to be used as a time capsule. The construction workers, owner, contractor, etc. would all put items in from the day.
I don't know if that's true or urban legend, but that would mean there are a lot more time capsules out there.
Yes, I think that was not an uncommon practice, but usually done with common things like newspapers or proclamation certificates, not a full-sized automobile.
Now, I heard once about this crew that was tearing down an old skyscraper. In the hollow cornerstone they found this box, and in the box was an alive frog with a beautiful, human singing voice! "Hello, Ma Baby! Hello, Ma Honey! Hello, Ma Ragtime Gal..."
That was a cute cartoon. I remember that one as well.
"One Froggy Evening" Warner Bros. 1957, I believe. 1957 must have been a good year for cartoons and burying cars. And births too, since that was the year I was born. I wonder now if either of my parents entered the contest to win the car; they both died 30+ years ago so if they entered and won, the car would go to me and my brother. I think they are going to publish the list of entries in the World, retrieved from the microfilm if still readable.
Maybe that frog will hop out of the trunk of the 1957 Plymouth when they open it up and give us a show!
Hey gang on another forum they were talking that some people "in the know" were saying that the vault is flooded, most posters on that forum think it's just a rumor, but the word is/was that someone did a "sounding" on the vault and found it full of water, and another rumor is that when they dug down to it last week to do some prep. work on the vault lid someone drilled a small hole and sliped a camera in there to look. I don't believe none of that, I'd bet, and my money is on the old heap being dry and showroom new. (It's also sealed in a plastic air tight bag too)-- Anyhoo, just thought I'd mention that and wonder if anyone else heard about such stuff. thanx.
Steve- That will be something if ya won the car, would ya keep it, or have it re-buried for another 50 years? Did your parents ever mention the car? If not it's not likely they made any guess to win it.. What if the microfilm is no long readable do they have any back up plans on what to do with the car?- I know it won't be me who wins the car, I lived in Michigan in 1957 and I was only 2 years old at the time. My parents never were in Tulsa. I'm outta the mix. I wonder how many people guessed, and what source will be used to get Tulsa's 2007 population? Tulsa lost population these past few years..I hope they decide to re-bury the heap for another future generation to enjoy in 2057.
This car will be worth a ton of money if it comes out showroom new. I can see court cases involving siblings or next of kin fighting over the ownership of the car should the person who guessed the wining population be dead. People may even fight over close population guesses and numbers and population sources.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
This car will be worth a ton of money if it comes out showroom new. I can see court cases involving siblings or next of kin fighting over the ownership of the car should the person who guessed the wining population be dead. People may even fight over close population guesses and numbers and population sources.
It's worth $16,800 in #1 condition. There are some adds for the 318 engine, A/C and PW. Maximum adds would give the car about another 45% in value, or roughly $23K
http://www.collectorcarmarket.com/menus/ccmprcs/57plbere.htm
There would be some subjectivity which comes into play when it comes to being 100% and having (I'd guess) less than 100 miles on it.
$20 to $50K tops, assuming it's well-preserved.
It's not like a '57 Corvette with fuel injection, just not as desireable.
I guess it all depends on what someone deems as a "ton of money".
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Steve- That will be something if ya won the car, would ya keep it, or have it re-buried for another 50 years? Did your parents ever mention the car? If not it's not likely they made any guess to win it.. What if the microfilm is no long readable do they have any back up plans on what to do with the car?- I know it won't be me who wins the car, I lived in Michigan in 1957 and I was only 2 years old at the time. My parents never were in Tulsa. I'm outta the mix. I wonder how many people guessed, and what source will be used to get Tulsa's 2007 population? Tulsa lost population these past few years..I hope they decide to re-bury the heap for another future generation to enjoy in 2057.
My family moved to Tulsa in the early spring 1957 from Dallas. Dad had joined the Sisk & Wakefield Insurance agency in Tulsa. Sisk later merged with Marsh & McLennan Insurance, now just called "Marsh." Dad was a VP with Marsh & McLennan when he suddenly died in Jan. 1971 from a heart attack. I don't know if my parents entered the buried car contest; I don't recall them ever speaking about it, but I have known about this buried treasure since I was a small child. I guess the only sure answer lies with the microfilm buried in the car. As far as I know, the only record of the contest entries is buried inside the car. Just to see their names among the list of contest entries would be a big thrill for me, whether or not it is the winning entry.
If my parent's entry is the winning one, the car would belong to me and my brother jointly, so its fate would not be my sole decision. I would prefer to donate it the the Tulsa Historical Society, if they would preserve it and keep it in climate-controlled display for the Tulsa public. If they did not want it, I would probably sell to a collector at the highest bidding. I think the chances are small that my parents even entered the contest, but I am dying to find out.
I think the rumors you heard about the vault being flooded are just unfounded rumors. They did uncover the top of the vault about a month ago to check the condition, and then covered it back up. No cracks, damage, or evidence of excess ground water was found from the top excavation. No holes were drilled or cameras inserted into the vault. Just wild hearsay and rumor. No one really knows until June 15, 2007.
The winning guess will be the June 1, 2007 U.S. Census Bureau's estimate of the City of Tulsa population. I assume that is just the city limits proper, and not the SMSA. I have not seen the official estimate, I assume it will be published along with the list of contest entries.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
This car will be worth a ton of money if it comes out showroom new. I can see court cases involving siblings or next of kin fighting over the ownership of the car should the person who guessed the wining population be dead. People may even fight over close population guesses and numbers and population sources.
It's worth $16,800 in #1 condition. There are some adds for the 318 engine, A/C and PW. Maximum adds would give the car about another 45% in value, or roughly $23K
http://www.collectorcarmarket.com/menus/ccmprcs/57plbere.htm
There would be some subjectivity which comes into play when it comes to being 100% and having (I'd guess) less than 100 miles on it.
$20 to $50K tops, assuming it's well-preserved.
It's not like a '57 Corvette with fuel injection, just not as desireable.
I guess it all depends on what someone deems as a "ton of money".
Assuming the car is in top shape, it may be worth 2 times or more the value of any other mint 1957 Belevedere, just because of the history and provenance as Tulsa's SemiCentennial buried car. It will be fascinating how this thing unfolds in the next few months. I just pray it is not a heap of rust.
From my point of view, this seems to be just about the biggest thing to hit Tulsa in many, many years. I understand news organizations from all over the world will be here for the unveiling. It is really nice for Tulsa to have some good, positive publicity for a change, and not be in the news for lost jobs, how fat we are, or our high rate of addiction to nicotine!
I think this car will be worth alot more than any book value, this car is brand new, all origional even the exaust system is showroom-factory new, the car should have hardly any miles on it. The seats, carpet, floor mats are all factory new & clean it should have everything a new 1957 car would of had in it's day except the new car smell.. Something like this classic bured car being dug up is rare. It's not done offten anyplace. Most time capsules are just full of nick-nacks and newspapers, and the like,- this car also would have an history as being buried & world-famous I think it'll be worth around $40,000 or more. People from around the world are coming to Tulsa to see this dig up.[:)]
Was it necessary to open the capsule ahead of time and inventory the contents? Was there something embarrassing inside?
...and if I take pictures (//%22http://buriedcar.com/media/Buried%20Car%20Media%20Credential%20Guidelines.rtf%22) are they gonna come get me? [:o)]
Well kids, the winning number was announced yesterday, 6-1-07. And the winner is:
382,457 !!!!
The U.S. Census Bureau's estimate of Tulsa's population (city limits proper, not the SMSA) on 6-1-07.
Whomever guessed closest to this number, or their survivors, will win the buried 1957 Plymouth Belevedere!
I can't wait to see the list of entries published in the paper. I am dying to know if my parents entered this contest. And in the small, slim chance that I would win the car (being as my parents are deceased), I would be glad to give everyone a free ride around town in it, for an appropriate fee, of course!
Made BoingBoing.net
BoingBoing post (//%22http://www.boingboing.net/2007/06/05/time_capsule_with_19.html%22)
Hey Gang- Turns out no one but VIP's the press and speical invites will be allowed on the site to view the dig-up in person. The area will be closed from 7th & Denver to 6th & Denver. Unauthorized people in the area will be arrested. They will show the dig-up live on TV at the convention center. The ones who have rooms at the YMCA across the street will be able to watch a byrds eye view of the event and they will be the only lucky ones.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Hey Gang- Turns out no one but VIP's the press and speical invites will be allowed on the site to view the dig-up in person. The area will be closed from 7th & Denver to 6th & Denver. Unauthorized people in the area will be arrested. They will show the dig-up live on TV at the convention center. The ones who have rooms at the YMCA across the street will be able to watch a byrds eye view of the event and they will be the only lucky ones.
Arrested?!?!?! This is a Tulsa thing. What a bunch of elitest snobs. I get there has to be a safe zone due to construction equipment, but making people pay $25 to be a part of Tulsa history is bogus. They should have done a lottery drawing for free viewing.
Boyd Coddington my donkey. No telling how many qualified mechanics there are in town who could get that old sled running and they want to bring in some quasi-celebrity. [V][:(!]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Hey Gang- Turns out no one but VIP's the press and speical invites will be allowed on the site to view the dig-up in person. The area will be closed from 7th & Denver to 6th & Denver. Unauthorized people in the area will be arrested. They will show the dig-up live on TV at the convention center. The ones who have rooms at the YMCA across the street will be able to watch a byrds eye view of the event and they will be the only lucky ones.
I have absolutely no problem with the dig site being closed to the general public. It is not a large street intersection and there is simply not enough physical room for everyone that wants to to be there. Of course registered press will be allowed and they have invited surviving persons that were involved in the 1957 Tulsarama and original burial to be present. The burial site will only acommodate about 400-500 people to view the exhumation live. You simply can't please everyone in this case.
The unearthing will be simulcast at the convention center, and broadcast live on CBS KOTV Ch. 6, starting at 7:00 PM I understand. The car will then be on display all weekend long, FREE to the public, along with the FREE classic car shows. I plan on watching the raising at home, from the comfort of my den sofa, and then go down on Saturday to see the car in person, assuming that something has survived that is worth seeing!
As mentioned before, KOTV is also doing a live internet show of the exhumation, for those that are not in Tulsa or in their TV viewing area.
I wish public would be allowed to view the dig up, But I know the area is tight and there's not much room. From what I understand the only people allowed to watch the dig up will be the press, VIPs, and invited guests like the people who were around in 1957 and guests of the VIPs. I guess they will close Denver from 7th street to 5th street. Anyone unauthorized in the area will be arrested, (no press pass or invite letter)From what I read they will dig out the heap and plop it on a trailor still in it's wrappings and wisk it away till 6pm. I hear "Hot Rod" will have a film crew there filming it for their TV show.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I wish public would be allowed to view the dig up, But I know the area is tight and there's not much room.
Right. The planners are doing the best they can. 20,000+ people or more trying to crowd themselves around 7th & Denver, everyone pushing and shoving for a view, would be a nightmare. Tempers would flare, and all it would take would be one crazy madman with a handgun to destroy the event, not to mention lives, for everyone. In this day and age when parents beat each other up at their kids sporting events, and encourage their spawn to do the same, I think the 2007 Tulsarama planners are doing the right thing by limiting access to the burial site.
Even the press & VIP's at the burial site will not see the uncovered car. It will remain in its wrapping, and trucked to the convention center for unwrapping and evaluation by the clean-up crew before it is paraded out to the live and TV audience.
Only 1 week to go!
There's been some rumors about the vault that I have seen on other forums that say things like VIPs have looked in the vault, and one rumor said some guy with sonar immaging scaned the surface of the vault and found it to be full of water, another is that a hole was drilled in the vault lid back in May and a camera sliped in and it was found to be full of water. Things like that. I myself think the vault is dry and the car will be brand new looking. I did hear that the '57 Plymouth was a very rust-prone vehicle though.
I heard the lid was scanned and intact.
Sonar is not going to tell a great diffrence between water and air. It is looking for differences in sound that would suggests edges and cracks or gaps, not testing density.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
There's been some rumors about the vault that I have seen on other forums that say things like VIPs have looked in the vault, and one rumor said some guy with sonar immaging scaned the surface of the vault and found it to be full of water, another is that a hole was drilled in the vault lid back in May and a camera sliped in and it was found to be full of water. Things like that. I myself think the vault is dry and the car will be brand new looking. I did hear that the '57 Plymouth was a very rust-prone vehicle though.
That is all completely untrue, wild hearsay and rumor out of hand. They did remove the dirt down to the gunnite vault lid about a month ago, to inspect for damage or cracks. No damage or cracks were found and they found the original lifting rings on the vault top intact to remove the top sections. No evidence of cracking or water damage was found, and they covered it back up for the final exhumation on 6-15.
I used to think that the car would be a big pile of rusty glop, but recent events make me think otherwise. This trumps anything OKC could have planned for the Oklahoma Centennial (and I think the 1957 Tulsarama folks were well aware of that!), and I can't wait for the dig. FIVE days and counting!
There was an article in today's Sunday Tulsa World with a man that has a restored 1957 Plymouth Belevedere, identical to the car buried here in downtown Tulsa. He claims his car is worth $75,000!
That's his opinion. Restored is seldom worth as much as all-original in pristine condition.
Unless he's got a very rare package (i.e. 392 hemi with a special induction system with power everything, etc.) he's the only one it's worth $75K to.
This is very exciting, the time is near to go and dig it out, it was a fast 50 years, seems like we just planted the car in the ground and now it's time to go and dig it out... I understand they will be using a 200,000 pound crane to lift out the 4,000 pound car. I think it'll be intresting if they could find and use the orgional crane that planted the car in the ground 50 years ago, but I guess that crane is long gone. I seen in the Tulsa newspaper that they have tons of back up plans just in case something goes wrong. I think it should be rather straight foward, I think the orgional metal platform should be OK to use that the car is sitting on, perhaps they even left the hook and the orgional "spreader bar" resting on top of the car just under the lid, everything may have been left attached and ready to lift out.
Yikez! I heard that they will remove the vault's lid on Tuesday and do test lifting on Wednesday. They will know by Tuesday if the vault is dry or flooded. The events Friday will be on channel 8 live.[:P]
Actully it's on channel 6 and the vault will come off for a bit of Wednesday and Thursday.
I have my tickets for the unveiling....Will try and get some pics to post....
Heck NO, it'll be worth around $50K according to talk I have been hearing about it and the article about it in the Tulsa World, if that comes out in mint showroom new, it'll be woth a ton. In fact one story said it's worth around $75,000 in the Tulsa Newspaper. (if the car is not rusty)
It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it.....
I heard they plan to raise the lid today (Tuesday), I hope the weather will stay dry. They will know then if the vault is dry or wet. I guess the whole city of Tulsa is rocking over this event. I wish I could be there.[:P]
Talked to the owner of the crane company today as they do some work for us. Thursday is the test lift.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Talked to the owner of the crane company today as they do some work for us. Thursday is the test lift.
That is intresting. Some posts I have been reading on other forums seemed to say they will lift out the whole vault with the car inside it and plop it all down on a truck and haul it out, but from what I understood it'll be only the car in it's wrap. The vault will stay in the ground. That is why they are poping off the lid. I wish I was a worker there chipping away at that lid gunnite, and watching that lid come off. The car inside the wrap will be opened at the C.C. at 6pm or 7pm whenever it is. The whole vault is not coming out of the ground I don't think.
Perhaps next time they should bury something big and cool such as another vehicle in the center of Skelly Stadium. Then more folks could get a look see when they dig it back up in 50 to 100 years.
Need to do it now, as the next Centenial will be on the same time frame. Wonder if they have plans to re-use the vault in the ground in downtown Tulsa.
The vault is like 6" thick concrete, it's not coming out anytime soon. Even the lid is in three parts for lifting.
Only the car and vault contents will be removed; the concrete vault will stay in the ground. What I have read and heard has said the vault will remain in the ground and be backfilled with dirt and relandscaped like nothing was ever there.
Some encouraging trivia: The concrete vault for the car was built by Max True's "True Gunn-All Corp." in Tulsa. In early 1956, the Max True company constructed my neighborhood swimming pool at 4941 E 26 St, Tulsa's first private neighborhood subdivision (Lortondale) pool. Except for pumps, filters, some exterior concrete decking replacement and annual painting of the pool walls & interior, our pool is exactly the same as in 1956, still open for swimming and now in its 52nd consecutive summer season. Speaks pretty well for the Max True company and their construction quality, so I would say chances are pretty good the car vault has held up and remained water-tight.
I understand that Mr. True is now 93 years young, and he will be in the viewing stands on Friday when the car is raised from the ground. If the car is still in half-way decent shape, we have Mr. True to largely thank for that.
I think it'll be a good idea to plant a 2007 vehicle in the vault to be dug up in 2057. Then the people of 2057 will have something exciting to look forward to. Seems a waste to just cover in the vault if it held so good.
There's some bad news coming from the site...
Rick Couri is there and reported seeing 3' of water in the vault and evidence that it has been completely submerged at times over the last 50 years.
Per KRMG radio, several feet of water inside. No mention of the other statement. Keep in mind the rain we had yesterday which I believe was after the seal was broken.
Fingers crossed that the plastic held.
I've personally heard from friends that work downtown that there are water marks on the walls.
Several people have taken a peek inside, and although the car is still covered, it doesn't look good. Some of the water marks are higher than the car, and there look's like old sediment on the cover.
Bad news indeed, I was really hoping the car would come out mint.
So they are digging the car up today? I thought it was supposed to be Friday?
Someone fill me in, clearly I'm in the dark and the buriedcar.com site is flooded with traffic and will not respond.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
So they are digging the car up today? I thought it was supposed to be Friday?
Someone fill me in, clearly I'm in the dark and the buriedcar.com site is flooded with traffic and will not respond.
They took the cap off today to do an intitial inspection. They're supposed to do a practice lift tomorrow.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Only the car and vault contents will be removed; the concrete vault will stay in the ground. What I have read and heard has said the vault will remain in the ground and be backfilled with dirt and relandscaped like nothing was ever there.
Some encouraging trivia: The concrete vault for the car was built by Max True's "True Gunn-All Corp." in Tulsa. In early 1956, the Max True company constructed my neighborhood swimming pool at 4941 E 26 St, Tulsa's first private neighborhood subdivision (Lortondale) pool. Except for pumps, filters, some exterior concrete decking replacement and annual painting of the pool walls & interior, our pool is exactly the same as in 1956, still open for swimming and now in its 52nd consecutive summer season. Speaks pretty well for the Max True company and their construction quality, so I would say chances are pretty good the car vault has held up and remained water-tight.
I understand that Mr. True is now 93 years young, and he will be in the viewing stands on Friday when the car is raised from the ground. If the car is still in half-way decent shape, we have Mr. True to largely thank for that.
Steve,
Maybe they should put a pump set and filter on the vault and turn it into a pool for downtowners. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
So they are digging the car up today? I thought it was supposed to be Friday?
Someone fill me in, clearly I'm in the dark and the buriedcar.com site is flooded with traffic and will not respond.
Its my understanding that they are preparing the vault for the final lift-out which is to happen at noon on Friday.
Unfortunately, part of that preparation is now pumping out water that is currently sitting in the bottom of the vault.
[:(]
Anyone else see Marlette's cartoon in the TW this morning?
'57 Belvedere (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?articleID=070613_7_A12_NoArt73431%22)
Hysterical
I just got back to the office from the dig site. As sgrizzle said "Fingers crossed that the plastic held." You can see the waterlines on the concrete vault where the has gone up and down over the years. It does not look good, but perhaps the bags did the trick...
Photos at...
Buried Car (//%22http://www.flickr.com/photos/47422262@N00/sets/1320520/%22)
Someone just told me that the site has now been covered. :(
Here are some pics from the site from earlier this morning...I shrank them because they were huge so you can't see as much detail, but I can post the larger ones if you like.
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/6933/car1resizejl5.jpg)
(http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8356/car2resizebp0.jpg)
(http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4691/car3resizeaa1.jpg)
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8299/car4resizeqj4.jpg)
And yes, the site is covered now. They put a tarp over the car itself and were in the process of putting up plastic on the fence I guess so people can't see it before it's unveiled.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
And yes, the site is covered now. They put a tarp over the car itself and were in the process of putting up plastic on the fence I guess so people can't see it before it's unveiled.
Looking at the way the sediment is settled on what i can only guess is the trunk or hood, it looks like it's sunken in...I'm thinking it's a pile of rust. [:O]
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
And yes, the site is covered now. They put a tarp over the car itself and were in the process of putting up plastic on the fence I guess so people can't see it before it's unveiled.
Looking at the way the sediment is settled on what i can only guess is the trunk or hood, it looks like it's sunken in...I'm thinking it's a pile of rust. [:O]
Unfortunately, it appears its value will be more as an archealogical curiosity than as an intact automobile . . . .
Photos (//%22http://www.flickr.com/photos/47422262@N00/sets/1320520/%22)
The sunken in look isn't promising. Just guessing that is the trunk from the contour of the plastic.[:(]
Its value is $50 a ton
I wonder if they leak tested the plastic wrap before they buried it. As in, put the whole unit under water or pressure test it with air to see if it leaked. God, I hope so.
There is SOME hope. The giant fins on the back end could make it look like it sunk. The hood is clearly in tact, as are the fins. Rust sinks (duh), so it is sediment that is on top of the car. Clearly not good, but not a death blow.
I hope this goes well or we will be on CNN for bad reasons.
Wow. What a disappointment. I've been waiting for this day since I was 10 years old. :(
I guess all along there has been a lot of speculation that this might be the case.
quote:
And what, exactly, will the lucky winner get when the car is unearthed in 2007? No one is really sure. Sitting on a steel skid, the white and gold car was wrapped in a cosmoline-like substance to help preserve it and then buried within a concrete bunker (The car was lowered into the vault several times prior to June 15 for photo shoots, one such photo ad appearing on page twenty-five of Life magazine's July 7 issue.) Twenty years after the cars burial, questions were raised as officials began to wonder if the vault would maintain its integrity for fifty years. Its location (marked by a bronze plaque on the courthouse lawn places it close to modern traffic. Buck Rudd, deputy chief of building operations for the county court house, mused in 1987, "There's a lot of traffic going by only 15 or 20ft from that thing. We've been curious to know it vibrations from the heavy traffic might have caused it to crack. If moisture starts getting in there, it's going to cause things to deteriorate over fifty years time," Rudd continued. Unknown to the committee - or anyone else then - 1957 Plymouths were terribly prone to rust. Asked what type of maintenance was done on the time capsule, Rudd replied, We just cut the grass on top of it."
www.plymouthbulletin.com/57plymouth.htm
I must say though, I'm all excited to see!
I agree with cannon_fodder, it's not a lost cause yet. I'm not so sure the "sunken" look is just the angles of the photo. I can pretty clearly see the outline of the intact car.
there is still hope...that it doesnt disintegrate upon lifting it out.
it just doesnt look good based on those pics. 45 years +/- of water damage....
[V]
Of course, now if a nice looking car is unveiled we can all conspire about a switch!
By the way, to any city officials reading this... it would be kind of embarrassing if it was s rust pile. So I wonder if you want *someone* to look for a 1957 to display should it come up as a pile of rust. You know, so people know what it should have looked like. Yeah, thats it.
Also, on an unrelated note, the new scrap medal recording guidelines have not gone into effect yet. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by grahambino
there is still hope...that it doesnt disintegrate upon lifting it out.
it just doesnt look good based on those pics. 45 years +/- of water damage....
[V]
I'm going to hold onto the last shred of hope until I see the thing. :) They wrapped it in plastic for precisely this reason I'm sure.
It's wrapped in plastic AND has some kind of coating sprayed on it doesn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by tulsa1603
quote:
Originally posted by grahambino
there is still hope...that it doesnt disintegrate upon lifting it out.
it just doesnt look good based on those pics. 45 years +/- of water damage....
[V]
I'm going to hold onto the last shred of hope until I see the thing. :) They wrapped it in plastic for precisely this reason I'm sure.
yeah, perhaps i was a bit too negative on that first post. obviously im just speculating on 45 years of damage.
though, i cant help but think would the weight of the water 'fuse' (for lack of a better term) the plastic to the paint of the car?
TulsaSooner: As I understanding it is coated in cosmoline (sp?). Which is essentially a REALLY think petroleum jelly commonly used to long store armored vehicles, rifles, and other items prone to rusting. If they did a good enough job you could damn near just set it on the street smeared with that stuff.
I've had the misfortune of importing some rifles stuffed with it.
On another note, what do you want to bet that EVERY single population estimate recorded on the microfilm in the vault will be way over what it currently is today.
Who would've thought that Tulsa's population would've declined over many of those years?
Cosmoline is an effective preservative if water doesn't get underneath it and it really only seems to be of benefit against condensation-type moisture- not sumbersion in water. If it does, it can make matters worse. I used to deal in surplus WWII era parts and still have quite a few things in the original packaging. If the box was mildewy, usually the part was still okay. If the box was submerged, it was usually junk.
Wasn't the car put up on jack stands, with steel i-beams on top of the stands which support the car? I'm assuming these were installed in the vault before the car, encased in the protective bag, was lowered into it? To me, the rust evidenced on the sides of the vault probably came from the steel exposed outside the bag. At least, I hope that's where it came from.
Eternal optimist here!
Good point Conan... they probably did not get to cosmo the inside of the body. Who knows. Just thinking on paper (screen).
Tulsa, Oklahoma (Associated Press) Tulsa is on the map as the buried car capitol of the world. With that in mind hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars will soon be spent to collect the remaining Dusenbergs for burial in a mass grave on the citys south side. It is believed covering the "Duseys" in a paste of road slat should keep them pristine. Not to be outdone Broken Arrow will bury the original Bill of Rights in a paper sack and unearth it fifty years from now in a state wide celebration. Asked if the paper sack would protect this most important document Broken Arrow mayor Richard Carter said "Probably".
Save the Prowler!
http://www.geocities.com/beamascope/classic_blue.html
I suggest next time we bury a boat.
I keep looking at some failry close photos and the overal structure seems intact. If you leave a car in a river for 5 years all you get is a couple of frame pieces left. This one has body panels intact.
The lack of air and lack of movement could've helped.
I want to see how "the great plastic bag" held up.
What if the pup they took out there last night was actual pumping water IN and this is all a publicity stunt?
I just picked up the new Urban Tulsa at lunch. (I had to go to Napoli's to pay for all the damage we did last Friday. They've replaced all the window panels we broke).
Page 15, the new aquarium ad is very prophetic:
"See what's underground!"
And...see what's underwater"
Photo-shopped pic of a Belvedere with a shark driving it.
UTW (//%22http://urbantulsa.com/currentissue.pdf%22)
Regardless of the condition (and it appears to be at least still in the shape of a car) - it's still pretty cool. There should be no damage to the plastic - as sgrizzle said, the water that got inside wasn't moving - no force to break the plastic (except the weight of the water itself) -
Here's hoping it's a "showable" car - fingers crossed.
Anyone living in this area that has owned a home with a basement or a multi-level home with part underground knows about water damage, sump pumps and french drains.
As with most things today, will probally cost more to transport it to the recycle metal yard than the value of the weight will bring.
Wonder how many folks are wishing their population guess is wrong, as they may be stuck with the bill to get rid of the thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I just picked up the new Urban Tulsa at lunch. (I had to go to Napoli's to pay for all the damage we did last Friday. They've replaced all the window panels we broke).
Page 15, the new aquarium ad is very prophetic:
"See what's underground!"
And...see what's underwater"
Photo-shopped pic of a Belvedere with a shark driving it.
UTW (//%22http://urbantulsa.com/currentissue.pdf%22)
Who knew they were just advertising the vault and not the aquarium.
This is so sad. Looks like the vault must of had a crack in the bottom because if the water filled it to the top it would of had to drain away somehow, most likely thru a cracks in the vault. They would of done better to check the car/vault every year after it was planted in the ground to be sure it was dry, it spoils the idea of a time capsule but at least you'd have a prize and something to dig out. The plastic bag could not of held back that water soaking in there, I guess it was sealed in a vacuum bag, but there's no way it could of stayed tight like that.[xx(]
I was hoping so bad for a new 1957 mint car. The water would of ruined everything even the microfilm and the contents they put inside the car. When it was opened they said it had 3' of water inside the vault. That's bad. The sand and rust and dirt on top of the wrap seem to point to the vault lid was leaking thru the years, that looks like sand on the top of the plastic. The seats, the dashboard, all would be ruined. It's very sad.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Only the car and vault contents will be removed; the concrete vault will stay in the ground. What I have read and heard has said the vault will remain in the ground and be backfilled with dirt and relandscaped like nothing was ever there.
Some encouraging trivia: The concrete vault for the car was built by Max True's "True Gunn-All Corp." in Tulsa. In early 1956, the Max True company constructed my neighborhood swimming pool at 4941 E 26 St, Tulsa's first private neighborhood subdivision (Lortondale) pool. Except for pumps, filters, some exterior concrete decking replacement and annual painting of the pool walls & interior, our pool is exactly the same as in 1956, still open for swimming and now in its 52nd consecutive summer season. Speaks pretty well for the Max True company and their construction quality, so I would say chances are pretty good the car vault has held up and remained water-tight.
I understand that Mr. True is now 93 years young, and he will be in the viewing stands on Friday when the car is raised from the ground. If the car is still in half-way decent shape, we have Mr. True to largely thank for that.
Steve,
Maybe they should put a pump set and filter on the vault and turn it into a pool for downtowners. [;)]
Yea, a big hot tub for the county courthouse.
I was SO disappointed when I heard the news this morning, I heard the first of it here, and then viewed the photos posted here and at the links. Being a lifetime Tulsan and turning 50 this year, I have known about this car and anticipated this day for so long. What a let down.
But all is not completely lost. From the looks of the photos, you can still see the outline of the structure of the 1957 Plymouth. Looks to me that the engine compartment hood and front end are all intact; possibly the roof and trunk lid have disintegrated. You can still see the tail fins. I don't know how they are going to remove this from the ground without destroying what remains. Best of luck to them.
Hopefully the time capsule and most artifacts have survived, but doesn't seem likely. I really hope the microfilm with the contest entries can be salvaged. I am still dying to know if my parents entered the "win a car" contest and what their population prediction was.
Well, if you watch the Discovery Channel or TLC very much then you've seen them raise airplanes and other vehicles from salt and fresh water over the years.
I managed to get some tix for the unveiling Friday night through a vendor of ours. Wish I could be a fly on the wall when Boyd Coddington says: "You want me to make this heap run??!!??"
Hopefully it's still pristine under the wrapping, but that "priceless" price tag sounds like it's beginning to drop.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Well, if you watch the Discovery Channel or TLC very much then you've seen them raise airplanes and other vehicles from salt and fresh water over the years.
Yes, I know they have restored cars and planes that were not much more than air and rust. Just looking at today's photos, you can definately tell there is a car in there under that dirty tarp. If someone with deep pockets has the will, they can probably restore Tulsa's Belvedere.
I felt sick about it when I first heard the news; I can imagine how the workmen and officials at the site must have felt. I hear Sharon King-Davis actually cried. I would have too. I saw her interviewed on KOTV 6 noon news today, and she said they are still going to go on with the plans, raise the remains, and put it on display this Friday evening at the convention center.
Here's the KOTV (//%22http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=129390%22) story.
quote:
TULSA, Okla. (AP) _ Workers unearthing the 1957 Plymouth Belvedere buried under the city's courthouse lawn were dealt an early setback Wednesday, as several feet of water were found in the concrete vault supposedly strong enough to withstand a nuclear attack.
The two-door hardtop, buried in 1957 to celebrate Oklahoma's 50 years of statehood, is set to be lifted out of the 12-foot-by-20-foot time capsule Friday morning to commemorate the state's centennial year. As many as 50,000 people from all over the world are expected at the event, and more than 260 media credentials have been handed out to reporters from New York to New Zealand.
But news of the standing water was crushing to event organizers. As heavy rain fell at the site, the Belvedere's fate remained unknown.
The vault was briefly opened Wednesday so hazardous materials crews could inspect the 10 gallons of gasoline and motor oil cans that had been placed in the time capsule in case internal combustion engines became obsolete by 2007.
Excavators found water halfway up on the car's fenders and more evidence water could have been to the top of the vault at one point, said Art Couch, who is heading up the unearthing project.
``I don't know how bad it is, but it's not good,'' Couch said. ``We were hoping it would be dry in there.''
Some water was pumped out, and the city was to bring in a truck to remove the last foot or so.
``The concrete must not have been as good as we hoped it was,'' Couch said. ``It had some failures over the years; the concrete didn't hold.''
The Belvedere was wrapped in a protective plastic material before it was buried, but it was unknown how it held up against the elements.
``Plymouths were very prone to rust to begin with,'' said Jim Benjaminson, a car collector from North Dakota who has written several books on Plymouths. ``Depending on this bag, if that car has sat in water for 50 years, I don't hold much hope for it.''
Benjaminson, who plans to be at Friday's unearthing, said he read a recent article that the plastic used to cover the Belvedere was supposed to protect materials ``for 1,200 years'' from rust.
``I guess we're going to see if that claim is true,'' he said.
Organizers say this just creates that much more mystery around the car's unveiling. News On 6 anchor Terry Hood hosts our live special Friday evening at 7 o'clock. The unveiling can also be seen live, streaming on the internet at kotv.com.
Sharon King Davis said there are 3 layers of protection still on the car which could still be intact.
It'll disappointing if it turns out to be worthy of recycling only (maybe recyclemichael will be elated, but not me). I'm still looking forward to seeing it.
Hopefully, whoever wins the thing will give it away, perhaps as a fixture for the Cyrus Avery Plaza.
It may of also been a good idea if they would have put some kind of pump system inside the vault in 1957, so when the water got above the steel pallet the pump would kick on, thus water could never get above a certain level. The only hope now is the plastic held. If they had 3 layers of that plastic there's hope, it was sealed in a vacuum wrap, but if that plastic had any little tear it's all over. it looks to me like the water entered from above since sand and water are on top of the car's plastic wrap. At one time it must have been full to the brim and drained out thru cracks in the vault's floor.
I have been paying attention to this for only 6 months now and I do not want to be negative in any way. I am still excited about the car. The shape I see in all of those pictures is the perfect shape of the car. I saw a video with the water all the way to the top of the tail fins of the car, it showed the water being pumped out. The water was clear. If that car was a pile of rust, The water would not have looked like that and I do not think they would have pumped down the street like it showed. I am not saying the car will be perfect, but I think it is going to be o.k.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Sharon King Davis said there are 3 layers of protection still on the car which could still be intact.
I saw her say that too, and it is obvious from the photos that there are still body panels intact, and as it sits right now, it is still a recognizable 1957 Plymouth. But how in the world are they going to lift and remove this without doing any further damage to it? I can't wait to see what is under that tarp. Rusted out shell or not, I bet we can still see the Plymouth and Belvedere badging on the old gal!
Unfortunately Kevin, we had enough rain in the last few days to fill that vault with 3' - so that water would still be clear.
Perhaps for our next time:
So, car+grease/cosmo+spray foam sealant+ shrink plastic wrap + pressurize with neutral gas + sturdier lose plastic wrap + more gas + steel girders + reinforced concrete vault inside water proofed + sealed top that extends 2 feet over on all sides that is waterproofed + more gas in the vault + seal the outside + rubberize it + make sure the vault is at the TOP of a hill instead of at the bottom of one (downhill from the BOA tower to City Hall).
Or, perhaps cooler yet, seal the car on an used floor of some building and brick it in. Would solve the rust issues - now just keep the mice out (no food + sealed with brick, should be ok).
Bah, still holding out hope. But a set back to be sure. Wonder if it will hurt the turnout?
The Prowler is in a pressurized aluminum vault.
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0607/431137.html
I know it is a long shot, but I just want to grasp at anything to keep hopes up. I just feel bad for those of you, many their entire lives, who have been waiting a long time to see what is in there. This will not keep me from attending the unveiling. It will be a nice piece of history, regardless of the outcome.
The dent you see with the sediment on it appears to be the deck lid. Remember that the trunk lid is down between the fins. I only hope that the car is intact under the plastic. It is sealed in a plastic bag so perhaps things will not be pristine but still might be salvageable.
You talking about the dent on the trunk? Or somewhere else? I'm not pickin' up what you're layin' down.
(http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4691/car3resizeaa1.jpg)
Here's that pic posted on page 3 by TulsaSooner.
Looking at pics of 1957 Belvederes, it's hard to tell just how sunken in that trunk normally is.
The perspective on that photo is difficult to tell how much the trunk is "sunken" since one of the walls is at the bottom of the photo.
Some of the other angles, it doesn't look so bad. I guess we will all know for certain on Friday.
I wonder if there is a talking/singing frog in the trunk...
I agree. From the angle of the pic, and depending on the type, and depending on how much cover there is on this thing, it's hard to tell if the trunk was damaged or not. There could also be a bit of an optical illusion going on, since there appears to be standing water in between the fins.
Here's a site that has a few pics of different 1957 Belvederes
http://www.plymouthcentral.com/57Belvedere1.html
From this picture, it appears to me that the trunk lid is entirely gone, as well as the roof of the passenger compartment. Doesn't seem like good news for the steel time capsule that was supposedly put in the trunk. Other photos I have seen on flickr seem different. The front end bonnet over the engine seems to be intact.
I guess we shall all see for sure Friday evening. I just hope they can raise the beast without any further damage.
Something I find slighty amazing about this pic is that the windshield and rear window almost appear to be intact. Can't be sure of course, until Friday. But with so many pounds of water pressure on the car, I'd half expect the roof to give way enough to compromise the structure around the windows.
I talked to someone who was down in the vault today. I don't want to reveal too much, but I showed him these pics and he said that those flat areas -- the trunk, top and hood are not collapsed or sunken. That's all I'm sayin'.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Something I find slighty amazing about this pic is that the windshield and rear window almost appear to be intact. Can't be sure of course, until Friday. But with so many pounds of water pressure on the car, I'd half expect the roof to give way enough to compromise the structure around the windows.
Yes, it appears that the windows are still largely intact. I have heard that curved glass is at least if not more structurally sound than steel, not to mention less corrosive. Looks like the front and rear window framing held up, as well as the right (passenger) side roof frame.
We all know by now that it is in sad shape, but I still can't wait to finally see what has survived.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
I talked to someone who was down in the vault today. I don't want to reveal too much, but I showed him these pics and he said that those flat areas -- the trunk, top and hood are not collapsed or sunken. That's all I'm sayin'.
GREAT TulsaMINI! Given Tulsa's history with flooding and water problems, I think we should be glad as much of the car has survived as we have seen so far. I am still anxiously awaiting the big reveal this Friday.
At this point in time, I think I'm grateful I don't have a chance to win the car!
Here's a bunch more pics:
http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/index.html
This is all really fun! Since it was sealed in plastic if the vault filled with water it is likely the vehicle floated to the top which could have dented the roof and fins. I was not too impressed with the cloth covered rubber sealing in late 50's cars. They leaked during rainstorms. Its a rust bucket now without a doubt. Still fun though.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
Here's a bunch more pics:
http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/index.html
Thanks for the link to the pics. Sorry to say, but judging from those pictures this thing is probably nothing but rust. It looks as though the cloth or whatever it is that's covering the trunk has even been eaten through with rust. Wouldn't matter anyway - where do you think all of that rust came from? There's nothing else in the vault made of corrosive material other than the car, right? I mean, look at this..
(http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/slides/DSC08692.JPG)
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
At this point in time, I think I'm grateful I don't have a chance to win the car!
Well Wilbur, I think that is a very selfish and disrespecful attitude. I don't care if the car is a rust heap; if I were the official winner (I would be the legal heir of my parents and their winning entry) I would be honored to win this automobile and take my place in Tulsa history. It is not all about money or winning a pristine vintage 1950s car; it is all about being a part of Tulsa history.
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
Here's a bunch more pics:
http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/index.html
Thanks for the link to the pics. Sorry to say, but judging from those pictures this thing is probably nothing but rust. It looks as though the cloth or whatever it is that's covering the trunk has even been eaten through with rust. Wouldn't matter anyway - where do you think all of that rust came from? There's nothing else in the vault made of corrosive material other than the car, right? I mean, look at this..
(http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/slides/DSC08692.JPG)
Thanks Lister for that picture, that is the best picture I have seen today that shows the entire basic structure of the Plymouth intact, lifts my spirits and gives me hope about the survival of the Plymouth. The roof and the trunk lid in that picture do not appear to be caved in; you can see the sloping roofline of the 1957 hardtop Plymouth, the distinctive front end and the tail fins. I am sure the interior of car is long gone, but I think we have reason to hope that the car is not a total lost cause. Damaged, for sure. But only the final reveal on Friday will tell us the truth!
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
Here's a bunch more pics:
http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/index.html
Thanks for the link to the pics. Sorry to say, but judging from those pictures this thing is probably nothing but rust. It looks as though the cloth or whatever it is that's covering the trunk has even been eaten through with rust. Wouldn't matter anyway - where do you think all of that rust came from? There's nothing else in the vault made of corrosive material other than the car, right? I mean, look at this..
(http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/slides/DSC08692.JPG)
That is one of two layers of material meant to be completely airtight. The vault is buried in red dirt and the car is sitting on i-beams and jack stands. What you see on top of the trunk is dirt.
Well, I guess we can hope that a lot of that coloration is silt. It appears to be close to the same color as the dirt around there. That deck lid looks ominous though. Hope that is dirt or rust from the steel pallet/jacks.
I just wonder, we've been through one of the rainiest periods I can remember, and still the vault wasn't as full as it apparently has been before. I guess that could mean that the leaks in the bottom that drain are more recent that those that let the water in. That's bad, because it means it could have spent a LOT of time submerged before the draining leaks developed. I don't think it floated, though, because it appears to be still centered in the vault. I would expect if it floated it would have gotten crossways.
(http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/slides/DSC08643.JPG)
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
At this point in time, I think I'm grateful I don't have a chance to win the car!
Well Wilbur, I think that is a very selfish and disrespecful attitude. I don't care if the car is a rust heap; if I were the official winner (I would be the legal heir of my parents and their winning entry) I would be honored to win this automobile and take my place in Tulsa history. It is not all about money or winning a pristine vintage 1950s car; it is all about being a part of Tulsa history.
I'm not trying to put a damper on the event, and I think the whole event should still go well. I don't think the condition of the car should have any affect on the event as a whole. My point was, if I had won the car, trying to get rid of the thing (other then to Borg Steel) would be next to impossible. Once that car filled with water ONCE, all of the electrical systems are toast, not to mention the rest of the interior.
quote:
Originally posted by jiminy
I don't think it floated, though, because it appears to be still centered in the vault. I would expect if it floated it would have gotten crossways.
Yeah, I think you're right. It actually would be better news had it floated. Still it could have remained airtight.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Sharon King Davis said there are 3 layers of protection still on the car which could still be intact.
If Queen Sharon says it, then all is well.
Regardless, this is still a very cool event. If I were the winner of the car, I would donate it to the Tulsa Historical Society. With their new, large facility, surely they could put it on display. This is an important piece of Tulsa history. I'm sure some generous car restorer would donate his/her time to make it presentable.
If the plastic tarp held it may be OK, they said it was vacuum sealed, The one guy said in 1957 that the sheet could protect that car for 1,200 years.. also since the sheet looks flat, it could mean theres no water under it, otherwise the sheet would be lumpy with pools of water under it. If water got under the plastic it would be very bad the plastic would hold the water against the car and rust it away. It looks like to me the sheet is all brown on the outside from water and sand that was leaking in from above, that could of gave the car the look of being under water. if that vault was filled to the rim I don't see how the water could of all drained out thru the cement cracks so fast. it also does not mean the water was in the vault for 50 years, the water could of started leaking in 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. Perhaps the first 10 or 20 years the vault was dry. To see those pictures is like getting hit in the gut with a ball bat. I'm hoping that plastic sheet stayed air tight.
Everyone seems to be saying that the red color means rust, the color could be that of the dirt that leaked in over the years.That red stuff on the trunk lid is all dirt, the pools of water there could be from rains leaking in water overhead, and collecting on the trunk lid and the bottom of the vault. A better way to have done something like this would be to have put the vault inside a bigger vault and then wrap the car in many layers of air tight plastic, and maybe even wrap the outter vault in a plastic sheet.. To me the failure seems to be from the vault lid. I understand Tulsa had a big flood in 1959 but the vault area was not underwater from what I know. The water in the vault seems clear no oil traces, or things like that, even a small amount of oil would leave those color oil streaks in the water. It may not be that bad..
A couple people mentioned water pressure. The depth of the vault doesn't appear to be more than 8 feet. At the bottom of the vault, it would be around 18psi. At the top of the car, assuming it is about 4 feet from the top of the vault, if the vault were ever completely flooded, it would have been about 15 psi at the roof line. IMO, not enough pressure to deform the metal.
They used thicker steel panels back then as well.
The big crane to do a test lift just arrived. Big crowd down there.
Hmm....Best case scenario: The plastic held. But what about condensation?
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2865564
Its been farked several times, here is the latest thread on the topic.
I'm holding out that the car may not be as bad as we think it is.
If the vault were full of water at some point, would that not have moved the car somewhat? It appears to be sitting in the vault pretty straight.
There were cans of oil and a gas can packed in the vault outside of the car bag. You can see the gas can covered in rust at the end of the car. This alone could account for the rusty water.
The fact that no gasoline was found in the water in the vault is a good sign. If the car were a rust bucket, the gas tank would have rusted as well.
When they drained the water out of the vault, I heard nothing about water draining from inside the car onto the vault floor, which it would have if the car were full of water. This makes me think the car is intact.
From what I can see of the car, the top of it looks fine. You can clearly see the outline of the roof, front fenders, fins, etc., and one man who saw them pull a vacuum on the car bag back in 1957 commented it looked exactly the same to him as it did in 1957 before they closed the vault.
Also, if we don't hear any bad news today about the car, I think it's going to be OK. I heard that they might replace the rusty skids the car is sitting on (another source of rust in the water), and they will have to lift the car to do that. This means the frame will have to support the weight of the car. If it's rusty, the car will twist and flex at a minimum when it's lifted. So, if all goes well replacing the skids, that tells me the frame and body overall are stable.
No one will know for certain until tomorrow, but I'm going to hope the car is in decent shape. At any rate, it's a historical moment in time and it's nice to be able to be a part of it.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Unfortunately Kevin, we had enough rain in the last few days to fill that vault with 3' - so that water would still be clear.
Perhaps for our next time:
So, car+grease/cosmo+spray foam sealant+ shrink plastic wrap + pressurize with neutral gas + sturdier lose plastic wrap + more gas + steel girders + reinforced concrete vault inside water proofed + sealed top that extends 2 feet over on all sides that is waterproofed + more gas in the vault + seal the outside + rubberize it + make sure the vault is at the TOP of a hill instead of at the bottom of one (downhill from the BOA tower to City Hall).
Or, perhaps cooler yet, seal the car on an used floor of some building and brick it in. Would solve the rust issues - now just keep the mice out (no food + sealed with brick, should be ok).
Bah, still holding out hope. But a set back to be sure. Wonder if it will hurt the turnout?
You bring up good ideas but they would be very expensive to do. I think a flaw with this vault was the 3-piece lid because those joints are places for water to enter plus it does not look like it sealed well around the edges of the vault where the lid and vault wall meet. They should of put a plastic wrap on the outside of the vault too. Also, I read that that they did test and check the soil around the outside of the vault for water and the vault bottom was dry a few years ago. if the vault was full to the brim of water it would have of had to leak out into the surrounding soil and the outside of the vault would of been muddy but it was found to be dry. That 2' of water in the vault may have been all the water that leaked in from the past 50 years (or when ever it started to leak). The idea of a above ground vault is also intresting, that would be more secure against water and mother nature, cheaper to do too.
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
If the vault were full of water at some point, would that not have moved the car somewhat? It appears to be sitting in the vault pretty straight.
Not necessarily. It's probably strapped or bolted on to the platform to prevent sliding around while inserted. It would be a bit weighted down. Not sure what the floating potential of a Belvedere normally is, it's probably a relatively heavy car. But, we'll find out tomorrow.
I'm still optimistic about it all too. I don't guess condition matters too much to me.
A pressurized vault would be the way to go.
Could have a meter relaying the pressure inside.
If the vault is "pushing out", nothing's going to be leaking in.
I agree, the 3-piece lid was a big boo.. if anything, a single piece air-tight dome (think "diving bell") that sits over the vault / car... (the air-pressure thing).
And/Or, have some sort of sump pump activated if water gets in. Probably not as reliable as simply keeping the fault under pressure.
All things considered, this was a pretty big undertaking for 1957. It sounds to me like a lot of precautions were taken to protect the car, and a lot of possibilities were considered in the preparation for storing the car.
1957 technology is what it was.
This is a gift from Tulsans in 1957 to Tulsans in 2007, and I think it's a wonderful one, regardless of what the car looks like.
And the 1957 Plymouth is the perfect car for it. Sure, it would be cooler if it were a Corvette, Thunderbird, or Cadillac Eldorado Brougham, but the 1957 Plymouth was a revelation in automotive styling at the time, and it literally sent the other automakers back to the drawing boards to redo their cars.
Well call this my lucky day. I just got back from "ground zero"- inside the fence. I took photos but I have been asked not to do anything with them prior to tomorrow's events. I'll post them next Monday.
I've been asked not to comment on the condition of the car (not saying its bad or good just asked not to say anything), but what I can say about the vault: it is constructed not unlike a swimming pool as the corners are rounded in the vault and the walls appear to be rounded to a transition with the floor. On the west wall of the vault, the names "Valerie & Carol" are scrawled in the concrete wall. I was told that that was the name of the Tulsarama queen and the runner-up. I saw the time capsule behind the trunk, at least the top and ends are still intact on it, I don't have a clue about the bottom of it.
I spoke to several engineers and construction-types and no one seems to know any more than I do where the leaks came from. Most speculation seems to be the lid or lid to vault joint. We didn't obeserve any visible cracks on the walls.
Even at 10 feet, it's really hard to tell if it is mud or rust on the "bag". Looks more like rust on the trunk side of the bag and mud on the hood side. The outline of the car looks right, nothing looks sunken in.
They are using the two original beams which run the length of the car and exit out past the bumpers, and they put two additional cross beams under the car for the lift today. It should lift out just fine.
I was told initially I had a 5 to 15% chance of getting next to the hole, so I feel very, very fortunate. I had hoped to be down there during the lift-out tomorrow but was told the chance was even more remote. The industry I work in is somewhat construction-related so that didn't hurt getting this chance.
It was cool, cool, cool to see this bit of history up close. Someone got me tix for tomorrow night's unveiling, (probably so I'd quit *****ing about the "eliteists") [}:)]
another question, if the water did fill the vault at some point, how did the water get out?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Well call this my lucky day. I just got back from "ground zero"- inside the fence. I took photos but I have been asked not to do anything with them prior to tomorrow's events. I'll post them next Monday.
I've been asked not to comment on the condition of the car (not saying its bad or good just asked not to say anything), but what I can say about the vault: it is constructed not unlike a swimming pool as the corners are rounded in the vault and the walls appear to be rounded to a transition with the floor. On the west wall of the vault, the names "Valerie & Carol" are scrawled in the concrete wall. I was told that that was the name of the Tulsarama queen and the runner-up. I saw the time capsule behind the trunk, at least the top and ends are still intact on it, I don't have a clue about the bottom of it.
I spoke to several engineers and construction-types and no one seems to know any more than I do where the leaks came from. Most speculation seems to be the lid or lid to vault joint. We didn't obeserve any visible cracks on the walls.
Even at 10 feet, it's really hard to tell if it is mud or rust on the "bag". Looks more like rust on the trunk side of the bag and mud on the hood side. The outline of the car looks right, nothing looks sunken in.
They are using the two original beams which run the length of the car and exit out past the bumpers, and they put two additional cross beams under the car for the lift today. It should lift out just fine.
I was told initially I had a 5 to 15% chance of getting next to the hole, so I feel very, very fortunate. I had hoped to be down there during the lift-out tomorrow but was told the chance was even more remote. The industry I work in is somewhat construction-related so that didn't hurt getting this chance.
It was cool, cool, cool to see this bit of history up close. Someone got me tix for tomorrow night's unveiling, (probably so I'd quit *****ing about the "eliteists") [}:)]
Thanks for that update, Conan. Sounds to me like it might not be too bad. It would seem that they already know structurally what condition the car is in. If the frame were compromised with rust, I would imagine they'd have to use a bit more reinforcements to get it out of the hole.
I've restored cars and it's surprising how bad they can get and still be brought back as good as new, sometimes better than new since we often know where the weak points are and can fix them during the restoration.
Good question Sgrizz. There's still a puddle's depth of muddy water in the bottom. All anyone was speculating at this point is "I don't know".
I doubt anyone will spend the money on an engineering study, nor bother to clean the vault to look that closely.
My personal guess is it could have leached in and out the walls or any number of smaller cracks. Sort of like the walls being an osmotic membrane. Just like my basement- I've been getting seepage in my basement with the heavy rains. I don't see any cracks, but yet the floor gets wet. Perhaps when the soil around the vault would dry out, it would leach back out. I open my basement window and run fans for a couple of days to dry. I don't know if that's the best way to illustrate what I'm talking about but that's the best I can do right now.
My boss and I talked about it and it would have been a pretty simple affair to construct a gravity drain with a back-check to the CH basement or a storm sewer. Who knows, maybe they do have a drain under the car and it backed up at some point with some other sewer work (pure speculation nothing more nothing less). Details don't appear to have been overly well-documented from 1957.
Kind of random but I dont have a chance to tell this story much. At the John Deere plant I worked at there is a 'time capsule.' That is to say a 1974 John Deere front end loader. They used it to construct the building and it got stuck inside at some point. As in, they built around it. It has its own little room, which is now used for storage.
Thought that was funny.
Thanks for the good news Conan71- I was thinking the same thing, the base of the vault looks good and soild, The lid does not look good and that may be why they used all that gunite to try & seal it in 1957, the lids look like they reach only to the mid-point of the vault wall and are thin looking. From the sand & water stains on the cars plastic it looks to me like that's where all the water entered. The 2'of water in the vault my be the total amount leaked in since whenever the leak started, I can't see how it could of been full of water to the brim and had all that water leak out. The lid may not of leaked till many years after 1957, as cracks could of developed in the gunnite and the dripping started. They said the plastic wrap is air tight and in 3 layers and heat sealed also some guy in 1957 said the wrap could last 1,200 years. But any little tear or cut in the plastic would doom it. I feel very up beat about the car now. I don't hear nothing about it here in Ohio, I have to go to the internet. They would of done better to have used a solid 1-piece lid and maybe even lay a sheet of plastic around the top in 1957. Anyhoo, Thanks for the gift you folks of 1957 gave us here in 2007![:)]
Wow - I guess I'm an optimist - but these recent pics (thanks!) actually show the car in much better shape than the ones I saw yesterday (guess it was the angle).
It won't be a perfect car - but I think there is a slight possibility that we may see this thing riding around at the Fair in a few months. I'm still holding on to that slight possibility.
Also - people name their cars - does this baby have a name? That would be a cool contest. Name the Belvedere. "Lazarus"? "Phoenix"? "Creature from the Tulsa Lagoon"? (VERY 50's)
THis guy might be able to help....
(http://www.ecrannoir.fr/dossiers/ete2001/opti/bubble01.jpg)
I think the car is going to be in better condition than what most people expect it to be. Parts of the car have been wrapped to protect individual components, such as the engine and interior. On top of all of that, the car is wrapped in three seperate layers. One of those layers are a rust resistent/inhibitor layer. Another thing you may want to take into account for is that the car itself was buried along with the METAL platform already below it, which is what I believe caused most of the rusty water. This platform was not protected. Another thing to consider would be what most people believe is the sunken trunk. If you consider the body of a Belvedere, you would notice that the rear portion of the car has fins. The sediment that has collected between the fins don't necessarily give depth to how "sunken" the trunk really is, and thats just to say if it has sunken in the first place. I, for one, am going to remain optimistic. Regardless if the car is in surprisingly excellent condition or if it becomes the largest rust bucket, it's the principle of the fact that this iconic car has meaning.
***EDIT: I just came across this picture and by the looks of it, the layers have been compromised and we may be looking at a very rusted or very dirty rear tail light...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/RiceRacerDX/DSC08746.jpg)
But isn't the cosmoline they coated it with brown, also? How can you tell it from rust?
I didn't know about the cosmoline being brown. I thought it was white. Oh well, i'm not going to jump to conclusions until I see everything with all the covers taken off and the car cleaned and prepped for the event. I'm gonna try to stay as optimistic as possible til then.
quote:
Originally posted by TurismoDreamin
I think the car is going to be in better condition than what most people expect it to be. Parts of the car have been wrapped to protect individual components, such as the engine and interior. On top of all of that, the car is wrapped in three seperate layers. One of those layers are a rust resistent/inhibitor layer. Another thing you may want to take into account for is that the car itself was buried along with the METAL platform already below it, which is what I believe caused most of the rusty water. This platform was not protected. Another thing to consider would be what most people believe is the sunken trunk. If you consider the body of a Belvedere, you would notice that the rear portion of the car has fins. The sediment that has collected between the fins don't necessarily give depth to how "sunken" the trunk really is, and thats just to say if it has sunken in the first place. I, for one, am going to remain optimistic. Regardless if the car is in surprisingly excellent condition or if it becomes the largest rust bucket, it's the principle of the fact that this iconic car has meaning.
***EDIT: I just came across this picture and by the looks of it, the layers have been compromised and we may be looking at a very rusted or very dirty rear tail light...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/RiceRacerDX/DSC08746.jpg)
Not good. Not good at all. I read a little story about this test lift and they said that water ran out. What broke the bag? Very disappointing, as I was still hoping for the best. I think the best we can hope for now is that it is in some kind of restorable condition. Unless that is cosmoline on the fin, but I doubt it.
I would say the weight of the soil on the trunk deck weighing the covering down on the points of the fins caused the tear in the plastic.....
The car just looks very dirty to me. What you can see where the cover is torn is the rear taillamp area. The lens itself is plastic, so it won't rust. The color is uniform, and rust isn't uniform. You would see rust mostly in the form of a scaly deposit and this is still smooth.
What is most encouraging to me is under the rear bumper you can see the rear valance and the bottom of the rear quarter panel. Two areas VERY prone to rust on these cars, and they are still there, which means the car is intact.
The floorboards may be rotted, but those can be replaced. Anyone who has restored an old Mustang knows this is done frequently.
I think the car is going to be in better shape than we think.
I wasn't going to say anything about the tears but since that photo's been posted, the Plymouth cat's out of the bag. It more or less resembles a tarp now.
All we could see of tears from the top were at the tips of the fins. We talked about it after getting back to the office and figured the fin tears were caused by sediment on the deck lid as Breadburner said.
Yes, cosmoline is brown.
Pure speculation: only basis being previous experience with cosmolined parts- with the bag compromised, cosmoline could do more harm than good if water gets under it.
I think they will be able to make it presentable for tomorrow night, but I don't think it will be running which I believe was the intent for having Boyd Coddington here. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think they will have enough time.
D'oh!
I saw in the original sets of pictures that the "vacuum seal" was broken, but thought that might be due to messing with it. When I rig my boat for highway travel I know I have to pad the corners, come on 1950's - you created ICBM's and space travel, you're smarter than that!
The good news is, even with the tear directly at the point, there is definitely a panel there. I would think a car sitting in water for 50 years would have holes rusted in the body. Then again, if the water was stagnant the reaction would have slowed down as the iron level of the water rose (not a chemist, but seems plausible).
I hope not, but I'm starting to think we may have been just as well parking it in the Arkansas river.
Aw it's all over, however that does not mean it sat in water for 50 years, we don't know when the leak started and any leak would of been slow. The first few years it must of been dry then the gunnite started to crack and leak no doubt. The objects in the car would also be ruined like the microfilm of the names. Here's what scared me, I looked at the 1957 picture of the car wraped and sitting in the vault before the sealing and the plastic wrap was smooth and straight back then, the 2007 picture shows the plastic wrap all wrinked almost as if water was sloshing around inside there, somehow that wrap got wrinkled.
Is the micofilm and other stuff not in the time capsule? Because the time capsule is not in the car.
quote:
Originally posted by jiminy
Is the micofilm and other stuff not in the time capsule? Because the time capsule is not in the car.
I think it's supposed to be in some kind of sealed (heh) steel container in the trunk isn't it?
Sealed container is behind the trunk on the floor of the vault. I hope that's where it was originally. [:O]
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
The car just looks very dirty to me. What you can see where the cover is torn is the rear taillamp area. The lens itself is plastic, so it won't rust. The color is uniform, and rust isn't uniform. You would see rust mostly in the form of a scaly deposit and this is still smooth.
What is most encouraging to me is under the rear bumper you can see the rear valance and the bottom of the rear quarter panel. Two areas VERY prone to rust on these cars, and they are still there, which means the car is intact.
The floorboards may be rotted, but those can be replaced. Anyone who has restored an old Mustang knows this is done frequently.
I think the car is going to be in better shape than we think.
I agree T Town. I was really sad on Wednesday, but the more pics I see and all, I think it is just a dirty car and is in much better shape than many people think! My anxiety is now back up to the fever pitch it was on Tuesday, before the lid was opened!
That tear in the bag could very well have happened just yesterday when the car was lifted. The weight of the material hanging down, its weakness after 50 years, and the sharp point of the tail fin could have opened it up when the car was lifted.
I think we all are going to be very pleasantly surprised in about 8 hours! I think it will look even better after they have proper time to really clean her up good and dry her out.
In the pictures that show the covering on the car smooth, that is not the outside plastic bag, that is the cosmoline layer put on before the plastic bag. That is likely covered by years of soot and dirt right now.
The plastic bag was wrinkled and somewhat loose when the car was placed in the vault. An older man was interviewed on television who was at the 1957 event, and he said the plastic bag over the car looked the same back then as it does today, wrinkles and all. Of course, it wasn't torn back then, and I would have thought they would have taken precautions with sharp edges on the car to pad them somewhat, but they probably didn't consider that gravity would take its toll and tear the bag eventually.
The car may be covered with surface rust, which can be removed and a new coat of paint applied. This is not a difficult process as long as there aren't any holes to patch. So far, I've seen nothing that would indicate huge chunks of rusty metal are missing.
We'll know in a matter of hours what the whole story is. I'm going to try to keep a positive attitude that all is OK for the most part, and the car while not 100% pristine as everyone had hoped, will be an easy restoration back to new condition.
Another concern is the upholstery material. Apparently, it began to deteriorate quite rapidly in the early sixties. This was due mostly to sunlight, so it will be interesting to see what's left of the interior as well.
If you look at the photo on the previous page of the lift yesterday, the bag is draping off the back of the car. The top of the fins were dirty when we looked at it yesterday, this wasn't something which happened since Weds. It is no longer sealed along the bottom and you can see sediment inside the bag.
The one good thing is, fresh oxygen would have been a minimum inside the vault. Oxygen will accelerate corrosion with water.
They were talking to Coddington on the news this morning and he said the main concern is whether or not the engine has locked up from being in standing water. All we can hope is that any crankcase vents and the air cleaner were all sealed and they sprayed preservative into the cylinders and crankcase.
We just need to hold our breath till 6:30 tonight.
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
Another concern is the upholstery material. Apparently, it began to deteriorate quite rapidly in the early sixties. This was due mostly to sunlight, so it will be interesting to see what's left of the interior as well.
Yes. I have very high hopes for the sheet metal and structure. The condition of the interior and the artifacts that were placed inside is the biggest mystery of all right now for me.
I assume the windows of the car were closed when it was entombed. They should really sift through any dirt and debris left in the vault for momentos that may be lurking there. And I hope they clean up the vault walls and floor and take close photos so we can see the names and writings that were etched in the gunnite and written on the walls.
Hello from Germany,
being an enthusiast of vintage cars I am interestingly following the whole story. Hopefully it turns out to be not as bad as it seemed to when the water was discovered.
I want to make a little story out of it for a vintage car magazine over here. Very helpful would be a few pictures in a size that can be used for printing in a magazine (lets say jpg-pictures with at least 250kb, >500kB would be better). I am asking for pictures from the undigging, the first lift, and of course from what is going to happen tonight. Unfortunately the pictures I am able to take from the web are too small to print.
Maybe somebody also scanned in a few pictures from the burial in 1957 and is able to send them , too?
Any help is appreciated, please send pictures to my e-mail-address jof@gmx.li (please note the letters after the dot, it is "L" like left and "I" like indian). Thanks a lot!
What is the weather like? Over here in Germany at 5.00 PM (that is the actual time here now) it is raining!
Best regards
Jörg
According to the Shelbyville article, the bottom of the bag is actually a material called Metalam. It was laid down on the skid, and the car was set on it. The bag (a Kennedy Car Liner) was draped over, heat-sealed to the metalam, and air was sucked out through an opening. I wonder why they did it that way, instead of using the Metalam for the whole thing. I have to think there were sturdier materials back then to make the bag of. Oh, well...
Jorg, unfortunately, the photos I took yesterday are about pretty low res due to the cheap camera we use at work for posting equipment photos on the internet but you are welcome to try to work with them. I can send you some on Monday. I'll PM you with my email address.
Jiminy, there is a material in the outer bag we could see which had the appearance of aluminum foil to us.
From what I have read, 1957 was one of the wettest years on record for Tulsa and Oklahoma. It rained nearly the entire week of the 1957 Tulsarama pageant and car burial. Seems like history is repeating itself 50 years later!
I don't think the rust will be that bad, much of the normal car rust is caused from road salt, and I'm from Michigan so I know how road salt eats up the metal. This vault would of had pure water and we don't know when the water entered. The bottom of the car may have alot of rust such as the brake drums, wheel bearings and u-joints, front end and things like that. The transmission may also have water in it. The '57 Plymouth had a real nice dash board and an "oblog" horn ring. They did say the seats did not hold up well because Chrysler was in a rush to produce them to meet demand. My neighbor had a 1959 Plymouth Fury when I was a kid and his car got very severe rust, but that's from the Michigan roads in winter & the salt, My dad owned a 1958 Ford Fairlane 500 that car also rusted out badly. I read in the Tulsa newspaper a few weeks ago that many cars of the late 1950's had rust problems and they think it's due to the cheap imported steel that was used at the time to meet production demands, but sadly the Plymouth was one of the most rust prone vehicles they say.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
From what I have read, 1957 was one of the wettest years on record for Tulsa and Oklahoma. It rained nearly the entire week of the 1957 Tulsarama pageant and car burial. Seems like history is repeating itself 50 years later!
That's right 1957 was a very rainy year also I understand Tulsa had a big flood in 1959, I have no idea where or what flooded back then. Tulsa also had a big flood in 1984 but that was not near the vault, it was around Mingo Road.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
My dad owned a 1958 Ford Fairlane 500 that car also rusted out badly.
That brought back a memory! Our neighbors had a 1958 Ford Fairlane convertible (soft top, not the retractable hardtop), red and white color scheme. I remember riding in that car as a kid and the floor pans were rusted out so badly that we could watch the ground whiz by! We had to be careful where we stepped getting in and out of that car, so we didn't fall through, and this was around 1965, when the car was only 7 years old!
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
My dad owned a 1958 Ford Fairlane 500 that car also rusted out badly.
That brought back a memory! Our neighbors had a 1958 Ford Fairlane convertible (soft top, not the retractable hardtop), red and white color scheme. I remember riding in that car as a kid and the floor pans were rusted out so badly that we could watch the ground whiz by! We had to be careful where we stepped getting in and out of that car, so we didn't fall through, and this was around 1965, when the car was only 7 years old!
WoW...Was that in Tulsa? That kind of major rust most offten happens in northern states.. My dad's 1958 Ford Fairlane 500 was two tone a brown top and white body with brown cloth seats inside. It was a two door. it looked vey nice when new. He had the straight 6 cylinder and stick shift trans. But in the 1960's it turned into swiss cheese, my dad tryed to spray primer on it and bondo up the holes. The top of the headlights rusted out bad. Ford also had a famous "Skyliner" car one year with a retractable roof, but rumor has it used to break down offten, and the top also got stuck alot. Today those cars are worth alot of money. You also had no trunk space on that "Skyliner" car. I forgot the year I think it was '59 but could of been '57. Ford did not keep that model.
Just watched on TV Ch 2, them raise the old gal out of the vault and put her on the trailer.
I guess it doesn't take much to thrill me, but that was just about the coolest, nifty, tough, neat-o groovy thing I have seen in a long, long time! Makes me proud to be a Tulsan today!
Now if I can just survive the next 6 hours until the big reveal...
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
My dad owned a 1958 Ford Fairlane 500 that car also rusted out badly.
That brought back a memory! Our neighbors had a 1958 Ford Fairlane convertible (soft top, not the retractable hardtop), red and white color scheme. I remember riding in that car as a kid and the floor pans were rusted out so badly that we could watch the ground whiz by! We had to be careful where we stepped getting in and out of that car, so we didn't fall through, and this was around 1965, when the car was only 7 years old!
WoW...Was that in Tulsa? That kind of major rust most offten happens in northern states.. My dad's 1958 Ford Fairlane 500 was two tone a brown top and white body with brown cloth seats inside. It was a two door. it looked vey nice when new. He had the straight 6 cylinder and stick shift trans. But in the 1960's it turned into swiss cheese, my dad tryed to spray primer on it and bondo up the holes. The top of the headlights rusted out bad. Ford also had a famous "Skyliner" car one year with a retractable roof, but rumor has it used to break down offten, and the top also got stuck alot. Today those cars are worth alot of money. You also had no trunk space on that "Skyliner" car. I forgot the year I think it was '59 but could of been '57. Ford did not keep that model.
Yea, that bad rust out was on a Tulsa car. We do use salt on the streets sometimes for ice, but I think the metal quality of those late 1950s cars was so poor that location did not make much of a difference.
Ford produced the retractable hardtop Skyliner for the 58, 59 and 60 model years I believe. Originally intended for the Lincoln division, it was put on the cheaper, bigger selling Ford to help recoup development and tooling costs. The power mechanism was remarkably reliable, but a bit*h to work manually if it broke down. The 58-59 cars were badged Fairlane and Skyliner; the 1960 models were badged Galaxie and Skyliner, I believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Just watched on TV Ch 2, them raise the old gal out of the vault and put her on the trailer.
I guess it doesn't take much to thrill me, but that was just about the coolest, nifty, tough, neat-o groovy thing I have seen in a long, long time! Makes me proud to be a Tulsan today!
Now if I can just survive the next 6 hours until the big reveal...
When they lifted her up, you could very clearly see the outline of the "sportone" contrasting side trim all down the side of the car, because the baggie was hugging the sides due to water or weight. What a thrill.
Assuming the microfilm is intact, can anyone verify when they are going to announce the official winning contest entry? I think they said today on Ch. 2, but I did not catch that part.
She is in bad shape....I ended up going down....I had a good view of the exposed Fin.....Lots of Cancer on that portion.....
My guess for the inside of the car. The cigarettes, change and case of beer are gone. A skeleton of a bum with a sign, "will work for food" behind the steering wheel.[;)]
I think what you do now is recover the vault she was sitting in and cut the front wall out and disply the car in it's state of the last 50 years (uncovered of course).......Route 66 museum seems like the approprite place to me....
That KOTV e-clip has a good up close glimpse of that exposed fin.
It was brown, but something I noticed was a whitish area where it had been scratched on the bumper. As if that brown stuff might be a coating, and the chrome was being exposed underneath.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Just watched on TV Ch 2, them raise the old gal out of the vault and put her on the trailer.
I guess it doesn't take much to thrill me, but that was just about the coolest, nifty, tough, neat-o groovy thing I have seen in a long, long time! Makes me proud to be a Tulsan today!
Now if I can just survive the next 6 hours until the big reveal...
When they lifted her up, you could very clearly see the outline of the "sportone" contrasting side trim all down the side of the car, because the baggie was hugging the sides due to water or weight. What a thrill.
Assuming the microfilm is intact, can anyone verify when they are going to announce the official winning contest entry? I think they said today on Ch. 2, but I did not catch that part.
Microfilm goes to De Loitte & Touche after they open the capsule. Winner will be announced next Friday at a news conference. They have the whole sched at the buriedcar.com site.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Just watched on TV Ch 2, them raise the old gal out of the vault and put her on the trailer.
I guess it doesn't take much to thrill me, but that was just about the coolest, nifty, tough, neat-o groovy thing I have seen in a long, long time! Makes me proud to be a Tulsan today!
Now if I can just survive the next 6 hours until the big reveal...
When they lifted her up, you could very clearly see the outline of the "sportone" contrasting side trim all down the side of the car, because the baggie was hugging the sides due to water or weight. What a thrill.
Assuming the microfilm is intact, can anyone verify when they are going to announce the official winning contest entry? I think they said today on Ch. 2, but I did not catch that part.
Microfilm goes to De Loitte & Touche after they open the capsule. Winner will be announced next Friday at a news conference. They have the whole sched at the buriedcar.com site.
IN addition to the car, they win the savings account which is worth about $1200 now. So all would not be lost :)
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
That KOTV e-clip has a good up close glimpse of that exposed fin.
It was brown, but something I noticed was a whitish area where it had been scratched on the bumper. As if that brown stuff might be a coating, and the chrome was being exposed underneath.
Here it is:
http://www.kotv.com/e-clips/?id=6748
I went down there over my lunch break - got there about 12:50 or so - of course the car had already been taken away for "dry cleaning" - but the atmosphere was pretty cool even then.
I would like to express my thanks and gratitude to the Tulsa County officers on duty at the vault. They were smiling and breaking up pieces of the vault seal (cement/gunnite stuff) and handing these mementos out to people. (I got one!)
Their attitude and smiles must make Tulsa look like a great city. I was proud of these guys and gals in tan - GREAT JOB! Thanks for being genuinely nice and pleasant.
Hello,
sounds exciting. Again my question: if somebody took some pictures (or will take some tonight), please send them over here to Germany to jof@gmx.li
Thanks in advance,
Regards
Jörg
quote:
Originally posted by jof
Hello,
sounds exciting. Again my question: if somebody took some pictures (or will take some tonight), please send them over here to Germany to jof@gmx.li
Thanks in advance,
Regards
Jörg
They aren't great...but here are some pics I took with my cell phone out of the office window.
Link to photo Album (//%22http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z211/wavoka/%22)
Well, they've pulled the car out, I don't really see any harm to putting my "ground zero" photos up. You can see tears on both the fins in this photo.
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Tulsarama/HPIM0679.jpg)
Here's another angle of the left fin, you can tell the trim looks pretty filthy, time capsule is in this photo:
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Tulsarama/HPIM0678.jpg)
Another:
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Tulsarama/HPIM0675.jpg)
Let's see if you can make out the "Valerie" and "Carol"
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Tulsarama/HPIM0666.jpg)
Cool Day:
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/Tulsarama/HPIM0669.jpg)
Ahh.. the obligatory "self portrait"
Thank you wavoka and conan, this is exactly what I want [:)]
Are there more pictures, maybe from yesterday or the day before (when they started digging, or when they discovered the water)?
Did anyone make a scan of the pictures from 1957? I can imagine that the local newspapers were full of that during the last week.
Regards
Jörg jof@gmx.li
quote:
Originally posted by jof
Thank you wavoka and conan, this is exactly what I want [:)]
Are there more pictures, maybe from yesterday or the day before (when they started digging, or when they discovered the water)?
Did anyone make a scan of the pictures from 1957? I can imagine that the local newspapers were full of that during the last week.
Regards
Jörg jof@gmx.li
Here you go:
www.buriedcar.com
www.tulsaworld.com
Here is a nice media recap and some good pictures...
http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=129540
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Ahh.. the obligatory "self portrait"
I photo-shopped out the bottle of ripple I was having for lunch.
Car makes Yahoo news...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070615/ap_on_re_us/buried_belvedere
TULSA, Okla. - Hundreds watched Friday as a crane lifted a muddy package from a hole in the courthouse lawn: a 1957 Plymouth Belvedere buried to celebrate Oklahoma's 50 years of statehood.
The wrapped car — a gold and white two-door hardtop — appeared brown and red as it came out of the hole, but it was unclear whether the color represented dirt or rust. A bit of shiny chrome was visible on the bumper. The car spent the last half-century covered in three layers of protective material and encased in a 12-by-20-foot concrete vault, supposedly tough enough to withstand a nuclear attack.
But event officials already had to pump out several feet of water from its crypt. The car was placed on a flatbed truck so it could be unwrapped, spruced up and officially unveiled Friday evening at the Tulsa Convention Center. Spectators packed the streets to glimpse its journey.
Whether the car will start was unknown. Those who gathered to watch it being pulled out of the ground did not seem to care. "I just need to see it," said Marc Montague of Auckland, New Zealand, among the couple hundred spectators amassed at the downtown site Thursday afternoon. "I've been waiting 15 years for this."
Also buried with it were 10 gallons of gasoline — in case internal combustion engines became obsolete by 2007 — a case of beer, and the contents of a typical woman's handbag placed in the glove compartment: 14 bobby pins, a bottle of tranquilizers, a lipstick, a pack of gum, tissues, a pack of cigarettes, matches and $2.43.
There was also a spool of microfilm that recorded the entries of a contest to determine who would win the car: the person who guessed the closest of what Tulsa's population would be in 2007 — 382,457 — would win. That person, or his or her heirs, will get the car and a $100 savings account, worth about $1,200 today with interest.
Thursday afternoon, legendary hot rod builder Boyd Coddington inspected the vault and what he was able to see of the car with his crew. The task will fall to Coddington, host of the TV series American Hot Rod on The Learning Channel, to try to start the thing up at a ceremony Thursday evening. Tens of thousands of tickets were sold for the event. "We're optimistic," Coddington said. "I'm really concerned about the rust on the bottom of the car."
Back on the day the Belvedere was buried, all Bixby resident Marlene Parker wanted to do was find a photographer for her wedding. Catching a glimpse of the car being lowered into the ground was the last thing on her priority list.
Unfortunately, not for the photographer: He was shooting the burial. This weekend, the 70-year-old will celebrate 50 years of marriage and may come downtown to see what all the fuss was about back then. "Probably across the pond people know about it," Parker said. "If nobody knew where Tulsa, Oklahoma was before, they do now."
jof, look at the thread titled "few closeups of the dig" for a link to a lot of pictures of the initial opening. There is a pic there that shows water all the way up to and over the deck lid, even up to the fins.
We're also at the top of the New York Times!
www.nytimes.com
Here's a higher quality picture of that torn plastic over the fin section that I found today on flickr...
If water got under the wrapping layers, then there is no doubt that it would be ruined. Leaving a car under that much water over such a long period of time and you would know that water would seep into the car someway somehow. Even if the exterior portion was covered well, it would've still been able to rust from the inside out..instead of the outside in...or possibly from the inside and outside at the same time. But even after all these let down pictures, I'm still rootin' for this car. I'm still looking forward to its unveiling.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1106/553026940_d1b2d981fd_o.jpg)
Wow, that's great Tulsa's getting so much positive attention.
Did anyone find the keys for the car? I'd heard they were lost.
quote:
Originally posted by jiminy
jof, look at the thread titled "few closeups of the dig" for a link to a lot of pictures of the initial opening. There is a pic there that shows water all the way up to and over the deck lid, even up to the fins.
Yes, that's what I just did - I got the pictures, and the quality is useful.
Hope that you'll have a nice time at the event. Wish I could be there also, but beaming from here to the US within seconds will last another 50 years (at least)...
Jörg
They got it in the Convention Center after some nice maneuvering by the forklift driver. [:)]
On another positive note, the Arkansas looks like a very pretty waterway for all of Tulsa's visitors this weekend
Here's a web site that belongs to a Couch employee.
There are photos of the vault just as it was opened before they pumped any water out:
Belvedere Photos (//%22http://www.3d-racing.com/57/%22)
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Jorg,
Here's photos before they started pumping the hole:
(http://www.3d-racing.com/57/html/57_24.html)
(http://www.3d-racing.com/57/html/57_25.html)
To get them to show up, change your links to
http://www.3d-racing.com/57/assets/images/db_images/db_P10113861.jpg
and
http://www.3d-racing.com/57/assets/images/db_images/db_P10113871.jpg
OK with that clear close up photo of the tear you can see the damage, it does look serious. A little bit of rust like that is normally just the tip of the iceburg. Looks like it's just about rusted thru at the tip of the tail fin. Too bad that wrap didn't hold up. If the total amount of water in the vault over the 50 years was only 2-3 feet deep the parts of the car above it may be good shape. I was hoping so hard for a mint showroom new car to be coming out.
They aired up the tires before they moved it into the Convention Center. [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
Wow, that's great Tulsa's getting so much positive attention.
Did anyone find the keys for the car? I'd heard they were lost.
Yea, I have heard many comments on TV today that no one knows where the keys to the car are. Well duh, I bet they are either in the ignition switch of the car in the dashboard, or in the time capsule canister that was buried with the car.
We saw an undercarriage photo of the car yesterday when we were down there. They must have tucked the bag back under the car for the lift. It was hard to tell, but it looked like a bare rim in the photo, glad to hear there were tires to air up afterall. The bag was definitely compromised underneath. It was rusty, but you couldn't make out any holes. What we saw looked like a muffler, driveshaft and frame.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
They aired up the tires before they moved it into the Convention Center. [:D]
TulsaSooner has all the good info.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
We saw an undercarriage photo of the car yesterday when we were down there. They must have tucked the bag back under the car for the lift. It was hard to tell, but it looked like a bare rim in the photo, glad to hear there were tires to air up afterall. The bag was definitely compromised underneath. It was rusty, but you couldn't make out any holes. What we saw looked like a muffler, driveshaft and frame.
That's good news, that you could identify those car parts from the underside. Makes me think that any major water damage must have occurred within the past decade, and that it sat for many years undamaged. At this point however, the condition of the car is really immaterial; what really counts is the magnificent world-wide publicity this event has brought to our fair City, and the wonderful sense of civic pride I and my fellow Tulsans must feel!!
4 hours to go.....
A friend of a friend whose daughter is supposedly going to be there at the unwrapping said Coddington is saying it looks bad [:(] Don't know if that was before or after the unwrapping.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
TulsaSooner has all the good info.
[:D]
They had it down in the loading area for the Convention Center right by the parking garage which is near where I work. I went over there and watched for a few minutes, there was quite a crowd gathered.
They were checking the tires and there was definitely an air hose working....I find it hard to believe there would be tires to air, but that's what it looked like they were doing.
And the forklift driver got a nice hand after maneuvering that thing in between two support poles and through the loading door.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
They aired up the tires before they moved it into the Convention Center. [:D]
I figured for sure that the tires would have been gone, no matter how well the vault held up!?
Well I for one am going to sign off this forum now, because I don't want to see any more negative rumors about our wonderful car that may or may not be true. I will wait to see the Ch. 6 show tonight and view it for myself.
Everyone keep their fingers crossed...
They put air in the tires and the tires held air?... That must mean that the steel tire rims are sound and still seal air tight. The close up of the tail fin sez alot to me and the bottom of the car must of been in the water alot longer than the tail fin. That tail fin is almost rusted thru. Rust specks on the side of the metal can also be seen. This is so sad. Maybe they left the keys on the car seat, or maybe even forgot to put to put them in the vault, I guess everyone was very excited that day in 1957...
I'm just saying I heard the air hose and they lifted up the cover around the tires and it sounded like they were putting air in them.
Whether that's what they were doing or they actually held air.....I can't say. But that's what it looked like. Like I said, that would surprise the hell out of me but who knows?
According to Yahoo, it's a Pontiac, not a Plymouth:
Oklahomans Unearth Buried Car (//%22http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070615/ap_on_re_us/buried_belvedere%22)
What concerns me most is the photo of the water in the vault before they started pumping it out. That means the interior of the car was full of water, at least halfway.
The rear fin doesn't bother me that much, because we don't know what's dirt, what's cosmoline, and what's rust. The tail light lens looks almost the same as the fender, and we know it won't be rusty. I would have really expected to see more serious holes near the bottom of the quarter panel if it had been rusting for very long.
Who knows, just as the clouds parted, the rain stopped, and the sun came out for the Belvedere's first trip in 50 years, the car may rise from the ashes and drive onto the stage tonight under its own power.
Almost any car can be restored, and even moreso one that has this much notoriety. I guess it all depends on who ends up with it.
Although it looks like there's little chance of a shiny car debuting tonight, there may still be life left in her yet. I've got an old car in my garage right now that looks better and runs better than it has in decades, so it can be done.
Steve gone now? [:P]
Well, first they said it was real bad, now they're saying it's not as bad as they thought. Which I guess is still bad. Or somewhere between bad and good.
Door seals are generally designed to keep road spray and rain out. Ever notice how car interiors flood not long after people drive into standing water? Interior is likely to be pretty nasty unless they sealed around the door jambs anticipating something like this happening.
I am through for today, in Germany it's 10.44 PM now and I am going to bed. When I wake up tomorrow, there should be more news...
Regards Jörg
quote:
Originally posted by jof
I am through for today, in Germany it's 10.44 PM now and I am going to bed. When I wake up tomorrow, there should be more news...
Regards Jörg
By the time you are up you should have more than news. You should be able to catch the entire unveiling on the Internet. Whereabouts in Germany are you? Spent some time there and loved it! German food is some of the best on the planet.
I just had a friend remind me of a 1963 Thunderbird that sat in a flooded alley for at least 10-20 years with water standing up inside the floor of the car.
The interior was very moldy, and was stripped out and thrown away. The floors, while appearing to be very rusty, were in fact pretty solid and were sanded down and repainted.
The water covering them prevented air from reaching them, so the corrosion process was interupted. Possibly, this could also be the case with the Belvedere.
This is slightly off topic but I've been wondering what precautions were taken with the Plymouth Prowler that was buried in '98? I was there and I'd hate for it to turn out like this.
I remember reading that the Prowler was in an aluminum tube that had been pressurized.
Didn't they have to move it a few years after it was buried? Maybe they should do some checks every decade or so to ward off problems.
But I guess that would take away from the time capsule somewhat.
Chris, it is in a welded aluminum vault as I understand it. It's sealed better than a can of spam - from what I read anyway.
The one thing I noticed in the pic's of the water is that the water is relatively clear. So it would appear that that water had not been in there very long. I'm wondering that if over the years, it had filled to various levels then drained out, if thats what caused the tear in the cover. also if you look at the tear in the pic's it looks to have happened recently. If you look at the highlited areas you'll notice that they are clean.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/553026940_d1b2d981fd_o3.jpg)
When I saw the car before they moved it inside the CC, there was water all around it....somebody said they had sprayed some of it off. That water was very rusty looking to me, but it also could've just been mud/sediment but it did have that rust color to it.
We'll find out soon I guess.
quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan
The one thing I noticed in the pic's of the water is that the water is relatively clear. So it would appear that that water had not been in there very long. I'm wondering that if over the years, it had filled to various levels then drained out, if thats what caused the tear in the cover. also if you look at the tear in the pic's it looks to have happened recently. If you look at the highlited areas you'll notice that they are clean.
look at the water rings in the photo below, i think it is obvious that the water has been up and down at various levels over the years...
(http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/slides/DSC08692.JPG)
To those who think this whole Belvedere thing is a failure just because the car isn't in pristine condition:
Look at the number of posts on this thread. Look at the total number of views on the buriedcar.com Web site. Look at the thousands of visitors from all over the U.S. and several foreign countries to our city.
The Tulsarama people in 1957 were as crazy as a fox.
Whoever suggested that they do a display with a cutaway section of the vault, and the car in as-is condition, I think that's a great idea. This car is part of our history, rusty or not. To restore it would be historically dishonest IMHO. In fact, if they had opened that vault, and the tarp had been in pristine condition, I don't think it would be nearly as interesting...We'd know exactly what to expect. Now with all the speculation of "just how bad is it?", we're having some fun.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
To those who think this whole Belvedere thing is a failure just because the car isn't in pristine condition:
Look at the number of posts on this thread. Look at the total number of views on the buriedcar.com Web site. Look at the thousands of visitors from all over the U.S. and several foreign countries to our city.
The Tulsarama people in 1957 were as crazy as a fox.
Yup - not only here (and I joined in part because of the info about the car on tulsanow) - but here, too
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/tulsas-buried-belvedere-sees-the-sun-again/
The New York Times - about 200 comments. You can't BUY that kind of publicity and PR.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
OK with that clear close up photo of the tear you can see the damage, it does look serious. A little bit of rust like that is normally just the tip of the iceburg. Looks like it's just about rusted thru at the tip of the tail fin. Too bad that wrap didn't hold up. If the total amount of water in the vault over the 50 years was only 2-3 feet deep the parts of the car above it may be good shape. I was hoping so hard for a mint showroom new car to be coming out.
Might not be bubbling rust you see on the fin. It looks like that protective plastic they use on plexiglas.
quote:
Originally posted by tulsa1603
Whoever suggested that they do a display with a cutaway section of the vault, and the car in as-is condition, I think that's a great idea. This car is part of our history, rusty or not. To restore it would be historically dishonest IMHO. In fact, if they had opened that vault, and the tarp had been in pristine condition, I don't think it would be nearly as interesting...We'd know exactly what to expect. Now with all the speculation of "just how bad is it?", we're having some fun.
You can send your check to....heh...j/k...
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Well I for one am going to sign off this forum now, because I don't want to see any more negative rumors about our wonderful car that may or may not be true. I will wait to see the Ch. 6 show tonight and view it for myself.
Everyone keep their fingers crossed...
I tried and managed to be gone from TulsaNow for 2 hours, but burning curiosity got the best of me. I could have just lurked as a guest, but thought I would be honest and sign on!
2 hours to go ...
I hear the unveiling is actually at 8 is that the case......
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
To those who think this whole Belvedere thing is a failure just because the car isn't in pristine condition:
Look at the number of posts on this thread. Look at the total number of views on the buriedcar.com Web site. Look at the thousands of visitors from all over the U.S. and several foreign countries to our city.
The Tulsarama people in 1957 were as crazy as a fox.
You got that exactly right rwarn17588. The condition of the car is really not the point now. The publicity for Tulsa and the fact that the old gal has survived as well as it seems to have is priceless. I am still positively giddy about tonight's reveal, whatever we may find. Has any other city in the U.S. had something like this before? No. Did any other U.S. city bury an automobile in the 20th century to be uncovered 50 years in the future? No. I think is is really a monumental event for pop culture fans. Not as significant as the fall of communism in Eastern Europe and the Berlin Wall, but a heck of a lot of fun and wildly entertaining!
I think we definitely need to bury another one. Maybe in the same vault, with better protection and sealant. And a way to drain. If we don't do it, somebody else will. OKC in particular might have the arrogance to do it and make like it was their idea all along.
One of the neat things is watching the video of the people burying the car. A lot of them knew they would not live to see the end result, but they did it for us anyway. That's something we need to pass on to future Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by jiminy
I think we definitely need to bury another one. Maybe in the same vault, with better protection and sealant. And a way to drain. If we don't do it, somebody else will. OKC in particular might have the arrogance to do it and make like it was their idea all along.
One of the neat things is watching the video of the people burying the car. A lot of them knew they would not live to see the end result, but they did it for us anyway. That's something we need to pass on to future Tulsa.
Funny, I think OKC and Tulsa will forever be in a love/hate (mostly hate) relationship and always be trying to trump each other. Not necessarily a bad thing.
As I was watching the big lift today at noon on TV Ch. 2, I was really touched when the camera panned the live audience in the bleachers. There were many people there that were involved in the original burial back in 1957. It was thrilling and touching that so many of them were still with us today and could attend the ceremony. Thanks so much to all of you, ladies and gentlemen!
They've already covered up the vault.
At the rate it's been raining, we'll have grass covering it in a week. You'll never know there was anything there.
At the very least, they should install a plaque stating what was once buried on that spot.
They still use cosmolene on new cars. A friend told me Porsche coats the bottoms of their cars with cosmolene to protect them from salt water during shipping. So, it must be good stuff since it's still used.
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
They've already covered up the vault.
At the rate it's been raining, we'll have grass covering it in a week. You'll never know there was anything there.
At the very least, they should install a plaque stating what was once buried on that spot.
They still use cosmolene on new cars. A friend told me Porsche coats the bottoms of their cars with cosmolene to protect them from salt water during shipping. So, it must be good stuff since it's still used.
The military still uses it as well for various things.
Did they not plan or rehearse any of this? It looks like amateur hour.
Also....commercials? C'mon KOTV you have got to be kidding me!
It's too bad they couldn't have used a little common sense back in 1957 and realized it would have been cheaper and the car would have been in almost pristine condition if they would've put the car in a vault ABOVE GROUND.. It's a damn shame that it's nothing but a big f__n pile of RUST that most likely (no, definitely) permeates every single millimeter of that car.
Kick donkey! At least the time capsule was intact. Brought tears to my eyes to see the flag come out.
KOTV YOU FREAKING SUCK!!!!!
Note for next time: Make a capsule big enough to put the car in.
I think if there is a winner of the car and if they accept the car as their prize, the city of Tulsa will buy it back. If not, they should.
hummm - more commercials than actual show... Geeez, thanks KOTV.
KOTV coverage sucks!
Can't even get the audio on, and when it's on it's not in sync. The commercials are extremely excessive and ill-timed.
I noticed OSU students polished part of the front bumper to a mirror finish how come no-one is talking about that?
Seeing the car in it's current condition, I have to agree with Boyd Coddington - leave it as it is! I think it would make a wondeful exhibit at the Historical Society.
So glad that at least the capsule held - and the guesses are intact!
I'm very anxious to see the pictures in that capsule of Tulsa from back in 1957. I plan on going to that car show tomorrow to see in person what I couldn't tonight.
I look near the top to see the website stats and it says 8 active members and 77 guests. Interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by tulsa1603
Seeing the car in it's current condition, I have to agree with Boyd Coddington - leave it as it is! I think it would make a wondeful exhibit at the Historical Society.
So glad that at least the capsule held - and the guesses are intact!
With the car and all the stuff in it, you could make a museum or at least a huge section of one. They should clean it up, get some chemical treatment on it and keep it under plexiglass.
Whoever wins, donate it!
Lets use all of this as the beginnings of Tulsa History & Children's museum.
Shame on KOTV for the too-frequent commercials. I don't blame the people doing the show, it's live and they didn't really know what to expect, so I think overall they did OK. (Although it would have been 950% better WITHOUT the retired AM talk radio deejay.)
I think just cleaning up the car will do wonders for it. No doubt water got in the engine and rusted it solid. It could probably still be torn down, machined, and rebuilt.
Interior door panels, seat covers, etc., are all reproduced, so the car could be restored if someone wanted to. At any rate, they will need to take steps to preserve it as it is, or it will continue to deteriorate.
I'm going tomorrow too. I really want to see the car myself. 12x zoom at my side...
Yeah, I thought Sharon King-whatshername did a far better job as emcee than John Ehrling did.
And KOTV was going overboard with the commercials I thought. Sheesh, it's only an hour...if it was a heavy thunderstorm in Pushmataha, you wold never have even considered running a commercial. [:(!]
But...I'm happy for the time capsule. I'm glad something was salvaged out of there.
Well, by saying we should leave her just as she is, I think Boyd is basically saying she's not restorable. I do think she might be more of a spectacle now than if she was mint. Given that they found some of the beer inside, the back panel is probably gone, possibly the firewall and floorboards as well. It might literally be a car that is only being held together by rust. I wish they had spent more time talking about the car and it's condition, and where the preparations with the vault, coverings and cosmoline failed, and less time on, oh I don't know, commercials??? I would specifically like to know why they don't think it's restorable, what problems someone would face if they tried, etc. Like are the body panels rotted through, is the frame still sound, can the windows and chrome be cleaned up? It was very low in the back, but that could have just been the coils. I hope they do try and clean her up as much as possible, but maybe they will leave that decision to the owner.
Yeah, they went through it like kids in a candy store....but that's alright I guess. I'd sure like to have seen it all in pristine condition like the time.
I think they should do whatever they need to do to keep it from getting any worse and leave it like it is and display it somewhere for everyone to see. It won't be the same to restore it since that isn't how it came out, just keep it from getting worse (however that might be accomplished) and keep it and its contents for future generations to see.
But like was said earlier, it will be up to the owner.
Oh...and I agree with jiminy. When Boyd said to leave it like it is, and even when they first came on and said they'd leave it just as they found it, I figured they all knew it wasn't salvagable.
I doubt it had coil springs, especially in the back. Keep in mind they had a decent amount of weight in the truck and I think the rear tires went flat again.
It wasn't rusted through but it was bad enough that they can't just buff it. With the sheetmetal having no holes in it, the frame should be fine as is and it will be in good shape to move around for restoration and storage.
Oh right, they had leaf springs back then. I bet those failed.
Well they polished up a spot of the chrome, I wish they had tried that on a spot of the body as well.
quote:
Originally posted by jiminy
Oh right, they had leaf springs back then. I bet those failed.
Well they polished up a spot of the chrome, I wish they had tried that on a spot of the body as well.
They couldn't because Ehrling was having a spasm or KOTV was having a commercial. [:D]
Didn't they say they found the entries in the capsule but it wasn't on microfilm like they thought? It was written down on paper and rolled up like a scroll?
I don't mean the post cards that Ehrling mentioned but I thought towards the end the said they had the paper with the entires.
I could be wrong on that, it was probably time for a Dodge commercial. [:(!]
Absolutely! KOTV should be ashamed. Did we really need all of those commercials? What poor coverage of what should have been a great show. John Ehrling should have stayed retired. He is losing it. Sharon King Davis should have the common sense to know when to govern her tounge and stay silent. Jack Frank was wasted here and should have had more to do. They should have spent more time and used the cameras to show more of the car. Hopefully Jack Frank can salvage this embarassment and produce a quality DVD of the days events.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I doubt it had coil springs, especially in the back. Keep in mind they had a decent amount of weight in the truck and I think the rear tires went flat again.
Wasn't 1957 the introduction of Chrysler's Torsion-Aire suspension, with twisting torsion bars instead of leaf or coil springs? I think it was quite a car suspension technology revolution at the time and much touted in the advertising. I think our rusty '57 Belvedere has this torsion bar suspension. Packard also had a variation of torsion bar suspension at the time.
I recall Chrysler also pioneered unibody construction for cars; Lincoln also had unibody construction on their late 1950's Continenal Mark line. Sad pieces of crap, those Lincoln Mark III, IV, and V as those cars had the structual integrity of a worn out rubber band! Ford/Lincoln so hated those cars that they reverted to the Mark III name when they reintroduced the series in the late 1960s.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
They couldn't because Ehrling was having a spasm or KOTV was having a commercial. [:D]
Yeah, what was up with the commercials? They only had 1 break I think the first 30 minutes, then they starting showing 2 or 3 commercials every 3-5 minutes.
I would bet you that car is restorable. Boyd is probably thinking that it will never be worth what it will cost to restore, but very few of them are. Even the most expensive Cadillacs and Lincolns usually cost more to restore than you could ever sell them for.
You do it for the love of the car. Tear it down to the frame and do a frame off restoration, if need be. Then stick it in the lobby of the new glass City Hall when it's done. Talk about making an impression on visitors to the city! What other city could claim such a thing?
I doubt the winner is going to want the car in this condition, unless they love old cars, and if that's the case, that might be the best thing for the car. But I would think it would be a nice gesture to give the car to the city, and allow it to be on display somewhere.
The more I think about it, the more I say it needs to be restored to show car status, and serve as a goodwill ambassador for the City of Tulsa for many, many years to come. What a story it has to tell!
No one wants to see an old rusty car, you can find those at salvages across the country. It will cost a lot of money to bring it back to like new, but I think it would be worth it.
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
I would bet you that car is restorable. Boyd is probably thinking that it will never be worth what it will cost to restore, but very few of them are. Even the most expensive Cadillacs and Lincolns usually cost more to restore than you could ever sell them for.
You do it for the love of the car. Tear it down to the frame and do a frame off restoration, if need be. Then stick it in the lobby of the new glass City Hall when it's done. Talk about making an impression on visitors to the city! What other city could claim such a thing?
I doubt the winner is going to want the car in this condition, unless they love old cars, and if that's the case, that might be the best thing for the car. But I would think it would be a nice gesture to give the car to the city, and allow it to be on display somewhere.
The more I think about it, the more I say it needs to be restored to show car status, and serve as a goodwill ambassador for the City of Tulsa for many, many years to come. What a story it has to tell!
No one wants to see an old rusty car, you can find those at salvages across the country. It will cost a lot of money to bring it back to like new, but I think it would be worth it.
I'm with you, if it's at all possible. We can always keep pictures of what it looked like out of the vault. Wouldn't that make a cool exhibit? I bet if they undertook it, they would get a lot of donations, not just from Tulsa, but from all over.
I hereby decree that all my state sales and income taxes for the next ten years be diverted from OKC MAP projects to the Tulsa Belvedere Restoration.
Some info about the Belvedere:
The front suspension was torsion bars, the rear was assymetrical stub springs. So, the rear springs could be shot, or the rear body suspension mounting areas could have given out due to rust. 1957 was the first year for "Torsion-Aire Ride."
The car was Desert Gold with Sand Dune White inserts.
I really hope they find a winner quickly. 5 years in trust is too long.
It would be cool if the car was donated back, restored, and placed in the new Route 66 museum with an exhibit mentioned above. If it not restored, it will eventually turn to dust.
Can anyone answer why they didn't put the capsule above ground in '57? I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of the fanfare with the wrapping and such. Maybe they thought it would be preserved in case of a nuclear attack, which was the predominant thinking of the time? I'm really having a hard time looking at 50 years wasted on a piece of rust that could've been brought out in pristine condition for the world to admire. As it is, I think most of the country, if not the world, is wondering "What were they thinking in Tulsee, OKiehoma back then?" I think the city came out looking like a bunch of hicks due to the condition of the car because of how it was "preserved" and the nature of the televised event.. Not to mention the damn country-donkey sounding people hosting the thing.
Sad...yet a bittersweet end to such a long awaited event..
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1089/553556502_b304d46025_o.jpg)
Lister, I would say that they buried it below ground because it was traditional to bury time capsules. Heck, in 1998, we still buried the Prowler.
I think pretty much all time capsules are under ground aren't they?
^^Yea...cuz there would be a bunch of thieves out there with old skool priceless memorabilia..
They always bury them.
Going back to the museum idea. I think a new time capsule, with drainage, and a plexiglass side window would be neat. So people could look into the vault part.
Maybe the vault exhibit could have a dummy car under the not-so-protective covering.
and then refill it with water?
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
Can anyone answer why they didn't put the capsule above ground in '57? I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of the fanfare with the wrapping and such. Maybe they thought it would be preserved in case of a nuclear attack, which was the predominant thinking of the time? I'm really having a hard time looking at 50 years wasted on a piece of rust that could've been brought out in pristine condition for the world to admire. As it is, I think most of the country, if not the world, is wondering "What were they thinking in Tulsee, OKiehoma back then?" I think the city came out looking like a bunch of hicks due to the condition of the car because of how it was "preserved" and the nature of the televised event.. Not to mention the damn country-donkey sounding people hosting the thing.
Well Lister, buried time capsules were kind of the rage in mid-twentieth century America. Hindsight is always 20/20, right?
She was a heap of rust, especially inside, but I sure got a big thrill from all the anticipation and hype over this past week. I was glad the time capsule survived with its contents remarkably intact. The car, well they did the best they could I suppose, and I find it great that we have what survived and they were able to resurect it intact.
quote:
Originally posted by breitee
Absolutely! KOTV should be ashamed. Did we really need all of those commercials? What poor coverage of what should have been a great show. John Ehrling should have stayed retired. He is losing it. Sharon King Davis should have the common sense to know when to govern her tounge and stay silent. Jack Frank was wasted here and should have had more to do. They should have spent more time and used the cameras to show more of the car. Hopefully Jack Frank can salvage this embarassment and produce a quality DVD of the days events.
Agreed.
I'm thrilled the car came out in one piece and the time capsule was very cool.
But...did they even attempt to rehearse the television presentation? (I know you can't rehearse for the unknown...but the overall presentation...meh) I recognized John Erhling but have no idea who the lady was. But the emceeing (sp?) between the two of them was almost unbearable. Too many people on stage and too many people talking at once.
quote:
Originally posted by charky
quote:
Originally posted by breitee
Absolutely! KOTV should be ashamed. Did we really need all of those commercials? What poor coverage of what should have been a great show. John Ehrling should have stayed retired. He is losing it. Sharon King Davis should have the common sense to know when to govern her tounge and stay silent. Jack Frank was wasted here and should have had more to do. They should have spent more time and used the cameras to show more of the car. Hopefully Jack Frank can salvage this embarassment and produce a quality DVD of the days events.
Agreed.
I'm thrilled the car came out in one piece and the time capsule was very cool.
But...did they even attempt to rehearse the television presentation? (I know you can't rehearse for the unknown...but the overall presentation...meh) I recognized John Erhling but have no idea who the lady was. But the emceeing (sp?) between the two of them was almost unbearable. Too many people on stage and too many people talking at once.
The lady was Sharon King-Davis, who is the Chair of the state's centennial celebration. She also owns Kings Point at 61st and Yale and Kings Landing near 101st and Riverside. While I agree the televised portion of the event left a little to be desired, I thought the event as a whole was done well and brought lots of attention to Tulsa from around the US and the globe. Hats off to Sharon!!
Tulsa's car made the national news on all 3 networks. I really hoped so much that the car would of came out showroom new.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Tulsa's car made the national news on all 3 networks. I really hoped so much that the car would of came out showroom new.
I would bet it would have been in great shape had a drain been installed in the vault to drain out any water or moisture that might have seeped in. Considering all the trouble they went to, the additional cost for this precaution wouldn't have been a deal killer. A valve to prevent water from entering the vault could have been installed to make sure the vault stayed dry in case of sewer backup, flooding, etc.
I'm pretty sure they were confident they had any water issues under control. They expected the bag to keep the car dry, but likely never anticipated that the vault would fill up completely with water at some point, which it seems it did.
I wonder if we'll get an official statement on what they believe happened. After viewing the vault and inspecting the car, I would think they could come pretty close to determining what happened, when it happened, etc. For all we know, the car could have been high and dry up until the last 10 years or so. I think if it had been exposed to water during the sixties, it would have had much more severe damage than it does. I'll bet the water in the vault was a fairly recent event.
What a shame, but I do believe the car should be restored. What does it say about Tulsa to allow such a treasure to remain in deteriorated condition? It tells the world that we don't take care of our city, and from the looks of our streets, most would believe that to be a fact.
I think the Belvedere would make an excellent "spokesperson" for the City of Tulsa once restored.
Of course, that depends on whether the city has ownership of the car. I highly doubt anyone other than a car collector would want it in this condition, as it isn't even a good parts car at this point. And heaven help us if the winner decides to part it on eBay! That would be a true insult.
I really don't think she should be restored. I like her just as she is.
I would like to see the winner donate the car back to the city. I would like to see them create a nice platform with the Belvedere encased in a glass box with the time capsule contents displayed in glass cases around her. A neat location for it would be the Cyrus Avery Plaza.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
The lady was Sharon King-Davis, who is the Chair of the state's centennial celebration. She also owns Kings Point at 61st and Yale and Kings Landing near 101st and Riverside. While I agree the televised portion of the event left a little to be desired, I thought the event as a whole was done well and brought lots of attention to Tulsa from around the US and the globe. Hats off to Sharon!!
After seeing her name...I know who she is now (I live right down the street from Kings Point).
The PR for this event was invaluable for the city...regardless of the condition of the vehicle.
How they saw it across the pond.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6750000/newsid_6759800/6759889.stm?bw=nb&mp=wm
Nashville chiming in here.
This event really sucked me in.
I became so emotionally involved I cried very sad to see the old car go in new and come out like that.
I don't care what Boyd say's, I hope he has a change of heart.
Come on Tulsa the world is watching and we need something to feel good about.
RESTORE THAT CAR!
It's unrestorable....There is not a lick of sheet metal that is restorable....It should be left alone.....Trying to restore a car in this condition will do more harm than good.....You would end up with nothing before it was all over with.....
I would rather see them build a "mr belvedere" restored to look like "ms belvedere" went into the ground than restore the original. All they could keep is the bumper, frame, trim, and emblems. The sheet metal is generally not restoreable if it has any level of rust at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
It's unrestorable....There is not a lick of sheet metal that is restorable....It should be left alone.....Trying to restore a car in this condition will do more harm than good.....You would end up with nothing before it was all over with.....
If the car is truly that bad, there will be nothing left of it in a few years anyway. Once exposed to oxygen and humidity, the rust will likely accelerate. So, steps are going to have to be taken to stop the rust or the car will literally fall apart.
I've restored some pretty bad cars over the years, most of them you could never tell when they were done. I've restored cars where the rear quarter panels were half gone - literally - there was nothing there. I've fixed cars where there were millions of tiny little holes in the roof. And cars where you could see the ground zipping by below your feet because there was no floor.
I haven't seen the car up close yet, but if it truly is as bad as you say, something will need to be done if there's to be anything at all left.
A Mr. Belvedere, wasn't that a cheeky show from the '80's?
Does anybody know who won the poor thing?
Does anyone know what become of those two famous Miss. Belvedere Girls? They even signed their name inside the vault I understand. It is very sad to see such a great new car go in the vault back in 1957 and come out rusty in 2007. It seems so wasteful to have a good car with only 7 miles on the clock ruined. They should of took extra precautions in '57 because of the high value of the item. Also this may be called "Cheating" but as preventive maintence precautions they could of checked the vault every so many years and monitor it. As soon as water was seen they could of sliped in a hose to pump it out. I saw a picture of the inside of the car and it looks bad, they had such nice dashboards in those late 50's cars, and it's all ruined on this one. Without viewing the car in person it's hard for anyone to say it's too far gone The engine may have to be replaced it's most likely un-rebuildable.[:(]
You folks in the "we need to do something about the car" crowd need to realize that the ownership of the Belvedere is still uncertain.
Someone guessed closest to Tulsa's 2007 population, and he/she or the heirs will be the rightful owners of the car. We'll know who it is probably next week.
Ultimately, the decision on what to do to the car is in the owner's hands. Let him or her decide.
I think we're assuming that whoever wins it is not going to want it. Although, if the rumored Chrysler $100,000 offer is real and still good, I'm sure they would get it.
I am hoping my grandfather made a good guess. Then my parents, uncles and us grandkids can argue about the car for a while.
Maybe we can just split the car into pieces and I can get the steering wheel.
I heard one guess was something like 389,000, that's darn close. It was intresting that the names were on pieces of paper NOT on microfilm, unless they did both or at the last minute decided to just leave the names on paper, and the micro-film rumor lingered on for 50 years. The little time capsule held tight, the 48 star flag came out brand new. I wonder if they have a plan should a tie turn up with two winners, or maybe back in 1957 the rules were that if you picked a population-guess figure someone else already picked you had to pick another number, to avoid that problem in 2007.
People around the world are laughing at Tulsa after this debacle. We put a car in the ground to survive a nuclear attack but don't really think about protecting it against 50 full years of water damage. Oh, wait, we put a bag over it - a bag that did more damage than good, and held water in without letting air circulate, thus ensuring the moisture stayed in the bag once it got in.
People that are saying they "love her like she is" are just in denial and trying to minimize/do damage control to save some face, which makes it even more pathetic. The thing would have been MUCH better off sitting in a salvage yard for the last 50 years. Never before has a time capsule actually been WORSE for the objects contained within but Tulsa somehow managed to pull that one off.
On another note, if they even tried to restore this car it wouldn't even be the same because they would literally have to replace the entire thing (down to the frame) with other parts. Nothing from the old car would remain.
And for those that are saying put it in a glass case for display; first off, why?" Why would you want to display such a failure in basic chemistry and physics? Second, the thing would continue to rust even further and fall apart before our very eyes.
Bad, bad publicity for Tulsa and the people giving the presentation sounded like they came straight out of teaching Sunday school with those backwoods accents and rambling over one another during the whole thing. Tasteless and poorly planned. I'll be ashamed to even bring the subject up from now on.
"Yeah, Tulsa tried that time capsule thing and we couldn't pull it off. Who would've thought that water would have gotten in to a non-airtight container underground over the course of 50 years?"
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The car could be saved in its current condition. It could be placed into a display case and then the case would be filled with argon, or something like that, and then seal the case. Much in the same way they protect the U.S. Constitution and Declaration of Independence.
Ok, Lister, much of what you said is simply not true or unknown as yet. And the rest is unreasonably negative. Yes there are people on the coasts who put us down every chance they get, and people outside the US who are anxious to make fun of the ugly Americans, but there's nothing we can do to please those people. And we don't care to try. Are you even from Tulsa? Maybe you should be from somewhere else.
I keep thinking that there had to be something back in 1957 that could have preserved the car better. I suppose that there wasn't.
I went down to the convention center today to see this car and I'm glad I did. The car was something to see in its rusty state and the car show was one of the best I have ever seen. The lights were dark so my picks didn't come out too well but these cars could shine in the dark. [;)]
1957 Plymouth Belvedere Uncovered
CLICK HERE------> http://tinyurl.com/3bkfwy
Belvedere Car Show_Indoors (Set1)
CLICK HERE------> http://tinyurl.com/38sspm
Belvedere Car Show_Indoors (Set2)
CLICK HERE------> http://tinyurl.com/2oktkj
Belvedere Car Show_Outdoors
CLICK HERE------> http://tinyurl.com/39wbcf
quote:
Originally posted by Johnboy976
I keep thinking that there had to be something back in 1957 that could have preserved the car better. I suppose that there wasn't.
The most obvious thing would be to install a drain. The bag and cosmoline would probably have protected it from moisture in the air, they just didn't count on the vault filling with water apparently.
I took a few shots this evening.
Here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tulsamini/sets/72157600377049057/detail/
^^I think they could've put a dual barrier around the actual capsule itself to prevent water from getting to it. On top of that, I also think they could've cemented over the entire area. I mean, that area is a concrete jungle anyway so why no cement over the entire site.But i'm sure back then, they were confident in their work that the cement vault itself would be sufficient enough to seal it in.
I was in attendance at the car show today. I came across one picture that I found interesting. The caption below this picture read something like "torrential rains delayed something on June 1, 1957". Maybe this rain played a detrimental role in the cement's ability to cure correctly...but I don't know anything about cement so it's just a thought...
(Innapropriate comment removed)
(Innapropriate comment removed)
Here's a few pictures from the car show:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/tulsapoolplyr88/DSC00463.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/tulsapoolplyr88/DSC00464.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/tulsapoolplyr88/DSC00465.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/tulsapoolplyr88/DSC00466.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/tulsapoolplyr88/DSC00467.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/tulsapoolplyr88/DSC00468.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/tulsapoolplyr88/DSC00469.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b49/tulsapoolplyr88/DSC00470.jpg)
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Wow. Love old cars. Thanks for sharing those pics.
For some reason this made slashdot.org
Slashdot article/discusion (//%22http://slashdot.org/articles/07/06/17/1642250.shtml%22)
WoW the pictures look great. I wish I could see it in person. That car guy Boyd Coddington said it's not worth to rebuild it... If it was a '57 Chevy you get parts very easy for it, for a '57 Plymouth I don't know. Tulsa should start a Tridition to bury a car time capsule every 50 years. That would be very cool and draw national attention. I heard that There are no other known time capsules with cars in them any place in the USA -aside form that other Tulsa time capsule with that $300,000 car in it-.
This is now the second most replied to thread in TulsaNow forums.
It just passed the Towerview apartments discussion and is just 16 away from the number one topic..."what do you remember".
quote:
Originally posted by TurismoDreamin
^^I think they could've put a dual barrier around the actual capsule itself to prevent water from getting to it. On top of that, I also think they could've cemented over the entire area. I mean, that area is a concrete jungle anyway so why no cement over the entire site.But i'm sure back then, they were confident in their work that the cement vault itself would be sufficient enough to seal it in.
I was in attendance at the car show today. I came across one picture that I found interesting. The caption below this picture read something like "torrential rains delayed something on June 1, 1957". Maybe this rain played a detrimental role in the cement's ability to cure correctly...but I don't know anything about cement so it's just a thought...
I think most of the water entered from the lid leaking. A simple way to of saved the car would be to have done maintence on the vault now & then, perhaps a make a hole in the top to check for water inside and if found slip in a hose to pump it out. Maybe every 5 or 10 years or so they could of drilled a hole in the top to monitor it. Any new time capsule for another car to be opened in 2057 will have to totaly sealed tight no fooling around if any doubt then have a vault inside a vault. I favor Tulsa start a triditon of cars in time capsules every 50 years. TulsaRamma!
Thanks everyone for the pictures....I have some as well but they are still on the camera......
Now...Whats done is done lets see if we can do what we can to preserve her the way she is and make something good come out of this for the future.....I have had a great time with it so far......I still like my idea best of all...haha....Lets raise the vault cut out the east wall in diplay the car in the vault in her current condition....To me filing the vault with dirt and forgeting about it would be another tragedy in itself....The car and all that went with it should be together in museum of it's own or with
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I think most of the water entered from the lid leaking.
Me too, I think the vault lid and its sealing was definately the culprit and the big weak point of the tomb. The lid was in three sections, and gunnite was used to seal these sections together as well as attach it to the vault walls. The lid did not crack or cave in, but the seals were the weak point. If they had made the top in one piece and also used some heavy silicone or some type of rubberized caulking (probably not available then), then the results may have been quite different.
Was the car buried with the front windows down, or were they actually able to crank down the front windows? If they did, did they try to lower the rear seat windows too?
I was rather disappointed that they did not clean up the exterior more before it was revealed to the public. At least they could have washed off gently as much debris as possible (and a little more water would not have hurted her one bit), wiped off the dirt from the windows, bumpers, wheels and trim, and then kept it behind a curtain. I guess all they did between 1:00 PM and 7:00 PM was air up the tires and pop the hood. Perhaps they chose to do nothing out of fear of any further damage, and maybe they made the right decision.
Looks to me like the front torsion bar suspension is still sound enough to support the weight of the car, but the rear suspension failed. I find it rather cool that they could still air up some of the original tires.
I hope the car winner(s) donates it so it can be restored. Perhaps "restored" is a misnomer; "rebuilt" is a better term. To leave it as-is will only let the car slowly disintegrate to dust over time. A rebuilt car would at least preserve surviving parts the best they can and should create a beautiful car for many years to come.
Another idea would be if back in 1957 they put a plastic sheet over the top of the vault.. I bet the gunite cracked and leaked a few years after 1957, The vault & lid joint looks like it leaked too as water streaks can be seen on the vault walls.. The average life span for a roof on a building is around 20 years, this vault lid went more than double that time.. I seen some close up pictures of the drivers side and it really looks bad there, rust is even around the windows, perhaps from the inside out. I don't think anything can be done with car. I'm no expert but it looks to me like this car sat in the water for a very long time. If the winner does not want the car, will the car go to the 2nd guess and 3rd guess untill they find someone who wants it? or what will happen? I think it should go on display myself. I would like to see them bury another car for 2057.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Was the car buried with the front windows down, or were they actually able to crank down the front windows? If they did, did they try to lower the rear seat windows too?
I was rather disappointed that they did not clean up the exterior more before it was revealed to the public. At least they could have washed off gently as much debris as possible (and a little more water would not have hurted her one bit), wiped off the dirt from the windows, bumpers, wheels and trim, and then kept it behind a curtain. I guess all they did between 1:00 PM and 7:00 PM was air up the tires and pop the hood. Perhaps they chose to do nothing out of fear of any further damage, and maybe they made the right decision.
Looks to me like the front torsion bar suspension is still sound enough to support the weight of the car, but the rear suspension failed. I find it rather cool that they could still air up some of the original tires.
I hope the car winner(s) donates it so it can be restored. Perhaps "restored" is a misnomer; "rebuilt" is a better term. To leave it as-is will only let the car slowly disintegrate to dust over time. A rebuilt car would at least preserve surviving parts the best they can and should create a beautiful car for many years to come.
I noticed that one or both of the vent windows are missing. I'll bet they popped it off and reached in through that opening to roll the window down. Guess it's a good thing it didn't have power windows, which were an option in 1957.)
I don't think they've managed to get the doors open yet, they were trying to on the TV special, but I never saw either opened.
Hopefully they will let us know what steps are going to be taken to preserve the car, because they won't be able to just stick it somewhere and expect it to not keep deteriorating.
I also wish they'd cleaned it up a bit more, perhaps they will now that it's been on display. That dirt will just trap moisture and allow the rust to progress. I was surprised at how shiny the chrome seems to be, it normally rusts almost as bad as the body.
MY PICTURES!!
These are from the car show Saturday. My pictures uploaded backwards so you won't find pictures of the Belvedere itself until the second page of the photo set.
Link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/honzie101/sets/72157600383985371/
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
I also wish they'd cleaned it up a bit more, perhaps they will now that it's been on display. That dirt will just trap moisture and allow the rust to progress. I was surprised at how shiny the chrome seems to be, it normally rusts almost as bad as the body.
Yea, I thought that was the main point of the 7-hour delay from unearthing to display, to clean her up and check out the engine for possible starting. Granted the engine was a lost cause, but they sure could have done much more cosmetic cleaning. I watched it from TV, but I was fully expecting to see her washed off as well as possible, with the windows cleaned at the very least. Looks like the officials just stood around and "chewed the fat" for 6 hours.
I've noticed a lot of you have suggested burying another car. This has already been done. In 1998 a Plymouth Prowler (keeping with the Plymouth theme) was was put in a vault in centinial park downtown. It was not put underground as the Belvedier. Instead, it was placed in an above ground vault, in hopes of keeping some of the problems that have becoming apparent at bay. It was also placed inside a plastic "box" inside the vault, sealed air tight. The plastic box was filled with an inert gas to protect the paint. All oil and fluids were drained and replaced with synthetics that won't breakdown.
This project was done in celebration of Tulsa's 100th birthday. Here's to seeing it coming out in prestine condition in '48
quote:
Originally posted by custosnox
I've noticed a lot of you have suggested burying another car. This has already been done. In 1998 a Plymouth Prowler (keeping with the Plymouth theme) was was put in a vault in centinial park downtown. It was not put underground as the Belvedier. Instead, it was placed in an above ground vault, in hopes of keeping some of the problems that have becoming apparent at bay. It was also placed inside a plastic "box" inside the vault, sealed air tight. The plastic box was filled with an inert gas to protect the paint. All oil and fluids were drained and replaced with synthetics that won't breakdown.
This project was done in celebration of Tulsa's 100th birthday. Here's to seeing it coming out in prestine condition in '48
I think most of us here are well aware of the '98 Plymouth Prowler and the facts of its burial.
I will be 91 years old, should I survive to see the Prowler rolled out. Heck, Max True, the man whose company constructed the gunnite vault for the 1957 Plymouth is alive and well and was in the stands when they lifted her from the ground. I felt sorry for him that it was not in better shape, but felt really thrilled that he was here today to see the car lifted from the vault.
So what's on the agenda for the Belvedere now?
I know that the winning name is supposed to be announced sometime this week, and they announced that they had to allow 5 years for the winner to come forward.
They're going to have to do quite a bit to stabilize the car, or 5 years from now it will be even worse than it is now.
My dream scenario? The winner says they can't take the car, and gives it to the City of Tulsa. Then, the Chrysler dealers in town award the winner a new Chrysler or Dodge car.
At that point, the City of Tulsa could do extensive photography of the car, and open an account for donations to restore it. Perhaps even a voluntary $1/month to water bills or something for those who would like to see the car restored.
I think it would be a disgrace to leave it the way it is. It needs to be made like new again. I'd sure like to see what the inner side of the fenders and rear quarters looks like. The under side of the hood doesn't look too bad, mostly surface rust. The deck lid inner supports have come unwelded, but deck lids should be easy to find for this car.
Right now on eBay, there are NOS taillight assemblies, rockers, and lots of other things. I think that would be an easy and worthwhile car to do. I know people would come from all over the world to see it after it's done. Perhaps another big "Belvedere unearthing" celebration in 5 years?
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
So what's on the agenda for the Belvedere now?
I know that the winning name is supposed to be announced sometime this week, and they announced that they had to allow 5 years for the winner to come forward.
Right now on eBay, there are NOS taillight assemblies, rockers, and lots of other things. I think that would be an easy and worthwhile car to do. I know people would come from all over the world to see it after it's done.
The winning entry is supposed to be announced this coming Friday, 6-22-07. I suppose they will pick the winner from the surviving post card entries that were found in the time capsule. A microfilm may or may not have existed, but they have to use the best surviving records we have.
I absolutely think the car should be restored. Car restorers have built vintage cars from nothing but a surviving door handle and good intentions. To leave Tulsa's semicentennial car in its current condition, only to rot further and deteriorate to dust, would be a big shame. I hope the car's winner feels the same as me.
UMM, yea! Just do it!
Can I say that? or is this reserved for shoes?
Yeah, you can say that!
I'm somewhat ambivalent now about restoring the car. As she sits now, THAT's the car we buried. Love her for what she is and represents, not for what she looks like. Now, if some of the sheetmetal is usable, then go for it. The interior - I don't care if a repro kit is used. But if all we can use out of the whole car is some of the chrome, then I say don't do it. I'm curious what that bubbling on the metal is. Paint? or some residual material from the cosmoline? If that's rust from the inside bubbling the metal, then I'm not sure any of that can be saved. Now if the metal is rotted around the edges, that can be fixed. Guys like Boyd can fabricate entire panels, so that can be done. It wouldn't be a practical undertaking at all, and would cost more than the car would be worth; it would have to be a labor of love. But if we can use the bulk of the sheet metal, then we owe it to ourselves to try. Give her a nice long acid bath, and see if she holds together.
Hello again from Germany,
well, the show is over and the unfortunately the Belvedere turned out to be as bad as one could expect after discovering the water.
Thanks to everybody who shared his/her pictures, so I could take part from overseas. Over here you get only little information about the whole thing, some vintage car forums have links to some pages. Using this forum I am as close as i can get from Germany...
I did not see much about the interior, so my question to those of you who saw the car personally: was it comletely rotten inside? What was the smell? Just being curious...
If anyone has pictures from the engine or the interior, please mail them to jof@gmx.li - thanks in advance!
I read in one of the articles that "in 1957 Tulsa's civic leaders hoped to dazzle their future descendants with the scope of their own technological prowess" - well, they failed with that. It looks like the technological prowess (or progress?) was not that what they expected back then (please don't get me wrong - this is my personal point of view).
What I think is remarkable, that everyone was talking about the names and the population-guesses on microfilm. But they found nothing but some postcards when I interpreted the news correctly. How could this happen? Burying a car is so unusual, an the guesses were such an important thing (since the winner had the chance of owning a "brand new car"), so why and how could the false information of microfilms sprread and last for 50 years? This makes me think of other information even longer ago - what's true and what is rumour? I hope they will have some more investigation and find a clue.
A few words to the water issue: over here most of our houses have a concrete or brick built cellar. One of the most important thing is to find the right sealing (waterproofing), so the first thing the architect does is getting an soil expertise with information about the groundwater. If groundwater is to be expected, a waterproof concrete is the first choice and the whole concrete gets a "paintjob" with sealing material (over here they use a black material which looks like tar). And of course the seams (joints?) get a special treatment.
Did anyone of you who personally got to see the shelter notice anything of that? I am just curious...
Again, thank you very much for your help that made me take part of the whole event from far away! Although the result could have been much better, what happened just happened, and nobody can turn time back to make it different.
Therefore I suggest to not restore the car, but leave it as it is and show it at the local museum as a unique part of Tulsa-history, as an effort to preserve something to the next generation, which unfortunately failed - there is nothing wrong with that, it's history now.
It is possible to restore a car around just on nut or bolt - but the result is not the car from back then, but a product of today. This unique time witness would just become another one of a bunch of restored Plymouth in the world.
What there is now is a very unique thing, and I am still excited looking at the pictures of the car back and now.
Again, that is just my personal opinion, and I will watch what is going to happen.
Best regards from Germany
Jörg
quote:
Originally posted by custosnox
I've noticed a lot of you have suggested burying another car. This has already been done. In 1998 a Plymouth Prowler (keeping with the Plymouth theme) was was put in a vault in centinial park downtown. It was not put underground as the Belvedier. Instead, it was placed in an above ground vault, in hopes of keeping some of the problems that have becoming apparent at bay. It was also placed inside a plastic "box" inside the vault, sealed air tight. The plastic box was filled with an inert gas to protect the paint. All oil and fluids were drained and replaced with synthetics that won't breakdown.
This project was done in celebration of Tulsa's 100th birthday. Here's to seeing it coming out in prestine condition in '48
Yes but I'd like to keep that car time capsule going for the TulsaRama event every 50 years. That other car is for another event. I had an idea of using a car like a VW Bug for the time capsule to be opened in 2057, it's small and it'll be easy to build a steel time capsule for it and it should be quite a car in 2057. Maybe use a 8' dia steel pipe and put the car in wraped in 3 layers of cosmoline and seal both ends and weld it up. Plant a sign that reads "Do Not Open Till 2057"[:)]
JOF- it's a sad thing it failed, I hope the city looks into what happened and how long the car sat in the water and if the car was really fully underwater at one time. I'd be intrested in knowing more. I at first figured the water level of about 3' was all the vault had in 50 years, but it really looks to me at one time the car was fully underwater, otherwise why was the roof and glass all ruined? If the water level was no higher than 3' then the top half of the car should of came out good. I can't see what could of happened to that higher water level if the car was fully under water at one time, if it leaked out thru a tiny crack you'd think the new rains would of keep filling the vault back up faster than any small crack could leak out the water. They say the vault bottom looked good and solid no cracks seen, soil tested dry too. it'll be intresting to know how long that car really sat in water was it in water from the late 1950's on up to 2007 or what? The sheetmetal from some close up pictures looks like it's paper thin.[:(]
It is possible to restore the car, but I think cleaned and displayed is better in this case. Byt the time this one was "restored" there wouldn't be much left of what was buried. Some water and a soft brush on the outside will do wonders.
I went to the show on saturday. No matter how bad everything is made to look online and on that thing they called a broadcast, it was great to see the car. It's rusted but not gone. The rest of the show was a very great event.
For anyone wondering about the interior:
(http://dropshots.com/photos/33871/20070616/b_145343.jpg)
This made me chuckle:
(http://dropshots.com/photos/33871/20070616/145648.jpg)
As did this:
(http://dropshots.com/photos/33871/20070616/151511.jpg)
Also, they ran out but there was a booth where they made a "Miss Belvedere" shirt that was like the old airplane nose art that is really cool. They are supposed to have more for sale on Friday.
The Centennial people were selling shirts that say "What was buried is alive again!" which I'm thinking will be on clearance soon.
Did they bury that car with the windows down?
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Did they bury that car with the windows down?
Windows were up. They pulled out the passenger wing window and rolled the passenger front window down.
Summary of my $.02:
-Topic is now most replied to in TN history and up there on the viewing list. Helps prove regardless of the condition, Tulsarama was a success. I bet local media web sites had vastly increased traffic this weekend.
-The car is an historically significant artifact. Regardless of condition, the car has an intangible value which reflects the spirit and optimism of people who lived here 50 years ago. This was far from a bust.
-Restoration? Puh-leaze. The car would be a replica when it was done. This also takes away from it's historical value. As someone who has made a living at restoring antique motor vehicles, IMO, there is nothing to start a restoration with here. Basically what Boyd Coddington was saying. Many different ways to preserve it as-is, don't worry about further deterioration.
-I floated around Breadburner's suggestion of displaying the car in a vault cut-away to more than a few people over the weekend, and hands-down it's a great idea. However, we were surprized to see the vault already filled in when we walked down to the Convention Center for the unveiling Friday night. I guess it would have to be a replica vault unless they wanted to undertake digging it back up and removing it. I figured someone would be interested in figuring out how the vault failed just to answer questions.
-They said the winner will be announced at a press conference at East Tulsa Dodge at noon on Friday the 22nd. I hope the winner will donate it to the Tulsa Historical Society.
-Boyd Coddington sort of made an donkey of himself when he stopped the show to introduce his "crew". No applause. A lot of people in the audience didn't even know who the guy was. Granted, we should get a little more mileage out of this event, should it find its way onto "American Hot Rod".
-It's easy to second guess people's intentions and technology from 50 years ago. My buddy gave me a good chuckle when he said: "The space-age technology in that cover failed, but good ol' boiler makin' technology preserved the contents of that capsule."
Pretty obvious they should have constructed another pressure vessel for the car as well before putting it in the concrete vault.
-It is what it is. Let's make the most of it. Thanks to the organizers for undertaking this event and to all the companies and people who volunteered time and equipment to make this moment happen.
I thought this event was great, I'm an old car nut and like cars of the tail-fin era. The loss of the car hit me like a ball bat in the gut, the car is something that cannot be replaced. If this event saddens many people in 2007, I'd guess the people of 1957 would feel even worse. The gift they left for 2007 was a total loss, many even planners in 1957 worked so hard to be able to make this dream come true. I do favor that we bury another car as a gift for the people in 2057. We need to put that car inside a boiler-like vault welded shut. Tulsa's event made national news on Friday.
I'd like to have a expert come in who knows about cars in water and see if he can tell how long the Plymouth sat in water, that will give a general idea of when the vault started to fill up with water.[:(]
This story makes me very,very sad. I wonder how the people of -57 would feel if they knew? Was it really meant that we only would have to charge the battery, fill the tires and turn the key? Haven´t we found the true spirit of the fifties here? The world has never been so modern since. What would our friends from the past do with her now? She is a beauty and she looks at us with her big sad eyes - what have you done to me? You put me in a rust chamber for 50 years and almost killed me. Please make me shine again...But if she´s restored with 99% new parts it´s not her. I say if the some sheet metal is usable then restore her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Hs2AQwDgA
the retro aspect of this video and the pyramid of cars in the junk yard remind me of this time capsule.
quote:
Originally posted by Chevy
This story makes me very,very sad. I wonder how the people of -57 would feel if they knew? Was it really meant that we only would have to charge the battery, fill the tires and turn the key? Haven´t we found the true spirit of the fifties here? The world has never been so modern since. What would our friends from the past do with her now? She is a beauty and she looks at us with her big sad eyes - what have you done to me? You put me in a rust chamber for 50 years and almost killed me. Please make me shine again...But if she´s restored with 99% new parts it´s not her. I say if the some sheet metal is usable then restore her.
I wonder how thick her sheet metal is, it looks like one can polk a pen right thru the metal, much of the rust no doubt is from the inside out. The people left us a great gift they even left the key in the igntion for the winner to drive off with. The people of '57 worked very hard to give us this gift. it's very sad. If only they sealed the vault better.
I was pondering to myself today at work as to why they had not tried harder to clean the car up a little more to make it a bit more presentable. I mean they did in fact scrape some of that stuff right off the front bumper to reveal some shiny chrome and it would make one wonder, if it were cleaned up a bit more, what would it look like?
I thought about this and came to the conclusion that they probably would clean it up a little bit more, but the fact that the car may belong to the winning guess, the dirtiness of the car could make the car just that much more undesirable. I think the people who are keeping the car right now are thinking, if we don't do anything to it at all, the winners may not want it and we might be able to keep it in a museum (which is where I personally think it belongs).
Just my two cents..
quote:
Originally posted by Chevy
This story makes me very,very sad. I wonder how the people of -57 would feel if they knew? Was it really meant that we only would have to charge the battery, fill the tires and turn the key? Haven´t we found the true spirit of the fifties here? The world has never been so modern since. What would our friends from the past do with her now? She is a beauty and she looks at us with her big sad eyes - what have you done to me? You put me in a rust chamber for 50 years and almost killed me. Please make me shine again...But if she´s restored with 99% new parts it´s not her. I say if the some sheet metal is usable then restore her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GikLg8Rh9Zk&mode=related&search=
I was thinking about the sad outcome of this event, and I have to wonder- Not to say anything ill about the people of 1957,- but what were they thinking about, they could bury a cement box and not have it air tight for 50 years, and still be dry? They should of at least checked or monitored it 1 year latter to see if it's holding and maybe check it in 1960. It's not wise to plant someting in the ground in a box that is not air tight and forget about it. The car would of done better setting outside for 50 years. The city of Tulsa also could of checked on the box now & then to be sure it's holding dry no one did nothing and everyone knew it was not air tight.
(http://www.metroplexmini.org/forum/images/smilies/more/deadbeat.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I was thinking about the sad outcome of this event, and I have to wonder- Not to say anything ill about the people of 1957,- but what were they thinking about, they could bury a cement box and not have it air tight for 50 years, and still be dry? They should of at least checked or monitored it 1 year latter to see if it's holding and maybe check it in 1960. It's not wise to plant someting in the ground in a box that is not air tight and forget about it. The car would of done better setting outside for 50 years. The city of Tulsa also could of checked on the box now & then to be sure it's holding dry no one did nothing and everyone knew it was not air tight.
The point of a time capsule is to NOT look.
Plus, they thought it was air tight.
You are judging 1957 science based on 2007 thinking.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I was thinking about the sad outcome of this event, and I have to wonder- Not to say anything ill about the people of 1957,- but what were they thinking about, they could bury a cement box and not have it air tight for 50 years, and still be dry? They should of at least checked or monitored it 1 year latter to see if it's holding and maybe check it in 1960. It's not wise to plant someting in the ground in a box that is not air tight and forget about it. The car would of done better setting outside for 50 years. The city of Tulsa also could of checked on the box now & then to be sure it's holding dry no one did nothing and everyone knew it was not air tight.
The point of a time capsule is to NOT look.
Plus, they thought it was air tight.
You are judging 1957 science based on 2007 thinking.
How can you have a cement vault sealed with gunnite airtight? They also should of thought of cracks forming in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I was thinking about the sad outcome of this event, and I have to wonder- Not to say anything ill about the people of 1957,- but what were they thinking about, they could bury a cement box and not have it air tight for 50 years, and still be dry? They should of at least checked or monitored it 1 year latter to see if it's holding and maybe check it in 1960. It's not wise to plant someting in the ground in a box that is not air tight and forget about it. The car would of done better setting outside for 50 years. The city of Tulsa also could of checked on the box now & then to be sure it's holding dry no one did nothing and everyone knew it was not air tight.
The point of a time capsule is to NOT look.
Plus, they thought it was air tight.
You are judging 1957 science based on 2007 thinking.
How can you have a cement vault sealed with gunnite airtight? They also should of thought of cracks forming in the future.
That is the same way they built swimming pools that are still in use today. They assumed than anything that can hold water can keep it out. This is before space travel, high altitude aircraft, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I was thinking about the sad outcome of this event, and I have to wonder- Not to say anything ill about the people of 1957,- but what were they thinking about, they could bury a cement box and not have it air tight for 50 years, and still be dry? They should of at least checked or monitored it 1 year latter to see if it's holding and maybe check it in 1960. It's not wise to plant someting in the ground in a box that is not air tight and forget about it. The car would of done better setting outside for 50 years. The city of Tulsa also could of checked on the box now & then to be sure it's holding dry no one did nothing and everyone knew it was not air tight.
The point of a time capsule is to NOT look.
Plus, they thought it was air tight.
You are judging 1957 science based on 2007 thinking.
How can you have a cement vault sealed with gunnite airtight? They also should of thought of cracks forming in the future.
That is the same way they built swimming pools that are still in use today. They assumed than anything that can hold water can keep it out. This is before space travel, high altitude aircraft, etc.
A swimming pool is not built air tight, it's just a tub of water with no top. This vault had a 3-piece lid, they used no gaskets or nothing between the joints, they just placed the 3 lids on top of the vault, the mating surfaces were not flush and true it's just rough cement, and all they did was fill in the joints and seams with gunnite and let it go like that for 50 years. Even a roof on a building needs repairs and maintence now & then. Gunnite drys out and cracks. As for a comment about a time capsule and not peeking inside, all I was talking about is checking for water inside and maintence on the outside, look for signs of failure & cracks. I don't see that as cheating. The end result is we lost out on having a brand new 1957 Plymouth car showroom fresh with only 7 miles on the clock. 1957 is only 50 years ago,it was not the stone age- the small boiler tank vault worked fine 50 years under water, they should of sealed the car in a boiler-like vault too and placed them both in the cement vault if nothing else. Then leaks would not of mattered. JMO 20/20
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
A swimming pool is not built air tight, it's just a tub of water with no top. This vault had a 3-piece lid, they used no gaskets or nothing between the joints, they just placed the 3 lids on top of the vault, the mating surfaces were not flush and true it's just rough cement, and all they did was fill in the joints and seams with gunnite and let it go like that for 50 years. Even a roof on a building needs repairs and maintence now & then. Gunnite drys out and cracks. As for a comment about a time capsule and not peeking inside, all I was talking about is checking for water inside and maintence on the outside, look for signs of failure & cracks. I don't see that as cheating. The end result is we lost out on having a brand new 1957 Plymouth car showroom fresh with only 7 miles on the clock. 1957 is only 50 years ago,it was not the stone age- the small boiler tank vault worked fine 50 years under water, they should of sealed the car in a boiler-like vault too and placed them both in the cement vault if nothing else. Then leaks would not of mattered. JMO 20/20
I'm not arguing with you, just think the builders weren't that smart back then.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
(http://www.metroplexmini.org/forum/images/smilies/more/deadbeat.gif)
Thank you!!!!
FWIW- The Tulsa World reported this morning that Miss Belvedere can be seen at East Tulsa Dodge through this Saturday.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
(http://www.metroplexmini.org/forum/images/smilies/more/deadbeat.gif)
Thank you!!!!
FWIW- The Tulsa World reported this morning that Miss Belvedere can be seen at East Tulsa Dodge through this Saturday.
Winner is being announced there on friday at noon.
I was wondering when someone was going to comment on my excellent use of an animated gif!!
However, they did the best they could so let us not judge them. They gave a gift to the future in a way that tells us a lot about their thinking. I admire their optimism and faith in technology. This was before all modern chemical scandals, nuclear accidents etc. Anyway, like all gifts, it's the intention that counts. Although I feel sad about the car, I think it´s a fantastic happening that I can follow from the other side of the globe. What if they knew back then about internet and how this unveling has been followed all over the world. Sure they put Tulsa on the map.
Hello again from Germany,
this forum is about the closest I can get to Tulsa and the Plymouth story from over here.
I bet there is some investigation running what went wrong or if and how the failure could have been prevented. The local press should have an article every day for the next days...
Since I am pretty much interested in that stuff, can you provide me with the links to that local press or information board(s)? You can also e-mail me personally at jof@gmx.li
My opinion to the comments above: from what I read in other articles back in 1957 they tried to do their best - I do not know what "gunnite" (for the seals) is and how groundwater-safe cellars were built back then, but to me everything seems all right thinking in terms of 1957.
Of course we think we are smarter today, but are we really? Today is today, and when we look back at what we are doing today in 30 years, we will definitely find a lot of things that we should have done differently (I could give a few examples, but I do not want to become political in this forum).
I think they did a good job back then. When you think about the publicity they gave to 2007-Tulsa back then, if you try to put this into "monetary thoughts" it will be worth a lot more than a 1957 Plymouth in showroom condition. My opinion!
Again my question, if you took any pictures of the engine or the interior at the show, please e-mail them to me.
Best regards
Jörg
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
I was wondering when someone was going to comment on my excellent use of an animated gif!!
TM, you always have the best animations. The little pizza emoticon was pretty cute. I need to book mark the one you just used, it would come in handy in the political snake pit every now and then. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Chevy
However, they did the best they could so let us not judge them. They gave a gift to the future in a way that tells us a lot about their thinking. I admire their optimism and faith in technology. This was before all modern chemical scandals, nuclear accidents etc. Anyway, like all gifts, it's the intention that counts. Although I feel sad about the car, I think it´s a fantastic happening that I can follow from the other side of the globe. What if they knew back then about internet and how this unveling has been followed all over the world. Sure they put Tulsa on the map.
It was exciting Chevy. There are no other buried cars around the USA I understand (aside from Tulsa's 1998 Prowler car). We made the news all over the globe and on all 3 networks. The next car buried in the time capsule in October, 2007 should be an example of a common run of the mill car used on the roads of Tulsa today in 2007. That's how the Plymouth was picked in 1957. TulsaRama![:)]
quote:
Originally posted by jof
I bet there is some investigation running what went wrong or if and how the failure could have been prevented. The local press should have an article every day for the next days...
Considering the vault was filled in within a few hours of lifting the car and capsule out, I would say there's no on-going investigation. That would have required keeping equipment there a few more days and security to keep people out of the vault.
I believe it's one of those things that you look at it and say: "Lesson learned, don't bury a car in a swimming pool. Swimming pools are designed to hold water, not cars." [;)]
Honestly, probably small fissures in the concrete or an osmotic effect of water trying to find a dry place to seep into. When it was a rainy year, it leeched into the vault. In times of drought, it leeched back out.
I don't believe anyone will ever have a firm answer. Cracks and/or osmosis get my vote.
quote:
Originally posted by jof
Hello again from Germany,
this forum is about the closest I can get to Tulsa and the Plymouth story from over here.
I bet there is some investigation running what went wrong or if and how the failure could have been prevented. The local press should have an article every day for the next days...
Since I am pretty much interested in that stuff, can you provide me with the links to that local press or information board(s)? You can also e-mail me personally at jof@gmx.li
My opinion to the comments above: from what I read in other articles back in 1957 they tried to do their best - I do not know what "gunnite" (for the seals) is and how groundwater-safe cellars were built back then, but to me everything seems all right thinking in terms of 1957.
Of course we think we are smarter today, but are we really? Today is today, and when we look back at what we are doing today in 30 years, we will definitely find a lot of things that we should have done differently (I could give a few examples, but I do not want to become political in this forum).
I think they did a good job back then. When you think about the publicity they gave to 2007-Tulsa back then, if you try to put this into "monetary thoughts" it will be worth a lot more than a 1957 Plymouth in showroom condition. My opinion!
Again my question, if you took any pictures of the engine or the interior at the show, please e-mail them to me.
Best regards
Jörg
They had some pictures of the inside of the car and engine area posted on this web site but they took the pictures down or the link is not working. The inside of the car is very bad, the dashboard is a total loss, the engine area is bad. You can still see the horn ring which I understand was a classic part of the '57 Plymouth, it has a oval type shape. This web site is about the closest I can get to the Tulsa car too, I live in Columbus, Ohio and was very excited about TulsaRama. On June 15th, 2007 the Plymouth was all I could think about and talk about, people in Ohio must of thought I was nuts. The Plymouth did make the 2nd page of our Columbus Dispatch newspaper on Saturday morn. I was telling everyone at work about TulsaRama so much so that they told me I should move to Tulsa if I like Tulsa so much and that's not a bad idea.[:)]
Friday the 22nd is the big day gang, That's the day they pick the winner of the Plymouth. Who will it be? what is the closest number to 382,757 (or whatever it is). If the winner is not found I heard they will just hold the car for a period of time. if the winner turns it down will the car go to next closest number? I don't know.[B)]
The car is held for five years. Then, if unclaimed, it can be given to someone else like the Tulsa historical society.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
I was wondering when someone was going to comment on my excellent use of an animated gif!!
[}:)]
(http://i15.tinypic.com/4l980b4.gif)
Winner to be announced today at noon at East Tulsa Dodge.
I'm going to go out there. Tell whoever wins to keep the cash and donate the car.
It's 12:36 PM eastern time so it can't be too much longer. That's 11:36 AM central time.... I'd love to look that car over and put it up on a lift and check out the bottom and see exactly what happened in 50 years. I'd also would like to take the cylinder heads off and see if anything is growing in the cylinders. It's still a very intesting car. The car can also be parted out, some of the parts may be still OK or just need a serious clean up like the brake drums, mirrors, window glass, rear axle and driveshaft and the like. They can be used by Plymouth re-buliders or people who own '57 Plymouths.
Thy just announced that the winner is a person in Ohio that goes by the name of Sauerkraut.
Way to go Buddy! Will you be driving this beauty back to Ohio? [}:)]
The winner announced today on the Ch. 6 noon TV news was R.E. Humbertson, with a winning guess of 384,743. (I may have the name spelling wrong as they did not show the name on the TV screen.) Complete list of entries is supposed to be in the Tulsa World tomorrow and on the www.buriedcar.com website. I was suprised they only found about 850 contest entries out of entire 1957 Tulsa population of around 260,000, but that is the best that has survived.
Hey sauerkraut, you live in Ohio. My maternal grandmother's family was from Ohio; I think I still have distant relatives in the Warren area that I have not seen for years & years. I visited Columbus once on business, about 20 years ago, and the topography and feel of the city reminded me very much of Tulsa. My grandma claimed to be born in a mining town called Mudsock, OH. She was born in 1895; I think Mudsock was in the Nelsonville area.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
The winner announced today on the Ch. 6 noon TV news was R.E. Humbertson, with a winning guess of 384,743. (I may have the name spelling wrong as they did not show the name on the TV screen.) Complete list of entries is supposed to be in the Tulsa World tomorrow and on the www.buriedcar.com website. I was suprised they only found about 850 contest entries out of entire 1957 Tulsa population of around 260,000, but that is the best that has survived.
Hey sauerkraut, you live in Ohio. My maternal grandmother's family was from Ohio; I think I still have distant relatives in the Warren area that I have not seen for years & years. I visited Columbus once on business, about 20 years ago, and the topography and feel of the city reminded me very much of Tulsa. My grandma claimed to be born in a mining town called Mudsock, OH. She was born in 1895; I think Mudsock was in the Nelsonville area.
Yes, but I was born in Michigan, I'm a huge Michigan Wolverine fan, I moved to Dallas, Texas in 1980 and moved up to Ohio in 1991 from Texas. I did live in Tulsa for about 6 months in late 1979 before going on to Texas.[:)]
It'll be intresting to look at the list of names and their guess. I am also surprised they found only 850 names, maybe they have more names on the micro-film that they can't find, or was in glove box and decayed away into that big blob they found in the glove box... That was a strange thing-- everyone said for 50 years the roll of micro-film buried with the car has the names then they find all the names on paper and no micro-film at all, did they make a last minute change in 1957 before they buried the car or what?[B)]
There was a film can removed from the back seat last Friday night. There was a gaping hole in the can and nothing was found in it, at least not on stage. From where we were sitting it was hard to gauge the thickness of the film can, not sure if it was an historical film or that was what they put the micro film in. My idea of microfilm has always been a 35 or 70mm format. Not saying that's correct or not, just my idea.
The film canister in the car was blank when developed.
There may have only been 850 names. Pay attention to the wording for one, it says to the person with the best guess or HIS heir. Likely this was a thing where a single family member would enter.
My guess is the supposed film was just duplicates of the paper copies found in the capsule. Had it in two places. Also possible there never was any microfilm version.
In retrospect, I think a microfilm of the contest entries was just rumor or urban legend, and never existed. I find it very hard to believe that if a microfilm was produced, that it was not put in the sealed time capsule along with the other items that survived quite nicely.
The way I understand it, Tulsa's buried Plymouth was a publicity stunt, dreamed up by Chrysler PR men and Tulsa Chrysler dealers, and not part of the official city-sanctioned semicentennial activities. Entry into the contest had to be by mail-in postcard or by some sign-up sheets provided at some local businesses. I initially thought that many original entries may have been lost, but what they found in the time capsule may very well be the only contest entries. In any case, it is the best we have to go on today.
The newspaper stories and articles that the Tulsa World re-published from 1957, did mention micro-film and article said something to the effect of they were taking names/guesses and going down to have them put on micro-film. They mentioned the cut-off date for the names & guess so they can be sure to get everyone's name on micro-film. They stoped taking names/guesses a few days before the car was buried. I'm not sure on the exact date cut-off because I don't have that article with me now. For 50 years there was talk aabout micro-film and now to not be able to find it is strange. They would of put the micro-film in a place where they would know the people of 2007 would be able to find it easy, they would not hide it. I do recall an article that said a "blob" was found in the glove box that they think was the contents of a Ladies 1957 hand purse, part of that "blob" may have been the micro-film.. This is strange. Nothing like a good mystery to kept the Tulsarama excitement going.[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
In retrospect, I think a microfilm of the contest entries was just rumor or urban legend, and never existed. I find it very hard to believe that if a microfilm was produced, that it was not put in the sealed time capsule along with the other items that survived quite nicely.
The way I understand it, Tulsa's buried Plymouth was a publicity stunt, dreamed up by Chrysler PR men and Tulsa Chrysler dealers, and not part of the official city-sanctioned semicentennial activities. Entry into the contest had to be by mail-in postcard or by some sign-up sheets provided at some local businesses. I initially thought that many original entries may have been lost, but what they found in the time capsule may very well be the only contest entries. In any case, it is the best we have to go on today.
That's right and one of main businesses to take the forms was some bank or credit union/savings or loan place. The name escapes me now. Not too many places were taking the forms. I'm not sure about the mail-in post cards. They did have a cut-off time though according to the article in the Tulsa World.
For the relatively small crowd that they say was at the entombment, there might not have been as much wide-spread interest in the car 50 years ago as there is now.
If that person is still alive I can hear it now:
"Wow! I finally won something! Yes!"
"Oh, uh that's my prize, y'all just keep it."
I bet a box of Krispy Kremes the car winds up in the posession of the historical society, either by not being able to find an heir or it's given back by a good-natured heir.
They also get the savings account.
I hope they would keep the money, donate the car.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
For the relatively small crowd that they say was at the entombment, there might not have been as much wide-spread interest in the car 50 years ago as there is now.
That is my feeling too Conan71, I don't think that the general population of Tulsa in 1957 was really aware of the car contest/burial. I think the 850 entries or so they recovered from the time capsule was probably the extent of the true contest entries. Now if R.E. Humbertson or his heirs will come forward...I am still curious to see the published list of the entries to scan for long-forgotten names or the names of my parents.
KOTV-6 has a file you can download with all the entries submitted, complete with names, birth dates and guesses.
Some of the guesses are, I hope, rather ridiculous. One 15-year old kid guessed 222 billion +. A couple people guessed 1 billion +. Did people really think one sixth of the world's population would be living in little ole Tulsa?
Say, can you tell me where on the KOTV site to find that list. Their website is filled with all sorts of links but nothing seems to make sense to me as far as finding that list.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
They also get the savings account.
I hope they would keep the money, donate the car.
From the wording of the thing, they go together you have to take the car to get the money. The rest of the stuff in the capsule will go to the historical people.. I also am looking for the list and cannot find it on the channel 6 site.
As for the micro film, I would think if they found the paper names in the little time capsule, they must of put the micro-film list in the car as a back up. They must have did it both ways for us, in case one failed we'd have another back-up... They would not hide the micro-film. The only thing I can see is that the micro-film was ruined in the water or desolved like that plastic sheet did and ladies handbag and other things left in the car. I don't believe the micro-film was a rumor for 50 years.
Raymond E. Humbertson of Virginia died in 1979, he had no children and his wife died in 1988. He has two elderly surviving sisters. The Tulsa World has an article about him that includes an interview with his nephew in today's edition.
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2007/2.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070623_238_A1_spanc67588
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
They also get the savings account.
I hope they would keep the money, donate the car.
From the wording of the thing, they go together you have to take the car to get the money. The rest of the stuff in the capsule will go to the historical people.. I also am looking for the list and cannot find it on the channel 6 site.
Yeah, you take both and immediately donate the car. Doesn't say you have to put it in your driveway before you give it away.
The TulsaWorld online edition pictures are small but in the print version you can almost see me in the background of the wide picture.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
They also get the savings account.
I hope they would keep the money, donate the car.
From the wording of the thing, they go together you have to take the car to get the money. The rest of the stuff in the capsule will go to the historical people.. I also am looking for the list and cannot find it on the channel 6 site.
Yeah, you take both and immediately donate the car. Doesn't say you have to put it in your driveway before you give it away.
The TulsaWorld online edition pictures are small but in the print version you can almost see me in the background of the wide picture.
It might not be so easy to donate that car. With the current shape it's in many people may not want it. The cash winnings will be eaten up in storage fees and charges for towing the car. I don't know how the city of Tulsa will work out this thing with the winners. The winners live in another state. Maybe they can keep & store the car in Tulsa till they can find someone who wants the car. The dirt is always in the details. They would not want to spend more money than what they won.
Somebody just trades them a pickup truck and everything will be easy.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
They also get the savings account.
I hope they would keep the money, donate the car.
From the wording of the thing, they go together you have to take the car to get the money. The rest of the stuff in the capsule will go to the historical people.. I also am looking for the list and cannot find it on the channel 6 site.
You can download the list in an Excel spreadsheet file from www.tulsaworld.com/buriedcar
Click on the "Miss Belvedere, you have a winner" article on the left side of the page. When the article pops up, there is a link at the beginning to download the complete contest winner list. It is an Excel spreadsheet with 4 sheet tabs giving info, statistics, etc. It is also easy to resort the data in alphabetical order to scan the list for familiar names.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Somebody just trades them a pickup truck and everything will be easy.
The hard part is finding that "Somebody" to make the trade... BTW, I hear they may bury a Dodge Pick-up Truck in the new time capsule, or at least it was mentioned. That's not a bad idea the truck has a well-like design and is very popular. It should be quite a site to have it brand new in 2057[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Somebody just trades them a pickup truck and everything will be easy.
The hard part is finding that "Somebody" to make the trade... BTW, I hear they may bury a Dodge Pick-up Truck in the new time capsule, or at least it was mentioned. That's not a bad idea the truck has a well-like design and is very popular. It should be quite a site to have it brand new in 2057[:)]
Pickups are extremely popular in this area and since the other two vehicles have been Chrysler, then a Dodge would make sense.
I'd favor them putting any car in a time capsule. The only reason they picked a Plymouth in 1957 was because they thought it was a typical car of the time.
I wouldn't put a truck in it. If they're sticking with Mopars, I would put a Chrysler 300 or Dodge Charger in it. But not a grey or silver one, hopefully that trend will be over by then.
quote:
Originally posted by jiminy
I wouldn't put a truck in it. If they're sticking with Mopars, I would put a Chrysler 300 or Dodge Charger in it. But not a grey or silver one, hopefully that trend will be over by then.
If a truck is one of the most popular vehicles on the road in 2007 then it would seem we should put a truck in the vault. They figured the '57 Plymouth to be the most common and run-of-the mill cars in '57 so that is why it was picked for the time capsule. But like I said I'd be happy with any vehicle in the time capsule. It will cause alot of excitement for the people of 2057 just like it did to us in 2007. TulsaRama 2057!
I was searching the internet for some downtown Tulsa info, and came across this story about travelling to Tulsa for the Belvedere Dig. I thought it was interesting to get an outsider's perspective of downtown Tulsa and the Belvedere rust-fest. Authentic and well-written, with lots of pictures of downtown landmarks. http://www.wichitavortex.com/tulsa/
Restoration seems to be doing a lot better than I imagined:
http://www.bartlesvillelive.com/content/news/local/story/Tulsas-Miss-Belvedere-more-exclusive-before-and/0-nyljmQyEy0IGPm7LYtIA.cspx
What can I say but WOW!! They seem to be doing a good job of preserving her. I hope that they have continued success in this project. Thanks for the update.
That's not bad, I didn't think they were even going to try to fix it up. I thought the owner/car winner who lived on the east coast did not have plans to fix it up. It still has alot of damage.. That's one heck of a tuff job to restore. I wonder how long it sat in the water, or at what point in time the vault started to fill up with water. I doubt it sat in the water the full 50 years and the vault would of filled up slowly thru the years.. If they had a drain in the vault with a one way valve the car may not of been in such poor shape when it was dug up. I wish them well. I'm surprised they think the engine may fire up and the tranny may move, the tranny would of been full of oil. :-X
Quote from: sauerkraut on June 16, 2009, 03:11:11 PM
I'm surprised they think the engine may fire up and the tranny may move, the tranny would of been full of oil.
RuPaul can move just fine, thank you...
(http://seanie22.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/ru-paul1.jpg)
I'll take a bong hit with FOTD if they ever get that old heap fired up. Ain't gonna happen.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 16, 2009, 04:11:11 PM
I'll take a bong hit with FOTD if they ever get that old heap fired up. Ain't gonna happen.
I agree, But the article said there was a 75% chance the engine would fire, I can't see how, all that iron would be solid rust inside the cyclinders. I don't know if they were talking about taking the engine apart & cleaning it up and then putting it back together and then firing it up or what. I don't know if the car was buried with oil in the oil pan or not. (The cleaned up picture of the dashboard really looked nice, classic '57). There would be alot of other stuff to such as the coil & distributor, the spark plug tips are likely rusted away, so it would need new plugs, coil & distributor and the like to even get fire. The starter would have to be rebuilt too. I would like to be there and see the car in person.
Think we should let them know?
Myanmar Spitfire Recovery: Water-Filled Crate Believed To Contain WWII-Era Planehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/09/myanmar-spitfire-recovery-water-filled-crate_n_2439276.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/09/myanmar-spitfire-recovery-water-filled-crate_n_2439276.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003)
QuoteYANGON, Myanmar -- An excavation team searching for a stash of legendary World War II-era British fighter aircraft in northern Myanmar said Wednesday it had found a wooden crate believed to contain one of the planes, but it was full of muddy water.
It was not immediately clear how much damage the water may have caused, and searchers could not definitively say what was inside the crate.
But British aviation enthusiast David J. Cundall, who is driving the hunt for the rare Spitfire planes, called the results "very encouraging."
"It will take some time to pump the water out ... but I do expect all aircraft to be in very good condition," Cundall told reporters in Myanmar's main city, Yangon.
Quote from: Townsend on January 09, 2013, 09:54:33 AM
Think we should let them know?
Myanmar Spitfire Recovery: Water-Filled Crate Believed To Contain WWII-Era Plane
Nah, let them dream for a while.
Myanmar. It'll always be Burma to me ~ Jay Peterman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAlinvw2Rb0