(http://www.applepics.com/11/blandbridenstine/123/rally1.jpg)
KOTV - 5/5/2007 4:17 PM - Updated 5/5/2007 9:54 PM
Both sides of the immigration debate took to the streets in Tulsa Saturday. Hispanics celebrating Cinco de Mayo came out to protest a strict immigration bill. Meanwhile, Oklahoma Minutemen rallied in support of the stricter laws. The News On 6's Joshua Brakhage reports both sides agree U.S. immigration policy is in desperate need of reform. The disagreement comes when you ask, how?
STORY-----> http://tinyurl.com/ys7lmd
Isn't it odd that this story hasn't received widespread coverage?
http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/base/news/1178097526131870.xml&coll=1&thispage=1
"Five members of a self-styled militia were denied bail Tuesday after a federal agent testified they planned a machine gun attack on Mexicans, but a judge approved bail for a sixth man."
"Craig said it concerned him and his wife that agents found explosives at his place and that it was booby trapped..."I hope (agents) don't get blowed up looking for that cave," he said."
...so maybe these guys were al-Qaeda in Alabama?
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
(http://www.applepics.com/11/blandbridenstine/123/rally1.jpg)
That is a laugh.If you are in this country illegally you are already a criminal,which is why people who violate our immigration laws are called "illegal aliens","illegals" or "illegal immigrants"`.If you are aiding a criminal you are a criminal too.I am so sick and tired of illegal aliens and pro-illegals groups masquerading as immigrant rights groups or Hispanic rights group and the media allowing these distortions of the truth by reporting these groups falsely as pro-immigrant or or Hispanic rights group.
Do we try to call drug dealers on the street selling illegal drugs "unlicensed street pharmacist who sell non-conventional medication" instead of drug dealers on the street selling illegal drugs,do we call speeders "time conscience drivers" instead of speeders,do we call call child molesters and rapist the "sexually confused"?Hell no,we call these people what the hell they are.The same thing should apply to the pro-illegals groups falsely misrepresenting themselves as immigrant rights or Hispanic rights groups.
Noticed this had an interesting take on latinos and immigrants, even illegal ones.
http://money.cnn.com/popups/2005/biz2/megapol/frameset.exclude.html
Specifically, check out; (I-85 Corridor) (Great Lakes Horseshoe) (I-35 corridor) (Gulf Coast Belt) (Southland)
Two of the things I have noticed in a lot of rankings, "hottest job market" "best place to grow or start a company" "booming economy" etc. is place is in or near a large college town, has large educated work force and lots of immigrants.
Perhaps instead of trying to get illegals to leave we should figure out a way to make them legal, get more of them here and educate them. Perhaps if they had to pay a fine or penalty for not going through the original legalization process, we could set up a fund to help pay for some of that, providing they went to college here. Or, temporary or work visa as long as your going to school, then when you get your associates or bachelors, your a citizen.
If they are here illegaly and want to stay here, lets figure out a way to take advantage of that.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Noticed this had an interesting take on latinos and immigrants, even illegal ones.
http://money.cnn.com/popups/2005/biz2/megapol/frameset.exclude.html
Specifically, check out; (I-85 Corridor) (Great Lakes Horseshoe) (I-35 corridor) (Gulf Coast Belt) (Southland)
Two of the things I have noticed in a lot of rankings, "hottest job market" "best place to grow or start a company" "booming economy" etc. is place is in or near a large college town, has large educated work force and lots of immigrants.
Perhaps instead of trying to get illegals to leave we should figure out a way to make them legal, get more of them here and educate them. Perhaps if they had to pay a fine or penalty for not going through the original legalization process, we could set up a fund to help pay for some of that, providing they went to college here. Or, temporary or work visa as long as your going to school, then when you get your associates or bachelors, your a citizen.
If they are here illegaly and want to stay here, lets figure out a way to take advantage of that.
They break the law, and if they cannot pay the fine you want to "set up a fund" to pay for that? Just who pays for this "fund?" And let's just get them in here and educate them? So long as they're going to school and get their bachelors, they are citizens? And who is going to pay for the college tuition and board for these people that can't afford to pay a fine for coming here illegally? I can't understand the logic to your post Artist.
I think Artist is not being an apologist for illegal immigrants. Instead, he is looking at a pragmatic way of dealing with this problem.
Stop with the demands for deportation. It's not going to happen because the current president and the viable candidates who would replace him won't do it. And for good reason -- uprooting 12 million people would be akin to Nazi Germany and the Jews.
And if you're wondering where the money's going to come from, I say stop throwing money down a rathole in Iraq and reallocate the money to domestic concerns such as tightening the border and a citizenship program so that everyone benefits.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Noticed this had an interesting take on latinos and immigrants, even illegal ones.
http://money.cnn.com/popups/2005/biz2/megapol/frameset.exclude.html
Specifically, check out; (I-85 Corridor) (Great Lakes Horseshoe) (I-35 corridor) (Gulf Coast Belt) (Southland)
Two of the things I have noticed in a lot of rankings, "hottest job market" "best place to grow or start a company" "booming economy" etc. is place is in or near a large college town, has large educated work force and lots of immigrants.
Perhaps instead of trying to get illegals to leave we should figure out a way to make them legal, get more of them here and educate them. Perhaps if they had to pay a fine or penalty for not going through the original legalization process, we could set up a fund to help pay for some of that, providing they went to college here. Or, temporary or work visa as long as your going to school, then when you get your associates or bachelors, your a citizen.
If they are here illegaly and want to stay here, lets figure out a way to take advantage of that.
They break the law, and if they cannot pay the fine you want to "set up a fund" to pay for that? Just who pays for this "fund?" And let's just get them in here and educate them? So long as they're going to school and get their bachelors, they are citizens? And who is going to pay for the college tuition and board for these people that can't afford to pay a fine for coming here illegally? I can't understand the logic to your post Artist.
You do make a good point, but I am not sure how the fine that is already proposed will work. My assumption is that they have to go back to their country of origin and or pay the fine all at once.
IF they wanted to stay here, with one of my ideas they could work off that fine as long as they were going to school. In that instance I would suppose it would be helpful if they were able to finance it and get some assistance paying for it that way, while that person was going to college. If they were working and paying for their college that would be a benefit to our society and to themselves over the long haul more than just paying off the fine and not going to college. That could be an option the hispanic community could pay into to help and other donors.
The other variation of that option could be; instead of a fine, they went to college, not saying the taxpayers have to pay for it, they either work and or find help to pay for it. As long as they were going to college and making decent grades the fine would be waved. Once they attain a certain degree then they could be citizens. Perhaps you could then say that they pay the fine after they get their degree.
I am sure either would not be easy for many of them to do. But would give them possible options that could in the end benefit the city more so than other options I have heard.
The choices could be...
Get caught, you go back no return.
Get caught, you go back, apply for temporary workers permit, and pay a fine.
Get caught, or apply to pay off the fine while here as long as you are going to school.
Get caught, or apply to go to school, finding a way to pay for it, the fee is waived if you attain a degree and you attain citizenship as well.
Was just trying to do the ol "turn lemons into lemonade" "turn adversity into opportunity" thing with some possible ideas to contemplate.
If the hispanic community and others really didn't want families to be split up or lose a family member. They would have to step up to the plate and make sure it was possible to create ways for that family member or person to stay, and go to college. It would be no free lunch but they could take it or leave it, for it would be a very generous option to offer them and an enlightened example as well.
Personal comments removed
the illegals are trying to set a dangerous precendent. The latest prevailing excuse is "we all pay taxes, so we should be able to stay here"
Maybe that works in Mexico, but paying taxes is NOT the only requirement for residency here, contrary to popular belief. This kind of comment cannot be allowed to stand. If you ever hear an illegal say this, you need to set them straight. They are trying to appeal to the greed factor. Sorry illegals, we know you are employed by greedy employers who take advantage of you and engage in anti competitive behavior, but 1804 is going to take care of them. Start packing your bags.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
Personal comments removed
the illegals are trying to set a dangerous precendent. The latest prevailing excuse is "we all pay taxes, so we should be able to stay here"
Maybe that works in Mexico, but paying taxes is NOT the only requirement for residency here, contrary to popular belief. This kind of comment cannot be allowed to stand. If you ever hear an illegal say this, you need to set them straight. They are trying to appeal to the greed factor. Sorry illegals, we know you are employed by greedy employers who take advantage of you and engage in anti competitive behavior, but 1804 is going to take care of them. Start packing your bags.
Good for Oklahoma. Hopefully this will start a precedent nationwide to stop this garbage and the idiotic talk that nothing that can be done. There are cities in the metroplex that are trying to pass similar measures, but the bleeding hearts have deep pockets and love to use the court system to try and force their viewpoints on the citizens who want to enforce the laws. Of course, since they want to enforce the laws they are all called racists and hatemongers, the typical strategy of illegals and those who back them.
TFiT - uprooting millions of people and shipping them across a border is akin to what was forced upon the Jewish people.
The analogy stops at the train station, though.
You and I must travel in different circles.
I've heard many such conversations from Dallas to Austin and El Paso to Tucson in the last few months. Particularly Austin. But just like this thread, the subject gets heated, people start throwing stones, and then you wind up in a Mexican Standoff.
Any workable solution is going to come from a compromise that neither side likes but is willing to suffer through.
But your right about there being something in our water. And something besides duck poo at that.
I hate having to press 1 for English but it's better then having to press 3.
jdb
Hogwash, what a crock! If families are split up, it is due to the consequences of the criminal activity of the illegal aliens, themselves. Besides, if an illegal alien is deported, they are free to take their children back to their countries of origin with them. Illegal aliens choose to split up their families, nobody else makes that decision for them. They made that decision for themselves and their families when they chose a fugitive lifestyle by violating the immigration laws of the United States. No government makes that decision for them. Get real.
It's real simple folks, end the illegal job market, housing market, infrastructure, and government benefits that enable illegal aliens and they will self deport at very little expense to taxpayers. That's all that HB 1804 does, despite the emotional, irrational, squawking of its opponents. That's why I, as a good Democrat, support it. Governor Henry should, too.
BTW, comparing HB 1804 or its supporters to Nazis is intellectually dishonest and I think it is offensive to the Jewish community. HB 1804 is not the holocaust. Furthermore, comparing the opponents of HB 1804 marching in these parades to marchers in Selma is just as intellectually dishonest and is an insult to African Americans and the Civil Rights Movement. They are not Harriet Tubman and illegal immigration is no underground railroad, either.
It is appalling that groups like the UnAmerican Scam Coalition or the Coalition for Crime of Hispanic Organizations are fraudulently deified and given some semblance of legitimacy by making such false comparisons. These groups engage in race and faith baiting to appeal to emotion instead of intellect or fiction instead of fact, to avoid an objective, honest debate. They ignore the role that illegal immigration has played in bringing a level of lawlessness to the streets of Oklahoma that has not been seen since pre statehood. They deny study after study of cost analysis that soundly demonstrates any "benefits" of illegal immigration are clearly outweighed by the costs. The fact is, that wages, benefits and workplace safety in the so called "jobs that Americans won't do" have been on a steady decline that is attributable and directly correlates to the growth of illegal immigration. These negative impacts exploit and undermine the stability of all working families in Oklahoma, including those here illegally. These groups give the "global warming is a hoax" conspiracy theorists a run for their money in the ridiculousness of their rhetoric.
The fact that these "Hispanic or Immigrant Advocacy" groups never seem to stand up for anything besides illegal immigration and against anyone who opposes it is a deeply disappointing disservice to legal immigrants and Hispanic Americans. Where was the outrage from these "immigrant advocates" about the virtual slave labor conditions of legal immigrants at the John Pickle Co? Why no outrage from these "Hispanic groups" about the recent Gonzalezgate political firing of U.S. District Attorney David Iglesias? The recent murder of Farm Labor Union organizer Santiago Raphael Cruz in Monterrey, Mexico? The recent gruesome death of Eleazar Torres-Gomez at Cintas right here in Tulsa due to oppressive and unsafe working conditions, or the disgusting miscarriage of justice on border patrol agents Ramos and Compean, all Hispanics?
Perhaps the answer can be found in the livelihoods of the leadership of the groups, whose ill gotten profits in many cases directly rely on illegal alien populations to exploit for cheap disposable labor, tithes, translation services, prey for predatory businesses, etc. It's just another example of the lack of credible integrity in their cause and exposes just how morally bankrupt it really is.
I salute anyone who questions or expresses their objections to amnesty, open borders, guest worker programs and the greedy, effete, elitism that fuels this predatory, laissez faire, feudalistic, black market economy. To demand respect and consequences for the rule of law and to stand in firm opposition to this aggressive attack on the sovereignty, security, welfare, and democracy of our country does not make anyone a racist, or xenophobe as the distopian, fascist, purveyors of open borders and amnesty so reliably falsely accuse. Pride, patriotism, and respect for the rule law to uphold and defend the Constitution from attacks by our enemies both foreign and domestic is not racism, xenophobia, or neo nazism. It is the foundation of the United States, to suggest otherwise is contemptuous and truly UnAmerican.
Don't speak for me! (//%22http://www.dontspeakforme.org/%22)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/TYProle/cfaw_printad_5.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Hogwash, what a crock! If families are split up, it is due to the consequences of the criminal activity of the illegal aliens, themselves. Besides, if an illegal alien is deported, they are free to take their children back to their countries of origin with them. Illegal aliens choose to split up their families, nobody else makes that decision for them. They made that decision for themselves and their families when they chose a fugitive lifestyle by violating the immigration laws of the United States. No government makes that decision for them. Get real.
It's real simple folks, end the illegal job market, housing market, infrastructure, and government benefits that enable illegal aliens and they will self deport at very little expense to taxpayers. That's all that HB 1804 does, despite the emotional, irrational, squawking of its opponents. That's why I, as a good Democrat, support it. Governor Henry should, too.
Brad Henry is not a good democrat,from what I understand he is one of the pro-illegals who decided to give illegals tax payer funded tuition to illegals.
quote:
BTW, comparing HB 1804 or its supporters to Nazis is intellectually dishonest and I think it is offensive to the Jewish community. HB 1804 is not the holocaust. Furthermore, comparing the opponents of HB 1804 marching in these parades to marchers in Selma is just as intellectually dishonest and is an insult to African Americans and the Civil Rights Movement. They are not Harriet Tubman and illegal immigration is no underground railroad, either.
Other than the false accusations of racism and xenophobia,the other clue that pro-illegals are dishonest is what they try to call illegal aliens.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Stop with the demands for deportation. It's not going to happen because the current president and the viable candidates who would replace him won't do it. And for good reason -- uprooting 12 million people would be akin to Nazi Germany and the Jews.
Why are you comparing criminals to the Jews in Nazi Germany?And since when was deporting people who are not citizens of this country and do not have a right to be here akin to Nazi Germany?
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
TFiT - uprooting millions of people and shipping them across a border is akin to what was forced upon the Jewish people.
The analogy stops at the train station, though.
You and I must travel in different circles.
I've heard many such conversations from Dallas to Austin and El Paso to Tucson in the last few months. Particularly Austin. But just like this thread, the subject gets heated, people start throwing stones, and then you wind up in a Mexican Standoff.
Any workable solution is going to come from a compromise that neither side likes but is willing to suffer through.
But your right about there being something in our water. And something besides duck poo at that.
I hate having to press 1 for English but it's better then having to press 3.
jdb
WRONG.. WRONG...WRONG.. These arguments that the ILLEGAL ALIENS are akin to the Jews of Nazi Germany just go to show how desperate you are to create any kind of diversion away from the REAL issue. How is the horror of the holocaust akin to deporting people that came into this country illegally? That is a slap in the face to all of those that suffered from the holocaust and you should be ashamed, literally ashamed of yourself for even bringing that up.
You don't compromise with law breakers, you put them in jail or send them back to where they came from, whether that be through attrition by taking away the carrot of jobs, anchor babies, and benefits, and/or by deportation over time. The problem will take time to resolve, but waving the white flag and saying "we surrender" will only make the problem worse in coming decades because it will encourage only more and more of the same over time. Anyone that doesn't recognize that needs to understand basic human psychology.
Citizenship in this country is something that needs to be EARNED by those that wish to come here, not given away to those who deceive and and commit criminal acts.
What do you say to all of those trying to go through legal means to get here? I can hear it now "Hey, that's life, and life ain't fair. Deal with it." Illegal sympathizers want two things:
CHEAP LABOR
VOTES
There is an agenda here having to do with money, and power. Anyone that cannot see that is part of that agenda, therefore, part of the problem.
If you illegal alien sympathizers really want to help a desperate people, why not go down to Mexico and other countries in Latin America and protest the treatment these people receive at the hands of their own corrupt governments? Do something that will REALLY impact the lives of these people so they don't come here illegally and become second class citizens, providing you with the cheap vegetables and labor, which is what you really want.
And for all of you defending making citizens out of these criminals (or even worse, giving them degrees and them making them citizens), what do you do about the border and the continued invasion of these criminals - seal it up or open it up even wider?
If 12-20 million criminals crossing the border isn't enough, when do you say stop? Why not let the whole country of Mexico and anyone else who wants to come in just come in as they please? Can't you see where your arguments completely fall apart? You need to either start taking your medication or get off it altogether because it ain't working.
And once again, it's ILLEGAL Immigrants, NOT Immigrants. Immigrants are those that come here legally, and are welcome. The fact that you don't want to distinguish between the two further waters down any pathetic little argument that you can conjure up. Get your terminology right if you wish to be taken even halfway seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
I'll not argue with Anyone that has the IDIOTIC notion that deportation of illegal immigrants is akin to the Nazis treatment of the Jews. As for the whole college idea, it's ludicrous. Maybe you should start an underground tunnel to help these people get in while you're at it.
I'm seriously beginning to get the idea there is something in the water up in Tulsa. You won't hear this kind of garbage coming from the front lines of the illegal immigrant problem down here. Perhaps you guys need to get out of your white bread houses up in Tulsa and come down here where the problems with illegal immigration are a big reality.
And let me give you a hit; COWTOWING to millions of THUGS that demand citizenship is NOT the way to do it.
the illegals are trying to set a dangerous precendent. The latest prevailing excuse is "we all pay taxes, so we should be able to stay here"
Maybe that works in Mexico, but paying taxes is NOT the only requirement for residency here, contrary to popular belief. This kind of comment cannot be allowed to stand. If you ever hear an illegal say this, you need to set them straight. They are trying to appeal to the greed factor. Sorry illegals, we know you are employed by greedy employers who take advantage of you and engage in anti competitive behavior, but 1804 is going to take care of them. Start packing your bags.
"We pay taxes" is the biggest bunch of horse sh!t perpetrated on us by this crowd.
They get jobs using bogus social security numbers or outright identity theft. They get "documentation" through illegal means.
They have the minimal amount of Federal and State taxes as possible taken out of their checks, and do not file a return to settle up with the gov't on April 15. Partially because they live in fear of being traced, but mainly because they are concerned with what they can earn here, not what they can give back to support government-provided services they take advantage of.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Our dumb immigration law and policy are more to blame than the workers coming here. We have a good thing going here: high wages, low corruption, and a nice standard of living. I cannot blame them for wanting to be a part of it.
Our laws make it so many people will not have that chance. Not only low wage workers from the South, by attorneys, engineers, accountants, physicists, artists and many others. Our nation is starved for both cheap labor, skilled labor, and educated labor. But we turn people away at the door because of an arbitrary number made up by a desk jockey in Washington (made up - as in it has no real basis).
Lets solve the root cause - failed immigration policy, before making another half-assed attempt at border security. When those that want to come and WORK (not get handouts) are able to do so, our time will be better spent fighting to keep true miscreants and sloths out of our country.
"I'll not argue with Anyone that has the IDIOTIC notion that deportation..." - Hothead in Texas
Different tact.
I assume your in favor of rounding-up some 10-20 million people and deporting them?
Any provisions for a forwarding address?
Over night raides SWAT like with copters?
MythBusters busted the Catipult border crossing so what's that leave? Cargo planes, Semis, one big-donkey water slide back to the otherside?
Millions of people, all ages, the unfit to travel, the young girl along side the Gang banger in a boxcar?
I know your not talking to me with the rest of your post...as if I were shoved into a corner I'd be a Minuteman: albeit, warm and fuzzy with the elderly.
The reform issue centers on addressing those here in the states, no?
Creating an enforceble policy, no?
If hunting for workable solution other then a mass deportation makes me a "sympathizer" then ok, I am also a jay-walker which makes me a criminal, so be the name calling.
But in telling me I should be ashamed of myself for dragging Hitler out of the closet to prop up the argument....I think you should concider that you might be the one promoting a repeat of something AKIN to the early stages of WWII - the mass deportation of a particular group of people that were deemed unwanted. So back at you, or - how about just chilling out man?
It's your blood pressure, jdb
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
"I'll not argue with Anyone that has the IDIOTIC notion that deportation..." - Hothead in Texas
Different tact.
I assume your in favor of rounding-up some 10-20 million people and deporting them?
Any provisions for a forwarding address?
Over night raides SWAT like with copters?
MythBusters busted the Catipult border crossing so what's that leave? Cargo planes, Semis, one big-donkey water slide back to the otherside?
Millions of people, all ages, the unfit to travel, the young girl along side the Gang banger in a boxcar?
I know your not talking to me with the rest of your post...as if I were shoved into a corner I'd be a Minuteman, albeit warm and fuzzy over trigger happy though.
In telling me I should be ashamed of myself for dragging Hitler out of the closet to prop up the argument....I think you should concider that you might be the one promoting a repeat of something AKIN to the early stages of WWII - the mass deportation of a particular group of people that were deemed unwanted. So back at you or - how about just chilling out man?
It's your blood pressure, jdb
And there again we have another illegal alien sympathizer going to extremes by saying things like getting rid of a particular group of people is akin to the treatment of the Jews. I see that you toned it down somewhat now, by saying that it's reminiscent of the "early stages of WWII."
And who said anything about rounding them all up? I say that they will go back through attrition once the dangling carrot of jobs, anchor babies, employment, and benefits are taken away.
Want to answer the question about what you are going to do about the CONTINUED invasion or are you going to claim that it's also similar to the Nazi treatment of the Jews that we put up a fence to keep out those that want to BREAK OUR LAWS AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR SYSTEM. It's tripe that comes out of sympathizers like you that makes people hotheaded. Better a hothead than a criminal sympathizer.
And btw, CROSSING the border and coming into this country illegally IS NOT similar to jaywalking. I see where you and the rest of your ilk are coming from a mile away.
The world according to JayDeeBee:
Crossing the border illegally, hiding out and not paying taxes, putting a burden on our social infrastructure; not to mention the other criminal acts committed by many of these criminals = jaywalking..
Enforcing our laws = Nazi treatment of the jews..
GET SERIOUS.
I purpose we hold a rally where we distribute copies of the Santa Biblia/Holy Bible bi-lingual edition, where everyone gets to practice a foreign language AND get blessed by the Word of the Lord at the same time.
Hey, we keep catching eachother in mid edit. Truce on the speed post factor?
I see that you toned it down somewhat now, by saying that it's reminiscent of the "early stages of WWII."
An attempt to encourage you to tone it down and at the same time, better define the position.
"And who said anything about rounding them all up?
I asked if that was your stance.
You say it not's ...onward with the subject.
I say that they will go back through attrition once the dangling carrot of jobs, anchor babies, employment, and benefits are taken away.
I don't see that happening.
Want to answer the question about what you are going to do about the CONTINUED invasion?
Aside from trying to stay one step in front of the Coyote, and actually enforcing the penalty for crossing over, I haven't heard any new ideas at the border.
"BREAK OUR LAWS AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR SYSTEM."
I understand that people would rather live here and are willing to risk their lives getting across. Against that, being branded an "illegal" is small beans.
I think given the choice "they" would rather be a part of our system then taking advantage of it.
Which begs the question of, "Should they have the option?" Oh but were already addressing too many subjects here as it is.
It's trife that comes out of sympathizers like you that makes people hotheaded.
I don't think so, there's more to it then that.
Fess up. And for the record, I am not the sympathizer you paint here.
Better a hothead than a criminal sympathizer.
Again, it's your blood pressure.
Guest Workers: a worn-out idea
By John J. Sweeney and Pablo Alvarado, Special to Los Angeles Times
Corporate America has made an expanded guest-worker program the cornerstone of its preferred brand of immigration reform, and no wonder: It will assure a steady flow of cheap labor from essentially indentured workers too afraid of being deported to protest substandard wages, chiseled benefits and unsafe working conditions.
Such a system will create a disenfranchised underclass of workers. That is not only morally indefensible, it is economically nonsensical. We've had plenty of bad experiences with such shortsighted answers to a complicated problem.
The notorious bracero program all but enslaved immigrant agricultural and railroad workers in the years after World War II. Today we have H-2A and H-2B visa programs to remind us that "temporary" immigration employment models rest on a faulty foundation.
The H-2 programs bring in agricultural and other seasonal workers to pick crops, do construction and work in the seafood industry, among other jobs. Workers typically borrow large amounts of money to pay travel expenses, fees and sometimes bribes to recruiters. That means that before they even begin to work, they are indebted. They leave their families at home, and they are essentially "bound" to employers who can send them home on a whim and who do not have to prove a need to hire them in the first place.
According to a new study published by the Southern Poverty Law Center, it is not unusual for a Guatemalan worker to pay more than $2,500 in fees to obtain a seasonal guest-worker position, about a year's worth of income in Guatemala. And Thai workers have been known to pay as much as $10,000 for the chance to harvest crops in the orchards of the Pacific Northwest. Interest rates on the loans are sometimes as high as 20 percent a month. Homes and vehicles are required collateral. Handcuffed by their debt, the "guests" are forced to remain and work for employers even when their pay and working conditions are second-rate, hazardous or abusive. Hungry children inevitably checkmate protest.
Technically, these programs include some legal protections, but in reality, those protections exist mostly on paper. Government enforcement is almost nonexistent. Private attorneys refuse to take cases. And guest workers, especially the poorest, the least educated and those with the least English, end up with no choice but to put their heads down and toil, innocently undermining employment standards for all U.S. workers in the process.
This doesn't mean that there is no solution to the immigration crisis or no good way to deal with workers and families who will want to come -and who we will need to come -to the United States to work.
In 1997, the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform validated our belief that a "properly regulated system of permanent admissions serves the national interest" and warned that another temporary-worker program would be a "grievous mistake." This means that everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship.
Yes, employers who can prove that they tried and failed to find U.S. workers should be able to hire foreign workers. But no, they shouldn't be able to bring them in under abusive conditions that have a negative effect on the wages and working conditions of other workers.
Yes, we should have caps set to limit the number of employment-based visas issued each year. But no, they should not be determined, as the H-2 quotas are now, by political compromise or industry lobbying. The number of employment-based visas should be set each year by the Department of Labor based on macro-economic indicators that establish the needs of particular industries.
Employers should not be allowed to recruit abroad, a practice that invites bribes, exorbitant fees and potential abuse. Instead, employers should be required to hire from applications filed by workers in their home countries through a computerized job bank.
Foreign workers should enjoy the same rights and protections as U.S. workers, including freedom to form unions and bargain for a better life. Labor laws must protect all workers, regardless of immigration status. If we leave undocumented workers without any real way to enforce labor laws, as our laws do now, we are feeding employers' hunger for more and more exploitable workers, relegating them to second-class status. That hurts all workers.
Scholars have long recognized that the genius of U.S. immigration policy throughout our history has been the opportunity afforded to immigrants for full membership in society. That is the solid foundation on which a morally and economically sound policy can be built, and it is the foundation we are working together to build.
Sweeney is president of the AFL-CIO. Alvarado is executive director of the National Day Laborer Organizing Network.
And btw, CROSSING the border and coming into this country illegally IS NOT similar to jaywalking. I see where you and the rest of your ilk are coming from a mile away.
The world according to JayDeeBee:
Crossing the border illegally, hiding out and not paying taxes, putting a burden on our social infrastructure; not to mention the other criminal acts committed by many of these criminals = jaywalking..
Enforcing our laws = Nazi treatment of the jews..
GET SERIOUS.
To counter your hotheaded stance that illegal aliens are akin to heinous villians, I use the other extreme of Jay-walking. Balance.
Both are criminal, no?
Your take/ spin on my opinon is inaccurate and doesn't help your position, give it up.
According to the Tulsa World and their Oklahoma poll, Immigration is three times more important to Tulsans than it is to folks in Oklahoma City. They opined that it might be the result of local politician John Sullivan's focus on immigration. And I want to point out that we also have different news operations.
My question is why is the immigration issue more important to Tulsans that folks from the City? OKC is only 90 some odd miles down the road.
Beats me. I guess we're just a bunch of redneck, xenophobic, racists up here in Tulsa.
Are you feeling okay today HT? You didn't mention "hate" or "hateful" once in your post.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
According to the Tulsa World and their Oklahoma poll, Immigration is three times more important to Tulsans than it is to folks in Oklahoma City. They opined that it might be the result of local politician John Sullivan's focus on immigration. And I want to point out that we also have different news operations.
My question is why is the immigration issue more important to Tulsans that folks from the City? OKC is only 90 some odd miles down the road.
My guess would be that most of us are smart enough to recognize a dangerous threat to the quality of life, rule of law and standard of living in our communities when we see one.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
According to the Tulsa World and their Oklahoma poll, Immigration is three times more important to Tulsans than it is to folks in Oklahoma City. They opined that it might be the result of local politician John Sullivan's focus on immigration. And I want to point out that we also have different news operations.
My question is why is the immigration issue more important to Tulsans that folks from the City? OKC is only 90 some odd miles down the road.
My guess would be that most of us are smart enough to recognize a dangerous threat to the quality of life, rule of law and standard of living in our communities when we see one.
What ever happened to being a young, hateful white man?[;)]
REMOVED
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
My question is why is the immigration issue more important to Tulsans that folks from the City? OKC is only 90 some odd miles down the road.
I dont know much about the Hispanic population in OKC, but perhaps it is because there is a large Hispanic Community in one location in Tulsa (East Tulsa) that are well organized. They have rallies several times a year either downtown or at 21st and Garnett and always manage to keep them in check and draw media attention. I have not seen news coverage of anything similar in OKC even at the capital building (perhaps one demonstration?).
Or perhaps there is a larger federal presence in OKC and illegal immigrants avoid the area? Maybe there is more work and more of them in Tulsa?
Just ideas.
QuoteOriginally posted by jdb
Hey, we keep catching eachother in mid edit. Truce on the speed post factor?
I see that you toned it down somewhat now, by saying that it's reminiscent of the "early stages of WWII."
An attempt to encourage you to tone it down and at the same time, better define the position.
No, it's backpeddling on your part.
"And who said anything about rounding them all up?
I asked if that was your stance.
You say it not's ...onward with the subject.
Sure, move on because you don't have a point
I say that they will go back through attrition once the dangling carrot of jobs, anchor babies, employment, and benefits are taken away.
I don't see that happening.
So what if you don't see that happening? When I want to know how to stand up and wave a white flag to invaders, I'll be sure and ask the expert on a subject such as yourself.
Want to answer the question about what you are going to do about the CONTINUED invasion?
Aside from trying to stay one step in front of the Coyote, and actually enforcing the penalty for crossing over, I haven't heard any new ideas at the border.
Who needs new ideas. Just like the laws you and yours don't want enforced, we need to redouble our efforts at the border combined with penalizing employers, stopping the care wagons, and getting these illegal aliens back to where they belong.
"BREAK OUR LAWS AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR SYSTEM."
I understand that people would rather live here and are willing to risk their lives getting across. Against that, being branded an "illegal" is small beans.
You do say? Well, that's your opinion and I'm stating a fact of law, that they are here illegally.
I think given the choice "they" would rather be a part of our system then taking advantage of it.
Uh, no, the very fact that they sneak across the border, give birth to anchor babies, do not pay their share of taxes, etc., etc., etc., is descriptive of how they are taking advantage of our system.
Which begs the question of, "Should they have the option?" Oh but were already addressing too many subjects here as it is.
NO, the only option they should have is to go back and try to come here legally.
It's trife that comes out of sympathizers like you that makes people hotheaded.
I don't think so, there's more to it then that.
Fess up.
You fess up. You're the one that seems to wish to ignore the law.
And for the record, I am not the sympathizer you paint here.
And how do you describe all of the above, mr. jdb?
^ Say.... How's the weather down there in Texas??
I can only speak from my experience with the latinos that I have known from back when Caesar Chavez did the talking for them....
Although; there have been people that have come from Mexico, under the wire, for much longer than that.
Whatever the people and you think about this discussion, I can assure you of one thing.
Things may get far worse as a result of this dramatic effort to turn the time machine back to about 1961....
I have studied Mexican Gangs in and around the Los Angeles.
The most fierce gang members and the so called leaders of the gangs shared one common denominator....
They were born of illegal parents, they were slandered for being "hair lips, wetbacks, spics, and the whole thesaurus of other wonderful American adjectives....
I believe you will find that if their isn't a civilized outcome to this whole problem that we will have set in motion violence that has yet to come to pass.
Vaya con Dios Tejano
quote:
Originally posted by dinkleman23
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Beats me. I guess we're just a bunch of redneck, xenophobic, racists up here in Tulsa.
Are you feeling okay today HT? You didn't mention "hate" or "hateful" once in your post.
Actually, truer words were never spoken. Add homophobic and just about have it nailed. The race riot didn't happen in Tulsa by accident.
Geez. Tulsa hasn't changed a bit since the race riots. Have you been out of your house since the early 20s? Welcome to 2007.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
^ Say.... How's the weather down there in Texas??
I can only speak from my experience with the latinos that I have known from back when Caesar Chavez did the talking for them....
Although; there have been people that have come from Mexico, under the wire, for much longer than that.
Whatever the people and you think about this discussion, I can assure you of one thing.
Things may get far worse as a result of this dramatic effort to turn the time machine back to about 1961....
I have studied Mexican Gangs in and around the Los Angeles.
The most fierce gang members and the so called leaders of the gangs shared one common denominator....
They were born of illegal parents,[/b] they were slandered for being "hair lips, wetbacks, spics, and the whole thesaurus of other wonderful American adjectives....
I believe you will find that if their isn't a civilized outcome to this whole problem that we will have set in motion violence that has yet to come to pass.
Vaya con Dios Tejano
This statement just about sums up the entire reason we need to ship the illegal aliens back home.
"I have studied Mexican Gangs in and around the Los Angeles. The most fierce gang members and the so called leaders of the gangs shared one common denominator....They were born of illegal parents, they were slandered for being "hair lips, wetbacks, spics, and the whole thesaurus of other wonderful American adjectives..."
And btw, the weather's fine down here, kind of wet.
As for your threats that if there isn't a "civilized" outcome, there will be etc, etc, etc, the likes of which... Please, you sound like Sadam Hussein and his mother of all wars statements. We all know where he ended up.
Sounds like you're threatening a race war with our nice little friends who want nothing more than to come here and work. Very, very civilized of these illegal aliens. I can assure you if such a thing ever did come to pass, things would be very unpleasant for the illegal aliens and anyone that wants to wave white flags and run around with their noses up their butts.
Ciao..
^ Well it is kinda sad when one can not hold a civilized discussion with another person....
"race War" "noses up the butts of illegal aliens"
Really is this how they taught you to act in grammar school in Texas...
No Vaya con Dios.... Vaya con el Diablo si quieres
Buena Suerte Tejano
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
^ Well it is kinda sad when one can not hold a civilized discussion with another person....
"race War" "noses up the butts of illegal aliens"
Really is this how they taught you to act in grammar school in Texas...
No Vaya con Dios.... Vaya con el Diablo si quieres
Buena Suerte Tejano
Personal comments removed
""No, it's backpeddling on your part." - Tfit
Well then, here's hoping you don't burst a forehead vien in your mission to somehow ship millions of people across the border.
How do I describe the above?
I'll try "reasoning with pigheaded people for $300, Alex."
Between this and the "Stoning", I think I hit the Daily Double!
jdb
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
""No, it's backpeddling on your part." - Tfit
Well then, here's hoping you don't burst a forehead vien in your mission to somehow ship millions of people across the border.
How do I describe the above?
I'll try "reasoning with pigheaded people for $300, Alex."
Between this and the "Stoning", I think I hit the Daily Double!
jdb
You've watched "Children of Men" way too many times.. You take yourself way too seriously, illegal alien sympathizer.
well there you go again, making assumptions based on the thin air of projections.
I have no idea of what the "children/men" crack is about.
Guessing it's a newer tv show? And that if you don't like it maybe I would? is that your point?
You got me at an dis-advantage, jdb
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
well there you go again, making assumptions based on the thin air of projections.
I have no idea of what the "children/men" crack is about.
Guessing it's a newer tv show? And that if you don't like it maybe I would? is that your point?
You got me at an dis-advantage, jdb
No assumptions necessary. I'm basing my remarks that you are an illegal alien sympathizer on your defense of illegal aliens and denial of all the problems they present.
I'm basing my remarks that you are an illegal alien sympathizer on your defense of illegal aliens and denial of all the problems they present.
OK, that didn't say much, but I think I get it:
Looking at the situation from "their" side of the story equal defending them, right?
Guilty.
Anyone who doesn't turn red in the face, and start spitting all over the face of the person in front of them, when dicussing this subject, is a **************.
Guilty.
Thinking some type of solution needs to be implimented, the sooner the better, to thrawt a rico-nomus prediction?
Guilty.
Elevated blood pressure?
Not guilty, unless turning to the back of the Urban Tulsa, porno section.
By Rico's deeply flawed logic, we should make American women wear burqas and convert everyone to islam to keep islamic terrorists from attacking us. No thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
By Rico's deeply flawed logic, we should make American women wear burqas and convert everyone to islam to keep islamic terrorists from attacking us. No thanks.
Double.. you may call my statement flawed if you like...
If you had ever lived in or around a community that has second and third generation Mexicans...
You would have seen the beginning.... when the patriarch spoke broken English when he put his children in school... and the results an intolerant society can have on things yet to happen.
Your political hot button buzzwords such as "Islamic" and "terrorists" do nothing to bolster your line of arguement.
Just as much as threatening violent retribution on the streets of the United States if our immigration laws are enforced detracts from yours. Do you really think Oklahomans will respond well to that?
BTW, I started a poll on HB 1804:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6527
http://www.outragedpatriots.com/
"A cameraman for the NBC affiliate in Houston was captured on home video sporting a Mexican flag on his camera while covering a rally in the Texas city that supported illegal immigrants, drawing angry shouts from counter-protesters."
http://www.outragedpatriots.com/
Notice the one word spin tactic?
Which came first, these guys or the Tulsa Whirled?
What better way to encourage Hispanic people to step up in front of a camera at a Hispanic Rally?
Was shocked - I tell you! - that counter-protesters even noticed.
Wasn't so shocked that a few days later, NBC told the guy to, "Cool it, next time.".
If one is drawn to bombastic hardliners spitting rhetoric into megaphones I highly recommend the above link.
WARNING: blood pressure medication may be required.
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
I'm basing my remarks that you are an illegal alien sympathizer on your defense of illegal aliens and denial of all the problems they present.
OK, that didn't say much, but I think I get it:
Looking at the situation from "their" side of the story equal defending them, right?
Guilty.
Anyone who doesn't turn red in the face, and start spitting all over the face of the person in front of them, when dicussing this subject, is a **************.
Guilty.
Thinking some type of solution needs to be implimented, the sooner the better, to thrawt a rico-nomus prediction?
Guilty.
Elevated blood pressure?
Not guilty, unless turning to the back of the Urban Tulsa, porno section.
I've looked at the story from both sides as well, and in other posts on this forum have said that I don't hold the illegal aliens responsible as much as I do employers and politicians (from both sides). That doesn't mean they get a free ride by having Mayday marches and demanding citizenship. They are ILLEGAL ALIENS.
And then you get posts from Rico, and you don't even take offense to that. Millions of people, come here illegally (alot of them in gangs, by Rico's own admission) and then threaten violence if there is any attempt to send them back to where they belong, and you just chime right in, waving your white flag and say "Oh, we need to avert this at all costs!" What, dear illegal alien, can we do to appease you because I for one do not want violence!"
I don't want violence either but I'm not willing to give in to demands and threats from violence to a bunch of people invading my country.
Pansy..
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
"A cameraman for the NBC affiliate in Houston was captured on home video sporting a Mexican flag on his camera while covering a rally in the Texas city that supported illegal immigrants, drawing angry shouts from counter-protesters."
http://www.outragedpatriots.com/
Notice the one word spin tactic?
Which came first, these guys or the Tulsa Whirled?
What better way to encourage Hispanic people to step up in front of a camera at a Hispanic Rally?
Was shocked - I tell you! - that counter-protesters even noticed.
Wasn't so shocked that a few days later, NBC told the guy to, "Cool it, next time.".
If one is drawn to bombastic hardliners spitting rhetoric into megaphones I highly recommend the above link.
WARNING: blood pressure medication may be required.
Personal comments removed
Another good website to fight illegal immigration..
http://www.illegalimmigrationboycott.com/
"the rally was in support of illegal aliens." -tiT
I guess with all the excitement I missed where it said that. Care to point your source?
I don't mind rico's post: as I am he, as he is me, and we all drink the same cool-aide.
Difference is his has more flavor.
Actually, some of our talks do disturb me, I'd brush him off if he was just a bonified kook.
Hey, name-caller, what kinda time-table do you favor for the morjority of these 12 million individuals to be removed from Country?
Odd verbage "knucklehead"...aren't you the dence headed knuckle fisted one in the room? Thought I was the Pansy????
Kinda figured you'd already have that set as your homepage. Here's a link that might prove healthful someday:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-blood-pressure-medication/HI00028
Personal comments removed
TFIT:
Did you happen to see the interview with Lou Dobbs about this issue the other day?
-2 confused sentence structure.
Snarky comment took two edits.
Second edit didn't post.
Point still came across.
NBD, jdb
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
-2 confused sentence structure.
Snarky comment took two edits.
Gave up early at that.
Point still came across.
NBD, jdb
Not trying to pick a fight, but do you start drinking pretty early in the day?
Depends on the day, company, and what's planned for later.
Otherwise, anything close to the crack of noon is fair game.
Weather has my Wifi stumbling, never have been much good with grammer, I prefer the color blue and enjoy my life.
OOOooh, look 12:22...Cheers!
Mmmm... beer thirty. Beer- the common denominator.
It's always five o'clock somewhere...
Image Removed
Too much more of this, and the thread will be locked.
"Care to point out yours that it WASN'T in support of illegal immigrants? " - tiT
Sure, and from similar (credible?) sites even:
"anti-illegal immigration rally"
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/187666.php
"a pro-immigration rally"
http://bobmccarty.wordpress.com/2007/05/02/nbc-cameraman-displays-mexican-flag-at-rally/
"Rally In Houston For Immigration Policy"
http://www.topix.net/forum/news/immigration/TJGH4JM6KJ75CVOLP
jdb
<editing for spelling>[8D]