Nothing has brought me closer to packing it in and saying goodbye hometown than the two hateful bills that recently passed our State House and Senate. Anti-immigrant and anti-abortion. I've pumped close to $400,000 thousand into the local economy in the past year and a half and I'm telling you there are other folks out there thinking what I'm thinking: Oklahoma is going too far and there are lots of other places to live.
Please Governor Henry, do the right thing and veto these hateful bills.
$400K????
How did you do that on the crappy wages you earn?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
$400K????
How did you do that on the crappy wages you earn?
California real estate, working in California and saving. There's more to follow. Governor veto these bills so I can spend it here.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
$400K????
How did you do that on the crappy wages you earn?
California real estate, working in California and saving. There's more to follow. Governor veto these bills so I can spend it here.
I hear it's beautiful, especially this time of year...
Is that any way to talk to the life long Democrat that's going to pull your s**** Republican a** out of the quicksand?
Now tell the governor to veto this foolishness or die with a mouthful of dirty sand.
You'll need more than your half-empty glass of water to make quick-sand. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Is that any way to talk to the life long Democrat that's going to pull your s**** Republican a** out of the quicksand?
Now tell the governor to veto this foolishness or die with a mouthful of dirty sand.
Do you prefer business class or coach?
You may like it if he vetoes these bills, but the majority of Oklahomans will not. His approval ratings will fall.
Oklahomans are good Christian conservatives. If you have a problem with this, than I have no problem with you leaving our fare city.
Illegal alieans are just that - - - illegal. To refer to them as "undocumented workers" is like calling a drug pusher an "unlicensed pharmacist."
Am I comparing drug dealing with illegal immigrants? YOU BETCHA!!!
IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
The only thing I think that's stupid about these bills is that it is nothing more than a bill calling for the enforcement of laws which already exist.
If the illegals don't like this, then they can go back to that wonderful clean country they came from.
(http://www.xispas.com/blog/images/july2005/newmexico.gif)
The only error I see on the latest map of Mexico is they left out most of California. I'm not sure what that shaded line is supposed to be south of NM, AZ, Ca, and SW of Texas. [B)]
(http://www.nbwclub.org/events/2005-tourdepaz/mexico_map.jpg)
It's the Rio Grande. It's real important to them...kinda like the Ghanges to the Indians, so they make it real dark on the map as a sign of it's importance...nothing more.
quote:
Oklahomans are good Christian conservatives.
You could just say "Oklahoma's are fundamentalists." It saves 40% of the words! Just like saying 'terrorists' is shorter than saying "Muslim Extremists." If you must add verbiage, you may as well add passionate before conservative while you are at it. And on a side note: the whole 'if you dont like it leave' thing is getting REALLY old. Good thing the founding father's didnt just move to France for more freedoms.
But I'm going to have to ask
Hometown to be more specific on the bills he was referring to. There are 3 different Senate Bills on abortion (statistics, requiring informed consent, and insurance hindrance) and 3 on illegal immigration (all vague in their general descriptions - creating agencies to pretend to do things mostly). I really cant comment until I have read the bills.
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
You may like it if he vetoes these bills, but the majority of Oklahomans will not. His approval ratings will fall.
Oklahomans are good Christian conservatives. If you have a problem with this, than I have no problem with you leaving our fare city.
Soooo just in general all the bills the OK House passes are as good as the New Testament, right? Bizarre, man.
Emailed to me this afternoon:
Question - When you apply for Welfare in Mexico what does that Government give you?
Answer - A map of the United States
[xx(]
So what hole did you crawl out of Ippy? I know it wasn't Tulsa. Say what you will about Tulsans, they know how to act in public.
You guys sit around dreaming about how to play ball with the big boys. How to push Tulsa into the mainstream of national life.
You aren't going to get there by passing hateful extremist legislation that targets women and Latinos.
It's about time for the Oklahoma jokes to start again. Unfortunately if you are on the wrong end of the hatefulness, it isn't at all funny.
Sometimes I look around and I think, these fools are getting exactly what they deserve. And I'm not looking at women or Latinos.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Nothing has brought me closer to packing it in and saying goodbye hometown than the two hateful bills that recently passed our State House and Senate. Anti-immigrant and anti-abortion. I've pumped close to $400,000 thousand into the local economy in the past year and a half and I'm telling you there are other folks out there thinking what I'm thinking: Oklahoma is going too far and there are lots of other places to live.
Please Governor Henry, do the right thing and veto these hateful bills.
You sound like a massive consumer....I think there might be a place next to Gore's....Maybe you two could share a composting pile....
HB 1804 will become law, even if Henry vetoes, which I highly doubt. It is veto proof. BTW, I know many Democrats that support this bill.
Double A you want to have it both ways. One day you want to present yourself as a party regular and the next day you align yourself with the Right Wing Extremists (Minute Men). I have no doubt there are some Democrats in Oklahoma that are at the beginning of a learning curve about immigrants. But the Democrats are in a full fledged fight with the Republicans for the Latin vote. Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are. Now a good Democrat does not align themselves with right wing extremists. I shouldn't have to tell you that.
You are a well off young White who lives in a culture tailor made for you. You enjoy many advantages. It is the responsibility of strong people to extend a hand of help to those who need it. You have somehow missed out the basics of being a gentle person.
In fact, you have a deep seated grudge against Latins. I don't know if some Latin k***** your a** or what but I do know you don't represent the mainstream of party thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Nothing has brought me closer to packing it in and saying goodbye hometown than the two hateful bills that recently passed our State House and Senate. Anti-immigrant and anti-abortion. I've pumped close to $400,000 thousand into the local economy in the past year and a half and I'm telling you there are other folks out there thinking what I'm thinking: Oklahoma is going too far and there are lots of other places to live.
Please Governor Henry, do the right thing and veto these hateful bills.
You sound like a massive consumer....I think there might be a place next to Gore's....Maybe you two could share a composting pile....
I feel like Miss Peggy on Romper Room for Hateful Republicans.
I'm looking through the mirror saying:
I see Ippy, I see Conan, I see Canon, I see Breadburner, I see Cubs, I see Double A (closet R.), I see LilMikey, I see ... oh my, horns and a red tail.
All my little friends gather around so Miss Peggy can tell you about loving your neighbor.
Add "I can see Tulsfan-inTexas" to that list.
Illegals are not just immigrants, they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Using the term "immigrants" when we all know that you are talking about illegal immigrants is a slap in the face against anyone that has had to jump through the multiple hoops to come and live here legally and abide by our laws. Shall we just open up the borders and let everyone in or only the Latinos of which you speak? If the answer is no, then what's your problem? Are you against Germans, Poles, French, Africans?
For someone to say they are against illegal immigrants does not mean they are against Latinos. I know many, many Latinos down here in Texas and they are not for people trampling over the borders to get here. So, essentially anytime someone who is for illegal immigration starts talking about everyone for LEGAL immigration having something against Latinos they are in fact just using the race card, albeit in a little more subtle manner. Pull the race card when you have nothing valid to say, you lose - plain and simple.
That being said, it's certainly not the illegal immigrants that are at the core of this problem. If I had the giant carrot of higher wages and opportunity dangled in front of me like the lawmakers and corporations in this country have done to those south of the border I'd come running up here as well; laws or no laws.
The Democrats want the votes and the Republicans want cheap labor. They're both corrupt and until we boot these people out of office and charge them with enforcing the laws things will never change.
YAWN
Hey, I'm learning how to talk to Republicans here. If I could ever reach a "Cubs" I'd know how to repair all the damage that the last 30 years has done to national life. The heartland has been devastated by the Reagan Revolution.
Anyway both of the bills I mentioned have been described as draconian. Both bills would inflict real harm on fellow Oklahomans. The Tulsa World published an editorial urging Henry to veto the bill on abortion. I've heard folks in the Latin community speaking up against the ill-advised anti-immigrant bill. A simple reading of this bill tells you it will create enormous financial burdens for a state that can't even pay the bill before these additional burdens.
This is bad medicine that will hurt Oklahomans.
Davaz, most of these people are interlopers from somewhere else. I feel like a bystander in my own hometown as I watch them ruin what's left of what was good.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey, I'm learning how to talk to Republicans here. If I could ever reach a "Cubs" I'd know how to repair all the damage that the last 30 years has done to national life. The heartland has been devastated by the Reagan Revolution.
Anyway both of the bills I mentioned have been described as draconian. Both bills would inflict real harm on fellow Oklahomans. The Tulsa World published an editorial urging Henry to veto the bill on abortion. I've heard folks in the Latin community speaking up against the ill-advised anti-immigrant bill. A simple reading of this bill tells you it will create enormous financial burdens for a state that can't even pay the bill before these additional burdens.
This is bad medicine that will hurt Oklahomans.
Davaz, most of these people are interlopers from somewhere else. I feel like a bystander in my own hometown as I watch them ruin what's left of what was good.
Lol...Your a quack.....Your whats wrong with Tulsa....
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey, I'm learning how to talk to Republicans here. If I could ever reach a "Cubs" I'd know how to repair all the damage that the last 30 years has done to national life. The heartland has been devastated by the Reagan Revolution.
Anyway both of the bills I mentioned have been described as draconian. Both bills would inflict real harm on fellow Oklahomans. The Tulsa World published an editorial urging Henry to veto the bill on abortion. I've heard folks in the Latin community speaking up against the ill-advised anti-immigrant bill. A simple reading of this bill tells you it will create enormous financial burdens for a state that can't even pay the bill before these additional burdens.
This is bad medicine that will hurt Oklahomans.
Davaz, most of these people are interlopers from somewhere else. I feel like a bystander in my own hometown as I watch them ruin what's left of what was good.
Awww, the Reagan Revolution. It warms my heart and brings a tear to my eye. If only we could find someone just like him to be president again.
As far as House Bill 1804. It should have been passed years ago.
How do you write "Illegals, don't let the sun set on you" in Spanish? I want to make some signs and put them at the Texas-Oklahoma border.
I'm glad to see Oklahoma once again leading the country with legislation that gets **** done. This will stick it hard to illegals and tell them to stay the **** out of Oklahoma. Once other states see how well this works like our meth laws did, they will be passing similiar laws.
MH2010 wrote:
Awww, the Reagan Revolution. It warms my heart and brings a tear to my eye. If only we could find someone just like him to be president again.
As far as House Bill 1804. It should have been passed years ago.
<end clip>
Pardon me ... But wasn't Reagan the one that granted Amnesty, in 1986, to the illegal immigrants from Mejico..?
Viva Reagan..!
[}:)]
Not much is going to change regardless of your House Bill 1804...
When you figure out where the demand for illegal labor comes from... You will see a stacked deck.. Play on...
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey, I'm learning how to talk to Republicans here. If I could ever reach a "Cubs" I'd know how to repair all the damage that the last 30 years has done to national life. The heartland has been devastated by the Reagan Revolution.
Anyway both of the bills I mentioned have been described as draconian. Both bills would inflict real harm on fellow Oklahomans. The Tulsa World published an editorial urging Henry to veto the bill on abortion. I've heard folks in the Latin community speaking up against the ill-advised anti-immigrant bill. A simple reading of this bill tells you it will create enormous financial burdens for a state that can't even pay the bill before these additional burdens.
This is bad medicine that will hurt Oklahomans.
Davaz, most of these people are interlopers from somewhere else. I feel like a bystander in my own hometown as I watch them ruin what's left of what was good.
Awww, the Reagan Revolution. It warms my heart and brings a tear to my eye. If only we could find someone just like him to be president again.
As far as House Bill 1804. It should have been passed years ago.
Check out this website www.DraftFredThompson.com (//%22http://draftfredthompson.com%22) For a true Reagan conservative
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey, I'm learning how to talk to Republicans here. If I could ever reach a "Cubs" I'd know how to repair all the damage that the last 30 years has done to national life. The heartland has been devastated by the Reagan Revolution.
Anyway both of the bills I mentioned have been described as draconian. Both bills would inflict real harm on fellow Oklahomans. The Tulsa World published an editorial urging Henry to veto the bill on abortion. I've heard folks in the Latin community speaking up against the ill-advised anti-immigrant bill. A simple reading of this bill tells you it will create enormous financial burdens for a state that can't even pay the bill before these additional burdens.
This is bad medicine that will hurt Oklahomans.
Davaz, most of these people are interlopers from somewhere else. I feel like a bystander in my own hometown as I watch them ruin what's left of what was good.
Lol...Your a quack.....Your whats wrong with Tulsa....
You can't conjugate verbs. If you were from Tulsa you could manage 5th grade English.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey, I'm learning how to talk to Republicans here. If I could ever reach a "Cubs" I'd know how to repair all the damage that the last 30 years has done to national life. The heartland has been devastated by the Reagan Revolution.
Anyway both of the bills I mentioned have been described as draconian. Both bills would inflict real harm on fellow Oklahomans. The Tulsa World published an editorial urging Henry to veto the bill on abortion. I've heard folks in the Latin community speaking up against the ill-advised anti-immigrant bill. A simple reading of this bill tells you it will create enormous financial burdens for a state that can't even pay the bill before these additional burdens.
This is bad medicine that will hurt Oklahomans.
Davaz, most of these people are interlopers from somewhere else. I feel like a bystander in my own hometown as I watch them ruin what's left of what was good.
"... what was good." is that Tulsa and Oklahoma in general did not used to be overcrowded with illegal aliens.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey, I'm learning how to talk to Republicans here.
Yeah. I'm sure that's your goal:
I feel like Miss Peggy on Romper Room for Hateful Republicans.
I'm looking through the mirror saying:
I see Ippy, I see Conan, I see Canon, I see Breadburner, I see Cubs, I see Double A (closet R.), I see LilMikey, I see ... oh my, horns and a red tail.You can always tell it's a Hometown thread by the copious use of the term "hate" and the gloom and doom vibe of the thread. Always fearmongering like a good little liberal.
HT-
Are you all for allowing people to come into your home and steal from you? Isn't that illegal?
Have you bothered to read the actual text of the bill, or are you just pretending you did? I don't see how this is even remotely a partisan issue. It is about enforcing other laws which already exist. It is about ending thievery from tax payers and other lawlessness which has followed illegal immigrants into our state.
You need to listen to more than the Fred Ramos' and Victor Orta's to get opinions on this. They are alarmists who think everyone is out to get all Hispanics.
Quit whining to people with more common sense on this issue than yourself and go complain to your DEMOCRAT state Senator Tom Adelson. There are a lot of Democrats backing this bill, HT.
Here is the summary text of the bill, word-for-word:
"The State of Oklahoma finds that illegal immigration is causing economic hardship and lawlessness in this state and that illegal immigration is encouraged by public agencies within this state that provide public benefits without verifying immigration status. The State of Oklahoma further finds that illegal immigrants have been harbored and sheltered in this state and encouraged to reside in this state through the issuance of identification cards that are issued without verifying immigration status, and that these practices impede and obstruct the enforcement of federal immigration law, undermine the security of our borders, and impermissibly restrict the privileges and immunities of the citizens of Oklahoma. Therefore, the people of the State of Oklahoma declare that it is a compelling public interest of this state to discourage illegal immigration by requiring all agencies within this state to fully cooperate with federal immigration authorities in the enforcement of federal immigration laws. The State of Oklahoma also finds that other measures are necessary to ensure the integrity of various governmental programs and services. "
Have at it, HT:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:dvFJSZC5udAJ:webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08HB/HB1804_int.rtf+oklahoma+hb+1804&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
quote:
Originally posted by teddy jack eddy
Illegal aliens should be deported immediately. If they are caught in our country a second time, they should be dropped out of a plane over Mexico City without a parachute.
No baby born of an illegal immigrant mother should become an American citizen by being born in America.
The times....they are gonna be changing. Americans are just beginning to wake up to this problem.
No one knows how many illegal aliens are already career criminals when they come into our country.
Had to fix one part of your statement.
Well lets know what we are talking about:
The Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizens Protection Act of 2007 (//%22http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08bills/HB/HB1804_HFLR.RTF%22)
I'm willing to bet a large portion of posters doesnt even really know what is in the bill. Its even possible none of you have actually read it. Hell, most of the people voting on it probably just look to the whip and follow the thumb without reading. Gotta love democracy.
the section #s are correct, the subsections are consolidated (a, b, c).
§1) Short title
§2)
quote:
The State of Oklahoma finds that illegal immigration is causing economic hardship and lawlessness in this state...
§3) "Human Trafficking" (really transport)
--a)bars any transport of someone you know or have reckless disregard for their status regardless of where or how long you transport them. Ie. You cannot pick up a Latino hitchhiker nor can contractors give rides to day laborers they should know are illegal
--b) No shelter for illegal immigrants (no exceptions given here, but later soup kitchens and federally mandated emergency shelters are exempted)
§4) No ID for illegal residents
--a) Specifies the types of ID that can be given out in this state. ONLY employee, customer/membership cards, FED/State ID/licenses, school ID, professional/union membership card, or medical alert cards.
--b) ID can only be given to people here legally or with pending status.
Basically, an illegal resident cannot even get a Petco card.
note: This seems to conflict with federal law that has already occupied the field as the fed allow Tax ID #s to be granted to anyone who wants to pay taxes. Which would count as an ID and violate OK law. When the state fights the fed, the fed wins (especially for tax dollars).
also, if you are here legally and then your status expires you ID's become illegal.
§5) If arrested for a felony the jail has to make a reasonable attempt to establish status. If illegal, no bond (automatic flight risk) and report to the feds. If unknown status, report to the feds.
§6+7 combine to mean) The state cannot employ, directly or indirectly, someone without legal work status.
State agencies and subdivisions must check the work status of all new employees and subcontractors employees. Provides punishment for violating.
§8) No Benefits for illegals
--a)The State must verify status of anyone over 14 y/o that is applying for benefits.
--b) Except as required by federal law:
- Necessary health care (except organ transplants)
- short term disaster relief (non cash only)
- Immunizations/communicable disease treatment
- Things "such as" soup kitchens, crisis counseling, short term shelter as specified by the attorney general of the US (I assume disaster relief shelter?)
- IF PROVIDED on a community level without qualification (ie. no income threshold)
An affidavit can count as verification for lawful presents for §8, but it provides punishment for perjury.
§9) Employers are to withhold 6% income tax and are liable if they do not. (not sure how that is a knew law)
§10) The State agencies are to team with the fed. Cities or sub agencies are forbidden from interfering in any way (cities cannot pass safe haven ordinances or tell their forces to ignore enforcement).
§11) No college benefits. A person that lacks legal status is not eligible for scholarships, financial aid, nor in state tuition to higher level education. (TCC scholarships?)
---------------------------
So there you have it. Now you at least have an idea of what the law ACTUALLY says. The text is linked above and the section numbers provided are exact. Its only 16 pages so go read it.
For what its worth, the immigrants really arent the problem. They are a symptom of the problem. Our immigration system is stuck in the 1900's when there was a backlash against the great immigration period. We do not allow enough workers in to fill skilled nor unskilled positions. Couple that with a ready supply of underutilization (read unemployed) cheap labor south of the border and a strong demand for it here - and the obvious is going to happen.
At most, this bill is the sticking a finger in the dam. Never mind the fact that the entire structure has failed, we are trying to stop the little leak that is spraying our house. It will make it more miserable for the illegal immigrants that are here and MAY discourage a few from coming. But by and large, illegal immigrants avoid state agencies anyway and will continue to come if there are jobs to be had. The problem will NEVER go away until the underlying problems are addressed.
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Lol...Your a quack.....Your whats wrong with Tulsa....
Said the man with bad grammar.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey, I'm learning how to talk to Republicans here. If I could ever reach a "Cubs" I'd know how to repair all the damage that the last 30 years has done to national life. The heartland has been devastated by the Reagan Revolution.
Anyway both of the bills I mentioned have been described as draconian. Both bills would inflict real harm on fellow Oklahomans. The Tulsa World published an editorial urging Henry to veto the bill on abortion. I've heard folks in the Latin community speaking up against the ill-advised anti-immigrant bill. A simple reading of this bill tells you it will create enormous financial burdens for a state that can't even pay the bill before these additional burdens.
This is bad medicine that will hurt Oklahomans.
Davaz, most of these people are interlopers from somewhere else. I feel like a bystander in my own hometown as I watch them ruin what's left of what was good.
I just re-read this post and as if I needed any additional prompting as to how big a moron you are, this just proved it.
What state did Reagan call home most of his life?
How about those kind-hearted California progressives you so love:
"So many of our problems are made much worse by this huge flow of illegal immigration," said Diana Hull, president of Californians for Population Stabilization (CAPS). "Overcrowded hospitals, underperforming schools, traffic congestion, and never-ending sprawl are all fueled by out-of-control immigration."
RE Calif. H.R. H.R. 4437
I've lived here the last 41 years, you've been in your beloved California for 30 of those years. I don't think you are quite as in touch with where Tulsa is these days.
And the Miss Peggy part, I think I just figured out I know who you are and I definitely realize your line of BS is come by quite naturally.
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
quote:
Originally posted by teddy jack eddy
Illegal aliens should be deported immediately. If they are caught in our country a second time, they should be dropped out of a plane over Mexico City without a parachute.
No baby born of an illegal immigrant mother should become an American citizen by being born in America.
The times....they are gonna be changing. Americans are just beginning to wake up to this problem.
No one knows how many illegal aliens are already career criminals when they come into our country.
Had to fix one part of your statement.
How did we get to the point that we wanted people dropped from planes because they came to this country? The hatred for these people is unreal. Is it a problem? Yes. But what are we doing about the companies hiring these people? Most of these people are looking for a better life and we have employers hiring them. Punish the employers who hire illegal aliens and this situation may improve. And then don't complain when the price of building a house, repairing your roof, going to dinner, etc... begins to rise.
Oh come on okie, can't you see it was a joke...yes, i'm sure he's just foaming at the mouth to drop illegals from planes...
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Nothing has brought me closer to packing it in and saying goodbye hometown than the two hateful bills that recently passed our State House and Senate. Anti-immigrant and anti-abortion. I've pumped close to $400,000 thousand into the local economy in the past year and a half and I'm telling you there are other folks out there thinking what I'm thinking: Oklahoma is going too far and there are lots of other places to live.
Please Governor Henry, do the right thing and veto these hateful bills.
There is nothing hateful about those bills.BTW one bill has to do with illegal immigration not immigration and the other bill has to do with tax payer funding of abortion.
Sitting there calling illegal aliens "immigrints" is a insult to every "immigrant".A immigrant is not a criminal, an illegal alien is a criminal,there is a difference between the two.To sit there and lump the two together is completely dishonest.IF you want illegals to continue ****ting on our sovereignty and immigration laws and to receive US tax payer funded benefits just say so,do not lie and try to make this issue something that it is not.
Denying tax payer money for abortion is not anti-abortion.It is saying if you want a abortion pay for it yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Oh come on okie, can't you see it was a joke...yes, i'm sure he's just foaming at the mouth to drop illegals from planes...
No...no...really. I have a plane warming up at Jones as we speak.
;)
quote:
Originally posted by okiebybirth
And then don't complain when the price of building a house, repairing your roof, going to dinner, etc... begins to rise.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_imprices19.html
More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.
You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices — call it the "illegal-worker discount" — is surprisingly small.
The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.
The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor — whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born — represents only a sliver of the retail price.
Consider those apples — Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.
At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.
Meh. Tulsa's on a downhill slide and has been for years now, and the responses in this thread are a good example of why businesses and industries simply aren't interested in coming here. The old thanks, but no thanks.
I mean, really. Who wants to live in a poor imitation of Dallas surrounded by bigotry and ignorance and attitudes 100 years dead in most places? And so, while in the 90's, Tulsa began gaining population, it's now losing it.
Wow. Wonder why.
So what was once a pretty little city filled with all kinds of people has become a vast sprawling place of comfort for those too afraid to take a good look in the mirror and see what's really there.
As for what's happening in this thread, eh, typical. I've seen it go on on forums for years now. Whenever someone posts something that goes against the Limbaugh mindset, they get swarmed and called nasty names, even vaguely threatened, as the one post saying "oh I know who you are!" Yeesh.
Pretty sad. Then again, the towns which are really beginning to attract good attention, thanks to the ignorance of a few, don't mind a bit. So these days, Muskogee is turning out to be a heck of a lot more interesting and liveable than Tulsa. Just ask some of the transplants. And Arkansas has left us in the dust economically - hm.
But maybe one day some of you will wake up and realize the Eisenhower years were a long time ago and Ozzie and Harriet were just a television show. And in the world today, it isn't just white dudes who have rights. Except, of course, in Tulsa.
Damn the whole world's not white? Eeeek! Run for the hills. [xx(]
Well, lemme jist go git my spectacles so I kin read up them thar fancy words you giveded us. Aww, what's the use...I beez too dumb and backwoods to learnt anything new nohow.
You're spot on. We just love threatening one another...you haven't been around here very long have you?
and Muskogee...[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by cecelia
As for what's happening in this thread, eh, typical. I've seen it go on on forums for years now. Whenever someone posts something that goes against the Limbaugh mindset, they get swarmed and called nasty names, even vaguely threatened, as the one post saying "oh I know who you are!" Yeesh.
The "Political Arena" of this particular Forum is largely reserved for those who generally have no other business being here, than to be completely obnoxious.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by cecelia
As for what's happening in this thread, eh, typical. I've seen it go on on forums for years now. Whenever someone posts something that goes against the Limbaugh mindset, they get swarmed and called nasty names, even vaguely threatened, as the one post saying "oh I know who you are!" Yeesh.
The "Political Arena" of this particular Forum is largely reserved for those who generally have no other business being here, than to be completely obnoxious.
Hence your presence here.[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Oh come on okie, can't you see it was a joke...yes, i'm sure he's just foaming at the mouth to drop illegals from planes...
Of course I know he isn't dropping people from planes, but how does the dislike rise to the level of even thinking a joke like that is funny?
Because people are exasperated at the current state of events and it's easier to laugh than cry at it. I thought you libruls were supposed to be the free speech lovin' type...
quote:
Originally posted by cecelia
Meh. Tulsa's on a downhill slide and has been for years now, and the responses in this thread are a good example of why businesses and industries simply aren't interested in coming here. The old thanks, but no thanks.
I mean, really. Who wants to live in a poor imitation of Dallas surrounded by bigotry and ignorance and attitudes 100 years dead in most places? And so, while in the 90's, Tulsa began gaining population, it's now losing it.
Wow. Wonder why.
So what was once a pretty little city filled with all kinds of people has become a vast sprawling place of comfort for those too afraid to take a good look in the mirror and see what's really there.
As for what's happening in this thread, eh, typical. I've seen it go on on forums for years now. Whenever someone posts something that goes against the Limbaugh mindset, they get swarmed and called nasty names, even vaguely threatened, as the one post saying "oh I know who you are!" Yeesh.
Pretty sad. Then again, the towns which are really beginning to attract good attention, thanks to the ignorance of a few, don't mind a bit. So these days, Muskogee is turning out to be a heck of a lot more interesting and liveable than Tulsa. Just ask some of the transplants. And Arkansas has left us in the dust economically - hm.
But maybe one day some of you will wake up and realize the Eisenhower years were a long time ago and Ozzie and Harriet were just a television show. And in the world today, it isn't just white dudes who have rights. Except, of course, in Tulsa.
well hey, everyone has to find their place somewhere. Maybe all the bigoted tech companies that cant stand the left coast will move here. Then we can have one big high paying bigoted industry. White dudes unite!
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by cecelia
As for what's happening in this thread, eh, typical. I've seen it go on on forums for years now. Whenever someone posts something that goes against the Limbaugh mindset, they get swarmed and called nasty names, even vaguely threatened, as the one post saying "oh I know who you are!" Yeesh.
The "Political Arena" of this particular Forum is largely reserved for those who generally have no other business being here, than to be completely obnoxious.
Hence your presence here.[;)]
IP, don't you recognize Cecilia's prose? Give you a hint, gotta be someone else who has posted on this thread and been thoroughly shot-down.
Cecelia:
I'm afraid you have some of your facts wrong. You boldly stated that Arkansas is leaving Oklahoma in the economic dust. In particular, Tulsa.
However, a quick 1 minute search yielded census bureau statistics proving otherwise:
Arkansas total personal income: $78,521,372
Oklahoma total personal income: $115,287,512
Oklahoman's make a total of nearly $37,000,000.00 more per year. On a per capita basis (2,775,708 and 3,543,442 respectively) that yeilds:
Arkansas: $26,681
Oklahoma: $29,998
A difference of $3,317.00 in the pocket of every man, woman, and child in Oklahoma each year. Or $11,277.80 for the average family of 3.4. I'd have to say that is pretty convincing that Oklahoma beats the hell out of our neighbor to the East economically speaking. On top of that, Tulsa is above the average in Oklahoma.
So I'm afraid you have been GROSSLY misinformed.
Why do people still spout out BS, dont they realize on the internet you can actually look things like that up in a matter of seconds?
How the hell did we get off on this track? Anyway, per business in Tulsa this is rather disturbing:
Last year we ranked #43 (respectable) on Forbes list and this year we have dropped to #135.
2006
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/1/2813.html
2007
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/1/07bestplaces_Tulsa-OK_2813.html
Basically, we were an under developed area after several really tough years and the cost of doing business was way down (labor & buildings). Now that we have rebounded to full employment and occupancies are stable the cost of doing business has gone back up. Good news, bad news in that light.
Also, lack of a 4 year state school really hurts us on the education-o-meter. Interesting things to look at, compare, and try to figure out where the #s come from.
Also worth noting that mediocrity in many areas gets you high in the rankings:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/1/07bestplaces_Des-Moines-IA_2856.html
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Cecelia:
I'm afraid you have some of your facts wrong. You boldly stated that Arkansas is leaving Oklahoma in the economic dust. In particular, Tulsa.
However, a quick 1 minute search yielded census bureau statistics proving otherwise:
Arkansas total personal income: $78,521,372
Oklahoma total personal income: $115,287,512
Oklahoman's make a total of nearly $37,000,000.00 more per year. On a per capita basis (2,775,708 and 3,543,442 respectively) that yeilds:
Arkansas: $26,681
Oklahoma: $29,998
A difference of $3,317.00 in the pocket of every man, woman, and child in Oklahoma each year. Or $11,277.80 for the average family of 3.4. I'd have to say that is pretty convincing that Oklahoma beats the hell out of our neighbor to the East economically speaking. On top of that, Tulsa is above the average in Oklahoma.
So I'm afraid you have been GROSSLY misinformed.
Why do people still spout out BS, dont they realize on the internet you can actually look things like that up in a matter of seconds?
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Cecelia:
I'm afraid you have some of your facts wrong. You boldly stated that Arkansas is leaving Oklahoma in the economic dust. In particular, Tulsa.
However, a quick 1 minute search yielded census bureau statistics proving otherwise:
Arkansas total personal income: $78,521,372
Oklahoma total personal income: $115,287,512
Oklahoman's make a total of nearly $37,000,000.00 more per year. On a per capita basis (2,775,708 and 3,543,442 respectively) that yeilds:
Arkansas: $26,681
Oklahoma: $29,998
A difference of $3,317.00 in the pocket of every man, woman, and child in Oklahoma each year. Or $11,277.80 for the average family of 3.4. I'd have to say that is pretty convincing that Oklahoma beats the hell out of our neighbor to the East economically speaking. On top of that, Tulsa is above the average in Oklahoma.
So I'm afraid you have been GROSSLY misinformed.
Why do people still spout out BS, dont they realize on the internet you can actually look things like that up in a matter of seconds?
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson
CF- you might have been just as well to address that to HT. I have a feeling they know each other. [:P]
Gather round my little Republican friends. Today we are going to learn something.
Okies were the illegals of their day. Did you know it was illegal to move from Oklahoma to California during the dust bowl days? California had a law on the books that prevented an Oklahoman from becoming a resident there. Okies would establish residency in another state to gain entry to California.
Okay, let's look at what happened to prop was it 187 in California. Rivaled any hateful thing Oklahoma has done. It passed back in the 90s. It denied emergency treatment and school. The California Supreme Court threw it out. But before that the cities refused to enforce it.
Now I'm going to tell you a funny and true story.
My partner is a chef at a local restaurant. They advertised for dish washer. First day. Not one call. Not one applicant. Second day. A small Latin woman shows up and applies. No one else shows up. Third day. They hire the Latina. Like everyone else she is required to produce documents establishing her right to be here (it's the law). She speaks no English. The Fourth day. My partner is speaking Spanish to her to instruct her about her duties. The manager of the restaurant brings a company policy book into the kitchen and points to the highlighted section that says the company has an English only policy.
Now there is sort of a Zen moment here. We are witnessing profound stupidity.
I drive around town and guess who's doing the yard work, the construction, the roadwork, the deliveries, repairing the cars, selling you goods and buying the cars and buying the houses.
Now Latinos are the epitome of the American dream. These people are go getters that know how to work. And they are Christian and they are family orientated, they get married and they are having babies. And their marriages work.
You guys can rattle all you want. We are witnessing the Browning of the U.S. It's been written about for decades. Take a trip to Miami to see what a city run by Latinos look like. Go to our two greatest urban areas – New York and Los Angeles – and you will see that today they are Latin cities.
You are walking in at the end of a story that has already been told. It's over with. No matter what you p*** a*** do – you have already lost the battle.
Okay, kiddies. Sleep tight and tune in tomorrow for more fun with Hometown.
post script. In case you were having such a good time that you missed it, Henry vetoed the anti-abortion bill.
Sounds like a chain....Blech......
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Gather round my little Republican friends. Today we are going to learn something.
Okies were the illegals of their day. Did you know it was illegal to move from Oklahoma to California during the dust bowl days? California had a law on the books that prevented an Oklahoman from becoming a resident there. Okies would establish residency in another state to gain entry to California.
Okay, let�s look at what happened to prop was it 187 in California. Rivaled any hateful thing Oklahoma has done. It passed back in the 90s. It denied emergency treatment and school. The California Supreme Court threw it out. But before that the cities refused to enforce it.
Now I�m going to tell you a funny and true story.
My partner is a chef at a local restaurant. They advertised for dish washer. First day. Not one call. Not one applicant. Second day. A small Latin woman shows up and applies. No one else shows up. Third day. They hire the Latina. Like everyone else she is required to produce documents establishing her right to be here (it�s the law). She speaks no English. The Fourth day. My partner is speaking Spanish to her to instruct her about her duties. The manager of the restaurant brings a company policy book into the kitchen and points to the highlighted section that says the company has an English only policy.
Now there is sort of a Zen moment here. We are witnessing profound stupidity.
I drive around town and guess who�s doing the yard work, the construction, the roadwork, the deliveries, repairing the cars, selling you goods and buying the cars and buying the houses.
Now Latinos are the epitome of the American dream. These people are go getters that know how to work. And they are Christian and they are family orientated, they get married and they are having babies. And their marriages work.
You guys can rattle all you want. We are witnessing the Browning of the U.S. It�s been written about for decades. Take a trip to Miami to see what a city run by Latinos look like. Go to our two greatest urban areas � New York and Los Angeles � and you will see that today they are Latin cities.
You are walking in at the end of a story that has already been told. It�s over with. No matter what you p*** a*** do � you have already lost the battle.
Okay, kiddies. Sleep tight and tune in tomorrow for more fun with Hometown.
post script. In case you were having such a good time that you missed it, Henry vetoed the anti-abortion bill.
I have never heard it described in quite this way....
Very refreshing..!
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Gather round my little Republican friends. Today we are going to learn something.
Okies were the illegals of their day. Did you know it was illegal to move from Oklahoma to California during the dust bowl days? California had a law on the books that prevented an Oklahoman from becoming a resident there. Okies would establish residency in another state to gain entry to California.
Okay, let's look at what happened to prop was it 187 in California. Rivaled any hateful thing Oklahoma has done. It passed back in the 90s. It denied emergency treatment and school. The California Supreme Court threw it out. But before that the cities refused to enforce it.
Now I'm going to tell you a funny and true story.
My partner is a chef at a local restaurant. They advertised for dish washer. First day. Not one call. Not one applicant. Second day. A small Latin woman shows up and applies. No one else shows up. Third day. They hire the Latina. Like everyone else she is required to produce documents establishing her right to be here (it's the law). She speaks no English. The Fourth day. My partner is speaking Spanish to her to instruct her about her duties. The manager of the restaurant brings a company policy book into the kitchen and points to the highlighted section that says the company has an English only policy.
Now there is sort of a Zen moment here. We are witnessing profound stupidity.
I drive around town and guess who's doing the yard work, the construction, the roadwork, the deliveries, repairing the cars, selling you goods and buying the cars and buying the houses.
Now Latinos are the epitome of the American dream. These people are go getters that know how to work. And they are Christian and they are family orientated, they get married and they are having babies. And their marriages work.
You guys can rattle all you want. We are witnessing the Browning of the U.S. It's been written about for decades. Take a trip to Miami to see what a city run by Latinos look like. Go to our two greatest urban areas – New York and Los Angeles – and you will see that today they are Latin cities.
You are walking in at the end of a story that has already been told. It's over with. No matter what you p*** a*** do – you have already lost the battle.
Okay, kiddies. Sleep tight and tune in tomorrow for more fun with Hometown.
post script. In case you were having such a good time that you missed it, Henry vetoed the anti-abortion bill.
Did you know that Oklahomans were legal U.S. citizens during the dust bowl days?
Did you know that you are in Oklahoma and we don't really care what the California courts have done. Did you know the 9th circuit is the most over-turned appeals court in the land. FYI, we're in the 10th circuit.
I see legal immigrants chasing the American dream.
I see illegal immigrants stealing our resources, cheating our country and laughing at our laws.
As far as your observations, I guess you have a rather small area to drive around in or maybe you just spend alot of time in your own fantasy world. I see people of all races "doing the yard work, the construction, the roadwork, the deliveries, repairing the cars, selling you goods and buying the cars and buying the houses."
By the way, what is the color of the sky in your world?
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Gather round my little Republican friends. Today we are going to learn something.
What, that you're a crackpot? We already knew that.
quote:
Now I'm going to tell you a funny and true story.
Oh boy, I bet it has the word hate somewhere in it.
quote:
My partner is a chef at a local restaurant. They advertised for dish washer. First day. Not one call. Not one applicant. Second day. A small Latin woman shows up and applies. No one else shows up. Third day. They hire the Latina. Like everyone else she is required to produce documents establishing her right to be here (it's the law). She speaks no English. The Fourth day. My partner is speaking Spanish to her to instruct her about her duties. The manager of the restaurant brings a company policy book into the kitchen and points to the highlighted section that says the company has an English only policy.
This story sucks, I'm bored already. When are you going to say hate...
quote:
Now there is sort of a Zen moment here. We are witnessing profound stupidity.
Yes...yes we are. Every time you post.
quote:
I drive around town and guess who's doing the yard work, the construction, the roadwork, the deliveries, repairing the cars, selling you goods and buying the cars and buying the houses.
Lemme guess, bears in three piece suits with funny hats and bowties that spin who smoke cuban cigars?
quote:
Now Latinos are the epitome of the American dream. These people are go getters that know how to work. And they are Christian and they are family orientated, they get married and they are having babies. And their marriages work.
Yes. The legal ones most definitely are and I welcome them.
quote:
You guys can rattle all you want. We are witnessing the Browning of the U.S.
Is that a poop joke? Geez that's low brow.
quote:
It's been written about for decades. Take a trip to Miami to see what a city run by Latinos look like. Go to our two greatest urban areas – New York and Los Angeles – and you will see that today they are Latin cities.
Now I've heard it all. New York is a latin city.
quote:
You are walking in at the end of a story that has already been told. It's over with. No matter what you p*** a*** do – you have already lost the battle.
Lost what battle? To whom?
quote:
Okay, kiddies. Sleep tight and tune in tomorrow for more fun with Hometown.
This show sucks, I've already changed the station.
HT-
Do you want selective enforcement of the laws or do you care if we flaunt all the laws? How about someone moving in and turning the house next to your little 1920's oasis into a crack house or meth lab? Are you saying you wouldn't want those laws enforced?
Hey, they got a right to make a living, most likely they will be a minority. They got rights to our emergency rooms, police protection when a some crack-head shows up with a gun, food stamps since no one can trace any sort of employment to them, free abortions, and since they are working in an all cash business, they shouldn't have to pay any taxes.
For some reason you are under the hallucination that Republicans hate immigrants. You are in a small minority in this country, even amongst your Democrat bretheren.
I don't know anyone that tells lazy Mexican jokes anymore. They've proven they are hard workers doing jobs most white-bread Americans won't do. Yes, they are family people, yes they are devoutly Christian. The ones who did not immigrate through our LAWFUL immigration channels are ILLEGALLY here and are committing FRAUD. They are free-loading off government programs which takes funds away which could help those here legally on visas and our native-born and naturalized citizens for whom these programs are designed to help.
The ones who have immigrated legally and are working toward naturalization or here on valid work visas, I applaud. The ones who aren't I abhor.
People streaming over the border willing to work for lower wages helps lower the standard of the wages you work for. You B!tch louder than anyone else on this forum about how crappy your wages are and yet you don't see how people willing to work for less de-values your own wages.
Oh and another thing. What do you think all these devoutly religious, Catholic people will think about your other pet political issue, gay marriages?
Are you going to turn around and call them hateful for not seeing eye-to-eye with you, because I can guarantee you, they won't.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Oh and another thing. What do you think all these devoutly religious, Catholic people will think about your other pet political issue, gay marriages?
Are you going to turn around and call them hateful for not seeing eye-to-eye with you, because I can guarantee you, they won't.
...and abortion???? Not even an option to devout Catholics.
Here's HT's new neighbor:
(http://www.cypressfilms.com/Evenhand/pics/crack_house1.jpg)
(http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2005/113-9/methlab.jpg)
Isn't that the house from the Munsters?
To all parties involved:
So what's the solution?
I do no believe most people immigrate to this country for low grade government benefits (legally or otherwise). As I explained above most people come to try for a better life. The USA has immigration laws that severely restrict the numbers of immigrants allowed for even highly skilled positions that our industry is starved for (anything to do with math and science basically). Our numbers for unskilled low wage jobs are even more lop sided (but I still think the denial of skilled workers is far more perplexing).
1) Does anyone think this bill will have a significant impact on illegal immigration to Oklahoma?
2) What do you think is the primary cause of illegal immigration?
3) How do we stop it?
I answer no, it will not have an effect. I think the primary cause is poverty in Latin America and economic freedom in the USA. The solution is economic development in the South and worker programs in the North coupled with real border enforcement. If people who want to work have a way of coming in legally, they will. And the border patrol will be able to better do its job of protecting our border instead of being forced to round up flat broke unskilled laborers illegally crossing our deserts over and over and over again.
Everyone is dancing around the issue and spouting our circumstantial or anecdotal evidence to support their varying views, WITHOUT identifying the cause of the problem or any possible solutions.
/steps off his soap box
quote:
The solution is economic development in the South and worker programs in the North coupled with real border enforcement.
I don't think anyone could argue with this, other than HT, who wants complete and unfettered access to America by anyone who can gimp cross our borders.
Let's not trample all over why people immigrate again.
But, I will dispute two points though: sneaking across the border and having a child in a U.S. hospital who automatically becomes a U.S. citizen, is hardly low-grade benefits.
Second, unless something has changed since I was in college, campuses across the country have many legal immigrants here learning math and sciences who eventually go on to take high-skilled or high-tech jobs. The people who are coming from the south are not exactly looking for IT work.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Isn't that the house from the Munsters?
No. That'll be the White House in another 20 years w/o immigration reform.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
To all parties involved:
So what's the solution?
I do no believe most people immigrate to this country for low grade government benefits (legally or otherwise). As I explained above most people come to try for a better life. The USA has immigration laws that severely restrict the numbers of immigrants allowed for even highly skilled positions that our industry is starved for (anything to do with math and science basically). Our numbers for unskilled low wage jobs are even more lop sided (but I still think the denial of skilled workers is far more perplexing).
1) Does anyone think this bill will have a significant impact on illegal immigration to Oklahoma?
2) What do you think is the primary cause of illegal immigration?
3) How do we stop it?
I answer no, it will not have an effect. I think the primary cause is poverty in Latin America and economic freedom in the USA. The solution is economic development in the South and worker programs in the North coupled with real border enforcement. If people who want to work have a way of coming in legally, they will. And the border patrol will be able to better do its job of protecting our border instead of being forced to round up flat broke unskilled laborers illegally crossing our deserts over and over and over again.
Everyone is dancing around the issue and spouting our circumstantial or anecdotal evidence to support their varying views, WITHOUT identifying the cause of the problem or any possible solutions.
/steps off his soap box
The root causes of the illegal immigration problem are the economic disparity in Mexico brought on by a corrupt government, and our (increasingly) corrupt government that doesn't want to enforce the laws already on the books. If employers that hire illegal aliens were routinely fined and even imprisoned the major draw for people coming here illegally to work would be taken away. And there should be some kind of option for those wanting to come here and work to do so, legally. But granting amnesty to the 12-20 million who are here will not work; we saw what happened in the 80s when we tried that. To those that want to come here legally and abide by our laws/integrate into our culture - I welcome them.
No, the immigration from the South is not comprised of mostly educated people. I was trying to illustrate the problem with the immigration system as a whole. Denying immigrants from Europe, India and the rest of Asia who are highly skilled in areas we need.
Hell, I graduated with people from TU law who couldnt get work Visa's to legally stay in the United States.
As did I, and I think we might know some of the same people. I have a good friend that's from South Africa who has been here for 10 years and almost got the boot about 6 months ago because they "ran out" of work visas.
A bar registered attorney who can't get citizenship...
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
To all parties involved:
So what's the solution?
I do no believe most people immigrate to this country for low grade government benefits (legally or otherwise). As I explained above most people come to try for a better life. The USA has immigration laws that severely restrict the numbers of immigrants allowed for even highly skilled positions that our industry is starved for (anything to do with math and science basically). Our numbers for unskilled low wage jobs are even more lop sided (but I still think the denial of skilled workers is far more perplexing).
1) Does anyone think this bill will have a significant impact on illegal immigration to Oklahoma?
2) What do you think is the primary cause of illegal immigration?
3) How do we stop it?
I answer no, it will not have an effect. I think the primary cause is poverty in Latin America and economic freedom in the USA. The solution is economic development in the South and worker programs in the North coupled with real border enforcement. If people who want to work have a way of coming in legally, they will. And the border patrol will be able to better do its job of protecting our border instead of being forced to round up flat broke unskilled laborers illegally crossing our deserts over and over and over again.
Everyone is dancing around the issue and spouting our circumstantial or anecdotal evidence to support their varying views, WITHOUT identifying the cause of the problem or any possible solutions.
/steps off his soap box
The root causes of the illegal immigration problem are the economic disparity in Mexico brought on by a corrupt government, and our (increasingly) corrupt government that doesn't want to enforce the laws already on the books. If employers that hire illegal aliens were routinely fined and even imprisoned the major draw for people coming here illegally to work would be taken away. And there should be some kind of option for those wanting to come here and work to do so, legally. But granting amnesty to the 12-20 million who are here will not work; we saw what happened in the 80s when we tried that. To those that want to come here legally and abide by our laws/integrate into our culture - I welcome them.
TFIT- You are on the same page with a lot of us on the issue.
I'm for a 90-day compliance with getting on the road to naturalization, to go through the same channel every other naturalized citizen has gone through, nothing less. It's essentially amnesty though I hate that term.
What would be the solution you have in mind as to what to do with the 12-20mm already here? Not trying to start a flame out at all, just wanting to hear if there is another workable solution we haven't already discussed here.
No flame out at all - that's a perfectly legitimate question. My opinion is that they would go back home, at least most of them. Most of the illegal immigrants are not here for love of this country, they are here to support their families in any way they can. When the available work dries up, they can go back home the way they came. I seriously doubt you'll see millions of illegal homeless on the streets as a result because let's face it - many of them are indeed hard workers and do have values (usually family first). I would actually not have a huge problem if there were some kind of naturalization plan that started these people on a legal path - after weeding out the bad seeds. But, that is where the line would have to be drawn - no more lax laws on illegal immigration after that - and enforcement of the laws to where this doesn't happen again. I don't see our government doing that because look what happened the last time. One more thing; if we were to grant amnesty (which is essentially what it is) to the 12-20 million illegals here now, we would need to set up some kind of restriction on family members coming in as well. I certainly don't think it would be just to let only workers stay and wives/kids be sent back, but in-laws, uncles, aunts, no - they need to stay in Mexico and try to come into this country legally.
All hail Jorgen and Vahagn (Vaughn).
Something needs to change. I hope we all agree on that.
I think there's definitely a compromise available.
Check out this poll released yesterday.
WASHINGTON — While Congress and the White House remain divided over what to do with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants living in the USA, a new poll shows the American public appears to have reached a consensus on the question.
A USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken last weekend found that 78% of respondents feel people now in the country illegally should be given a chance at citizenship.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-18-illegal-immigrants_N.htm?csp=34
So the deportation crowd is way out of touch on this issue.
Really, though, I'm amazed at that 78 percent number. Give credit to the American people for their pragmatism.
BTW, I don't agree with everything Hometown says about this issue, but he is correct in that Okies were expressly forbidden from entering some parts of California during the Depression. I've done a lot of reading over the years about the history of Route 66 and the Dust Bowl, and these horrible acts are well-documented.
I would think that "given a chance at citizenship" would not be the same as immediate and uncontested amnesty...I'm for giving them a chance at citizenship.
...so people like HT and others are out of touch as well...
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
No flame out at all - that's a perfectly legitimate question. My opinion is that they would go back home, at least most of them. Most of the illegal immigrants are not here for love of this country, they are here to support their families in any way they can. When the available work dries up, they can go back home the way they came. I seriously doubt you'll see millions of illegal homeless on the streets as a result because let's face it - many of them are indeed hard workers and do have values (usually family first). I would actually not have a huge problem if there were some kind of naturalization plan that started these people on a legal path - after weeding out the bad seeds. But, that is where the line would have to be drawn - no more lax laws on illegal immigration after that - and enforcement of the laws to where this doesn't happen again. I don't see our government doing that because look what happened the last time. One more thing; if we were to grant amnesty (which is essentially what it is) to the 12-20 million illegals here now, we would need to set up some kind of restriction on family members coming in as well. I certainly don't think it would be just to let only workers stay and wives/kids be sent back, but in-laws, uncles, aunts, no - they need to stay in Mexico and try to come into this country legally.
Call it the weed & seed program [;)]
I looked for it, but I think the last useful post we had on the immigration issue got deleted because one of the children on this board started up with his childish rants, taunts, and nonsense and the rest of us kids gave him a swirlie. [:P]
There were some good thoughts on it. I don't believe the millions of homeless myth either. However, there are a lot of un-documented aliens working in agriculture, service, and production that it would cripple a decent segment of the economy if we just rounded them up and sent them back. I kid you not, there would be a sudden scarcity of many food items, clothing, and other consumer goods.
I agree that there should be no carte blanche for the rest of the family to enter the country- that makes zero sense, and I agree that spouses and kids should not be separated from the bread-winner. I also don't believe that children born to aliens here should become citizens unless/until their parents are naturalized.
Quick summary of my ideas on it:
-The border has got to be sealed from the Pacific ocean to the Gulf Coast first.
-Crack down on bogus ID mills
-Make employers responsible for compliance of their workers in getting on the path to naturalization. Also tie in a new law for the amount of exemptions all American workers can legally claim on their W-4 and require proof of dependents to justify exemptions. (This is a major area where the gov't and rest of the taxpayers get ripped-off even by the hard working illegals.) That way, if they don't file a 1040, the gov't doesn't get short-changed.
-The individual or employer is responsible for every penny of the cost to get naturalized. They have 90 days to get documented. Those who don't compy- boot 'em out starting on the 91st day. Weed out the bad ones, no shot at citizenship- immediate deportation.
-No short-cuts to naturalization, with the exception of shortening the time for immediate families of those who elect to serve in the military, but still impose the same moral and language requirements as are expected of all other immigrants. Aliens in the military already enjoy an expedited path to citizenship.
I can see a lot of your points Conan, and agree with most if not all. I don't have a problem with reasoned and intellectual discussions on the issue; it's not all black and white. What infuriates me is comments from some on this forum (like HT) saying that if you're against illegal immigration you're racist, out of touch, Ozzie and Harriot throwbacks, and on and on and on. Then, the intentional inflammatory remarks to incite some kind of culture war with "you lose," "the browning of the country," and so on.
Statements like these are meant to divide, and aren't about reasonable and responsible debate on what to do about something that needs to be addressed. HT wants to turn a blind eye and let the anarchy continue.
My biggest problem is what we would do after providing this path to citizenship - we CANNOT simply continue to have an unsecured border and permit this kind of thing to go on anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I think there's definitely a compromise available.
Check out this poll released yesterday.
WASHINGTON — While Congress and the White House remain divided over what to do with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants living in the USA, a new poll shows the American public appears to have reached a consensus on the question.
A USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken last weekend found that 78% of respondents feel people now in the country illegally should be given a chance at citizenship.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-04-18-illegal-immigrants_N.htm?csp=34
So the deportation crowd is way out of touch on this issue.
Really, though, I'm amazed at that 78 percent number. Give credit to the American people for their pragmatism.
BTW, I don't agree with everything Hometown says about this issue, but he is correct in that Okies were expressly forbidden from entering some parts of California during the Depression. I've done a lot of reading over the years about the history of Route 66 and the Dust Bowl, and these horrible acts are well-documented.
Those numbers are a little higher than I would have expected too. I think you hit the nail on the head on the pragmatism. I believe enough people now realize that there are important parts of the economy served by people who are already here and realize the crime rate amongst latinos isn't significantly different per capita than in any other racial or ethnic segment in U.S. society.
HT's statement is avacados and grapes far as I'm concerned. Californians were trying to protect jobs and preserve services for their own residents from other U.S. citizens which was wrong, though understandable looking back at the state of the economy in the depression.
Oklahoma's law is not aimed at legal immigrants nor U.S. citizens and is hardly xenophobic. There are plenty of jobs available for legal immigrant workers right now, considering we are at full employment in the state and most parts of the country.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
I can see a lot of your points Conan, and agree with most if not all. I don't have a problem with reasoned and intellectual discussions on the issue; it's not all black and white. What infuriates me is comments from some on this forum (like HT) saying that if you're against illegal immigration you're racist, out of touch, Ozzie and Harriot throwbacks, and on and on and on. Then, the intentional inflammatory remarks to incite some kind of culture war with "you lose," "the browning of the country," and so on.
Statements like these are meant to divide, and aren't about reasonable and responsible debate on what to do about something that needs to be addressed. HT wants to turn a blind eye and let the anarchy continue.
My biggest problem is what we would do after providing this path to citizenship - we CANNOT simply continue to have an unsecured border and permit this kind of thing to go on anymore.
Far as I'm concerned, nothing more should happen until the border is sealed. There would be an onslaught of illegals coming in if we don't seal the border first.
Perhaps we could issue guest worker visas to A bunch of these people to help build the wall so we can get it done quicker. [;)]
If we don't get on this now, 20 or 30 years down the road, we are going to be facing a government near bankruptcy, be overrun with even more low-end jobs while higher tech flourishes overseas, and those out of touch with reality on the issue now (HT) will be spouting nonsense like: "That George Bush really ruined America by not clamping down on illegal immigrants." [B)]
HEY HOMETOWN!!!!
You use in your example the advantage of cheap labor. Guess what? If we make all of these criminals legal, THE CHEAP LABOR WILL DISSAPEAR!
If you get your way, you lose the very thing that you are now enjoying.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
I can see a lot of your points Conan, and agree with most if not all. I don't have a problem with reasoned and intellectual discussions on the issue; it's not all black and white. What infuriates me is comments from some on this forum (like HT) saying that if you're against illegal immigration you're racist, out of touch, Ozzie and Harriot throwbacks, and on and on and on. Then, the intentional inflammatory remarks to incite some kind of culture war with "you lose," "the browning of the country," and so on.
Statements like these are meant to divide, and aren't about reasonable and responsible debate on what to do about something that needs to be addressed. HT wants to turn a blind eye and let the anarchy continue.
My biggest problem is what we would do after providing this path to citizenship - we CANNOT simply continue to have an unsecured border and permit this kind of thing to go on anymore.
Far as I'm concerned, nothing more should happen until the border is sealed. There would be an onslaught of illegals coming in if we don't seal the border first.
Perhaps we could issue guest worker visas to A bunch of these people to help build the wall so we can get it done quicker. [;)]
If we don't get on this now, 20 or 30 years down the road, we are going to be facing a government near bankruptcy, be overrun with even more low-end jobs while higher tech flourishes overseas, and those out of touch with reality on the issue now (HT) will be spouting nonsense like: "That George Bush really ruined America by not clamping down on illegal immigrants." [B)]
You can't blame Dubya for this one. We turned a blind eye to it for years in this country, and let them come in to work the jobs we did not want to do. I can remember watching it happen when I used to go to Dallas in the 70' with my parents and then in the 80's and 90's when I would take trips there. It wasn't until the last few years that it has come to the forefront that we have a border problem and now we need to fix it. Arizona has passed laws that you are refering to in the last couple of years and there has been a backlash from the illegals about being denied instate tuition.
We need a guest worker program that works, and an immigration plan that works for those who want to come here to become citizens. As for the illegals already here, they need a path to getting citizenship if thats what they want, if not then they can be a guest worker for a period of time, and if not thatthen shown the door and told to go home.
And I really agree that we need to close the border before starting anything. Fortunattely with the tightened security on the border now we are having fewer arrests on the border and hopefully this summer won't be filled with news on how many bodies have been found in the desert so far this year.
quote:
Far as I'm concerned, nothing more should happen until the border is sealed. There would be an onslaught of illegals coming in if we don't seal the border first.
Perhaps we could issue guest worker visas to A bunch of these people to help build the wall so we can get it done quicker. [;)]
If we don't get on this now, 20 or 30 years down the road, we are going to be facing a government near bankruptcy, be overrun with even more low-end jobs while higher tech flourishes overseas, and those out of touch with reality on the issue now (HT) will be spouting nonsense like: "That George Bush really ruined America by not clamping down on illegal immigrants." [B)]
Agreed. And Lilmikey is right. That "cheap labor" that so enthralls people such as HT will no longer be cheap once these people are legal. And rightfully so; in my opinion, many of them are being exploited anyway.
Cheers,
Expanding Guest Worker Programâ€"a No Winner for Immigrants or the Nation
by James Parks, Apr 10, 2007
In today’s Los Angeles Times, AFL-CIO President John Sweeney and Pablo Alvarado, executive director of the National Day Laborer Organizing Network, describe how temporary worker programs will negatively impact immigrant workersâ€"and the nation.
Those programs
will assure a steady flow of cheap labor from essentially indentured workers too afraid of being deported to protest substandard wages, chiseled benefits and unsafe working conditions.
Such a system will create a disenfranchised underclass of workers. That is not only morally indefensible, it is economically nonsensical. We’ve had plenty of bad experiences with such shortsighted answers to a complicated problem.
The H-2A and H-2B visa programs bring in agricultural and other seasonal workers to pick crops, build houses and process seafood, among other jobs. Sweeney and Alvarado point out that workers in these programs typically borrow large amounts of money to pay travel expenses, fees and sometimes bribes to recruiters.
That means that before they even begin to work, they are indebted. They leave their families at home, and they are essentially “bound� to employers who can send them home on a whim and who do not have to prove a need to hire them in the first place.
A new study by the Southern Poverty Law Center, Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States, relates that it is not unusual for a Guatemalan worker to pay more than $2,500 in fees to obtain a seasonal guest worker position, about a year’s worth of income in Guatemala. And Thai workers have been known to pay as much as $10,000 for the chance to harvest crops in the orchards of the Pacific Northwest. Interest rates on the loans are sometimes as high as 20 percent a month. Homes and vehicles are required collateral.
The workers in these programs also receive little protection, if any. In late March, legislation was introduced to enhance protections for skilled guest workers. For more information on the legislation, click here.
The solution to the immigration crisis will require a new approach, Sweeney and Alvarado say. First, everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship.
Other key reforms should include:
* Employers who can prove that they tried and failed to find U.S. workers should be able to hire foreign workers, but not under abusive conditions that have a negative effect on the wages and working conditions.
* Caps on the number of employment-based visas issued each year should be set by the U.S. Department of Labor based on economic indicators that establish the needs of particular industries, not by political compromise.
* Employers should not be allowed to recruit abroad, a practice that invites bribes, exorbitant fees and potential abuse. Instead, employers should be required to hire from applications filed by workers in their home countries through a computerized job bank.
* Foreign workers should enjoy the same rights and protections as U.S. workers, including freedom to form unions and bargain for a better life.
The solution to the immigration crisis will require a new approach, Sweeney and Alvarado say. First, everyone who is admitted to work must immediately be on a track toward permanent residency or citizenship.
Other key reforms should include:
* Employers who can prove that they tried and failed to find U.S. workers should be able to hire foreign workers, but not under abusive conditions that have a negative effect on the wages and working conditions.
* Caps on the number of employment-based visas issued each year should be set by the U.S. Department of Labor based on economic indicators that establish the needs of particular industries, not by political compromise.
* Employers should not be allowed to recruit abroad, a practice that invites bribes, exorbitant fees and potential abuse. Instead, employers should be required to hire from applications filed by workers in their home countries through a computerized job bank.
* Foreign workers should enjoy the same rights and protections as U.S. workers, including freedom to form unions and bargain for a better life.
Thank you for that info. Thats the way it should be.
OK, everyone, here's a serious question:
Would you trade ending the war in Iraq and using the money instead to seal the Mexican border and thus get a better handle on illegal immigration and terrorism security at the border?
I'm genuinely curious to see whether this is an idea that could fly.
hold on a minute.....let me get this straight. Hometown thinks these laws are wrong because it will cost us cheap labor? That is the most supremisist and insensitive thing I've heard.
MH1020 I would like to respond to you. The legislation would require that police determine nationality of people they detain and that people that are determined to be illegal will be denied bond because they would be considered a flight risk. Given that Oklahoma doesn't want to pay the real cost of enforcing the laws it now has on the books, how do you think your police department would be able to pay for and enforce this new mandate? I'm not asking you to address the moral issue of separating families; I'm asking you to explain how we can pay for this ideology over reality.
California closed the border after the passage of the last immigration reform. It could be done tomorrow. What happened then was that the crops were rotting in the fields and the growers raised a ruckus and people were suddenly able to enter the U.S. again.
Anyone that thinks I'm a proponent of cheap labor gets an F for reading comprehension. It is legislation like that waiting for the governor's signature that drives people into hiding and creates an underground economy and causes a downward pressure on wages.
We have nothing to fear from our Latin neighbors because we share a common cultural background. Spain's Andalusia was known for its tolerance and the harmony of its different races and communities. It saw the flowering of Jewish culture and Christians and Muslims and Jews lived together in peace.
There is definitely a racist subtext to the anti-immigrant argument as our former chief of police pointed. We should be proud of the diversity of our community. It's strength.
Our immigrants give us one of the youngest populations of the Western Industrialized Nations. Their participation has already renewed our communities. We are indebt to the people we are demonizing. But you'll come around, slowly.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Double A you want to have it both ways. One day you want to present yourself as a party regular and the next day you align yourself with the Right Wing Extremists (Minute Men). I have no doubt there are some Democrats in Oklahoma that are at the beginning of a learning curve about immigrants. But the Democrats are in a full fledged fight with the Republicans for the Latin vote. Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are. Now a good Democrat does not align themselves with right wing extremists. I shouldn't have to tell you that.
You are a well off young White who lives in a culture tailor made for you. You enjoy many advantages. It is the responsibility of strong people to extend a hand of help to those who need it. You have somehow missed out the basics of being a gentle person.
In fact, you have a deep seated grudge against Latins. I don't know if some Latin k***** your a** or what but I do know you don't represent the mainstream of party thought.
I happen to think that rewarding criminal behavior like you advocate facilitates a black market economy that is very unhealthy for a civilized society and ultimately devastates it. I consider myself to be pro immigrant because illegal immigration is a slap in the face to legal immigrants.
quote:
Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are.
Latin counties and cultures are the most tolerant of theocracy, corruption, and misogyny in the western hemisphere. When the Democratic party adopts resolutions supporting those things into the platform that qoute might hold water. If you like the way things are in California so much, why did you leave? Ridiculous limosine liberal elitist fascism might be the mainstream of the Democratic Party in Cali, it is not in Oklahoma. Why don't you take your $400,000 twist it up like a California roll, light it on fire, shove it up your a** and flame out all the way back to where you so obviously belong.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
MH1020 I would like to respond to you. The legislation would require that police determine nationality of people they detain and that people that are determined to be illegal will be denied bond because they would be considered a flight risk. Given that Oklahoma doesn't want to pay the real cost of enforcing the laws it now has on the books, how do you think your police department would be able to pay for and enforce this new mandate? I'm not asking you to address the moral issue of separating families; I'm asking you to explain how we can pay for this ideology over reality.
California closed the border after the passage of the last immigration reform. It could be done tomorrow. What happened then was that the crops were rotting in the fields and the growers raised a ruckus and people were suddenly able to enter the U.S. again.
Anyone that thinks I'm a proponent of cheap labor gets an F for reading comprehension. It is legislation like that waiting for the governor's signature that drives people into hiding and creates an underground economy and causes a downward pressure on wages.
We have nothing to fear from our Latin neighbors because we share a common cultural background. Spain's Andalusia was known for its tolerance and the harmony of its different races and communities. It saw the flowering of Jewish culture and Christians and Muslims and Jews lived together in peace.
There is definitely a racist subtext to the anti-immigrant argument as our former chief of police pointed. We should be proud of the diversity of our community. It's strength.
Our immigrants give us one of the youngest populations of the Western Industrialized Nations. Their participation has already renewed our communities. We are indebt to the people we are demonizing. But you'll come around, slowly.
The Tulsa police department does not pay to house people in jail. Tulsa county, State of Oklahoma, or the Federal government pays to house the inmates. Basically, it depends on what the charges are, what their status is, and where they will be going.
As far as deportation goes, I've been involved in the process several times. Basically, when the police arrest an illegal immigrant on felony charges (the most common is a gun charge of some kind.)there are two different processes that can happen. The immigrant could immediately be deported before the charges go to court. So basically, they just go back to whatever country they are from. The other type of deportation, is when the person goes thru the justice system, is found guilty and then serves their time. Upon their release, they are then deported back to their country of origin.
Using the first process, I've seen people be transported to Oklahoma City within two days, have some kind of immigrant status hearing and then transported to Mexico in about 1 week.
The bad part of the process is there is nothing to stop them from coming back to the U.S. Many times a individual will simply change their name, cross the border and move to a different area within the U.S. That is one of the reasons it is so hard to find an illegal immigrants true name and information.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Double A you want to have it both ways. One day you want to present yourself as a party regular and the next day you align yourself with the Right Wing Extremists (Minute Men). I have no doubt there are some Democrats in Oklahoma that are at the beginning of a learning curve about immigrants. But the Democrats are in a full fledged fight with the Republicans for the Latin vote. Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are. Now a good Democrat does not align themselves with right wing extremists. I shouldn't have to tell you that.
You are a well off young White who lives in a culture tailor made for you. You enjoy many advantages. It is the responsibility of strong people to extend a hand of help to those who need it. You have somehow missed out the basics of being a gentle person.
In fact, you have a deep seated grudge against Latins. I don't know if some Latin k***** your a** or what but I do know you don't represent the mainstream of party thought.
I happen to think that rewarding criminal behavior like you advocate facilitates a black market economy that is very unhealthy for a civilized society and ultimately devastates it. I consider myself to be pro immigrant because illegal immigration is a slap in the face to legal immigrants.
quote:
Double A the Latin demographic is more important to our party's future than you are.
Latin counties and cultures are the most tolerant of theocracy, corruption, and misogyny in the western hemisphere. When the Democratic party adopts resolutions supporting those things into the platform that qoute might hold water. If you like the way things are in California so much, why did you leave? Ridiculous limosine liberal elitist fascism might be the mainstream of the Democratic Party in Cali, it is not in Oklahoma. Why don't you take your $400,000 twist it up like a California roll, light it on fire, shove it up your a** and flame out all the way back to where you so obviously belong.
AA, I don't always agree with your posts, but you are a true Oklahoma Democrat, as was my father and you just gave a shining example (HT) of the fantasy-land that some Democrats have tried to create in the Democratic party. Not only that, you make cogent points that sometimes cut to the quick of what my own beliefs are by using logic instead of resorting to hyperbole and I admire you.
This isn't a popularity contest when we come to a public forum, but an opportunity to share our opinons, and if we are really open-minded, to learn something outside the realm of our own paradigms.
Okay, enough of the shine job [;)] - point is, I think within the next year we will see, with the exception of a few extremists and fear-mongers that immigration is truly a bi-partisan issue. Let's just hope something substantive comes of it well before it gets muddled into a presidential election which is STILL more than 1 1/2 years away. Let's keep letters and pressure on our legislators to do something now instead of allowing it to be a topical voting issue for the next 20 years while the problem escalates and we don't have any money left to even pay our legislators anymore. I think more states passing immigration laws will send a very clear signal to Washington that the time is now to make something very real happen.
HT- Your last post directed at MH2010 is almost word-for-word from Reverand Orta's mouth. Why don't you try really reading the text of bills which are before the governor instead of spouting off the opinions which sound fashionable to you from the evening news or The Tulsa World, the Daily Koz, or moveon.org.
I have always had a lot of respect for Rev. Victor Orta and he raised some wonderful kids. Two of whom I went to school with in Tulsa, while you were honing your liberal chops and living and investing in a headonistic San Francisco lifestyle.
My respect for him is conditional though, I respect him until he starts up with his fear-mongering that the police are going to brutalize all the hispanics in this city. That is absolute BS, and it makes me wonder if he's really read the text of this bill either. Since he makes a living mostly off donations from the Hispanic community, I'd say he has a vested interest in the issue.
You are nothing more than someone with an elitist mentality who either secretly made a bunch of dough and suffers from a guilt complex, or someone who is just flat pissed that they didn't have enough ambition to really make it in this life and now you choose to sit around and talk about how greedy, hate-mongering Republicans screwed up your life for you as they passed your Yugo in their Ferraris on the PCH.
Let's see you are making crappy wages one day, yet capable of dumping $400K into our local economy in a couple of years the next. Your lifestyle seems to change minute-by-minute to suit your point. The only browning here seems to be the residual from what spews forth from your mouth.
Or maybe you are the typical limousine liberal who doesn't give crap to charitable organizations or individuals but think your anonymous "donations" handled by the government are enough. Either that or paying "that Mexican boy" $20 to mow your lawn and to plant petunias is a worthy gesture. You must assume that the government is perfectly capable of handling your anonymous donantions for the rest of your charitability.
RW- I get the point about logically where you think our funding should go, that almost makes sense to me. Difference is, the terrorists live to the east of us, not the south. There are multiple national security issues facing us at one time. Taking the eye off the ball on one front to put more focus on another is dangerous, I believe they are equally important. I know you think the war in the middle east is worthless. IMO- Mis-managed yes, worthless, no.
If you are going to spring the point on us that one of the "guest workers" under the '86 "amnesty act" was one of the WTC '93 spear-heads, that's old news and so far as anyone knows, he never swam across the Rio Grande.
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
[brThe bad part of the process is there is nothing to stop them from coming back to the U.S. Many times a individual will simply change their name, cross the border and move to a different area within the U.S. That is one of the reasons it is so hard to find an illegal immigrants true name and information.
[/quote]
MH- I quizzed one of my police friends over a few beers one night as to why the public feels there is apathy on the part of TPD and TCSD officers about illegal immigration, and you summed it up much as he did. He never said that illegals aren't adjudicated, just that officers realize that there is a better chance of keeping a violent U.S. citizen off the streets for an extended period than an illegal alien.
The quote I cited from you leads to a very critical point which has made illegal immigration so easy. One question we didn't get down to is why aren't there sting operations against fake I.D. mills?
Please enlighten me.
As I see it, this is the one incentive to illegal immigrants which could be wiped out in short order with a concerted effort. I'm sure there are some operations on the other side of the U.S. border, but there has to be a good majority on this side based on how quickly someone can come up with, or correct their documentation.
I know it would be time-consuming to bust them all as anyone with a computer can create great fakes these days. But if you take away the I.D.'s you eliminate a large part of the means to take advantage of sneaking into the country. Without them, a lot of honest employers wouldn't be getting swindled. That is why I see that as being the second priority after sealing the borders.
Where I work, we face a ton of pressure right now. Due to energy prices, consumer demand, and upgrades which keep our customers ahead of the EPA, we are busy. We could easily do more business and employ more people in skilled, non-skilled, and sales positions. But we toe a very fine line between facing a shortage of qualified workers which has put us behind on work (the rest of my industry is in the same boat) or wind up in deep **** with the gov't if we don't cast a critical eye on the documents someone presents us along with their I-9 form when they apply for a job.
We might have passed on a few really good immigrant workers who could solve our problem and are here legally. But, due to the quality of various forged ID cards these days which might provide "legal" documentation to someone who is not here legally, we'd rather pass on an anal exam from the INS. We have passed on a few potential employees who were able to correct discrepencies in their various I.D.'s within a matter of hours or a few days (much quicker than you or I could do with fed or state documents) which is very prudent on our part.
This is an area where people don't understand why we need better enforcement of immigration codes. I might not be such a big proponent of enforcing immigration laws and immigration reform if I hadn't lived this every single work day for the last few years. I really believe people who don't get this are living in ivory towers trying to make believe that we are a bunch of xenophobes and hate Mexicans because they are "different". I personally don't give two sh!ts whether or not someone we hire was born in the U.S., Russia, Mexico, Ireland, or Katmandu as long as they came here through legal channels and will put in an honest day's work.
My company could actually be generating more in better paying jobs, corporate taxes, and payroll taxes right now if we could separate who has legitimate documentation from bogus documentation. We don't care what country they were born in, what color they are, just as long as they have a legal right to work in our country and will do what is asked of them.
quote:
Why don't you take your $400,000 twist it up like a California roll, light it on fire, shove it up your a** and flame out all the way back to where you so obviously belong.
Funniest line in the last month.[}:)]
Sorry to revive a dead thread, but governor Henry's website indicates he has signed HB 1804.
Any more thoughts on the subject now that it's come to pass? Is Hometown busy packing?
Time will surely tell. HB 1804 may be tough, but I feel confident that the doomsday predictions made by it's opponents won't come to pass. I imagine it will be very similar to Oklahoma's landmark meth law that has greatly reduced a serious problem with very little impact, inconvenience, or expense for the average citizen and with very few unintended consequences.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Time will surely tell. HB 1804 may be tough, but I feel confident that the doomsday predictions made by it's opponents won't come to pass. I imagine it will be very similar to Oklahoma's landmark meth law that has greatly reduced a serious problem with very little impact, inconvenience, or expense for the average citizen and with very few unintended consequences.
I'd love to see that. I just hope it proves to be as effective as our meth law. It will take quite a while to see any results. It's a step in the right direction, but it's just the first step.
I've worked for attorneys for over 23 years now and it has caused me to strive for exact meaning in my choice of words. Saying, "nothing has brought me closer" is not the same as saying "if this bill passes I will leave."
I got two out of three vetoes. That's not bad.
Now, that's not to say what Governor Henry did isn't bad. He has made a very serious mistake and if he ever wanted a life in national politics he is now what they call – damaged goods.
Anyway, I've lived through the passage of one of these bills before. Not one provision was ever enforced. It looks to me like Oklahoma doesn't want to pay for the laws already on the books. "Cheap" is an important concept when one contemplates life in Oklahoma.
And Tulsa is my hometown. I knew what I was getting into when I came back here. Remember "Impeach Earl Warren."
This is one sad chapter in what will be a very long story.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I've worked for attorneys for over 23 years now and it has caused me to strive for exact meaning in my choice of words. Saying, "nothing has brought me closer" is not the same as saying "if this bill passes I will leave."
I got two out of three vetoes. That's not bad.
Now, that's not to say what Governor Henry did isn't bad. He has made a very serious mistake and if he ever wanted a life in national politics he is now what they call – damaged goods.
Anyway, I've lived through the passage of one of these bills before. Not one provision was ever enforced. It looks to me like Oklahoma doesn't want to pay for the laws already on the books. "Cheap" is an important concept when one contemplates life in Oklahoma.
And Tulsa is my hometown. I knew what I was getting into when I came back here. Remember "Impeach Earl Warren."
This is one sad chapter in what will be a very long story.
So will you really leave?I remember when Bush won the presidential election alot of libs were saying they would leave the country,but didn't.
HT, you are in an ever-increasing minority on illegal immigration. Working in law as you have, what about "illegal" fails to register with you. The only people pissed about this bill are the illegal immigrants who can no longer take advantage of our social programs designed for LEGAL CITIZENS.
Henry? Damaged goods my a$$. Watch him defeat Inhofe.
The only two things I don't like about the bill are the extended time-lines for employer compliance and I did not see a provision addressing the bogus ID problem.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
How do you write "Illegals, don't let the sun set on you" in Spanish? I want to make some signs and put them at the Texas-Oklahoma border.
I'm glad to see Oklahoma once again leading the country with legislation that gets **** done. This will stick it hard to illegals and tell them to stay the **** out of Oklahoma. Once other states see how well this works like our meth laws did, they will be passing similiar laws.
Illegals, no deja el sol fijar en ti
"Would you trade ending the war in Iraq and using the money instead to seal the Mexican border..." - rwarn
Current spending is what, 2 billion every ten (10) days?
I would favor siphoning funds from the ME occupation to secure the border or embed this into the funding bill - come July we open an account at Acme Fence co. - with conditions or if conditions were ignored.
An exaggeration to illustrate my point -fumigating the neighbors garage while termites devour your home,
jdb
I say, fund the troops so we can win and then leave, who wants to lose anyway... Oh wait Harry Hamass Reid does, I forgot about him.
We could build a fence too! Maybe even consider allowing border states to use local law enforcement to secure their own border with Mexico. The money the states would save on benifits paid to illegals should more than pay for the extra law enforcement.
See how easy that was, Both problems solved.
Or, we could send Queen Nancy to Mexico to negotiate a deal that would stop the flow of illegals. She did such a fine job in Syria.
Ive not been particularly impressed with the governor's style of leadership, but of late he seems to be the only one at the capitol with his head screwed on.
Now that pressing issues like a state rock song and voter ID are out of the way, the house and senate want to be able to forcibly harvest DNA samples from people accused of minor crimes, or even at the whim of police (by including people accused of "resisting arrest" or other wishy-washy pretenses).
Existing law only takes DNA samples from people convicted of felonies, the new law does away with most of the guarantee of due process.
Senate Bill 1102 is an obscenely over-reaching and constitutionally indefensible piece of legislation courtesy of the prosecutors association and various police unions (which claim they only enforce the law, not make it).
What is with our state lawmakers lately? Do they have their own meth lab or something?
Veto this, governor. Veto.
Quote from: patric on May 17, 2009, 01:07:24 PM
Ive not been particularly impressed with the governor's style of leadership, but of late he seems to be the only one at the capitol with his head screwed on.
Now that pressing issues like a state rock song and voter ID are out of the way, the house and senate want to be able to forcibly harvest DNA samples from people accused of minor crimes, or even at the whim of police (by including people accused of "resisting arrest" or other wishy-washy pretenses).
Existing law only takes DNA samples from people convicted of felonies, the new law does away with most of the guarantee of due process.
Senate Bill 1102 is an obscenely over-reaching and constitutionally indefensible piece of legislation courtesy of the prosecutors association and various police unions (which claim they only enforce the law, not make it).
What is with our state lawmakers lately? Do they have their own meth lab or something?
Veto this, governor. Veto.
Got a link to this proposal? I would be interested in reading this because you may be right and it is over broad.
Quote from: guido911 on May 17, 2009, 01:49:57 PM
Got a link to this proposal? I would be interested in reading this because you may be right and it is over broad.
It's not entirely a bad idea, but it's so broad that it becomes a bad idea.
The bill itself is at
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2009-10bills/SB/SB1102_ENGR.RTF
The Whirled's story lists some of the misdemeanors that will result in a subjects DNA being stored in a state database:
* Assault and battery
* Domestic abuse
* Stalking
* Possession of Schedule IV drug (those having a low potential for abuse relative to the drugs or other substances in Schedule III)
* Outraging public decency
* Resisting arrest * Escape
* Eluding a police officer
* Peeping Tom
* Pointing a firearm
* Unlawful carry of a firearm
* Illegal transportation of firearm
* Discharging a firearm
* Threatening an act of violence
* Breaking and entering
* Destruction of property
* Negligent homicide
* Causing injury while driving under the influence
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20090517_16_A10_Tesaes321219
and the OSBI estimates it cost at least another $800,000 yearly.