And they have a new proposal.
200 room hotel with underground parking, restaurant space, and a bit of retail. Any residential component would depend on whether he could get the towerview and another property.
There is no more requirement to move the bus station, just screen it with some bushes and a barrier along third street.
The coney island is being remodeled so that wont be a problem for them.
The trains will get their gates so they wont be making any noise.
The centennial walk won't have to be extended.
They do hope that they and the city can work with the owners of the Wright Building to improve its appearance.
The hitch... 10 million in tax incentives.
The reason... The cost of the 200 room hotel project at 40 million or 200,000 per room would mean the hotel would have to charge 200 a night for the average room. In order to be competitive in the Tulsa market they figure 150 dollars a night is what they need to strive for. So the 10 mill is to help make up the difference.
But whether or not you can agree with this. Here is something I found interesting.
Heavenly Hospitality is asking for the Tulsa Economic Development Authority to reissue a formal request for proposals, for the Denver/second and third street properties.
Apparently Don Himelfarb, of the TDA, said nothing should happen until city officials decide whether to move city hall?
Is he thinking that by having the old city hall space available for hotel development, it would then be more likely someone else would make a better offer for the property HH is interested in than would happen if the city hall poperty wasn't available?
good luck charging 150 a night. only businessmen and escorts pay those prices.
150 a night in downtown? Once the arena and convention center is done, I dont think they will have any problem getting that. How much does the Adams Mark charge?
150 is more than reasonable.
Glad to see they are back, sans attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by DM
150 a night in downtown? Once the arena and convention center is done, I dont think they will have any problem getting that. How much does the Adams Mark charge?
The Adams Mark is now the Crowne Plaza. AAA Oklahoma's website lists a April weekend stay at the Crowne Plaza to be $116 for two adults. The DoubleTree Downtown is listed at $139. Ambassador Hotel: $109.
Given Crowne Plaza's scheduled renovation efforts, $150 may be competitive in the next few years.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
quote:
Originally posted by DM
150 a night in downtown? Once the arena and convention center is done, I dont think they will have any problem getting that. How much does the Adams Mark charge?
The Adams Mark is now the Crowne Plaza. AAA Oklahoma's website lists a April weekend stay at the Crowne Plaza to be $116 for two adults. The DoubleTree Downtown is listed at $139. Ambassador Hotel: $109.
Given Crowne Plaza's scheduled renovation efforts, $150 may be competitive in the next few years.
i've stayed in better for less. none of the hotels mentioned could get away with what they charge if they were in other cities.
Compare that to what the Mc Birney mansion hotel expansion will be asking at 450 dollars and up a night. Some of the nicest hotels I have stayed in run 750 to 1100 and up a night. Course thats nothing compared to what the other 2% (which I am soo not a part of lol) can spend per night on a room at 10,000 a night and up. The most expensive room per night that one can buy would probably be at the international space station, currently going at just under 2 million a night, and wow what a view. So with that perspective... 150 a night, puleeeze. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Compare that to what the Mc Birney mansion hotel expansion will be asking at 450 dollars and up a night. Some of the nicest hotels I have stayed in run 750 to 1100 and up a night. Course thats nothing compared to what the other 2% (which I am soo not a part of lol) can spend per night on a room at 10,000 a night and up. The most expensive room per night that one can buy would probably be at the international space station, currently going at just under 2 million a night, and wow what a view. So with that perspective... 150 a night, puleeeze. [:P]
you are using boutique lodging as examples while what is in downtown tulsa is hardly what one would call unique, with the possible exception of the ambassador which is the cheapest of the bunch.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
quote:
Originally posted by DM
150 a night in downtown? Once the arena and convention center is done, I dont think they will have any problem getting that. How much does the Adams Mark charge?
The Adams Mark is now the Crowne Plaza. AAA Oklahoma's website lists a April weekend stay at the Crowne Plaza to be $116 for two adults. The DoubleTree Downtown is listed at $139. Ambassador Hotel: $109.
Given Crowne Plaza's scheduled renovation efforts, $150 may be competitive in the next few years.
i've stayed in better for less. none of the hotels mentioned could get away with what they charge if they were in other cities.
And I've stayed in worse for more. None of the hotels mentioned would charge as little as they do if they were in bigger cities.
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
quote:
Originally posted by DM
150 a night in downtown? Once the arena and convention center is done, I dont think they will have any problem getting that. How much does the Adams Mark charge?
The Adams Mark is now the Crowne Plaza. AAA Oklahoma's website lists a April weekend stay at the Crowne Plaza to be $116 for two adults. The DoubleTree Downtown is listed at $139. Ambassador Hotel: $109.
Given Crowne Plaza's scheduled renovation efforts, $150 may be competitive in the next few years.
i've stayed in better for less. none of the hotels mentioned could get away with what they charge if they were in other cities.
And I've stayed in worse for more. None of the hotels mentioned would charge as little as they do if they were in bigger cities.
well that statement is littered with BS. these hotels would be relegated to the airport if they were plopped down in denver or houston. they have no real competition here so they can get away with what they charge. its like the Hilton in downtown Midland,TX. That place is barely a step above a La Quinta, but they charge out the wazoo.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
And I've stayed in worse for more. None of the hotels mentioned would charge as little as they do if they were in bigger cities.
well that statement is littered with BS. these hotels would be relegated to the airport if they were plopped down in denver or houston. they have no real competition here so they can get away with what they charge. its like the Hilton in downtown Midland,TX. That place is barely a step above a La Quinta, but they charge out the wazoo.
Get outside the midwest once in awhile. I've stayed in major crapholes in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, and Miami that were mucho expensive.
But let's not lose sight of the fact that HH came crawling back sans demands, which justifies the city's telling them "thanks but no thanks" a few months ago. Also shows that the L-shaped parcel of land is just fine for building a hotel, which is an assertion several posters on this board made a long time ago.
Much depends on the day of the week, not just the caliber of hotel. If its a city with lots of business going on, then they can get away with $200 a night during the week, though perhaps not on the weekend. Intercontinental in Kansas City (four or five star) charges practically nothing on the weekend, over $200 during the week. I imagine any hotel next to a convention center during an event could easily pull in 150 to 200 a night in Tulsa. On weekends, non-events, when the draw is strictly tourists, I think it would be hard to be much over $120. I am not knocking Tulsa, but we really aren't a tourist town yet--people are not going to spend big bucks to visit us, as they would for New York, DC, etc....
But I cannot imagine a $400 a room hotel being successful in Tulsa, especially given the location. The entire draw would be from tourists, for whom money is no object. That's a pretty finite group already. And it would have to be tourists who travel simply to indulge and spend ungodly amounts of money, not to see the great cities of the world. Again, not trying to put Tulsa down, but we are not a $400 a night city. People will spend that kind of money for cities like New York, Paris, etc..., not Tulsa.
Where did all of this information come from??? A website? The news?
I'm glad to see that they're still interested and have come back without the ridiculous demands from earlier, but I'd really like to see what their new plans look like.
Sorry meant to put this on there.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070407_1_A1_hAnea84687
I'll build as many rooms as you want at $50,000 each (in public money).
Just point, and sign the check.
$10 Million in Tulsa Taxpayer money to fund a for-profit (and a lot of that) in a place where if it can't be done there, can't be done, period, is a lot of hooey.
This bunch needs to pack it back to Owasso.
Yup.....Let em sweat it out again....
quote:
Who is Heavenly Hospitality? Another faith-based business looking for taxpayer money?
01-20-09...The End of An Error
HAHAHAHA wow ..... you have problems. Do you have any examples of "faith-based businesses" wanting tax payer money?
A hotel is a huge economic engine, employing everything from buss boys, dishwashers, environmental services, to maintenance engineers, event coordinators and executive managers. Considering the revenue this could generate I would not be opposed to some sort of public funding.
I am not opposed to helping build a hotel with tax dollars, but want something bigger. 200 rooms is less than half the size of the downtown Doubletree Hotel and not big enough to handle larger events that really spur convention business.
A 200 room hotel doesn't give us much more than we have now and will probably just be competing for the same customers as our other three downtown hotels. A four hundred room hotel or bigger serves as a headquarters hotel for conventions and allows attendees some choices in accomodations.
In order to attract lots of new convention business, we need lots more rooms downtown.
The story did say these would be TAX INCENTIVES, not cash. There is a difference. Incntives are typically paid for with revenue that the city wouldn't collect without the project.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I am not opposed to helping build a hotel with tax dollars, but want something bigger. 200 rooms is less than half the size of the downtown Doubletree Hotel and not big enough to handle larger events that really spur convention business.
A 200 room hotel doesn't give us much more than we have now and will probably just be competing for the same customers as our other three downtown hotels. A four hundred room hotel or bigger serves as a headquarters hotel for conventions and allows attendees some choices in accomodations.
In order to attract lots of new convention business, we need lots more rooms downtown.
Let them build their 200 room hotel and then someone else can build a bigger one where city hall is now.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
quote:
Originally posted by DM
150 a night in downtown? Once the arena and convention center is done, I dont think they will have any problem getting that. How much does the Adams Mark charge?
The Adams Mark is now the Crowne Plaza. AAA Oklahoma's website lists a April weekend stay at the Crowne Plaza to be $116 for two adults. The DoubleTree Downtown is listed at $139. Ambassador Hotel: $109.
Given Crowne Plaza's scheduled renovation efforts, $150 may be competitive in the next few years.
i've stayed in better for less. none of the hotels mentioned could get away with what they charge if they were in other cities.
And I've stayed in worse for more. None of the hotels mentioned would charge as little as they do if they were in bigger cities.
well that statement is littered with BS. these hotels would be relegated to the airport if they were plopped down in denver or houston. they have no real competition here so they can get away with what they charge. its like the Hilton in downtown Midland,TX. That place is barely a step above a La Quinta, but they charge out the wazoo.
Inteller...try something. Call the Hyatt Regency at DFW and get a quote. Then get a quote from the Hyatt Reunion center in Dallas (the one with the revolving restaurant.)
Tell me which is more.
I'll do it for you. The Hyatt at DFW (the old one, not the 5 star new one) is TWICE as much as the Reunion Center, for which I paid 125 to stay in less than a month ago. Downtown Dallas.
Your logic is flawed. And the Westin/Crowne Royal is a nice hotel. Not the "W" or a Fairmount, but a nice hotel.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
...
But I cannot imagine a $400 a room hotel being successful in Tulsa, especially given the location. The entire draw would be from tourists, for whom money is no object. That's a pretty finite group already. And it would have to be tourists who travel simply to indulge and spend ungodly amounts of money, not to see the great cities of the world. Again, not trying to put Tulsa down, but we are not a $400 a night city. People will spend that kind of money for cities like New York, Paris, etc..., not Tulsa.
pmc...here is an interesting quote from an article the NYT in 1982...
quote:
IN THRIVING TULSA, FEW WORKERS' HANDS ARE IDLE
By WILLIAM K. STEVENS, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: February 11, 1982
John and Mary Bross, two refugees among the great stream arriving here from the economically stricken North, have never stayed in the $423-a-night executive suite in downtown Tulsa's understatedly elegant new Excelsior Hotel, where neither the nearzero freeze of Oklahoma winter nights nor the economic chill afflicting most of the country can penetrate.
They have never seen the white linens and red roses and crystal that grace the tables of the Excelsior's restaurant, which opened only a week ago; nor have they listened to the harpist's music there, or tasted the filet of sole or the oysters Rockefeller, or overheard middle-aged oilmen and their wives at nearby tables talking of face lifts and ski trips, of breakfast rides in the Rockies and salmon fishing in Alaska.
But the Brosses, the Excelsior and its guests are all part of an economic success story that flies in the face of the current recession. At a time when the national unemployment rate is approaching double digits for the first time since the Depression, Tulsa's rate is a microscopic 3.6 percent. That makes it the most fully employed city in the country, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
It has achieved that distinction because it has a robust economy partly based on computers, metal fabricating and aerospace activities, but mostly animated by oil and gas production.
The opening of a place like the Excelsior at a time like this would be unthinkable in much of the nation. Here, it is part of a $600-million-a-year building boom that just keeps on building.
And for the 28-year-old Brosses, the atmosphere inside the old blue school bus they have converted into a temporary home at a campground just east of town is just as warm as the atmosphere at the Excelsior.
I've stayed in $200 a night rooms in frikken MEMPHIS that had bathroom doors that didnt even shut.
I stayed in a $350 a room in Kansas City last weekend that was no bigger than your average room at a Holiday Inn.
Its all about where you are and what's going on. $150 a night is getting to be pretty standard when a Holiday Inn costs $70 a night easy.
BUTTTTTTT.... if the city is going to pay for 25% of the cost, does that mean the city gets a 25% stake in the operation? If not, why subsidize the competition of long standing Tulsa businesses that are investing of their own accord in downtown?
The Double Tree and Crowne Plaza are spending millions of their own dollars betting on downtown, someone NEW comes along and wants to be subsidized? And where does the funding for such a project come from... excess revenue from the hotel/motel tax. So these hotels are passing along tax money that will be given to their direct competition. Nice. How pissed would you be if the city decided to pay 25% of the cost of building competition for your business?
I'm not so sure on that one.
Let's quit letting the tail wag the dog....
quote:
...here is an interesting quote from an article the NYT in 1982...
The next day, the bottom fell out, and not another major project was built in Tulsa for over 10 years. [true story]
I can't imagine paying much over $200 for a hotel, unless I was in New York. $350 for Kansas City seems ridiculous--we booked a room at the Intercontinental for a little over $200. My parents stayed in the Peabody in Memphis for around the same. Even in Dallas, apart from the Mansion, you can get a downtown room for around $250 (like the Adolphus). I have even stayed at decent hotels in DC and New York for under 300. Again, these are all weekend rates--weekday are probably higher. I think that 150 to 200 during the week, or special events, is perfectly reasonable. And I imagine that some rooms some of the time could pull in $400. I just don't imagine an entire hotel being able to pull that in on a regular basis here in Tulsa. Apart from the Mansion in Dallas, does anyone know of any hotels in the area that routinely charge $400 a night? I haven't found any.
Pfox--I have read that article in the past, and had thought the $429 figure was a mistake. We had family that stayed in that hotel back in the 80s. I don't know exactly what they paid, but I am positive they would have never spent that kind of money (doubt if they could have afforded it). Maybe for the executive suite, but I expect that the average room was much, much less.
Back more on topic, I think the city is right to wait until the decision whether to move city hall.
I paid about $300 in boston in the smallest hotel room I've ever been in. I just checked and that hotel charges $280-$500 a night. I was travelling with someone who was paying about $400 in another hotel in boston.
Seems like most rooms in dallas are $100-$200.
Man ... I must be a cheapskate.
The last time I remember paying $100 for a hotel room was La Posada in Winslow, Ariz., which is fabulous and worth every penny, IMO.
Even in Chicago, L.A. and St. Louis, I've been able to find sub-$100 hotel rooms fairly easily. Hint: Don't look close to the interstates.
rwarn: I understand that you CAN find cheaper rooms, but we are talking about how much they can fleece from vistors (frankly).
In Memphis, I stayed near Beale street for the Liberty Bowl and paid for it.
In KC I stayed at the Casino and paid for it.
Clearly I could have found cheaper rooms, but for what I wanted out of that weekend it was perfect. Likewise, I think they could find plenty of people at $150 a night for many of the events that are in Tulsa (and/or are promised for Tulsa).
in the past 12 months- i've paid 250 in denver... 330 (rack rate at the peabody last month) and 200 in memphis... 200 and 225 in kc... and 420 in boston...
not to mention $430 in cancun (non AI), palm springs for $350 and yes true story, $380 a night in vegas...
but then again, i don't like dumps... and boston and cancun were for jr. suites with copley/ocean view...
This has been quite a few years ago (pre-9/11, actually), but one of my day jobs in Chicago was working for a company that booked special rate hotel rooms for conventions across the country.
Most were big conventions that came through Chicago, but many were in Orlando, Minn/St Paul, Detroit, Las Vegas, Memphis, Philly, Palm Springs, the Javits Ctr in NYC, etc, etc, etc...
A predetermined list of rooms available were given to... let's say the American Library Assoc... to call by a certain date to get the discounts... I remember discounted rooms at the Ritz-Carlton, Four Seasons or Hyatt Regency running around $239 a night at the convention rate.
These rooms filled really quickly for certain conventions... but the ALA had those discounted four-star rooms available all the way up until the convention started. in that convention, the midpriced hotel rooms filled up very quickly, and the limited couple of smaller cheaper hotels like Travel Inn and Days Inn sold out of their specially priced rooms within days... guess those librarians don't have the big bucks?!?
Hopefully, enough is being done to renovate/modernize Tulsa's existing downtown convention center... few/none of these convention centers in other cities are attached or affiliated with a larger sports arena... (McCormick Place/Chicago, Javits Center/NYC, Hynes/Boston, etc).
Tulsa has a great selling point for the pricing on their nicer hotels... what's missing downtown seems to be some cheaper midpriced hotels... the more price points/options the better..... which makes you wonder how/why the city hasn't gotten more involved in the East End project, instead of letting it dwindle into a game of Monopoly between Global Development Partners and WalMart (will this become another game with the houses and hotels replaced by surface parking?)
Hmmm, just waiting to find out who bought Marvin Gardens???... [:O]
I can't help but think that eventually Tulsa won't need to give out $10 million in tax incentives for a hotel next to the BOk Center. Downtown is slowly but surely coming back to life. When the BOk Center begins to host major events, there will be a far greater demand for hotel rooms downtown. Won't potential profits eventually cause another hotel developer to build the hotel on their own dollar? The Crowne Plaza is undergoing a $10 million renovation. Why should the city give out $10 million to a hotel that probably won't be any nicer than the Crowne Plaza eventually will be?
The city wants there to be some more development in progress or done when the arena opens. This won't be the only hotel coming.
Maybe we should agree to give them tax incentives if they buy city hall.