NEVER MIND..
"I wish I knew how to quit you".
Oh...I just change the channel.
How about changing the channel.
Sounds snarky, but if the network censors allow it and you don't like, then don't watch the show.
IMO, I wouldn't call the kiss on last night's show passionate, by any means.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Plato%27s_Stepchildren_kiss.jpg)
This had the same effect 29 years ago.
I personally don't want to see two men kissing. I don't want to seem Jim Belushi pretending to be funny either. If you don't like it, quit watching it. Networks will put on whatever people will watch because it's sells advertising. Don't blame them for doing a show if you keep watching it. That's like me being mad at Taco Bueno for making the Muchaco.
Im not easily offended and strongly dislike the government telling me what I can watch on TV... so Im afraid I would be on the vote-with-your-wallet bandwagon. Dont watch it and the problem is cured.
I understand that it grosses you out - while being short of grossed out it would probably make me somewhat uncomfortable if it was as graphic as you indicate. I guess you have to decide if the rest of the show is worth 'putting up' with the aspects you dont like. Kinda like me watching college basketball when Dickie V is calling the game I guess.
Per your Brokeback comment, I would actually say that was a good movie. However, the unnecessarily graphic and random gay sex scene really detracts from the movie (basic movie - two cowboys go up in the mountains and get lonely, fall in love, rest of movie is them struggling with homosexuality in a tough guy climate - one stays in the closet the other does not). To me it didn't seem very logical nor needed to the story line (la la la, hearding sheep... hey its cold, yeah it is, lets fark). If they were really interested in a well made artsy movie to highlight the story they didn't need THAT scene. If the story was there - even including 2 kissing sessions - most people wouldn't have been highly offended and might have given it a try (the movie you sick, sick individual).
The sex scene in "Brokeback" (which was hardly what I call graphic ... most of the action was implied) was crucial in establishing who the dominant one of the couple was. That set up quite a few character studies and psychological components for the rest of the film.
I'm straight, but I wasn't bugged by it. If you're bugged by public displays of affection in general, fine.
But if you're bugged simply because two guys show affection, then you've probably got other issues.
Just sayin'.
Edited..
I didn't think the kissing scene was "unexpected" anyway -- it was pretty obvious what was about to happen.
I wouldn't have wanted a young kid in the room, but it's an adult show on at 9 p.m. so I don't think it was that big a deal.
I didn't know they had practice. Do they have open tryouts too?
[}:)]
Loved the line from "Stripes":
"Are you homosexual?"
"No, but I'm willing to learn."
rwarn17588: I would have to say seeing two people, of any sex, gyrating with penetrating motions and moaning is fairly graphic. I'm sure they went as far as they could and still avoid NC17. I wouldnt feel comfortable watching that scene with my mother if they were a gay or straight couple... I guess that is my test for graphic.
But yes, while I hold myself out as a very tolerant person and couldn't care less about someones personal sex life... I'm afraid I do have a double standard about viewing it. I don't think their should be a double standard regulatory wise, but I simply dont like watching (male) homosexual sex. Much like I dont like Dickie V either... but dont want to see him banned (well, I WANT to see him banned, but dont believe it would be right).
This is where I play the "I have gay friends and..." card, to show what a great person I am. [;)]
Has there been much lesbo action on TV?
Seems like they'd "start the desensitification process" by showing us more of the more-acceptable girlie girl kissing first.
I don't mind seeing lesbians kissing but when the guys start I have to turn the channel.
Which brings up a thought......do homosexuals like seeing straight people kissing on TV?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
rwarn17588: I would have to say seeing two people, of any sex, gyrating with penetrating motions and moaning is fairly graphic. I'm sure they went as far as they could and still avoid NC17. I wouldnt feel comfortable watching that scene with my mother if they were a gay or straight couple... I guess that is my test for graphic.
But yes, while I hold myself out as a very tolerant person and couldn't care less about someones personal sex life... I'm afraid I do have a double standard about viewing it. I don't think their should be a double standard regulatory wise, but I simply dont like watching (male) homosexual sex. Much like I dont like Dickie V either... but dont want to see him banned (well, I WANT to see him banned, but dont believe it would be right).
This is where I play the "I have gay friends and..." card, to show what a great person I am. [;)]
Edited
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I don't mind seeing lesbians kissing but when the guys start I have to turn the channel.
Which brings up a thought......do homosexuals like seeing straight people kissing on TV?
Not really. In fact, we race to see who can kiss the longest. (We typically win! [:P])
Homosexual imagery has been around since the dawn of civilization as homosexual relationships were commonplace amongst the romans, greeks and egyptians. Is it still that big of a deal that two men kiss one another? I mean really are there not more important things do. Homosexuality exists in the world, why continue to pretend it doesn't. Morals are subjective, so the best answer would be change the channel, of course with all the story lines in the show that would be a shame to change it for 4 seconds of a man kissing a man. If we didn't do things that made us uncomfortable we wouldn't do anything as the body and mind are most comfortable at rest.
quote:
A series on Sunday television called, "Brothers and Sisters" has as one of the characters, a brother, a gay person. That is all well and good, but two times in the last two weeks we unexpectedly were shown two grown men passionately kissing. This absolutely grosses us out. Any comments pro or con.
The kissing event a few weeks ago was dismissed by us as rather non-problematical, but now after the second time it looks like yet another program to take off our favorites list.
Be my guest and take it off your list; you always have the option to turn off the TV or change channels.
As a gay man, I am not fond of watching a man and a woman trying to swallow each other's tongues either. That pretty much "grosses me out" too. I am not a fan of gratuitous sex scenes period, regardless of the gender of the participants. 99% of TV today is indeed a "vast wasteland."
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I don't mind seeing lesbians kissing but when the guys start I have to turn the channel.
Which brings up a thought......do homosexuals like seeing straight people kissing on TV?
Of their sex. Duh....
quote:
Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I don't mind seeing lesbians kissing but when the guys start I have to turn the channel.
Which brings up a thought......do homosexuals like seeing straight people kissing on TV?
Of their sex. Duh....
Whatever...[^]
Just wanted to say your new website and forum look really good. You did a great job! [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I don't mind seeing lesbians kissing but when the guys start I have to turn the channel.
Which brings up a thought......do homosexuals like seeing straight people kissing on TV?
Not really, but after 50+ years of straight kissing on TV, we are pretty much used to it. The first instance I remember of a girl/girl kiss on TV was that infamous episode of Roseanne circa 1994 or so, where Mariel Hemmingway kissed Roseanne Barr in the club.
Why do heterosexual men think lesbian kissing/sex is so hot? Do straight women get off on two hunky, body-builder type men having gay sex? I would guess no. I think the only possible explanation is that males are so turned on by visual depictions of sex, in other words, men are pigs, and one woman is good, 2+ women is hot damn!
Yawn, I'm changing the channel.
Thought they were actors acting in a scene. It is not a real kiss to begin with, is it? Or is it really real? Is it Real or is it Memorex?
You may actually be aroused by watching and are just lying to each other that it disgusts you to cover up. LOL
Oh I forgot we are in the Bible Belt where anything other than what the Religious Right dictates must be wrong.
Sounds more like you may have fallen victim to the Religious Right's brain washing techniques.
Did you never experiment with sex as a boy with your friends? Guess that is like the "Officer I only had one Beer" story.
Or the.. there are two types of people, liars and those that admit they masterbate.
======================================
I prescribe a night out Bar Hopping to some of Tulsa's and Oklahoma Cities Gay Bars. Take in a Drag Show as well. Be sure to attend the Gay Pride Parade on Cherry Street. All will do you and your spouse a world of good to get out and be festive and have some fun, rather than sitting at home watching other people's lives unfold on TV.
Never know who you may run into down at Veterans Park on Riverside during the Gay Pride event.
==================================
"Most people I know are Tri-Sexuals, they try most anything."
"The worst Sex I have ever had I described as Marvelous"
While I am not an advocate of public display of affection, I can understand a scene in a work of art or media that depicts such an act.
Picture is worth a thousand words or perhaps even more as it seems with your reaction.
It has to be better than watching expolsions, death destruction and war on TV does it not?
May not want to have children if you are opposed to gay sex. One or more of them may be born Gay, or grow up to be gay if that is what you believe. Either way, it would be a tragedy for a parent to be disgusted at their own child for kissing another of the same sex.
http://www.gayly.com/thegallery.asp
A few photos of the Tulsa Gay Pride festivities at the park over the past few years.
The entire event is one of Tulsa's better events and attractions of the year. If you have not atteneded the Parade or festival following in the park, I suggest you take a bicycle ride or a walk around and enjoy the entertainment.
Montrose area in Houston, Texas hosts one of the better celebrations in this region. Houston has their own Gay Business Yellow Page Book there. Very large community in Houson as well as other places in the US.
http://gayellowpages.com/
http://www.tohr.org/tulsapride2006.html
"Hate is not a family value"
Here are a few Kissing Scenes ... Warning do not view if you are emotionally effected by same sex kissing. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=boys+kissing
Boys Kissing
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=girls+kissing+
Girls Kissing
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Not really, but after 50+ years of straight kissing on TV, we are pretty much used to it. The first instance I remember of a girl/girl kiss on TV was that infamous episode of Roseanne circa 1994 or so, where Mariel Hemmingway kissed Roseanne Barr in the club.
Why do heterosexual men think lesbian kissing/sex is so hot? Do straight women get off on two hunky, body-builder type men having gay sex? I would guess no. I think the only possible explanation is that males are so turned on by visual depictions of sex, in other words, men are pigs, and one woman is good, 2+ women is hot damn!
btw Steve, I wasn't gay bashing with my remark.
My point is we are who we are, or born as. I can't explain why some people find somethings offensive and others don't.
What I do believe is our creator wants us to be as how he created us. If one is born gay, they need to be accepted and if one is born straight, they too need accepted as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I think the only possible explanation is that males are so turned on by visual depictions of sex, in other words, men are pigs, and one woman is good, 2+ women is hot damn!
That, plus men like naked women.
O/T...
quote:
Be sure to attend the Gay Pride Parade on Cherry Street.
My wife and I were shopping at the Farmer's Market one Saturday morning when this debacle was going on. Parades like these have become nothing more than cliche events and only help reinforce negative stereotypes of gays.
I am as "live and let live" as anyone could be, and I could care less what side of the plate you swing from. But speaking from a purely common sense standpoint...what do people hope to gain from dancing in their underwear in the streets in an sexually overtoned parade? Of course, not everyone was behaving in this manner, but there were enough who were. Is the purpose to shock and offend, or is it to help people understand that gay people are regular folks just like the straight people they work and live next to? If you're hoping to engender compassion and understanding from the straight community I don't think this is the way to go about it.
I bet the shop owners along the parade route who experience more sales during this event would tend to disagree. This parade has been very good for the businesses along Cherry Street.
quote:
I bet the shop owners along the parade route who experience more sales during this event would tend to disagree. This parade has been very good for the businesses along Cherry Street.
I don't see how that comment addresses my point at all...it's not a discussion of how much money they generate, it's about the image proffered. I'm sure the goal of the gay pride parade is not to make money for businesses on Cherry Street, though the businesses are happy to take it.
Is it okay that they're defeating the purpose of why the gay pride parades were held in the first place....just as long as they make money?
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
O/T...
quote:
Be sure to attend the Gay Pride Parade on Cherry Street.
My wife and I were shopping at the Farmer's Market one Saturday morning when this debacle was going on. Parades like these have become nothing more than cliche events and only help reinforce negative stereotypes of gays.
I am as "live and let live" as anyone could be, and I could care less what side of the plate you swing from. But speaking from a purely common sense standpoint...what do people hope to gain from dancing in their underwear in the streets in an sexually overtoned parade? Of course, not everyone was behaving in this manner, but there were enough who were. Is the purpose to shock and offend, or is it to help people understand that gay people are regular folks just like the straight people they work and live next to? If you're hoping to engender compassion and understanding from the straight community I don't think this is the way to go about it.
Men dancing in their underwear at the Tulsa Pride Parade? When did that happen? How did I miss that part??? And while we are on the subject, I think we need to question these Mardi Gras parades; Their are only so many women's breasts I can see before I lose my compassion and understanding for the straight community. [;)]
Money talks, bullsh#*t walks. You bore me. Next you'll be complaining about Octoberfest because of the image a beer festival portrays.
It was either two, or three years ago, I can't recall with 100% certainty and it was by no means a large percentage, but those in charge should understand the impact of a few bad apples...as for Mardi Gras, I wouldn't have my kids there, and it's not being held to raise awareness for a particular cause...maybe alcoholism.[;)]
I just feel that it's important to keep in mind the real goal of getting your message out as a group.
If the Oklahoma Beef Council held a parade to justify their industry to vegetarians, would it help to slaughter one during the parade? IOW, don't take the most radical element/idea in your group and throw it in the face of those people that you're trying to reach.
It's all about the presentation...anyways there are more valuable things to do with your time than have parades, they're like awards shows now. Build a house for habitat...serve food at the homeless shelter. We can all do things together that benefit the community and have aboslutely NOTHING to do with anyone's sexual orientation. Out of common interests people will overcome stigmas...direct conflict usually polarizes.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Money talks, bullsh#*t walks. You bore me. Next you'll be complaining about Octoberfest because of the image a beer festival portrays.
Apparently your machine kills common sense as well. You've been complaining of being bored since the thread started...so just move along.
One thing I can agree with IPLAW on here, is that I don't understand why some people, of any orientation, seem driven to define their being by their sexuality. It seems more common I'm the gay community, but anyone who knows a stereotypical "frat boy" has to admit it happens in the heterosexual community as well.
I havent seen the Tulsa Parade, but other Parade's I have witnessed are an affirmation of sexuality as a definition of who they are as well as being an abomination to the gay people I know that live and work in a respected professional environment. It sucks that such a stereotype from the 'dildo strapped to my head' look at me type is cast on everyone that's gay. I know I'd hate it if everyone thought of me as the most obnoxious of the heterosexual world.
Bleh. I think I'm walking a tight rope here.
I think this argument is splitting hairs. It's akin to saying in the 1960s, "Well, the civil rights movement would be a lot more successful if it wasn't for the loud, smelly, rutting ni**ers."
The gay community is seeking acceptance with the community at large. And you know what? It's working. Gays are much more accepted than they were even 15 years ago, and that situation will continue to improve. I'm fairly certain that the majority of states will accept civil unions within my lifetime.
And in ANY group, you're bound to have a few bad apples. But I'd rather have the gay community's bad apples than just about everyone else's.
With the NRA, you're going to have a few nuts who don't want their grenade-launching flamethrowers outlawed. With the lefties, you have Earth Firsters who essentially advocate domestic terrorism. With the righties, you've got folks who lump all Muslims with the small number of bad guys and would nuke Mecca. In my beloved Route 66, you've got a smattering of people who, if they had their way, would rip up all the interstates and go back to two-lane roads.
In all, these are not reasonable people. And unreasonable people are in every cranny you look.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I think this argument is splitting hairs. It's akin to saying in the 1960s, "Well, the civil rights movement would be a lot more successful if it wasn't for the loud, smelly, rutting ni**ers."
The gay community is seeking acceptance with the community at large. And you know what? It's working. Gays are much more accepted than they were even 15 years ago, and that situation will continue to improve. I'm fairly certain that the majority of states will accept civil unions within my lifetime.
And in ANY group, you're bound to have a few bad apples. But I'd rather have the gay community's bad apples than just about everyone else's.
With the NRA, you're going to have a few nuts who don't want their grenade-launching flamethrowers outlawed. With the lefties, you have Earth Firsters who essentially advocate domestic terrorism. With the righties, you've got folks who lump all Muslims with the small number of bad guys and would nuke Mecca. In my beloved Route 66, you've got a smattering of people who, if they had their way, would rip up all the interstates and go back to two-lane roads.
In all, these are not reasonable people. And unreasonable people are in every cranny you look.
When are we going to have Tulsa's first hetero pride parade? I'm just curious what wackos would turn out to protest that?
The radicals in the gay community or any cause/special interest group do little or nothing to advance the cause, nor the public image, if anything they detract from it.
It hasn't been the radical gays that have brought about tolerance and acceptance, it's the neighbor and their partner that are considerate and keep a tidy place, it's your productive co-worker who has busted your paradigm of all gays being degenerates who hide behind bushes to attack our kids as they walk down the street.
I don't have a problem with gay people, people of different races, etc. So long as they respect my cultural background and personal preferences, and don't demand special treatment because of who they are, I'll respect them.
I've been to the Pride Parade and Festival on two or three different occassions. I'm straight. I've never had a problem with the event other than it always seems to be on one of the hottest days of the summer.
It seems to me that the most important reason for the Parade and Festival is internal community support and awareness. Basically, it has little or nothing to do with anyone who isn't either gay or a PFLAG. It's bringing about awareness that there is indeed a gay community, mainsteam or otherwise. That if you are gay or a PFLAG, you're not the only one in this city.
For the rest of you, I doubt anyone really cares what your opinion is. You're anti-gay or anti-parade opinions are typical, and it's not about you anyway.
quote:
For the rest of you, I doubt anyone really cares what your opinion is. You're anti-gay or anti-parade opinions are typical, and it's not about you anyway.
Your comments are a delightful example of why fence-sitting people on the issue would rather just slam the door on the issue as a gut reaction. I think that for the most part this discussion has been civilized and I don't believe that I, Conan, or Cannon Fodder have expressed anything that could be construed as anti-gay.
BTW, we
are the opinions that matter, we
are part of the community they are seeking tolerance and acceptance from, unless that's really not the point in the first place...Do you think it helps when you scoff at the people you're trying to reach...please.
That's the whole problem in a nutshell. No one is free to discuss the topic unless their opinion is lavashing praise and unbridled acceptance of every possible act/behavior.
I simply stated that the message may be accepted more readily when you apply the old honey/vinegar adage and for them to try and pass around a dose of the tolerance that they want so badly, to others around them.....
Your version of tolerance being, to come on a message a complain about a parade because you assume it's somehow about you. You are so discriminated against, gays should feel sorry for you and tolerate your complaining. You were walking one day down Cherry Street and got whopped up side the head with Pride Parade and it made you cry. Got it.
No one is trying to "convert" you. If you hate it so much, protest it. Several do. It'll change the situation just about as much as posting your opinion on here.
<iplaw wrote:
Your comments are a delightful example of why fence-sitting people on the issue would rather just slam the door on the issue as a gut reaction.
<end clip>
In the end, it doesn't matter much. The nation is becoming more sympathetic and accepting of the gay community every day.
A generation ago, interracial marriage was frowned upon and even was illegal in some states. A very few people still frown upon it now. If it takes the old bigots to simply die out before it's fully mainstream, so be it.
Hmmm...I participate in a discussion on an open message board, which ostensibly is around for the free exchange of ideas, and I'm suddenly intolerant because my views don't exactly track with your's...pathetic. You just reinforce my points.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
I simply stated that the message may be accepted more readily when you apply the old honey/vinegar adage and for them to try and pass around a dose of the tolerance that they want so badly, to others around them.....
If PR and politics was the point of the parade, I'd agree. That's not the point of the parade, it's not simply about appearances or politics.
quote:
In the end, it doesn't matter much. The nation is becoming more sympathetic and accepting of the gay community every day.
And that is a great thing, but it's in no event due to gay pride parades as Conan stated....
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
I simply stated that the message may be accepted more readily when you apply the old honey/vinegar adage and for them to try and pass around a dose of the tolerance that they want so badly, to others around them.....
If PR and politics was the point of the parade, I'd agree. That's not the point of the parade, it's not simply about appearances or politics.
What is it about then? Isn't it about informing the community, and helping breed tolerance? If those are the goals, I'd rather not have you on my team if I were them. It's always laughable when those preaching or begging for tolerance refuse to show it in kind. The "if you don't like it, then just shut up" attitude gets you nowhere....
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
And that is a great thing, but it's in no event due to gay pride parades as Conan stated....
That's the point. You're creating an issue where none exists.
The parade and festival is not about politics at all. And to even argue that it's PR for "non-believers" is going to be a stretch. Politics may have been at one time, the point. It's not now for sure.
If you actually appear at the Festival, it's just a bunch of folks having fun, eating, buying stuff, and watching impersonators. That's about it. They aren't making plans to turn you into a homosexual, or to force you to tolerate them.
quote:
That's the point. You're creating an issue where none exists.
Obviously it is an issue, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it.
quote:
If you actually appear at the Festival, it's just a bunch of folks having fun, eating, buying stuff, and watching impersonators. That's about it. They aren't making plans to turn you into a homosexual, or to force you to tolerate them.
I don't think anyone was saying they were trying to force anyone into being a homosexual, more hyperbole on your part. No one even said they are trying to force tolerance. Tolerance can't be forced.
But if they are looking for tolerance as a genuine response, which is generally the way it's presented, then snarky attitudes and brash behavior aren't the way to go about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I think this argument is splitting hairs. It's akin to saying in the 1960s, "Well, the civil rights movement would be a lot more successful if it wasn't for the loud, smelly, rutting ni**ers."
The gay community is seeking acceptance with the community at large. And you know what? It's working. Gays are much more accepted than they were even 15 years ago, and that situation will continue to improve. I'm fairly certain that the majority of states will accept civil unions within my lifetime.
And in ANY group, you're bound to have a few bad apples. But I'd rather have the gay community's bad apples than just about everyone else's.
With the NRA, you're going to have a few nuts who don't want their grenade-launching flamethrowers outlawed. With the lefties, you have Earth Firsters who essentially advocate domestic terrorism. With the righties, you've got folks who lump all Muslims with the small number of bad guys and would nuke Mecca. In my beloved Route 66, you've got a smattering of people who, if they had their way, would rip up all the interstates and go back to two-lane roads.
In all, these are not reasonable people. And unreasonable people are in every cranny you look.
When are we going to have Tulsa's first hetero pride parade? I'm just curious what wackos would turn out to protest that?
The radicals in the gay community or any cause/special interest group do little or nothing to advance the cause, nor the public image, if anything they detract from it.
It hasn't been the radical gays that have brought about tolerance and acceptance, it's the neighbor and their partner that are considerate and keep a tidy place, it's your productive co-worker who has busted your paradigm of all gays being degenerates who hide behind bushes to attack our kids as they walk down the street.
I don't have a problem with gay people, people of different races, etc. So long as they respect my cultural background and personal preferences, and don't demand special treatment because of who they are, I'll respect them.
It was radical gays who started the Gay Rights movement. If not for the drag queens at Stonewall, there would be no gay rights movement. Anyone that could pass as straight did. It took some "freaks" that refused to be arrested for congregating that even brought us where we are today.
As far as working for the respect of the community at large: Where would the civil rights movement be without forced integration of the school system? If the NAACP had waited for acceptance, they'd still be waiting today. It had to be forced upon the community at large and let them see that it wasn't the end of the world.
And what is this demand for special treatment you are talking about? Do you have an example where anyone has demanded special treatment?
quote:
As far as working for the respect of the community at large: Where would the civil rights movement be without forced integration of the school system? If the NAACP had waited for acceptance, they'd still be waiting today. It had to be forced upon the community at large and let them see that it wasn't the end of the world.
Whoa! That opens up another can of worms I'm definitely not discussing here. I will say from what I have read, most African Americans are offended at the comparison, but discussing race and sexual orientation in the same thread is just asking for trouble. [/sneaks away]
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
What is it about then? Isn't it about informing the community, and helping breed tolerance? If those are the goals, I'd rather not have you on my team if I were them. It's always laughable when those preaching or begging for tolerance refuse to show it in kind. The "if you don't like it, then just shut up" attitude gets you nowhere....
Like I said before, it's about basically showcasing the "gay community" (loosely applied) to itself. It's about support, and spreading recognition throughout the "gay community" that there are gay companies, gay services, gay churches, and other gay people in this city. And that there are also several PFLAG groups. If you're gay, in this city, you don't have to hide out just because you might think there's nothing here for you.
On the other hand, if heteros show up great. If they don't great. No one is forcing anything on anyone. They have a right to parade, and festivals. They exercise that right.
So when I said before, no one cares about your opinion, it's not personal. I believe that's relatively true. If you're opposed to what the "gay community" does, currently, I don't think they care. And they've heard it all before, you're not saying anything new.
Watch the ones who complain too much.
[}:)]
quote:
So when I said before, no one cares about your opinion, it's not personal. I believe that's relatively true. If you're opposed to what the "gay community" does, currently, I don't think they care. And they've heard it all before, you're not saying anything new.
I think that's a disenguous representation of the gay community and their goals. I think they deeply care about what society at large thinks, hence the mantra of tolerance from the community...if what we think doesn't matter, then why discuss it at all?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Watch the ones who complain too much.
[}:)]
Cute.
Do you actually have something to add to the conversation, or would you just like to exit on a high note...I suggest a good fart joke to cap things off.
Watch the ones that get testy, too.
[}:)]
While I agree that the start of a movement is necessarily radical, I would strongly argue that Dr. King did more for civil rights than the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther's combined.
Not that the parallel is perfect, but you get it.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Watch the ones that get testy, too.
[}:)]
Watch the ones who make double entendres...[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
I think that's a disenguous representation of the gay community and their goals. I think they deeply care about what society at large thinks, hence the mantra of tolerance from the community...if what we think doesn't matter, then why discuss it at all?
I didn't bring this up. Someone who apparently demands their "right" to watch "gay-free" TV started this thread. That's tolerance.
I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of folks that attend the festival and parade are not activists in the political sense. There are volunteers from community organizations, but again, those are all internal, serving primarily the "gay community".
The people that go to those things are just having fun. And while certainly the gay community would love to be treated as human beings, they know damn well they can't force anything on anyone.
quote:
And while certainly the gay community would love to be treated as human beings, they know damn well they can't force anything on anyone.
Thus returning full circle back to my original point. To act in a brash manner that is off-putting to average people makes no sense. I'm sure that in Tulsa the parades are, on average, low-key, but I have seen plenty of others where they're anything but.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
To act in a brash manner that is off-putting to average people makes no sense.
It would make absolutely no sense at all, IF the "average" person were their target audience. As is, if they manage any more people attending that festival, they'll probably have to go to a bigger park. They're doing fine, without your support. Complaining about it changes nothing.
quote:
It would make absolutely no sense at all, IF the "average" person were their target audience. As is, if they manage any more people attending that festival, they'll probably have to go to a bigger park. They're doing fine, without your support. Complaining about it changes nothing.
Thanks, you've stated that multiple times now. I appreciate that you think my opinion means nothing, you can move on now, as this should be very boring from here on out for you.
You've missed the point of my comments entirely, and talking in circles with you is not worth my time. I'll continue the discussion with others who are interested in meaningful discourse.
Hmmm ... I don't see iplaw complaining about "brash" people on the right wing, etc.
I always become deeply suspicious of selective outrage -- especially against gay people. If you're straight, why do you care? What does it matter to you?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Hmmm ... I don't see iplaw complaining about "brash" people on the right wing, etc.
I always become deeply suspicious of selective outrage -- especially against gay people. If you're straight, why do you care? What does it matter to you?
Because this discussion is very pointed about a specific topic. I could discuss any number of issues, but most would be off-topic in this thread.
Honestly I don't give a rip about it as it relates to me, but someone brought up the topic and stated it was a fair representation of the gay community in Tulsa, and that people should go and see what it's about, that put it on the table for discussion. I shared my viewpoint from what I have observed.
It's really interesting how when someone holds a differing view on any part of this subject they're told to just "shut up and go away" or immediately labled.
Well, since you are so obviously animated by this discussion, what other conclusion would I draw?
Open mouth, insert foot.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Well, since you are so obviously animated by this discussion, what other conclusion would I draw?
Open mouth, insert foot.
You could actually employ some critical reading and thinking skills and abstain from drive-by flaming before you draw such myopic conclusions, but that's what we know you best for...your becoming as big of a sniper as Aox.
I get animated when people unfairly categorize others as anti-gay when nothing said so far supports that assertion.
Please. Look in the mirror. I'm not the one who's been chided on this board for personal attacks.
Don't cop out now. You're making the assumption that they want to force tolerance on you, while simultaneously admitting that forcing tolerance is impossible.
They don't care whether you are tolerant or not. Not everyone is, they know that.
Some aren't going to like it. Too bad. Cry, complain, do what you have to. No one is telling you that you personally have to deal with it.
Every time I walk at the park, I see straight people "passionately kissing." Of course I don't care what they do in the privacy of their own homes--I'm not a heterophobe by any means--but...boy does this gross me out! [;)] It seems like ever since that movie "Gone with the Wind" came out, this behavior has been everywhere I look!
That's the problem with this world: Too much love!
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Please. Look in the mirror. I'm not the one who's been chided on this board for personal attacks.
Altruismsuffers doesn't count. Even you know that...
What was previously an interesting discussion has now devolved into a flamewar since MichaelC and Rwarn showed up...
quote:
Don't cop out now. You're making the assumption that they want to force tolerance on you, while simultaneously admitting that forcing tolerance is impossible.
Please quote me what I said that backs this up. Nowhere did I make this assertion, you're getting desperate.
I think MichaelC's got you, man.
But let's call a truce ... let's kiss and make up. I'll warn citizen72 and porky if they don't want to watch.
[}:)]
quote:
I think MichaelC's got you, man.
Please. He's so far off base he's in another discussion entirely. Though it is easy to win an argument that no one but you is having. Only if it were just that easy, I could attribute anything to you that you didn't say and then argue about it and call myself the victor...
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I think MichaelC's got you, man.
But let's call a truce ... let's kiss and make up. I'll warn citizen72 and porky if they don't want to watch.
[}:)]
Indeed. I've said all I need to say on this thread I'm sure. Let the trolls return to speak on that which they have plenty of assumptions, and no direct or indirect knowledge. Homophobia is so simple.
Exit, stage left.
I'm still waiting for you to repost my comments where I said the gay community was trying to force tolerance.
It's easy just to make things up and shadow box, it's quite another to backup your assertions with evidence and argue specifics. You sir are the troll...dodge and weave, then call your opponent a homophobe. I could have outlined your strategy from the outset.
Go ahead and wait iplaw. It'll give those scary gay people more time to convert you.
A Jehovah's Witness walks down the street, a Christmas Parade breaks out. Should said Witness...
A) Complain about it on a forum.
B) Hide, and swear up and down he was never there.
C) Start celebrating Christmas.
D) Get over it.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Go ahead and wait iplaw. It'll give those scary gay people more time to convert you.
More of the same. You made assertions you're
unwilling or unable to backup yet you keep posting more nonsense. I have every right to participate in this discussion, even though you are obstructing any meaningful discussion.
I thought you exited stage left?
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
As far as working for the respect of the community at large: Where would the civil rights movement be without forced integration of the school system? If the NAACP had waited for acceptance, they'd still be waiting today. It had to be forced upon the community at large and let them see that it wasn't the end of the world.
Whoa! That opens up another can of worms I'm definitely not discussing here. I will say from what I have read, most African Americans are offended at the comparison, but discussing race and sexual orientation in the same thread is just asking for trouble. [/sneaks away]
I'd agree that SOME African Americans find it offensive to compare the two. But who are the supposed leaders of African Americans? Preachers. Just because you have a segment that doesn't want to compare the two, doesn't make it a bad analogy.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
While I agree that the start of a movement is necessarily radical, I would strongly argue that Dr. King did more for civil rights than the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther's combined.
Not that the parallel is perfect, but you get it.
Dr. King wasn't for waiting for civil rights.. you have that wrong. No one in the gay rights movement is advocating violence like the Nation of Islam or the Black Panthers.
quote:
Originally posted by okiebybirth
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
As far as working for the respect of the community at large: Where would the civil rights movement be without forced integration of the school system? If the NAACP had waited for acceptance, they'd still be waiting today. It had to be forced upon the community at large and let them see that it wasn't the end of the world.
Whoa! That opens up another can of worms I'm definitely not discussing here. I will say from what I have read, most African Americans are offended at the comparison, but discussing race and sexual orientation in the same thread is just asking for trouble. [/sneaks away]
I'd agree that SOME African Americans find it offensive to compare the two. But who are the supposed leaders of African Americans? Preachers. Just because you have a segment that doesn't want to compare the two, doesn't make it a bad analogy.
Nor does it make it a good one, but I'm not having this discussion remember?[;)]
The Religious protest group that stand holding large signs at the Tulsa Parade are those that appear to be radical and strange it today's standards.
In larger cities those religious protesters would look totally out of place. But here they seem to fit in with the entire make up of the event.
Kind of like WWF Wrestling Icons. The Face and Heal type of conflict.
You are watching un-identified people to the most part in the Pride Parade. It may help if each participant was identified as to their job position and title.
I smile when people speak of not having gays in specific sports, jobs and positoins. As if there are no descrimination laws in effect. LOL
I suppose since it is not politically correct to show public protests of the "Oil War," that the social standard has switched to a tamer type of public displays of emotional expressions. (Dixie Chicks statemetn as an example)
If anyone wants to get remotely near the point of this thread, it would be greatly appreciated.
I magically reappeared, stage right. Twould have been a much better effect if I'd had your rainbow colored tights. [:D]
I understand what you were saying earlier about the PR end of the Parade. It would be lacking, if you were the general public were a PR target. Of course, no matter what is done, the Parade would be lacking in the PR area. So the point, isn't really a point at all. Can't satisfy everyone, and they aren't trying. If you don't like, you don't like it. The parade and festival will go on.
quote:
Originally posted by Editor
If anyone wants to get remotely near the point of this thread, it would be greatly appreciated.
Change the channel.
Ok, now, back to the Parade.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
And while certainly the gay community would love to be treated as human beings, they know damn well they can't force anything on anyone.
Thus returning full circle back to my original point. To act in a brash manner that is off-putting to average people makes no sense. I'm sure that in Tulsa the parades are, on average, low-key, but I have seen plenty of others where they're anything but.
Iplaw, the parade wasn't started to win any respect. It was started to show the community around them that there were gay people among them, and that they were a force. It has since segmented into a way that gay people can recognize that they do have a community and that they do belong. There has been discussion even within the gay community about what is portrayed on television and the like (since the cameras do focus on the "freaks", the gay accounting society isn't going to get airtime). And there are people out there that wish some people wouldn't march, so we could provide our best light. But how sad would it be if we in the gay community started rejecting people and not allowing them to march and be accepted as a part of our community? There is enough negative messages out there if you are gay that for one day of the year I'm sure it's pretty nice for someone to clap for you and accept you even if you like to wear your underwear and show off.
And like what someone has said already, we aren't going to win over anyone who doesn't want to accept us. Our straight allies love our freaks too.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Go ahead and wait iplaw. It'll give those scary gay people more time to convert you.
A Jehovah's Witness walks down the street, a Christmas Parade breaks out. Should said Witness...
A) Complain about it on a forum.
B) Hide, and swear up and down he was never there.
C) Start celebrating Christmas.
D) Get over it.
Okay, I got quite a chuckle out of that one.. [:D][:D]
quote:
And like what someone has said already, we aren't going to win over anyone who doesn't want to accept us.
Using your analogy, what if Dr. King would have adopted this policy?
quote:
Our straight allies love our freaks too.
Really? I have a gay brother in-law that I care for very much, as he is the only brother I have (blood or otherwise). Neither he, nor I appreciate the freaks.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by okiebybirth
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
As far as working for the respect of the community at large: Where would the civil rights movement be without forced integration of the school system? If the NAACP had waited for acceptance, they'd still be waiting today. It had to be forced upon the community at large and let them see that it wasn't the end of the world.
Whoa! That opens up another can of worms I'm definitely not discussing here. I will say from what I have read, most African Americans are offended at the comparison, but discussing race and sexual orientation in the same thread is just asking for trouble. [/sneaks away]
I'd agree that SOME African Americans find it offensive to compare the two. But who are the supposed leaders of African Americans? Preachers. Just because you have a segment that doesn't want to compare the two, doesn't make it a bad analogy.
Nor does it make it a good one, but I'm not having this discussion remember?[;)]
Pretty easy analogy; it's like any movement be it civil rights, women's rights (suffrage)or a number of others. They all have followed the same format: Minority demands rights, majority rejects demands and claims that it takes time and "look how far we've already come!"; minority pushes for rights in the courtroom until they receive those rights; Majority howls and protests until they realize that it's a losing battle and then it's accepted.
Well, now that we're in the politics area...
I think it's disenguous to compare your struggle to that of African Americans or women's suffrage. Both of the aforementioned parties could be discriminated against based upon purely external factors.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
And like what someone has said already, we aren't going to win over anyone who doesn't want to accept us.
Using your analogy, what if Dr. King would have adopted this policy?
quote:
Our straight allies love our freaks too.
Really? I have a gay brother in-law that I care for very much, as he is the only brother I have (blood or otherwise). Neither he, nor I appreciate the freaks.
Dr. King wasn't well liked, in fact he was hated by most whites while he was alive. It was only after his death have we come to realize how much he helped us advance as a nation.
Okay Iplaw, like I said, there is much discussion about the "freaks", and people do want them out of the parade. I just don't feel like being the one to reject them and tell them they aren't wanted; they get that enough from society. Maybe you and your brother-in-law would want to have that discussion with them?
And quit playing that "I have a relative/friend who is gay" card. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Well, now that we're in the politics area...
I think it's disenguous to compare your struggle to that of African Americans or women's suffrage. Both of the aforementioned parties could be discriminated against based upon purely external factors.
True, ours is a internal factor and could be hidden. Just most of us feel like it's a lie and would rather not stay in the closet. Good point.
quote:
Dr. King wasn't well liked, in fact he was hated by most whites while he was alive. It was only after his death have we come to realize how much he helped us advance as a nation.
I hardly think this was the case, but maybe you could point me in the direction of the source you found this tid bit of "fact" in.
quote:
Okay Iplaw, like I said, there is much discussion about the "freaks", and people do want them out of the parade. I just don't feel like being the one to reject them and tell them they aren't wanted; they get that enough from society. Maybe you and your brother-in-law would want to have that discussion with them?
And quit playing that "I have a relative/friend who is gay" card. [:P]
Oh...it's playing a card when I do it, but not when MichaelC does it...how convienient. [:P] I almost wrote you a nasty reply until I saw the tongue...
quote:
Originally posted by okiebybirth
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Well, now that we're in the politics area...
I think it's disenguous to compare your struggle to that of African Americans or women's suffrage. Both of the aforementioned parties could be discriminated against based upon purely external factors.
True, ours is a internal factor and could be hidden. Just most of us feel like it's a lie and would rather not stay in the closet. Good point.
Nor do I want you to stay there...I think we are in agreement about the wackiness factor.
I went to Pamplona last year and saw the PETA "Running of the Nudes" before the running of the bulls. Trust me, it's just as nasty seeing straight people gyrating in their underwear...
The point of the original post on this thread was public display of affection or gay stuff on TV. I ony spoke of the Parade and other public displays to point out it is in real life as well as on TV.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
The point of the original post on this thread was public display of affection or gay stuff on TV. I ony spoke of the Parade and other public displays to point out it is in real life as well as on TV.
I'm actually kind of glad you mentioned it. It's a different situation, but it's the same solution. "Get over it."
How does one actually take the negativity seriously? Somebody is upset because they saw 2 guys kissing on TV, and the obvious solution (changing the channel) is somehow too easy. Like there has to be a more complicated solution like "throw the TV at a homosexual", or "write my congressman", or "wear more manly socks" or "live in Mongolia". Or, as if there are bigger questions like "will TV turn me or my children gay?"
It's rediculous. This thread started in a slightly homophobic manner, and it's difficult to take the thread seriously. Had it not been for the jump off over to the Parade, this thread had no where to go but in the toilet.
Yep.
The same sort of stupid outrage we heard last season with the "war against Christmas" thread.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Dr. King wasn't well liked, in fact he was hated by most whites while he was alive. It was only after his death have we come to realize how much he helped us advance as a nation.
I hardly think this was the case, but maybe you could point me in the direction of the source you found this tid bit of "fact" in.
quote:
Okay Iplaw, like I said, there is much discussion about the "freaks", and people do want them out of the parade. I just don't feel like being the one to reject them and tell them they aren't wanted; they get that enough from society. Maybe you and your brother-in-law would want to have that discussion with them?
And quit playing that "I have a relative/friend who is gay" card. [:P]
Oh...it's playing a card when I do it, but not when MichaelC does it...how convienient. [:P] I almost wrote you a nasty reply until I saw the tongue...
Iplaw, if King was liked by the white masses, then his message would have been moot; there would have been no need for his message and dream. I think we all know that during King's time, many whites wanted to be separated by blacks. And didn't the FBI have a interest in King? I'm sure it wasn't because of the message he was spreading, hmmmm?
quote:
Iplaw, if King was liked by the white masses, then his message would have been moot; there would have been no need for his message and dream. I think we all know that during King's time, many whites wanted to be separated by blacks. And didn't the FBI have a interest in King? I'm sure it wasn't because of the message he was spreading, hmmmm?
I think it depends on what area of the country you were looking at. In the South I would tend to agree with you, but other places, not so much.
Anyways, I think I made a compelling argument as to why the African American analogy doesn't hold water in the first place. There are many practices/beliefs that we could categorize as a "minority" viewpoint, but that doesn't afford them all a direct connection to the spirit of what Dr. King was trying to bring about.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Yep.
The same sort of stupid outrage we heard last season with the "war against Christmas" thread.
It's funny how there are at least a half a dozen Federal cases being tried right now concerning the display of the nativity and so forth, but it's not a "Christmas" issue. I agree the phrase "War on Christmas" is rediculous, but what would you call those lawsuits?
I stated clearly that my analogy wanst perfect per King v. Nation of Islam. However, my POINT was that the more radical of groups often dont get anything constructive done.
But to kiss up to ye' ole' admin:
I am not terribly offended by kissing of a gay couple on TV. Nor am I offended by a gay pride parade. I do, however, question the advances the more radical of gay rights advocates hope to gain by extremely flamboyant displays such as those seen at San Francisco's big gay-la.
But... if a man wants to dance down the street in his underwear, far be it for me to stop him. In fact, if I saw more random people dancing happily in underwear - I'd probably chuckle a lot more during the day.
For the thing on television...Yea, turn the channel if you don't like it. I can understand someones frustration if they are watching a show that they think will not have something that they don't like or approve of on it, and then it suddenly does though. I don't like watching vivid violence and gore type stuff. So if I were watching a show that I didnt expect something like that to be on and suddenly it did, well I might be offended, mostly because they would be changing the nature of the show, that unspoken contract that the show was supposed to be what I had expected it to be lol. So the question may be,.. Is this show you are watching not being the type of show its supposed to be? Or, Over all does the rest of the show make up for those "startling moments" lol. If not, change the channel. Its now, unfortunately, not the kind of show you want to watch.
As for the parade...
I don't think there is any one reason people join the parade or go to it. Community acceptance, support within the community, rebellious expression, fun, shock value. Completely different, contradictory, and befuddling, but there ya have it.
I think one of the reasons some things are accepted that IMO should not be, is that since many gays are rejected because they are different, seen as sexually immoral, gross, etc. It then becomes hard for many to then reject others, even if they may see annother group that way. In essence they buy into the very prejudice that is placed upon them.
Blacks were seen as ignorant and stupid. Fought hard to have the right to go to integrated and quality schools. Then there was a generation of blacks that went to school "carrying boom boxes instead of books". If you were seen as being smart and bookish, you were considered "acting white" and denying your own culture.
There is nothing intrinsic about being black that says you cant be bookish and smart. There is nothing intrinsic about being gay that says you cant be sexually and socially "normal". But each of these groups is affected by a similar beast which creates these, and many other, contradictions. The similarity is Prejudice.
Many gays, especially the young, find that they are rejected by their families, churches, all those supposed bastions of goodness, and guess where they then find themselves? What kind of groups and people are then likely to accept them? Not always the best kind. And when they hear that they are immoral but cant change it, see that it really isnt immoral or a choice but the way they are, imagine how that can make other things that those good people say, sound? The reason,logic, and social norms that those "good people" say are right, come shattering down. What legitimacy do they then have? You were wrong about this, why should I believe you about that? Some then do all kinds of things becase the moral compass has been effectively rendered a lie. Some do things just to be rebellious. After being forced to do one thing bad, bad because the "good people" say it is, to heck with it I will do anything I want. I can't be good. Why shouldnt I do that? They say being gay is wrong too. Who are they to know and tell me whats right and wrong? Most gays are not like that, but enough of them do have those thoughts, especially early on, that it leads to a lot of people making some bad choices and going down some unfortunate paths.
Do good people push gays away, out of their churches, families, friendships, thinking that "The pain of being thrown out and being rjected " will be enough to make them reconsider being gay and change? Do they really think they are so desirable to be around that the gay person will do anything to come back and be with them? After hurting them and calling them immoral, etc.? It doesn't make any sense. If your the good person and you want someone else to be good, you let them learn from you how to be good. If all the "good people" push the gay person away, who will the gay person then be left being with to learn from?
Where are all those caring churches, families, and friends at the pride parades? And notice the difference between the people who have some of those things there and those who do not.
nice post Artist.
Agreed. It's certainly a lot more thoughtful than the excuses for intolerance from the apologists and outright bigots.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Agreed. It's certainly a lot more thoughtful than the excuses for intolerance from the apologists and outright bigots.
Who on this thread had been bigoted? I didn't see anyone, save the OP who stated he was grossed out by gay men kissing, other than that it's been a relatively decent discussion, other than your occasional flame posts without any substance...
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I don't think there is any one reason people join the parade or go to it. Community acceptance, support within the community, rebellious expression, fun, shock value. Completely different, contradictory, and befuddling, but there ya have it.
I think that's the wonderful thing about the parade and festival. There's a real sense of community helping itself. There is a roughly defined "support system" here for the "gay community" at large, and it very much appears during the Festival.
And, the "gay community" for lack of a better term, is extremely diverse. Transgendered and cross-dressers appear there, but you'll also find Log Cabin Republicans, and a whole bunch of people that wouldn't look out of place at a Baptist Church. There's really no way to categorize the "gay community" as one simple object.
How do you post without me ever seeing you under the Online Users tab...you must be a posting ninja.......I thought I responded fast.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
How do you post without me ever seeing you under the Online Users tab...you must be a posting ninja.......I thought I responded fast.
I shoot from the north forty. Logged off. Old habit.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
And like what someone has said already, we aren't going to win over anyone who doesn't want to accept us.
Using your analogy, what if Dr. King would have adopted this policy?
quote:
Our straight allies love our freaks too.
Really? I have a gay brother in-law that I care for very much, as he is the only brother I have (blood or otherwise). Neither he, nor I appreciate the freaks.
Amazing, IPLAW, we have a thing in common. I myself had a beloved uncle, who happened to be gay, for whom I had and still have, the highest love and regard for. A true character in the best sense of the word, there are many good and treasured stories I could tell here of the good times we all had in his presence. I miss him so much.
As for the freaks, they are a minority within that community, but I understand your point.
Regrettably, there are some in inevitably any community-and this is not exclusively limited to the more extreme members of the gay community- that do seem to believe that tolerance and acceptance is a one-way street, that they are owed great deference without providing much if any respect in return. Nobody ever told them that ya can't get something for nothing. Respect breeds respect, ya gotta give it to get it.
Acceptance and tolerance begins in the home or in ones daily surroundings; it has to be taught and carefully cultivated. In my case, having an uncle who happened to be gay, I think it made it easier for me to accept others who are gay. The fact that I work in my day job in a profession where so many of the men involved in it happen to be gay is another factor; sooner or later, I'm bound to find myself making a friend or two, or seeking professional advice from a trusted colleague. For me, they are all beloved family, friends and valued colleagues.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I know I'd hate it if everyone thought of me as the most obnoxious of the heterosexual world.
I don't know, some people think that of me, and it doesn't bother me one whit!