Have you all seen the Pearl District Website created by the Pearl District Association? I love their take on urban living. Here is their mission statement.
quote:
To reinvent the art of city life in Tulsa. To develop from the grass-roots an urban neighborhood that is diverse, intriguing and charming; that adapts to the new realities of the 21st Century and has the character, humanity and convenience of the best, traditional cities; that offers a radical and attractive alternative to suburban living; where it is possible to work, play and shop without recourse to a car; where neighbors work to foster good schools and safe, attractive streets and civic spaces; and where a vibrant, civic environment is matched by enlightened public policies. To do all this before it is too late.
Here is the link to the site. Enjoy!
The Pearl (//%22http://www.tulsapearl.com/index.html%22)
Yawn. Would rather see more syncronicity going on in the Brady Distric.
The rail tracks should be the borders for these districts. And, there should be fewer disections of downtown. Look into the tunnel system as a district. How about the Tulsa Underground district. The track disecting the Pearl is a huge liability....
I do like what has happend around central park. That area does need contiued support. Especially residential.
I would like to see more done around the Blue dome and Brady District as well. Its not as though people from outside the Pearl District picked that area as a project to work on. The Pearl District idea and plan was created by the people who lived there and who decided they wanted to make a change. They took action and got results. If other areas of town want to do the same, I don't see anything stopping them from implementing form based codes, future development plans, etc. If I lived in the Pearl District I would be focusing on that area as my first priority not the Brady District.
I look for forward to the second and third ponds being installed. I think they will definitely spur more renewal and make the area "visibly distinct" and having "fresh potential" in the average persons eyes.
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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
The track disecting the Pearl is a huge liability....
That is also the same track that INCOG and others seem to think will be Tulsa's first light rail line someday. Those Pearl people are looking ahead to that. Today's liability is tomorrow's opportunity.
I generally like the Pearl District plans, but these canals are a bit of a sticking point for me. I've been told that in order to keep water in these canals it will require expensive pumps that are prone to breakdown and require expensive maintenance/repairs. I don't think the city should take on this extra expense when we can't even afford to fix the fountain at Swan Lake. I am also skeptical about affordable housing being offered in this redevelopment considering that when the Village at Central Park was pitched to the Infill Task Force they claimed that the units would start at around $150,000.
The Villages at Central Park townhouses were in that price range when they were first being built. They were well done and there was plenty of demand for them that caused the price to go up. Now they sell for more (welcome to free market capitalism).
Now people want to build more housing in the area that is more in line with the overall average price range for Tulsa. If they build good ones and there is demand for them, their value might increase as well.
What is wrong with infill housing that increases in value and spurs more affordable housing?
The problem is when you are receiving TIF's and other publicly funded incentives for your development I think you should keep the promises made in order to secure that funding. I'll be sure to check if any units have been sold for $150,000 as you suggest.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
The problem is when you are receiving TIF's and other publicly funded incentives for your development I think you should keep the promises made in order to secure that funding. I'll be sure to check if any units have been sold for $150,000 as you suggest.
But if the demand is pushing the house prices up what do you do? Means test people if they want to buy a property?
If he makes lots of money on the development good for him, he'll likely reinvest and cause others to do the same.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
What is wrong with infill housing that increases in value and spurs more affordable housing?
Well. They tore down an aging Senior Center and put in an Arts and Crafts Center - seemingly for the private use of Village residents.
Next they dug an enormous hole and hired a first-grader to design a retaining wall.
Then they said that to make the whole thing profitable we would need to spend $45M to renovate the area.
Saaaaayyyy those park boulders have some twins across the street on a private residence? How'd day ged dare?
Have you seen the new buildings, BTW? WOOD frames now, not that steel.
The prob is that there is a handful of slumlords who are sitting on their property hoping that the taxpayers are going to bail them out with a buyout or whatnot, all the while making themselves look like the Mother Theresa of regentrification.
You know what you get when you add a bunch of connectors together? A pearl necklace . . .
I have been painting murals in the new Central Center and will be doing so for the next 5 weeks. Looks to me the people using the central center are not the people living in the Village, unless its mostly populated by the elderly, the poor, oh and some cloggers lol.
I am very glad the city was persuaded to make that water retention pond into a nice park. This spring people will be able to start enjoying it and begin to see how nice it is. Over time as the plants start to grow and fill in, that park will equal or rival Woodward IMO.
You urbophiles call this 'sustainable' development? That is like calling a person in a coma 'dynamic.'
Now in order for the damn thing to work they need 'canals.' Nope tearing down the senior center and building a butt-ugly private park was not enough. Now they need canals. THAT was not in the Channel 8 story was it, now?
How did dose big rocks make it across the street?
The existing development is not sustainable, it is merely a component. Through form-based codes and "intelligent design" then the area may become a sustainable development.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I generally like the Pearl District plans, but these canals are a bit of a sticking point for me. I've been told that in order to keep water in these canals it will require expensive pumps that are prone to breakdown and require expensive maintenance/repairs. I don't think the city should take on this extra expense when we can't even afford to fix the fountain at Swan Lake.
The Swan Lake Neighborhood was awarded V2025 funds that will be used to replace the fountain. The entire venture is very expensive. The neighborhood has been raising funds for some time.
The canals and the retention pond are creative resolutions to a long time Elm Creek flood plain issue. The TIF you refer to is on the Home Depot, and I'm certainly glad that we can get something back for the eyesore (plus all of the money I spend there working on my old house). If the Pearl District development takes off, this will be a great infil development and a nice economic driver for the core.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
You urbophiles call this 'sustainable' development? That is like calling a person in a coma 'dynamic.'
Now in order for the damn thing to work they need 'canals.' Nope tearing down the senior center and building a butt-ugly private park was not enough. Now they need canals. THAT was not in the Channel 8 story was it, now?
How did dose big rocks make it across the street?
The canals are nothing new for the "Pearl District" seems like you are just discovering them or something lol. The city was going to put in water retention ponds, and "ditches" to connect them, well before there even was a Pearl District but the people living in the area wanted to see if they could make both items better and into something that would benefit the area more than just being for flood control. Thus now they are called parks and canals but they are still part of the cities original flood control plans for the area.
As for the sustainable development, the people pushing the Pearl District are mainly pushing for Form Based Codes. So that any NEW development in the area will EVENTUALLY create a walkable, sustainable, district. It is hoped that both the "experimental" form based codes and the water retention pond beautification plans will spur new development in the area.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
You urbophiles call this 'sustainable' development? That is like calling a person in a coma 'dynamic.'
Now in order for the damn thing to work they need 'canals.' Nope tearing down the senior center and building a butt-ugly private park was not enough. Now they need canals. THAT was not in the Channel 8 story was it, now?
How did dose big rocks make it across the street?
"Urbophile"? Cute. I like that. I guess it makes you an urbophobe. Fear of urbanity - you don't want to see it happen, just like an arachnophobe doesn't want to see spiders.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
You urbophiles call this 'sustainable' development? That is like calling a person in a coma 'dynamic.'
Now in order for the damn thing to work they need 'canals.' Nope tearing down the senior center and building a butt-ugly private park was not enough. Now they need canals. THAT was not in the Channel 8 story was it, now?
How did dose big rocks make it across the street?
"private park" pancakes?...
"now they need canals?" you really don't have a ****ing clue as to what you are talking about... go back and look at the 6th street infill plan(from 11/05)... the planners had the canals, the other three ponds and the revitalization of the entire area from 244 to 11th and the IDL to utica in there from the get go...
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
The street people will love swimming in the ponds.
Sounds as though you may be speaking from personal experience...?
If they "swim in the ponds" they will likely smell better..[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
The street people will love swimming in the ponds.
Sounds as though you may be speaking from personal experience...?
[}:)]
That's so sweet.......
Nope, I'm not speaking from personal experience, nor am I pond scum like you.
Just for the record, I think this "Elm Creek flood issue" has been pumped up into a larger problem than it really is to facilitate the building of these canals, IMO. BTW, I like the village at Central Park(or is it Centennial Park?), the detention pond, Family and Children Services, and the Central Community Center(I'm sure I'll like the murals, too). I admire and appreciate what Jamie Jamison has accomplished, he clearly is one of the good guys. I still remain skeptical, however, about these canals and the construction of new affordable housing in the Pearl District.
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Originally posted by Double A
I still remain skeptical, however, about these canals and the construction of new affordable housing in the Pearl District.
Exactly since when does this city lack in "affordable housing", talk about a problem that does not exist.
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Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I still remain skeptical, however, about these canals and the construction of new affordable housing in the Pearl District.
Exactly since when does this city lack in "affordable housing", talk about a problem that does not exist.
In the context of this conversation... Could one define what we are referring to as "affordable housing"...
Affordable for purchase..? or the ilk of ghastly rental property..?
Or are we looking at the somewhat larger picture of making property ownership achievable so residents have a vested interest in the success of the "Pearl District"...
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
The Village at Central Park has the ugliest tenements I've ever seen in Tulsa. I think in 20 years it will look like a bad neighborhood in a decaying city core. That's just my opinion. You can always hope against all hope that I'm wrong.
A picture speaks a thousand words.....!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/BigDig19.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Dig_22.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/BigDig25.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/BigDig13.jpg)
[:O]
Hideous lines. Boxey as a Chrysler K car.
Yeah, BF, a private park. That was the whole idea was to enhance the value of the Village and take care of a drainage problem. I know what I am talking about, alright. What should have been a drainage basin turned into a monstrous hazard.
I spent seven years working with the homeless mentally ill downtown. No urbophobe, here.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Yeah, BF, a private park. That was the whole idea was to enhance the value of the Village and take care of a drainage problem. I know what I am talking about, alright. What should have been a drainage basin turned into a monstrous hazard.
BULL****... You can throw that against the wall all you want, it won't stick...
it is no more of a private park than zink...
the park and the new senior center were part of the comprehensive plan to revitalize that entire neighborhood and you know it...
that park was not some pork barrel project for Jamie...
get off your ****ing high horse...
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Just for the record, I think this "Elm Creek flood issue" has been pumped up into a larger problem than it really is to facilitate the building of these canals, IMO. BTW, I like the village at Central Park(or is it Centennial Park?), the detention pond, Family and Children Services, and the Central Community Center(I'm sure I'll like the murals, too). I admire and appreciate what Jamie Jamison has accomplished, he clearly is one of the good guys. I still remain skeptical, however, about these canals and the construction of new affordable housing in the Pearl District.
the elm creek flooding was/is a very legitimate concern... just ask the property owners on 6th if the building has ever flooded (just don't ask k)...
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
The Village at Central Park has the ugliest tenements I've ever seen in Tulsa. I think in 20 years it will look like a bad neighborhood in a decaying city core. That's just my opinion. You can always hope against all hope that I'm wrong.
A picture speaks a thousand words.....!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/BigDig19.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Dig_22.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/BigDig25.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/BigDig13.jpg)
[:O]
I notice the ugly tenement buildings are way back in the background of the photographs. I think that makes my point.
The rock-lined retention ponds will be a great place for snakes, though.
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
The rock-lined retention ponds will be a great place for snakes, though.
...and, horney toads, skinks, and the mammals that eat them. Fish and birds, too. Are you scared of nature in general, or just snakes?
UR right, BF, it is not about JJ. Clearly there are a group of 'stakeholders' that have a full-time lobbyist with the City. That group has a vested interest in securing pork for their projects to the exclusion of other developments.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
UR right, BF, it is not about JJ. Clearly there are a group of 'stakeholders' that have a full-time lobbyist with the City. That group has a vested interest in securing pork for their projects to the exclusion of other developments.
What other developments? Where do you live? Is that what this is about? Maybe if you shared your own agenda, you could find some neighbors to help you, too.
Brookside and my district is doing just fine, thankee.
There is not an unlimited amount of TIF's, CDBG's, or tax outlays available for all the projects 'necessary' to create the Disneyesque dreamworld urbophiles require.
I have always dug those brick buildings and thought the hood there has a lot of potential. Those poverty-stricken residents demand a canal? HAx4!!
I will surely get off my high horse sometime but right now it is too fun giving ya'll a hard time about it all.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
UR right, BF, it is not about JJ. Clearly there are a group of 'stakeholders' that have a full-time lobbyist with the City. That group has a vested interest in securing pork for their projects to the exclusion of other developments.
awe, c'mon man brookside has gotten a ****load of work done...
So, drowning is the new cool? Let me write that one down.[;)]
Bruno has a point, ya know. You're projecting. Brookside gets stuff...and they do it the same way the Pearl folks do.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Brookside and my district is doing just fine, thankee.
There is not an unlimited amount of TIF's, CDBG's, or tax outlays available for all the projects 'necessary' to create the Disneyesque dreamworld urbophiles require.
I have always dug those brick buildings and thought the hood there has a lot of potential. Those poverty-stricken residents demand a canal? HAx4!!
I will surely get off my high horse sometime but right now it is too fun giving ya'll a hard time about it all.
what exactly is your beef?
is it that this is a waste of resources? that this money should have been spent elsewhere?
or that the neighborhood is too far gone and should continue to be written off?
somebody seems to like buying his "ugly" buildings... your opinions about this topic seems a little personal... do you have something against jamie?
oh thats right your a "no tax" guy... **** all... let's take all your brookside pavers back...
get over it...
the flood control had to happen... it was done in manner that (when mature) will be multipurpose and great urban park... if you can't see that you are blind...
the neighborhood needed a nidus for fostering revitalization and that is what the park will be and the 6th street comp plan can have a huge impact on tulsa as a whole...
**** man, 25 years ago maple ridge was written off...
Well, now, Bside has been a thirty year project if my information is correct. The hoodrats and the investors there have paid their dues.
And witness what happens when the hoodrats objected to the Eastbrooke PUD. The efforts at having Gray etal comply with the meticulously developed Brookside Infill Project were ridiculed and maligned.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Well, now, Bside has been a thirty year project if my information is correct. The hoodrats and the investors there have paid their dues.
And witness what happens when the hoodrats objected to the Eastbrooke PUD. The efforts at having Gray etal comply with the meticulously developed Brookside Infill Project were ridiculed and maligned.
The Pearl District has been subject to flooding since it was built up in the 1920's. By your rationale, Brookside are the ones cutting in line, not Pearl people.
By the way, nobody's begrudging Brookside its due. Those folks do work hard. Good for them.
Take a look at the big picture, guy. Tulsa's got one of lowest tax burdens in the nation. Not coincidentally, they have a $4 billion "to-do" list. Assuming nothing breaks and nothing new is added, it would take Tulsa about 50 years to catch up.
Is it any surprise, therefore, that places like Brookside and Pearl are aggressively pursuing a piece of the pie (cupcake)? What would you have them do?
Brookside and Pearl are in the same liferaft and you don't even know it. You should be trying to wave down a ship or something, and instead you eye your neighbor as if they were a turkey leg.
And yet, you seem to be a low-tax guy. Reconcile that for me. I don't think that you can.
PS Besides a red herring, what's this Eastbrooke thing again? Isn't there another thread for this?
Brookside has been long overdue for upgrades. I may be wrong (WHAT? NO!) but the areas most affected by flooding in the 'Pearl' were shotgun shacks that were demolished to make way for 444.
I must confess that I lust for the Tuloil building . . .
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Brookside has been long overdue for upgrades. I may be wrong (WHAT? NO!) but the areas most affected by flooding in the 'Pearl' were shotgun shacks that were demolished to make way for 444.
I must confess that I lust for the Tuloil building . . .
And maybe the Pearl is due, too. I think you might be a little uninformed. The Tuloil is in the floodplain according to their plan. A little less sexy when it sits in three feet of water, huh?
You should really look at their plan, (Reinventing the Pearl District (//%22http://tulsapearl.com/%22), in the "links" section). Its all about fixing the flood problem and simultaneously doing huge amounts of redevelopment. Lots more redevelopment, btw, than you cats in Brookside would ever allow. That's fine. But who do you think is going to be paying the bills in twenty years, a low-density Brookside or a high-density Pearl? They could end up subsidizing your comfortable, tract house, lifestyle and keeping the development pressure off of Brookside. Again, big picture.
BF, your website is funny! If you are hankering to use naughty lingo on this board, why not really let it loose over there? Why do I bother wasting energy on the Central Park bamboozle? It looks like the 'good old boy' network has been replaced by the 'green old boy' network. Four legs good, two legs better. That is all.
Tuloil under three feet of water? Once in five hundred years I am sure. It has been suggested that an additional $35M would bring the Pearl to where it needs to be.
The Bside infill plan also recommends higher density along Peoria, don'tcha know.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
If you are hankering to use naughty lingo on this board, why not really let it loose over there?
tsk, tsk, tsk... you assume far too much...
profanity is an art form... some people are just gifted... it makes for a wonderful straw man... it quickly flushes out the ad hominems...
anywhoooooo, my mobile reception sucks... any tips? you think it is my helmet?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Just for the record, I think this "Elm Creek flood issue" has been pumped up into a larger problem than it really is to facilitate the building of these canals, IMO.
I have seen a picture a dramatic flood rescue that took place under the bridge just east of the downtown Home Depot. A fire fighter is rescuing a woman from a car in seven or eight feet of raging water.
There used to be a line on the bridge support that marked the high water.
That is why they need flood control on Elm Creek.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
...It has been suggested that an additional $35M would bring the Pearl to where it needs to be...
Yes, and you have poo-pooed the idea: even though your own neighborhood uses the same strategies; even though the buildings you like are subject to flooding; even though people's lives and livelihoods are risk; and even though a propersous neighborhood over there, helps your neighborhood, too....
I've asked you for your ideas several times. Is your tank empty?
I be *****! The foil should actually help reception of your US Cellular, Verizon, Sprint, or Cricket service. Not so much on Death Star Wireless.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
I be *****! The foil should actually help reception of your US Cellular, Verizon, Sprint, or Cricket service. Not so much on Death Star Wireless.
what about cingular (or i guess it is att, now)?
Sorry CL, did not mean to slight you. If you want to compare apples to crabapples continue pressing the notion that the 6thP area is the equivalent of Bside I guess I cannot stop you.
This theme - which comes first private or public investment - has vexed urban planners for years and surely will not be solved here.
I agree that flood control was necessary. I disagree that spending $35M on that area will ever be worth it.
Sorry, BF. Cingular is now the new Death Star. If the foil does not help w/reception, nothing will.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
I agree that flood control was necessary. I disagree that spending $35M on that area will ever be worth it.
I just read the entire 80-something page document and I'll say I'm impressed. IF all the infrastructure promises come true, there is no question that developers will show up. Hell, I'll be building there in five years.
So, its necessary, but not worth it. That's razor-sharp stuff there, Tim.
Thirty years ago, Brookside was a crabapple. Twenty years ago, Cherry Street was most definitely a crabapple called 15th. But you're right, Tim. Enough is enough. We should just give up. Its high time we let all those places that aren't as nice as your neighborhood go to pot.
Maybe the magic flood control fairy will flit by and save us all.
I am saying that the big ugly rocklined pit was not worth it, tearing down the senior center for an arts and crafts center was not worth it, absolutely not.
Cherry Street did not need any public monies to do its thing. Just some nice 'cherries' if'n you know your history.
Maple Ridge would have been an expressway if the urban planners would have had their way.
Floyd, what is preventing you from buying now? Get in early, beat the rush.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
I am saying that the big ugly rocklined pit was not worth it, tearing down the senior center for an arts and crafts center was not worth it, absolutely not.
Cherry Street did not need any public monies to do its thing. Just some nice 'cherries' if'n you know your history.
Maple Ridge would have been an expressway if the urban planners would have had their way.
Floyd, what is preventing you from buying now? Get in early, beat the rush.
The community center is on the Tulsa Parks Dept. website...http://www.cityoftulsa.org/Recreation/Parks/CommCenter.asp
Interesting picture, there, btw.
(http://www.cityoftulsa.org/Recreation/Parks/images/central2.jpg)
If I recall correctly (anyone?), that red box is where the old center was. Dude, the "pit" is flood control. And even a magic flood control fairy couldn't suspend the senior center in mid air!
/And Cherry Street didn't flood.
//Part of Maple Ridge
is an expressway, thanks to urban planners. ?
///Floyd's probably deciding whether he needs to budget for life boats.
I've said it before on this forum, but it deserves to be said again. One man's wasted tax dollars are another man's well spent tax dollars! It's all really subjective. Get over it!
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
I am saying that the big ugly rocklined pit was not worth it, tearing down the senior center for an arts and crafts center was not worth it, absolutely not.
Cherry Street did not need any public monies to do its thing. Just some nice 'cherries' if'n you know your history.
Maple Ridge would have been an expressway if the urban planners would have had their way.
Floyd, what is preventing you from buying now? Get in early, beat the rush.
I don't get it. Why do you keep complaining about the old senior center being torn down and replaced with the new building? The old senior center was smaller and not built to be wheelchair accessible. The new one is larger and is wheelchair accessible, and yes they allow seniors in the building lol. Plus it has more room for more events, classes, bridge clubs, etc. etc. for seniors. Trust me 90% of the people I see going into the thing every day are seniors. I will be there just about every work day for a while and will start asking the people who used the old one and the new one which they like better. Did you use the old building? Are you using the new one?
Sorry, TShane. These no-tax guys drive me bonkers, as evidenced.
My low-tax grandad used to say, "keep taxes local". By that he meant, don't let the State and Feds take more than their fair share. To him, local taxes were a better investment because they kept his property value up. He was eighty years old and still voting "yes" for every school bond.
He's been replaced by a bunch of folks who sit there watching their houses burn, cooking up conspiracies about who started it, and fiddling with the notion of turning the hose on...cause, ya know...water's expensive...
Criminy! What's yer game plan? Hunker down and wait for armageddon? What if the end of the world isn't next Tuesday after all? The free market and magic fairies can only do so much.
In the competition for scarce resources this was . . . extravagent.
So who will clean that pond, Chicken Litt**, your fairies? Who will weed around those dopey boulders? The fairies?
You talk about Zink, the old boulders that graced Crow Creek are all falling down in the creek. The paths are unused and weedgrown.
I think the City and County have TOO much infrastructure and should look at selling some of that park space, not making it more expensive to keep up.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
In the competition for scarce resources this was . . . extravagent.
So who will clean that pond, Chicken Litt**, your fairies? Who will weed around those dopey boulders? The fairies?
You talk about Zink, the old boulders that graced Crow Creek are all falling down in the creek. The paths are unused and weedgrown.
I think the City and County have TOO much infrastructure and should look at selling some of that park space, not making it more expensive to keep up.
In response to your questions,
Tulsans will do that work. And they'll spend their pay right back here, too. And those'll be jobs that can
never be shipped to China.
As for the rest...
(http://content.bt.com/distribution/btvision/universal/images/movies/im1/Big-Lebowski-The_im1.jpg)
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
And if you think I'm calling you a cheapskate, you might be right.
Oklahoma's combined Federal, State, & Local tax rate rankings.
2006: 47th
2005: 46th
2004: 45th
2003: 48th
2002: 48th
2001: 49th
2000: 50th
taxfoundation.org (//%22http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/336.html%22)
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Floyd, what is preventing you from buying now? Get in early, beat the rush.
Don't live in T-Town at the moment. May be buying shortly anyway.
If you don't mind hookers in the hood, moving to the Pearl now will probably pay dividends later. I know there are many dedicated people working on dealing with this problem and if successful it could disappear quite quickly.
You know, JJ brings some of this ill will on himself, like the time he went running to the media to scream about how incensed he was because he didn't get 20 million for these canals on the last third penny, when people were out fighting like hell to get the woefully inadequate $500,000 for the Comp Plan Update included.
OK OK I plead guilty. Watch the pennies and the dollars take care of themselves. I am a spending hawk, penny-pincher, tightwad, whatever.
I resent 'developers' acting like taking tax dollars is a heroic thing, worthy of a Congressional Medal, and that we should worship the ground they walk on and pay whatever they say we should because they have visions and dreams that surpass our ability to comprehend.
Furthermore, there is absolutely no way 'Tulsans' have a lock on the yardwork on the park. Chances are this will be done by immigrant labor, if not from Mexico than by County Tulsans. And BTW the work is piling up: if we had recyclable drink containers we could pay for the yardwork just by dredging the pond.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
OK OK I plead guilty. Watch the pennies and the dollars take care of themselves. I am a spending hawk, penny-pincher, tightwad, whatever.
I resent 'developers' acting like taking tax dollars is a heroic thing, worthy of a Congressional Medal, and that we should worship the ground they walk on and pay whatever they say we should because they have visions and dreams that surpass our ability to comprehend.
Furthermore, there is absolutely no way 'Tulsans' have a lock on the yardwork on the park. Chances are this will be done by immigrant labor, if not from Mexico than by County Tulsans. And BTW the work is piling up: if we had recyclable drink containers we could pay for the yardwork just by dredging the pond.
Begrudging someone else's neighborhood the improvements they need to succeed is not being a hawk. Maybe a crabby 'ole bluejay, but not a hawk.
Considering both neighborhoods are part of the same city and ultimately share the same fate, then I'd say there is a bit of sandy-headed ostrich showing, too.
For the record, I don't think developers are entitled to my money, either. But I don't think that is what's happening in Brookside or Pearl.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Just for the record, I think this "Elm Creek flood issue" has been pumped up into a larger problem than it really is to facilitate the building of these canals, IMO.
I have seen a picture a dramatic flood rescue that took place under the bridge just east of the downtown Home Depot. A fire fighter is rescuing a woman from a car in seven or eight feet of raging water.
There used to be a line on the bridge support that marked the high water.
That is why they need flood control on Elm Creek.
That is in the Tracy Park Gunboat Park Area, not the Pearl. BTW, we now have flood control in Elm Creek. You really make this too easy, I support the Detention pond that was built in central park to address those problems, these canals are a different story.
Anybody care to address my concerns about the pumps? I find it a little odd that it has been ignored or a response is taking so long to formulate.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
I am saying that the big ugly rocklined pit was not worth it, tearing down the senior center for an arts and crafts center was not worth it, absolutely not.
Cherry Street did not need any public monies to do its thing. Just some nice 'cherries' if'n you know your history.
Maple Ridge would have been an expressway if the urban planners would have had their way.
Floyd, what is preventing you from buying now? Get in early, beat the rush.
All Cherry St needed was to be lined with HP zoned neighborhhods filled with self starters and real risk takers willing to sacrifice for their collective vision. I've lived on Cherry Street most of my life, I've seen it at it's best and it's worst. I remember when Lincoln Plaza was a blighted, abandoned, Lincoln Elementary. If it were not for the neighborhoods around Cherry St. willingness to sacrifice their rights to what they could do under normal zoning we might not even be talking about Cherry Street or the Pearl. Hell, if it would have been up to the Metro Chamber Goons there would be a mid rise Commerce and Financial District stretching from Riverview to Lewiston Gardens, CBD style.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Well, now, Bside has been a thirty year project if my information is correct. The hoodrats and the investors there have paid their dues.
And witness what happens when the hoodrats objected to the Eastbrooke PUD. The efforts at having Gray etal comply with the meticulously developed Brookside Infill Project were ridiculed and maligned.
The Pearl District has been subject to flooding since it was built up in the 1920's. By your rationale, Brookside are the ones cutting in line, not Pearl people.
By the way, nobody's begrudging Brookside its due. Those folks do work hard. Good for them.
Take a look at the big picture, guy. Tulsa's got one of lowest tax burdens in the nation. Not coincidentally, they have a $4 billion "to-do" list. Assuming nothing breaks and nothing new is added, it would take Tulsa about 50 years to catch up.
Is it any surprise, therefore, that places like Brookside and Pearl are aggressively pursuing a piece of the pie (cupcake)? What would you have them do?
Brookside and Pearl are in the same liferaft and you don't even know it. You should be trying to wave down a ship or something, and instead you eye your neighbor as if they were a turkey leg.
And yet, you seem to be a low-tax guy. Reconcile that for me. I don't think that you can.
PS Besides a red herring, what's this Eastbrooke thing again? Isn't there another thread for this?
Same life raft, huh? You know what, I totally agree. That's why we all need to stop fighting each other for scarce resources, find new revenues, focus those resources, and fully fund a first class Comprehensive Plan that will benefit everyone. JJ's PR campaign at the first whiff of trouble with the East End deal was really transparent. I wonder if KTUL will give equal time for all the other neighborhoods with plans approved by the Council?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Same life raft, huh? You know what, I totally agree. That's why we all need to stop fighting each other for scarce resources, find new revenues, focus those resources, and fully fund a first class Comprehensive Plan that will benefit everyone. JJ's PR campaign at the first whiff of trouble with the East End deal was really transparent. I wonder if KTUL will give equal time for all the other neighborhoods with plans approved by the Council?
That does a better job illustrating what one may object to regarding the whole 'Pearl' thing than anything I have said.
doublea, you have succinctly made my point, too. Thanks. I've been told by more than one person that JJ's first career was as a markerting guy. And if that gives the Pearl District people an unfair advantage in terms of getting attention, I can understand that sentiment.
It's a wise point you are making. Neighborhoods shouldn't have to resort being the "squeeky wheel" in order to get something done. It does show a lack of a coordinated game plan in this town, and I, too, think that should be fixed.
Also, thank you for showing Tim that bagging on his neighbors and their lives, cooking up conspiracies, and pretending to be a budget hawk and efficiency expert really doesn't move things forward. Its time wasted on the wrong target.
At least I did not say Mohammed Atta was behind the remodel! One man's conspiracy is another's strategic planning committee I suppose.
All I can say is that I am glad to see something done above average. Something that is not just more of the same. Yes there are areas that need this and that, but if all of Tulsa remains average, well it will be just that.
If you were to spread everything, tax wise and development wise, evenly throughout the city, it would become so diluted that it wouldn't make much of a difference. If on occasion you focus a bit more on some strategic areas, those areas can become catalysts for more good things to happen. When those "good things" happen they create more tax dollars that help maintain the "bit more". Later you focus a bit more on another area and it becomes "nice", above average. Over time you end up with more and more nice areas and fewer and fewer average areas.
When I got my first place 20 years ago,I had a choice to make about what kind of furniture I was going to buy. I had an aunt that I had watched buy average to cheap stuff, it would tear up easily and look ugly and she would then buy more average stuff. Over time I noticed that if she had just bought one nice thing and either done without or bought something that did the job, like a cheap fold up chair, that was so cheap it wouldnt matter if you threw it away,,, over time if you kept that up you would have a home full of nice things.
My first place, I bought ONE very nice chair lol. and I had a bit of some junk and did without for lot of things. People would come in and go... WOW nice chair! lol. Definitely beat the reaction I would have gotten with a room full of average stuff. The next year I would get one more nice thing, then over time, well now I have a home with a lot of nice things. I still have that first chair, its quality, its beautiful, it still works and you know what, its worth more today than it was back then. Many of my friends have probably spent just as much over time as I have on furniture, but they still just have mostly average. And over time they will spend much more. I now have a lot of WOW, and spend relative pennies to maintain.
Putting new soles on a pair of good quality shoes beats buying cheap shoes over and over forever.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
All I can say is that I am glad to see something done above average. Something that is not just more of the same. Yes there are areas that need this and that, but if all of Tulsa remains average, well it will be just that.
If you were to spread everything, tax wise and development wise, evenly throughout the city, it would become so diluted that it wouldn't make much of a difference. If on occasion you focus a bit more on some strategic areas, those areas can become catalysts for more good things to happen. When those "good things" happen they create more tax dollars that help maintain the "bit more". Later you focus a bit more on another area and it becomes "nice", above average. Over time you end up with more and more nice areas and fewer and fewer average areas.
When I got my first place 20 years ago,I had a choice to make about what kind of furniture I was going to buy. I had an aunt that I had watched buy average to cheap stuff, it would tear up easily and look ugly and she would then buy more average stuff. Over time I noticed that if she had just bought one nice thing and either done without or bought something that did the job, like a cheap fold up chair, that was so cheap it wouldnt matter if you threw it away,,, over time if you kept that up you would have a home full of nice things.
My first place, I bought ONE very nice chair lol. and I had a bit of some junk and did without for lot of things. People would come in and go... WOW nice chair! lol. Definitely beat the reaction I would have gotten with a room full of average stuff. The next year I would get one more nice thing, then over time, well now I have a home with a lot of nice things. I still have that first chair, its quality, its beautiful, it still works and you know what, its worth more today than it was back then. Many of my friends have probably spent just as much over time as I have on furniture, but they still just have mostly average. And over time they will spend much more. I now have a lot of WOW, and spend relative pennies to maintain.
Putting new soles on a pair of good quality shoes beats buying cheap shoes over and over forever.
These are some beautiful metaphors, thanks. You will leave something that your grandkids will value, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
All I can say is that I am glad to see something done above average. Something that is not just more of the same. Yes there are areas that need this and that, but if all of Tulsa remains average, well it will be just that.
If you were to spread everything, tax wise and development wise, evenly throughout the city, it would become so diluted that it wouldn't make much of a difference. If on occasion you focus a bit more on some strategic areas, those areas can become catalysts for more good things to happen. When those "good things" happen they create more tax dollars that help maintain the "bit more". Later you focus a bit more on another area and it becomes "nice", above average. Over time you end up with more and more nice areas and fewer and fewer average areas.
When I got my first place 20 years ago,I had a choice to make about what kind of furniture I was going to buy. I had an aunt that I had watched buy average to cheap stuff, it would tear up easily and look ugly and she would then buy more average stuff. Over time I noticed that if she had just bought one nice thing and either done without or bought something that did the job, like a cheap fold up chair, that was so cheap it wouldnt matter if you threw it away,,, over time if you kept that up you would have a home full of nice things.
My first place, I bought ONE very nice chair lol. and I had a bit of some junk and did without for lot of things. People would come in and go... WOW nice chair! lol. Definitely beat the reaction I would have gotten with a room full of average stuff. The next year I would get one more nice thing, then over time, well now I have a home with a lot of nice things. I still have that first chair, its quality, its beautiful, it still works and you know what, its worth more today than it was back then. Many of my friends have probably spent just as much over time as I have on furniture, but they still just have mostly average. And over time they will spend much more. I now have a lot of WOW, and spend relative pennies to maintain.
Putting new soles on a pair of good quality shoes beats buying cheap shoes over and over forever.
These are some beautiful metaphors, thanks. You will leave something that your grandkids will value, too.
So let me get this straight, you are advocating devoting Tulsa's resources towards isolated islands of above average development in the city and that somehow that will trickle down to other areas? Hmmm.... where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, it was those Channels folks. Yawn.
"So let me get this straight, you are advocating devoting Tulsa's resources towards isolated islands of above average development in the city and that somehow that will trickle down to other areas? Hmmm.... where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, it was those Channels folks. Yawn."
Yes.
However I don't think you were being at all genuine or fair in what you were implying. "devoting Tulsa"s resources" as if I were advocating all or huuuge chunks of Tulsas resources be used. The money being spent on the Pearl District is vastly different than what is being asked for by the Channels. THAT would be one heck of a chair lol, covered in gold and encrusted with diamonds. The Channels people got some things wrong, but they also got some things right, just because the channels people mentioned that the sky is blue does not automatically mean that it is not. For again, yes, I do think they realize that doing something exceptional in an area does benefit the entire city and region,,, but be wise about it and within reason. As in all things there should be some sort of balance, it doesnt have to be carried to an extreme.
Or are you implying that what is happening in the Pear District is too extreme?
I don't see how anyone could look at the treasures Tulsa already has "those isolated islands of above average", and say that they dont trickle down.
Despite the winds of fortune and economic fluctuations those assets are always there for everyone to draw on, use, promote, etc.
Sorry, but I prefer public policy that provides a rising tide that lifts all boats, not just the yachts.
It is called land specuation, and its practitioners are members of the second oldest profession. Buy low, do what you can to increase the value of the property, and sell high.
Listening to the defenders of the bagged-upon is like reading OJ's book: 'No sweetheart deals, but if there were, this is why it is ok.'
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
So let me get this straight, you are advocating devoting Tulsa's resources towards isolated islands of above average development in the city and that somehow that will trickle down to other areas? Hmmm.... where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, it was those Channels folks. Yawn.
The Channels
was isolated, expensive, and wouldn't create any spinoff. Pearl is in the middle of the city, with stuff going on in every direction. It makes a heck of a lot of sense to me to invest there.
However, I'm totally on board with your take that this area should not evolve into a high-end playground for the rich. I don't think it has, but I support efforts to keep it from happening that way. If they're going to invest our tax money over there, then normal working folks should
absolutely have access to that area. I am a little disappointed with how some of these new developments have unfolded, too.
But I wouldn't back up now. I'd simply say that it is up to all of us to make sure that things go better in the future. I'd go so far as to say that the city
should read the handwriting on the wall with all of these downtown housing projects and mandate that
their contribution should be to create housing that is within
most Tulsan's reach.
That doesn't mean that we have to redo this city on the cheap. Or undo and otherwise try to tar previous efforts. Private investors have taken a lot of risks up to now. I think that places like this are closer to the beginning than the end, and if the plug gets pulled now, things will tank and stagnate for another 20 years. I think that would be even a bigger mistake.
I agree with your earlier sentiments: we need to get organized; get a good game plan that suits everybody and is worthy of investment.
I'll give the pearl this much credit, at least they are willing to take real risks by developing north of the BA, unlike Bumgarner or Metro Lofts.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
It is called land specuation, and its practitioners are members of the second oldest profession. Buy low, do what you can to increase the value of the property, and sell high.
Listening to the defenders of the bagged-upon is like reading OJ's book: 'No sweetheart deals, but if there were, this is why it is ok.'
Are you suggesting thats wrong? Say if I were to buy a run down home, fix it up to sell it for more, thats wrong? If I were to buy in a run down area it would be wrong to try and get things done in the area to make it better, thats wrong?
I think affordable housing is a good idea too, but to knock someone else's development just because it was well-built, well-marketed, well-placed and increasing in value is not right.
The Villages at Central Park was a gamble that paid off, but there is still lots of land for new development nearby.
Successful housing that increases in value will spur more housing and some of that will be at different price points.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Sorry, but I prefer public policy that provides a rising tide that lifts all boats, not just the yachts.
It seems as though you are implying 2 different things in that statement.
1. "Rising tide that lifts all boats" in the context of the converstation would imply that you would rather not see anything done better than any other place. All places throughout the city should get equal share of public monies. Because if one area was focused on or had more money spent on it, then it wouldnt be fair, it would raise only those boats near it, not everyone.
Unless eeeeevery street gets streetscaping and lights, no streets should. Or downtown, the area arund Pine,Whittier Square, etc. shouldnt have gotten streetscaping or nice lights because that did not lift everyone.. The proplem is that if you took those funds and spread them out over the entire city, each block or mile would get only one cheap light and a few bricks lol. The effect would basically be nill, a wash, no real observable difference. No boats would be lifted at all, perhaps a slight bob at best lol. Oh hey look this area is nice there is a light and a planter, lets develop here! But hey, at least we wouldn't be in danger of lifting any yachts.
2. Speaking of the Yachts. I don't think any of those areas or the Pearl has a plethora of Yachts. The implication as far as I can see is that you are speaking of JJs Yacht. If any area is going to be improved more than another, well its either going to have someone in it that will benefit and thus their Yacht will be raised, or a developer will move into the area to take advantage of it so that his yacht will then be raised, whether its a big developer or a small one, a big yacht or a small one. But isnt that part of what we are hoping for, development? Yes you hope that boats will be raised and not just yachts but are you going to only do nice things where there isnt someone with a yacht that might be raised? Or ban anyone with a yacht from ever developing in the area? How are you going to define a Yacht? At what point does a person or developers boat become large enough that you define it as a yacht? One man or areas yacht may be another man or areas dingy lol. No matter what area you do an improvement in there is going to be someone with a bit more money or who will get more benefit or advantage, than others, and thus could be said to be the yacht unfairly lifted.
The result of that statement would be that; No area should get more than another because if one does someone will get more advantage than another, best that NO boats, or yachts, be raised. Its better that everyone to flounder equally.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I think affordable housing is a good idea too, but to knock someone else's development just because it was well-built, well-marketed, well-placed and increasing in value is not right.
The Villages at Central Park was a gamble that paid off, but there is still lots of land for new development nearby.
Successful housing that increases in value will spur more housing and some of that will be at different price points.
I am most certainly knocking the 'green-old-boy' network, got that right. What should have been a simple, inexpensive, flood control project ballooned so far out of control that the original contractor blew through the budget (only to reappear as a separate company with the same trucks and workers to finish the job).
We have been able to determine that 'they' are using their network to enhance the value of their property. I wonder if the City's priorities were manipulated to make some of that happen. You know, other projects delayed, stuff like that.
I do not suggest anything criminal, just underhanded. I hate to see 'urban renewal' used as a red herring just to make some money for a few people. Buying property in a gheto takes cajones, we can agree on that.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I think affordable housing is a good idea too, but to knock someone else's development just because it was well-built, well-marketed, well-placed and increasing in value is not right.
The Villages at Central Park was a gamble that paid off, but there is still lots of land for new development nearby.
Successful housing that increases in value will spur more housing and some of that will be at different price points.
I am most certainly knocking the 'green-old-boy' network, got that right. What should have been a simple, inexpensive, flood control project ballooned so far out of control that the original contractor blew through the budget (only to reappear as a separate company with the same trucks and workers to finish the job).
We have been able to determine that 'they' are using their network to enhance the value of their property. I wonder if the City's priorities were manipulated to make some of that happen. You know, other projects delayed, stuff like that.
I do not suggest anything criminal, just underhanded. I hate to see 'urban renewal' used as a red herring just to make some money for a few people. Buying property in a gheto takes cajones, we can agree on that.
Everyone knows that Jaimee fellow has been "mobbed up" since the very beginning...
You don't want to ask what each of the large sandstones actually symbolize...
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Quote
In the context of this conversation... Could one define what we are referring to as "affordable housing"...
Affordable for purchase..? or the ilk of ghastly rental property..?
Or are we looking at the somewhat larger picture of making property ownership achievable so residents have a vested interest in the success of the "Pearl District"...
Well, as a current inhabitant of a "ghastly rental property" in east Tulsa, I think affordable housing is reasonable downtown housing for creative urban twentysomethings; competitively priced based on what's available in the rest of the city... $375 to $575 per mth for one or two bedrooms...
One/two bedroom condos for.... gasp... $60k to $120k... in other words, good starter homes...
Unfortunately, far too many downtown boosters wouldn't have a clue what needs to be offered to attract an authentic version of "the character, humanity and convenience of the best, traditional cities."
There are two kinds of "artist lofts"...
There's the real deal... a northside Chicago building I lived in for a few years... price range is now between $500 and $675... Utilities Included: Heat, Gas, Water, Trash Pickup...
http://www.apartments.com/partner/summary.aspx?page=summary&property=150253.6&p=aguides&state=IL&partner=aguides&prvpg=20
"Artist in Residence-Unique Edgewater Artists Community-Featuring Studio and One Bedroom Apartments. Located at 6161 and 6165 North Winthrop Avenue, theses two buildings cater to the special needs of artists, musicians, writers, sculptors, photographers, etc. Free on-site facilities include rehearsal and performance spaces, gallery space, painter's and sculptor's workshops, darkroom, and computer lad with Internet access."
Room for rockers... on a budget... "ah, the life of young bohemians"...
http://www.pussycatmagazine.com/archives/glamorouslycheap/punkrockmoneytactics.html
Then there's the real estate developers' fake "artist lofts" that usually contain some sort of trendy gallery on the main floor but where the apts and condos themselves are playgrounds for the upscale urban rich or children of the urban rich...... you'll find no artist community here...
http://www.tenlofts.com/welcome.html
Rufnex, I couldn't have said it better myself. The lofts here are overpriced, elitist, economically segregated, perversions of what lofts are supposed to be. Let's see I have the choice of Chicago where I could get a loft that is comparably priced to apartments here but the wages are much higher or I could choose to stay here and pay outrageous amounts of money for the same thing working at the same job for much lower pay? To add insult to injury, the greedy self absobed, self centered, baby boomers who pull this ****, scratch their heads and wonder why our young people vote with their feet.
Whenever I was looking for property around downtown to buy, the prices were outrageous. I would love to buy one of those old abandoned buildings or lots and fix it up and rent it out. But when you consider how much money it would take to buy the property, divided between the number of units you could hope to rent, plus insurance, taxes, the cost to build and or repair, the fact that you may not always have a renter, etc. etc. suddenly you realized that you would have to rent the place, or places, for quite a bit just to break even. Those people don't want to let go of that property for cheap, they are all sitting on it waititng for the development ship to come in so they can make their fortune on it lol. Thats why it sits there, abandoned or ends up as pricey lofts. Thats why I was so frustrated, it didnt make sense that you would see a building that sat in ruin, unused, would call to inquire on the price, then fall over in shock at what they wanted for it.
If I bought a spot for 100,000 dollars, and I am paying 700-800 dollars a month on mortgage, plus property tax, plus renters insurance, etc. I cant very well rent the place out for 500 dollars a month. BTW if anyone can find a spot for 100,000 dollars downtown or near the Pearl district, let me know lol. I mean think about it, if an artist could afford to buy it in the first place they wouldnt need to rent. The rent is obviously going to cost more than what it cost to buy cause the guy who bought it needs to make a profit so he can pay his own bills.
One example I know of for cheap rents is the places my uncle own in brookside. Some of his homes go for around 400 to 500 or so a month. He is a very nice person and doesnt charge the higher prices that he could probably get for his properties. But the only reason he can do that is because he bought those homes 20, 30 or so years ago for around 20, or 30,000 dollars lol. But if he were to sell one of them today he would sell for the best price he could get according to the market, which for the same sized home in the same area go for around 130 thousand and up, and and the person who bought the house would have to pay more for mortgage than my uncle now charges in rent, and if they were to rent they would add onto that so they could make a profit. So if a property in or near downtown was owned by someone who bought it ages ago or for really cheap, say at an auction or something, then they could indeed rent for cheap. But if any of us were to buy that same property today, we would have to charge a lot more.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I think affordable housing is a good idea too, but to knock someone else's development just because it was well-built, well-marketed, well-placed and increasing in value is not right.
The Villages at Central Park was a gamble that paid off, but there is still lots of land for new development nearby.
Successful housing that increases in value will spur more housing and some of that will be at different price points.
I am most certainly knocking the 'green-old-boy' network, got that right. What should have been a simple, inexpensive, flood control project ballooned so far out of control that the original contractor blew through the budget (only to reappear as a separate company with the same trucks and workers to finish the job).
We have been able to determine that 'they' are using their network to enhance the value of their property. I wonder if the City's priorities were manipulated to make some of that happen. You know, other projects delayed, stuff like that.
I do not suggest anything criminal, just underhanded. I hate to see 'urban renewal' used as a red herring just to make some money for a few people. Buying property in a gheto takes cajones, we can agree on that.
holy ****, i gotta get you one of my hats dude...
"...the 'green-old-boy' network..."- i thought i was ****in nuts... there is no conspiracy here... give it up...
"We have been able to determine that 'they' are using their network to enhance the value of their property..." ? who? what? how? by trying to improve the neighborhood their project is in? this is a bad thing?
"What should have been a simple, inexpensive, flood control project..." according to whom? the flood control was a neccesity but you'd rather have a single-prupose vacant drainage basin sitting next to the idl than the park?
i was not going deny brookside there bone but you are really starting to sound like a brookside elitist... you want your streetscaping but you want the 6th street area (not your 'hood) to remain fallow... **** all, let it go...
right now it is an easy target but once that park fills in and the plants are established you won't find anyone to agree with you...
the take home is that the new senior center is awesome, the park is great and both are an improvement for the neighborhood and the city.
Your hat is not working, dude. The 'take home' should have been put in a warmer carryout container because it is not even warm.
As long as folk want to keep responding and going round and round I suppose I will keep doing so, as well. Ya'll want to try to personalize this when clearly I am not alone.
I hope the 'senior' center is busy. In fact I hope it is full up all the time.
On another thread someone posted that perhaps BA COC uses this board to spam negativity about 'urbanists.' Maybe this board is a lame attempt to co-op support for risky 'investment' schemes in a ghetto.
Soooooo anyhooooo keep stroking this and I will keep responding.
In fact, start another thread on the Village and all, ya'll can heap praise on it and I for one will teabag it no mo. But just to keep responding to a thread refuting my blah blah blah above - which no one in their proper mind would bother reading anyway - is ridiculous.
If you want the final word on the issue, just start another thread praising the development and I will not rain on your parade.
I am not a crank, just cranky. You want to turn my crank, keep this thread alive.
^Its sad that you seem to have even less respect for yourself and your opinion than others do.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
^Its sad that you seem to have even less respect for yourself and your opinion than others do.
It is sad that you think it matters what I think about your opinion about my opinions. [:(]
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
In fact, start another thread on the Village and all, ya'll can heap praise on it and I for one will teabag it no mo. But just to keep responding to a thread refuting my blah blah blah above - which no one in their proper mind would bother reading anyway - is ridiculous.
If you want the final word on the issue, just start another thread praising the development and I will not rain on your parade.
I am not a crank, just cranky. You want to turn my crank, keep this thread alive.
dude, now you are responding to yourself and ignoring any of the genuine rebuttals to your point
BS BF! Everything you have said is patently untrue!
How does it feel to be universally refuted?
Give it up, dude, what you are saying makes no sense, no sense at all.
You have shown yourself to favor one neighborhood over all others for no good reason.
Nothing you say is accurate.
You are never right.
I am happy to play along with you by your rules.
I hope we can calm down and stop the name calling and discuss the project.
Yes, public dollars were used to build a nice pond and that decision probably helped increase the value of the nearby property owners. Is that any different than when the city built Swan Lake or Woodward Park? How about the trails along Mingo Creek?
The developer was not the only one who saw a benefit. The property owners across Peoria are adding new businesses, the VFW Hall across Sixth street has added a new parking lot, and the seniors have a great new recreation center to use.
I wish there was enough money to do these kind of improvements all over town, but I am not upset that this near downtown location got some nice improvements. I truly believe it will spur new investment in the entire area.
The redevelopment plan for Sixth street is well-done and I hope that we can continue to find funding to finish the plan. When we do, all Tulsa will be a better place to live.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
^Its sad that you seem to have even less respect for yourself and your opinion than others do.
It is sad that you think it matters what I think about your opinion about my opinions. [:(]
Its sadder that you don't realize that it does. [:P]
The daughter's boyfriend knows a spray-paint artist, and so I told the boyfriend that his friend should work at putting some cool spraypaint art like this (//%22http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7567%22). that may help you in your state of grief.
It is funny that there are not more spontaneous art displays in the Pearl District. Jazz it up a little for the commuters with low-cost, high-impact graphic art.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
BS BF! Everything you have said is patently untrue!
How does it feel to be universally refuted?
Give it up, dude, what you are saying makes no sense, no sense at all.
You have shown yourself to favor one neighborhood over all others for no good reason.
Nothing you say is accurate.
You are never right.
I am happy to play along with you by your rules.
ouch, you big meanie... you make my sad...[:(]
you have never refuted anything... you only post your conspiracy theories and unfounded absolutes...
oh how happy i am to have been enlightened by someone of your incedible intelligence... you win...
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
The daughter's boyfriend knows a spray-paint artist, and so I told the boyfriend that his friend should work at putting some cool spraypaint art like this (//%22http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7567%22). that may help you in your state of grief.
It is funny that there are not more spontaneous art displays in the Pearl District. Jazz it up a little for the commuters with low-cost, high-impact graphic art.
I love that kind of art, would be great to see that anywhere in town. I bet your daughters boyfriends friend could do some artwork on the side of the white building opposite the new central center. Its a blank canvas facing a parking lot and would be a great spot for a mural. If he is any good I would love to do what I could to help him get the spot if he wanted it, or any other he may see.
Btw, I am not the "state of grief" type person. I haven't felt down, sad, or "grief stricken" in a loooooong time. (Yes those teenage years can be quite troublesome lol) But by the time you reach your 40s like me, youve acquired enough of that wonderful combination of confidence, wisdom, delusion, and laze fair to keep ya smiling the whole day long. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
Quote
you have never refuted anything... you only post your conspiracy theories and unfounded absolutes...
It has been frustrating trying to support the Pearl District while people like you keep putting it down.
Why do you and your friends just come right out and say what you think instead of all the innuendo?
All you have is more nattering negativity and nonsense to spew with nothing to back up your facts.
Why do you not address the facts instead of all the personal attacks? Why do you have to make it personal instead of an objective discussion?
Urban renewal is very important and as a supporter of these projects, I believe anything you have to say about this is unhelpful.
I will be down at the Center later today, why do you not come down and see for yourself instead of all this chatboard nonsense?
Are you tired of crashing this important thread or are you ready to move on? (Not that what you say has any credibility!)
So now its "important"? So now you "support" it? So now you are worried about "facts"? Now you want an "objective discussion"?
I could go back and quote line after line from you that contradicts every statement you made in that last post. Your arguments have been entirely subjective, given without evidence of any kind. Further, your bias is hanging out. You argue that your neighborhood deserves special treatment and remain proudly, and ignorantly, unsuppportive of your neighbors in the Pearl.
Your behavior has been shameful; you are the one that wants to hurt people. And yet you cry when people push back.
I'm glad you are going out to get some first-hand information. And I'm happy for you to change your mind based on what you learn. But up to now, you have been the one operating off of "innuendo", "negativity", and "nonsense".
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I hope we can calm down and stop the name calling and discuss the project.
Indeed, stop shooting the messenger and get on board!
I am more than willing, though, to take the barbs for standing up for fiscal restraint, innovative design, sustainable development, urban renewal, and objective City planning.
Anything to save a few bucks, reduce waste, improve efficiencies, increase ownership should be encouraged.
I still believe community centers should be located near population centers, flood control should be done with an eye on cost, and prioritizing expenditures for urban renewal should be carefully monitored.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
Quote
you have never refuted anything... you only post your conspiracy theories and unfounded absolutes...
It has been frustrating trying to support the Pearl District while people like you keep putting it down.
Why do you and your friends just come right out and say what you think instead of all the innuendo?
All you have is more nattering negativity and nonsense to spew with nothing to back up your facts.
Why do you not address the facts instead of all the personal attacks? Why do you have to make it personal instead of an objective discussion?
Urban renewal is very important and as a supporter of these projects, I believe anything you have to say about this is unhelpful.
I will be down at the Center later today, why do you not come down and see for yourself instead of all this chatboard nonsense?
Are you tired of crashing this important thread or are you ready to move on? (Not that what you say has any credibility!)
huh?
i've been behind the pearl since day one...
"...say what you think?..."- i have, i think this project and the entire 6th street plan is great for tulsa...
"...personal attacks..."? i, unlike yourself, attacked only your points and not the person (with the exception of my "brookside elitist" comment)...
"...come down and see for yourself..."? see what? a great park? a senior center that rivals anything in town? a neighborhood working together towards a sustainable and improved future? i have seen it.
i believe you are confuzzed...
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
Quote
you have never refuted anything... you only post your conspiracy theories and unfounded absolutes...
It has been frustrating trying to support the Pearl District while people like you keep putting it down.
Why do you and your friends just come right out and say what you think instead of all the innuendo?
All you have is more nattering negativity and nonsense to spew with nothing to back up your facts.
Why do you not address the facts instead of all the personal attacks? Why do you have to make it personal instead of an objective discussion?
Urban renewal is very important and as a supporter of these projects, I believe anything you have to say about this is unhelpful.
I will be down at the Center later today, why do you not come down and see for yourself instead of all this chatboard nonsense?
Are you tired of crashing this important thread or are you ready to move on? (Not that what you say has any credibility!)
huh?
i've been behind the pearl since day one...
"...say what you think?..."- i have, i think this project and the entire 6th street plan is great for tulsa...
"...personal attacks..."? i, unlike yourself, attacked only your points and not the person (with the exception of my "brookside elitist" comment)...
"...come down and see for yourself..."? see what? a great park? a senior center that rivals anything in town? a neighborhood working together towards a sustainable and improved future? i have seen it.
i believe you are confuzzed...
You want to continue attacking me and I do not know why. My opinion is that the dig went way beyond what was necessary or we had the funds for, the overall product is underwhelming, and that the Center looks like a reward for a small clique.
Those are my opinions.
If it is so "underwhelming", how can it be a "reward" for anyone?
I just wanted to say that I do think the Village at Central Park is a great development, they are very well built, too. Compared to what Metro Lofts is selling these are a much better deal. If we had a tornado bearing down on us, a home a the Village would be an ideal place to be. A Metro Lofts home, on the other hand, would be the last place you wanna be.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I just wanted to say that I do think the Village at Central Park is a great development, they are very well built, too. Compared to what Metro Lofts is selling these are a much better deal. If we had a tornado bearing down on us, a home a the Village would be an ideal place to be. A Metro Lofts home, on the other hand, would be the last place you wanna be.
M Lofts has come on here before to dispute that claim.
I can't remember exactly what was said by M lofts, because the old threads on m lofts developments which are amongst the 25 most read threads on here won't open on my computer at the moment. I think M lofts has successfully disputed your claim that the homes are sub standard and you should move on from being rude to a developer who is densing up Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I just wanted to say that I do think the Village at Central Park is a great development, they are very well built, too. Compared to what Metro Lofts is selling these are a much better deal. If we had a tornado bearing down on us, a home a the Village would be an ideal place to be. A Metro Lofts home, on the other hand, would be the last place you wanna be.
M Lofts has come on here before to dispute that claim.
I can't remember exactly what was said by M lofts, because the old threads on m lofts developments which are amongst the 25 most read threads on here won't open on my computer at the moment. I think M lofts has successfully disputed your claim that the homes are sub standard and you should move on from being rude to a developer who is densing up Tulsa.
They are substandard compared to the homes built at the Village at Central Park. Cheerio, wanker.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I just wanted to say that I do think the Village at Central Park is a great development, they are very well built, too. Compared to what Metro Lofts is selling these are a much better deal. If we had a tornado bearing down on us, a home a the Village would be an ideal place to be. A Metro Lofts home, on the other hand, would be the last place you wanna be.
M Lofts has come on here before to dispute that claim.
I can't remember exactly what was said by M lofts, because the old threads on m lofts developments which are amongst the 25 most read threads on here won't open on my computer at the moment. I think M lofts has successfully disputed your claim that the homes are sub standard and you should move on from being rude to a developer who is densing up Tulsa.
They are substandard compared to the homes built at the Village at Central Park. Cheerio, wanker.
Do I take from that comment you are merely referring to the fact that the Village in Central Park is built so solidly anything in comparison would be sub standard or is this just you having a go at M Lofts again?