See here:
http://boundrationality.blogspot.com/2007/02/is-tulsas-east-end-proposal-in-jeopardy.html#links (//%22http://%22)
I'll refrain from judgement before I hear both ends of the story.
Well DUH! Told you so. Promoters! Brokers! Shicksters!
"She (mayor) said one appealing aspect of the East End project is that Global is working with a local group that knows what the scene should be downtown." NOW THAT'S FUNNY!!!!!
Looks like the Nordam bunch likes lawsuits. They must have given up on the prospect being able to perform to sue them for the earnest deposit money. Was some other party waiting in the wings? doubtful.... just greed.
Great link! Thanks!
Ok, I am not a legal jargon person. Could someone explain all that in laymans terms, or better yet explain a couple of the terms so I can learn lol? Whats happening?
I really really wanted this development to happen. But for some reason kept getting a sinking feeling, even in the beginning, that it wouldn't. For one thing if some of the old property owners downtown even gets a whiff of some development coming in, they get even more greedy than they usually seem and want to get rich off their property by asking even higher prices. If the development doesn't happen, they just go, Oh well, no sweat off my back. I will just sit and wait around 10, 20, 30 or more years until the next opportunity arises. In the meantime, abandoned run down buildings and empty lots just sit there. Are they possibly looking for a repeat of the old boomtime days when you could pull that off? Buy cheap on the downturn, sell high on the upturn. Do they not realize thats not gonna happen in this town ever again? Those days are looong over. They will just sit on that property until they die with it, then pass it on to the next generation of trust fund babies, all the while stagnating everything around them.
Tulsa will boom again someday when the sea rises from global warming and people start moving here in droves from the coasts. Why else does Jimmy Inhofe take that position?
The land is good property and if the owners want to do what is best for Tulsa they will continue to seek the highest and best use at a slow and well thought out manner.
There needs to be comfortable and affordable day to day (not neccesarily night to night) lifestyle developed to bring east downtown back.
Explanation: Basically, the parties entered into an agreement. There was some money promised for closing, and it never happened. Nordam sued. It doesn't mean the deal is off, but it doesn't look good.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Tulsa will boom again someday when the sea rises from global warming and people start moving here in droves from the coasts. Why else does Jimmy Inhofe take that position?
The land is good property and if the owners want to do what is best for Tulsa they will continue to seek the highest and best use at a slow and well thought out manner.
There needs to be comfortable and affordable day to day (not neccesarily night to night) lifestyle developed to bring east downtown back.
I am 40 years old and have seen huge swaths of downtown property sit fallow my entire life. Just how much longer are they going to wait? Another 40 years perhaps? I mean come on. Large companies or wealthy people can afford to wait generations if they feel like it.
Not to mention, the idea that they are waiting for the "right development" or the "highest and best use" an enlightened self-interest done for our own ignorant good, is absurd. You think anyone believes that? lol If it was a whore house that offered them their asking price they would leap at it. They don't give a danged about what goes there. If they think its such a great piece of property and know what should go there, why don't they build on it themselves?
I don't want to sound so ornery and jaded, but all my life I have heard people say what you say, and all my life I have seen just the opposite happen. Ya can't help but not believe it any more. Unless something changes, Tulsa is still in the position of being a beggar city. Beggars can't be choosers, sitting around waiting to win the lottery "the next boom" isn't a good strategy. If we want something, we are going to have to work hard to get it.
Look at that Bates article about the river. Count the number of "plans", developments, hopes and dreams, that never panned out. How many times before have we been exactly right where we are now? Same thing with those lots downtown, I have heard it before, over and over, and over, and over..... And yet there they still sit. What was the latest vacancy rate downtown? 26% And its a great time to build more? There aren't any better risks or cities where this out of town entity could invest its money? What would make us more attractive than some place else?
More questions than answers from this hater.
So who among this forum has known that the East End partners could not fork over a measly $24K to fund them big dreams?
Could this be behind the sudden public relations campaign for the Pearl District? (//%22http://www2.ktul.com/news/stories/0207/393983.html%22)?
Were these Partners the chief mover behind the 'East End' or one of several?
Is the thought that the City was not looking at extending a 'TIF' to the area and that is why the group pulled out?
And check the article where it sez that the plan is to connect dtown with midtown!! Ha ha ha ha!! The ghetto at 6th & Peoria is now midtown! HAHAHAHA!!
More questions than answers from this hater.
So who among this forum has known that the East End partners could not fork over a measly $24K to fund them big dreams?
Could this be behind the sudden public relations campaign for the Pearl District? (//%22http://www2.ktul.com/news/stories/0207/393983.html%22)?
Were these Partners the chief mover behind the 'East End' or one of several?
Is the thought that the City was not looking at extending a 'TIF' to the area and that is why the group pulled out?
And check the article where it sez that the plan is to connect dtown with midtown!! Ha ha ha ha!! The ghetto at 6th & Peoria is now midtown! HAHAHAHA!!
Gee, Tim... "NAYSAYERS WIN!!! NAYSAYERS WIN!!!" [:(!]
Sounds like there's been a big game of "chicken" going on... there's ZERO reasons for Global to buy those properties if the mayor's office can't give reasonable assurances that a TIF will be created for it.
A measly $24K? Really? Looks like a lot more than that is going on...
quote:
Tulsa Partners I LLC paid an initial deposit of $45,000, but on April 10, Tulsa Partners notified Nordam of its intent to extend the period of time to "conduct its due diligence" of the property. In response, Nordam Group Inc. requested an additional deposit of $45,000 to Guaranty Abstract, which Tulsa Partners paid, the suit said.
The agreement was again amended Aug. 25 when the closing date on the property was delayed to Oct. 29, with an additional $45,000 owed to Guarantee Abstract by Tulsa Partners. The closing date was delayed again on Oct. 29 to Nov. 30, when $100,000 was required of Tulsa Partners in exchange for the extension. Both deposits were paid by Tulsa Partners, the lawsuit said.
The closing date was moved a third time to Dec. 29 and Nordam Group requested an additional $200,000 deposit from Tulsa Partners. The suit then claims that Tulsa Partners did not make the payment.
"Conduct its due diligence"?Doesn't this have more to do with the new occupant of the mayor's office and less to do with the property itself?
With a project this size, what kind of TIF would it require? 20 years? Who's taking the risk? The developer or the city? Would the city be left holding the bag? Anybody know?
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20061019/ai_n16806447
As for "connecting downtown with midtown," maybe you should mind your manners... the area around 6th & Peoria is NOT a ghetto. Struggling? Definitely.
Affordable housing = rentals/homes/condos that typical Tulsa twentysomethings making $10 per hour doing call center work can afford... anything else is lipservice for taxbreaks disguised as incentives that will be used to line the pockets of millionaires... A successful
Gallery Place-style East End project could provide a great indirect help for the 6th & Peoria area and Central Park..... connect it to midtown... and could help Blue Dome and Brady more than their original TIF designations...
The same reasons Global's $25M purchase of soccer's DC United fell through could be same reasons the East End project falls apart... I kept getting the feeling these people are more fundraisers than actual investors, but hey.... whaddya expect from real estate people?
Man, this is getting confusing.
First off, I think the reference to the Pearl District as "mid-town" is confusing to those in the real estate arena. Mid-town hasn't been that far north and so close to Downtown since the fifties. Mid-town more often would be seen as north of 51st and south of 21st. Probably east of Lewis. But I could be wrong.
Secondly, what the $$**$ is going on with the increasingly large amounts for deposits? That would imply that there was another buyer in the wings. If not it seems strange that they would keep plopping down more and more money unless there was a compelling reason. Obviously they thought it was going to close. It was up to 190,000 by Dec 26th and they were asking for 200,000 more? They walked away from $190,000? Wonder who the agent is and what he walked away with....[;)]
I know what you're saying and I think a sales brochure touting "the East End's convenient downtown location is less than a mile from the affluent Mid-Town district of the City" would be better and more accurate, but... real estate people stretching the truth isn't exactly a newsflash...
And I have the same reaction to "Pearl District" now that I did after hearing about the "East Village" a year and a half ago...
Where are these mystical happy neighborhoods? 3 blocks from the Xanadu District?... convenient to Narnia...?
Ask 100 Tulsans (not in real estate) where the Pearl District is... --blank stares--... --sounds of crickets--... [:I]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Man, this is getting confusing.
First off, I think the reference to the Pearl District as "mid-town" is confusing to those in the real estate arena. Mid-town hasn't been that far north and so close to Downtown since the fifties. Mid-town more often would be seen as north of 51st and south of 21st. Probably east of Lewis. But I could be wrong.
A lot of people are under the impression that Midtown refers to whatever patch of land happens to be in the geographic center of town at the moment. That's incorrect. It's not "midtown" as in the middle of town, it's "Midtown" as in the description of a specific area. Cherry Street, the Pearl, Brookside, etc. are all a part of Midtown. 51st and
anything has never been a part of Midtown, the specific distict for which the name was coined in the first place.
Just because of all the new stuff built south of 61st Street doesn't mean they're going to rename the famous golf course "Midtown Hills Country Club". [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Man, this is getting confusing.
First off, I think the reference to the Pearl District as "mid-town" is confusing to those in the real estate arena. Mid-town hasn't been that far north and so close to Downtown since the fifties. Mid-town more often would be seen as north of 51st and south of 21st. Probably east of Lewis. But I could be wrong.
A lot of people are under the impression that Midtown refers to whatever patch of land happens to be in the geographic center of town at the moment. That's incorrect. It's not "midtown" as in the middle of town, it's "Midtown" as in the description of a specific area. Cherry Street, the Pearl, Brookside, etc. are all a part of Midtown. 51st and anything has never been a part of Midtown, the specific district for which the name was coined in the first place.
Just because of all the new stuff built south of 61st Street doesn't mean they're going to rename the famous golf course "Midtown Hills Country Club". [;)]
I think if we did a survey of people's opinion of what constitutes mid-town, we'd get a hundred different answers. I agree that "mid-town" doesn't really refer to the middle of the city, yet I have seen realtors advertise houses as "conveniently located in mid-town" when the house was at 51st & Harvard. I have friends who live in Jenks who think anything not in Jenks, not downtown, and not north, must be midtown.
Is global alliance the only player with this mythical 'East End' that their collapse would signal the death nell for the idea?
I do not see this as a win for 'naysayers,' but a surprising loss for those who use smoke and mirrors to falsely inflate the value of their investments. F'rinstance, remember that 500 acre film studio?
Not a ghetto? Vacant industrial buildings, poverty-stricken neighborhoods, slumlords, swarthy homeless wandering around. As a model for urban renewal what has been done now means that we will need to sink BILLIONS into downtown to create the popsicle-sucking dreamland that urbophiles want.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
More questions than answers from this hater.
So who among this forum has known that the East End partners could not fork over a measly $24K to fund them big dreams?
Could this be behind the sudden public relations campaign for the Pearl District? (//%22http://www2.ktul.com/news/stories/0207/393983.html%22)?
Were these Partners the chief mover behind the 'East End' or one of several?
Is the thought that the City was not looking at extending a 'TIF' to the area and that is why the group pulled out?
And check the article where it sez that the plan is to connect dtown with midtown!! Ha ha ha ha!! The ghetto at 6th & Peoria is now midtown! HAHAHAHA!!
How could the Pearl District have a negative affect on the East End? Especially, how could the Pearl District make it so the East End Partners could not be able to "fork over a measly 24K"?
"Sudden public relations campaign"? They have been in the news many times before and with the same or more fanfare. The reason its still in the news is because it keeps growing, more buildings and businessses going in, new things opening, etc. They were in the news way before the East End people were around and the East End people were well aware of the Pearl District and its plans.
How do you go from an article saying "the plan is to connect downtown with midtown" to the claim that 6th and Peoria IS midtown? Its between the two thus it connects the two. You can make an argument that it is mid-town or downtown. I have had visitors think the area around 21st and Utica was part of downtown, and in time it may very well end up that way. Downtowns are known to grow over time lol. Any, "area" can grow.
The article says 'revitalizing downtown with the midtown DISTRICT.' The only identifiable 'district' is the pearl jam at 6th.
6th and Peoria:
is hust getting started. Drive east on 6th St and see the cool old brick buildings waiting to have new life. See the Savoy. See the 6th Street infill plan.
East End:
I sincerely hope this plan is not dead. I don't know how anyone excited about the growth of Tulsa and Downtown would gloat about the project's demise. This project will start an avalanche of renewed interest in the area and could drive many other development projects.
I'm with the Artist on this one. I want a reinvigorated downtown more than anything. It's getting harder and harder to maintain optimism in the face of the countless false starts. I'm keeping hope alive in this case that GDP is serious about this project and that all of the agreements will be made, and that reasonable TIF's will be approved.
BTW, just a small point of order: when typing maniacal laughter, mua-ha-ha works better than HAHAHAHAHA. [^]
Whether or not the developer's East End project takes place, this area of downtown is ripe for redevelopment...and I think we are already seeing the seeds. I'm pretty confident that we don't need to develop downtown in 45 acre chunks to make it work. Individuals are already getting it done building by building. (Note that I did not say "parking lot by parking lot"...solving the problem of parking lot wastelands will require major capital construction projects.)
I'd love to see the East End project come to fruition, but if it doesn't, I know that we will continue to see redevelopment radiating out from the 3rd and Kenosha and Blue Dome areas. Perhaps we will see even better, more individualistic growth that will retain the character of the great old buildings that still remain in the area. (I'm always fearful of monolithic development by a single developer....no matter how much I like the plan.)
^45 acre chunks? Do you have a clue? I do not think that is anywhere close to taking place....
Loco Kobos? Most are.....
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
^45 acre chunks? Do you have a clue? I do not think that is anywhere close to taking place....
Well, I think I remember that figure from a statement that Jim Norton made several months ago... but I am definitely not good at remembering statistics. However, the East End brochure states that the project "encompasses over 14 city blocks." Anybody want to do the math? Since an acre is about the size of a football field, this number doesn't seem big to me.
Jim Norton? Size? Never mind. Go ponder.
I can't say I'm surprised at this.
In the last 5 years alone how close has Tulsa been to a breakthrough? More grand plans come from Tulsa than any other city, I swear it. From a Frankfurt Square, to The Channels, to the East End, to MLS soccer, Garden Square, to KANBAR. I doubt Tulsa Landing will even happen. But hey, at least Jenks and Broken Arrow are coming to fruition. Pat yourself on the back for that.
Seriously. Even Kanbar's starting to look like a flake. Just another 5 years of going ons in the city of Tulsa. It seems like for the last 30 years Tulsa has always been on the verge of a breakthrough, the kinds of breakthroughs that other cities would once again start to envy Tulsa, but Tulsa can't ever seem to get past the threshold. I've completely lost hope for downtown Tulsa during the course of the last 4 months or so.
I'm not gonna be fooled again. From this point on, I am never again getting my hopes up. I'll just be giddy over Downtown OKC, there's plenty of glee to go around in that department of my heart.
[V]
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Jim Norton? Size? Never mind. Go ponder.
Well, AOX, you're right. ("She's actual size, but she seems much bigger to me...") If downtown city blocks are 300', then a 14 block area is about 28 acres.
quote:
Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad
I can't say I'm surprised at this.
In the last 5 years alone how close has Tulsa been to a breakthrough? More grand plans come from Tulsa than any other city, I swear it. From a Frankfurt Square, to The Channels, to the East End, to MLS soccer, Garden Square, to KANBAR. I doubt Tulsa Landing will even happen. But hey, at least Jenks and Broken Arrow are coming to fruition. Pat yourself on the back for that.
Seriously. Even Kanbar's starting to look like a flake. Just another 5 years of going ons in the city of Tulsa. It seems like for the last 30 years Tulsa has always been on the verge of a breakthrough, the kinds of breakthroughs that other cities would once again start to envy Tulsa, but Tulsa can't ever seem to get past the threshold. I've completely lost hope for downtown Tulsa during the course of the last 4 months or so.
I'm not gonna be fooled again. From this point on, I am never again getting my hopes up. I'll just be giddy over Downtown OKC, there's plenty of glee to go around in that department of my heart.
[V]
As I have mentioned before,I am with ya on the "big plans from outside developers" thing. But I have not given up hope just yet lol. No I am not going to get all excited about East End, Movie Studio, Heavenly Hospitality,or Kanbar type developments anymore, so I have decided that my focus and interests have moved to the local small developer. Its people like Jamie J and Chris B (although many of you despise the latter, at least he is doing something lol) who are moving the city forward, and will continue to do so.
We shouldn't pin our hopes on large wonderous projects to push us forward.
Its the small developments, small ideas, small groups, small changes, that when placed in the aggregate, will change our community into the great place to live that we want it to be.
It will also be up to the community and community leaders to make things happen along the river. But as we have seen before, these plans lose steam and never happen as well. It will be up to us to really work hard this time and not let the "steam fizzle". There is a lot of work ahead and a number of situations where the latest plans for the river, or making of plans, can fall apart. We need to keep pushing and actually do something this time. Thats purely up to us. If it falls off our "interest radar" and then our "leaders" radar, and nothing gets done. We can have no one to blame but ourselves. Its up to us.
I don't think Tulsa should count on being the proverbial hare, we should strive to be the steady, unresting, tortoise.
If we want something done, we are going to have to do it ourselves.
Hare[8D] Couldn't help myself.
quote:
Tulsa Partners I LLC paid an initial deposit of $45,000, but on April 10, Tulsa Partners notified Nordam of its intent to extend the period of time to "conduct its due diligence" of the property. In response, Nordam Group Inc. requested an additional deposit of $45,000 to Guaranty Abstract, which Tulsa Partners paid, the suit said.
The agreement was again amended Aug. 25 when the closing date on the property was delayed to Oct. 29, with an additional $45,000 owed to Guarantee Abstract by Tulsa Partners. The closing date was delayed again on Oct. 29 to Nov. 30, when $100,000 was required of Tulsa Partners in exchange for the extension. Both deposits were paid by Tulsa Partners, the lawsuit said.
The closing date was moved a third time to Dec. 29 and Nordam Group requested an additional $200,000 deposit from Tulsa Partners. The suit then claims that Tulsa Partners did not make the payment.
Funny, how I was informed of the new website on 28th of Aug (didn't involve some guy named
Deep Throat in DC but was definitely NOT a google search), only a few days after Global made a payment of $45k to extend their closing to end of October.... also funny (strange), how AFTER the big Tulsa World story broke, Nordam decides it needs another $100,000 for a one month extension, then another $200,000 for a one month extension to Dec.29....
Global pulled out of a possible development in Milwaukee--- presumably to concentrate on the Tulsa project...
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10615510&postcount=26
So, what kind of precedent would it set if these people who've worked for months and months and months on this project fail?...... while the people who bought the Towerview for $750,000 (and have done nothing for months and months and months other than pay for its demolition after a fire) will most likely make a tidy $1M profit on their speculations...
I suppose the locals will most likely give us a "Plan B" for the East End and will want their city of Tulsa
"government, wine & cheese" for a project that will pale in comparison to Global's proposal......
gee, I wonder which set of local millionaires, well connected multi-millionaires, super duper millionaires or GOB's should we root for now?
/sarcasm
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Hare[8D] Couldn't help myself.
I wondered about that lol, was in too much of a hurry before work to think twice about it though. lol
I think I just affirmed my opinion on what is wrong with Tulsa.
The people with power and money don't give a sh!t.
All the dreamers, developers, and business men that bring plans to Tulsa are either local people like us - that is to say without the means to really DO anything. Or out of town groups.
When was the last time a Skelly, Chapman, LaFortune, or Taylor did a major project in Tulsa? I'm sure Im missing a few here and there (the Pearl), but most of the big things happening are from out of towners or with pulbic money. Putting in new condos, trying to build a MLS soccer complex, wanting to put in a hotel and retail development, buying a third of downtown... all from somewhere else.
When was the last time anyone who has any power or influence even poke their heads in this forum? Or any other public forum of people dreaming big for Tulsa?
Looking around the city; great buildings downtown bare the names of rich and powerful men. Parks, University Buildings, museums, stadiums, and foundations are named after Zincs, Skellys, Phillips, and the like. Does Tulsa simply not have people with money anymore (though we field Billionaire v. Billionaire mayoral candidates) or are those people just not willing to dream big?
I know and understand that many people do alot in this community, but I get the distinct impression that people that could actually pull off developments like this one here in Tulsa have too much of a stake in the status quo to really want to do anything.
Maybe Im just getting frustrated, but that is the distinct impression I get.
You don't really expect anyone to reaffirm or deny that do you? You can make a good case either way but its not the issue. Whether or not these same folks stand in the way of outsiders may be more germaine. I like the idea of money coming from outside our confines and increasing the size of the pie.
It used to be that folk were not so risk-adversive. Now they demand 'partnerships' before they will 'risk' anything. And then they want to be treated like heroes for coming up with ideas to spend our money.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad
I can't say I'm surprised at this.
In the last 5 years alone how close has Tulsa been to a breakthrough? More grand plans come from Tulsa than any other city, I swear it. From a Frankfurt Square, to The Channels, to the East End, to MLS soccer, Garden Square, to KANBAR. I doubt Tulsa Landing will even happen. But hey, at least Jenks and Broken Arrow are coming to fruition. Pat yourself on the back for that.
Seriously. Even Kanbar's starting to look like a flake. Just another 5 years of going ons in the city of Tulsa. It seems like for the last 30 years Tulsa has always been on the verge of a breakthrough, the kinds of breakthroughs that other cities would once again start to envy Tulsa, but Tulsa can't ever seem to get past the threshold. I've completely lost hope for downtown Tulsa during the course of the last 4 months or so.
I'm not gonna be fooled again. From this point on, I am never again getting my hopes up. I'll just be giddy over Downtown OKC, there's plenty of glee to go around in that department of my heart.
[V]
As I have mentioned before,I am with ya on the "big plans from outside developers" thing. But I have not given up hope just yet lol. No I am not going to get all excited about East End, Movie Studio, Heavenly Hospitality,or Kanbar type developments anymore, so I have decided that my focus and interests have moved to the local small developer. Its people like Jamie J and Chris B (although many of you despise the latter, at least he is doing something lol) who are moving the city forward, and will continue to do so.
We shouldn't pin our hopes on large wonderous projects to push us forward.
Its the small developments, small ideas, small groups, small changes, that when placed in the aggregate, will change our community into the great place to live that we want it to be.
It will also be up to the community and community leaders to make things happen along the river. But as we have seen before, these plans lose steam and never happen as well. It will be up to us to really work hard this time and not let the "steam fizzle". There is a lot of work ahead and a number of situations where the latest plans for the river, or making of plans, can fall apart. We need to keep pushing and actually do something this time. Thats purely up to us. If it falls off our "interest radar" and then our "leaders" radar, and nothing gets done. We can have no one to blame but ourselves. Its up to us.
I don't think Tulsa should count on being the proverbial hare, we should strive to be the steady, unresting, tortoise.
If we want something done, we are going to have to do it ourselves.
Who is that supposed to keep up with? Surely not OKC, 2,200 downtown units planned or u/c, and Omaha, 1,400 downtown units planned or u/c.
One of these days Tulsa needs to regain its former glory. Till then, it'll continue to be second-fiddle to similar sized cities.
So what is OKC doing that Tulsa is not? I peek into one of the OKC chats and just about every couple weeks there is an announcement of a new development starting. You should see the stuff thats been announced in just the last couple months. I used to poo poo their little canal area, but gosh all the stuff that keeps going in around their downtown area, well even if we did get the East End and full Kanbar action goin on we couldn't catch up with where they will be in a year or two.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
So what is OKC doing that Tulsa is not? I peek into one of the OKC chats and just about every couple weeks there is an announcement of a new development starting. You should see the stuff thats been announced in just the last couple months. I used to poo poo their little canal area, but gosh all the stuff that keeps going in around their downtown area, well even if we did get the East End and full Kanbar action goin on we couldn't catch up with where they will be in a year or two.
I don't know if this is the entire reason for the OKC Booming Downtown development that you refer to..... but I suspect it may have a great deal to do with it...
Their MAPS program targeted Downtown... V2025 is County wide...
August 17, 2004
was an historic day
in the City's history.
It brought the dedication of the Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library and the completion of the MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects) program that began on December 14, 1993, when voters approved the MAPS sales tax.
It is believed Oklahoma City is the first city in the country to undertake a public facility enhancement project of this size.
The Projects:
* The Ford Center
* The AT&T Bricktown Ballpark
* The Bricktown Canal
* State Fairgrounds Improvements
* The Oklahoma River
* The Oklahoma Spirit Trolleys
* Renovation of the Myriad into the Cox
* Renovation of the Civic Center Music Hall
* The Norick Downtown Library
How We Did It
MAPS was funded by a temporary one-cent sales tax approved by city voters in December 1993, and later extended an additional six months.
The tax expired on July 1, 1999. During the 66 months it was in effect, over $309 million was collected. In addition, the deposited tax revenue earned about $54 million in interest. That was used for MAPS construction, too.
Day to day operations are handled by the MAPS office, whose staff members are all City employees.
54 million in interest? Is that because they collected the money and held onto it for a bit instead of passing the tax and immediately borrowing the expected income?
The Ford Center has done good for OKC. The BOK Center looks like it will be nicer, but 2009 or whenever it is that it will open might be too late to have the same effect. Getting an NBA team was suprising and a boon for OKC, but I would never expect that turn of events here in Tulsa. I bet many of the new developments in OKC right now are a direct effect of getting an NBA team (and looking like they'll have a permanent one too)
OKC is an ugly town of active people, as the saying goes. It doesn't matter, though.
Tulsa could be a beautiful town of active people, but it is NOT. Tulsa is a beautiful town of apathetic people, which gets beat every time by the ugly town of active people.
The only thing we do differently than Tulsa is dare to dream, and then, we execute. Somewhere between point a and point b Tulsa gets lost every time.
Here in OKC, we drive into our downtown every morning with a dream of turning these desolate, abandoned, crime-ridden streets into the Portland of the Plains. In the 90s we got sick and tired of seeing our city look like trash, that was so repulsive from the outside not even American Airlines would locate here. And so far, we're doing that, making our city so appealing from the outside that no one would refuse locating here. There isn't a city our size in America on a bigger upswing than OKC.
quote:
Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad
OKC is an ugly town of active people, as the saying goes. It doesn't matter, though.
Tulsa could be a beautiful town of active people, but it is NOT. Tulsa is a beautiful town of apathetic people, which gets beat every time by the ugly town of active people.
The only thing we do differently than Tulsa is dare to dream, and then, we execute. Somewhere between point a and point b Tulsa gets lost every time.
Here in OKC, we drive into our downtown every morning with a dream of turning these desolate, abandoned, crime-ridden streets into the Portland of the Plains. In the 90s we got sick and tired of seeing our city look like trash, that was so repulsive from the outside not even American Airlines would locate here. And so far, we're doing that, making our city so appealing from the outside that no one would refuse locating here. There isn't a city our size in America on a bigger upswing than OKC.
Hey, I said that! But it's a condensation of remarks others have made including yourself. OKC is geographically plain, flat, windy and kind of ugly. People seem more active there and yes, they execute their visions. I meant that as a compliment. They do things while Tulsans sit on their butts and complain about taxation, religion and roads. Tulsa gnashes its teeth about every little thing and in the end does almost nothing and does it late. But it is lovely here and we're building a nice arena. It is what it is.
That does seem to be a recurring underlying them that I have noticed. aka Tulsans don't do anything. Many complain about not having anything to go see or do, but they don't go see or do the things that they have. How is it that that part of our "culture" is so different? Even smaller cities can get better concert acts, better stores, etc. than Tulsa can. Why, because they know people in Tulsa won't show up.
How can we change or improve our demographics? Is this problem similar to the lack of "creative class" or college going people situation we have talked about in other threads? Another result of the same underlying thing.
I do think we are getting better though. I hope lol.
The one good thing about the Channels group is that because they are out there still pushing, perhaps the new river plans will actually get situated this time so that development, of whatever kind, can actually happen for once.
Well at the risk of sounding redundant....
As long as these proposals are geared at the entire sprawling City.... You are going to have a Downtown area that remains stale... and frozen in it's efforts to become something other than what it is...
Look at how much money was spent in OKC by MAPS...
Then look at the price tag of every proposal in recent past for the Downtown Tulsa area...
That is one thing I agreed with Mr Thom about...
You have to have a "center"... a ground zero...
and from that it all will expand..
Unlike Mr Thom I see Downtown and the investors that are there now as the "center"... The point from which the growth will expand.. Not the middle of the damn river..
We should take advantage of the resources we now have... Kanbar, Elliot Nelson, Schneider, etc., and a Mayor that seems eager to see new things happen..
I have heard many say "what is going on with these people...?" "They have not done that much yet."
Put together a coalition have meetings with them ... See if one penny, over say 5 years, would put more steam in the engine...
Do not continue to wait for others to make it happen..
In the TW today:
Progress stalled on East End development
By P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer
2/8/2007
Legal complications have put plans for the 34-acre downtown site on hold.
The proposed East End downtown development hit shaky ground in December when The Nordam Group asked a judge to release it from a land purchase agreement with a Washington, D.C.-based developer.
"This is an ongoing, complicated issue that both parties hope to resolve with the result being a downtown project that is in the best interest of Tulsa," Mitch Adwon said Wednesday.
Adwon is president of Adwon Properties in Tulsa, which represents the private developers in the land acquisition.
Global Development Partners hopes to transform a 34-acre site on the east side of downtown into a regional destination point called the East End that would include a baseball stadium for the Tulsa Drillers surrounded by mixed-use developments.
Adwon would not comment further on the lawsuit or progress on the East End proposal.
Nordam filed a lawsuit Dec. 27 in Tulsa County District Court against Tulsa Partners I LLC, operating for Global Development Partners, stating that the defendants had failed to comply with the terms of a sales agreement.
Read More (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070208_Ne_A8_Progr44725%22)
This has probably been discussed elsewhere ad nauseum, but in terms of differences between OKC and Tulsa it would seem a major diff is the amount of guv'mint jobs that OKC has vs. Tulsa.
OKC has the Capitol, Tinker, Will Rogers, and two state universities within 45 minutes. It also has two free interstates that lead to it and it is smack-dab in the middle of our state.
All that adds up to a much stronger built-in job and tax base that Tulsa does not share.
Thanks for the TW update. As optimistic as their report is, there are a few facts they have left out about the lawsuit that make it difficult for me to believe that anything positive will come of this. I hate to be negative about this, but face the facts:
1. Tulsa Partners I LLC have been served the petition in early January,
2. Their attorney has filed an appearance,
3. Tulsa Partners I LLC have not answered the petition, and
4. Nordam has filed a motion for summary judgment, which probably means that they believe there are no material facts in dispute, and that the court can easily enforce the terms of the allegedly now breached purchase and sale agreement.
I'm fairly sure they will finally answer the petition, and the judge won't grant a motion for summary judgment.
But the gig is probably up on this one, I am sad to say.
I am not an attorney, this is just my opinion.
Jamie Pierson had it right in the Urban Tulsa article last week. We need to think small and local, if we are ever to get any positive development in our wonderful city. The big box development people could care less.
per Oklahoma City - they have nearly 100,000 jobs directly attributed to the government. Between Federal jobs, the FAA, Tinker, the State, Universities, and various other things. 100,000 jobs that are steady, not likely to go away, come with built in raises and benefits, and pay above average.
Add to that 20-30,000 college students in the metro area. A central hub for the region and blah blah blah... and Oklahoma City has the advantage now that Tulsa once enjoyed from Oil. The difference, of course, is Tulsan's are taxed to pay for the jobs in Oklahoma City.
Bummer of a story. Sounds like the escrow payments accelerated to ensure the deal either went through or busted in a certain time period. The Partners appear to have run out of financing. Bummer for us. At least Nordam will get some cash out of a judgment.
Next?
And it seems that the whole 'East End' and most of urban regentrification was predicated on the continued growth of Wiltel and Williams Cos.
Who are some names that are associated with the fictional 'Tulsa Alliance'? Who is it that is foisting the fantasy that the whole shootin match would be completed by 2009?
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
And it seems that the whole 'East End' and most of urban regentrification was predicated on the continued growth of Wiltel and Williams Cos.
Who are some names that are associated with the fictional 'Tulsa Alliance'? Who is it that is foisting the fantasy that the whole shootin match would be completed by 2009?
The "Who" is strange. Does anyone know who Tulsa Partners I LLC is? I can't even find them (or their D.C. company) registered to do business in Oklahoma at the Secretary of State's office.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Well at the risk of sounding redundant....
that's never really stopped me... [8D]
I'm at the point where its easier to search for my old posts than type new ones...
from August 2002.
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90058&postcount=57
quote:
I don't think Tulsans want their downtown to "die"-- just that downtown development using taxpayer $$$ should be reasonable (i.e.-- no aquatics center/track & field projects please). Tulsans have trouble voting for bond issues for downtown/Riverside development when 2 of the 10 most dangerous intersections in the US are located-- you guessed it-- in SE Tulsa-- one of them at your hated Woodland Hills Mall on 71st and Memorial (2000 State Farm stats). Also, check a map and find that downtown is NOT centrally located (unlike OKC, Indianapolis and any number of others).......
--New mayor LaFortune has a difficult job to do... and if he's learned anything from his uncle he'll come up with proposals recognizing where people actually live and not where he wishes they'd live...
Again, August 2002... (my opponents arguments in boldface...)
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=124922&postcount=60
quote:
Tulsa's downtown projects can be supported by everyone ONLY IF EVERYONE is included. OKC's bricktown has some smaller trendier places, some larger upscale restaurants... and a HOOTERS... Tulsa not only has been divided into different parts of town racially, it's also been very divided socially, and that, I think, is a much bigger factor than crime or racism as to why many Tulsans won't support upscale improvement projects for downtown... most have never felt welcome there...
So, will Mayor Taylor's administration morph into
Susan Savage II-- Electric Boogaloo??? [:D]
I can't wait to see what Mitch the ***** delivers next!
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
I can't wait to see what Mitch the ***** delivers next!
He is like a bookie in this fiasco. Win or lose he still gets a payday.
A bookie?!?
Okay, that's it!... I just can't take the corruption and cronyism in Tulsa anymore... I'm moving back to Chicago... [;)]
/sarcasm
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
per Oklahoma City - they have nearly 100,000 jobs directly attributed to the government. Between Federal jobs, the FAA, Tinker, the State, Universities, and various other things. 100,000 jobs that are steady, not likely to go away, come with built in raises and benefits, and pay above average.
Add to that 20-30,000 college students in the metro area. A central hub for the region and blah blah blah... and Oklahoma City has the advantage now that Tulsa once enjoyed from Oil. The difference, of course, is Tulsan's are taxed to pay for the jobs in Oklahoma City.
Your right, but lol, the point I was trying to make is that even with the jobs and the people we do have, we don't get a lot of the things that even smaller towns get. Look at the concerts and acts that Omaha is getting compared to Tulsa. Heck even the Fayetteville AR area is getting more trendy stores and restaurants than Tulsa has. For our population, and number of jobs, we should have more entertainment options, more "things to do".
I do agree though that having Colleges in a city make a huge difference demographically. One reason I think growing Tulsas Colleges should be a TOP priority for bettering Tulsa. Having a bustling OSU downtown would help it and any East End development. Imagine how many college students head out to OKC's Bricktown. That is a great advantage that our Blue Dome and other downtown entertainment,shopping, arts, dining, districts don't have.
Will someone who actually knows what's going on please explain the relationship between the Pearl District and the East End? The Pearl seems to be right in the heart of the East End project, or vice versa. Is Global Development intending on cooperating with those behind the Pearl movement? If I had enough capital to buy property in the Pearl/East End and turn it into a mixed use urban development, could I do it? Is there a lot of land for sale? Are land speculators making unrealistic property value claims as they so often love to do? What are the facts?
Sorry for the slue of questions here.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Will someone who actually knows what's going on please explain the relationship between the Pearl District and the East End?
The only people who know "what's going on" have signed
confidentiality agreements, so I guess you're stuck with me...
"Thank you for your interesting and provocative question!!! Our operators are currently busy servicing other customers... please stand-by, and the first available operator will be more than happy to pretend to empathize with you.... this call may be monitored for quality assurance..."quote:
The Pearl seems to be right in the heart of the East End project, or vice versa.
Gee, you musta missed the Vancouver hippie hired by TulsaNow to inform us of what we already knew... the so-called "Pearl District" and recently named "East End" ARE divided....
"It's the highways, dude... that's what it's all aboot..." quote:
Is Global Development intending on cooperating with those behind the Pearl movement?
I seriously doubt Tim Kissler... http://www.globaldevelopmentpartners.com/documents/060830TulsaPressRelease_000.pdf
has actually met Jamie Jamieson, which would explain why certain TulsaNow posters have gently implied that we should allow
local, organic growth to take root, complete with no-strings attached Vision 2025 local government grants and subsidies, of course...
quote:
If I had enough capital to buy property in the Pearl/East End and turn it into a mixed use urban development, could I do it?
"I'm sorry, sonny... 'You must have an EGO at least THIS tall, to ride this ride'..."quote:
Is there a lot of land for sale? Are land speculators making unrealistic property value claims as they so often love to do? What are the facts?
Sorry for the slue of questions here.
See how you are?...
"Buy American!"... trust the local people in Tulsa who think an "artist community" would be great... for landlords harvesting
"affordable" rents of around $700 a month... so just stop questioning local people's motives!... they all just LOVE downtown!... all the way to the bank... [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Will someone who actually knows what's going on please explain the relationship between the Pearl District and the East End? The Pearl seems to be right in the heart of the East End project, or vice versa. Is Global Development intending on cooperating with those behind the Pearl movement? If I had enough capital to buy property in the Pearl/East End and turn it into a mixed use urban development, could I do it? Is there a lot of land for sale? Are land speculators making unrealistic property value claims as they so often love to do? What are the facts?
Sorry for the slue of questions here.
I75 is the demarcation point for both projects.
I75 is the demarcation point for both projects. - carltonplace
True, but the coefficients are unpromising.
jdb