Hey Kathy This is a Load of Cr#p.....!
Everyone knows the story..
Everyone has seen the paper..
We all remember how good we felt that a Mayor was going to do the Right thing for Tulsa...
Make it a Community where the Police were just not called upon to do their Duty... That the Public's Safety was now going to be "Job One"
"Safety will be my Number 1 Priority...!"
Mayor Kathy Taylor 2006
Anyone on this Board knows that a 4.5% raise is less than the cost of living... When you add in Healthcare for your Family and the fact that the Gas prices have effectively dictated the price of everything from a loaf of bread to a sheet of drywall....
We know that 4.5% barely makes ends meet the last couple of years...
I thought we were through with all this hillbilly logic when Billy left office..
If hubby can donate so much money to an Arena that is going to place more work upon the Police than they now have... Just how far is this little dance of denial going to go...
"Tulsa is open for Business...!"
Mayor Kathy Taylor 2006
True.... Tulsa is open for business...
And if you have watched the Homicide rate this year you might say what kind of Business are we in anyway....?
Hey Kathy.... Put a class of 100 new Police Officers on the Table...?
Hey Kathy.... You really going to feel that positive about bringing in all those influential Business people to Tulsa so they can watch the 10 O'clock shots of the drive bys for the day...?
One last question Madame Mayor....
How do you explain to the crime victims and the surviving parents of an innocent child that just happened to be in the crosshairs of an OG or any other Vato or Loady that we are spending all this money on all of these wonderful business solutions for Downtown to become a More Beautiful Tulsa??
News Flash
It will not mean a rats behind to those parents and is beginning to mean less to me as this denial that is overtaking Tulsa's City Government attempts to pull the Blinds on The Real World.....
P.J. You really should give more credit for the help you receive in doing your job from the Politicians that are in a feeding frenzy at the expense of the Citizens...
From The Tulsa World's Very own P J Lasseck.
Mayor first to use election option to decide raise.
For the first time in Tulsa's history, a request for an election has been made to decide the amount of a Police Department pay raise.
Mayor Kathy Taylor filed the election request with the City Clerk's Office late Wednesday afternoon to meet a deadline set by state law.
On Aug. 21, a neutral arbitrator awarded an 8-percent across-the-board raise to be effective Jan. 1, which was the best offer submitted by the Fraternal Order of Police during unsuccessful negotiations with the city. The city offered a 4.5 percent raise.
By law, Taylor had two options: accept the arbitrator's award or ask for an election and let the voters decide between the two options.
"I filed the request for the election to preserve our options so we can continue a dialogue and make a fiscally responsible decision on behalf of all the employees of the city," Taylor said after a special Thursday afternoon meeting of the City Council.
During a 90-minute closed executive session at the meeting, Taylor discussed with city councilors the arbitration award and her request for an election.
More than 50 police officers waited outside the
executive session to see whether action would be taken by the council. Councilors did not discuss the issue in an open meeting.
"We're disappointed that we haven't been granted the award yet," said Darin Filak, president of the Fraternal Order of Police. "A neutral arbitrator looked at all the facts and said that we deserve the raise and the city can afford it."
Filak said this is the second time the city and the FOP have resorted to arbitration on their contract and the first time an election has been requested since the state enacted an election option in the late 1990s.
"We're willing and ready to take the issue to a vote of the people," he said. "We feel confident that the citizens of Tulsa will come out and support us.
"Ultimately, that may be the best outcome for this problem: Let the citizens decide what comes next."
While Filak said the FOP is willing to discuss options, he said it would be "a difficult pill for our membership to swallow if we try to settle for something less than 8 percent unless there is compensation in benefits or something."
"The ball is in her court to make an offer or propose a solution," he said of the mayor. "We've proved our side."
City officials say that accepting the award would add $940,000 to the current budget, which runs from July 1 to June 30.
Budget Director Pat Connelly said the raise would greatly affect next year's budget, when the 8 percent would be for the entire year. "The money just isn't there," he said.
The city still has outstanding contracts with the Tulsa Firefighters Local 176 and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees Local 1180, which represents about 880 labor, trade and emergency communications employees.
Now that the mayor has filed a request for an election with the City Clerk's Office, she has 10 days to call a special election. Once ballot language is agreed upon by the two parties or an arbitration panel, the wording will be sent with an election request to the Election Board, and an election date will be set.
City Attorney Alan Jackere said the city and the FOP can reach a contract agreement up until the day of the election.
If I lived here, I'd feel embarassed! I can't see where the debate lies; the hassles, not to mention the risks of being a cop, especially with crime on the rise in Tulsa...
Maybe Tulsa's slogan could be:
"Where apathy thrives" ?
[xx(]
At least 7 days before Arbitration Board hearing Corporate Authorities (City) and Bargaining Agent (FOP) shall submit to each other and to the arbitration board members a written statement listing all contract terms which the parties have resolved and all contract issues which are unresolved. Each arbitration statement shall also include a FINAL OFFER on each unresolved issue. The terms and offers contained in the arbitration statement shall be known collectively as EACH PARTY'S LAST BEST OFFER. 11 OS 51-108
The arbitration board may not modify, add to or delete from the last best offer, can only select one of the LAST BEST OFFERS. The Mayor has ever right NOT to select the arbitration boards decision and submit the issue to a vote of the citizens of Tulsa, BUT that is NOT what it appears this Mayor is attempting to accomplish. Apparently having lost to the arbitration Board she now wants to re-open negotiations, disregard the Cities Last Best Offer and breach the procedures outlined in the Statutes pertaining to these matters. There are no provisions to re-open the negotiations, merely submit the rejected issue to the citizens of Tulsa. Appears the City was not bargaining in good faith, apparently they did not put forth their best offer.
You know, I really gave her a chance. When I met with her before the election as a member of the FOP, she seemed really open to suggestions about how to decrease the crime rate, hire more police officers, and get pay back up to a competitive level.
After the city counsel meeting, now I know that it was all a lie. Many officers showed up outside the executive session. At first there were approx. 100 officers but after over an hour of waiting (some officers had to go pick up children from school or go to work) the number droped down to approx. 50. Officers were there to show our support for the independant arbitrator's decision. Officers were anticipating that the city council and the mayor were going to come out of executive session and then go into special session to make some recommendations or at least state their positions openly. That did not happen. After they let the officers in the room, they decided to go into another executive session.
Last year, when the arbitrator decided with the City's offer, officers were upset but at least respected the arbitrator's decision and went back to working as hard as they can for the citizens of Tulsa. This year, officers were thrilled when they learned the independent arbitrator had heard all the facts, examined them and then made a decision to side with the FOP's last best offer. Officers assumed that the mayor and the city administrators would respect the arbitrators decision and follow the recommendations. Now, ten days later, we learn that the city administration has chosen to not support the police officers and the mayor is taking the only step she can to not allow this pay raise to take place. She is trying to take this to a vote of the people (hoping that the citizens of Tulsa will decide that the Tulsa police officers are not worthy of an 8 percent raise.)As a result of the city's actions, the moral at the police department is currently the lowest since I have been on the department.
I agree. this is a total load of BS.
This is LaFortune all over again...
The city's LT workforce also won an arbitration only to have it sidestepped by the mayor.
Why the hell have an arbitrator if it's not going to be respected?
I wish the police best of luck. If history tells us anything, your raises just went down the drain.
Unless, of course, the people vote for you guys.
Do you guys think the mayor has exhausted all additional sources of funding for an 8% raise? Is there some area you think is less deserving that could be cut to fund the raise?
I'm sure you deserved the raise, I just wonder where the money would come from even if the electorate approves it.
Of course they could merge some departments to effect savings. You know, like RPA and the Parks dept. Seems like that was around $900,000 wasn't it?[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Do you guys think the mayor has exhausted all additional sources of funding for an 8% raise? Is there some area you think is less deserving that could be cut to fund the raise?
I'm sure you deserved the raise, I just wonder where the money would come from even if the electorate approves it.
Of course they could merge some departments to effect savings. You know, like RPA and the Parks dept. Seems like that was around $900,000 wasn't it?[:O]
This was all discussed in the arbitration. For the FOP to win the arbitration, the FOP had to prove two things, 1.) that we deserve the raise (compare our wages to other cities our size) and 2.) that the city can afford to pay for the raise. When the arbitrator ruled in our favor, he ruled that not only do we deserve the raise but also that the city CAN afford to fund it.
In regards to the city's L.T. workforce, they also were able to prove their position to an independent arbitrator. However, the city was able to ignore the ruling because the ruling was none binding. This time the city can't ignore the ruling. They have two choices. They can accept the ruling or take it to the vote of the people.
I warn everyone not to fall for the city administration's doom and gloom reporting. They tried the same argument in arbitration and we were able to prove that it was false.
In addition, don't fall for the "oh next year, we won't be able to pay for water, the streets will go unfixed, we won't be able to pay for lights, other city workers will be laid off, the sky will fall!" predictions because of the 8% raise. The FOP and The city negotiate a new contract every year. It is fluid and things can always be changed.
Islands in the Stream.....
Ballparks in the Sky.........
Arenas on the Moon............
And Criminals with only blanks in their chamber..........
This has been a Public Service Announcement from the City of Tulsa.. inspiration provided by a poem written by our very own Mayor Kathy Taylor....
We Now return you to your regularly scheduled program.....
Curious she would take such a gamble. Her only success is if the electorate is swayed to vote against it and even in that she loses confidence from TPD and any other govt. employees. Anyone know her reasoning other than we can't afford it?
Did any LaFortune advisers stay on?
If she can snuff out the FOP's arbitrator decision, she'll do the same with the LT's. She is not bargaining in good faith.
I find this strange coming from a Democrat. I've always thought Dems were pro-labor?
I tried to warn everyone about da Mare. This is exactly what I suspected would come from our mercenary CEO Mare who practices pay to play politics. What did you expect from someone who opposes a minimum wage increase or uses every opportunity she has to bust unions? Someone who cares more about furthering welfare for the wealthy and protecting the wage slave trade of illegal immigration as a source of cheap labor for criminal employers than Oklahoma's working families?
BTW, did you hear about all the jobs dollar thrifty is outsourcing to India?
http://www.therestlessribbon.com/2006/07/dollarthrifty-will-outsource-it-to-eds.html#comments
MAKE LIFE BETTER BITTER
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/mistymountainhop/KathyTaylor-2k.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by art_cat
If I lived here, I'd feel embarassed! I can't see where the debate lies; the hassles, not to mention the risks of being a cop, especially with crime on the rise in Tulsa...
Maybe Tulsa's slogan could be:
"Where apathy thrives" ?
[xx(]
You know what art_cat... I live in Tulsa and the only thing that I get from this sort of action is the arrogance of the rich...
Personally I could give a rip if there are gangstas on the streets... I moved here from California.... Tulsa is tame in comparison...
Point is if you have some Lady claiming to be the CEO of a City you would think that she had a fairly good business mind...
Jump on some of the sites that tell you about features, attractions,characteristics, etc. of Towns and Cities across America.. You know so that if you get hired or are relocated to a particular community what you can expect and look forward to..
The crime figures in Tulsa are far and away above that of Pomona California.... At one time known as the Murder Capitol of Califa....
In other words... Your company transfers you and your children to Tulsa... Pack your Uzi..
And start looking for a new employer.. Unless you can afford to live in a Gated Neighborhood with Private Security..
Just a few questions amid all the bashing . . . .
Isn't this 8% in addition to step increases (which police seem to take for granted, even though other city employees can't)? Doesn't that make it more like 12%
What about the other 3,200 city employees? You know, the ones who took pay cuts so the police officers wouldn't have to?
Do you know what the average police seargent makes, by the way? It might surprise you.
You can't just look at this in isolation, and you can't look at the expense side without considering the revenue. Where will this money come from, especially if there's any semblance of equity among employees? You talk about prioritizing public safety, well, we've done that consistently since 2001. You also make vague assertions, with no specifics, about hidden pots of gold in city coffers. Those "hidden" pots of gold pay for engineers, street lights, park mowing, firefighters, and on and on . . . .
My guess is that the award will be presented to voters so that a revenue source can be presented with it -- i.e. 'put up or shut up.'
Kiah... I will allow the members of the FOP that are members of this Forum to answer your questions....
Darn Good Questions for a City to ask too...
One as frugal as the COT is with the
taxpayer's $Money$..
Maurice will be glad to see that he has invested in such a cohesive area..
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
Just a few questions amid all the bashing . . . .
Isn't this 8% in addition to step increases (which police seem to take for granted, even though other city employees can't)? Doesn't that make it more like 12%
What about the other 3,200 city employees? You know, the ones who took pay cuts so the police officers wouldn't have to?
Do you know what the average police seargent makes, by the way? It might surprise you.
You can't just look at this in isolation, and you can't look at the expense side without considering the revenue. Where will this money come from, especially if there's any semblance of equity among employees? You talk about prioritizing public safety, well, we've done that consistently since 2001. You also make vague assertions, with no specifics, about hidden pots of gold in city coffers. Those "hidden" pots of gold pay for engineers, street lights, park mowing, firefighters, and on and on . . . .
My guess is that the award will be presented to voters so that a revenue source can be presented with it -- i.e. 'put up or shut up.'
It was so much nicer when the Forum listed when a post had been edited...
Now you just have to check and see if they still have said exactly the same thing as the first time you read it....
In any event if the City has been "prioritizing safety"
since 2001 exactly what priority does it receive....
You seem to have the inside track on City info...
Buenos Aires...
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
Just a few questions amid all the bashing . . . .
Isn't this 8% in addition to step increases (which police seem to take for granted, even though other city employees can't)? Doesn't that make it more like 12%
What about the other 3,200 city employees? You know, the ones who took pay cuts so the police officers wouldn't have to?
Do you know what the average police seargent makes, by the way? It might surprise you.
You can't just look at this in isolation, and you can't look at the expense side without considering the revenue. Where will this money come from, especially if there's any semblance of equity among employees? You talk about prioritizing public safety, well, we've done that consistently since 2001. You also make vague assertions, with no specifics, about hidden pots of gold in city coffers. Those "hidden" pots of gold pay for engineers, street lights, park mowing, firefighters, and on and on . . . .
My guess is that the award will be presented to voters so that a revenue source can be presented with it -- i.e. 'put up or shut up.'
Well the put up or shut up already happened. The city put their side up and then the FOP put their side up. The FOP won. Now, I guess it will be up to the people of Tulsa to decide if they want to have city administrators make public safety a priority.
Second, you are mistaken about the pay cut issue. The other city employees were not the only people who took pay cuts. The FOP voted for its members to only take comp. time (instead of pay) for overtime for an entire year. This saved the city I believe approx. 2.3 million dollars (The exact amount was stated in the arbitration.) By agreeing to this, I personally took a pay cut of about $4,000.00 that year. I know other officers took more and some less. Upon retrospect, I wish we would have just voted to have taken the 2-3% pay cut like other employees. It would have been alot less of a pay cut.
Third, a Tulsa Police Sgt. makes $52,976.00. A Broken Arrow Sgt. makes more and they don't even require a four year degree. Furthermore, they aren't even in our 10 city survey. It should also be noted that we are currently 16% below our 10 city market survey.
Lastly, the money is there. That issue was the second part of the arbitration. The FOP was able to show an independant arbitrator that they city could afford the pay increase. Ironically, it was other city employees that helped us out. Last year AFSCME won it's arbirtation with the City of Tulsa by showing the same thing that we just showed.
As far as specifics, I will try and post a link to the arbirators decision or at least to our arguments that won the arbiration when I can get my hands on them. There isn't an FOP meeting until Sept. 6th.
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
Third, a Tulsa Police Sgt. makes $52,976.00.
Well, that's base pay, now how much does he
make (and in whose car does he take it home)?
The city will throw out doom and gloom. They just spent over 2 million on stipends for other city workers (it was well deserved) and they gave EMSA ( a private company) 2 million dollars just to help them out. You are telling me they can't come up with $700,000 to pay cops? It's about priorities, that simple.
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
Third, a Tulsa Police Sgt. makes $52,976.00.
Well, that's base pay, now how much does he make (and in whose car does he take it home)?
A Sgt. take home pay depends on how much overtime he works. Some work little to no overtime and others work more. It depends on the assignment and the person. As far as take-home cars,if an officer lives in the City of Tulsa or in the twenty-five mile radius, he can take his patrol car home. This was agreed to last year by the city administration. Furthermore, this agreement also extends to other city employees. The upside to this agreement concerning police officers is that everyone's neighbors feel good that they live next to a police officer and there is the illusion that there are more officers working (traveling to and from work, parked in front of houses or in apartment complexes) then there actually are. It is good for officers because we don't pay for gas traveling to and from work.
Officers get a car that they can drive to and from work and also drive while working their side jobs.
What is that worth? Free car, free gas, no insurance or maintenence costs...
Is that worth $5,000 a year? $10,000 a year?
You think a fireman or city dump truck driver should get to use their city-owned vehicle to work for cash jobs on their day off?
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Officers get a car that they can drive to and from work and also drive while working their side jobs.
What is that worth? Free car, free gas, no insurance or maintenence costs...
Is that worth $5,000 a year? $10,000 a year?
You think a fireman or city dump truck driver should get to use their city-owned vehicle to work for cash jobs on their day off?
I think they put a monitary value on it in arbitration. I'll look and give you the number. Since other police departments in the 10 city survey do the same thing it was already factored into police compensation. We were still 16% behind the pay of other police departments.
Do city dump truck drivers have college educations? Do they provide public security and safety while working their extra jobs? Do they get dragged by cars, attacked by people or respond to felonies in progress while working their extra jobs? In addition, some of their supervisors have take home cars. Is that fair?
Fireman get duty swap days and get to stay at the station, work out, sleep, watch television, cook their own meals, and play Xbox, Playstation 2 on the job when there are no calls. Policeman do not.
Thanks MH2010.
I haven't commented on this thread much because I don't know the facts that were presented in the arbitration hearing.
I don't know who made the argument for each side and what the rational was for the arbitrator's determination.
You had mentioned trying to post that info. I would be most appreciative.
I feel some loyalty to the FOP because my father is a retired Tulsa police officer, but I also have faith the Mayor will do the right thing because I believe she will.
The budget folk for the city were quoted as saying there isn't enough money. I have known these guys for over fifteen years and also trust them to know what they are talking about.
The mayor has not said she is going to fight the higher salaries, but she has to have a balanced budget and the budget people say this will be hard to do with giving the police a big raise while still having negotiations with the other unions pending. Read her quote...
"I filed the request for the election to preserve our options so we can continue a dialogue and make a fiscally responsible decision on behalf of all the employees of the city."
She just needs to keep options open for now. I don't blame her for that. Wait until this is resolved before you go off all crazy like poster doubleA.
I have been hearing for nearly 25 years, from every adminstration, every city commission and every city council, since Mayor Jim Inhoff, that their goal is to see their police officers paid AVERAGE. Yet, in this last 25 years, there hasn't been one mayor's adminstration, one city commission or one city council who has had the willingness, priorities, or competence to get the job done. When I say competence, I mean, look at other cities. They went through the same finacial problems Tulsa did, yet made their employees one of their priorities.
Yet, in 2000 or 2001, when the city council and the mayor wanted to adjust their pay, in just a few short months, they were able to go out, survey other cities, and put their own salaries at or above market survey. The message sent at that time - "we got ours, now good luck trying to get yours."
This Mayor, and this city council, have the opportunity to FINALLY say to their police officers, you at least deserve AVERAGE.
And don't believe the 4.5% pay numbers put out by the city, which is a bunch of crap. Their offer is 2.3%, which is an increase in total salary dollars compared to last year. 2.3%, which doesn't even keep up with inflation.
The Mayor and council have to look themselves in the face and honestly answer "Are our police officers deserving of average." If not, how will they ever recruit anyone in the future with a straght face and say "We've been promising to pay our police average for a quarter century. One of these days, we might get it done."
MH2010, the budget is tight. That fact's concurred by Rick Westcott (Chris Medlock's successor) and virtually every city councilor.
Can you prove that the money is there in the city budget for an 8 percent raise?
If there isn't, there's not much sense in promising money that doesn't exist, does it?
Can you prove that the money is there in the city budget for an 8 percent raise?
That was already proven by the FOP and agreed to by the independent arbitrator. Even the City agrees the money is there for this year.
Remember, the FOP must prove two things at arbitration: 1-That officers deserve a pay raise. 2-That money is available for pay raises. If you can't prove both, then the arbitrator must award for the city.
But does that include the fact that contracts still have to be written for the firefighters and other unions? All that available money will vanish of they get raises, too.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
MH2010, the budget is tight. That fact's concurred by Rick Westcott (Chris Medlock's successor) and virtually every city councilor.
Can you prove that the money is there in the city budget for an 8 percent raise?
If there isn't, there's not much sense in promising money that doesn't exist, does it?
Wilbur is right. I think I also stated that above. For us to win the arbitration we had to prove that 1. We deserve the money and 2. The city can afford it.
So far, I have been very disappointed with city counsel. They won't even meet with the FOP to discuss the arbitration ruling. They have had meetings with the city administration but refuse to meet with us. The FOP would be glad to meet with the city counsel and explain how we won the arbitration.
RM. I know that you are friends with the city administrators and I'm not going to call anyone out by name on the board but do you realize that their income projections were off by 12 million dollars last year. The city made 12 million more dollars to put into the budget then they projected. This practice of misestamating has been a constant thing over the years. They grossly under cut their projected income rate for the last five years so I don't have much faith in them saying that the money is there this year but won't be next year. Even though that point is unfounded because this contract will be expired after this fiscal year and we will be negotiating a new one again next fiscal year.
As far as the firemen and the other city employees, it is not written anywhere that we all have to get the same raises. In fact, other city employes have gotten raises in the past and we have not. In fact, the other city employees in the AFSCME union should have gotten a raise higher than other city employees when they won their arbitration with the city but the city could ignore their ruling. The fireman have gotten better raises and contracts than the other city employees and police in the past and nothing was said. This all or nothing argument only surfaces when the city losses an arbitration.
Mayor Taylor is from the private sector before this. When she gave raises to her company employees, did she always give the same raises to everyone? Or did different raises go to employees with different job titles, employees working in different departments and/or employees with different responsiblities?
Kathy Taylor a liar? Well, Duh!
Why would anyone expect anything different from a candidate who hedged on a formal response about voting twice in the 2000 election until her toadies confirmed that any real evidence had been already destroyed by the Tulsa County Election Board. Her deer in the headlights look when she was confronted with it told me all I needed to know.
Revenue projections are for 537 million dollars this year.
Twelve million is a very small amount to be wrong in such a budget.
I would much rather have conservative estimates from budget professionals than overly-optimistic ones that require emergency budget cuts and reducing city services.
Were the police union arguments based on some other budget projections than the ones prepared by the city?
Um, Conan, Tim Harris' investigation into the voting exonerated Kathy Taylor. You'd better find another strawman to knock down.
And no one has answered the question on whether the mediator used budget projects that include raises to the other city unions.
I'm all for the cops getting raises. But you'd better not break the bank in doing so.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Um, Conan, Tim Harris' investigation into the voting exonerated Kathy Taylor. You'd better find another strawman to knock down.
And no one has answered the question on whether the mediator used budget projects that include raises to the other city unions.
I'm all for the cops getting raises. But you'd better not break the bank in doing so.
All Tim Harris' investigation revealed was exactly what Taylor's toadies found out- the signature records were destroyed per protocol, the evidence no longer existed. It doesn't mean she didn't. Her reaction and response were pretty fishy for someone who was innocent.
If she was so innocent, then why did she come up with such vague and tentative answers when confronted, instead of saying: "I don't remember, I'll have to get back with you on that." She never stated firmly that she didn't vote in both elections for several hours, only after some research was done by her camp at the TCEB.
Aside from that little fib, Taylor is a stereo-typical politician: Make as many promises to get elected as you can, then hope everyone forgets what all you promised after you get in office. No worse or no better than many other elected officials.
Back to the subject ...
Does anyone know whether the mediator considered other union contracts that are up for renewal when he/she considered the police pay hike?
Rwarn - I'm not sure anyone can answer your question for sure without have the arbitrators filings and such, but I would offer this thought. Last year when the department went to arbitration, the arbitrator found that not only did the officers deserve the raise they were requesting (based on other departments) but there was money in the budget for those raises. His reasoning for NOT siding with the FOP was that there wasn't not money for all other departments and it would be detrimental for employee morale (all city employees) to give the police their raises.
Because this is an independent arbitrator, I would think he or she takes the big picture into consideration. The city has said the money is there, they are saying it won't be there for future years. That's not a fair argument at all. They operate on a year to year budget, they can't already be saying what they can and can't afford next year.
I also have to agree with MH's point about companies not giving across the board same raises. Within my own department and on my same level, there was a wide range of increases. It may not matter, but I thought it should be mentioned this 8% raise would be effective January 1, not retro to July 1, it's only for 6 months not 12.
And no one has answered the question on whether the mediator used budget projects that include raises to the other city unions.
The FOP does not negotiate on behalf of other city employees. Nor does the city want other city employees to join a union. I'm confident, that if the City wants to play the "me too" games, the FOP would be more then interested in putting a "me too" clause into a future contract, as the FOP has received lower pay raises then firefighters in the past. But I promise you, the City will never go for that.
If the city says the FOP award would force them to grant raises to all city employees, perhaps the FOP should look into collecting monthly union dues from the rest of the 2500+ city employees, since the city seems to be claiming the FOP is negotiating on their behalf as well.
The City tried to play the games of saying they can't afford a raise for all city employees with the arbitrator, but he kept cutting them off saying the FOP does not negotiate for other city employees.
If the city wants to say that "me too" will attach to all other city employees, whether they are represented by a union or not, I say great!!
It is interesting that police or related have commented on this thread. MH2010 and Wilbur are both policemen and tulsa fan is in the FOP auxilary.
I appreciate their contributions to the discussion. Where is copperhead?
You folk obviously have more insight to the whole process than someone like me who gets all their info on this subject from the Tulsa World and TulsaNow.
I sure wish the arbitrator's information and decision were available to read on this forum.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Um, Conan, Tim Harris' investigation into the voting exonerated Kathy Taylor.
I wouldn't call avoiding prosecution because the statute of limitations had run out being exonerated, I'd call that getting away with it red handed. Exonerated? Really? That stinks like a freshly spun steaming hot off the press Whirled pseudo journalist propaganda piece. Do the water fountains at the Whirled dispense the Kool-Aid or does it just flow through the HVAC systems in a fine mist?
BTW, that "investigation" left more questions than answers.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Um, Conan, Tim Harris' investigation into the voting exonerated Kathy Taylor.
I wouldn't call avoiding prosecution because the statute of limitations had run out being exonerated, I'd call that getting away with it red handed. Exonerated? Really? That stinks like a freshly spun steaming hot off the press Whirled pseudo journalist propaganda piece. Do the water fountains at the Whirled dispense the Kool-Aid or does it just flow through the HVAC systems in a fine mist?
BTW, that "investigation" left more questions than answers.
A.A.................. You know.. I have seen you appear before the City Council...
Your concerns, for the most part, always make sense.. You seem to be well mannered.. Well educated.. and a polite individual..
I have yet to see you go before them and argue or voice concern over an issue that means little or nothing to the subject at hand... or the Future of Tulsa..
You, more than likely, could contribute more to the success of subjects at hand than speaking in partisan tongues..
Just an observation..I do not believe that $800K is the stuff that a conspiracy is made of...
I do think it may be a budget suggestion that came from the wrong side of someones brain..
As MH2010 has said "this contract expires in a year..."
We would like to think we are moving in a positive direction with the Police Department. After the Chief Been incident we needed to mend the schism that has formed between City Hall and the Departments that serve our City..
We will see if that is the trend that is followed..
Police: 8% Sought: Mayor calling for vote on raise
By BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer
9/14/2006
Mayor Kathy Taylor has called for a Dec. 12 special election for the public to decide whether Tulsa police should receive an 8 percent raise.
Taylor recently signed the election's proclamation, according to documents filed with the City Clerk's Office.
The Tulsa County Election Board has not yet received the paperwork, officials there said.
First, the mayor and representatives from the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 93 must agree on the way the issue will be worded on the ballot, Deputy Mayor Tom Baker said.
FOP President Darin Filak said his union will conduct a full-blown campaign to get its message to voters.
"I think the people of Tulsa recognize the importance of public safety," he said, noting that a civilian group is forming called Citizens Organizing for Public Safety, or COPS.
"Our officers are being paid less than those in the suburbs and deserve better for putting their lives on the line every day."
The raise would make Tulsa more competitive with Owasso, Broken Arrow and Oklahoma City in hiring new officers and retaining veterans, Filak said.
It also would force
city officials to truly make public safety a funding priority, he said.
Filak said he doesn't know how much money the union will spend on the effort but that it will include TV and radio spots, mailings and all of the other components of a traditional campaign.
"We're determined to win this," he said.
Baker said the city cannot conduct a campaign with taxpayer dollars but may hold public informational meetings.
The situation is similar to the votes for third-penny and general obligation bond packages. The Tulsa Metro Chamber in the past has paid for campaigns to see that those initiatives passed.
Baker said he doesn't know whether a group will step forward to fund a campaign against the raises.
A neutral arbitrator last month awarded the 8 percent, across-the-board raise to be effective Jan. 1, which was the best offer submitted by the FOP during unsuccessful negotiations with the city.
City officials had offered a 4.5 percent raise for the entire fiscal year, from July 1 to June 30, arguing it was the best they could do.
The pay increases for the 800-member force would add $940,000 to the current budget and even more to the next budget cycle, since it would be for a full 12 months.
By law, the arbitrator's decision gave Taylor two options: accept the award or request an election and let the voters decide.
This is the first time an arbitrator's award has led to an election since the state enacted the option in the late 1990s.
A deal still could be reached between the city and union leaders at any point leading up to the election.
"We're willing to continue talks," Filak said.
Taylor is giving the city's 1,420 nonunion employees one-time bonuses averaging 2 percent of their salaries in their final checks this month.
The City Council is set to approve numerous budget amendments this week to pull together the $1,681,571 that the bonuses will cost from various city operating funds.
Raises for other union employees, including firefighters, laborers and emergency communications workers, are still up in the air.
In council committee meetings earlier this week, Budget Director Pat Connelly said the firefighters are taking a "me, too" approach to the situation with the police.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Barber 581-8322
brian.barber@tulsaworld.com
Here is a link to the FOP website:
http://www.fop93.com/
If you look under "Announcements" there are three links to PDF files. The first two are documents used in the Arbitration that the FOP won against the city. The third PDF file is the testimony of the City of Tulsa Budget director. The testimony is quite lengthy but I hope people read it.
Thanks MH 2010.
I plan to read all the details this weekend.
Two problems I have is I percieve this as a cop-out (no pun intended) on the part of Mayor Taylor. I'm assuming the average pay is what, $35 to $40K? That's only $233 to $266 per month, after taxes, that's pretty imperceptible.
Secondly, why put it out there a month or so after the November general election when voter turn-out will be pathetic and the cost of it winds up taking that much more budget money away from a pay raise. Is it too late by election rules to get it on the GE ballot when more people will vote on it?
Certainly, there have got to be some other wasteful areas of the city budget that can be cut to give our police force a raise. Do we really need a $105,000 per year economic development director when our police force is being paid less than those in surrounding communities and OKC?
This, and many other "budget" problems faced by the City of Tulsa, could be addressed with one action...
Yet it seems not a soul is brave enough to utter the words...
Stop paying the Metro Chamber Hotel - Motel Tax...
It's a slush fund that everyone seems to pretend doesn't exist.
Starting pay for an apprentice police officer is just under $34,000 per year.
The personnel services budget for the Tulsa Police department for this fiscal year is $67, 652,000. That number includes pay and benefits.
If I take that number and divide by 800 officers, it equals $84,565 per officer.
Generally, pay is about two thirds of the equation and benefits one third, which would make the average pay for a Tulsa Police officer in the mid-fifty thousand dollars per year.
It is my understanding the cities alleged 4.5% last best offer is no more than an adjustment to ingrade steps (all ready budgeted) with no more than a 2.3% increased to those in final steps. The cities offer must be examined closely. Remember in the campaign we were going to have 200 additional officers. Have yet employed an additional officer only those for replacements. Have to examine everything that is coming from city hall extremely careful.
quote:
Originally posted by BASleuth
It is my understanding the cities alleged 4.5% last best offer is no more than an adjustment to ingrade steps (all ready budgeted) with no more than a 2.3% increased to those in final steps. The cities offer must be examined closely. Remember in the campaign we were going to have 200 additional officers. Have yet employed an additional officer only those for replacements. Have to examine everything that is coming from city hall extremely careful.
If you're a non-union City employee, you would pee yourself in excitement if presented with any of those numbers being thrown out regarding the police considering what you've received over the last 5 years.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Starting pay for an apprentice police officer is just under $34,000 per year.
The personnel services budget for the Tulsa Police department for this fiscal year is $67, 652,000. That number includes pay and benefits.
If I take that number and divide by 800 officers, it equals $84,565 per officer.
Generally, pay is about two thirds of the equation and benefits one third, which would make the average pay for a Tulsa Police officer in the mid-fifty thousand dollars per year.
RM-
Is the $67.6 mil for the entire department or just the officers? Just curious to know how many serve in a support or admin capacity on the force.
$84-plus thousand for each officer would be some very expensive insurance and a hefty pension contribution, in addition to the employer's SSI contribution. That's just not computing with me.
What is the pay for a tenured officer?
I found the pay grades on the Tulsa police website.
Yearly Salary
Police Officer $ 37,451.64 to $ 55,333.12
Corporal $ 46,823.50 to $ 61,384.59
Sergeant $ 52,976.34 to $ 64,453.82
Captain $ 66,364.31 to $ 74,650.82
Major $ 78,572.04 to $ 84,983.51
Deputy Chief $ 92,846.95 to $100,423.27
These are the benefits listed on the website as well..
Benefits
EDUCATION PAY : Upon completion of the probationary period, officers who have earned a bachelor's degree receive $100 per month incentive pay. Officers can also receive $600 annually for continuing education.
LONGEVITY PAY : After three years of service, all officers receive longevity pay of $ 9.60 per month for each year of service. Each subsequent year, the rate increases at $ 9.60 per month to a maximum of $ 240.00 per month with 25 years of service.
MISCELLANEOUS BENEFITS : Uniform, accessories, and equipment (including firearms) are supplied upon graduation; thereafter, an annual uniform allowance is provided. Two credit unions are available. Free counseling and psychological assistance is provided.
VACATION BENEFITS : The table below shows the number of hours earned per year based on number of years service on the Department. Years of service: 1-5 5-10 10-15 15-20 20-25 25 & Over
Annual Vacation Hours: 112 128 168 184 200 208
HOLIDAY BENEFITS : Twelve Holidays are observed annually.
SICK LEAVE / FUNERAL LEAVE : Paid sick leave accrues at the rate of 1 (one) day of each full calendar month of service, with a maximum of 150 days. After accrual of 120 days sick leave, days earned may be converted to vacation leave. Some sick leave may be used for necessary care or attending to immediate family members. Funeral leave upon the death of an immediate family member is granted with pay for up to 3 working days.
MEDICAL INSURANCE : All officers are eligible for major medical insurance. They may choose from three plans administered by the City; an HMO plan, a managed medical care plan, and an indemnity plan. The City pays 90% of the cost of medical and 100% of dental insurance for the employee and part of the medical for dependents.
LIFE INSURANCE : All employees receive a paid life insurance policy in the amount of two times their annual salary. (NOTE : A separate, immediate death benefit of $ 4,000 is paid by the state.) Life insurance is also available for dependents at a minimal cost to the employee.
LONG TERM DISABILITY : The City of Tulsa also offers a Long Term Disability Benefit. If an employee is off work for more than 90 days, (due to illness or injury) 60% of their monthly salary can be paid for up to 24 months.
RETIREMENT : Every officer is eligible for retirement benefits after 20 years of service, regardless of age. An officer becomes vested in 10 years. Benefits are 50% of an officer's salary averaged over the highest salaried 30 consecutive months of the last 60 months of credit service. For service beyond 20 years, benefits increase 2-1/2% annually to a maximum of 75% after 30 years. An officer who terminates before being vested is eligible to have contributions returned.
DEFERRED COMPENSATION : A Deferred Compensation Program is available to full time employees to shelter a portion of the gross annual salary from income taxes. The deferred income is placed into an investment fund handled through the City.
WORKER'S COMPENSATION AND SALARY CONTINUANCE: Accidental injuries arising in the course of employment with the City of Tulsa are covered under the guidelines of the Worker's Compensation Law of the State of Oklahoma. Generally, all reasonable and necessary medical expenses are paid, and weekly compensation payments are received during the period of time off work.
A separate, highly-desirable benefit available to City employees is "Injury Leave". Instead of weekly compensation payments, Injury Leave provides full salary up to 180 calendar days for job-related injuries.
That explains a lot. Thanks for the research. Now the other part of the question, was the personnel budget just for officers/detectives or support/clerical/admin as well?
I don't know. I am also interested in how many are in each pay grade. How many captains do we have?
I was surprised to see that a twenty year officer gets five weeks of vacation a year.
That seems like a lot.
It is my understanding the cities alleged 4.5% last best offer is no more than an adjustment to ingrade steps (all ready budgeted) with no more than a 2.3% increased to those in final steps. The cities offer must be examined closely. Remember in the campaign we were going to have 200 additional officers. Have yet employed an additional officer only those for replacements. Have to examine everything that is coming from city hall extremely careful.
This City is putting out the false claim of a 4.5% pay increase, which is false. While SOME officers might see a 4.5% increase under the City's plan, the vast majority of officers would receive ZERO. Again, you have to compare last year's total salary dollars to this year's total salary dollars. The City's change from last year to this year is 2.3%. The exact same thing other city employees got.
Do police officers make more then most other city employees? Yes. Which job has the highest educational requirements? Police. Are there jobs within the city that have higher educational requirements? Yes - and those jobs pay even more. Do other city employees have to wear a bullet proof vest to work each day? No. Do other employees have to carry a gun to work in order to protect themselves? No. We all picked our profession and went in knowing full well that some professions pay more then others. All the FOP is asking is to be paid AVERAGE. Not more then average and not at the top of the scale. Just average. Why does the City insist they pay their police officers, or every other city employee for that matter, at the bottom of the pay scale. Terrific message to send to potential new employees - "come join our team and we'll pay you less then your counterparts."
quote:
Originally posted by BASleuth
Remember in the campaign we were going to have 200 additional officers. Have to examine everything that is coming from city hall extremely careful.
The person who said during the campaign that we were going to have 200 more police officers was Randi Miller.
She doesn't work at city hall.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I don't know. I am also interested in how many are in each pay grade. How many captains do we have?
I was surprised to see that a twenty year officer gets five weeks of vacation a year.
That seems like a lot.
I don't think so. I want my police officers to have substantial vacation times. After all, burn out is terribly high, and I want them well rested. Most high stress jobs have similar vacation time--I belive that air traffic controllers have a similar vacation package. Most employers with which I am familiar offer their empoyees four weeks after 10-20 years of service. I believe an additional week for police officers is reasonable.
I did not know that.
I looked up some other benefit packages at comparable cities and it is pretty common for that much vacation time with that much time on the job.
I stand corrected (and I need a vacation).
I need a vacation, too. Funny, though, my kids seem to feel that they are entitled to go with me. Whom do they think I am trying to take a vacation from?
What stood out for me was that cops have 90% of their medical insurance and 100% of their dental insurance paid by the city.
That's a HUGE benefit. That means more take-home pay. Most employers I've heard about do an 80% payout, max, for health. And most of them have yearly caps for dental, too.
In case you missed this:
http://www.fop93.com/TaylorPromises.html
What stood out for me was that cops have 90% of their medical insurance and 100% of their dental insurance paid by the city.
That is only for the employee and does not include family benefits. Family coverage is much higher. And this does not only apply to police, it applies to other city employees as well. When the city negotiates insurance packages with insurance providers, it does so on behalf of all city employees except for firefighters (they are on their own plan). And there is no retiree insurance benefits.
You might also look at what is missing:
No 401(k) benefits. While government employees have a similar program known as 457(b), the City of Tulsa does not match one penny, like most employers do.
There is no such thing as profit sharing, bonuses, ....... like so many in the private sector.
And remember, when the FOP asks to be paid AVERAGE (compared to an agreed upon list of other similar size cities), benefits other then pay are also taken into consideration. You will find most other governments' insurance, vacation, .... are similar.
Can one of you officers that post here report how many policemen or women are at each classification?
How many captains, sergeants, etc. do we have?
I am also interested in the list of comparable cities that Tulsa is matched against to find an average salary.
Another thing to consider is the police get a guaranteed step increase every year over and above what they negotiate for a "raise" (in this case, the 4.5% vs 8%)....oddly, that's often left out of the argument.
Pretty sure the non-union City employees don't enjoy that benefit.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
You might also look at what is missing:
No 401(k) benefits. While government employees have a similar program known as 457(b), the City of Tulsa does not match one penny, like most employers do.
There is no such thing as profit sharing, bonuses, ....... like so many in the private sector.
The City, for a few short years, had a tiny matching "program" but that went away with one of the many budget cuts several years ago.
Also, since the City does not turn a "profit", they would be hard pressed to offer employees any profit sharing or a bonus of any kind. The closes thing they come to that is the longevity pay that the police officers get.
Additionally, they are able to receive money for continuing their education where the non-union City employees do not; that was another result of past years' budget and pay cuts that went, in part, towards funding the police and fire raises.
"Another thing to consider is the police get a guaranteed step increase every year over and above what they negotiate for a "raise" (in this case, the 4.5% vs 8%)....oddly, that's often left out of the argument.
Pretty sure the non-union City employees don't enjoy that benefit."
Step-Increases are not guaranteed. Each year each officer has an evaluation of their performance. If they meet certain standards then they are allowed to increase to the next step. The step increase is done to encourage good performance.
"The City, for a few short years, had a tiny matching "program" but that went away with one of the many budget cuts several years ago.
Also, since the City does not turn a "profit", they would be hard pressed to offer employees any profit sharing or a bonus of any kind. The closes thing they come to that is the longevity pay that the police officers get.
Additionally, they are able to receive money for continuing their education where the non-union City employees do not; that was another result of past years' budget and pay cuts that went, in part, towards funding the police and fire raises."
-The non-union city employees received cuts in pay as a result of an economic downturn that affected Tulsa and the surrounding area. These conditions caused the entire city budget to shrink and budget cuts effected everyone. The public safety budget was effected but the unions were able to help find ways to reduce the budget without cuting salaries.
So, if you're a good cop, you've nothing to worry about.
So, with "step increases," that 8 percent raise that's been mediated goes up to a 12.5 percent raise.
Not bad.
Too bad we're 16% below market survey and we require a four year college degree where most cities in our survey do not. A 12% raise for this year would almost make me average to other officers in other cities. Just think, if we get this raise, we are that much closer to being average![:D]
Can one of you officers that post here report how many policemen or women are at each classification?
1 Chief
3 Deputy Chiefs
8 Majors (Division Commanders)
Approx 24 Captains
Approx 80 Sergeants
Approx 80 Corporals
Approx 600+ Officers
"Another thing to consider is the police get a guaranteed step increase every year over and above what they negotiate for a "raise" (in this case, the 4.5% vs 8%)....oddly, that's often left out of the argument.
Not entirely correct. There are only 9 steps at the officer level, which means, after nine years, you are topped out in pay and are at the mercy of pay increases negotiated with the city. The higher in rank you go, the lower number of 'step' increases there are. And remember, we are comparing ourselves to other police departments, who do the same thing.
Pretty sure the non-union City employees don't enjoy that benefit."
Untrue. While civilian employees don't have a step program similar to police, they do have step increases based on the city's 'matrix' system. Very hard to explain.
Additionally, they are able to receive money for continuing their education where the non-union City employees do not; that was another result of past years' budget and pay cuts that went, in part, towards funding the police and fire raises."
I'm not aware of this. Please cite your source.
I am also interested in the list of comparable cities that Tulsa is matched against to find an average salary.
Austin, San Antonio, Kansas City, Tucson, Denver, Omaha, Colorado Springs, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis and Dallas.
Market survey compared to what? The metro area? The state? The country?
Just curious.
The City of Tulsa and the FOP agree to a 10 city survey to see what other officers are making at compariable cities. These are the cities that were agreed upon and used.
Austin, San Antonio, Kansas City, Tucson, Denver, Omaha, Colorado Springs, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis and Dallas.
Of those cities you listed, Tulsa's average cost of living is lower than all of them but two -- OKC and Omaha -- and they are within 1-2% of Tulsa.
The others listed are 4-12% higher in average cost of living. (Source: CNN Money)
Did it occur to you, that factoring in cost of living, that Tulsa may *already* be at the average level of the region you cited?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Of those cities you listed, Tulsa's average cost of living is lower than all of them but two -- OKC and Omaha -- and they are within 1-2% of Tulsa.
The others listed are 4-12% higher in average cost of living. (Source: CNN Money)
Did it occur to you, that factoring in cost of living, that Tulsa may *already* be at the average level of the region you cited?
That has already been factored in and we are still 16% below survey.
The others listed are 4-12% higher in average cost of living. (Source: CNN Money)Did it occur to you, that factoring in cost of living, that Tulsa may *already* be at the average level of the region you cited?
The FOP has fought for a list of cities for years to use as an average. Of course, the City wanted to use the 10 least paid cities and the FOP wanted to use to 10 most paid cities. After I can't tell you how many years, the two sides agreed to the use of the 10 cities listed. Will we ever find 10 cities exactly like Tulsa, no. We need to start someplace.
And when you ask potential applicants why they didn't pick Tulsa, they cite wages as the number one reason they went someplace else. You can say they went someplace else that cost more to live, but they still went someplace other then Tulsa.
At last year's arbitration, the City got blasted by the arbitrator for using cities with a total population of 2000 and trying to justify why that compares to a city the size of Tulsa at 380,000+. Anybody want to guess where the City's priorities are?
Again, the FOP is only asking for AVERAGE. Nothing higher.
I really don't think average is too much to ask for. Hopefully, if the vote passes we will be able to hire from a better pool of recruits.
I took a small sample from the cities you mentioned. It was hard to find the information on some of the cities listed.
I took the starting pay for an academy graduated starting police officer.
Tulsa Starting $ 37,451.64
OKC Starting $ 39,379.68
Omaha Starting $ 36,347.00
Austin Starting $ 44,570.00
San Antonio Starting $ 38,448.00
Tucson Starting $ 38.272.00
Kansas City Starting $ 38,304.00
The average is $ 38,967.47
Tulsa officers are paid lower than everybody except Omaha.
If you add 8% to Tulsa officer's pay, The new beginning salary is $40,447.08 which would be higher than everybody but Austin.
If you took the 4.5 per cent that was offered to the officers, the new pay would be $39,136.96 per year or $169.49 above average.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I took a small sample from the cities you mentioned. It was hard to find the information on some of the cities listed.
I took the starting pay for an academy graduated starting police officer.
Tulsa Starting $ 37,451.64
OKC Starting $ 39,379.68
Omaha Starting $ 36,347.00
Austin Starting $ 44,570.00
San Antonio Starting $ 38,448.00
Tucson Starting $ 38.272.00
Kansas City Starting $ 38,304.00
The average is $ 38,967.47
Tulsa officers are paid lower than everybody except Omaha.
If you add 8% to Tulsa officer's pay, The new beginning salary is $40,447.08 which would be higher than everybody but Austin.
If you took the 4.5 per cent that was offered to the officers, the new pay would be $39,136.96 per year or $169.49 above average.
Did you check to see which police departments require a 4 year college degree?
The 8% raise would help us greatly in attracting a better applicant pool. We would be almost ahead of the curve for once! Of course that is considering that OKC, Omaha, Austin, San Antonio, Tucson, and Kansas City do not get raises this year! Even if they did, maybe we wouldn't lose anymore officers to Broken Arrow, Moore or Mustang, OK!
But let's not forget that there are other officers besides the ones just out of the academy class. Every police department and hopefully the city administration wants to retain the officers it hires. Experienced and Veteran officers are good to have around. They tend to know the area better and the criminals better than any first year officer. Were you able to check on them? When you do you will find that those are the ones that are anywhere between 10-20% below market survey. They are the ones that make up most of the officers on the Tulsa Police Department.
To get a better over all picture, you need to check the steps of all officers and how many steps other departments have? You also have to check the steps for supervisors. Did you know that first year Broken Arrow Sgts make more that Tulsa Police first year Sgts?
Lastly, The city did not offer a 4.5% raise for all officers. They offered a 2.3% raise for all officers and then adding an additional top step at the top of the pay chart.
So, regardless of what happens, the pay is going to be above average in the market, according to Michael's data.
And Michael's raw numbers do *not* factor in cost of living of those cities, of which Tulsa is lower than most. That's why I keep bring it up. $40,000 in Austin goes less far than $40,000 in Tulsa.
I think it's wise to wait and see until the other city contracts are finished, see what (if any) money's left in the city budget, and then make a decision on cop raises.
I think Michael's right in what he was surmising some weeks ago -- that the mayor's keeping her options open. After all, the police union and city can strike a deal anytime right up before the election.
I tried to get the information on sergeants, but it was too difficult from my rudimentary search on the internet. Starting pay was more easily found.
I am not against the officer's on this matter.
I just got riled up when Rico started the thread attacking the way he did and then on another forum Paul Tay is trying to start a recall petition on the mayor.
I also know the moral problems that occurred when other city employees took pay cuts under LaFortune when the police got raises. I also remember how the police union treated Mayor Savage when she argued with them over pay.
The police union campaigned against Savage, then LaFortune, and now some are making very mean statements against Taylor. It is hard to believe they will ever not attack a sitting mayor.
Everybody wants the police to be the best we can attract and pay has to be important. I am also amazed that most people want the police to get raises without knowing what they are currently paid.
I applaud you police posters for sharing the information. The better informed we all are the better we can all help this city.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
So, regardless of what happens, the pay is going to be above average in the market, according to Michael's data.
And Michael's raw numbers do *not* factor in cost of living of those cities, of which Tulsa is lower than most. That's why I keep bring it up. $40,000 in Austin goes less far than $40,000 in Tulsa.
I think it's wise to wait and see until the other city contracts are finished, see what (if any) money's left in the city budget, and then make a decision on cop raises.
I think Michael's right in what he was surmising some weeks ago -- that the mayor's keeping her options open. After all, the police union and city can strike a deal anytime right up before the election.
No. That is not correct.
Michael's numbers show the base starting salary for a first year officer out of the academy in only six of the 10 city survey. For those six cities, first year officers will be slightly above average. That will affect about 50 officers. His numbers do not show any other pay step for other officers, supervisors ect. His numbers are a small snap shot of the overall picture.
Further, I think the people of Tulsa want the mayor to prioritize public safety. Hopefully, people will vote that way on Dec. 12.
"We must prioritize funding for police and firefighters" - Kathy Taylor
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I tried to get the information on sergeants, but it was too difficult from my rudimentary search on the internet. Starting pay was more easily found.
I am not against the officer's on this matter.
I just got riled up when Rico started the thread attacking the way he did and then on another forum Paul Tay is trying to start a recall petition on the mayor.
I also know the moral problems that occurred when other city employees took pay cuts under LaFortune when the police got raises. I also remember how the police union treated Mayor Savage when she argued with them over pay.
The police union campaigned against Savage, then LaFortune, and now some are making very mean statements against Taylor. It is hard to believe they will ever not attack a sitting mayor.
Everybody wants the police to be the best we can attract and pay has to be important. I am also amazed that most people want the police to get raises without knowing what they are currently paid.
I applaud you police posters for sharing the information. The better informed we all are the better we can all help this city.
Sorry You got ticked Mike..
When any elected official ,that by the way has promised to carry out the will of the people, states one thing to get elected and shows all indications of going the other direction once they get the job... I kinda get ticked off too..
When an unbiased arbitrator sides with the Police.. That tells me it needs to be addressed..
It is astounding that some people will get all giddy over a stinking sports arena.Praise each other for the many more millions they can pour into it..
Yet; their City is better known for the record breaking crime rate..
One thing is for certain, if I were a Tourist, hearing about a City of people building..
- Ballparks
- Islands
- Arenas
- etc.
and last but not least... Building a crime rate that is beginning to feel like Compton CA..
That would be the place on the map I would want to visit...
Not because of all the gizmos... I would like to have a closer look at these Citizens..
Then take a sample of the water.. have it analyzed.. and make damn sure there was none of that near my Family or Business..
I think that some feel that the "Crime Issue" is something that can be postponed until the tax base grows..
Ask MH... it doesn't work that way..
Sorry,.... you are busy trying to find a flaw in the Arbitrator's Work... Think about Crime later..
Save that "Budget Money"..
To continue, in our current fashion,.. we will be needing another Trauma Unit soon..
But here's your problem. The arbitrator deals with the information that's available *at that time* (my emphasis). If other employees of the city get raises before the end of the year, then the city budget changes.
I'm for cops getting their raises. But I'm not for the city running a deficit to do so. The budget's really tight right now. There's no doubt about that. Even the most contrarian city councilors have admitted as such.
The city shouldn't spend money it doesn't have, that's all. Let's wait a spell and get a clearer picture of the city's finances.
And who knows? Maybe a police contract will be hammered out *before* there's an election.
But here's your problem. The arbitrator deals with the information that's available *at that time* (my emphasis). If other employees of the city get raises before the end of the year, then the city budget changes.
I'm for cops getting their raises. But I'm not for the city running a deficit to do so. The budget's really tight right now. There's no doubt about that. Even the most contrarian city councilors have admitted as such.
The city shouldn't spend money it doesn't have, that's all. Let's wait a spell and get a clearer picture of the city's finances.
And who knows? Maybe a police contract will be hammered out *before* there's an election.
The fiscal year is the same for all departments and everyone negotiates with the city at the same time. Are you saying that other city employees should get their raises before police employees? Do you think public safety should be a priority of this administration?
As far as the city budget and "the city spending money it doesn't have" I encourage you to read the testimony of the City of Tulsa Budget Director. You can find it here...http://www.fop93.com/
"We must prioritize funding for police and firefighters" - Mayor Kathy Taylor
The budget's really tight right now. There's no doubt about that. Even the most contrarian city councilors have admitted as such.
Seriously? Have you read the testimony of the City's budget director? Who admits he consistently under estimates the City's budget picture and missed the City's income by $12M alone last year (a $12M surplus), and under projects from year to year. (When the City ends up with a $12M surplus, but says they only have $4M left, do you ever wonder how the other $8M was spent?)
Who admitted that Tulsa set a historical record last year in income from sales taxes, set a historical record in income from use taxes, set a historical record in income from selling utilities, and fully expects to set new records this fiscal year in all three catagories again.
But we're to believe The budget's really tight right now.
Once again, the FOP has to prove to the arbitrator the City has the money available to grant raises, not that is just deserves raises.
If you add 8% to Tulsa officer's pay, The new beginning salary is $40,447.08 which would be higher than everybody but Austin.
You can't use starting pay to judge a police department's pay. Most cities, including Tulsa, attempt to lure new recruits by boasting about their starting pay. The problem with that is, your starting pay is only good for a year. You have to look at all the pay grades and the steps contained within those pay grades. That is where Tulsa falls so far behind. We may start out higher then someplace else, then fall to the bottom as each year passes by. The further the top steps fall behind, the more turnover it creates as officers go to other agencies.
quote:
Sorry You got ticked Mike..
It's ok, Rico. I know you use your power for good.
OK Wilbur. I know that starting pay is a poor way to show comparison, but I don't have the ability to research all the pay ranks for all the cities used as a comparison.
Can you post what a corporal or a sergeant makes in Tulsa and the other agreed cities?
Please make the case.
Can you post what a corporal or a sergeant makes in Tulsa and the other agreed cities?
It's much more complicated then that. A Sergeant in Tulsa is equivalent to a Lieutenant in Oklahoma City, so you have to compare like duties as opposed to just ranks, then compare wages. So, can I post those figures, no. Not that involved in the process.
Lets look at it this way, there seems to be a few here within Tulsa Now who believes Tulsa officers are better off then what the FOP promotes. Yet, even the City will agree Tulsa officers are paid at the bottom of the barrel and have a way to go to get us to AVERAGE. Their only argument, which many disagree with, is they can't afford to.
No Wilbur. The only argument isn't that the city can't afford to.
Posters have also brought up the facts about other negotiations with the fire and labor and trades unions plus the fact that non-union employees have sacrificed pay raises while police have not.
Your argument is...see, I proved you have five dollars in your wallet, now give it to me.
I think it is very appropriate for city officials to be conservative on revenue projections. The law requires a balanced budget and you act as if the budget guys should forecast all sunny skies and no rain.
If they did that and there was a downturn in the economy, then there would have to be cuts in staffing at the end of the fiscal year. Your argument is that because revenue was twelve million dollars over in a 500 million dollar budget this year, you should get a pay raise.
The city is saying that yes, there is money in this year's pot, but there is no projection for it next year.
I think the budget people are being very prudent and you act as if they are purposely hiding money so we can underpay cops.
If you believe that sergeants and long time officers are being underpaid, make your case.
Posters have also brought up the facts about other negotiations with the fire and labor and trades unions plus the fact that non-union employees have sacrificed pay raises while police have not.
I believe we have covered this topic prior. The FOP can ONLY negotiate on behalf of FOP members, not every City of Tulsa employee. AFSCME received larger raises in the past, more then police and fire and there was no outcry at that time for "me too." And you can claim police did not give up pay in the past, but the fact of the matter is police gave up $2.5M in overtime salaries in one year alone.
And the City has certainly captured you right where they want you - to pit one employee group against another. Shame shame. It started with Savage and continues with Taylor. Prior administrations would never have allowed this to happen. Young and Randall always did "me too" with all their employees.
And why do you never bring up the fact Fire got raises when everyone else received nothing? Or is this just anti police?
Your argument is...see, I proved you have five dollars in your wallet, now give it to me.
Then show me where the FOP is requesting all $4M that was left over from last year's $12M surplus!
The city is saying that yes, there is money in this year's pot, but there is no projection for it next year.
You can make that claim with any of the City's expenditures. And if you read the budget director's testimony, he is already predicting record income for next year.
I think it is very appropriate for city officials to be conservative on revenue projections.
I agree.
The law requires a balanced budget and you act as if the budget guys should forecast all sunny skies and no rain.
False! Read the budget director's testimony. Even he got called on the carpet for paiting a rosey picture to the city council, then turns around and paints doom and gloom to the arbitrator for the same time frames. And, like I mentioned before, he is not predicting rain, he is predicting (or shall we say forcasting) sunny skies.
If you believe that sergeants and long time officers are being underpaid, make your case.
If you don't believe that by now, then vote no at the upcoming election. But you will go against even the city, who you so strongly feel can do no wrong, who will tell you that all pay grades and pay levels of police are at the bottom. The FOP and the City both agree Tulsa officers are at the bottom. If you feel all employees deserve pay raises, like I do, then you should want this for police, or any other group for that matter, so the adminstration will feel a duty to "me too" everyone else. That is certainly what I hope for.
I don't know what the firefighters are doing. I haven't seen a thread about their pay. I also don't see them negotiating to use their trucks for their part-time jobs.
You say the city pits one group against another, but you are the ones saying that you should be the priority.
I am not against the police department. My father spent over 20 years as a Tulsa Police officer. I want you guys to get paid fair wages.
I just want the tactics used to be fair and the facts on the table.
Your attacks on the last two mayors and now on the new mayor cause me to believe that you feel that the best strategy is to belittle the budget people and the administration.
You can do better. Show us numbers to prove your point and I am sure you will get your pay raises.
You can do better. Show us numbers to prove your point and I am sure you will get your pay raises.
The FOP has already done that. Thus, the arbitrator's award.
From a Tulsa World editorial: "The Tulsa police force, compared to most cities of its size, is understaffed and underpaid. Tulsa is one of the few cities requiring police to have college degrees."
Michael - please don't be so bitter. How many times can I say each and every employee in the City deserves larger pay raises (including the Mayor and Council I might add). But if every employee group constantly believes the doom and gloom presented each year by the budget people, all employee groups will only go backwards. We're not even keeping up with inflation, yet the City continues to bring in record income. And if we can't get decent pay raises at times of record income, then when should decent raises be awarded? When times are bad, the city makes the claim of doom and gloom and when times are good they make the same argument.
Your attacks on the last two mayors and now on the new mayor cause me to believe that you feel that the best strategy is to belittle the budget people and the administration.
I'm only quoting the budget director, not belittling him. If it sounds belittling, maybe he doesn't present his argument very well. Have you read his testimony? Please tell me how I have misquoted him? I have only presented items in his own words.
From policepay.net: "Most cities claim to be broke every year. Seldom is this the truth."
From the Tulsa World: "It's déja vu 1994, when then-Mayor Susan Savage earned the undying enmity of the police force by rejecting a request for a 4.5 percent annual pay increase." (By turning down another arbitrator's award.)
I don't know what the firefighters are doing. I haven't seen a thread about their pay. I also don't see them negotiating to use their trucks for their part-time jobs.
Surely we can agree that other city employees have take home cars other then police. And I have a firefighter neighbor with a take home car, but you're right, it's not a fire truck. And when you only work 9 days a month, being a firefighter is your part time job. [:D]
I just want the tactics used to be fair and the facts on the table.
I'm just asking, so don't rant on me - are you saying the tactics used during arbitration were not fair? That a federal mediator somehow allowed unfair tactics to be used?
Look - it's not just me! I've been hearing from every administration since Inhoff that they would like to see their police paid average, yet it never gets done. After more then 20 years of hearing doom and gloom, yet seeing record general fund budgets and record income for the city, it gets old. And I'm confident it gets old for the rest of the city work force as well!
I have no doubt that you convinced the arbitrator. I don't even know who that was or which individuals presented the cases for the police or the city.
I want to be convinced and I haven't been yet.
It is unfair for me to blame you for not making the case. I understand you were not part of the presentation team. But someone has the information.
If this goes to a vote (and I doubt it will) I will have to be convinced that this is a real problem to vote in favor.
The elementary research I showed earlier paints a picture that you deserve a small raise. But you guys keep saying you want a big raise, claiming you only want to be average and that you are 16% below that.
I have faith that this will all work out. I trust the mayor to come up with a solution that is fair to all, police, other city employees and the public.
I think this notion of "you've got the money, give it all to us" is dangerous. We're starting to see some signs of a slowdown in the economy. Should revenues start to slow, don't you think it's prudent to keep *a little* reserve socked away in case things turn sour?
I'm very much a fiscal conservative. I'm very much against spending money that the city doesn't have. Remember, even the most contrarian city councilors admit that the budget is very tight (a fact you all have ignored).
Of course I value public safety. I also value a city that isn't going to run a deficit.
I'm reading a couple supposed law-enforcement officers complaining about the last few mayors, all from different stripes. "All of them are wrong," you essentially say.
Did it occur to you that the police union may be wrong and that these varying mayors may be right?
Councilor Roscoe Turner brought up at the budget subcommittee that next year we will have to find two million extra dollars for EMSA.
I certainly feel ambulance service is an important priority as well. Was that discussed in the arbitrator's hearing?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I think this notion of "you've got the money, give it all to us" is dangerous. We're starting to see some signs of a slowdown in the economy. Should revenues start to slow, don't you think it's prudent to keep *a little* reserve socked away in case things turn sour?
I'm very much a fiscal conservative. I'm very much against spending money that the city doesn't have. Remember, even the most contrarian city councilors admit that the budget is very tight (a fact you all have ignored).
Of course I value public safety. I also value a city that isn't going to run a deficit.
I'm reading a couple supposed law-enforcement officers complaining about the last few mayors, all from different stripes. "All of them are wrong," you essentially say.
Did it occur to you that the police union may be wrong and that these varying mayors may be right?
If you read the City of Tulsa Budget Director testimony (www.FOP93.com) it answers questions regarding what happens if there is an economic slow down and what funds are available for that.
Also we should point out again that
this contract is for one year. If there is some horrible turn of events and the city goes bankrupt next year then they will be in a perfect position to negotiate pay cuts for police employees because the contract will be up for negotiation
again. However, you never know, the union may find a way to save the city even more money without taking a pay cut like it did before.
As far as the last few mayors go, I think they have all had the same budget people working for them (Budget Director, HR department ect. I don't wanna throw names because I didn't like it when someone was throwing officers names around.) Could it be that the city administration is wrong and the mayor and city council have been acting on bad information? An independent arbitrator thought the city administration was wrong and stated that we were right.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Councilor Roscoe Turner brought up at the budget subcommittee that next year we will have to find two million extra dollars for EMSA.
I certainly feel ambulance service is an important priority as well. Was that discussed in the arbitrator's hearing?
City expenses as well as revenues were covered in Arbitration.
EMSA covers a large metro area not just the City of Tulsa. They also cover Sand Springs, Bixby and Jenks. Even though they are dispatched out of the City of Tulsa 911 center(Just FYI, so is the Tulsa County Sheriff office) As a result some councilors and officals have talked about it being more of a Tulsa County/regional function than a City of Tulsa Function. As a result there is alot of discussion on who is going to pay what regarding EMSA. There has also been discussion to follow the Broken Arrow model and have the Tulsa Fire Department take over ambulance service in the City of Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
AFSCME received larger raises in the past, more then police and fire and there was no outcry at that time for "me too."
What year or years did that happened?
Today's World has an article regarding the Police raise issue..
The City Council is cosidering voicing a statement in favor of the raise....
That being said:
One item mentioned, by the Mayor, in the article seems to have merit..
She states "she requested from the FOP suggestions on how this raise might be funded,?
for this contract as well as future contracts.
As of yet there has been no solid response from the FOP or it's members.."
If the Citizens of Tulsa are to back this raise in a Vote there should be the willingness to provide input by the FOP..
The Police have 4 year College Degrees... Their Major may have been in Law Enforcement.. But their minor could have been in Economics, Bus. Adm., etc...
If the Police could help solve this issue it would speak volumes as to their credibility and at the same time get them the Money they deserve..
This could also then apply to negotiations with the Firefighters and City Employees..
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Today's World has an article regarding the Police raise issue..
The City Council is cosidering voicing a statement in favor of the raise....
That being said:
One item mentioned, by the Mayor, in the article seems to have merit..
She states "she requested from the FOP suggestions on how this raise might be funded,?
for this contract as well as future contracts.
As of yet there has been no solid response from the FOP or it's members.."
If the Citizens of Tulsa are to back this raise in a Vote there should be the willingness to provide input by the FOP..
The Police have 4 year College Degrees... Their Major may have been in Law Enforcement.. But their minor could have been in Economics, Bus. Adm., etc...
If the Police could help solve this issue it would speak volumes as to their credibility and at the same time get them the Money they deserve..
This could also then apply to negotiations with the Firefighters and City Employees..
By "Solid response" I think that means what the mayor or city finance likes.
The FOP presented her with the legal documents,graphs, charts and studies that won the arbitration. These items showed where the money could come from. The city finance department told her the documents were wrong even though the arbitrator agreed with them. Next, she wanted the FOP and the Chief's office to cut the police budget by approx. $800,000.00 so the city could fund the pay increase. The FOP and the Chief's office then gave her suggestions about items that could be looked at to save the city money. These items did not equal the $800,000 the city was looking for because the police budget is already tight. She stated that we weren't trying hard enough because our ideas wouldn't save enough money to pay for the raises.
Basically the city wants the police to cut it own budget to pay for the raises the arbitrator awarded us. Which totally goes against what the arbitrator found.
From your post it sounds like you were telling her where she could cut other budgets so you could get raises.
I am curious about where you think the city could save money.
Is this information you could share?
No, on my post above, I was talking about the police budget. I don't think the Chief did and I know the FOP didn't give sugestions on other department budgets.
I'm trying to get a electronic copy of our complete arbitration research or at least our legal brief that won the arbitration. I'm going to try and have it put on the FOP website. I think that would answer alot of questions.
Silly me. I thought that the police union had used actual officers to research and present information with the arbitrator.
Turns out they hired an out of town consultant who specializes in attacking city budgets.
http://www.policepay.net/
These are my favorite lines from their home page...
"We literally teach you what to say and when to say it. What you will learn is applied knowledge, not theory. After you complete our two day course, you will be a "back slapping" politician and lobbyist that knows how to get what he wants at the negotiating table. This is a no BS, hands on, how to course on contract negotiations. "SHOW ME THE MONEY" that's what we do. We're not interested in suing or fighting with your employer. We have only one goal – TO OBTAIN THE BEST PAY AND BENEFITS FOR YOUR DEPARTMENT.
The program includes lively mock negotiations between the union's negotiator "Mad Dog" Bronkoski and the city's negotiator I.M. Duplicitous. We will ask that all attendees remain in their seats until Mr. Duplicitous has exited the room. We do not want any gratuitous punches thrown toward I.M. or his bodyguard".
I also like this statement from their website...
POLICEPAY.NET has been analyzing city budgets and audits since 1987. Most cities claim to be broke every year. Seldom is this the truth. Once we have gone through the finances of your city, you know unequivocally what they can and cannot afford. If you do not address this issue before negotiations begin, you will probably find yourself receiving the "poverty sermon" from the finance director, complete with the full-color PowerPoint presentation that predicts financial ruin for your city. It is very difficult to combat someone at his own game and this is the finance director's game, being played in his ballpark, with his personal umpires, scorekeeper and grounds crew. If you do not deal with this, your negotiations are most likely doomed.
Silly me. I could have just gone to their website and predicted your posts.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Silly me. I thought that the police union had used actual officers to research and present information with the arbitrator.
Turns out they hired an out of town consultant who specializes in attacking city budgets.
http://www.policepay.net/
These are my favorite lines from their home page...
"We literally teach you what to say and when to say it. What you will learn is applied knowledge, not theory. After you complete our two day course, you will be a "back slapping" politician and lobbyist that knows how to get what he wants at the negotiating table. This is a no BS, hands on, how to course on contract negotiations. "SHOW ME THE MONEY" that's what we do. We're not interested in suing or fighting with your employer. We have only one goal – TO OBTAIN THE BEST PAY AND BENEFITS FOR YOUR DEPARTMENT.
The program includes lively mock negotiations between the union's negotiator "Mad Dog" Bronkoski and the city's negotiator I.M. Duplicitous. We will ask that all attendees remain in their seats until Mr. Duplicitous has exited the room. We do not want any gratuitous punches thrown toward I.M. or his bodyguard".
I also like this statement from their website...
POLICEPAY.NET has been analyzing city budgets and audits since 1987. Most cities claim to be broke every year. Seldom is this the truth. Once we have gone through the finances of your city, you know unequivocally what they can and cannot afford. If you do not address this issue before negotiations begin, you will probably find yourself receiving the "poverty sermon" from the finance director, complete with the full-color PowerPoint presentation that predicts financial ruin for your city. It is very difficult to combat someone at his own game and this is the finance director's game, being played in his ballpark, with his personal umpires, scorekeeper and grounds crew. If you do not deal with this, your negotiations are most likely doomed.
Silly me. I could have just gone to their website and predicted your posts.
Damned is the last part wasn't true. They are the experts. We're police officers. I don't think anyone in the PD is as skilled in accounting or city finance as the people that have worked in city finance for years. I know I wouldn't even know how to read the city budget sheets. The smartest thing we did was hire them. Just like about every other police department union.
Here is some more infor about Policepay.net:
POLICEPAY.NET is the nation's leading collective bargaining consultant for police associations. We have been serving associations all across the nation since 1987. All we do is provide collective bargaining services. We do not sell investments or try to tell you how to run your organization. We are 100% focused on police compensation and contract negotiations. Period! Our sole purpose is to help you obtain the best deal possible for your members, as quickly as possible, and with the least amount of hostilities and anxiety.
If you are serious about improving wages and benefits for your department, then you need to get serious about learning and preparing for collective bargaining and negotiations. Long gone are the days that unprepared negotiators can go to city hall and pound on the desk and come away with substantial improvements. Today, cities dedicate a lot of time and resources to collective bargaining. With few exceptions, the city's negotiating team is better prepared and has a real game plan, which most police negotiators do not have. We didn't use them during the negotiation process and we ended up in arbitration. That is when we decided to use them and they did what they said they could do.
I just have a problem with their advertised methods. They have pre-conceived notions that city budget people are all liars and trying to screw the police out of their pay.
They aren't from here and could care less about the other city workers or the citizens in general.
I would be embarassed to hire a lobbyist who bragged about such methods.
It is clear to me that the city was not prepared.
They showed the financials as is (which by the way are completely audited and published each year) and you guys just hired mercenaries to fight your fight for you.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I just have a problem with their advertised methods. They have pre-conceived notions that city budget people are all liars and trying to screw the police out of their pay.
They aren't from here and could care less about the other city workers or the citizens in general.
I would be embarassed to hire a lobbyist who bragged about such methods.
It is clear to me that the city was not prepared.
They showed the financials as is (which by the way are completely audited and published each year) and you guys just hired mercenaries to fight your fight for you.
They are the best in the business. If we are going to spend our union dues we will hire the best. The city budget department use their best people.
"mercenaries"????? You've got to be joking! Did you see the picture of Ron York! Mercenaries in suits! Waving pencils and calculators!!!! HHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA
They operate out of OKC. Ron York started his business because he saw the same problem over and over again. He and his company care about public safety and police officers. That is why he got into the business.
The city was not prepared? You've got to be kidding. (You are really showing your allegiance now.) We do this every year, at the same time. When the impasse was called there was an entire month before arbitration. If they weren't prepared then the mayor should fire whoever was in charge.
Lastly, they did use the city's published financial records. That is what proved our case!
It is time for me to bail out of this conversation.
I will just get madder about the methods.
Of course you hired a guy who wins. You are only acting in your own best interest, not for the city as a whole.
All I can hope for now is the hope that the Mayor can negotiate an agreement so I don't have to keep discussing this topic.
Thanks for the info MH..
I thought a preemptive post about the Mayor's statement would bring more facts to light...
RM... I do not know how to explain it any differently... The interests of the FOP are to take care of the Police that in turn take care of the Citizens of Tulsa..
To say that the FOP is just after the money and could care less about Tulsa is absurd.
Would you place your life on the line for something you did not believe in...?
As for the MONEY... There are much greener pastures... With far less headaches, for a Cop, than Tulsa..
Mercenaries...........Puleeeez Louise... Tulsa could not afford 25 Mercenaries on what they pay the Police..
One suggestion TPD... Place the facts in the hands of the people... Even if you have to print them and drop them out the Helicopter Door..[8D]
Another view from Michael Bates:
Mayor Kathy Taylor is busy trying to wash her hands of any tough decision-making on giving Tulsa police officers the raise that the arbitrator says they deserve. In the Tulsa Whirled today she's quoted as saying:
"So far, I'm pretty disappointed that the police haven't come to help me develop a solution to this problem," the mayor said. "We need to work as a team to figure it out."
She said the "easiest thing would be to accept the raise and not figure out how to pay for it long term, but that is not the fiscally responsible thing to do."
Taylor said she has asked Police Chief Dave Been and the FOP leadership to provide information by Sept. 1 on how to pay for their raise, but hasn't gotten a detailed analysis. She said she plans to call on them again.
"This shouldn't just be up to the mayor to figure out when the FOP and the chief are running the Police Department," she said.
It's hard not to hear a peevish, passive-aggressive tone in that comment.
It's the Mayor's job, as head of the City's executive branch, to allocate the City's financial resources to fit our priorities and meet our obligations. She has a finance department to help her with that task. She's already punted once on serious budget work this year, opting for a utility rate increase instead of limiting the growth of the city budget to the rate of inflation.
A couple of people have suggested a source of funds worth considering: The money currently used to pay the Tulsa Metro Chamber for convention and tourism promotion and economic development. Not all of the money, mind you, just the additional percentage of the hotel/motel tax that the Chamber has been granted every year since the late '80s.
It is reasonable to argue that nothing is more important to Tulsa's ability to attract conventions, tourists, and new businesses, and to retain existing businesses and attract the labor pool they need to grow and thrive, than to get violent crime in Tulsa under control. And to do that we need to retain our best police officers and attract high-quality additions to the force.
I'm pleased to see that four of the City Councilors are backing the raise. It seems to me that the Council could on its own initiative pass a budget amendment to make the funds available for the raise, then appropriate the funds. If the Mayor approves the budget amendment and appropriation, the raise would go in without the need for an election. The election would only go forward if the Mayor vetoed the raise.
quoted from Batesline.com
MH2010 and Wilbur:
You have posted straight forward, honest information on which decisions concerning this matter can be based. Realize there are individuals who will NEVER be satisfied. Will ALWAYS want more data concerning areas unrelated to the matter at issue. Do we accept the arbitrators decision OR the last best offer submitted by the city to arbitration.
Yesterday the mayor said "So far, I'm petty disappointed that the police haven't come to help me develop a solution to this problem" and "This should not be up to the mayor to figure out when the FOP and the chief are running the police department"
A "dame duck" administration was created when announcing the re-instatement of Chief Been it was announced he would be departing within the year.
Yesterday morning indications were you were seeking assistance; That four councilors were introducing a resolution in support of arbitrators award and would discuss it at committee meeting on 9/19/06 at 10:00A.M. Then yesterday afternoon, media reported you had just made an offer to FOP details might be forth coming at your State of the City Speech at noon 9/19/06.
quote:
Originally posted by BASleuth
MH2010 and Wilbur:
You have posted straight forward, honest information on which decisions concerning this matter can be based. Realize there are individuals who will NEVER be satisfied. Will ALWAYS want more data concerning areas unrelated to the matter at issue.
That's kind of a disingenuous accusation to make toward people simple because they don't agree with you.
As most of us expected, the Mayor is continuing to negotiate a settlement to this issue by submitting another proposal to the FOP. They're expected to vote on it soon so it must be a pretty decent offer to them.
There were no other details in the article in today's paper.
The FOP received the offer yesterday and are meeting about the offer on Wednesday. The offer will be discussed at the meeting. At that point, there may be a station house vote of the entire membership to either accept or reject the offer.
I am in hopes that the City has made an offer that will retain the Police we have and be an incentive to attract other Officers to the Tulsa Police Dept.
Earlier in this thread I made reference to Tulsa heading towards a crime rate that was comparable to that of Compton CA...
For some that is thought to be a grandiose comparison...
For those that have never had the Luck to visit Compton...
It is the only City I have ever been in that I would not stop at Red Lights.. You do not want to be anything other than a moving, hard to hit, target...
Although the Population of Compton is smaller than that of Tulsa... it is surrounded by other Municipalities that make it seem twice to three times the size of Tulsa.
Have a look at the Crime Stats Comparison:
Tulsa vs Compton (//%22http://Tulsa.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=Tulsa&s1=OK&c2=Compton+&s2=CA%22)
Keep in mind these stats are from 2004.... The number of Homicides in Tulsa so far this year is 46......
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
I am in hopes that the City has made an offer that will retain the Police we have and be an incentive to attract other Officers to the Tulsa Police Dept.
Earlier in this thread I made reference to Tulsa heading towards a crime rate that was comparable to that of Compton CA...
For some that is thought to be a grandiose comparison...
For those that have never had the Luck to visit Compton...
It is the only City I have ever been in that I would not stop at Red Lights.. You do not want to be anything other than a moving, hard to hit, target...
Although the Population of Compton is smaller than that of Tulsa... it is surrounded by other Municipalities that make it seem twice to three times the size of Tulsa.
Have a look at the Crime Stats Comparison:
Tulsa vs Compton (//%22http://Tulsa.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=Tulsa&s1=OK&c2=Compton+&s2=CA%22)
Keep in mind these stats are from 2004.... The number of Homicides in Tulsa so far this year is 46......
Wow. We should have asked for more than 8%![:D]
Because crime is up, a policeman think that he deserves a bigger pay raise?
Unbelievable.
I didn't know that TPD had trouble attracting quality applicants. I was under the impression they had far more applicants than they had spots for.
Also, why do we require a degree? Granted, it would be nice if every job had a degreed person in it but since most places don't require it, why should we? Never understood that.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
I didn't know that TPD had trouble attracting quality applicants. I was under the impression they had far more applicants than they had spots for.
Also, why do we require a degree? Granted, it would be nice if every job had a degreed person in it but since most places don't require it, why should we? Never understood that.
It has been shown in studies that officers with college degrees are less likely to have discipline problems and perform their jobs better.
In an analysis of disciplinary cases against Florida cops from 1997 to 2002, the International Association of Chiefs of Police found that officers with only high school educations were the subjects of 75% of all disciplinary actions. Officers with four-year degrees accounted for 11% of such actions.
Less than 5% of local police departments with more than 100 officers require four-year degrees. Tulsa is an elite agency even though our pay does not reflect it.
Plano, Tx tried to implement the 4-year college degree with it's police force.
College Degree Equals Big Bucks For Plano Police
Tiani Jones
Reporting
(CBS 11 News) PLANO Starting pay for a Plano police officer is $50,000, the highest in North Texas. But there's a catch... all new officers must have a 4-year college degree.
It's more than likely that the Plano police officer that pulls you over has a college education... in fact, it's now a requirement.
Plano Police Department Sergeant William D. Hiney says the requirements started 30 college hours and then moved to 60. As of January 1st a full baccalaureate is required.
The Plano Police Department says more than 50% of the people who live there have bachelor degrees. So they felt it only appropriate that their department reflect the community.
"We absolutely want to reflect the population that we have here and we're going to put our best effort forward to do that," Hiney said.
Sergeant Hiney is a part of the Plano Police Professional Standards Unit and says an education is going to pay off in Plano.
For example, when 6'6 Plano police officer Clark Miller steps into his cruiser he has the luxury of moving his seat back.
"We got the one man cage because of the problem I had with my back and related to my height, so the city did me well and let me look into a solution for it," Miller said.
Bosses that listen, top of the line equipment, and a starting salary of 50K are just a few of the departments perks.
"Our compensation is among the highest, our equipment is the best the city supports us tremendously," Hiney said.
Starting pay for Dallas officers is $41,000, in Denton its $45K, Fort Worth $43K and Plano $50K.
10 year veteran Miller, who has his college degree, wasn't so sure about the new requirements but admits his education has made him a better officer.However, they found they couldn't do it.
By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Last February, the Plano, Texas, Police Department took a bold step in its police recruiting efforts: At a time when departments across the nation are desperate for new officers, Plano began requiring its recruits to have four-year college degrees.
The move was aimed at making the city's 345-member police force more like the residents of Plano, a city of about 260,000 about 18 miles north of Dallas. Plano is in one of the nation's wealthiest counties and is home to the headquarters of JC Penney, Frito Lay and Electronic Data Systems. Plano officials cited studies indicating that officers with college degrees have fewer discipline problems than those without.
In August, however, as Plano strained to find enough recruits, the city eased its hiring requirements and began accepting those with two years of college or three years in the military. The latest requirements are stiffer than those from last year, when recruits were required to have at least the equivalent of a high school education. But the episode fueled an ongoing debate over whether police departments' desire to raise recruiting standards can be realized at a time when there are thousands of openings for cops nationwide.
Since 1963, when the Multnomah County, Ore., Sheriff's Department became one of the first police agencies to impose a four-year degree requirement on recruits, only a few other local departments have followed.
Less than 5% of local police departments with more than 100 officers require four-year degrees, says Louis Mayo, executive director of the Police Association for College Education.
Most departments give higher pay to recruits with four-year degrees, he says, but have avoided requiring recruits to have them for several reasons. Among them: concerns about recruiting enough minority officers in increasingly diverse urban areas, and fears that not enough college graduates would be attracted by police salaries. The median annual salary for patrol officers nationwide was about $45,200 in 2004, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Rookie cops usually make less.
"Everybody is gonna tell you it's difficult" to recruit only college graduates, says Plano police Sgt. Jason Christensen. That's true even in Plano, where the pay for new cops is relatively high, about $51,000.
Benefits of perspective
There are about 700,000 state and local police officers across the nation. Mayo estimates that 25% to 30% have four-year degrees. He says departments have been reluctant to adopt stricter recruiting standards despite evidence suggesting that better-educated cops perform better.
In an analysis of disciplinary cases against Florida cops from 1997 to 2002, the International Association of Chiefs of Police found that officers with only high school educations were the subjects of 75% of all disciplinary actions. Officers with four-year degrees accounted for 11% of such actions.
"An average patrol officer spends most of the time on dispute resolution," Mayo says. A degree "gives (officers) a broad perspective that makes them much more effective."
Los Angeles' approach to police recruiting and pay is typical of most big cities. The 9,000-officer department pays new cops with four-year degrees about $55,200, roughly $4,000 more than those who meet the basic requirements of a high school diploma or GED.
Officials say the incentive, along with programs such as one that gives bonuses to bilingual officers, shows a commitment to training. No one's proposing, however, that Los Angeles, which wants to hire 1,000 cops in the next year, require college degrees. Doing so would deplete the pool of candidates in an already tight market, says DeeDee Lopez of the officer mentoring program.
In Plano, where there are up to 15 police vacancies, Christensen acknowledges that concerns about finding enough recruits contributed to easing the prerequisite to two years of college or three years in the military. Plano also accepts recruits who have two years of police experience.
Christensen says the department wants to match officers' education level with that of the city's population. He estimates that 37% of Plano's residents have bachelor's degrees, compared with 32% of its cops.
Hiring goals add pressure
The need for cops has led many cities, including Los Angeles, to look well beyond their borders for recruits. As Lopez suggests, the pressure to meet hiring goals has discouraged some from making requirements too tough.
In a series of essays in The Police Chief magazine, 13 police officials and academics recently urged departments to raise education standards — and to not be deterred by concerns they make it too difficult to fill the ranks. "Police officers need the (college) degree, not only for what it brings to individual officers and their departments, but also for what the degree brings to policing," Robert Friedmann, a criminal justice professor at Georgia State University, wrote in an essay.
The police department in Lakewood, Colo., a Denver suburb, has required recruits to have college degrees since 1969. Chief Ron Burns says recruiting has been more difficult recently, but that the 247-officer department doesn't plan to ease its standards. He says the department's starting salary of $47,000 has helped, as has its reputation as a training ground for police chiefs. Sixty Lakewood officers have gone on to become chiefs, Burns says.
Burns concedes that such standards might not be practical for big departments with hundreds of vacancies a year. His current class of 25 recruits was chosen from about 140 applicants. Burns says a similar ratio of applicants to recruits is typical at larger departments.
"It would be difficult to maintain (the educational requirement) in a larger city," he says.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Because crime is up, a policeman think that he deserves a bigger pay raise?
Unbelievable.
More crime equals more work and more dangerous situations. You know that. Your dad was a police officer.
Maybe if the city of Tulsa administration would prioritize public safety we could get enough officers (through additional academies and retention of officers) to get the crime rate down.
"We must prioritize funding for police and firefighters" - Kathy Taylor
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Because crime is up, a policeman think that he deserves a bigger pay raise?
Unbelievable.
Why not? The higher crime rate doesn't necessarily imply it is the fault of police. Police, DA's, and other politicians don't cause crime, criminals do.
A raise is a way of showing appreciation and therefore improving morale. In a time of higher crime rates, I want to know the police force that is protecting me and my family feels appreciated.
So if crime goes down, the police should expect a pay cut?
I know it is probably a mistake to explain myself, but I need to try one more time. I am not against the police. They are brave public servants who deserve our respect.
I am merely questioning the tactics of the union.
Let me recap. They have opposed every mayor for the last sixteen years that I can go back. Republican or Democrat, doesn't matter.
They actively campaign against them, even endorsing their opponents in the primary and then switching to another in the general as a clear statement.
They hire outside consultants who brag about how they can discredit any public budget official, no matter what city they go to.
The union and their friends start conversations throughout the community even calling for impeachment because they don't get all that they want.
The Mayor had two choices. Go against all the budget information that she had that said that there was money for raises this year but not next, or call for an election that would give her time to continue to meet with the union to find a solution.
She also wants to hire more officers and giving a big pay raise makes that more difficult. The union showed to me by their actions that they only care about current officers.
She did exactly what I think she should have and has now found a solution that seems to satisfy everybody.
If this had been any other union, like the labor and trades union, I think most of you would agree with me.
New officers mean nothing if the rate of attrition for existing officers exceed that number. Better take care of these veteran officers who know the streets and know their beats. I think a force full of rookies with no one around to show them the ropes would be a disaster.
Censorship is Un
American
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
If this had been any other union, like the labor and trades union, I think most of you would agree with me.
Except the arbitrator didn't agree... and THAT should have been the final word.
I thought when something like this was submitted for arbitration, that the decision of the arbitrators would be final.
Why the change in law?
So with the news of the approval of the 8%+ raises......For whoever was asking about the salary levels, it's in the TW today. Also, I've been told by someone who should know that the majority of TPD would fall between the $65k - $85 range in salary.
After the 8% pay raises (which do not include the merit increases and, presumably, overtime):
Ofcr $42,470 - $59,760
Corp $53,098 - $66,295
Srgt $59,503 - $69,610
Cptn $74,540 - $80,623
Majr $84,858 - $91,782
Dep Chief $100,275 - $108,457
It also lists the salaries for OKC and BA if you're interested.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
So with the news of the approval of the 8%+ raises......For whoever was asking about the salary levels, it's in the TW today. Also, I've been told by someone who should know that the majority of TPD would fall between the $65k - $85 range in salary.
After the 8% pay raises (which do not include the merit increases and, presumably, overtime):
Ofcr $42,470 - $59,760
Corp $53,098 - $66,295
Srgt $59,503 - $69,610
Cptn $74,540 - $80,623
Majr $84,858 - $91,782
Dep Chief $100,275 - $108,457
It also lists the salaries for OKC and BA if you're interested.
Let's not forget subsudized daily commutes to and from work, longevity pay, uniform and other allowances, an incredible package of benefits, especially retirement benefits -- not to mention the standard 'overtime' abuses and the ability to use city property at private security jobs.
Maybe the police will stop complaining for a while.
[8D]
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
So with the news of the approval of the 8%+ raises......For whoever was asking about the salary levels, it's in the TW today. Also, I've been told by someone who should know that the majority of TPD would fall between the $65k - $85 range in salary.
After the 8% pay raises (which do not include the merit increases and, presumably, overtime):
Ofcr $42,470 - $59,760
Corp $53,098 - $66,295
Srgt $59,503 - $69,610
Cptn $74,540 - $80,623
Majr $84,858 - $91,782
Dep Chief $100,275 - $108,457
It also lists the salaries for OKC and BA if you're interested.
Let's not forget subsudized daily commutes to and from work, longevity pay, uniform and other allowances, an incredible package of benefits, especially retirement benefits -- not to mention the standard 'overtime' abuses and the ability to use city property at private security jobs.
And we get to risk our lives every day for the citizens of Tulsa![:D]
quote:
And we get to risk our lives every day for the citizens of Tulsa![:D]
I always hear this, but I would say that is a pretty low risk. Fortunately, we don't have many officers killed in the line of duty.
Fact: It's been 10 years since a Tulsa cop was killed in the line of duty (corrected).
Six cops have died in the last 25 years. Only two were by murder. The other four were from accidents.
http://www.tpdmemorial.com/html/those_we_lost.html
If you're a steelworker, garbage collector, trucker, farmer (my former profession), roofer or taxi driver, you have a much higher chance of being killed on the job.
http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/careerbytes/CBArticle.aspx?articleID=421&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=16bf0e545ab84d679d3312b81da9a60c-212769845-TU-4
Let's not take this conversation to attacking or defending the job or the degree of danger of the police.
The thread was about pay and the process for setting the pay grades.
I am glad that the Mayor was able to find a resolution to this issue and the police spokespersons were quoted as being happy with the settlement.
I knew she would find a way.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Fact: It's been 10 years since a Tulsa cop was killed in the line of duty (corrected).
Six cops have died in the last 25 years. Only two were by murder. The other four were from accidents.
http://www.tpdmemorial.com/html/those_we_lost.html
If you're a steelworker, garbage collector, trucker, farmer (my former profession), roofer or taxi driver, you have a much higher chance of being killed on the job.
http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/careerbytes/CBArticle.aspx?articleID=421&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=16bf0e545ab84d679d3312b81da9a60c-212769845-TU-4
Thank God, there hasn't been a line of duty death. I don't think it has been from lack of trying on the criminals part. Our training and protection is better than it has ever been.
Actually, One officer did get shot at the Lakewood incident but his vest protected him.
"There by the grace of God go I."
I am glad the mayor decided to believe the independent arbitrator and give the FOP the raise it deserved. Now with the FOP already signing next years contract it will free up the mayor to focus on the other city employees and get them closer to market value.
Oh and Rwan,
When you get scared and call 911 we'll be there for you.
I'm glad you guys got the raise. It doesn't solve the crime problem in itself, but as I've mentioned countless times on other threads, if we really want better public safety, we have to be willing, as citizens, to pay for it.
Conan is right but it goes further than that. It is how much we are willing to pay and what priority we place on it compared to other needs and wants of our community.
Let me give another example.
Everybody wants the cleanest and safest drinking water possible. But we also don't want our monthly utility bills to be so high that we can't afford to live in that community.
The government has a responsibility to make sure it is safe and that it meets agreed upon standards. The citizens decide how much of a priority new plants and additional safeguards are.
Our water is completely safe in Tulsa.
It is handled by professionals with degrees who work very hard at their jobs to protect us. Yet some citizens feel a need to buy a home water filter or bottled water. They want more than just what is expected and they are willing to pay extra, sometimes much, much more for that.
We have the same formula with police. It would be great if we had a policemen on every corner or every driveway, but most would not be willing to pay for that level.
We expect basic levels of protection and any deviation is unacceptable, yet many people also install an alarm, get a dog, buy a gun or learn self-defense.
The trick is to have honest dialogue between citizens and public officials. The mistake is to use questionable tactics and emotional ploys for self-gain.
RM I agree with what you have said.... However, for anyone that is still having flashbacks of LaFortuna and Company, it is sometimes very difficult to imagine your Government being anything other than more of the same...
Trust is a two way street.. It will take time for the Citizens of Tulsa to learn to trust Mayor Taylor...
The most recent example I can supply you with is the following:
"Prior to the election of Mayor Taylor I posed several specific questions to her..One of which was... When you deliver your State of the City Speech.. will this be delivered to the Tulsa Metro Chamber or the Citizens of Tulsa..?"
Her response:"When I give a State of the City Speech it would be given at a location that is accessible to the entire City"
The results of this answer were demonstrated by her first State of the City Speech.. Given at the Doubletree at Warren Place.. To... the Tulsa Metro Chamber of Commerce..
I consider myself a fair person... I did not make a big stink out of this.. But the Police issue was something entirely different...
We must have a competent Police Force.. A Larger Police Force.. Or all the Lipstick in China will not sell this City....!
P.S. Congrats to the Police on their raise....
rwarn: come to think of it last time I dialed 911 they did send a garbage collector...[8D]
RM-
Let me expand on this a little.
People expect things of their government and seem to forget that they are responsible for funding that government. Money doesn't appear out of thin air to run our cities, counties, states, and country.
"I want safer streets, I don't want to pay any more taxes."
"I want better schools for my kids, but I'm being pounded on property taxes as it is."
"I want safe water, but those crooks at the city are already gouging my eyes out for water, sewer, and trash."
The reality is, when we want more or better services, we have to realize there is a sacrifice. We don't necessarily need to increase revenue, so much as we need to change the priorities on how our revenue is spent. I wasn't against the BOK Center for the sake of being against it, I felt like the timing wasn't right and our other priorities have not been suffieciently met.
Our teachers still recieve sub-par pay compared to other cities, our DA's office says it is under-staffed, under-funded, and over-worked. We have over 1500 convicted criminals in DOC custody who are still in county jails around the state because DOC does not have enough cells for them all. Our police force says they are under-staffed and under-paid to handle the rise in crime.
Why are we prioritizing so much funding for a behemoth center to ostensibly attract all these concerts, conventions, and pro sports teams when Tulsa still does not have the demographics nor types of activities and entertainment that are requisite to compete with popular convention spots like Vegas, Atlantic City, Orlando, etc.?
Does the public really need to provide the majority of funding for a $1bln river project (there is no way this will be completed for less)? Despite what the developers are telling us, it won't make one bit of difference in whether or not my daughter's decide to live here after college or somewhere else.
Do we really need someone on the city payroll as an ED director? If the Chamber is doing such a poor job of attracting new business, then business owners need to stop paying their dues, and let it shrivel up or get them working again.
The primary things in my opinion that make a city liveable are: a low crime rate, a great street and utility infrastructure, great public education, a positive business climate, attractive housing with good code enforcement, a low cost of living, and finally great recreational outlets.
I believe the pay raise for the police is a token of good faith from the city in showing we want to do something about the crime rate and hopefully will help make this an attractive career choice for college grads, and will help retain our veterans through retirement.
Before we appropriate another penny of public funding for another "signature" piece of public/private archetecture, let's get another 100 officers out in the field, let's provide money and incentives for better public education, let's keep up with our streets, etc. etc.
IOW- I don't mind paying my fair share of the funding it takes to make a city run, be attractive, and liveable, I just don't want to see us overlook the real priorities in our haste to build monoliths that really don't make one bit of difference as to why people would or wouldn't make Tulsa their home.
Great Post Conan...
If I can just throw a little kerosene on the fire....
quote"Do we really need someone on the city payroll as an ED director? If the Chamber is doing such a poor job of attracting new business, then business owners need to stop paying their dues, and let it shrivel up or get them working again."end quote.
The new ED Director is paid a large amount.. But the Metro Chamber is paid even more..
The Metro Chamber has been the source of many problems... yet there seems to be a fear of any Politician saying anything negative..
Someone needs to drop them like a lead pipe..
Rico,
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't the Chamber funded entirely by private funds in the form of dues and contributions from area business? I was also thinking DTU is funded in a like manner by downtown property owners and tennants.
If, in fact, this is entirely how they are funded, then if contributions started to slow, we'd find out if they are just incompetent or entirely irrelevant. IOW- if they wanted to keep their cushy ivory tower jobs, as contributions fall off, they would need to actually make things happen, or face extinction.
Great points, Conan.
I agree that the pay raise is a show of good faith by all parties. I also believe the police need the support of the community to do their job effectively.
This conversation needs more than this thread. It is the fundamental role of government to do what the public wants it to do.
Let's continue the discussion on another thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Rico,
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't the Chamber funded entirely by private funds in the form of dues and contributions from area business? I was also thinking DTU is funded in a like manner by downtown property owners and tennants.
If, in fact, this is entirely how they are funded, then if contributions started to slow, we'd find out if they are just incompetent or entirely irrelevant. IOW- if they wanted to keep their cushy ivory tower jobs, as contributions fall off, they would need to actually make things happen, or face extinction.
You are half right... To the best of my knowledge DTU is funded privately.
On the other hand the Metro Chamber is publicly funded through the Hotel and Motel Tax... To the tune of approximately $2 Million or more a year...
True they also have monies that come from "Dues and Contributions"..
I am always surprised that this is not common knowledge among taxpayers...
You'd think with 2 mil in annual taxpayer subsidies we wouldn't have to pay 30 bucks to see da Mare give the state of the city speech?