The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Great read from Jenks Middle School Principal Rob Miller.
http://viewfromtheedge.net/?p=2534

Basically State School Superintendent Dr. Barresi has purposely excluded Jenks and Owasso schools from field tests for the new state testing vendor because they were vocal in opposing the new common core standards, and she wanted to avoid possible negative press from the parents in those schools (because we can be quite loud).

This obviously didn't go unnoticed.

On another note. . .
This year was the final straw for my wife and I.  It was a difficult decision 5 years ago to choose public school over private options, and now that my daughter is going into 5th grade next year, this semester will be the last time she sets foot in a public school. 

She is a brilliant little girl with excellent math and communication skills.  Mostly because my wife, who is a licensed educator, taught her how to read, write, add, subtract, multiply, and divide long before the school presented her with that curriculum.  This year she began to bring home the Common Core worksheets which, in themselves, are a marvel of stupidity.  Not only are the processes they are learning to do simple math confusing, but many of the worksheets contain mistakes in syntax and blatant mathematical errors.  We confronted her teachers, only to learn that they have very little grasp, or ability to explain the system beyond what the answer keys to the worksheets tell them.  If my daughter simply answers a question using common math, or does the work for larger numbers using mathematical equations that have proven accurate and acceptable for thousands of years, she is penalized.

Common core requires her to draw a series of pictures, fact families, cube sticks and number bonds to arrive at an answer.  It frustrates her, and makes us angry.  Math homework that would take her 10 minutes now requires an 8yo girl 30mins to an hour to complete and lots of frustration along the way.  The kids are not the only victims.  The teachers hate it, because it represents another layer of unnecessary certification that in no way benefits the children.

So, last week we made the rather painful and expensive decision to remove our children from the public school system this year.  The cogs that the public school system seems determined to turn out with the new Common Core standards don't fit any machines, and our kids are worth more than that. The good news is that several of her classmates will also be transitioning out of the public system and we are hopeful that she gets some familiar faces in her new school.

I have not followed the common core issue closely since my kids are past it.  From what I hear of it though, I'm glad this happened after my girls were already out of school.  We had them in Montessori until the older one was in 5th and the younger one in 2nd.  They transitioned to Jenks quite well and both got exceptional grades and had great instructors there.  Jenks prepared both well for college.  

I'm sorry to hear JPS was apparently forced down this road.  I ignored most of the rage against Barresi as it seemed to come from Tim Gilpin initially and I felt it was more sour grapes than anything.  It would appear I was wrong.  

You gotta do what is best for your children.

We were lucky to get our kids into the TPS magnet schools. They are the very best around here. Better than any private school in the Tulsa area.

5th Grade is a pretty important year. Good luck.

I started trying to get in with the schools back when the kids were small - provide tutoring, etc. in some of the STEM topics.  I naively thought that since Tulsa Junior College would hire me as a part time instructor, that should be good reference to help some junior and high school kids with some math and physics....  

Not good enough.  Since I didn't have the union card (teacher's certificate) the state - Oklahoma state - would not allow it.  Several times over a couple of decades.

Now I understand the madness behind the method - the more recent decades have shown the real agenda.  Get lotteries to pay some of the school bill, so hundreds of millions can be freed up for their pork projects.  And when push comes to shove, just cut a couple hundred million directly.  The people in the state won't protest it...they have been conditioned.  And when it is explained to them, and the people involved, and the adverse impact it has had, I can't even count the number of times I have heard this quote;

"w e l l ,  a h h   ( I )   d o n ' t   k n o w   a b o u t   t h a t ,  . . . . .  h e  (or she)  s e e m s   l i k e   a   p u r t y   g o o d   o l e '   b o y   t a   m e . . . . .


The spacing indicates the "Okie slow" way of   t a w k i n ' . . . . .  and one of the more recent people I have had this discussion with - You know who you are!!  (We talked about it...)

In fairness, while I work hard to talk faster and use a more 'midwestern' accent, but I have my lapses and talk exactly like that....

(http://i.imgur.com/ku0YLGx.jpg)

Quote from: Gaspar on March 13, 2014, 03:06:56 PM
Not only are the processes they are learning to do simple math confusing, but many of the worksheets contain mistakes in syntax and blatant mathematical errors.  We confronted her teachers, only to learn that they have very little grasp, or ability to explain the system beyond what the answer keys to the worksheets tell them.  If my daughter simply answers a question using common math, or does the work for larger numbers using mathematical equations that have proven accurate and acceptable for thousands of years, she is penalized.

Common core requires her to draw a series of pictures, fact families, cube sticks and number bonds to arrive at an answer.  It frustrates her, and makes us angry.  Math homework that would take her 10 minutes now requires an 8yo girl 30mins to an hour to complete and lots of frustration along the way. 

This could be said for Math class for me 25-30 years ago. Math classes have never been about the answer, they have been about the method.

OMG!!  Your kid got counted off for not following instructions.  Oh lawd. Too bad the teachers don't get it.  Sounds like they could have used some common core in school.  You know..  So they could grasp things besides just memorizing things.

Quote from: Gaspar on March 13, 2014, 03:06:56 PM
Great read from Jenks Middle School Principal Rob Miller.
http://viewfromtheedge.net/?p=2534

Basically State School Superintendent Dr. Barresi has purposely excluded Jenks and Owasso schools from field tests for the new state testing vendor because they were vocal in opposing the new common core standards, and she wanted to avoid possible negative press from the parents in those schools (because we can be quite loud).

This obviously didn't go unnoticed.

On another note. . .
This year was the final straw for my wife and I.  It was a difficult decision 5 years ago to choose public school over private options, and now that my daughter is going into 5th grade next year, this semester will be the last time she sets foot in a public school. 

She is a brilliant little girl with excellent math and communication skills.  Mostly because my wife, who is a licensed educator, taught her how to read, write, add, subtract, multiply, and divide long before the school presented her with that curriculum.  This year she began to bring home the Common Core worksheets which, in themselves, are a marvel of stupidity.  Not only are the processes they are learning to do simple math confusing, but many of the worksheets contain mistakes in syntax and blatant mathematical errors.  We confronted her teachers, only to learn that they have very little grasp, or ability to explain the system beyond what the answer keys to the worksheets tell them.  If my daughter simply answers a question using common math, or does the work for larger numbers using mathematical equations that have proven accurate and acceptable for thousands of years, she is penalized.

Common core requires her to draw a series of pictures, fact families, cube sticks and number bonds to arrive at an answer.  It frustrates her, and makes us angry.  Math homework that would take her 10 minutes now requires an 8yo girl 30mins to an hour to complete and lots of frustration along the way.  The kids are not the only victims.  The teachers hate it, because it represents another layer of unnecessary certification that in no way benefits the children.

So, last week we made the rather painful and expensive decision to remove our children from the public school system this year.  The cogs that the public school system seems determined to turn out with the new Common Core standards don't fit any machines, and our kids are worth more than that. The good news is that several of her classmates will also be transitioning out of the public system and we are hopeful that she gets some familiar faces in her new school.

Gasp, my kids are a bit older than yours so maybe I am not seeing it, but is Barresi mandating curriculum via Common Core? I haven't seen that. I'm not all defending her, she's a complete train wreck and I know Jenks is very upset over taking more and more school time and resources for endless and often pointless testing but what you are describing sounds more like Every Day Math, which is the math curriculum that Jenks uses.

Not everyone loves it, but it does seem effective. Jenks by design is pushing higher and higher math into younger grades and they do it with Everyday Math. My kids went through it and have done well. My daughter is a senior and she took AP Calculus BC last year as a junior and this year is taking Calculus III and Differential Equations, in high school. Almost no school anywhere offers that.

Rob Miller, who's blog you linked, is my son's principal and I think he does a great job. He is very focused on getting kids into higher and higher math. My son is in 7th grade and is already taking Geometry, his track will have him take AP Calc as a Sophomore and take Linear Algebra as a senior. Jenks is having to develop a math class beyond Linear Algebra because there is a group of students my son's age a year ahead of him, kids that will take AP Calc as Freshmen.

I will criticize Jenks schools for a number of issues, but math curriculum is not one of them. Show me a private school that has 3 years of math beyond AP Calc BC. A ton of them don't even offer that, they only offer AP Calc AB.

 I wonder if I could have graduated in todays High Schools.  Do they have different tracks for people with an artistic bent?  I was terrible at math and computers and it was hell just getting through the basics in those subjects.  It would be like forcing every kid to paint like Michelangelo before they are allowed to graduate and if they couldn't pass art tests they would be labeled "slow" and given remedial courses, forced to take summer school, held back, start feeling bad about themselves as adults wondered "what was wrong with this child" and told the child they were not trying hard enough, etc. etc.  

I think we are missing out on a huge economic opportunity when we say that "this math standard is a must" and if your not good at it but happen to be good at art, your still a failure.  

Art is everywhere and the opportunity to make good money at it is everywhere and we ignore that.

Just about every package was designed by an artist.  That was a job that someone got paid to do.  The pictures hanging on your wall are only the beginning. The furniture in your house was likely designed by an artist. The fabric on your sofa or chair, perhaps even the one your sitting on now. The lamp that's sitting on the furniture, the book cover designs of the books on your shelves, magazines, advertisements, the clock on your desk, the light fixtures in your home, your cars design from the taillights to the steering wheel, the clothes your wearing, your shoes, the glasses on  your face, etc. etc. etc.  Art and the opportunity to make money at it are eeeeeverywhere.

There are so many jobs to be had and so much money to be made by being an artist.  And many of us could no more do trig than you could paint the Sistine Chapel.

Peoples brains are wired differently. I hate it when I see kids with so much artistic talent, beaten down and not appreciated by the school systems and many end up dropping out because their talents simply aren't appreciated while those with math skills are the be all end all.  I have done art projects that have earned me close to half a million dollars a pop.  And I am a mediocre artist. One of the artists that used to be in Tulsa likely made millions per year and his company was the one that sent me to London just a while back to do the project there.

If every other school district in the country is focusing on churning out kids that can do math, I think that might present itself as an opportunity to the school or city that focused on skilled artists instead.  They would be the ones in high demand and able to write their own tickets, because they would be rarer than everyone else following the math herd.

Quote from: TheArtist on March 14, 2014, 12:37:47 PM
I wonder if I could have graduated in todays High Schools.  Do they have different tracks for people with an artistic bent?  I was terrible at math and computers and it was hell just getting through the basics in those subjects.  It would be like forcing every kid to paint like Michelangelo before they are allowed to graduate and if they couldn't pass art tests they would be labeled "slow" and given remedial courses, forced to take summer school, held back, start feeling bad about themselves as adults wondered "what was wrong with this child" and told the child they were not trying hard enough, etc. etc.  

I think we are missing out on a huge economic opportunity when we say that "this math standard is a must" and if your not good at it but happen to be good at art, your still a failure.  

Art is everywhere and the opportunity to make good money at it is everywhere and we ignore that.

Just about every package was designed by an artist.  That was a job that someone got paid to do.  The pictures hanging on your wall are only the beginning. The furniture in your house was likely designed by an artist. The fabric on your sofa or chair, perhaps even the one your sitting on now. The lamp that's sitting on the furniture, the book cover designs of the books on your shelves, magazines, advertisements, the clock on your desk, the light fixtures in your home, your cars design from the taillights to the steering wheel, the clothes your wearing, your shoes, the glasses on  your face, etc. etc. etc.  Art and the opportunity to make money at it are eeeeeverywhere.

There are so many jobs to be had and so much money to be made by being an artist.  And many of us could no more do trig than you could paint the Sistine Chapel.

Peoples brains are wired differently. I hate it when I see kids with so much artistic talent, beaten down and not appreciated by the school systems and many end up dropping out because their talents simply aren't appreciated while those with math skills are the be all end all.  I have done art projects that have earned me close to half a million dollars a pop.  And I am a mediocre artist. One of the artists that used to be in Tulsa likely made millions per year and his company was the one that sent me to London just a while back to do the project there.

If every other school district in the country is focusing on churning out kids that can do math, I think that might present itself as an opportunity to the school or city that focused on skilled artists instead.  They would be the ones in high demand and able to write their own tickets, because they would be rarer than everyone else following the math herd.

I don't believe that at all. Why does being a great artist mean you can't do math. That makes no sense. Not everyone can do theoretical math or a be a physicist but everyone can do advanced math to a certain level at least. Even if you don't use it later in life it teaches your brain valuable analytical and decision making skills.

I think we just do a poor job in this country of setting expectations and teaching. I expect that at some point when math wasn't easy for you, you were told you weren't good at math so you gave up and it was then hard forever. Happens to girls all the time and it's awful. Tell me, the part of the brain that is important to math is spatial ability. Is spatial ability important to art? The same part of the brain that makes you good at art should make you good at math.

When my daughter was five or six she was tested for being gifted. The results said that she was very gifted in the language arts but not so much in spatial ability (math). So we lied to her and told her that her gift was in math. She was gifted enough in language arts that that was always going to happen for her, but in telling her it was math she dived into and today is very gifted in math, her math SAT scores were actually higher than her verbal.

Jenks doesn't force the track my kids are on, it's certainly not for everyone, but they do accelerate. Most of the world teaches higher math much younger than we do. The national standard is that kids take Algebra I in 9th grade, Geometry in 10th and Algebra II in 11th grade. That's simply a joke. Jenks moves that up a year for everyone. Lots of schools do this. Jenks just then picks out kids that do well and moves them even faster. There are I think about 850 7th grade students at Jenks Middle School. Of those I think there are only 5 or 6 in Algebra II, maybe 20 in Geometry with my son. I don't know how many are in Algebra I, but it's going to be a lot, probably over 100, but far from all the kids.

Quote from: swake on March 14, 2014, 01:23:27 PM
Not everyone can do theoretical math or a be a physicist but everyone can do advanced math to a certain level at least. Even if you don't use it later in life it teaches your brain valuable analytical and decision making skills.

I agree whole heartedly.  I certainly do NOT remember all the Geometry proofs I did in High School but the thought process has served me well. Before parametric solid modeling CAD (we use Solid Edge at work. Similar to Solid Works but by a different company), I used Trig and a HP Calculator (I really like RPN and can barely use a TI calculator.) on a regular basis. I still do but the software does the tedious part.

Art classes were part of the curriculum through 8th grade where I grew up.  I never did all that well but it was kind of fun.  The one project I remember is making a paper mache action human figure.  We didn't have to get down to finger details but it had to stand on a small wood base without falling over.  I made a running person.  That was the only "A" I remember ever getting in art.  Beyond that, I cannot draw a straight line without a drafting triangle. I was destined to be an engineer from day one.  (Although being an engineer and artist are not mutually exclusive.  Industrial designer/engineer is a good example of that.)

Quote from: TheArtist on March 14, 2014, 12:37:47 PM
I wonder if I could have graduated in todays High Schools.  Do they have different tracks for people with an artistic bent?  I was terrible at math and computers and it was hell just getting through the basics in those subjects.  It would be like forcing every kid to paint like Michelangelo before they are allowed to graduate and if they couldn't pass art tests they would be labeled "slow" and given remedial courses, forced to take summer school, held back, start feeling bad about themselves as adults wondered "what was wrong with this child" and told the child they were not trying hard enough, etc. etc.  

I think we are missing out on a huge economic opportunity when we say that "this math standard is a must" and if your not good at it but happen to be good at art, your still a failure.  

Art is everywhere and the opportunity to make good money at it is everywhere and we ignore that.

Just about every package was designed by an artist.  That was a job that someone got paid to do.  The pictures hanging on your wall are only the beginning. The furniture in your house was likely designed by an artist. The fabric on your sofa or chair, perhaps even the one your sitting on now. The lamp that's sitting on the furniture, the book cover designs of the books on your shelves, magazines, advertisements, the clock on your desk, the light fixtures in your home, your cars design from the taillights to the steering wheel, the clothes your wearing, your shoes, the glasses on  your face, etc. etc. etc.  Art and the opportunity to make money at it are eeeeeverywhere.

There are so many jobs to be had and so much money to be made by being an artist.  And many of us could no more do trig than you could paint the Sistine Chapel.

Peoples brains are wired differently. I hate it when I see kids with so much artistic talent, beaten down and not appreciated by the school systems and many end up dropping out because their talents simply aren't appreciated while those with math skills are the be all end all.  I have done art projects that have earned me close to half a million dollars a pop.  And I am a mediocre artist. One of the artists that used to be in Tulsa likely made millions per year and his company was the one that sent me to London just a while back to do the project there.

If every other school district in the country is focusing on churning out kids that can do math, I think that might present itself as an opportunity to the school or city that focused on skilled artists instead.  They would be the ones in high demand and able to write their own tickets, because they would be rarer than everyone else following the math herd.

Some are lucky and have it both ways....good friend for decades was excellent engineer, and an amazing artist!  He has recently started painting (photo realistic acrylic western art - as good or better than Charles Russell and/or Frederick Remington) full time to make a living.  Still in "starving artist" mode for now.... luckily he had a job that had a real pension.  Darn those pesky companies with pensions that still care about their employees!  They give the rest of them such a 'bad name'....

Q&A: A Crash Course On Common Core

http://kwgs.com/post/qa-crash-course-common-core (http://kwgs.com/post/qa-crash-course-common-core)

QuoteConfused about the Common Core State Standards? Join the club. That's not to say the new benchmarks in reading and math are good or bad, working smoothly or kicking up sparks as the wheels come off. It is simply an acknowledgement that, when the vast majority of U.S. states adopt a single set of educational standards all at roughly the same time, a little confusion is inevitable.

Below is a handy FAQ about Common Core. We'll continue answering your questions in the coming months. You can post them in the comments section, or on Twitter and Facebook using #commonq.

What are the Common Core State Standards?

With the Core, it's best to begin at the beginning. They are benchmarks in English language arts and math that clarify the skills each child should have at each grade level. From the Common Core's own website: "The standards were created to ensure that all students graduate from high school with the skills and knowledge necessary to succeed in college, career, and life, regardless of where they live." If you have a few hours you're looking to fill, you can tuck into the standards one by one.

The standards have been adopted in 45 states and the District of Columbia. One good way to understand what they are is to know what they're replacing. States control their learning standards, and Common Core doesn't change that. But before the Core, state standards varied widely across the country and, in many cases, were weak and outdated. The Core standards are widely considered an upgrade.

The other problem the standards are meant to address is student mobility. Kids move around a lot. The 2000 census found that 18 percent of kids had moved in the last year. And, when they moved from school to school or state to state, many found themselves struggling to cope with very different standards.

Opponents of the Common Core argue that the standards tell teachers what texts they should teach. Do they?

Not really. The only required reading from Common Core comes in the 11th and 12th grades, when kids will be expected to read and understand foundational documents of historical and literary significance: the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and Lincoln's second inaugural address.

Much of the confusion comes from the Core's Appendix B. It includes dozens of titles that the Core's writers consider "text exemplars" — in other words, suggestions for teachers looking for age-appropriate reading material that will help their students reach Core benchmarks. They include everything from Green Eggs and Ham to Shakespeare's Sonnet 73. But these texts are recommended, not required. The standards also call for a balance of informational texts and literature but, again, do not require specific books or reading materials.

Will the Core come with new standardized tests?

Yes. The states that have adopted the Core have divided into two consortia, and each will soon field-test new, Common-Core-aligned assessments. Beginning next week, some 4 million students (in grades three to 11) will take these new tests in math and language arts for the first time. This early testing will help test makers figure out what test items truly gauge "proficiency" (or grade-level skills) and what the cutoff scores should be. These tests are expected to be tougher for many of the children who take them. New York, an early adopter of the Core, has already administered Core-aligned tests and seen significant drops in student scores.

How do teachers unions feel about the Common Core?

That's tricky. Both the National Education Association and American Federation of Teachers support the standards, but their rank-and-file are uncomfortable and increasingly unhappy with the standards' implementation. Seven out of 10 teachers say the transition to a curriculum tied to Common Core isn't working. Two-thirds of teachers say they were not asked for input on how to develop the implementation plan. Teachers also say they need time to make sure they understand the standards and are able to talk to parents about them. In the meantime, the unions are calling for a delay not in implementation of the new standards but in holding teachers accountable for test results. In California, Gov. Jerry Brown has already said teachers there won't be judged this year on student performance as the state transitions from old standards to new.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 13, 2014, 04:25:08 PM


We were lucky to get our kids into the TPS magnet schools. They are the very best around here. Better than any private school in the Tulsa area.

cough

As a pseudo-surrogate parent to my 4 nieces and 1 nephew, I am completely disappointed in common core and the public school system. Granted, I live in Tulsa and they attend Edmond Public Schools, but if this is what schools are churning out these days, we're doing nothing but setting them up for failure.

The problem I have with common core and how it's being applied is that it doesn't build a firm foundation. It's too caught up in "solving" a question using a variety of methods and in the end, not one of them is truly retained/learned/mastered. Until they have a grasp of basics, what purpose does it serve to add additional steps? They no longer "carry over" when multiplying, they group them into easier sets. They no longer "borrow" numbers when subtracting either. Their teachers don't even like to use those terms anymore for goodness sake. I do take the time to communicate with their teachers and occasionally have to "learn the new way" myself because they can get penalized for doing it the "old way," but again, unless the basics are mastered there's little use in Susie being able to solve a problem 3 different ways if she can barely remember only one of them.

What's scary for me, is the knowledge that 4 of the 5 all have straight A's but still have issues converting fractions to decimals and vice versa. It's terrifying when I proofread an AP English paper to see the words "like" and "you know" used, neither of which was in an acceptable form, such as a simile or part of a quote. It's very telling when I sit down with the 8th grade English teacher and she informs me that her entire class failed the test on pronouns so I shouldn't worry about my niece as they are re-taking the test as a class.

Common core in theory is acceptable, in application it's a veritable nightmare, for the teachers, students, and parents.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjQk77lCMAAwd4H.jpg:large)

Quote from: Gaspar on March 21, 2014, 10:42:52 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjQk77lCMAAwd4H.jpg:large)

I know it's a cartoon, but it hits way too close to home!!  That is virtually verbatim the letter I would have written to Jack.  The poor kid ain't got a chance!

The grandkids are mostly through all this nonsense now, but when we have occasion to talk, the "Common (Core)" refrain I hear from them is "I'm no good at math..."  When I dig deeper, it turns out each of them gets hung up on fractions.  Simple stuff.  And then we have short tutorials - and yeah, I have to repeat it occasionally dur to lack of immersion in the subject - and they have all been stunned at how straightforward it is when you learn correct methods. 

I see on the Common Core web site that one of their "goals" is to have kids ready for algebra by 8th grade!  Geez, what a massive "FAIL" that is!!  Kids should be starting simple algebra concepts NO later than 5th grade!!  My elementary - in a different state - started us on algebra at end of 4th and continued through 5th - and it took 6th, 7th, and into 8th grade here to "catch up" to where I had been.  And not just algebra!

We are underestimating kids and under-challenging them in the correct topics!  Reading.  Writing.  Arithmetic.   NOT video game/computer learning nonsense until much later in the process!

Quote from: Kallima on March 21, 2014, 05:55:16 AM
It's too caught up in "solving" a question using a variety of methods and in the end, not one of them is truly retained/learned/mastered. Until they have a grasp of basics, what purpose does it serve to add additional steps? They no longer "carry over" when multiplying, they group them into easier sets. They no longer "borrow" numbers when subtracting either.

Sounds to me like common core teaches kids how to rearrange a problem into a simpler formulation. I'm not quite sure why that's a bad thing, but that may be because I haven't written out a math problem on paper in 15 years.

H, algebra was generally not taught until 9th (8th for AP kids) grade when I was in school. And that was in what was considered a pretty good school (and district). The standard progression was Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and then Precal as a senior. AP kids got calculus as seniors instead. Not being a teacher, I have no idea whether that's the best way of doing things, only that it has been the standard for a very long time.

Quote from: nathanm on March 21, 2014, 12:57:53 PM
Sounds to me like common core teaches kids how to rearrange a problem into a simpler formulation. I'm not quite sure why that's a bad thing, but that may be because I haven't written out a math problem on paper in 15 years.

H, algebra was generally not taught until 9th (8th for AP kids) grade when I was in school. And that was in what was considered a pretty good school (and district). The standard progression was Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and then Precal as a senior. AP kids got calculus as seniors instead. Not being a teacher, I have no idea whether that's the best way of doing things, only that it has been the standard for a very long time.

Standard starting time in TPS was 8th grade.  I took it in 7th - I guess a kind of precursor to AP...??  Whitney Junior High.  Mrs. Cuffel (sp?), Instructor.  She had the most god-awful attitude for the first 3 weeks or so...pissed off every 7th grader in the class - it was only 7th graders in that class - 'till the parents met with Principal.  I heard about that from my parents...he told her, this is what she had been wanting her entire career - a class full of kids who weren't there because they had to be, but because they wanted to be!  Literally, the very next day, she was an absolutely different, transformed person!  Turned out to be one of the best teachers I ever had....and one of the few whose name I can remember.  

Along with Rena Gene Fleming - superb Spanish teacher!


Geometry in 8th, then Alg II.  Trig in 10th.  Then linear alg in 11th.  Calc in 12.  Had to re-learn calc in college - didn't "stick" in high school - I wasn't that interested at the time.

Quote from: Gaspar on March 21, 2014, 10:42:52 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjQk77lCMAAwd4H.jpg:large)

I believe the graph should start his number line from 316 instead of 121.  Then I think they would jump from 316 + 4 to 320 and then add 30 to get 350 another 50 to get 400.  Then add 20 and then 7.

At least I thought that was how it was supposed to work.

This is all quite interesting.  I was prepared to say something about how someone in 5th grade at about age 10 or 11 may not be ready for abstract reasoning (remembering my college developmental psychology classes) and children develop at different speeds such that some may be left behind if they are not ready and begin a negative spiral.  And then put that with my own first experience of being presented with an "X" instead of a number and the tears it brought for I couldn't understand what the heck they were talking about "I remember crying, "How can it be number, its an X!?"".  Then ran across this article....http://hepg.org/hel/article/533  and I can see where they are going with this.  They start very general in ways that young kids can understand so that they are familiar with the concepts and not suddenly presented with something completely new all at once.  But one can also see how this (understanding things/concepts from a different general perspective/way) might go too far and you leave out how to "do math" the old fashioned way that is also important to know.

My brain was always much better at reasoning/"understanding" than remembering lists of rules.  I was taught math as a series of rules you had to memorize, without being taught any understanding, aka, what it meant.  My brain doesn't remember "lists" and rules, but I can figure things out (if confronted with a math problem I practically reinvent the a way to find it out as if I am some ancient Greek mathematician) lol.  I remember at an early age being able to read up to a high school and higher level (and being told by my teacher to not go any further with the reading program, that I was going too far ahead), but not being able to recite my alphabet and getting in trouble for that (why one supposedly HAD to memorize that horribly long list of letters I don't know lol).  Math was like that for me as well.  It was taught as a series of rules "do this, then do that, in this situation, do this, then that and that.  It was rule, upon rule upon rule, and the further along you got the longer the memorized list of rules became (oh and speaking of lists to memorize, egads, memorizing the multiplications tables was a nightmare for me lol).  

One other example.  First computer class I took in college, way back when.  First part of the semester was "concepts" and history etc. from a book, second half was sitting in front of the computer and doing stuff.  I breezed through the first half while others struggled.  Everyone else in the class was complaining and throwing a fuss about how hard it was while I thought it was easy breezy. One day after the rest were complaining that they would likely fail the next test the professor said he would grade on a curve.  I made a 98 on the test, the rest of the class was about to stone me, then the professor said he would drop my grade from the curve and let the next best score "a 78" start the curve.  I remember in particular this one blonde girl who I thought must have been so stupid that I couldn't imagine how she even functioned in the world seeing her grades and her struggle. 

Then came the second part of the semester, sitting behind the computer and "making it go". Do this, then do that, then do this and that.  I was lost the first day. Meanwhile that blond girl sitting next to me was breezing right along as if it were nothing.  I ended up dropping out of the class.  I simply couldn't do it and was almost in tears.  Reinforced in a big way the lesson that not everyones brains think or function the same way "may be true for the unwashed masses, but not for moi lol" and that just because someone can't do what you think is easy, doesn't mean that they don't have an ability of their own and that everyone has value.

Quote from: TheArtist on March 21, 2014, 03:28:23 PM
My brain was always much better at reasoning/"understanding" than remembering lists of rules.  I was taught math as a series of rules you had to memorize, without being taught any understanding, aka, what it meant.  My brain doesn't remember "lists" and rules, but I can figure things out (if confronted with a math problem I practically reinvent the a way to find it out as if I am some ancient Greek mathematician) lol.

I am not a memorizer either.  I learned the rules because I knew they were the wrenches of math.  My dad, one of his brothers, and an uncle were engineers (2 EEs and a Chem E) so I probably had more encouragement to learn math.  If you could have magically learned the rules, you probably would have done well.  

I remember having to memorize the "Midnight Ride of Paul Revere".  I lost count of how many times I actually wrote that #%^% poem out longhand to practice.  I passed by  writing it one more time in class.  A week later I couldn't have done it.  On the other hand I still remember the ignition point dwell on a GM V8 was 30º.  Just clip on the meter and dial it in with an "Allen" wrench.  Dad (EE) explained that approximately 2/3 of the time available for each cylinder was required to "charge" the ignition coil.  2/3 of 45º (8 flats on the point cam) was 30º.  Easy.  I haven't owned a car that needed that for 20 years.  I did well in math up to Differential Equations.  The  prof tried to teach us to assume a solution of the correct form and then verify it was correct.  I asked how to determine the correct form.  He said you just had to know. Then he would put an equation on the test unlike those we had seen and practiced.  I passed but not with a good grade.  I the engineering world if you need a solution of an uncommon form and LaPlace transforms won't do it, find a mathematician.

Edit:
Add " " to charge because you don't really "charge" an coil.  You need to let the current flow develop.

Step in the right direction!
http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/education/oklahoma-senate-panel-to-hear-repeal-of-common-core/25133604

OKLAHOMA CITY —A state Senate committee has passed legislation that would limit federal control over so-called Common Core standards for math and English instruction in Oklahoma's public schools.
   
The Senate Education Committee voted 11-0 for the measure Monday. The House-passed bill authorizes development of new English and math standards and prohibits the state Board of Education from entering into any contract that would limit state control.
   
The measure's author, Sen. Josh Brecheen of Coalgate, says the bill ensures that Oklahoma's standards exceed those of Common Core without surrendering state control. Under the bill, the Board of Education would work with higher education and Career-Tech officials to adopt new standards by 2015.

Quote from: nathanm on March 21, 2014, 12:57:53 PM
Sounds to me like common core teaches kids how to rearrange a problem into a simpler formulation. I'm not quite sure why that's a bad thing, but that may be because I haven't written out a math problem on paper in 15 years.

H, algebra was generally not taught until 9th (8th for AP kids) grade when I was in school. And that was in what was considered a pretty good school (and district). The standard progression was Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and then Precal as a senior. AP kids got calculus as seniors instead. Not being a teacher, I have no idea whether that's the best way of doing things, only that it has been the standard for a very long time.

Some of it is rearranging it into "simpler" math but it's not working for them, and when I showed them the way I do math - it works, but they can't use it because they get penalized, so we struggle doing it together. I suppose I was very lucky because my school and teachers embraced independent thinking. I was allowed to work independently in grade school during math class, if I solved a math problem doing it a different way than I was taught, as long as I showed my work, I received credit. I don't see the harm in allowing students to use the method which serves them best, I do see harm in forcing them to do it one way or points are deducted, despite having the correct answer. What kind of minds are we raising teaching them "there is only ONE way to solve this problem" and if they don't adhere to that one (usually inefficient) way, then they'll be penalized?

And I'm sorry, but sometimes memorization is unavoidable. How else but through memorization does one learn definitions, increase vocabulary, and proper grammar? 

Quote from: Kallima on March 24, 2014, 11:50:10 PM

And I'm sorry, but sometimes memorization is unavoidable. How else but through memorization does one learn definitions, increase vocabulary, and proper grammar? 

Reading & Context

Quote from: Kallima on March 24, 2014, 11:50:10 PM
I was allowed to work independently in grade school during math class, if I solved a math problem doing it a different way than I was taught, as long as I showed my work, I received credit. I don't see the harm in allowing students to use the method which serves them best, I do see harm in forcing them to do it one way or points are deducted, despite having the correct answer.

My  favorite method was to show my work, multiply those results by zero, then add the correct answer.

;D

Quote from: Gaspar on March 21, 2014, 10:42:52 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjQk77lCMAAwd4H.jpg:large)

You guys didn't use number lines when you were in grade school?  How old is Jack?  I assume he's in early grade school.   This particular exercise isn't designed to teach the fastest method of solving the problem, but rather to create a visual cue (via the number line) that the number can be broken up into multiple sets of 100's, 10's, and 1's, and by lining those sets up on a line the correct answer can be found.  It's a very good (albeit inefficient) method to illustrate how to break down simple numbers and solve problems.  Now if they're teaching this in fifth grade I have a problem, but for 1st or 2nd, it could help some kids learn.

"Frustrated Parent" sounds like an @$$.  First,  I guess he's (or She's, don't want to place blame, but it reads like a guy...) forgotten that he didn't immediately start doing calculations in the most simplistic manner.  He had to learn the mechanics behind them before he learned the cheats.  Or maybe that's the problem, he never did learn the foundations and can only figure things out in the way he is accustomed to working the problem.  I'm sure a high-falutin' Elec Engineer like FP would look down on me because I'm only an MS in Industrial Engineering. But instead of working on machines, I work with people, and it took me about five seconds to see what Jack did wrong.  Maybe Frustrated Parent needs a little more human interaction to understand that not everybody thinks the same way (or in the same manner) as he does.     

How long has common core been in operation?

I remember some controversy about a math program called "base 10" back when my little brother was in grade school. Parents couldn't understand it and complained but it didn't hold my brother back. He became a computer engineer.

Quote from: TheArtist on March 25, 2014, 07:20:01 AM
Reading & Context

Yes, those are great tools and how I expanded my vocabulary as a youngster, but not all definitions can be deduced based on the context or structure of a sentence. I'll use gratuitous as an example since it was one of the most recent vocabulary builders I gave to my nephew. "The violence of some video games are gratuitous." He knew one definition of the word, but it didn't apply in this situation so he was forced to actually open a dictionary and look up alternate definitions. Reading and context can only provide so much, the rest is memorization and application. You can read all the great tomes you want, but if you are taking a test/quiz and are asked to identify all the verbs and adjectives, unless that definition/concept of a verb and adjective has been memorized, you'll fail the test. Just to add, my 8th grade niece reads at least 1 book a week yet she can not properly identify the object of a preposition. There are some things that must be memorized. Is it fun? Not particularly, but it is sometimes a necessary evil, much like taxes.

Quote from: rebound on March 25, 2014, 08:51:01 AM
You guys didn't use number lines when you were in grade school?  How old is Jack?  I assume he's in early grade school.   This particular exercise isn't designed to teach the fastest method of solving the problem, but rather to create a visual cue (via the number line) that the number can be broken up into multiple sets of 100's, 10's, and 1's, and by lining those sets up on a line the correct answer can be found.  It's a very good (albeit inefficient) method to illustrate how to break down simple numbers and solve problems.  Now if they're teaching this in fifth grade I have a problem, but for 1st or 2nd, it could help some kids learn.

"Frustrated Parent" sounds like an @$$.  First,  I guess he's (or She's, don't want to place blame, but it reads like a guy...) forgotten that he didn't immediately start doing calculations in the most simplistic manner.  He had to learn the mechanics behind them before he learned the cheats.  Or maybe that's the problem, he never did learn the foundations and can only figure things out in the way he is accustomed to working the problem.  I'm sure a high-falutin' Elec Engineer like FP would look down on me because I'm only an MS in Industrial Engineering. But instead of working on machines, I work with people, and it took me about five seconds to see what Jack did wrong.  Maybe Frustrated Parent needs a little more human interaction to understand that not everybody thinks the same way (or in the same manner) as he does.     

My youngest niece is in the 6th grade and in advanced classes, I'll have to upload an example of how they are teaching math these days. Trust me, I don't have children and if not thrust into this situation due to circumstances beyond my control, I would have been blissfully ignorant of what is going on in our public schools, but the more involved I become, the more terrified I get. Never once did I think home schooling or private school was a superior alternative to public schools, but that is an opinion I am slowly reconsidering.

Perhaps we can keep that pesky metric system away too.

Quote from: sgrizzle on March 25, 2014, 08:49:12 PM
Perhaps we can keep that pesky metric system away too.

LOL.  I remember we were learning that when I was in third and fourth grade because, it was said, we would be transitioned over to metric by 1980.  LOL.

I was watching something on DIY the other day where a transplanted Aussie was referring to the Imperial measurement system (for those of you not in the know, that's what we use :) ) as "The King's Foot".

Never heard it called that but it was amusing.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 25, 2014, 11:38:06 AM
How long has common core been in operation?

I remember some controversy about a math program called "base 10" back when my little brother was in grade school. Parents couldn't understand it and complained but it didn't hold my brother back. He became a computer engineer.

I tried to duct tape two fingers together on each hand of the oldest daughter so she would learn to count in octal....

Quote from: sgrizzle on March 25, 2014, 08:49:12 PM
Perhaps we can keep that pesky metric system away too.

Unfortunately, we have been way too successful at that....using inches/feet is as if we were trying to write advanced technical items in Sanskrit.  Stupid not to have changed a couple hundred years ago, when it would have been easy.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 25, 2014, 10:27:55 PM

Unfortunately, we have been way too successful at that....using inches/feet is as if we were trying to write advanced technical items in Sanskrit.  Stupid not to have changed a couple hundred years ago, when it would have been easy.

From elementary school, I recall that we were supposed to have converted to the metric system at some point in the 1980's. 

Doing a little checking, apparently there was a metrication act passed in 1975 that apparently never was fully deployed.

The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it.

Quote from: Conan71 on March 26, 2014, 08:25:22 AM
From elementary school, I recall that we were supposed to have converted to the metric system at some point in the 1980's. 

Doing a little checking, apparently there was a metrication act passed in 1975 that apparently never was fully deployed.

I remember the "thinkmetric" signs.  There were also conversion signs.

Quote from: Kallima on March 25, 2014, 08:08:54 PM
My youngest niece is in the 6th grade and in advanced classes, I'll have to upload an example of how they are teaching math these days. Trust me, I don't have children and if not thrust into this situation due to circumstances beyond my control, I would have been blissfully ignorant of what is going on in our public schools, but the more involved I become, the more terrified I get. Never once did I think home schooling or private school was a superior alternative to public schools, but that is an opinion I am slowly reconsidering.

I've got a 7th grader and a 9th grader.  Both in advanced classes.  Both went through common core the last two years here in Owasso.  (The Freshman is now at Bishop Kelley.)  I will confess to not being too concerned one way or the other regarding common core as a whole, but I was fairly involved with making sure all the homework was complete, etc, and never had an issue (other than the sheer amount) with any of the homework assignments or methods of teaching, and both kids did (and are doing) well.

You mention private and home schooling, and while there are a number of factors related to moving my oldest to private school, the quality of teaching was not one of them.  Yes, there are some additional advanced classes offered at private schools, and the class sizes are smaller, etc.  (You get what you pay for).  But I can honestly say that I was (and still am, for the youngest) satisfied with the level of teaching and course content in Owasso.   With any school system as large as Owasso (and Jenks, and BA, and Union, etc...) there is going to be some leveling and a greater opportunity for a kid to get lost in shuffle.  But from a pure level of teaching, I give Owasso a thumbs up.

As for actual home schooling, I have multiple reservations about that.  To me, home schooling removes the child too much from the day-to-day social interaction with other kids.  I know it is becoming more and more popular, but I would much sooner consider alternative schools or main-stream private schools before homeschooling.  

Quote from: Conan71 on March 26, 2014, 08:25:22 AM
Doing a little checking, apparently there was a metrication act passed in 1975 that apparently never was fully deployed.

There are still a few kph speed limit signs scattered around the country. IIRC, Texas installed a few replacements near the Mexican border a couple of years ago without switching them back from kph to mph. (These were some of the original kph signs installed back in the 70s being replaced)

Quote from: rebound on March 26, 2014, 09:41:07 AM
I've got a 7th grader and a 9th grader.  Both in advanced classes.  Both went through common core the last two years here in Owasso.  (The Freshman is now at Bishop Kelley.)  I will confess to not being too concerned one way or the other regarding common core as a whole, but I was fairly involved with making sure all the homework was complete, etc, and never had an issue (other than the sheer amount) with any of the homework assignments or methods of teaching, and both kids did (and are doing) well.

You mention private and home schooling, and while there are a number of factors related to moving my oldest to private school, the quality of teaching was not one of them.  Yes, there are some additional advanced classes offered at private schools, and the class sizes are smaller, etc.  (You get what you pay for).  But I can honestly say that I was (and still am, for the youngest) satisfied with the level of teaching and course content in Owasso.   With any school system as large as Owasso (and Jenks, and BA, and Union, etc...) there is going to be some leveling and a greater opportunity for a kid to get lost in shuffle.  But from a pure level of teaching, I give Owasso a thumbs up.

As for actual home schooling, I have multiple reservations about that.  To me, home schooling removes the child too much from the day-to-day social interaction with other kids.  I know it is becoming more and more popular, but I would much sooner consider alternative schools or main-stream private schools before homeschooling.  

Thank you for the insight, DH and I are still trying to find a solution, we most likely and unfortunately will be moving to OKC and have already done some research on the private schools there. I definitely agree that home-schooling has it's negatives and will be a last resort, but the mere fact it was a consideration was me simply displaying the sheer frustration I feel, part of it from acclimating to a role for which I wasn't prepared and the remainder from witnessing children struggle with concepts that IMO should have been mastered long ago. Maybe once the adjustment has occurred for all parties, I'll feel more at ease, still vigilant, but less worried.

(http://i.imgur.com/EVUovGW.jpg)

Quote from: Breadburner on April 02, 2014, 11:08:42 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/EVUovGW.jpg)

This exact thing was posted on the last page.
(not to mention this method has been around longer than I have)

Test scores came back for Jenks 3rd graders this week. 6 did not pass.  In my daughter's class, the teacher (her second teacher for the year, because the first one went to jail) passed out a letter (for the kids to take home to parents) to the students and then the teacher went around the class writing each child's score on the letter.  The kids were all excited and confused as to what their score meant, and were comparing scores.  One little girl had the lowest score in the class and was ridiculed by her classmates.  There was a rush to get these scores home to the parents, most likely because the news was going to cover them that night, and the administration wanted to avoid a deluge of calls.

This little girl who was publicly humiliated was one of my daughter's best friends, and very sweet.  She scored unsatisfactory and will be held back.  She was devastated and embarrassed to tears in front of her whole class.  She probably won't come back to school for the rest of the year, or attend Girl Scouts with my daughter and several others from her class this summer. The parents (all of us) were outraged, and my gut is still in a ball.  After a series of angry calls and emails the teacher has been fired, but that does nothing for this little girl.

We have cut our household budget and paid our first months tuition for a private school for both kids next year. Two other families with kids in the class will be doing the same, as well as another teacher, with whom we are friends, she will be leaving the school to take a position at the same private school we have chosen for our kids.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 15, 2014, 10:28:58 AM
We have cut our household budget and paid our first months tuition for a private school for both kids next year. Two other families with kids in the class will be doing the same, as well as another teacher, with whom we are friends, she will be leaving the school to take a position at the same private school we have chosen for our kids.

So is this a general dissatisfaction with Jenks Schools, Common Core, or this particular teacher?  Not questioning the move (we're doing the same thing), just looking for clarification on the reason.

Quote from: rebound on May 15, 2014, 10:46:36 AM
So is this a general dissatisfaction with Jenks Schools, Common Core, or this particular teacher?  Not questioning the move (we're doing the same thing), just looking for clarification on the reason.

It seems there are multiple reasons and we are just glad that the year and this chapter in our child's education is over.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 15, 2014, 10:28:58 AM
Test scores came back for Jenks 3rd graders this week. 6 did not pass.  In my daughter's class, the teacher (her second teacher for the year, because the first one went to jail) passed out a letter (for the kids to take home to parents) to the students and then the teacher went around the class writing each child's score on the letter.  The kids were all excited and confused as to what their score meant, and were comparing scores.  One little girl had the lowest score in the class and was ridiculed by her classmates.  There was a rush to get these scores home to the parents, most likely because the news was going to cover them that night, and the administration wanted to avoid a deluge of calls.

This little girl who was publicly humiliated was one of my daughter's best friends, and very sweet.  She scored unsatisfactory and will be held back.  She was devastated and embarrassed to tears in front of her whole class.  She probably won't come back to school for the rest of the year, or attend Girl Scouts with my daughter and several others from her class this summer. The parents (all of us) were outraged, and my gut is still in a ball.  After a series of angry calls and emails the teacher has been fired, but that does nothing for this little girl.

We have cut our household budget and paid our first months tuition for a private school for both kids next year. Two other families with kids in the class will be doing the same, as well as another teacher, with whom we are friends, she will be leaving the school to take a position at the same private school we have chosen for our kids.

What is going on at Jenks East with your teachers?

I'm really confused about kids getting test scores like this in class too. My son is in 7th at Jenks Middle School but takes a high school level math course so he took a state high school EOI (end of instruction) test a week or so ago. I asked him last night when did they expect to get the EOI scores and he said his teacher already gave them out to the kids and he got  49 (out of 52). That seemed really strange, before these kinds of scores have always been sent home in sealed envelopes or mailed home. Now they are just telling the kids the scores in class? My daughter is a senior and doesn't have any EOI tests this year but I don't' recall her even getting scores like this. She certainly doesn't get AP scores like this. Is this something the state has done?

Quote from: TeeDub on March 26, 2014, 08:42:44 AM
The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it.

10 feet per gallon..??!!  You like that??   Ouch!


Wait...was it a claret, madeira, or sherry hogshead?

Quote from: Gaspar on May 15, 2014, 10:28:58 AM

This little girl who was publicly humiliated was one of my daughter's best friends, and very sweet.  She scored unsatisfactory and will be held back.  She was devastated and embarrassed to tears in front of her whole class.  She probably won't come back to school for the rest of the year, or attend Girl Scouts with my daughter and several others from her class this summer. The parents (all of us) were outraged, and my gut is still in a ball.  After a series of angry calls and emails the teacher has been fired, but that does nothing for this little girl.

That is so sad!!  Am very sorry to hear your - and any of the kids had to go through that!! 


No child left behind...yeah, right....

The testing takes up way too much time and the school year is already too short at just nine months. Testing takes the whole first month of school with reviewing and the benchmark tests and then year-end testing takes the whole last two months of school. Yes, two months, schools take a whole month to review and test prep and then the state gives the test a full month before school is out. Little is done in class after the testing is complete so that leaves just six months of the year where actual learning is taking place.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 15, 2014, 10:28:58 AM
Test scores came back for Jenks 3rd graders this week. 6 did not pass.  In my daughter's class, the teacher (her second teacher for the year, because the first one went to jail) passed out a letter (for the kids to take home to parents) to the students and then the teacher went around the class writing each child's score on the letter.  The kids were all excited and confused as to what their score meant, and were comparing scores.  One little girl had the lowest score in the class and was ridiculed by her classmates.  There was a rush to get these scores home to the parents, most likely because the news was going to cover them that night, and the administration wanted to avoid a deluge of calls.

This little girl who was publicly humiliated was one of my daughter's best friends, and very sweet.  She scored unsatisfactory and will be held back.  She was devastated and embarrassed to tears in front of her whole class.  She probably won't come back to school for the rest of the year, or attend Girl Scouts with my daughter and several others from her class this summer. The parents (all of us) were outraged, and my gut is still in a ball.  After a series of angry calls and emails the teacher has been fired, but that does nothing for this little girl.

We have cut our household budget and paid our first months tuition for a private school for both kids next year. Two other families with kids in the class will be doing the same, as well as another teacher, with whom we are friends, she will be leaving the school to take a position at the same private school we have chosen for our kids.

Ever consider it's not crappy public schools, just your school that's crappy?

My daughter is in 3rd grade at TPS and nothing remotely like what you just said happened with any of the 3rd grade classes at her school.

Quote from: swake on May 15, 2014, 02:23:42 PM
The testing takes up way too much time and the school year is already too short at just nine months. Testing takes the whole first month of school with reviewing and the benchmark tests and then year-end testing takes the whole last two months of school. Yes, two months, schools take a whole month to review and test prep and then the state gives the test a full month before school is out. Little is done in class after the testing is complete so that leaves just six months of the year where actual learning is taking place.

Correct!  All homework and interactive class activities came to a standstill, and the kids (3rd graders mind you) were injected with the fear that not passing the test meant leaving their friends behind.  My daughter couldn't sleep for two days before the test started and was frightened to the point of nausea the day she completed the test.

Now we have 20% of the state's 3rd graders that aren't eligible to advance.  I know that yesterday our state house passed an amendment to the RSA, and the Governor is likely going to sign a bill putting the advancement decision back in the hands of teachers and parents, but what was the state going to do if all of a sudden 3rd grade class sizes exploded with holdovers? 

My child scored well, but every child learns differently and sometimes kids with below average reading skills have above average minds.  The idea of mechanical standardized teaching is ridiculous.  I have a kindergarten boy who can already read and loves nothing more than blurting out math problems.  He is academically advanced but he is young for his grade and emotionally not ready to advance compared to his classmates.  We are holding him back this year because we understand there is far more to education than standardized proficiencies.

Our son is far from being exposed to any of the common core crap, and we have been successful in reprograming our daughter to overcome that learned handicap as well, so that she will be ready to enter and advance in the individual based learning environment she will have in private school.

I remember back in the 80's when I went to school at Jenks, teachers were very involved with parents on educational decision making and beyond the ACT or other placement tests, teachers, schools, and parents made holistic educational decisions based on individual students.  Now it seems that the students are expected to be mechanically placed, and the teachers mechanically governed.  The only realistic outcome for that would be standardized group-think, and the production of cogs for the great machine.

Public schools are government-established, politician- and bureaucrat-controlled, fully politicized, taxpayer-supported, authoritarian socialist institutions. In fact, the public-school system is one of the purest examples of socialism existing in America. – Thomas L. Johnson 

QuoteEver consider it's not crappy public schools, just your school that's crappy?

My daughter is in 3rd grade at TPS and nothing remotely like what you just said happened with any of the 3rd grade classes at her school.

Grizz,
I understand, but 1/3rd of TPS 3rd graders failed! . . . and without the Governors signature on that amendment could be held back.  My point is that we have just seen some amazing examples of what happens when government attempts to override the parent, the school, and the teacher.  I'm glad I'm done dealing with it.  I wish I didn't have to pay double for my kid's education but I must through force.  It would be cheaper by about $1,000/yr for the state to provide me with a voucher, but that's a pipe-dream for now.

Have you ever noticed how statists are constantly "reforming" their own handiwork? Education reform. Health-care reform. Welfare reform. Tax reform. The very fact that they're always busy "reforming" is an implicit admission that they didn't get it right the first 50 times. – Lawrence W. Reed

Quote from: Gaspar on May 15, 2014, 03:48:39 PM

Grizz,
I understand, but 1/3rd of TPS 3rd graders failed! . . . and without the Governors signature on that amendment could be held back.  My point is that we have just seen some amazing examples of what happens when government attempts to override the parent, the school, and the teacher.  I'm glad I'm done dealing with it.  I wish I didn't have to pay double for my kid's education but I must through force.  It would be cheaper by about $1,000/yr for the state to provide me with a voucher, but that's a pipe-dream for now.

I don't know who didn't pass (because we don't believe in public flogging like Jenks (they probably just want those kids out of their district, skewing their numbers) but as I understand it, those who tests as poor reading performers were, by and large, poor reading performers.

In 4th grade and later especially, kids need to have good reading skills to learn. Teachers can't just ESP everything to their students. Maybe not 1/3rd should be held back, but I'm guessing 1/3rd of TPS kids aren't reading as well as they are supposed to. While I don't necessarily agree with how things are being handled, just letting kids who can't read fly right on by has proven to be a flawed theory for the last few decades. "Being smart" isn't a reason to advance. My son does math on the 3rd grade level and reading on 2nd. He's pretty smart, but that doesn't mean he should be a 4th grader (especially since he's 7)

Here is what a 3rd grader would be using in 1879.  Through about 1910.  Lots of these available free....

McGuffey's Third....

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14766/14766-pdf.pdf

Quote from: sgrizzle on May 15, 2014, 04:02:39 PM
I don't know who didn't pass (because we don't believe in public flogging like Jenks (they probably just want those kids out of their district, skewing their numbers) but as I understand it, those who tests as poor reading performers were, by and large, poor reading performers.

In 4th grade and later especially, kids need to have good reading skills to learn. Teachers can't just ESP everything to their students. Maybe not 1/3rd should be held back, but I'm guessing 1/3rd of TPS kids aren't reading as well as they are supposed to. While I don't necessarily agree with how things are being handled, just letting kids who can't read fly right on by has proven to be a flawed theory for the last few decades. "Being smart" isn't a reason to advance. My son does math on the 3rd grade level and reading on 2nd. He's pretty smart, but that doesn't mean he should be a 4th grader (especially since he's 7)

The 30% reading failure rate, like most percentage "facts", is very misleading. Yes, some TPS schools did badly. The ones you would expect to do badly. Gilcrease, Hawthorne, etc. But many did quite well, and they were the ones you would expect, like Eisenhower, Lee, Eliot etc.  Its doubtful that someone as clever, prosperous and insightful as Gaspar would have his kids in the low performing schools or even live near them. To then use those figures to fill private schools is exactly what the low funding policy of the state of Oklahoma is designed to accomplish. Sheep need good herders.

The poorly performing schools also cost the state more per student than many of the private alternatives. It seems that throwing money at the problem is still not working.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 06:29:13 AM
The poorly performing schools also cost the state more per student than many of the private alternatives. It seems that throwing money at the problem is still not working.

Cars in Maple Ridge are nicer than cars in Apache Manor. Obviously if everyone just moved to Maple Ridge then everyone would have nicer cars.

Grizz, Idealogues are poor listeners with weak comprehension skills.

  There was an article in the news about one Tulsa school whose 3rd graders did really well and noted how small their class sizes were and how hard their students worked to pass the tests.  One commenter said something interesting wondering how many special needs and english as a second language students they had compared to some other schools?  

Was talking to a teacher about common core the other day and she noted something interesting I hadn't thought of.  She said something to the effect of, say you start teaching common core to a new 3rd grade class, what is being taught and how it is being taught is highly dependent on having had the common core teaching methods used with those students the year before, and the year before that... but of course they weren't used before because the method is just now being taught to these 3rd graders for the first time.  Rather than these new methods and tests being implemented gradually from the lowest grades up, they are basically being applied across the board all at once with upper grades straddled with the disadvantage of not having been taught the way and type of information the years before, that they would need in order to start the new year off on a solid footing.  So many teachers would not only be working on meeting the tests for this year but also trying to play catch up and help the students learn what they should have learned the years before had they taken common core classes earlier.  Then throw onto that larger class sizes like this teacher has and english as second language, parents that don't care  (and she told me some stories that would make you quite sad) or parents who "care" but are on drugs or are no more than undereducated kids themselves, etc.

As for public and private schools.  Our city and state will rise and fall mostly depending on the public schools performances, not the private schools performances. Even if you put your student in a private school, their welfare in this city and state will be greatly affected by the success, or lack there of, of the private schools. I don't think we will likely see how our State ranks in this or that indicator as a reflection of how well our private schools do.  

Very well said, especially the last paragraph.

In conversations with teachers, they feel besieged and trapped. The legislation required them to teach in ways inconsistent with logic, which you pointed out. They feel in their hearts that the legislature, the governors office and school boards are populated with idealogues who want the system to fail and be privatized. True or not, its a conspiratorial mindset that seems to be borne out by actions and supported by the general public.

There is no target more popular for criticism than public schools, yet few private schools would do much better with the students the public schools have to instruct.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 06:29:13 AM
The poorly performing schools also cost the state more per student than many of the private alternatives. It seems that throwing money at the problem is still not working.

Or it's more difficult and more expensive to teach children with less support at home.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 16, 2014, 09:30:13 AM
Very well said, especially the last paragraph.

In conversations with teachers, they feel besieged and trapped. The legislation required them to teach in ways inconsistent with logic, which you pointed out. They feel in their hearts that the legislature, the governors office and school boards are populated with idealogues who want the system to fail and be privatized. True or not, its a conspiratorial mindset that seems to be borne out by actions and supported by the general public.

There is no target more popular for criticism than public schools, yet few private schools would do much better with the students the public schools have to instruct.

It is a siege.  It is a plan to cause failure of public schools - they talk about it in the RWRE (idealogue) 'code' and legislative actions.  Example; cut $200+ million from public education, while giving $250+ million subsidies to oil for fracking, etc...


Private schools can kick out the ones who bring down the curve - and they do!  (Church On the Move school has done so to 3 kids I know.)

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 16, 2014, 10:22:14 AM

It is a siege.  It is a plan to cause failure of public schools - they talk about it in the RWRE (idealogue) 'code' and legislative actions.  Example; cut $200+ million from public education, while giving $250+ million subsidies to oil for fracking, etc...


Private schools can kick out the ones who bring down the curve - and they do!  (Church On the Move school has done so to 3 kids I know.)

So why not a voucher system like the one in Wisconsin. It decreases class size, increases private options, creates competitive pressure for excellence, and gives poor and minority students more opportunity. The program has now gone statewide after booming success for both public and private schools in several cities.  If you really want to improve education, you would give parents choices, remove politics, and encourage competitive pressures.  

Otherwise it's just a political game played by teachers unions and the politicians.  The kids are just pawns.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 10:30:08 AM
So why not a voucher system like the one in Wisconsin. It decreases class size, increases private options, and creates competitive pressure for excellence. The program has now gone statewide after booming success for both public and private schools in several cities.  If you really want to improve education, you would give parents choices, remove politics, and encourage competitive pressures. 

Otherwise it's just a political game played by teachers unions and the politicians.  The kids are just pawns.

Because a huge part of the cost of public schools are disabled children being mainstreamed and less advantaged kids. Teaching your child doesn't cost the average cost of education in the state. Not even close.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 10:30:08 AM
So why not a voucher system like the one in Wisconsin. It decreases class size, increases private options, creates competitive pressure for excellence, and gives poor and minority students more opportunity. The program has now gone statewide after booming success for both public and private schools in several cities.  If you really want to improve education, you would give parents choices, remove politics, and encourage competitive pressures.  

Otherwise it's just a political game played by teachers unions and the politicians.  The kids are just pawns.

Because of part two of that post.  You ignored the second line completely.  IF a voucher system required the private schools to take all the kids in a district - like public schools are, then I might be in favor of a voucher.  Until then, there is WAY too much 'cherry-picking' going on for students as it is.  Leads to an "intellectual inbreeding" situation that is NOT healthy for our society.

Quote from: swake on May 16, 2014, 10:32:30 AM
Because a huge part of the cost of public schools are disabled children being mainstreamed and less advantaged kids. Teaching your child doesn't cost the average cost of education in the state. Not even close.

I would be interested to see what those numbers and costs are.  I believe that about 13% of Oklahoma students are considered to have some learning disability, and our current expenditure is $9,075 per student ($3,000 per student more than I am paying for a private school).  

Interestingly enough, one of the subjects covered at all three private schools we investigated was learning disabilities, and each offer programs, but none of them charge any extra tuition for them. I can't help but think that for under-advantaged kids having the option to choose a better education, would be. . .well. . .better?

Anywhoo, carry on.  We're done with the public system and I'll continue to push for the rights of parents to improve their kid's educations through choice.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 10:53:54 AM
 ... our current expenditure is $9,075 per student ($3,000 per student more than I am paying for a private school).  

You are only paying $6,000 a year? The good private schools are more expensive.

Do you send you kids to some sort of combination welding/beauty school?

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 10:53:54 AM
I would be interested to see what those numbers and costs are.  I believe that about 13% of Oklahoma students are considered to have some learning disability, and our current expenditure is $9,075 per student ($3,000 per student more than I am paying for a private school).  

Interestingly enough, one of the subjects covered at all three private schools we investigated was learning disabilities, and each offer programs, but none of them charge any extra tuition for them. I can't help but think that for under-advantaged kids having the option to choose a better education, would be. . .well. . .better?

Anywhoo, carry on.  We're done with the public system and I'll continue to push for the rights of parents to improve their kid's educations through choice.

The only one I know that cheap is Victory.

Seriously, you aren't sending your kids to that cult you?

You understand they reject parts of basic math, teach young earth creationism and as an added bonus cover up child rape? Right?  That's not an education, it's indoctrination.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 10:53:54 AM
Anywhoo, carry on.  We're done with the public system and I'll continue to push for the rights of parents to improve their kid's educations through choice.

Are school boards not elected in this state?

Quote from: swake on May 16, 2014, 11:46:37 AM
The only one I know that cheap is Victory.

Seriously, you aren't sending your kids to that cult you?

You understand they reject parts of basic math, teach young earth creationism and as an added bonus cover up child rape? Right?  That's not an education, it's indoctrination.

School of St. Mary.  It would be less if we were Catholic.  Excellent program and facility.  We also looked at Marquette.  It's actually just slightly under $6K.

Quote from: nathanm on May 16, 2014, 11:48:40 AM
Are school boards not elected in this state?

Yes.  So are presidents but we still seem to be forced into things that we don't want.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/28/obama-health-law-fails-gain-support-poll/

I was talking about individual choice.  Not group choice.  I know it's confusing.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 12:06:16 PM
I was talking about individual choice.  Not group choice.  I know it's confusing.

There go those goalposts again. They move so much.

Quote from: nathanm on May 16, 2014, 12:34:09 PM
There go those goalposts again. They move so much.

Not really.  I think it's rather clear that when someone talks about a parent choosing their child's school, they are talking about making an individual choice, not casting a ballot.

(http://images.cafepress.com/image/50386673_400x400.jpg)

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 12:02:06 PM
School of St. Mary.  It would be less if we were Catholic.  Excellent program and facility.  We also looked at Marquette.  It's actually just slightly under $6K.

Ok, much better. I know kids that have gone there and done very well. Good place.

Quote from: swake on May 16, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
Ok, much better. I know kids that have gone there and done very well. Good place.

I know I'm a geek, but when I saw the computer lab my heart skipped a beat.  They have amazing top of the line equipment, and start teaching very basic programming, Office suite, Photoshop, and vector based design programs in 4th grade.  They will also start teaching 3D modeling with SketchUp and VUE, and perhaps even some 3D printing next year thanks to a new parent volunteer  ::).

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 16, 2014, 10:41:31 AM

Because of part two of that post.  You ignored the second line completely.  IF a voucher system required the private schools to take all the kids in a district - like public schools are, then I might be in favor of a voucher.  Until then, there is WAY too much 'cherry-picking' going on for students as it is.  Leads to an "intellectual inbreeding" situation that is NOT healthy for our society.

At the same time, you don't want the education of the brightest being disrupted or dumbed down by forcing them to sit through remedial instruction just to keep it "fair".

Quote from: Conan71 on May 16, 2014, 04:08:13 PM
At the same time, you don't want the education of the brightest being disrupted or dumbed down by forcing them to sit through remedial instruction just to keep it "fair".

". . .and the trees are all kept equal by hatchet axe and saw!"

(http://www.millpondrb.ca/wp-content/uploads/geddy-lee.jpeg)

Quote from: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 04:24:14 PM
". . .and the trees are all kept equal by hatchet axe and saw!"

(http://www.millpondrb.ca/wp-content/uploads/geddy-lee.jpeg)

Geddy!

Quote from: Conan71 on May 16, 2014, 04:08:13 PM
At the same time, you don't want the education of the brightest being disrupted or dumbed down by forcing them to sit through remedial instruction just to keep it "fair".

No, I don't.   Oklahoma obviously needs some outside help, and Iowa education would be a great place to start. 

What is means is that there must be some 'common' classes - the whole 'mainstreaming' effort we have seen for several decades, but there must also be some parsing among skill levels - even more than there is with "AP" type structures - with extra attention applied for some.  It takes a much more complicated system and that just isn't gonna happen due to all the factions that exist today.  So, as of now, we have private schools to "cherry-pick" and the public schools muddle along with their ongoing mess.  Evolution is occurring - just a question of how society is gonna fare at the end of these experiments.  I don't hold out much hope until there is dramatically greater parental participation.  And that hasn't happened in 100+ years so far....

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 19, 2014, 09:16:31 AM

I don't hold out much hope until there is dramatically greater parental participation. 

Everything else is pretty much meaningless without that.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2014, 09:24:41 AM
Everything else is pretty much meaningless without that.

I have a whole herd of teachers in the family, and to a person, they all say that is the number one issue/obstacle to teaching!!   

Well, besides inadequate state funding...those hundreds of millions of cuts while subsidizing billionaires with bigger hundreds of millions of breaks....

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 19, 2014, 11:01:49 AM

I have a whole herd of teachers in the family, and to a person, they all say that is the number one issue/obstacle to teaching!!  

Well, besides inadequate state funding...those hundreds of millions of cuts while subsidizing billionaires with bigger hundreds of millions of breaks....

What do they tell you should be done about it "aka getting better parental participation"?  

Are we going to have a new government social engineering program to implement it?  Perhaps create a whole new infrastructure of  "good parenting" schools?  Perhaps we should just point and shake our fingers at these people while forcefully saying "Be a good parent!" and that will fix it, they will suddenly become capable people with good parenting and life skills/habits?

Whats the solution to "bad parenting and poor parent participation"?

Think it through and I bet you will find it will be less costly, less time consuming, and take less effort to fix things on the kid end versus the parent end.  Especially when you consider that many of those failing kids may soon likely be the "failing" parents.

Quote from: TheArtist on May 19, 2014, 01:06:16 PM
What do they tell you should be done about it "aka getting better parental participation"?  

Are we going to have a new government social engineering program to implement it?  Perhaps create a whole new infrastructure of  "good parenting" schools?  Perhaps we should just point and shake our fingers at these people while forcefully saying "Be a good parent!" and that will fix it, they will suddenly become capable people with good parenting and life skills/habits?

Whats the solution to "bad parenting and poor parent participation"?

Think it through and I bet you will find it will be less costly, less time consuming, and take less effort to fix things on the kid end versus the parent end.  Especially when you consider that many of those failing kids may soon likely be the "failing" parents.

(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--gak-j92v--/194trtw9lwx2hjpg.jpg)
Waaaaat? We can't just throw money at it?

It seems we are recognizing a culture issue.

The parents that expect the government to provide an education for their children are the same ones that simply expect all of the other things they are entitled to.  They have been trained to have expectations instead of ambitions.  We unfortunately know lots of them.  They remand their children, for 6 hours a day to the state, and could care less what happens during that time, because it's FREE, and it's not their responsibility.  They don't show up to parent/teacher conferences, because that's on their time.  When the kids get home in the evenings, they pop on SpongeBob (the other free babysitter), crack a beer and get upset if the kids bug them because they're tired from working all day for a boss that doesn't pay them what they think they are entitled to.   

The politicians love these parents, because these parents vote, and anything you promise from the state they will vote for.  If they want their kids to be smarterer, they will vote for more money for schools gosh-darnit!  If you promise them free healthcare, they will vote for it in a heartbeat! A vote to force employers to increase wages? Darn tootin!  Free day-care?  Whoohoo! 3 hour work week? Hells yeah!

But. . .if you ask them to sacrifice time, energy, or make personal financial sacrifices for the sake of their kids, you've got a fight on your hands, because that is the responsibility of the government! 

When you make something "free" (I know, but they don get it), you destroy its value.  These parents have been trained that educating their child is not their responsibility. They have no investment in it, and no accountability to participate.  When there is a failure, they are easily led to the conclusion that it's a funding issue, and are the first ones in line to vote to throw more money at it. Eventually you get school systems spending over $19,000 per year per student (NYC http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/governments/cb13-92.html) with no increase in academic performance.  When more money fails to do the trick, the solution is of course more money.

You won't get more parent involvement without parent investment.  Change will only come with choice.


The state is essentially an apparatus of compulsion and coercion. The characteristic feature of its activities is to compel people through the application or the threat of force to behave otherwise than they would like to behave. – Ludwig von Mises

Quote from: TheArtist on May 19, 2014, 01:06:16 PM
What do they tell you should be done about it "aka getting better parental participation"?  

Are we going to have a new government social engineering program to implement it?  Perhaps create a whole new infrastructure of  "good parenting" schools?  Perhaps we should just point and shake our fingers at these people while forcefully saying "Be a good parent!" and that will fix it, they will suddenly become capable people with good parenting and life skills/habits?

Whats the solution to "bad parenting and poor parent participation"?

Think it through and I bet you will find it will be less costly, less time consuming, and take less effort to fix things on the kid end versus the parent end.  Especially when you consider that many of those failing kids may soon likely be the "failing" parents.

That's the rub, ain't it?  It's a catch 22 situation.   No good way from parent end.  MUST start with getting the kids raised up to care in the first place.   Tulsa has some "poster-child" efforts going on with pre-school now...maybe some of that will soak in and "stick"....

But we as a society have been at it a long time, and seem "stuck" on about a 25 - 30% overall failure rate with our kids.  (Non-graduates of high school).

Quote from: Gaspar on May 19, 2014, 04:13:43 PM
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--gak-j92v--/194trtw9lwx2hjpg.jpg)
Waaaaat? We can't just throw money at it?

It seems we are recognizing a culture issue.

The parents that expect the government to provide an education for their children are the same ones that simply expect all of the other things they are entitled to.  They have been trained to have expectations instead of ambitions.  We unfortunately know lots of them.  They remand their children, for 6 hours a day to the state, and could care less what happens during that time, because it's FREE, and it's not their responsibility.  They don't show up to parent/teacher conferences, because that's on their time.  When the kids get home in the evenings, they pop on SpongeBob (the other free babysitter), crack a beer and get upset if the kids bug them because they're tired from working all day for a boss that doesn't pay them what they think they are entitled to.   

The politicians love these parents, because these parents vote, and anything you promise from the state they will vote for.  If they want their kids to be smarterer, they will vote for more money for schools gosh-darnit!  If you promise them free healthcare, they will vote for it in a heartbeat! A vote to force employers to increase wages? Darn tootin!  Free day-care?  Whoohoo! 3 hour work week? Hells yeah!

But. . .if you ask them to sacrifice time, energy, or make personal financial sacrifices for the sake of their kids, you've got a fight on your hands, because that is the responsibility of the government! 

When you make something "free" (I know, but they don get it), you destroy its value.  These parents have been trained that educating their child is not their responsibility. They have no investment in it, and no accountability to participate.  When there is a failure, they are easily led to the conclusion that it's a funding issue, and are the first ones in line to vote to throw more money at it. Eventually you get school systems spending over $19,000 per year per student (NYC http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/governments/cb13-92.html) with no increase in academic performance.  When more money fails to do the trick, the solution is of course more money.

You won't get more parent involvement without parent investment.  Change will only come with choice.

Be nice!  That is probably someone's mother!!


Rest of it...platitudes.   We are so far away from New York in spending - that is valueless comparison/analysis.  Compare closer.  Does TX get better outcomes?  'Cause they certainly spend more on teacher pay and equipment/infrastructure than we!  Remember:  $200+ million in cuts to education! 

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 19, 2014, 04:24:18 PM
Be nice!  That is probably someone's mother!!


Rest of it...platitudes.   We are so far away from New York in spending - that is valueless comparison/analysis.  Compare closer.  Does TX get better outcomes?  'Cause they certainly spend more on teacher pay and equipment/infrastructure than we!  Remember:  $200+ million in cuts to education! 

Highest spending per student a couple of years ago was Washington D.C.  Worst outcomes in the entire United States.  Spending per pupil simply does not equate to success, there are far too many other factors.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 19, 2014, 04:24:18 PM
Be nice!  That is probably someone's mother!!


Rest of it...platitudes.   We are so far away from New York in spending - that is valueless comparison/analysis.  Compare closer.  Does TX get better outcomes?  'Cause they certainly spend more on teacher pay and equipment/infrastructure than we!  Remember:  $200+ million in cuts to education! 

Perfect example^^^^

Again, the TEACHERS are the ones who say the #1 issue is parent participation, and immediately the liberals scream MORE MONEY!

Comparison's are useless if you are comparing apples to oranges. Putting new tires on a car won't make it handle any better if there is no driver.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2014, 04:26:53 PM
Highest spending per student a couple of years ago was Washington D.C.  Worst outcomes in the entire United States.  Spending per pupil simply does not equate to success, there are far too many other factors.

And we are not anything like Washington DC.  We are however, somewhat similar to TX.  And KS - more than 50% more than us.  MO - also similar, spending a lot more per.

Apples and apples.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 19, 2014, 04:29:42 PM
Perfect example^^^^

Again, the TEACHERS are the ones who say the #1 issue is parent participation, and immediately the liberals scream MORE MONEY!

Comparison's are useless if you are comparing apples to oranges. Putting new tires on a car won't make it handle any better if there is no driver.

See above note.  It IS apples/apples.

Number 2 was the FACT that they cannot get books or other minimal school infrastructure do the the $200+ million CUTs, on top of the woefully inadequate funding from previous years.  Another point you conveniently ignore.  Reality's kind of tough sometimes, isn't it?

And even when a dire need is tragically demonstrated - kids killed in tornadoes last year - we have a Failin' Governor and legislature who are still looking for ways to get around just doing what should be done - put storm shelters in every school.   That might mean they don't get to keep their 1/4% tax cuts and they haven't been able to figure out a way to skim their "10%" on the work that would get done.  You are right about one tiny little bit of that - there is no competent driver in the state government!

Would love to see your capital expenditure discussions at work....that would be hilarious!  And I bet it is a whole other story when it is YOUR ox getting gored....you don't need computers - use the sales books like the waitress at your local greasy spoon uses to take orders.  More than adequate!  Anything else is just wasting money.



Highest spending pretty much tied between New York and DC.

Per-Pupil Educational Expenditures Adjusted For Regional Cost Differences

Year(s): 2010 | Data Type: Currency

Data Provided by:
National KIDS COUNT
Location   Data Type   2010
Kansas   Currency   $11,785
Missouri   Currency   $10,747
Oklahoma   Currency   $9,430
Texas   Currency   $8,882

Quote from: sgrizzle on May 19, 2014, 07:18:02 PM
Per-Pupil Educational Expenditures Adjusted For Regional Cost Differences

Year(s): 2010 | Data Type: Currency

Data Provided by:
National KIDS COUNT
Location   Data Type   2010
Kansas   Currency   $11,785
Missouri   Currency   $10,747
Oklahoma   Currency   $9,430
Texas   Currency   $8,882

Texas was a bad example....as always.  About most things.....

KS is at $12,700. And even in 2010, they were at $12,200....slightly higher than that site.
http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/SpendingPerPupil/tabid/1271/Default.aspx

There is 10 - 15% difference that can only be part of the story.  That is the difference between getting books and not.  The parents must be another big part. 

Iowa is another one that spends just a little bit more than OK and their outcomes are vastly different.  Looking at graduation rates (more meaningful than dropout rates, but closely related), Iowa graduates 89%.  OK graduates about 78%.  That is huge!!  We are failing for some (or several) reasons for over 20% of our kids! 

KS is running about 85% grad rate (2013)....


We need help.  There are good examples out there to study!!

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 19, 2014, 10:48:17 PM

Texas was a bad example....as always.  About most things.....

KS is at $12,700. And even in 2010, they were at $12,200....slightly higher than that site.
http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/SpendingPerPupil/tabid/1271/Default.aspx

There is 10 - 15% difference that can only be part of the story.  That is the difference between getting books and not.  The parents must be another big part. 

Iowa is another one that spends just a little bit more than OK and their outcomes are vastly different.  Looking at graduation rates (more meaningful than dropout rates, but closely related), Iowa graduates 89%.  OK graduates about 78%.  That is huge!!  We are failing for some (or several) reasons for over 20% of our kids! 

KS is running about 85% grad rate (2013)....


We need help.  There are good examples out there to study!!

Even at just under $10k, that is $250,000 per classroom, we are only giving the teacher about 40k of that, maybe account for 10k for air conditioning and maintenance. Where does the other 200 go? The facilities are bought under different funding.

It just so happens than the current amount of Oklahoma per student spend is almost identical to the rate at Riverfield, a very successful local private school. They somehow manage to graduate children, and they don't have bond money to pay for capital costs.

Again, what I would like to see with these school comparisons is schools that have a similar number of "students with english as a second language, students in poverty, etc.".  Or at least see how "similar students" compare in each school.

Quote from: sgrizzle on May 20, 2014, 06:43:30 AM
Even at just under $10k, that is $250,000 per classroom, we are only giving the teacher about 40k of that, maybe account for 10k for air conditioning and maintenance. Where does the other 200 go? The facilities are bought under different funding.

It just so happens than the current amount of Oklahoma per student spend is almost identical to the rate at Riverfield, a very successful local private school. They somehow manage to graduate children, and they don't have bond money to pay for capital costs.

A big chunk of it goes to high schools buying new stadiums....


Tremendously great question - one I have asked myself a lot!  It is in there somewhere, and I just can't see why there are not new books when needed.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 19, 2014, 10:48:17 PM

Texas was a bad example....as always.  About most things.....

KS is at $12,700. And even in 2010, they were at $12,200....slightly higher than that site.
http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/SpendingPerPupil/tabid/1271/Default.aspx

There is 10 - 15% difference that can only be part of the story.  That is the difference between getting books and not.  The parents must be another big part. 

Iowa is another one that spends just a little bit more than OK and their outcomes are vastly different.  Looking at graduation rates (more meaningful than dropout rates, but closely related), Iowa graduates 89%.  OK graduates about 78%.  That is huge!!  We are failing for some (or several) reasons for over 20% of our kids! 

KS is running about 85% grad rate (2013)....


We need help.  There are good examples out there to study!!

Compelling stats, but are there different laws for compulsory attendance through a certain age?  Is home schooling higher in Oklahoma and that's not accounted for?  Are the requirements for graduation lower in those states?  Higher or lower percentage of Hispanic students who may or may not have assimilation/language issues?

Those are important metrics to have to really get an understanding of what the spending vs. graduation rate really means.

I'd surmise drop out rates likely have more to do with peer group and family influence than lack of spending per pupil.  Two things which could have an impact is Oklahoma ranks high in meth use and teen pregnancy.  If the student or parents are spaced out, they don't care whether or not the student graduates. 

Sorry to be skeptical, but I've always found the "throw more money at a problem" approach to be a lazy way of dealing with it and it seldom reaches to the core of the real issue.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2014, 09:06:43 AM
Compelling stats, but are there different laws for compulsory attendance through a certain age?  Is home schooling higher in Oklahoma and that's not accounted for?  Are the requirements for graduation lower in those states?  Higher or lower percentage of Hispanic students who may or may not have assimilation/language issues?

Those are important metrics to have to really get an understanding of what the spending vs. graduation rate really means.

I'd surmise drop out rates likely have more to do with peer group and family influence than lack of spending per pupil.  Two things which could have an impact is Oklahoma ranks high in meth use and teen pregnancy.  If the student or parents are spaced out, they don't care whether or not the student graduates.  

Sorry to be skeptical, but I've always found the "throw more money at a problem" approach to be a lazy way of dealing with it and it seldom reaches to the core of the real issue.

I have direct personal experience with Iowa.  When I returned to OK from a 4 year stint in the Iowa public schools, I got to "coast" for two full years.

And about 1/3 of the family (and it's a big family) with direct personal experience with Iowa and Missouri.  All of whom have gone through the public school systems - successfully.  And been better prepared coming out the high school door than the corresponding Okie...

Am seeing similar trends with friends and one family member who are now in Minnesota and Wisconsin - input limited to just the last 3 years, but there seems to be a similar disparity.  As much as I hate winter, I probably should have taken the herd north many years ago to get the education!


More money alone is not the only solution - it does get you into the same ballpark - you can buy books!!  And arts funding - remember how we have been gutting the study of the arts in recent years?  Well, actually, at every opportunity for decades.....

And as I have mentioned - why do we not study/investigate/learn from other states.  The end result seems to be an intellectual inbreeding that keeps us in our stagnant ways.  And this is absolutely obvious in the governor and legislature right now!  It is an insular, isolationist mind set that demonizes outside ideas/thought and keeps us from learning from our mistakes and making better progress than what we should.

Sometimes we just get it so right, it makes ya wanna jump for joy....I heard this on radio and have read it online.  We have a jewel in Tulsa that others out of state are looking at.  Why can't Oklahoma go look at out of state programs that are working well and bring them here??  Not just pre-school....

http://www.npr.org/2014/04/22/305907705/whos-getting-preschool-right-researchers-point-to-tulsa




I would love to be able to be a "fly-on-the-wall" just to see how many go to this link, and then how many more go to page 2 and read the whole story....THAT would be an education in itself!!

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 20, 2014, 08:56:00 AM

A big chunk of it goes to high schools buying new stadiums....


Tremendously great question - one I have asked myself a lot!  It is in there somewhere, and I just can't see why there are not new books when needed.

Perhaps the question needs to be asked differently. Lets look at what textbooks cost.  When districts make decisions on books, the publishers are shielded from competition and that allows the entire industry to bring prices to unrealistic market levels.  The same quality book under any other title sold in a bookstore would fetch a fraction of the price.  The guaranteed volume of a district or state contract should bring the price down even further, but there is no competitive pressure so the profit margin remains thousands of times higher than the cost to research, write, publish and distribute these books.

Holt McDougal Larson Algebra 1 Common Core - $96
Holt McDougal Geometry - $110.50 (used)
Pearson Algebra 2 - $90.27
Paragon English Comp - $87.49
Holt McDougal Mathematics Student Edition Grade 6 - $69.20

I doubt text books will be around much longer.  Most private schools have gone to electronic tablets and more interactive learning, however the publishers are aware of this and have already figured out ways to publish their works in apps that cost hundreds of dollars to license. 

Looking at Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, the company that publishes most of the public school text books, we find some interesting comparisons to the business services sector as a whole.

(http://www.nasdaq.com/charts/HMHC_eg.jpeg)

and P/E growth
(http://www.nasdaq.com/charts/HMHC_PE.jpeg)

So, perhaps it's not that the schools cannot afford books, it's just that they can't afford these books?

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 09:35:24 AM
Perhaps the question needs to be asked differently. Lets look at what textbooks cost.  When districts make decisions on books, the publishers are shielded from competition and that allows the entire industry to bring prices to unrealistic market levels.  The same quality book under any other title sold in a bookstore would fetch a fraction of the price.  The guaranteed volume of a district or state contract should bring the price down even further, but there is no competitive pressure so the profit margin remains thousands of times higher than the cost to research, write, publish and distribute these books.

Holt McDougal Larson Algebra 1 Common Core - $96
Holt McDougal Geometry - $110.50 (used)
Pearson Algebra 2 - $90.27
Paragon English Comp - $87.49
Holt McDougal Mathematics Student Edition Grade 6 - $69.20

I doubt text books will be around much longer.  Most private schools have gone to electronic tablets and more interactive learning, however the publishers are aware of this and have already figured out ways to publish their works in apps that cost hundreds of dollars to license. 

Looking at Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, the company that publishes most of the public school text books, we find some interesting comparisons to the business services sector as a whole.

(http://www.nasdaq.com/charts/HMHC_eg.jpeg)

and P/E growth
(http://www.nasdaq.com/charts/HMHC_PE.jpeg)

So, perhaps it's not that the schools cannot afford books, it's just that they can't afford these books?

Just one of many areas where an independent "look" is warranted - schools are a huge bureaucracy and like ODOT, the turnpike authority, the county commission system, the state legislature - ALL need oversight and corrective action.  Won't happen as long as we keep electing the same batch of clowns there today.  But we loves our Failin', Kern, Shannon, Inhofe, etc....

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 20, 2014, 09:40:42 AM

Just one of many areas where an independent "look" is warranted - schools are a huge bureaucracy and like ODOT, the turnpike authority, the county commission system, the state legislature - ALL need oversight and corrective action.  Won't happen as long as we keep electing the same batch of clowns there today.  But we loves our Failin', Kern, Shannon, Inhofe, etc....

We have been "reforming" public schools since the 1800s. 
What if. . .

Schools, public and private had to compete for students?
What if they had to compete on quality of education?
What if they had to compete for the best teachers?
What if parents were given a "golden ticket" that would allow them to choose the best school (public or private) for their kids?

I know.  Pipe-dream.

Reform on!

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 09:52:06 AM
We have been "reforming" public schools since the 1800s. 
What if. . .

Schools, public and private had to compete for students?
What if they had to compete on quality of education?
What if they had to compete for the best teachers?
What if parents were given a "golden ticket" that would allow them to choose the best school (public or private) for their kids?

I know.  Pipe-dream.

Reform on!

Everything, private or government must always reform.  Change or die.  The world changes, demographics change, technology changes, expectations change, and if your organization doesn't change, you will fail. 

Even if you created the perfect school that was churning out perfect students today, the world, and your student's would change and if that perfect school did not change it's methods, technology, etc. it would surely no longer be perfect.

Quote from: TheArtist on May 20, 2014, 01:27:58 PM
Everything, private or government must always reform.  Change or die.  The world changes, demographics change, technology changes, expectations change, and if your organization doesn't change, you will fail.  

Even if you created the perfect school that was churning out perfect students today, the world, and your student's would change and if that perfect school did not change it's methods, technology, etc. it would surely no longer be perfect.

Not interchangeable.

There is a difference between reform and innovation.  Innovation is proactive, reform is a reaction to failure.

Private institutions (schools, businesses, whatever) must innovate to survive.  They must compete in an open system.  They have to produce a better product or they die.

Public institutions should do the same, but most are shielded from competition.  As a result, they continue to exist far beyond the point of failure.  They are propped up through public funding, until things become so ridiculously absurd that "reform" is the only option.  Reform is always a result of failure, corruption, or other malfeasance.

Politicians love reform, because it offers an opportunity to point a finger at the other guy, but as long as there is no competitive pressure, their work will eventually be fodder for another politicians future reforms.

Look at what happens when we create charter schools, voucher systems, and magnet programs.  We give schools the freedom to innovate, and compete with programs that rival, and in many cases exceed the private offerings. We reduce the need to reform through the simple act of liberating educators, not throwing more money at the problems.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 09:52:06 AM
We have been "reforming" public schools since the 1800s.  
What if. . .

Schools, public and private had to compete for students?
What if they had to compete on quality of education?
What if they had to compete for the best teachers?
What if parents were given a "golden ticket" that would allow them to choose the best school (public or private) for their kids?

I know.  Pipe-dream.

Reform on!

I know you keep getting tripped up on some of those pesky little details, but they are important, not just to the student, but to society as a whole!   As I said before, if the private schools are required to take - and keep - all comers, then it might work!  Will never work without - THAT is the pipe dream!

The sheepherders are being exposed. Turns out of the 30% of public school students who failed the reading test, 46.8% of them were special needs kids taking regular ed tests. Factor out failures by locale and English as second language and the schools look pretty good.

I am familiar with both subsets of students. If your goal is to make public schools look bad this would do the trick.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 20, 2014, 03:45:33 PM

I know you keep getting tripped up on some of those pesky little details, but they are important, not just to the student, but to society as a whole!   As I said before, if the private schools are required to take - and keep - all comers, then it might work!  Will never work without - THAT is the pipe dream!

That's the whole point in them being PRIVATE.  They are exempt from some regulations that have a tendency to hobble the educational experience in PUBLIC schools.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 02:42:37 PM
Not interchangeable.

There is a difference between reform and innovation.  Innovation is proactive, reform is a reaction to failure.

Private institutions (schools, businesses, whatever) must innovate to survive.  They must compete in an open system.  They have to produce a better product or they die.

Public institutions should do the same, but most are shielded from competition.  As a result, they continue to exist far beyond the point of failure.  They are propped up through public funding, until things become so ridiculously absurd that "reform" is the only option.  Reform is always a result of failure, corruption, or other malfeasance.

Politicians love reform, because it offers an opportunity to point a finger at the other guy, but as long as there is no competitive pressure, their work will eventually be fodder for another politicians future reforms.

Look at what happens when we create charter schools, voucher systems, and magnet programs.  We give schools the freedom to innovate, and compete with programs that rival, and in many cases exceed the private offerings. We reduce the need to reform through the simple act of liberating educators, not throwing more money at the problems.

I don't even know where to start with all that inane dribble and mischaracterization of what has been said.  But for starters, if you think that private companies or private schools all succeed and even exist beyond the point of failure, and don't need reform, don't offer the opportunity for someone to point the finger at the other guy and be fodder for anothers "future reforms"... well you must live on a different planet than the rest of us.  Sears/K-Mart anyone?

Another thing, I am not against charter schools, voucher systems, or magnet programs, but anytime someone mentions that there may need to be smaller class sizes or perhaps more help for students with english as a second language the responses come back immediately as if the person was advocating for "MORE SPENDING!!!!!" "GOVERNMENT IS THE ONLY SOLUTION!!!!".  Never said that.  When people reply to those types of comments with that type of response it sounds like they are coming from a position of rote Ideology (if you don't agree with me exactly and in every way any deviation means you are completely the other extreme and this is what you mean" period. and not coming from a place where there is room for honest discussion and learning and you sound utterly moronic.  

Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2014, 04:33:15 PM
That's the whole point in them being PRIVATE.  They are exempt from some regulations that have a tendency to hobble the educational experience in PUBLIC schools.

And those differences that accrue due to the separation is what is causing a huge amount of trouble now....that will only get worse.

Here is an article in the BBC today about US maths education and has states ranked compared to other countries in the world per "Maths".

"US in denial over poor maths standards"

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27442541

Quote from: TheArtist on May 20, 2014, 09:15:04 PM
Here is an article in the BBC today about US maths education and has states ranked compared to other countries in the world per "Maths".

"US in denial over poor maths standards"

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27442541

Proper business names are plural on that side of the pond. ie. "Google are buying Twitch"

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 20, 2014, 07:32:13 PM

And those differences that accrue due to the separation is what is causing a huge amount of trouble now....that will only get worse.

I don't think my private school education is leading to the erosion of society. 

Nor do I think my daughters with public school educations were short-changed with $8000/year spending or whatever.  From purely socio-economic and family participation issues, failure of either child was a very, very small possibility, regardless what was allocated on their education.  They always seemed to have teachers who were very engaged and interested in the education process.  As well, they were in a peer group with very high parental interest and participation.

I am really surprised at the uproar over Fallin's Veto. 

For far too many years teachers and parents have been shuffling through way to many students who should have been held back, (or schools have not been teaching up to snuff, for whatever reason, yet still have been moving students on who are not ready). 

I do not get why people are so upset over the idea of students being held back.  I was held back in first grade, and by the time I was an adult I could see that my school life would have been much easier and happier if I had been held back even a second year before middle and high school.  I know other students, and perhaps you do as well, who also should have been held back and were not.  That happens far more often than there are students held back who should not have been. Which side is it better to err on? 

Yes there are certain special needs students who should not be held back for they may never read, for instance, above a 3rd or 4th grade level, but those students would fall under one of the available exemptions. 

You mean the exemptions in the legislation that was vetoed?

If the opinions of teachers, administrators and reading specialists are of less value than the states ideologue leader then why do we listen to other experts in engineering and health?

The delicious irony. The outrageous hypocrisy. Folks who don't want intrusion by the state or feds in their lives are willing to yield the destinies of their offspring to party idealogues without a whimper.

A $60 million high school stadium?  Serious?

Talk about mis-placed financial priorities.

QuoteNation's most expensive prep football stadium closes two years after its built

Allen (Texas) High officially closed its new $60 million stadium for the fall season due to unsafe conditions at the nation's most expensive high school football stadium, according to The Dallas Morning News.

As previously discussed on Prep Rally, the discovery of cracking concrete on the concourse level of the state-of-the-art facility shut down Eagle Stadium in February. According to the paper, an engineering analysis is expected to be completed in June and has already revealed structural issues in the stadium.

"The stadium is not safe for public assembly," Allen suprintendent Lance Hindt told the Morning News.

The nation's most expensive high school athletic facility at a taxpayer cost of $60 million, Eagle Stadium opened in August 2012 to national fanfare. Around the same time, Allen officials had already discovered cracks in the concrete, notifying design firm PBK Architects and building company Pogue Construction.

While PBK and Pogue executives originally cited "normal concrete shrinkage" and estimated repair costs at $1 million, according to the Morning News, an early Nelson Forensics report detailed structural flaws and building code violations that could eventually require completely rebuilding the affected areas.

"Once a repair solution has been agreed upon, PBK and Pogue Construction will implement the repair at no cost to the district," PBK wrote in a statement to The Dallas Morning News on Monday. "At the end of the day, our goal is to provide the taxpayers of Allen exactly what they paid for."

Meanwhile, Allen officials had orginially hoped the two-time defending state champion Eagles would be able to return to the football field this fall, but they and any fans who hoped to fill the building's 18,000 seats will have to travel to neighboring Plano for home games this fall — at a cost of $5,300 per game for Allen ISD.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/nation-s-most-expensive-prep-football-stadium-closes-two-years-after-its-built-220058771.html

Stillwater High has one of these mini pro fields as well.  Don't get me wrong, I believe high school athletics is an important part of the educational experience, but kids don't need a Taj Mahal to play in.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 21, 2014, 07:56:41 AM
You mean the exemptions in the legislation that was vetoed?

If the opinions of teachers, administrators and reading specialists are of less value than the states ideologue leader then why do we listen to other experts in engineering and health?

I can see the frustrations and failures on both sides.  When the "opinions of teachers, administrators and reading specialists" have in the past been shunting through so many children that should not have been moved up to the next grade and have suffered academically because of it....

I remember a kid that sat next to me in my senior high school english class that could barely read.  He graduated.  He shouldn't have even been in my class, period.  There were likely others as well.  Really nice guy, but the teachers, administrators, parents, etc.  "failed him" by shuffling him up the system year after year when he should not have been.  They failed me by not holding me back another year as they should have before high school as well. This was back in the 80s.  And I know danged well they do the same thing today. It's easier to push them on to the next grade and make it someone else's problem.

Quote from: TheArtist on May 21, 2014, 10:22:59 AM
I can see the frustrations and failures on both sides.  When the "opinions of teachers, administrators and reading specialists" have in the past been shunting through so many children that should not have been moved up to the next grade and have suffered academically because of it....

I remember a kid that sat next to me in my senior high school english class that could barely read.  He graduated.  He shouldn't have even been in my class, period.  There were likely others as well.  Really nice guy, but the teachers, administrators, parents, etc.  "failed him" by shuffling him up the system year after year when he should not have been.  They failed me by not holding me back another year as they should have before high school as well. This was back in the 80s.  And I know danged well they do the same thing today. It's easier to push them on to the next grade and make it someone else's problem.

I excelled at English, History, Social Studies, etc. because those were areas I was really interested in and I loved to read.  I really suffered with math and advanced sciences like chemistry and physics.  It literally took me three tries to get through Algebra I and only then because I took a really intense tutoring program along with my third try as a Junior (there were 8th graders in my class, I felt like Jethro Bodean).  I also finally had an instructor (the tutor) who seemed to understand whatever cognitive issue I had in getting algebraic concepts.  I breezed pretty easily through geometry in summer school prior to my senior year as I could not risk not getting my second math credit needed for graduation.  Cascia Hall required you take math all four years so I suffered through Algebra II/Trig as a senior but actually managed to eke out a C for the class somehow.

College accounting courses were a snap.  College algebra was a biznitch.

Turns out, I figured out the problem later on in life from career and hobby pursuits.  I apparently am a very kinetic learner.  If I can see something or picture it, I can learn how to do it.  If it's a series of problems on a page, it almost looks blurry to me.  I have the same problem when I first look at a wiring blueprint but if I slow down and simply look point-to-point or I understand what the sequence of wiring is supposed to do, I settle down, relax, and it all makes sense.

Racing cars and flying airplanes taught me more about physics and geometry than I ever learned in class.  Managing and owning businesses as well as doing all sorts of calculations in my current career have taught me more about algebraic concepts than I ever learned in school. 

Unfortunately, there simply is not a Tom Thiel (my algebra tutor) for every Conan71 that's out there.  Whether it was a personal connection that clicked, his understanding of my struggle, or what, I will never really know.  He was beyond bright and I'd had instructors like that before who were simply too hard for me to follow.  They had their field of study so down pat, they had a difficult time communicating it to slower learners in the field like myself.

I suspect many "poor learners" aren't stupid by any means.  Rather they can be quite high-functioning, they simply are not being reached in a way they can relate.  I credit the years my daughters spent in a Montessori program prior to moving on to public schools for a lot of their later academic success because they had guides who took the time to understand a child's weaknesses and strengths and they helped them learn in a way that would best appeal to them at their own pace.  I believe an approach like that for kids who are struggling could be worth implementing in public schools.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 21, 2014, 11:10:07 AMI credit the years my daughters spent in a Montessori program prior to moving on to public schools for a lot of their later academic success because they had guides who took the time to understand a child's weaknesses and strengths and they helped them learn in a way that would best appeal to them at their own pace.  I believe an approach like that for kids who are struggling could be worth implementing in public schools.

Problem is that most parents freak out when their kid is the one that decides they'd rather wash the dishes than learn what they're supposed to be there to learn. A couple of weeks later, everybody is adjusted and all is well, but a lot of parents don't keep their kid there long enough to see what it's really about.

Quote from: nathanm on May 21, 2014, 11:42:57 AM
Problem is that most parents freak out when their kid is the one that decides they'd rather wash the dishes than learn what they're supposed to be there to learn. A couple of weeks later, everybody is adjusted and all is well, but a lot of parents don't keep their kid there long enough to see what it's really about.

You definitely need to have strong parent buy in.  At least at Undercroft, the guides tended to be on the more liberal side which would be a turn-off to uptight fundies.  That didn't seem to have an impact on either of my kids, they both are to the right of me on the political scale.

They would allow prospective parents to sit in so they got an idea how the structure worked and were really good at explaining to us up front what to expect.  The only reason we pulled them out is they started taking gymnastics at Jenks so it kind of made sense from a cash-flow and logistical POV to move closer, buy a larger house, and enroll them at Jenks. 

Quote from: Conan71 on May 21, 2014, 12:03:21 PM
You definitely need to have strong parent buy in.  At least at Undercroft, the guides tended to be on the more liberal side which would be a turn-off to uptight fundies.  That didn't seem to have an impact on either of my kids, they both are to the right of me on the political scale.

They would allow prospective parents to sit in so they got an idea how the structure worked and were really good at explaining to us up front what to expect.  The only reason we pulled them out is they started taking gymnastics at Jenks so it kind of made sense from a cash-flow and logistical POV to move closer, buy a larger house, and enroll them at Jenks. 

Both of my sister's kids go there and they love it. Both boys (4th and 6th grade I believe) are so far advanced compared to their public school counterparts that it's not even funny. Great program.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 21, 2014, 02:00:02 PM
Both of my sister's kids go there and they love it. Both boys (4th and 6th grade I believe) are so far advanced compared to their public school counterparts that it's not even funny. Great program.

They will have great survival skills when they move on.  The scary part for us when my daughters moved on to Jenks was that Undercroft was sort of a sheltered environment and we didn't know what to expect.  Fortunately, they both went to Jenks SE where there was very, very high parental participation at the time and they had great teachers as well.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 21, 2014, 11:10:07 AM
I excelled at English, History, Social Studies, etc. because those were areas I was really interested in and I loved to read.

I was just the opposite.  I did well in math and science.  I did OK in English, History, and Social Studies but they were a chore for me.  I actually kind of liked reading about history but puking up dates and names of events on a test were like math was to Artist.  I liked to read until the school started telling me I should be reading "good literature".  I didn't care for a lot of it, especially the assigned summer reading.

My SAT English scores were good enough to skip the first semester grammar course at college pending at least a C in the first semester literature course.  I did OK so I took two literature courses.  Several of us Engineering students got B's so we signed up for the same Prof for the 2nd semester of literature.  I took a history course in college pass/fail as an elective.  The Grad Student TA and I disagreed on whether I was using enough historical facts in my test essays.  I was passing but not doing great.  I  promised that I wouldn't take the final exam (optional) if he would guarantee a pass on my report card.  He agreed. Most of my college semesters were 18 hours so I was busy with Engineering stuff.

I almost forgot..  I had to go to summer school after 5th grade to get to 6th grade.  I had to take creative writing.  Blech!

Governor vetoed giving teachers and parents control over their child's education.  Of course the legislature overruled her veto. 

She has proven to be a worthless statist.

The House over rode the governor. As of yesterday the Senate had not. I guess they're feeling a bit testy with each other.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 22, 2014, 10:36:18 AM
The House over rode the governor. As of yesterday the Senate had not. I guess they're feeling a bit testy with each other.

The senate voted and overrode it within minutes of the house vote?

Yeah. Just saw that. Fast work for such slow minds!

Fallin thinks they all just reinforced a failed system. Isn't that our way? Statist indeed.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 22, 2014, 11:03:03 AM
Yeah. Just saw that. Fast work for such slow minds people  feeling a bit testy with each other!

Fallin thinks they all just reinforced a failed system. Isn't that our way? Statist indeed.

Makes more sense.

You must have a higher opinion of the state legislature than I do. Occasionally they surprise me but for the most part, I think that the skills, mentality and guts necessary to get them in their positions aren't the ones needed to manage the state's business. They are too easily swayed by the ideology of the money that got them there. Not the people, the money.

House and Senate vote to end common core in Oklahoma.  Fallin signing off on it doesn't appear to be a slam dunk:

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY — Concerns about federal overreach, frustration with the state Department of Education, United Nations conspiracies, Bill Gates and Hillary Clinton trumped Oklahoma's Common Core standards in the Legislature on Friday, the last day of the 2014 legislative session.
With about a dozen anti-Common Core activists in the visitors' gallery, the House voted 71-18 to end the state's brief experiment with national academic standards for K-12.

The bill then passed 31-10 in the Senate. To become law, it still would have to get the signature of Gov. Mary Fallin, which is no sure thing. Because the Legislature adjourned Friday, she could let the bill die by taking no action.

Fallin said she had not seen the legislation but said she will review it over the next several days with input from parents and educators.

"I certainly have heard the concerns about people worried about federal intrusion," Fallin said.

Common Core occupied the House for about two hours on an unusually uneventful last day of the session. A bill that would put additional restrictions on abortion clinics, left to third from last, went through 60-8 after having set off considerable fireworks earlier in the session.

House Bill 3399, which replaces the national Common Core standards with what likely will be similar ones developed by the state, was originally authored by Speaker Jeff Hickman, R-Fairview, but was carried in its final form by Rep. Jason Nelson, R-Oklahoma City, and Sen. Josh Brecheen, R-Coalgate.

Opponents of the measure warned of the potential for dire consequences, primarily in the form of federal intervention into most of the state's schools. Repealing Common Core could cause the state to lose its waiver from the No Child Left Behind program, which in turn could cause schools to lose control of about $27 million in federal aid and state or federal takeover of hundreds of Oklahoma schools.

Nelson agreed that it is possible and perhaps likely that the state will lose its waiver, but he said, "I don't think it will be as bad as (others) think it is.

"To say we have local control right now (because of the waiver) is an illusion," Nelson continued. "Today is a day we can begin to get it back."

Rep. John Bennett, R-Sallisaw, said Common Core was "getting its claws" into Oklahoma's children in order to indoctrinate them in a U.N.-led agenda of "a sustainable world without borders."

God, he said, "is being replaced in our schools by Darwin and Marx."

"Common Core is the most dangerous Trojan Horse ever brought to our gates," Bennett said.

"Don't let the federal government come in and spoil our children and turn them into little drones," he urged.

On the Senate side, Brecheen quoted some sexually explicit passages from a Toni Morrison novel and implied that it would be required reading for all Oklahoma school students if Common Core remained in place.

Most of the rhetoric, though, was more reserved, with opponents saying rejecting Common Core would be the first step toward weaning Oklahoma public education from federal aid.

Rep. Todd Thomsen, R-Ada, said Common Core is "politically dead," and he blamed the state Department of Education, which he said had alienated parents at a time it needed to be winning their trust.

"My trust level is at an all-time low," Thomsen said. "I'm voting no because I'm cutting ties with Common Core, not because anyone in the gallery asked me. I don't trust them, either."

Rep. Emily Virgin, D-Norman, said she was "flabbergasted by the misinformation on this subject. I understand not thinking these standards are inappropriate. ... (But) this is not a federal conspiracy."

Rep. Sally Kern, R-Oklahoma City, begged to differ. Speaking next, she said Friday's vote was a "battle for the hearts and minds of our children," and she proceeded to read from a letter she said was sent to Hillary Clinton in 1992 and which she said proved that Common Core is a federal conspiracy.

The letter described something it called a "national human resources system."

Rep. Jerry McPeak, D-Warner, said he was one of 12 members to vote against Common Core when it was first approved by the Legislature in 2010 but that he was voting to keep it now because of the uncertainty HB 3399 would create and because educators need to be left alone to do their jobs.

He also ridiculed those who said they want to refuse federal money.

"Forty percent of our state budget is federal money," he said. "What are you going to do? Send it back?"

Among those critical of the bill was Tulsa Regional Chamber President Mike Neal, who urged Fallin to veto it.

"By reversing three years of work by Oklahoma's educators to implement Common Core State Standards, HB 3399 represents a costly step backward — not just for students and teachers, but for taxpayers, who would foot the bill for the additional time and work needed to create and implement new standards," he said in a statement.

Other bills: The House rejected two bills late in the day, one that would have made it easier for municipally owned utilities to collect delinquent bills and another that would have required child-care centers to carry a certain level of liability insurance. It was the second-straight year the latter bill has failed on the final day of session.

The House did approve Senate Bill 1848, which places additional requirements on abortion clinics and gives the board of health responsibility for licensing and inspections.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage1/repeal-of-common-core-standards-sent-to-governor/article_ea3ad9b1-cdac-5c7c-8057-df65b650898b.html

Quote from: Conan71 on May 27, 2014, 09:19:08 AM
Rep. John Bennett, R-Sallisaw, said Common Core was "getting its claws" into Oklahoma's children in order to indoctrinate them in a U.N.-led agenda...
God, he said, "is being replaced in our schools by Darwin and Marx."
"Don't let the federal government come in and spoil our children and turn them into little drones," he urged.

Must not interfere with the school-to-prison pipeline... they are job creators, after all...   ::)

Quote from: patric on May 27, 2014, 09:54:04 AM
Must not interfere with the school-to-prison pipeline... they are job creators, after all...   ::)

I think the educational opportunities are probably better in prison.

Of course "The Kern" had to weigh in:

QuoteRep. Emily Virgin, D-Norman, said she was "flabbergasted by the misinformation on this subject. I understand not thinking these standards are inappropriate. ... (But) this is not a federal conspiracy."

Rep. Sally Kern, R-Oklahoma City, begged to differ. Speaking next, she said Friday's vote was a "battle for the hearts and minds of our children," and she proceeded to read from a letter she said was sent to Hillary Clinton in 1992 and which she said proved that Common Core is a federal conspiracy.

The letter described something it called a "national human resources system."

Someday we'll stop electing people that think Alex Jones' paranoid rants have any basis in reality.

Somewhat related I had the "pleasure" to hear Janet Barrisi speak yesterday at a function at TU. She read her maybe five minute speech from a paper that she obviously didn't write and didn't even bother to read beforehand and that had little to do with the event for 7th grade and younger kids. The point of the speech to middle school students seemed to be what job opportunities there are in Oklahoma and that kids should major in STEM. I'm not sure she really knew what STEM means.

A lot of those middle school kids and parents were from Jenks where Barrisi is in open warfare with Rob Miller, the Jenks Middle School principal and is running for reelection against  Joy Hofmeister, a former Jenks Schools Foundation board member. To say she got a chilly response was an understatement. With all the people around me laughing at her weak speech I was a bit afraid she was going to be boo'd when she finished. To add fuel to the crowd she was late and caused the whole event to be delayed. She weakly blamed it on car trouble.

Quote from: swake on May 29, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
To add fuel to the crowd she was late and caused the whole event to be delayed. She weakly blamed it on car trouble.

Actually her mechanic was quite efficient, it just took a while for her to figure out the bill with common core.

$645 Labor
$234 Parts

So

|645| - |40| - |5| = 600
        ^        ^
|234| - |30| - |4| = |200|
        ^        ^
|600| + |200| = |800|
         ^
|30| + |40| = |70|
        ^
|5| + |4| = |9|
     ^
|800| + |70| + |9| = |879|

Subtotal = $879
Tax = 8.517% x $879
|.1| x |900| = |90|
      ^
|.02| x |900| = |18|
        ^
|.008| x |900| = |7.2|
          ^
|90| + |18| + |7.2| = |100| + |10| + |5| + |.2|
       ^         ^                     ^        ^       ^
(|100| + |10| + |5| + |.2|) - (|20| + |1|) =|90| + |4| + |.2|
                                        ^
(|90| + |4| + |.2|) - (|10| + |9| + |.3| + |.03| + |.006|) = $74.87
                       
Total =
|800| + |70| + |70| = |940|
         ^         ^
|9| + |4| = |13|
     ^
|.80| + |.07| = |87|
Total Due = 953.87

Quote from: nathanm on May 29, 2014, 11:53:11 AM
Someday we'll stop electing people that think Alex Jones' paranoid rants have any basis in reality.

No.   We won't.

GOP Legislator Calls for Barresi's Resignation

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201210/Janet_Barresi_2.png)

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/gop-legislator-calls-barresis-resignation (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/gop-legislator-calls-barresis-resignation)

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — A freshman Republican legislator from Stroud is calling for State Superintendent Janet Barresi and two top-level education officials to step down after the department announced the hiring of a new assistant superintendent.

Representative Jason Smalley issued a statement Wednesday calling for resignations from Barresi, new assistant superintendent Larry Birney and the department's general counsel Kim Richey, who is married to Birney. He also wants a hiring and firing freeze at the Department of Education.

Smalley referred to Birney as a "good ol' boy hire."

Department spokesman Phil Bacharach says Birney is well qualified for the $90,000 a year position, with a background in law enforcement and a doctorate in education.

Bacharach says the three officials have no plans to resign and said Smalley's comments were "grandstanding, with all due respect."

Oklahoma School Officials Frustrated with Changes

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/oklahoma-school-officials-frustrated-changes (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/oklahoma-school-officials-frustrated-changes)

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Oklahoma school administrators remain frustrated by the Legislature's decision to repeal rigorous Common Core academic standards for public school students weeks before they were to go into effect.

Their frustration intensified when federal officials denied Oklahoma the authority to decide how to spend millions of federal education dollars. Federal officials said Oklahoma could not demonstrate its current standards help students become college- and-career-ready.

State education officials now plan to conduct a series of town hall meetings statewide to allay the concerns of parents, educators and others.

Oklahoma Education Association President Linda Hampton says the turmoil reflects management of the state's public schools by politicians instead of teachers who know what's best for students.

Some legislators say Common Core gave too much power to the federal government.