On behalf of someone, I'm coming to ask you "know it alls" a question concerning a condo dispute (owned), which occurred two months ago.
Some facts. In mid July, the owner downstairs was changing his a/c filter for the first time (new owner), and noticed that his "shed" which is attached to his bedroom on the outside, was wet, moldy, and the ceiling of such shed had practically caved in, exposing insulation and dry wall was covered with mold.
He left a note for the upstairs owner informing her that her unit was leaking down to his property.
Both individuals contacted their insurance, and both received responses saying that ongoing leaks/mold was not covered.
So...doesn't this still make the upstairs owner responsible for the damage? She's looking at it this way...I was not at fault, and my adjuster said it's not covered, so it's the person downstair to deal with this issue.
After some "neighborly" pressure, she agreed to have a contractor come out to see the damage, but she asked the downstairs owner to contact contractors for the best price.
Quotes were given from Andy on Call to a Restoration company and the ballpark figure was around $6K. Each contractor said it was not just the drywall, and that it was significant damage. A couple said they didn't even want the job, because they're not qualified to deal with mold, but did say it was significant.
Another contractor was called in, his name given by the condo manager, and his quote was around $3,500. The lady upstairs was sent the quote (her place caused damaged to other property), but she's been heeing and hawing, lying and trying to get away from handling this.
Someone suggested going to channel 8 with the story. Is there any legal problem with the fellow downstairs, whose property was damaged, mentioning his neighbor's name and giving details about the damage? I know he could go to a lawyer, but he's a student/new home owner and doesn't have a big income.
If your friend can prove that damage occurred and that the upstairs neighbor is responsible, then the neighbor should pay the invoice. Insurance has nothing to do with it.
File a claim in court.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on September 24, 2013, 02:27:50 PM
If your friend can prove that damage occurred and that the upstairs neighbor is responsible, then the neighbor should pay the invoice. Insurance has nothing to do with it.
File a claim in court.
Actually, if he sues the upstairs neighbor, I believe her homeowner's insurance liability could be roped in on this. I need to ask the family expert on this one.
If this person was changing an air conditioner filter, I have to ask if the shed was built under another air conditioner without proper protection from a known water dripping source.
And most important of all...never buy a condo!!
You all brought up some good points, especially about buying a condo! But sometimes one cannot afford a house.
Anyway, the point about how one unit could leak and cause major damage to a shed and part of the condo is something I'm especially passing on. That's something I have passed on for a contractor to look at.
Thanks. Any other ideas or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 24, 2013, 05:22:35 PM
If this person was changing an air conditioner filter, I have to ask if the shed was built under another air conditioner without proper protection from a known water dripping source.
Known water source? The lady's a/c upstairs was leaking down on the shed, and must have been going on for months, or even all through last year. The new owner moved in downstairs in early January, so a/c wasn't running then. He had to get to his a/c's filter via the shed. Good point though. I wonder how the heck her leak was able to cause the entire ceiling of the shed to almost cave in. It's pretty bad. I offered to go and take photos as proof. Might swing by tomorrow. This is at shadow Mountain. Not the best place to be living, that's for sure.
The female (upstairs), works at a bank and the male (downstairs) is working and going to school. He can't afford to fork out money to fix this when it's clearly her responsibility. People can be so bloody selfish and evil.
What I wonder about is his going to the media, and how much he can tell them about the owner upstairs. Don't know if she can turn around and sue for slander. Anyone can recommend a lawyer? Do they take cases like this without a huge retaining fee i.e. make a case, and if they win, they take a percentage? That would work better for him.
Quote from: HoneySuckle on September 24, 2013, 11:11:25 PM
Known water source? The lady's a/c upstairs was leaking down on the shed, and must have been going on for months, or even all through last year.
Air conditioners condense water out of the air. It has to go somewhere. Do the condo rules require routing the condensate somewhere in particular? Did this outside shed have any kind of shingles on its roof? Are air conditioners allowed directly above someone else's porch, deck....? The fact that an air conditioner drips water does not surprise me.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 24, 2013, 04:21:39 PM
Actually, if he sues the upstairs neighbor, I believe her homeowner's insurance liability could be roped in on this. I need to ask the family expert on this one.
Now is that different from her regular home owner's policy? They told her that they do not cover a long standing leak. Do you mean if there is a lawsuit, they would have to cover it?
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 24, 2013, 11:22:53 PM
Air conditioners condense water out of the air. It has to go somewhere. Do the condo rules require routing the condensate somewhere in particular? Did this outside shed have any kind of shingles on its roof? Are air conditioners allowed directly above someone else's porch, deck....? The fact that an air conditioner drips water does not surprise me.
I'm going by tomorrow to check out the state of the shed and see if there are shingles. I think the lad is getting another contractor to go out there and I've told him to pose these questions to see what comes of it. Most of the other contractors focused on the damage inside the shed and his bedroom.
I have forgotten how to upload a photo here. Can't I upload from my computer, or must I use photobucket?
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/shadowmountain_zps62d63048.jpg[/img]](http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/shadowmountain_zps62d63048.jpg) (ftp://[img)
Okay, found this random shadow mountain unit. The door all the way to the right side of the pic is what we called the shed. It's not like the regular shed. It's a tiny storage area. Wall is back of the bedroom, so the damp/moist conditions have seeped into the bedroom, thus one wall of drywall has to be replaced.
Her unit is above this storage shed. Not sure what's between hers upstairs and his. The fact that it seeped down and caused such damage to his ceiling in the shed, where all the insulation has rotted, is really weird. Should there have been a barrier of some sort between the two units? I'm trying to see if Shadow Mountain themselves are also liable.
Quote from: HoneySuckle on September 24, 2013, 11:35:17 PM
I have forgotten how to upload a photo here. Can't I upload from my computer, or must I use photobucket?
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/shadowmountain_zps62d63048.jpg[/img]](http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/shadowmountain_zps62d63048.jpg) (ftp://[img)
Okay, found this random shadow mountain unit. The door all the way to the right side of the pic is what we called the shed. It's not like the regular shed. It's a tiny storage area. Wall is back of the bedroom, so the damp/moist conditions have seeped into the bedroom, thus one wall of drywall has to be replaced.
Her unit is above this storage shed. Not sure what's between hers upstairs and his. The fact that it seeped down and caused such damage to his ceiling in the shed, where all the insulation has rotted, is really weird. Should there have been a barrier of some sort between the two units? I'm trying to see if Shadow Mountain themselves are also liable.
Okay, the shed is not what I was thinking it was. It appears it is part of the original building structure. Is that correct? I was thinking of a separate structure like a lean-to or tool shed adjacent to the unit. If that had been the case and someone had constructed a shed under the drainage pipe outlet for a neighbor's air conditioner condensate, the person who erected the shed in such a place would clearly have been negligent in locating a shed in such a place. However that does not seem to be the issue.
Usually AC condensate drain piping is PVC. If that piping had developed a leak due to cracks or a loose fitting it might be hard to prove negligence on the part of the homeowner. If she recently had her AC replaced and the contractor was negligent in the installation and did not glue a fitting it could even fall back on their insurance. Speaking of insurance, if your friend were to sue the neighbor upstairs and won, it's possible the liability portion that is in every owner-occupied homeowner's policy will have to pay up if the insured can't pay the judgement.
"Shadow Mountain Condominiums" is likely nothing more than a homeowners association (HOA) which has common areas, but the structures are sub-divided amongst the owners. I don't see liability there.
Best advice is contact an attorney, there's a couple of very competent ones on the forum, PM me if you need personal contact info for either.
Normally the association is responsible for exterior maintenance.......
Might be similar to a neighbors tree causing damage on your property...
QuoteThe rule is this. If the tree falls due to an act of God, i.e. bad weather caused an otherwise healthy looking tree to fall, then everyone pays for their own damage.
If the tree was dead or or fell due to some reason the guy who owns the tree neglected to fix, then he must pay for all damage.
I don't think the leak was an act of God ( 2011 earthquake?? )
Perhaps freezing pipes would be an act of God??
It definitely sounds like a maintenance issue -> neighbor pays
The evaporator coil (cold air section) will have a drip pan that will have a pipe coming out of it to go outside. Many times dirt/mold/grunge can plug up that drain pipe at just about any point along the way. That must be cleaned out. It also means that drip pan is overflowing and running down inside her equipment, so there may be much bigger problems in the upstairs unit that she has not detected. Near the equipment closet there may be wet carpet, or "soft" spots in the floor where the plywood deck has rotted, too. This could be just as big an issue for her.
Housing built to "low bid" standards....cheap materials, lousy construction methods, corners cut at every opportunity...sounds like an Home Creations event.
Thanks. I'm betting this woman never had her unit serviced since she bought the condo. She's adamant that if her insurance says it's not covered (continuous leak), then she's not at fault. Amazing how these people think.
And yes, the bloody neighbor hasn't done a thing about the tree. It keeps tilting toward the house every year...sigh.
I'm concerned about this young man because he in school part-time, working (no where as good a job as she has), and cannot afford to pay for something that wasn't his fault.
Go ahead and send me PMs on lawyers on the board or lawyers you have used/know personally. The witch has got to be made to pay.
Quote from: HoneySuckle on September 25, 2013, 10:53:36 PM
I'm betting this woman never had her unit serviced...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxuCeHUxoBY
Quote from: HoneySuckle on September 24, 2013, 02:02:33 PM
Some facts. In mid July, the owner downstairs was changing his a/c filter for the first time (new owner),
This question has nothing to do with getting the problem fixed but I am curious. Did this person not have the place inspected before
buying it?
Quote from: HoneySuckle on September 25, 2013, 10:53:36 PM
Thanks. I'm betting this woman never had her unit serviced since she bought the condo. She's adamant that if her insurance says it's not covered (continuous leak), then she's not at fault. Amazing how these people think.
Do I understand this right - she is stupid enough to think that if preventive maintenance isn't covered by insurance, then it doesn't need to be done?
Quote from: guido911 on September 26, 2013, 02:41:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxuCeHUxoBY
No way I'm clicking that link at work.
Quote from: swake on September 27, 2013, 12:15:14 PM
No way I'm clicking that link at work.
IT looking over your shoulder too?
Quote from: swake on September 27, 2013, 12:15:14 PM
No way I'm clicking that link at work.
It's just Guid's standard 3 second Beavis & Butthead laugh.
Quote from: Hoss on September 27, 2013, 12:57:41 PM
It's just Guid's standard 3 second Beavis & Butthead laugh.
well that's lame
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 26, 2013, 07:39:51 AM
This question has nothing to do with getting the problem fixed but I am curious. Did this person not have the place inspected before buying it?
There wasn't a problem with leaking in December ;)
Happened in early July when the AC was running constantly.
Quote from: HoneySuckle on October 21, 2013, 04:16:02 PM
There wasn't a problem with leaking in December ;)
Happened in early July when the AC was running constantly.
That's when all the moisture on the evaporator coils condenses and runs off to somewhere that it is supposed to drain. That drain is either plugged or the connection 'broken' open and not allowing drainage.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 21, 2013, 08:58:49 PM
That's when all the moisture on the evaporator coils condenses and runs off to somewhere that it is supposed to drain. That drain is either plugged or the connection 'broken' open and not allowing drainage.
Which means that the owner was not having the unit maintained? Or would a company have seen this before?
Quote from: HoneySuckle on October 28, 2013, 06:06:09 PM
Which means that the owner was not having the unit maintained? Or would a company have seen this before?
Possibly. Probably. "Things" can plug the drain pipe that comes out of the evaporator drain pan and make it overflow, spreading water in sometimes very surprising places/directions. These things can include dust/dirt/mold that form on the coils and is dislodged, or can form in the drain pan and pipe causing a backup. A good annual service should take care of that kind of stuff, plus much more. All the A/C guys advertise a yearly service and many people think it's just a gimmick, but if done correctly, it can make a BIG difference in operation costs and comfort in the space.
My neighbor moved in and about 2 years later, came over saying the A/C wasn't cooling and did I know anything about it? I said no, of course - never let anyone know anything I can do.... But suspected the condensor, 'cause it had slowly stopped working. Went to look at it and there was a 'mat' about 2" thick formed over the coils. I peeled it off like a carpet, told her to wash the coil...showed her how to do that...and amazingly, things started working again.
Maintenance is mandatory on this stuff. Many people only get 10 years or so out of their A/C stuff. Mine is at 38 and while it has a tiny leak, it still works well, but I will probably replace it this winter. Sooo wanted to get an even 40 out of it!!
I finally got actual photos of the damage to the area housing the A/C unit. The owner upstairs has ignored the letter documenting what has happened since the discovery, and basically she seems to think she's not responsible. There seems to be some fishy business going on with her insurance adjuster. Everytime the young man in question contacts her, she leaves a note saying that he needs to contact her insurance adjuster, but he was told twice that the claim was CLOSED. Me thinks she's using him as a sort of bouncer, and that he's a friend of the family's. I don't understand some people. I wonder how the hell she sleeps at night.
Damage to wall and carpeting in bedroom:
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadownmtn8_zpse9b81fe1.jpg)
Noted moisture damage:
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadownmtn10_zpse128abd7.jpg)
Inside "storage area"":
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadownmtn6_zpsd39cd10a.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadownmtn7_zpsa1e05298.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadownmtn7_zpsa1e05298.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadownmtn4_zpsad96ee5a.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadownmtn4_zpsad96ee5a.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadownmtn3_zps4973d839.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadowmtn5_zpsbfe5d45c.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/SHADOWMTN1_zpsc42b3024.jpg)
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/LaMariposita/Easter/shadowmtn3_zpse05a4d6d.jpg)
This should give a better idea than my description. The young man believes that the owner and the condo manager both know that he's learning disabled, and they're all giving him the run around. Surely there is something that can be done? He looks like an average person, but when he speaks, you can pick up that he has difficulty expressing himself, so people tend to dismiss him or push him around. Where the hell is KARMA when we need her????
Quote from: HoneySuckle on November 07, 2013, 09:10:28 PM
I finally got actual photos of the damage to the area housing the A/C unit. The owner upstairs has ignored the letter documenting what has happened since the discovery, and basically she seems to think she's not responsible. There seems to be some fishy business going on with her insurance adjuster. Everytime the young man in question contacts her, she leaves a note saying that he needs to contact her insurance adjuster, but he was told twice that the claim was CLOSED. Me thinks she's using him as a sort of bouncer, and that he's a friend of the family's. I don't understand some people. I wonder how the hell she sleeps at night.
And NONE of this damage was visible to a professional inspector before the condo transferred title?
The people upstairs have shown they won't do what they should. Will have to go to court. Unless he can turn it over to his insurance company and then get them to go after the upstairs insurance company to subrogate (sp?? usage??) the claim. His pays to fix it, then goes after the other person's insurance to get the money back.
Since it is water related, his might (probably will) try to claim flood, so he may just be out of luck.
The dark stains are some serious mold starting up there. If it were mine, I would at least get a plastic spray bottle with 1 cup of clorox per gallon and spray it on the stains to try to keep the mold under some control... at least keep it from spreading or getting worse at that spot.... Spray all the dark stains on the sheet rock, and all that exposed wood - studs and plywood, everything. It will dry quickly and won't do any more damage than the water that has already been there.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 07, 2013, 09:58:05 PM
The people upstairs have shown they won't do what they should. Will have to go to court. Unless he can turn it over to his insurance company and then get them to go after the upstairs insurance company to subrogate (sp?? usage??) the claim. His pays to fix it, then goes after the other person's insurance to get the money back.
Since it is water related, his might (probably will) try to claim flood, so he may just be out of luck.
The dark stains are some serious mold starting up there. If it were mine, I would at least get a plastic spray bottle with 1 cup of clorox per gallon and spray it on the stains to try to keep the mold under some control... at least keep it from spreading or getting worse at that spot.... Spray all the dark stains on the sheet rock, and all that exposed wood - studs and plywood, everything. It will dry quickly and won't do any more damage than the water that has already been there.
Thanks for the tip on the mold control. His insurance won't cover this because it didn't start at his place, and apparently, if it happened suddenly, that's different. Her insurance (the woman upstairs), said that it was long term damage so case closed.
Won't help the water/mold...but
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Fv98jttYA
Quote from: HoneySuckle on November 07, 2013, 09:10:28 PM
I finally got actual photos of the damage to the area housing the A/C unit. The owner upstairs has ignored the letter documenting what has happened since the discovery, and basically she seems to think she's not responsible. There seems to be some fishy business going on with her insurance adjuster. Everytime the young man in question contacts her, she leaves a note saying that he needs to contact her insurance adjuster, but he was told twice that the claim was CLOSED. Me thinks she's using him as a sort of bouncer, and that he's a friend of the family's. I don't understand some people. I wonder how the hell she sleeps at night.
This should give a better idea than my description. The young man believes that the owner and the condo manager both know that he's learning disabled, and they're all giving him the run around. Surely there is something that can be done? He looks like an average person, but when he speaks, you can pick up that he has difficulty expressing himself, so people tend to dismiss him or push him around. Where the hell is KARMA when we need her????
Lawyer up.
I know he needs a lawyer, but all of his savings went into purchasing this condo, and he's working and in school part time. What are his options? Are there any law firms that would handle a case like this where they get paid if he wins the suit, but he doesn't have to pay a retainer fee? ??? I've never had to sue anyone (YET), so I'm clueless about lawyers.
Quote from: HoneySuckle on November 08, 2013, 10:29:57 AM
I know he needs a lawyer, but all of his savings went into purchasing this condo, and he's working and in school part time. What are his options? Are there any law firms that would handle a case like this where they get paid if he wins the suit, but he doesn't have to pay a retainer fee? ??? I've never had to sue anyone (YET), so I'm clueless about lawyers.
Many firms will handle cases on a contingency basis but it also depends on how likely they think they are to get a settlement.
Quote from: HoneySuckle on November 08, 2013, 10:29:57 AM
I know he needs a lawyer, but all of his savings went into purchasing this condo, and he's working and in school part time.
Don't know about any of the local schools, but many around the country have legal aid programs for students. If not, they may be able to provide a referral to someone appropriate. There are attorneys out there who are flexible on payment arrangements, but this doesn't seem likely to be something anybody is going to take on contingency.
Update: The young man found a lawyer who "might" take his case. Photos were given to her and she was surprised at the extent of damage. One contractor said that there is no telling what they will find behind the obvious mold and damage, so fixing it might run anywhere from $6K to $10K, since the A/C could have problems as well.
Wretched creature that lives above him has ignored his certified letter documenting everything, and continues to go her merry way. I am beginning to wonder about Karma...seems some people get away with being wretched creatures ::)
Quote from: HoneySuckle on December 06, 2013, 09:56:32 AM
Update: The young man found a lawyer who "might" take his case. Photos were given to her and she was surprised at the extent of damage. One contractor said that there is no telling what they will find behind the obvious mold and damage, so fixing it might run anywhere from $6K to $10K, since the A/C could have problems as well.
Wretched creature that lives above him has ignored his certified letter documenting everything, and continues to go her merry way. I am beginning to wonder about Karma...seems some people get away with being wretched creatures ::)
Only need to know two things to be a plumber....sh$t runs downhill, and payday is Friday. The one above obviously understands the first part, so until some of that comes back up to her, she has no problem... That's what a lawyer does for the guy - makes sh$t run uphill...
There are actually 3 things a plumber should nkow...the last being don't bite your finger nails!
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 09, 2013, 01:17:29 PM
There are actually 3 things a plumber should nkow...the last being don't bite your finger nails!
As well as cold is on the right hot is on the left.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 09, 2013, 01:19:44 PM
As well as cold is on the right hot is on the left.
Sometimes....
Finally, the young man found a lawyer who is willing to work with him, and indeed, he HAS a case! Woo hoo.
I've been helping with advice, photos and keeping track of conversations and incidents etc.
Plus, he had yet another bloody leak by another owner, and their insurance said they're not paying. What the hell is up with insurance companies in Tulsa???
The first one said the damage was from ongoing leaks, and they don't cover ongoing which is baloney. This one happened because of water heater, and was found within a day, and they said that someone was in the condo so technically they could have stopped it! pancakes?
BOGUS companies of course, with stupid names that no one probably ever heard of.
Quote from: HoneySuckle on January 31, 2014, 06:31:14 PM
Plus, he had yet another bloody leak by another owner, and their insurance said they're not paying. What the hell is up with insurance companies in Tulsa???
The first one said the damage was from ongoing leaks, and they don't cover ongoing which is baloney. This one happened because of water heater, and was found within a day, and they said that someone was in the condo so technically they could have stopped it! pancakes?
BOGUS companies of course, with stupid names that no one probably ever heard of.
It's the standard operating procedure of an insurance company. Every time. No matter what. How do you think they get so rich - well besides us bailing them out, since they, like banks are too big to fail... And the "stock" companies are even worse than the mutual companies....