The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Just saw this story, and not sure if it has been covered here before.

QuoteTulsa, Oklahoma -

The Brady Arts District has grown considerably with the opening of several restaurants, businesses and most recently the Woody Guthrie Center. However, some Tulsa residents are pushing to rename the area due to the controversial history of a Tulsa Founder.

Tate Brady, a founder of the City of Tulsa, was reportedly a member of the Ku Klux Klan. According to one Tulsan, Brady was responsible for much of the Tulsa Race Riots in 1921.

"Tate Brady was responsible for the division," Tulsa resident Kristi Williams said. "Let's name it the reconciliation district so we can say this is about coming together, not keeping separate."

[Emphasis added]. http://www.ktul.com/story/22136683/tulsa-residents-push-to-rename-the-brady-district

I prefer to rename it, "just another area of downtown district"

I just tell people it was named for Marcia and Greg Brady.

"North of the tracks district"

Seems to be a race related thing.

Quote from: Quinton on May 03, 2013, 11:11:25 PM
Seems to be a race related thing.

Thank you Mr. Obvious!

Can someone teach me to spell "rename"?

Quote from: Quinton on May 03, 2013, 11:11:25 PM
Seems to be a race related thing.

You've earned this:

(http://tekstovi-pesama.com/g_img2/0/d/137867/duh-9.jpeg)

 Guthrie Arts District

The Brady Arts District has spent a lot of time and money on their identity and it has great value. When someone wants to pay for all the costs incurred in renaming, then have at it.

This has been covered in previous threads here. And it was part of a series of stories in a local monthly newspaper.

My take is that if we have to go back and scrub off the graffiti of previous generations' work in building this city because of their political or societal views that don't match the current generation, we're going to have to totally rename large portions of the city and perhaps even its name.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 04, 2013, 10:53:47 AM
This has been covered in previous threads here. And it was part of a series of stories in a local monthly newspaper.

My take is that if we have to go back and scrub off the graffiti of previous generations' work in building this city because of their political or societal views that don't match the current generation, we're going to have to totally rename large portions of the city and perhaps even its name.

I'm not sure that completely whitewashing the past is the correct path either. You can't read about Tate Brady without being sickened. I think the whole length of Brady Street should be renamed John Hope Franklin Blvd (Give Haskell it's name back) with a monument in the former Brady District explaining the name change and that along with being a city father, Tate Brady was truly evil man that should not be celebrated. I like the Guthrie Arts District as well.

We also need to finish the John Hope Franklin Museum by 1921, and the park and museum needs a National Monument or Park designation. The past is ugly, but that does not mean it needs to be ignored and forgotten.

I understand that sentiment. The truth is he was representative of leadership in that era. The Klan was immensely popular at that time as many people were not aware it had become racist at its core. It lost membership quickly. He was a typical businessman of that time who is now being judged by a different generation.

Do we want to look back in 80 years to find that many of our current leaders were perhaps sexist, ageist, anti-gay, anti immigration, tea partiers, Birchers, NRA activists, sovereign citizens, jews for Jesus etc and decide we must scrub them from our public memory because we now find such views abhorrent?

I value honest history even if it offends. To ignore our progenitors weaknesses is to give them power. Washington and Jefferson had slaves yet we name our schools after them because of their good works. If we now decide to erase Brady's presence, we must not look much farther or we'll find other evil history that must be judged.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 04, 2013, 12:38:36 PM
I understand that sentiment. The truth is he was representative of leadership in that era. The Klan was immensely popular at that time as many people were not aware it had become racist at its core. It lost membership quickly. He was a typical businessman of that time who is now being judged by a different generation.

Do we want to look back in 80 years to find that many of our current leaders were perhaps sexist, ageist, anti-gay, anti immigration, tea partiers, Birchers, NRA activists, sovereign citizens, jews for Jesus etc and decide we must scrub them from our public memory because we now find such views abhorrent?

I value honest history even if it offends. To ignore our progenitors weaknesses is to give them power. Washington and Jefferson had slaves yet we name our schools after them because of their good works. If we now decide to erase Brady's presence, we must not look much farther or we'll find other evil history that must be judged.

Amen to that.
As far as Brady being KKK, the Klan wasn't even interested in Tulsa until after the riot, and it had already been disbanded at least once before (by N. B. Forrest himself) for becoming so radicalized.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 04, 2013, 12:38:36 PM
I understand that sentiment. The truth is he was representative of leadership in that era. The Klan was immensely popular at that time as many people were not aware it had become racist at its core.

It was always racist at its core. Are you kidding me?

Read this:
http://thislandpress.com/04/18/2012/tate-brady-battle-greenwood/

Quote from: AngieBrumley on May 04, 2013, 10:12:08 AM
The Brady Arts District has spent a lot of time and money on their identity and it has great value.

And how damn pathetic is that? What is it, a 3-4 block area? It's not freakin Soho or Tribeca, or even "Bricktown" for that matter. Sorry, still giddy at the pretentiousness and uppity-ness  of these "districts" from the other thread.

Quote from: swake on May 04, 2013, 02:23:25 PM
It was always racist at its core. Are you kidding me?

Read this:
http://thislandpress.com/04/18/2012/tate-brady-battle-greenwood/

Not kidding anyone. Already read that series when it came out. It was originally a fraternity type association that was similar to college fraternal organizations. Like many associations, it was co-opted and misused. It came out of the South I believe and peaked around 1920 wherein it began to disintegrate as its members fought among themselves and the government took interest.


It seems odd to me that people believe we have no obligation to make reparations for the race riot because it was another time, another group of citizens far removed from us so we have no direct responsibility today. Yet, they seem to think it has relevance to what the area is called today?

Anyway, why would you care? You don't care much for that area having any defining label at all from what you've written.

Note added 6:18pm. Apparently a quick check with Wikipedia, in whom I give some credibility but much doubt, there were three incarnations of the Klan. The second one peaked in the 1920's and was organized as a fraternal organization. I do believe many people mistakenly joined the organization because of its overt political chauvinism, its business relationships and its insistence on pure morality. Once they found out what it really was its membership dropped rapidly. By 1930 it was practically gone.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 04, 2013, 03:22:58 PM
Not kidding anyone. Already read that series when it came out. It was originally a fraternity type association that was similar to college fraternal organizations. Like many associations, it was co-opted and misused. It came out of the South I believe and peaked around 1920 wherein it began to disintegrate as its members fought among themselves and the government took interest.

It was started as a joke Greek fraternity by three lawyers in Tennessee during reconstruction.
The "secret society" aspect became useful to people trying to cope with the corruption that invariably comes with being on the wrong side of an occupation, and in it's original form, the organization assisted displaced civilians, including freed slaves.  
Now, it wasnt exactly the Red Cross, nor were there any pretense about equality (the focus had always been white supremacy in some form or another).  It was an underground network more concerned with finding food and jobs than any sort of political agenda, but it didnt stay that way.

Not long after Confederate General Forrest was brought on board as a celebrity endorser, he was given the reins of command -- and promptly ordered it disbanded to halt the escalating violence, intimidation, and the Klan "being perverted from its original honorable and patriotic purposes, becoming injurious instead of subservient to the public peace".

Paraphrasing an old Pablo Cruise song, Hate Will Find a Way, and the KKK was reborn in 1920's Atlanta to promote right-wing nationalism.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 04, 2013, 03:22:58 PM

It seems odd to me that people believe we have no obligation to make reparations for the race riot because it was another time, another group of citizens far removed from us so we have no direct responsibility today. Yet, they seem to think it has relevance to what the area is called today?

What exactly are appropriate reparations in this case, now 92 years later?  Is it a monetary award to every living descendant? Is it renaming the entire area after it's ultimately successful push for an identity for the last 30 years?  Will anything ever be enough?

At what point do we pull the arrow out and simply heal?  Why the obsession with perpetuating the darkest days in Tulsa history?

Every ethnic group, and every race has been oppressed at one time or another.  Where do we draw the line at recognizing the worst of history and thinking everyone or someone in particular is owed something for the sins of the past?

Sometimes all you can do as a reparation is to not repeat the mistakes of the past.

I don't think this is about reparations. It is about not honoring a man who was involved in some awful things.

I feel the same way about Andrew Jackson on the twenty dollar bill. He committed genocide on Americans, but nobody talks about it because it happen long ago.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 04, 2013, 11:59:30 PM
I don't think this is about reparations. It is about not honoring a man who was involved in some awful things.

I feel the same way about Andrew Jackson on the twenty dollar bill. He committed genocide on Americans, but nobody talks about it because it happen long ago.

Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson should never be honored

Quote from: Conan71 on May 04, 2013, 11:19:32 PM
What exactly are appropriate reparations in this case, now 92 years later?  Is it a monetary award to every living descendant? Is it renaming the entire area after it's ultimately successful push for an identity for the last 30 years?  Will anything ever be enough?

At what point do we pull the arrow out and simply heal?  Why the obsession with perpetuating the darkest days in Tulsa history?

Every ethnic group, and every race has been oppressed at one time or another.  Where do we draw the line at recognizing the worst of history and thinking everyone or someone in particular is owed something for the sins of the past?

Sometimes all you can do as a reparation is to not repeat the mistakes of the past.

I'm not convinced reparations are in order. They may be deserved but there were lots of injustices to Native Americans, Irish and women as well. We have to move on and make note of the history and how it came about. A memorial is suitable. I just think its dis-ingenuous to oppose reparations because of the time elapsed yet find merit in changing place names related to people long gone. My son went to Lee school named after Robert E Lee and their team name was the Rebels.  Must we scrub it all clean?

Quote from: AquaMan on May 04, 2013, 10:53:47 AM
This has been covered in previous threads here. And it was part of a series of stories in a local monthly newspaper.

My take is that if we have to go back and scrub off the graffiti of previous generations' work in building this city because of their political or societal views that don't match the current generation, we're going to have to totally rename large portions of the city and perhaps even its name.

Yeah, go back and scrub it all away. Go back and scrub away the bigotry and hatred. Scrub away the reality, the truth about the hatred, biased political views, the corruption, the alienation and the segregation, the battle of classes, the battle of religion, the battle of human rights, the class struggle that has ruled Tulsa. The mediocrity, the I know I'm successful screw the rest. Let's pave over what we don't like, and the rest can kiss my a$$. Sorry if you are not Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Unitarian,  Lutheran, Christian, Pentecostal, Foursquare, it's going to be hard to scrub anything from the past.

Quote from: Callahan on May 05, 2013, 05:27:56 AM
Yeah, go back and scrub it all away. Go back and scrub away the bigotry and hatred. Scrub away the reality, the truth about the hatred, biased political views, the corruption, the alienation and the segregation, the battle of classes, the battle of religion, the battle of human rights, the class struggle that has ruled Tulsa. The mediocrity, the I know I'm successful screw the rest. Let's pave over what we don't like, and the rest can kiss my a$$. Sorry if you are not Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Unitarian,  Lutheran, Christian, Pentecostal, Foursquare, it's going to be hard to scrub anything from the past.

You seem to be describing your present view of the city as much as the city's past. Or perhaps both.

Lighten up just a bit.  All of what you describe is here if you look for it and I have seen it first hand, but Tulsa is no different than the rest of America. We are subject to human frailties of greed, avarice, egotism, pride, racism and religious chauvinism. In fact I often tell folks we have the best liars, cheats, chiselers and thieves in the world!

But we are also capable of the reverse of all those traits. They are there if you look for them. Tulsa has high rates of charitable giving, a long record of service to the disadvantaged, viewed as leaders outside the city in effecting ecumenical harmony and has made real efforts to ensure political fairness. Its far better here than it was just 20 years ago and another world from when I grew up here in the 50's. Our conservatism is legendary and imo stifling but there are pockets of progressives struggling to keep the ship from tipping and its like oasis when you find them.

Let me share a story that happened to me this week. I came home after work to find a young man lurking in the azalea bushes across the street where a house sits for sale. I parked the car and tried to figure out what his story was. We sometimes have people walk thru the hood with mental or emotional problems. They are generally harmless. That wasn't the case here. I saw him using his phone and realized he held the collar of a large dog in his other hand. I approached him and he told me the bloodied dog had been hit by a truck nearby where a pool is being installed. I suspected the dog was my neighbors dog who had a sketchy history of aggressiveness towards everyone. Once you got past her defensiveness she is a truly lovely lab mix. This young man took it upon himself to let the dog lead him to its home, then called his girlfriends parents who lived nearby. The parents got information from me about the owners who were out of town. They even went back to where the dog was hit and found her tags. We looked up an emergency vet, called the owners and loaded the bloody dog into their little SUV and took her there. Several other neighbors became involved as well.

The dog will lose an eye and has a broken jaw. The owners gushed with appreciation for strangers caring for a member of their family. No one spoke out loud about the potential cost of vet service, of cleaning the blood off their clothes and upholstery. No one called the police about a stranger lurking in the bushes or pulled a gun on him. No one held the dogs past history against her either. People just did the right thing and no one thought much of it.

The players involved were from varied segments of the city; Educators, atheists, agnostics, Unitarians, Catholics, a Lutheran, young, old, poor, professional, blue collar, conservative and liberal, all white and all animal owners. None of that came up. I savor the incident.

You're probably too angry to see the other side of Tulsa right now. I hope it finds you.

So many Tulsans have toiled for decades to create a brand and build a vibrant downtown arts district and now some want to confuse people and kill the surging momentum by starting over by renaming it (too bad "The Rose District" is now taken).  To most Tulsans, The Brady District simply shares a name with the street and the theater – not to honor a racist man from a bygone era. 

If it's morality you want to argue, then we have lots of things named after Presidents, generals and others who owned slaves and/or fought to preserve slavery as a viable institution..  Those deeds were well known, yet their names continue adorning our money and buildings.

Henry Ford held some vile views, but the foundation that bears his name now supports liberal causes.  Highways, airports, stadiums and schools are named for various Kennedys, yet we continue to learn of deep and troubling flaws within their character.  For that matter, Dr. Martin Luther King may have plagiarized part of his doctorial thesis and engaged in extramarital affairs, yet scarcely a town in this country doesn't have a highway, school or more named for him and a new memorial in D.C was recently dedicated.

Where do we draw the line and who decides what part of history gets scrubbed clean for our modern sensibilities and what stays?

Well said DTowner.  Our community recently changed Cincinnati to MLK Ave, so we have an MLK memorial that runs along the border of the Brady District.  Interesting.

As far as the name change, if there is a groundswell of support from the stakeholders in the area to change the name then so be it.  I wouldn't campaign against it, but I would consider it a waste of time and resources.  Too many needs in our community that can actually help healing and bring citizens out of poverty to waste resources on a re-branding that seems to be coming from a minority group of well-to-do midtowners.

All we need are some cans of spray paint

The BRADY ARTS DISTRICT

I am in no way a fan of the name "the brady district".  While Tulsa would not be without Brady, what would have Tulsa become without his negative influence before, during and after the race riots.  You cannot separate the man and his actions.  He was vehimently against the success of blacks within Tulsa and actively blocked the attempts to rebuild Greenwood.  You want to name a street after him because he is the father of Tulsa, okay.  But having an arts district carrying his name is, in a way, a celebration of him.  You have a rich arts history in Tulsa that could be drawn from... Guthrie arts district, Cains Arts District, Wills Arts district, hell call it the Hanson Arts District... at least these were positive influences on Tulsa (though Hanson could be debated lol, but after seeing the crowds on Friday, they still seem to be pretty dang popular)

This is not about political correctedness.  It is about removing a negative connotation from an area that is full of creativity and is becoming a destination for nightly activities.  Is it going to bring the city together to sing cumbayah?  Nope.  Is it going to solve the nation debt crisis?  no.  Is it good karma? yeah. 

Lee Roy Chapman is credited with "extensive" research for his article which appeared in This Land Press which is what seems to have stirred the bucket. 

http://thislandpress.com/04/18/2012/tate-brady-battle-greenwood/?page_num=1

Looking at the footnotes, one must draw their own conclusions about what the Ku Klux Klan and Sons of Confederate Veterans were or believe the author's ideas about what either of those societies represented or believed at the time.  One other item which has been ignored is that Tate Brady eventually renounced his membership in the Klan.  Even Brady's alleged participation in the race riots is somewhat murky in the article and at best, not extensively documented by very many sources.

QuoteBack then, the Sons of Confederate Veterans wasn't merely a benign Civil War re-enactment club, as it is so often portrayed in today's media. One of its organizing principles was, and remains, "the emulation of [the Confederate veteran's] virtues, and the perpetuation of those principles he loved."

As the largest gathering of Confederate veterans since the Civil war (more than 40,000 attended), the 1918 Tulsa convention celebrated Southern nostalgia and ideologies. Tulsa leaders banded together to raise over $100,000 to cover the cost of the event. Reunion visitors were treated to the best of Tulsa's marvels: tours to the oil fields, free trolley tickets, and lodging with modern-day heated quarters. Although Tate Brady was the primary organizer of the reunion, its committee members included judges, ministers, and influential names that are still widely recognized in Tulsa: R. M. McFarlin, S. R. Lewis, Earl P. Harwell, Charles Page, W. A. Vandever, Eugene Lorton, and J. H. McBirney.

It sounds as if many prominent Tulsans of the day would be labeled as evil racists as well based on these associations.  Perhaps we should re-name the McFarlin Library on the TU campus, Harweldon, Charles Page Boulevard, Lortondale neighborhood, Lewis Avenue, and for good measure never call the McBirney mansion by that name ever again. 

Quote from: Conan71 on May 07, 2013, 03:39:18 PM
Lee Roy Chapman is credited with "extensive" research for his article which appeared in This Land Press which is what seems to have stirred the bucket. 

http://thislandpress.com/04/18/2012/tate-brady-battle-greenwood/?page_num=1

Looking at the footnotes, one must draw their own conclusions about what the Ku Klux Klan and Sons of Confederate Veterans were or believe the author's ideas about what either of those societies represented or believed at the time.  One other item which has been ignored is that Tate Brady eventually renounced his membership in the Klan.  Even Brady's alleged participation in the race riots is somewhat murky in the article and at best, not extensively documented by very many sources.

It sounds as if many prominent Tulsans of the day would be labeled as evil racists as well based on these associations.  Perhaps we should re-name the McFarlin Library on the TU campus, Harweldon, Charles Page Boulevard, Lortondale neighborhood, Lewis Avenue, and for good measure never call the McBirney mansion by that name ever again. 

Freakin "Lortondale"? Why is that place in this thread.... ducking, donning Kevlar.

Quote from: guido911 on May 07, 2013, 03:52:13 PM
Freakin "Lortondale"? Why is that place in this thread.... ducking, donning Kevlar.

Kevlar won't help when you are run over by a bicycle.

Quote from: DTowner on May 06, 2013, 12:16:46 PM
So many Tulsans have toiled for decades to create a brand and build a vibrant downtown arts district and now some want to confuse people and kill the surging momentum by starting over by renaming it (too bad "The Rose District" is now taken).  To most Tulsans, The Brady District simply shares a name with the street and the theater – not to honor a racist man from a bygone era. 

If it's morality you want to argue, then we have lots of things named after Presidents, generals and others who owned slaves and/or fought to preserve slavery as a viable institution..  Those deeds were well known, yet their names continue adorning our money and buildings.

Henry Ford held some vile views, but the foundation that bears his name now supports liberal causes.  Highways, airports, stadiums and schools are named for various Kennedys, yet we continue to learn of deep and troubling flaws within their character.  For that matter, Dr. Martin Luther King may have plagiarized part of his doctorial thesis and engaged in extramarital affairs, yet scarcely a town in this country doesn't have a highway, school or more named for him and a new memorial in D.C was recently dedicated.

Where do we draw the line and who decides what part of history gets scrubbed clean for our modern sensibilities and what stays?

Amen, brother.

Quote from: guido911 on May 07, 2013, 03:52:13 PM
Freakin "Lortondale"? Why is that place in this thread.... ducking, donning Kevlar.

That's "Lortondale District" to you Guido.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 07, 2013, 04:06:15 PM
That's "Lortondale District" to you Guido.

Shut the thread down, Conan wins.

Quote from: DTowner on May 06, 2013, 12:16:46 PM
So many Tulsans have toiled for decades to create a brand and build a vibrant downtown arts district and now some want to confuse people and kill the surging momentum by starting over by renaming it (too bad "The Rose District" is now taken).  To most Tulsans, The Brady District simply shares a name with the street and the theater – not to honor a racist man from a bygone era. 

If it's morality you want to argue, then we have lots of things named after Presidents, generals and others who owned slaves and/or fought to preserve slavery as a viable institution..  Those deeds were well known, yet their names continue adorning our money and buildings.

Henry Ford held some vile views, but the foundation that bears his name now supports liberal causes.  Highways, airports, stadiums and schools are named for various Kennedys, yet we continue to learn of deep and troubling flaws within their character.  For that matter, Dr. Martin Luther King may have plagiarized part of his doctorial thesis and engaged in extramarital affairs, yet scarcely a town in this country doesn't have a highway, school or more named for him and a new memorial in D.C was recently dedicated.

Where do we draw the line and who decides what part of history gets scrubbed clean for our modern sensibilities and what stays?

I should have read your post more thoroughly to begin with.  This is the most reasonable arguement I have read.  I cannot argue about the issue of slavery other than to say that in that time it was what was believed and trusted.  Slavery and the forced relocation of the native americans are the top two items on a long list of things we completely screwed up on in our history.  Hindsight is 20/20 and there are things done today that are considered commonplace that I am sure will be considered outragous and taboo 100 years from now...

As for deep and troubling flaws in their character... I think it is one thing to say that MLK may have plagarized and slept around (again, commonly accepted during that time... or that is what Mad Men has tought me) and the list of Kennedy issues is as long as liam niesons you know what...  Those are completely different than a person who actively participated in the race riots and afterword did everything he could to prevent the rebuilding of Greenwood...  After all "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" 

Quote from: davideinstein on May 07, 2013, 03:56:56 PM
Amen, brother.

Completely agree.  We all have our history.  Some is great, some is not so great.  New article from This Land:
http://thislandpress.com/05/08/2013/diamond-in-the-rough/
Great read and one thing I take from it; yes, conservative, right wing Tulsa has a dark secret in it's past, but guess what?  So does progressive, liberal Portland.  Sadly, it was the times.

Leave the name Brady District and if nothing else, use it to educate and avoid repeating that time in the cities history.

There's enough "maybe", "perhaps", and "possibly" in that article and the one last year purporting Tate Brady to be an evil racist you could drown in it.  It's essay, not hard news.

Many of Tulsa's early civic leaders were members of the same societies Brady was, that was the culture then.  Most of us who post here were raised in the post-CRA era so we were brought up with much more different views in terms of race.

I went to Lee Roy Chapman's FB page for the first time today, seems his sole interest is re-naming the Brady district and has been that way for a year.  Wonder to what ends someone would go to bolster their theories right, wrong, or otherwise?

http://www.newson6.com/story/22277124/residents-appeal-to-city-council-for-brady-district-name-change

this is ridiculous.
Is the area named the "Brady District" in any official capacity?
Or is it just a neighborhood association type thing.
What about Brady Street?

Quote
"I won't be down here supporting this district, spending one red copper penny, until they do right and rename the district. Because of what he stood for," said James Johnson.

lemme guess... you've never been down here.

Lets erase Tulsa's history and cash in our do-over.
Ooh, look at me! I'm making people happy! I'm the Magical Man from Happy-Land, in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane!

The property owners should be the ones to decide.
So, what do they want to call it?

Oh, right.
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2013/20130517_Bradymeet0517.jpg)

Relevant:

http://www.stabroeknews.com/2013/opinion/letters/03/09/names-carry-their-own-history-and-so-we-should-not-rename-places/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/27/secondworldwar.marktran
http://blogs.knoxnews.com/humphrey/2013/02/house-votes-69-22-to-block-loc.html

if you forget or erase history... you'll just end up repeating it.

And then there's this:

(http://www.fox23.com/media/lib/13/2/e/d/2ed3f723-c1a9-45e9-85d5-24c38c4ee799/Original.jpg)

 I go back and forth on the issue.

First my gut instinct was to say "change it" , make it the Guthrie Arts District or something.

Then someone pointed out how much time, work and money they have already put into the name.

 Then, someone the other day said to me. "Your an artist, would you want your work associated with Brady?"  "If it were the "Stalin Arts District", would you feel proud to tack that onto your work?".  Made me kind of look at things in a different way when it became personal to me as an artist.  

Nobody really thought of this issue for a long time because it wasn't well known. But interestingly, the more it's talked and argued about and the more "bad news" is put out there concerning Brady, the more distasteful the name becomes, and will become. Keeps up, and unfortunately more and more people will not be able to hear the name Brady without immediately conjuring up thoughts of "bad", instead of something positive and "art".  

  As per not changing things for the sake of history.  Sometimes changing the name of places is actually useful historically.  You can "date" things by what they were called and when. (Here is mention of "this place" which was called that during this time so we know it must have been written somewhere around that time.) And, (They called it this, for this reason and changed the name for this reason") which helps people see how society changed, lets you know something about their thoughts and attitudes during each era.  Changing the names of places is an age old practice that can actually act as historic punctuation marks.

new article from this land press
http://thislandpress.com/roundups/brady-a-discussion-of-history-healing-and-the-significance-of-a-name/

I'm sure the "MLK District" would fly right through.

Quote from: DolfanBob on May 17, 2013, 04:22:37 PM
I'm sure the "MLK District" would fly right through.

"You on MLK?!?!?!?!...GET THE F$%K OUTTA THERE!!!!!"

Celebrate things for what they are, not what they used to be.  The name does not change the history.

Brady was an asshat, well so were a lot of people back then.  I'm willing to bet that most of the buildings in Tulsa with a family name can be traced back to an asshat, but that's history, and the names are the ghosts that remind us of where we were, and how we got to where we are.  

It actually thrills me to know that some dead bigot is rolling in his grave because "those people" are living in a thriving and diverse community on the streets and neighborhoods with his namesake.  You want the ghost to suffer?  Own him!  

Quote from: Conan71 on May 17, 2013, 04:29:32 PM
"You on MLK?!?!?!?!...GET THE F$%K OUTTA THERE!!!!!"

One of Chris Rocks funniest skits.

Also: I like that Gaspar. Well said.

Quote from: TheArtist on May 17, 2013, 04:06:08 PM
Sometimes changing the name of places is actually useful historically.  You can "date" things by what they were called and when.

Istanbul / Constantinople

There was even a song about that.

:D

This one article has caused a lot of talk around town and got many to start this campaign to rename the area. However, the article has no sources cited! And any research I can do online, including scholarly journals and historical journals through a university library, I can find scarce information about Tate Brady as a whole, and absolutely nothing to corroborate MR Chapman's story. It is yellow journalism at it's finest.

My thought is to get rid of the word "district". I can stand that nobody can seem to think we name a neighborhood without calling it a district. It's too clinical for me. Dallas has Deep Ellum and Lower Greenwood. Denver has LoDo. Kansas City has Westport and the Bottoms. New York has the Garment District, right, but they also have Hell's Kitchen and many more.

I just hope we can keep the Pearl just that. No district needed there. It's just "the Pearl".

Many people had dropped "District" from both Brady & Blue Dome.  I only ever see that in print.

Quote from: tulsascoot on June 11, 2013, 12:35:04 AM
This one article has caused a lot of talk around town and got many to start this campaign to rename the area. However, the article has no sources cited! And any research I can do online, including scholarly journals and historical journals through a university library, I can find scarce information about Tate Brady as a whole, and absolutely nothing to corroborate MR Chapman's story. It is yellow journalism at it's finest.

I'm glad you caught that and it's not just me.  This is one of the worst essays masquerading as journalism I've seen in a long time.  He's a master at innuendo and managing to stir up a hornet's nest.  Ironically, Chapman cites some of the yellow journalism and journalists of the late teens and early 20's in Tulsa in his article.  Of course none of those articles are useful sources about Tate Brady or his beliefs.  Check Chapman's FB page, his sole purpose in life seems to be re-naming The Brady.  If he wants to so bad, he's more than welcome to raise the money for all the signage, paper goods, etc. which the city and merchants would be on the hook for.

I take bus parties/tours through the area. No one uses the term district. Mostly just Brady, Blue Dome or downtown. I try to pimp the East End, Pearl, Cherry and Brookside as well. I would like to see the Deco area drop "district" and be a little better defined. We just drive by the Vault and along Boston but Deco and East End are the hardest to identify so far.

The article was interesting but I know that a lot of print media coverage at the time simply disappeared. Its likely in someone's basement or attic but very difficult to do more than recount
family recollections and stories passed through generations. One of them had the guard dropping bombs from bi-planes. That would have been pretty cutting edge back then.

Quote from: Conan71 on June 11, 2013, 09:43:12 AM
I'm glad you caught that and it's not just me.  This is one of the worst essays masquerading as journalism I've seen in a long time.  He's a master at innuendo and managing to stir up a hornet's nest.  Ironically, Chapman cites some of the yellow journalism and journalists of the late teens and early 20's in Tulsa in his article.  Of course none of those articles are useful sources about Tate Brady or his beliefs.  Check Chapman's FB page, his sole purpose in life seems to be re-naming The Brady.  If he wants to so bad, he's more than welcome to raise the money for all the signage, paper goods, etc. which the city and merchants would be on the hook for.

There were some solid facts in the article, such as court records.  However, the tone of the overall article is obviously a run on trying to show that Brady was such a horrible person, and it draws as many conclusions as he thought he could get away with from any inference.  To be honest, of the sources that he sites, I've only seen one that actually connects Brady to the Klan, and that is him saying that he had previously been in but had left.  There might be more that I haven't found, but that is all I've seen thus far.  Chapman has an ax to grind, the only question is to what end.

Mr Chapman seems to have quite a few of Tulsa's finest as friends on his FB.
I wonder if he is a regular reader of Tulsa Now?

Funny, Chapman claims that the investigator for The National Civil Liberties Bureau "repeatedly" named the police chief and Tate Brady as perpetrators of the mob, yet the name Tate Brady never even appears in the official report from the NCLB.

QuoteThe man's cries were ignored; every man was whipped, tarred, and feathered. The incident became known "The Tulsa Outrage," and was reported in the national press. According to multiple interviews conducted by National Civil Liberties Bureau investigator L.A. Brown, two men were repeatedly identified as perpetrating the torture: Tulsa's Chief of Police, Ed Lucas, and W. Tate Brady, one of Tulsa's founders. That's Tate Brady, as in Brady Theater, Brady Arts District, and Brady Heights. [6] - See more at: http://thislandpress.com/04/18/2012/tate-brady-battle-greenwood/?page_num=1#sthash.bDFg0FQI.dpuf

Quote"Your investigator states freely that there has not been any
attempt to learn who composed the mob, either will there be
any attempt made to bring any of these law violators to justice
under the present regime. And your investigator does
not recommend that any legal proceedings be undertaken until
such time as there can be some show of obtaining justice.
"Justice to the people of Oklahoma demands that this report
attempt to correct another newspaper falsehood ; that is,
that this mob violence met with general approval. Your in
vestigator talked with more than 200 citizens both women and
men, none of whom approved the mob outrage.

http://libcudl.colorado.edu/wwi/pdf/i73704829.pdf

I read the entire report and never saw the name "Brady".  If anyone else finds it, sixer of Marshall's on me.

Quote from: Conan71 on June 11, 2013, 03:56:29 PM
Funny, Chapman claims that the investigator for The National Civil Liberties Bureau "repeatedly" named the police chief and Tate Brady as perpetrators of the mob, yet the name Tate Brady never even appears in the official report from the NCLB.


I read the entire report and never saw the name "Brady".  If anyone else finds it, sixer of Marshall's on me.

You know, it also makes me wonder why This Land is so consumed with stories related to racism in Tulsa.  Sure, that is a dark part of our past, but it's not part of our future.  Unfortunately, it seems that this has led them to publish things that satisfy this agenda without much research.

I really like their design and format, but I wish they could take a few steps forward and be a bit more thorough in their investigative stuff, rather than just providing a narrative platform for folks like Chapman.

Quote from: Conan71 on June 11, 2013, 03:56:29 PM
Funny, Chapman claims that the investigator for The National Civil Liberties Bureau "repeatedly" named the police chief and Tate Brady as perpetrators of the mob, yet the name Tate Brady never even appears in the official report from the NCLB.


I read the entire report and never saw the name "Brady".  If anyone else finds it, sixer of Marshall's on me.

okay, I want to know where my sixer is

QuoteOn the night of Nov. 5, 1917, while sitting in the hall at
No. 6 W. Brady St., Tulsa, Okla.

Hello all.
I'll be happy to meet anyone who disputes the facts contained within the Brady article. I can show you the documentation. The NCLB published a report. The report did not contain Brady's name. The elusive papers of L.A. Brown, the NCLB investigator who wrote the report, contain the names of Tate Brady and Ed Lucas (TPD chief). All 17 union members identified Brady. That is origin of the "repeatedly" reference. Princeton couldn't find their copies of his papers so we had to get them from the New York State Archives, you can contact them for copies. The Nightmare of Dreamland is based on facts and accurate. Recently, the article  received support from North Tulsa Historical Society, University of Tulsa History Professor Brian Hosmer. And the Oklahoma Society of Professional Journalism awarded the article 2nd place in 2012 for feature magazine writing.
I'm still waiting for the Oklahoma Historical Society to amend their biography on Tate Brady. 
The Brady story and the movement behind the name change just happens to be "trending" right now. I've been a history recovery specialist for 15 years. In 1998 I helped establish and raise the seed money for the Woody Guthrie Coalition, the first Okemah based movement to restore Woody's history to his hometown. That effort resulted in the annual festival. I work with the Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture, recovering artifacts for a permant exhibit on Greenwood. I was the guy that got the Leon Russell Archive into the OkPOP Museum. In 2009 I recovered Bob Wills tour bus from a cotton patch out in West Texas. It just  arrived here in Tulsa today.
   
Again, open invite.
leeroychapman@yahoo.com
Dig it.

Make it stop.

I was at Tulsa Tough on Saturday trying to explain to someone that I was at an intersection with Cincinnati and they were lost trying to find it because at some point it was renamed MLK. Stop renaming things. Embrace your history and how it has evolved. Stop being politically correct and costing folks money. Don't give power to racism, make it such a moot point that it does not exist. And mainly, stop being a pain in the rear and do something better with your time.

Like getting more bike lanes in downtown.

Quote from: custosnox on June 11, 2013, 04:39:03 PM
okay, I want to know where my sixer is

Damn it! You got me! Name your flavor.

If anyone knows Lee Roy Chapman or the editor of This Land, please let them know they are more than welcome to come on here and back up Chapman's assertions with documented evidence.  Nothing he points to in the story in his numbered bibliography makes a clear distinction.  I have no vested interest in the issue other than hating to see the stakeholders in this area taken to task after they have worked so hard for 30 years to change the image and create a new and vibrant identity for the district.  Now they have someone starting a movement based on an over-active imagination.  It's been said earlier in this thread that you would have to re-name many city streets, neighborhoods, and buildings if you wanted to blot out Tulsa's sad racial past as many other prominent founders were members of the same societies back in the day. 

I might also note what is not acceptable to society today was the norm generations ago.

Lee Roy:  thank you for posting that information.

I'm in the camp that is putting the KKK/horrible racist story for Mr. Brady in the "supported rumor/probably true" category.  But given the circumstances of the time, why wouldn't it be common knowledge who was and who was not associated with the Klan?  In many areas it was a registered social group, that then had "other" functions that were kept on the down-low.  If Mr. Brady was a prominent member and/or an outspoken racist - surely he wouldn't need to bother keeping it secret.

Hence, my skepticism.  While you reference a lot of support, it is all rumor at the heart of it.  Perhaps my understanding remains flawed.

My final point - Christopher Columbus had no qualms about subjugated, abducting, or even killing native peoples. George Washington was a slave owner who believed "Africans" had a naturally lower capacity for intelligence - justifying their servitude and the white man's "stewardship" of them.  Andrew Jackson would be considered a genocidal war criminal if his acts took place in Europe between 1938-1945 or in the 1990's.   But they get a day, a capital city, and their face on the most popular currency.  

Whitewashing history is an effort in futility.  I dare say many, if not most historical figures were horrible people by modern standards if you stop and look.  They were men of their times, and thankfully times have changed.  But in the instance of Mr. Brady, he largely developed the area that bears his name.  I don't want to rename every town square, district, building, and city because it turns out the namesake had a fatal flaw under the modern lens.

Stick up a plaque somewhere stating the facts, but I don't think anyone serious thinks having the name "Washington" on our capital is an endorsement of slavery, not is having "Brady" on the district an endorsement of the Klan.

Quote from: Lee Roy Chapman on June 11, 2013, 05:18:35 PM
Hello all.
I'll be happy to meet anyone who disputes the facts contained within the Brady article. I can show you the documentation. The NCLB published a report. The report did not contain Brady's name. The elusive papers of L.A. Brown, the NCLB investigator who wrote the report, contain the names of Tate Brady and Ed Lucas (TPD chief). All 17 union members identified Brady. That is origin of the "repeatedly" reference. Princeton couldn't find their copies of his papers so we had to get them from the New York State Archives, you can contact them for copies. The Nightmare of Dreamland is based on facts and accurate. Recently, the article  received support from North Tulsa Historical Society, University of Tulsa History Professor Brian Hosmer. And the Oklahoma Society of Professional Journalism awarded the article 2nd place in 2012 for feature magazine writing.
I'm still waiting for the Oklahoma Historical Society to amend their biography on Tate Brady.  
The Brady story and the movement behind the name change just happens to be "trending" right now. I've been a history recovery specialist for 15 years. In 1998 I helped establish and raise the seed money for the Woody Guthrie Coalition, the first Okemah based movement to restore Woody's history to his hometown. That effort resulted in the annual festival. I work with the Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture, recovering artifacts for a permant exhibit on Greenwood. I was the guy that got the Leon Russell Archive into the OkPOP Museum. In 2009 I recovered Bob Wills tour bus from a cotton patch out in West Texas. It just  arrived here in Tulsa today.
 
Again, open invite.
leeroychapman@yahoo.com
Dig it.

Okay, that never happens- you apparently were writing this as I was writing my latest add to this thread inviting you or the editors to clarify or at least cite sources which can be corroborated to your story.  Welcome aboard and thank you for stopping by.  

Assuming Brown's notes exist as you say, Brown's personal notes would say Brady was in on the tarring and feathering of the Wobblies.  I'm curious, have you ever been able to establish why Brady's name was omitted from the official report, but not the identity of the police chief?  I don't ask that to joust with you but to try and establish why he was selectively naming people in the report with the exception of one prominent Tulsan.

I did not read anywhere in the report that the Wobblies were black, just a union which might threaten production in the oil patch, is that correct?  This incident still does not create a link to the race riots of 1921 unless it's attempting to establish that Tate Brady was once a prominent member of certain societies which may have been at the center of the events in the race riots.

While I appreciate your work, I also appreciate the hard work and sweat equity people like Peter Mayo, David Sharp, and many others have put into the area and don't see the need to taint that by ginning up racial tension from days gone by.  It's duly noted that dwellings and buildings destroyed in the riot have been memorialized with sidewalk monuments throughout the area.  In my opinion, I believe we have properly recognized the terrible past of this area through that and many other means including the John Hope Franklin reconciliation park.

I appreciate the offer to personally speak with the author of an article about its sources. However, I don't feel I should have to do that as they should be cited within the article or at the end of it for it to maintain credibility.

But maybe I should just stop here. Let the names stay, it's not worth it, and there's no reason to change them now just because of the society in which the founders lived. I don't think there's any movement to change the name of the car that Bow and Luke Duke drove; should there be?

Quote from: Conan71 on June 11, 2013, 06:06:13 PM
While I appreciate your work, I also appreciate the hard work and sweat equity people like Peter Mayo, David Sharp, and many others have put into the area and don't see the need to taint that by ginning up racial tension from days gone by.  It's duly noted that dwellings and buildings destroyed in the riot have been memorialized with sidewalk monuments throughout the area.  In my opinion, I believe we have properly recognized the terrible past of this area through that and many other means including the John Hope Franklin reconciliation park.

Tulsa Now needs a "thanks" or "like" button mod...

Until then, (http://chrisblattman.com/files/2011/07/facebook_like_button_big1.jpg)

As in most of these threads, the first two pages encompassed the best and most cogent thinking. The rest seemed to be re-active, defensive, contrived and trivial. I especially dislike when folks hang out their education and "accomplishments" for all to see as confirmation that they are in fact correct.

This is a stupid idea to change an area's identification that was organic in nature. Regardless of their success, designed names suck (look at Sand Springs effort to district-ize their city). Just relax and let this sensationalizing effort by self serving interests deflate.

Link to an image from the LA Brown report here:

http://thislandpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/labrown.jpg

If you can't see it, the incriminating passage reads: "For instance, all made the same statement with emphasis that Tate Brady put on the tar and feathers 'in the name of the women and children of Belgium.'"

This whole thing is nothing but a witch hunt. The pro-name change contingent is attempting to hold this district hostage with claims to online restaurant review sites and to the BBB of broken glass found in drinks, food poisoning, etc. on Brady district restaurants. It's not right. Before Lee Roy Chapman started this whole campaign, very few Tulsans had any clue who Tate Brady was or the claims made against him. It's the name of a street. The name of a theater. The district was not named that to honor Tate Brady — like AquaMan stated, it came to be in an organic fashion.

The more you pick at a wound, the longer it takes to heal. Leave it alone.

Where do you see the stories about bad reviews of the restaurants? Where are the stories about BBB reviews? I have not heard any of that? I spend a lot of time in the area and visit most of the establishments and I only hear positive things about the bars and restaurants.

I am still undecided. I am a member of the Brady Merchants Association and respect all the work that has been done to make the area a destination. But I am also completely embarrassed to know the area in some way honors a creepy guy. I do believe the evidence shows him to be a force for an evil part of our history.

My question is this. Is there anything that we could find out about him or any other historical figure that would warrant changing the name? I think the answer to many of the people in this discussion is no. They either think it happened too long ago to do anything about it or are defensive that the current occupants have spent so much time in a branding effort.

To me, neither of those are valid enough reasons to not change the name. This is a teachable moment of embracing our past while doing something about it.

For now, I lean toward changing the name of the street. That shouldn't affect the name of the district because of the existence of the Brady Theater. The Blue Dome district is named for a single building. This would be the same.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 07, 2013, 03:00:11 PM
For now, I lean toward changing the name of the street. That shouldn't affect the name of the district because of the existence of the Brady Theater. The Blue Dome district is named for a single building. This would be the same.

Why? Just leave it the same. That would be two street name changes that were uncalled for in the area. All it does is cause confusion.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 07, 2013, 03:00:11 PM
Where do you see the stories about bad reviews of the restaurants? Where are the stories about BBB reviews? I have not heard any of that? I spend a lot of time in the area and visit most of the establishments and I only hear positive things about the bars and restaurants.

This was shared with me by a Brady District business owner.

A meaningless compromise. Saves some face for Henderson and co. but total baloney. I really laughed at his remarks in the World, something to the effect of changing the name to help effect "the one city" we have always striven for. Nonsense. Dividing people rarely brings them together. MLK Boulevard up to the tracks, then Cincinnati south of the tracks doesn't bring people together.

Where does it stop? Does anyone think that Brady was the only racist, former Klan member, evil businessman that had a street or building named after him? That he was operating in a vacuum? That our more recent notables had any less racist attitudes in the 70's when entire black neighborhoods were razed in the name of crime prevention?

Please note that current history tells us Tulsa's name comes from the slurring of the Creek homelands of Tallassi, Georgia. The Creeks having been forced to give up their lands and move here where they were exploited and treated as second class citizens at best. A pitiful time in history, yet they do not begrudge us co-opting and slurring their name. Its just a white man's word to them.

A teaching moment is where we overcome our past transgressions by noting how far off track people can become, not by hiding them.

You ask where does it stop. I ask when would it ever start.

Is there anything that you could learn that would cause you to change want to change the name of a street?

Any behavior?

From most of the comments I hear, the answer is no. Street names must be etched forever in stone.

Perhaps we should rename everything named after a person.  If you dig deep enough, everyone did something that someone else won't like.  Let's rename everything after non-intrusive plants.  No Poison Ivy Avenue please. 

Want to drive a Ford automobile or truck?  No more.  Henry Ford had some bad ties in todays world.  Chevrolet, Buick....  also named after people.  Oldsmobile is gone now as is Pontiac. Anything named after Charles Lindberg?  Not allowed.  We have already discussed that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.  Carnegie Hall?  Rename it Tulip Blossom Hall.  And so on...

Each of your examples are private owned places or things. This is a public street.

We actually can do something about this.

Then do something about this: Lee school is named after a Confederate general who owned slaves. Creek Indians owned slaves and refuse to this day to allow them voting privileges within the tribes they were part of.

These were racists whose names are on public streets and schools. It will not end and it is divisive. The polls show that only 17% support this name change. Yet it will likely happen. Hows that for divisive?

Lake Yahola. Public water source named after a popular and intelligent Creek Indian...who owned slaves as did most Creeks.

"Later the young man developed as an influential and eloquent speakers who utilized his skills for his people first and foremost. He was selected as a speaker for the chiefs, which was a distinct political role on the National Council. He became a wealthy trader and owned a 2,000-acre (8 km²) plantation near North Fork Town. As did other Creek and members of the Five Civilized Tribes, he purchased African-American slaves as workers for his plantation. Opothleyahola joined the Freemasons and accepted Christianity to become a Baptist."

Wikipedia.

Don't drink the water.

I don't condone owning slaves. Is there a movement of people who want to speak of this?

The charges against Tate Brady are heinous. If true, they are worse in my opinion. It is my opinion and it is based on how long ago it occurred and the acts themselves. Brady is accused of organizing the kidnapping of 17 people (guilty of not owning war bonds?), taking them to the woods, beating them with rope, then smearing tar and feathers into the wounds. Brady is also accused of leading a small group of men during the riot and killing five.

You are entitled to be outraged by someone owning slaves. It was wrong. But what Tate Brady is accused of is worse in my opinion.

Quote from: AquaMan on July 07, 2013, 08:33:31 PM
Then do something about this: Lee school is named after a Confederate general who owned slaves.

It was actually U.S. Grant's family that were slave owners, not Lee.
Grant still has his portrait on money... how painful must that be?   ::)

Michael, worse than owning another person and depriving them of their personhood? Treating them as chattel? Beat me, tar me feather me but I still walk away a free man. I can sue, I can recover damages and force punishment. Slaves have no such standing.

Look, what you are reading is aged hearsay, perhaps from business enemies or participants who shielded their own reputations. They are old reports gathered by a publication who failed to investigate other businessmen who were likely involved just as much as Brady. Do you know the story of the inflammatory Tribune race riot headlines that have strangely disappeared? Why didn't the publication report those race mongering headlines like they did the other unsupported stories of the time? Whoops! There goes the Tribune Lofts! Perhaps because they haven't had an entertainment district named after them. Brady has become the scapegoat.

Opinions are great. Its one of two things we all have. But failure to see this for what it is, a grand standing, headline seeking, self serving, politically misguided effort that will never end, is foolish. This deepens the divide between factions of the city.

I gave you at least two examples and there are more. There is a movement that speaks to the existing racism of that time, it starts when Brady becomes forcibly whitewashed. The courts are still addressing the Creeks refusal to recognize as tribal members their former slaves who often bore their children.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 07, 2013, 06:36:09 PM
Each of your examples are private owned places or things. This is a public street.

We actually can do something about this.

Washington DC is a public place.  The Jefferson Memorial is a public place that I guess should be torn down since renaming it would be senseless.

You and everyone else who is concerned about a person's history could refuse to buy Ford automobiles....

QuoteYou ask where does it stop. I ask when would it ever start.

These would be places to start.

Quote from: patric on July 07, 2013, 10:46:51 PM
It was actually U.S. Grant's family that were slave owners, not Lee.
Grant still has his portrait on money... how painful must that be?   ::)

At least Grant didn't lead armed forces in support of those slave owners' rights.

Nah, Lee School needs to go. Then we start down the list of streets and buildings named after the five civilized tribes. Wait till we start figuring out the secret Nazi party supporters from pre WWII. This is big. The whole city may have to change. New street signs, advertising, etc. Good for business, really.

Then of course The Gathering place, funded by a German surnamed banker, which is on property that has a house designed to replicate Jefferson Davis's plantation. Can't go there unless they put up a plaque and some statuary.

Quote from: AquaMan on July 07, 2013, 11:04:14 PM
At least Grant didn't lead armed forces in support of those slave owners' rights.

Nah, Lee School needs to go. Then we start down the list of streets and buildings named after the five civilized tribes. Wait till we start figuring out the secret Nazi party supporters from pre WWII. This is big. The whole city may have to change. New street signs, advertising, etc. Good for business, really.

Then of course The Gathering place, funded by a German surnamed banker, which is on property that has a house designed to replicate Jefferson Davis's plantation. Can't go there unless they put up a plaque and some statuary.

While I agree that it is ridiculous to try and rename the district, or even the street, your stab at Kaiser is a really poor one.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/250999_10150210713123867_2324151_n.jpg)

My opinions are clearly in the minority on this forum.

To Red Arrow...I don't own a Ford vehicle, but not because Henry Ford made anti-Semitic statements. But you really relate that to the torture and murder that Brady is accused of?

To Aquaman...do you think the newspaper writing racist editorials equates as well?

I don't.

What about Sandusky Drive?  Penn State...

Michael, if we are going on a witch hunt and rename things because the namesake might have done something bad we had better put millions aside to start the effort...

The Kennedys were bootleggers.
Lee fought to defend slavery.
Grant owned slaves too.
Carnegie was a tyrant.
Edison has been accused of being an anti semmite.

I heard a rumor that Admiral is named for Admiral Yamamoto, who bombed Pearl Harbor.  If I could get WWII veterans to sign on we change that? Now, I don't have actual proof yet... but convincing people they should be outraged isn't that hard.

I heard that anything Kaiser is named after Kaiser Wilhelm, who was from Germany and is kinda-sorta responsible for the deaths of millions of Americans.

17% want to change the name because something a man dead for 80+ years may have done was stereotypical at the time and on top of that, he is accused of worse.  Sorry.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 06:39:25 AM
To Red Arrow...I don't own a Ford vehicle, but not because Henry Ford made anti-Semitic statements. But you really relate that to the torture and murder that Brady is accused of?

Are you saying being antisemitic is no big deal?

Quote from: Red Arrow on July 07, 2013, 06:10:41 PM
Perhaps we should rename everything named after a person.  If you dig deep enough, everyone did something that someone else won't like.  Let's rename everything after non-intrusive plants.  No Poison Ivy Avenue please. 

Want to drive a Ford automobile or truck?  No more.  Henry Ford had some bad ties in todays world.  Chevrolet, Buick....  also named after people.  Oldsmobile is gone now as is Pontiac. Anything named after Charles Lindberg?  Not allowed.  We have already discussed that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.  Carnegie Hall?  Rename it Tulip Blossom Hall.  And so on...

We would need to rename several cities and states as well.

I'll repeat the suggestion I made on other mediums.

Let's just say the street and district is named after Wayne Brady, maybe have him perform at the Brady theater.

(http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/files/2012/04/WayneBrady.jpg)

Boom. Solved.

Quote from: Gaspar on July 08, 2013, 07:53:49 AM
We would need to rename several cities and states as well.

Yep.

I give up.

I guess we can never change anything because if we do, we have to change everything. I personally think that is a bogus argument, but you guys keep using it. I am uncomfortable with Brady's legacy. I didn't start the idea that we should change the name of the district, I just agreed that we should talk about it and consider it. I think his alleged crimes were unthinkable.

If many people think we should protest Ford vehicles, I would listen to their reasons. Apparently, you guys would be too afraid to listen. I don't know of any protests of Ford, but Red Arrow keeps bringing him up. I do know of a Brady protest and it is happening right here in Tulsa. I did not know of the Race Riot until after I finished school and I did not know of Brady until a local paper wrote a story about it. As I learn, I sometimes change my views.

Again I ask the question, is there anything you could learn about a person that would change your mind about honoring them? Apparently the answer is no because everyone has done something wrong in their life. I completely disagree.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 08:40:29 AM
I give up.

I guess we can never change anything because if we do, we have to change everything. I personally think that is a bogus argument, but you guys keep using it.

It illustrates the lunacy of it all.   Lots of things are named after people of questionable legacy.   It's history.  Learn from it.
As soon as street a has been renamed...   The Hendersons of America will raise a stink about street/thing b.   and how it's being named after person b makes them uncomfortable.

A few renaming suggestions:

• History St
• Racist Ave
• Whitewashed Place
• Tate Blvd
• Gumdrop Ave
• Lollypop Lane

Here is a list of the number of times we have changed the names of streets in Tulsa.

http://stevemorse.org/census/changes/TulsaChanges.htm

As you can see, we have changed street names over two hundred times.

I expect similar outrage now from each of you. How dare we change a street name?

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 09:00:49 AM
Here is a list of the number of times we have changed the names of streets in Tulsa.

http://stevemorse.org/census/changes/TulsaChanges.htm

As you can see, we have changed street names over two hundred times.

I expect similar outrage now from each of you. How dare we change a street name?

Why isn't the change to Brady listed in that list?

In my opinion this is picking at a scab.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 08:40:29 AM
I don't know of any protests of Ford, but Red Arrow keeps bringing him up. I do know of a Brady protest and it is happening right here in Tulsa. I did not know of the Race Riot until after I finished school and I did not know of Brady until a local paper wrote a story about it. As I learn, I sometimes change my views.

I expect that most people today do not know, or choose to forgive, about Henry Ford's antisemitism.  That is all.  It's an example.  I do not expect people to stop buying Ford automobiles because of it.

QuoteAgain I ask the question, is there anything you could learn about a person that would change your mind about honoring them? Apparently the answer is no because everyone has done something wrong in their life. I completely disagree.

Being a closet Liberal Democrat would be just cause.   ;D

We are considering renaming a street and a BRAND.  The Brady District has been carefully branded and recently really took off.  If you want to rename Cincinatti to Chicago... fine.  But changing a brand is hard, and changing it because of accusations is bad business and bad policy.

He MAY have done bad things.  It is likely he was a racist.  Bit certainly when then street was named his contemporaries knew more than we did.  That doesn't make it right, hut it sets a precedent that takes more than rumor to throw away.

Is there a time when new information could force a name change? Absolutely.  But I think you face a high burden when you are trying to amend history.  And even then, as to Brady, something short of overt violence or instigation of violence doesn't convince me (I.e., racist remarks by a racist white man of his day are not enough for me).

For perspective: I think its a shame that many southern monuments to the civil war have been white washed. Many have long ago been altered to honor "all" the fallen or otherwise have been made neutral.  I wish they left these monuments alone and let New Orleans , Richmond, Atlanta honor their confederate dead.  Not because I want slavery or give a rats butt about "southern pride," but they are rewriting history.

Brady was honored by his contemporaries.  Absent significant proof of overt violence, let it be. (IMHO)

Pearl street was named by a Mayor to honor his mistress. Many years later when he was no longer in power, city leaders, embarrassed by the name, changed it to Peoria.

Let me hear your outrage. Honestly, I think you guys should demand it be changed back to Pearl.

If not, please explain the difference. We have branded the area as Pearl, by the way.

Streets should be named to honor people, not to dishonor.

Quote from: custosnox on July 08, 2013, 12:20:30 AM
While I agree that it is ridiculous to try and rename the district, or even the street, your stab at Kaiser is a really poor one.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/250999_10150210713123867_2324151_n.jpg)

Because you're not following my drift. 92 years from now, when people are incensed that businessmen are still outsourcing jobs to other parts of the country and world (which BOK did) someone may use my post referring to Kaiser as a German surname to change parts of the city named after him.

It will be out of context of course, not really accurate and unprovable, yet, people will sign up to feel good about themselves.

I am offended by your off-hand slur of George Kaiser.

He has given so much and I can't think of anything he has insisted be in his name. Your inclusion of him in this discussion is in very poor taste.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 06:39:25 AM
My opinions are clearly in the minority on this forum.

To Red Arrow...I don't own a Ford vehicle, but not because Henry Ford made anti-Semitic statements. But you really relate that to the torture and murder that Brady is accused of?

To Aquaman...do you think the newspaper writing racist editorials equates as well?

I don't.

They weren't editorials my friend. They were incendiary headlines that mobilized mobs. They were available in files and on microfiche for some years where many people saw them but have since disappeared. Now its an anecdote no more supportable in fact than most of the Brady lore.

1901 Conversation:

Quote
I am offended by your off-hand slur of George Kaiser Tate Brady.

He has given so much and I can't think of anything he has insisted be in his name. Your inclusion of him in this discussion is in very poor taste.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 09:21:56 AM
Pearl street was named by a Mayor to honor his mistress. Many years later when he was no longer in power, city leaders, embarrassed by the name, changed it to Peoria.

Let me hear your outrage. Honestly, I think you guys should demand it be changed back to Pearl.

If not, please explain the difference. We have branded the area as Pearl, by the way.

You're not giving up and your arguments are getting weaker. Its not unusual to change street names, the motivation is the key.

My street was originally Tookah street named after an Indian daughter of a local builder. Your grand father changed it to 19th street for logical reasons. That was acceptable. We even changed a local creek that was called "Black Boy Creek" on maps. The motivation was clear and supportable.

Indian street is not. We don't have a Caucasian street, an Asian Street or a Negro Street. It should be changed but Indians seem to be a lot more accomodating than some minorities. Maybe its the casino money that soothes their anger or maybe lack of a city council position.

To be consistent you must apply your logic throughout the city. And we must accept conjecture as a basis for that application.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 09:29:36 AM
I am offended by your off-hand slur of George Kaiser.

He has given so much and I can't think of anything he has insisted be in his name. Your inclusion of him in this discussion is in very poor taste.

Taste is subjective. I had family that lost jobs when he outsourced work to New Jersey. Some criticize him for the airlines fiasco that the city covered.  I am sure he is a fine man and I appreciate his help for the city but he is certainly no saint. Why is he off limits anyway? Who is available? Chester Cadieux? French surname.

Lighten up. You're wrong on this one.

Perhaps we should just rename everything that has been named after a person.

By chance I just stumbled across this:

Mother Teresa: Anything but a saint...
Researchers dispell the myth of altruism and generosity surrounding Mother Teresa
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-03/uom-mta022813.php

We could use the name Jesus street. But I think the Mexicans would be confused.

I guess everyone is bad. I need to just shut up and deal with it. I won't.

If I find Brady's behavior bad, who cares? You guys can always find examples of other people having bad in their past. Even Mother Teresa.

I think it is pathetic that you guys don't care. Once again, I ask, "Is there anything bad someone could do that would warrant renaming a public street?"

I guess not.

This is about the rights of a district that has invested real time and money into their identity and brand. Their identity has nothing to do with Tate Brady. It is a district named for the street which it surrounds. Company names, printed materials, websites...that stuff ain't free.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 01:22:47 PM
I guess everyone is bad. I need to just shut up and deal with it. I won't.

If I find Brady's behavior bad, who cares? You guys can always find examples of other people having bad in their past. Even Mother Teresa.

I think it is pathetic that you guys don't care. Once again, I ask, "Is there anything bad someone could do that would warrant renaming a public street?"

I guess not.

This is why anyone who speaks out here will most likely never speak out in a true public (non-innerwebs) forum.  To speak out against the renaming you are immediately labeled as someone who doesn't care about the crimes of the past.

I find it hysterical that a group of upper income Caucasians from south of the tracks are leading the charge to change the name of a street and district in which 99% of the people that live north of the tracks never step foot in the district as a patron and all in the name of making everyone feel better about cleansing our town of the missteps of our founding fathers.  I say that as one of the 1% of the people who live north of the tracks and patronize the Brady District almost daily.

While we're talking about reminders of the race riot, let's talk about the irony of building a baseball park next to the race riot memorial, when it was a baseball park a few blocks away where the "rioters" were interred.  Even more ironic, they wouldn't have had that land if a group of donors hadn't finally agreed to step up (after I was personally told by one of the donors a year prior they had no interest in bailing the state out and funding the memorial) and fund the construction of the memorial to "convince" the Greenwood Chamber to do the land swap that made the ballpark possible.

I'd love to to know how much time and investment the leaders of the name change really have in other activities that truly promote the unification of Tulsa.  The wounds of the past will not be healed until north Tulsa has the same opportunities for prosperity as the rest of Tulsa.

Quote from: AquaMan on July 08, 2013, 09:45:44 AM

Indian street is not. We don't have a Caucasian street, an Asian Street or a Negro Street. It should be changed but Indians seem to be a lot more accomodating than some minorities. Maybe its the casino money that soothes their anger or maybe lack of a city council position.

Wait, I thought the street names west of Main were named after cities west of the Mississippi. Carson = Carson City NV, Quanah, TX, Santa Fe, NM, Guthrie OK  etcetera.

Quote from: carltonplace on July 08, 2013, 02:32:31 PM
Wait, I thought the street names west of Main were named after cities west of the Mississippi. Carson = Carson City NV, Quanah, TX, Santa Fe, NM, Guthrie OK  etcetera.

Those are North-South streets. Brady runs East-West. North of 1st street it goes to names in alpha order.

Which brings up another point...IF Brady were to be renamed, it would have to be a B name.

Quote from: AngieBrumley on July 08, 2013, 02:39:19 PM
Those are North-South streets. Brady runs East-West. North of 1st street it goes to names in alpha order.

Which brings up another point...IF Brady were to be renamed, it would have to be a B name.

MLK in lieu of Cincinnati doesn't fall in line with the naming convention, so I doubt that will be considered.

Quote from: AngieBrumley on July 08, 2013, 02:39:19 PM
Those are North-South streets. Brady runs East-West. North of 1st street it goes to names in alpha order.

Which brings up another point...IF Brady were to be renamed, it would have to be a B name.

I was speaking about Indian Ave which is between Houston Ave and Jackson Ave

The Name streets north of 1st Street do maintain alphabetical integrity with the exception of John Hope Franklin Blvd in the western part of the city.

We should definitely rename everything named after Thomas Jefferson and burn the bill of rights.  He had lots of slaves at Monticello, and fathered half a dozen children with his underage slaves.  That makes him a racist and pedifile by today's standards.

Though George Washington claimed to be against slavery, he kept slaves until his death.  Actually, Martha did not free them until 12 years after his passing. We've got to tear down all of those monuments and rename lots of streets, cities, and even a state!

Thomas Edison liked to kill animals with electricity.  Lots of dogs, cats, cows, even an elephant.  He actually filmed the elephant.


It's not just people though.  "Oklahoma" literally translated from the Choctaw, means "Red People."  How racist is that?  I say we change it to whatever the Choctaw is for "funky frying pan."

Winston Churchill was a big racist in favor of genocide.
"I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place." -Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937"I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes" – Writing as president of the Air Council.

Martin Luther was an antisemite too.
- "First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."
- "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."
- "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."
- "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."
- "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."
- "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them. ... Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]..."
- "Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."

MLK cheated on his wife.

Gandhi slept with his grand-niece.

Pavlov experimented on homeless children.


When we regard historical figures, it is important to realize that they are just people.  We can choose to focus on the positive or dwell on the negative aspects of their character. If we choose the latter, we become consumed with being critics, always willing to throw the first stone, and focus on the sins of the past instead of the lessons. We can change the name of Brady, but it punishes only those who have investment in that name. We cannot change history, and that is what we are actually trying to do.  This is no more than an exercise in trying to FEEL morally superior, but I guess it makes an interesting news story.

Quote from: carltonplace on July 08, 2013, 02:32:31 PM
Wait, I thought the street names west of Main were named after cities west of the Mississippi. Carson = Carson City NV, Quanah, TX, Santa Fe, NM, Guthrie OK  etcetera.

Maybe its short for Indian Territory?

I had never even thought twice about it till RM's remarks. Now it seems pretty strange.

Quote from: AquaMan on July 07, 2013, 03:47:35 PM
Dividing people rarely brings them together. MLK Boulevard up to the tracks, then Cincinnati south of the tracks doesn't bring people together.

Quote of the year.

Quote from: AngieBrumley on July 08, 2013, 02:39:19 PM
...IF Brady were to be renamed, it would have to be a B name.

Drop the Y.
Brad street named after Brad Pitt.

Change the Y to a EN.
Braden Street named after O.E. Braden ( founder of OneOk).

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 04:28:41 PM
Drop the Y.
Brad street named after Brad Pitt.

Change the Y to a EN.
Braden Street named after O.E. Braden ( founder of OneOk).

We already have a Braden.

Quote from: rdj on July 08, 2013, 01:55:13 PM
This is why anyone who speaks out here will most likely never speak out in a true public (non-innerwebs) forum.  To speak out against the renaming you are immediately labeled as someone who doesn't care about the crimes of the past.

It is like eight against one on this conversation and I am the problem?

I am trying to express my opinion and ask a simple question and now I am the problem with all public forums?

Wow. I had no idea I was so powerful. BTW, I never said that people don't care about crimes of the past. I said they don't care about the crimes that Tate Brady is accused of. I stand by that statement.

Quote from: AngieBrumley on July 08, 2013, 04:33:15 PM
We already have a Braden.

We should change it. He probably sinned somewhere.

How about Borden Street?

Brady theater might get jealous that the street's now named for the milk man next door.

Quote from: Gaspar on July 08, 2013, 03:36:11 PM
We've got to tear down all of those monuments and rename lots of streets, cities, and even a state!

Who do you think built the White House?

It's gotta go, too.  Maybe we can put Rolland Emmerich on it?

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 04:35:38 PM
It is like eight against one on this conversation and I am the problem?

I am trying to express my opinion and ask a simple question and now I am the problem with all public forums?

Wow. I had no idea I was so powerful. BTW, I never said that people don't care about crimes of the past. I said they don't care about the crimes that Tate Brady is accused of. I stand by that statement.

All eight of us are the problem? That's how powerful you are. We had to gang up on you.

You use a lot of conjecture. "If's", "Accusations", and inflammatory crimes that weren't even documented well at the time. That's just too weak for such a strong man.

Thanks for noticing.

I like the name Borden street.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 06:48:51 PM
Thanks for noticing.

I like the name Borden street.

Sounds like a fascinating guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Borden,_Jr.

http://staugustine.com/stories/070906/world_3947831.shtml

Liverpool will not rename Penny Lane, despite slavery ties
The Associated Press
Published Sunday, July 09, 2006

LONDON -- Penny Lane will keep its name.

Liverpool officials said Saturday they would modify a proposal to rename streets linked to the slave trade when they realized the road made famous by the 1967 Beatles song was one of them.

The unassuming suburban avenue was named for James Penny, a wealthy 18th-century slave ship owner. Liverpool, the Beatles' northern English hometown, was once a major hub for the slave trade.

"I don't think anyone would seriously consider renaming Penny Lane," said city council member Barbara Mace, who has been pressing to get rid of names linked to slavery. "My proposal is to rename several of the streets and to replace them with the names of people who have done something positive."

Eric Lynch, 74, who gives tours focused on the history of Liverpool's involvement in the slave trade, said renaming any streets or squares would be a "disgraceful attempt to change history."

"It's like somebody in Germany deciding to bulldoze Auschwitz," Lynch said. "Like somebody deciding not to celebrate D-Day. If we don't know the past, how can we make sure we don't make the same mistakes? Are the monuments to the Irish famines going to go next?"

"You cannot and should not change history, however disagreeable it is," he said.

The 90-member council plans to talk Wednesday about a plan to rename several central Liverpool streets named for notorious slave traders.

Some want instead to honor Anthony Walker, a black teenager murdered with an ax in a July 2005 racial attack. Others suggest renaming streets for leading abolitionists.

"It's not trying to rewrite history," Mace said. "You can't. Liverpool's whole history is based on the slave trade. That's on the history books."

Liverpool was an important port of call for slave ships traveling between Africa and the Americas. During the second half of the 18th century, much of the city's economy was based on the trade.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2013, 08:40:29 AM
I give up.

I guess we can never change anything because if we do, we have to change everything. I personally think that is a bogus argument, but you guys keep using it. I am uncomfortable with Brady's legacy. I didn't start the idea that we should change the name of the district, I just agreed that we should talk about it and consider it. I think his alleged crimes were unthinkable.

If many people think we should protest Ford vehicles, I would listen to their reasons. Apparently, you guys would be too afraid to listen. I don't know of any protests of Ford, but Red Arrow keeps bringing him up. I do know of a Brady protest and it is happening right here in Tulsa. I did not know of the Race Riot until after I finished school and I did not know of Brady until a local paper wrote a story about it. As I learn, I sometimes change my views.

Again I ask the question, is there anything you could learn about a person that would change your mind about honoring them? Apparently the answer is no because everyone has done something wrong in their life. I completely disagree.

We allow names of states, counties, cities, streets, and even the seat of the United States government to remain even though they have been named after well-documented prominent slave owners, genocidal maniacs who advocated the extermination of Indians, and those who oppressed anyone but white free men.

I'm not sure how people gathered that Chapman's piece on Brady is "well-documented".  He does a masterful job of creating an identity of this man via 80 year-old hearsay.  How do we cobble together that he was the leader of the race riots based on his alleged participation in the tarring and feathering of some white males who were making trouble in the oil patch?

For some reason, Chapman (and apparently the publisher of This Land) has made it a personal mission to un-do other's hard work at creating a brand over the last 30 years and he's whipped a small minority of people into a frenzy over it who simply refuse to dig deeper into his claims.  Instead of clearly spelling out his sources in his articles, he says we must meet with him to see it.

Let's just name it the "This Land District" or "Guthrie District" since Chapman seems to have such an obsession for all things Woody Guthrie.

I believe that is an unfair opinion of the writer.

No one said anything about this in Tulsa's past. You went to school in Tulsa. Did you learn anything about the Tulsa Race Riot? I didn't. Until Chapman start researching this, I would bet that only like ten people new anything about this guy. Historians sometimes learn embarrassing history and this was a story that I think should be told.

People tell me that I should ignore it. I should focus on the positives of Brady. People keep saying that many things are named after people who did bad things.

How is that an excuse to hide the truth? Now that I know about Brady, I don't think the same about him. I can't just forget about it. I used to love Michael Jackson's music. Then I learned that he fondled little boys. Now when I hear one of his songs, I don't like it as much.

If nothing happens to the name of the street, it will have still been worth it for the community to have learned about Brady. It is a teachable lesson and shouldn't be covered up just because it happened a long time ago, or it hurts an area brand, or our history has others guilty of bad behavior.

I applaud This Land Press for educating us.  

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 09, 2013, 11:50:35 AM
If nothing happens to the name of the street, it will have still been worth it for the community to have learned about Brady. It is a teachable lesson and shouldn't be covered up just because it happened a long time ago, or it hurts an area brand, or our history has others guilty of bad behavior.

It seems to me that getting rid of the evidence (renaming things) is just another form of cover-up.

Why not keep the name of the district and the street but post factoid plaques all over the district?

"this happened here"

If the Brady stories can be backed up then plaque it.  "This street/district was named after...and he did this"

Otherwise, we move on.  It's not worth the loss of recognition that the District has developed but the truth of its past can always be documented for people to learn.

I don't believe anyone on this forum is saying "ignore it".

Quite the opposite.
What we are saying is this:  renaming the street is a very deliberate "ignore this and pretend it never happened".

Keeping the name is good way of remembering it.   
Changing the name is a good way of forgetting it.

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 09, 2013, 01:30:05 PM
I don't believe anyone on this forum is saying "ignore it".

Quite the opposite.
What we are saying is this:  renaming the street is a very deliberate "ignore this and pretend it never happened".

Keeping the name is good way of remembering it.   
Changing the name is a good way of forgetting it.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
Give that man a free hotdog.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 09, 2013, 11:50:35 AM
I believe that is an unfair opinion of the writer.

No one said anything about this in Tulsa's past. You went to school in Tulsa. Did you learn anything about the Tulsa Race Riot? I didn't. Until Chapman start researching this, I would bet that only like ten people new anything about this guy. Historians sometimes learn embarrassing history and this was a story that I think should be told.

People tell me that I should ignore it. I should focus on the positives of Brady. People keep saying that many things are named after people who did bad things.

How is that an excuse to hide the truth? Now that I know about Brady, I don't think the same about him. I can't just forget about it. I used to love Michael Jackson's music. Then I learned that he fondled little boys. Now when I hear one of his songs, I don't like it as much.

If nothing happens to the name of the street, it will have still been worth it for the community to have learned about Brady. It is a teachable lesson and shouldn't be covered up just because it happened a long time ago, or it hurts an area brand, or our history has others guilty of bad behavior.

I applaud This Land Press for educating us.  

In law i think they refer to this as "assumes facts not in evidence". They did teach us about the Race Riot in the 60's at Woodrow Wilson jr. high. It wasn't much but it was in the textbooks and covered in Social Studies. I should note that The World did some pretty good reporting when the issue of riot reparations was pushed many years ago.  I wouldn't be surprised if much of the current reporting was in those articles that went to the masses btw. There have been ample opportunities for education on the subject.

I find myself in agreement here with people I have very little else to agree with. We have all given you pretty good arguments and nothing sways your view. I just don't see This Land Press the same way. They just played with us all.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 09, 2013, 11:50:35 AM
I believe that is an unfair opinion of the writer.

No one said anything about this in Tulsa's past. You went to school in Tulsa. Did you learn anything about the Tulsa Race Riot? I didn't. Until Chapman start researching this, I would bet that only like ten people new anything about this guy. Historians sometimes learn embarrassing history and this was a story that I think should be told.

People tell me that I should ignore it. I should focus on the positives of Brady. People keep saying that many things are named after people who did bad things.

How is that an excuse to hide the truth? Now that I know about Brady, I don't think the same about him. I can't just forget about it. I used to love Michael Jackson's music. Then I learned that he fondled little boys. Now when I hear one of his songs, I don't like it as much.

If nothing happens to the name of the street, it will have still been worth it for the community to have learned about Brady. It is a teachable lesson and shouldn't be covered up just because it happened a long time ago, or it hurts an area brand, or our history has others guilty of bad behavior.

I applaud This Land Press for educating us.  

My awareness of the riots dates at least back to high school, though it was not very in-depth other than it happened and what event(s) precipitated the riots.

My problem stems from the idea that Tate Brady was the worst Tulsan who ever lived and that there are plenty of other institutions, streets, and buildings named for people who likely shared the common views of the era.  Why the singular focus on Brady?  Why not dig into the deep dark pasts of the Lorton, McBirney, Mayo, Cosden, and Phillips, and etc. families?

Everyone else points out correctly that sometimes burying a name is just as bad as ignoring the events which happened. 

I noticed while walking around on Tulsa Tough weekend, there are small memorial plaques embedded in the sidewalks in the Brady District noting where structures once stood which were destroyed in the riots.  The John Hope Franklin Reconciliation Park was supposed to be an adequate memorial in the area to the riots and keep them from being white-washed.

If Brady and other early leaders were horrible people, let those who want that fact in the forefront erect some sort of monument to perpetuate that along Brady Street, but don't ruin the hard work and sweat equity of others by destroying a brand that has taken 30-plus years to develop. 

I'd love to hear the opinion of some of the original stake-holders.  If David Sharp, Peter Mayo, and others who took all the risks to preserve and develop the area early on want to change it, more power to them.  I simply don't think you jump in and change something that quite a few people are heavily vested because some publication runs a story suggesting the area's namesake was racist, based on anecdotal accounts from 80 or 90 years ago.

Do you really think someone is going to pay for monuments running down Tate Brady? And wouldn't such a monument just do more to honor him?

Are their examples of such plaques elsewhere?

Maybe I just missed the statues about Bernie Madoff, (he gave big bucks to charity), Pete Rose (most hits ever in baseball), and Woody Allen (a house full of Academy Awards).

What does This Land Press, et al hope to achieve by renaming the street, district, etc?  From my perspective it will be little more than a token gesture that leads to a group of folks standing in a circle at a ribbon cutting with no real change.

Why don't you venture into the poorest parts of north Tulsa that have been most affected by the division of this city and ask them how the renaming of a street and entertainment district they can't afford to step foot in changes their life?  I can guarantee few of them could give a damn about the Brady District, they're more concerned about where their next meal and rent check will come from. 

In lieu of attacking something that appears to be mere grandstanding why don't these individuals work for real change?

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 09, 2013, 03:40:35 PM
Do you really think someone is going to pay for monuments running down Tate Brady?

You obviously have some strong personal feelings about this.  You could start a fund to erect such a monument.

I favor leaving it as it is. What's done is done.

Quote from: sauerkraut on July 09, 2013, 04:48:30 PM
I favor leaving it as it is. What's done is done.

Well...glad that's settled.

::)

Quote from: sauerkraut on July 09, 2013, 04:48:30 PM
I favor leaving it as it is. What's done is done.

More proof that I am on the right side of this.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 09, 2013, 03:40:35 PM
Do you really think someone is going to pay for monuments running down Tate Brady? And wouldn't such a monument just do more to honor him?

Are their examples of such plaques elsewhere?

Maybe I just missed the statues about Bernie Madoff, (he gave big bucks to charity), Pete Rose (most hits ever in baseball), and Woody Allen (a house full of Academy Awards).

Do you really expect small businesses located along Brady Street to have to pay for new signage, stationery, business cards, sales slicks, and any other materials they may have with an address printed on it?  What about the inconvenience of needing to change account information and any legal documents?  All this for the sake of appeasing a very small group of people who really wouldn't have cared in the first place if some columnist with a personal agenda hadn't stirred this bucket in the first place.

Even though my family did not live here at the time, I'm sorry and ashamed the race riots happened in Tulsa 90+ years ago.  I still see no reason current inhabitants of the "district" or who are located on Brady Street should be inconvenienced to appease the feelings of a very small minority.  People need to quit looking for something to be offended by all the damn time.

Quote from: Conan71 on July 09, 2013, 06:07:22 PM
Do you really expect small businesses located along Brady Street to have to pay for new signage, stationery, business cards, sales slicks, and any other materials they may have with an address printed on it?  What about the inconvenience of needing to change account information and any legal documents?  

Was this a factor in the new interstate 44? Dozens of businesses were forced to move. I suppose we shouldn't build anything that inconveniences a few small businesses.

We change names all the time. Boulder Park became Veteran's Park and Central Park became Centennial Park recently. I posted 200 examples in Tulsa's history earlier. Philbrook school of Art became Philbrook Museum in 1987. Southwestern Bell became AT&T.

Most wives take the husband's name upon marriage. I am sure the inconvenience of needing to change account information and legal documents don't stop them.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 09, 2013, 06:17:39 PM
Was this a factor in the new interstate 44? Dozens of businesses were forced to move. I suppose we shouldn't build anything that inconveniences a few small businesses.

Apples and oranges..  physically moving a business due to an actual need.   in the case of I-44, I'm sure the US government gave the businesses in the imminent domain a more than fair price.
vs   changing a street sign, legal documents, signage, stationary for warm fuzzys

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 09, 2013, 06:17:39 PM
We change names all the time. Boulder Park became Veteran's Park and Central Park became Centennial Park recently. I posted 200 examples in Tulsa's history earlier. Philbrook school of Art became Philbrook Museum in 1987. Southwestern Bell became AT&T.

how many homes and businesses were affected by changing the name of a park?
how many of the 200 examples were part of the 1901 street survey, stardardization & gridification.  the same year Brady street got its name.
Who forced Philbrook school of art to change its name?
I originally bought my cell phone via AT&T in 1998.   
    Then it became Cingular
    Then it became AT&T.
    Cingular again?
    Then back to AT&T.
If those geniuses at AT&T think changing their name all the time is good business.  Good for them.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 09, 2013, 06:17:39 PM
Most wives take the husband's name upon marriage. I am sure the inconvenience of needing to change account information and legal documents don't stop them.

There are a lot of weird marriage traditions.   But the times, they are a changing.
If the husband, tells his fiance.  Change your name, "or else".   I'm guessing there's a good chance, she'll opt for "or else"
The adoption of the husbands name signifies a "union."   This street thing is a "or else" demand.

I dunno.  It wouldn't hurt my feelings if we renamed it the "Tulsa Arts District"...
Maybe just in the district rename Brady St, "Artists Street."  Wouldn't start with the letter "B" but it would stack up nicely with "Archer" to the south and "Cameron Street" to the north...
Since I live on West Brady Street, it'd be a pretty big hassle to change all my checking, credit cards, bills, etc... and I guess we'd need to change Brady Heights too...

Compromise solution:  name the district after "Wayne Brady"... or would that be cheating?

(http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/files/2012/04/WayneBrady.jpg)

"B" Street.

The "B" district.

Quote from: AquaMan on July 09, 2013, 10:28:46 PM
"B" Street.

The "B" district.

I like it. We can say it was named after Aunt B from the old Andy Griffith show.

My mother was a stunt double for her. Whenever you saw Aunt B jumping a fence or in a bar fight, that was my Mom.

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 09, 2013, 07:56:16 PM
The adoption of the husbands name signifies a "union."   

Exchange of property.

Quote from: rdj on July 09, 2013, 03:54:57 PM
In lieu of attacking something that appears to be mere grandstanding why don't these individuals work for real change?

Because "Causes" are easy and moral superiority "feels" good.  If you can yell about it, print stickers, or handbills you get an instant feeling of accomplishment and superiority.

"Look at me, I'm the bringer of light."

If you ever make the mistake of hiring someone with 20 bumper-stickers, you quickly learn that they are far more comfortable moaning and groaning than they are at working. They are better at decrying all of the bad around them than they are at creating any good.  They have an intense need to express their moral or perceived intellectual superiority.  It is almost impossible to refocus them.

When it comes to media, especially young media offerings (new companies), the drive to "make a mark" is far more powerful than the reasoning behind the cause, solid facts, or any repercussions.  The fact that we are discussing it (positive and negatively) is collateral for them.  For example, Matt Drudge had(s) an atrocious defamatory website that any 12yo with a Mac could create.  All it did was aggregate news stories that he agreed with, and sensationalize headlines.  Because of that formula, he has 2 million unique views a day, and tens of millions of daily viewers.  This Land Press writes some very in-depth stories and employs good photography.  The format is very different than Drudge, however the goal is the same.  As a media outlet they have lots of opportunity in sensationalizing stories about the history of Oklahoma (there's plenty of ammo). This gives them the power to stir tensions, and motivate new causes.  It is not a new formula for success in media, and you can't blame them for it. When something as powerful as renaming a city street comes around, expect them to latch on like a tick.  If successful, it would be an accomplishment that would elevate them from a marginal publisher to the top tier, and garner national coverage.

Quote from: TulsaRufnex on July 09, 2013, 08:10:18 PM
I dunno.  It wouldn't hurt my feelings if we renamed it the "Tulsa Arts District"...
Maybe just in the district rename Brady St, "Artists Street."  Wouldn't start with the letter "B" but it would stack up nicely with "Archer" to the south and "Cameron Street" to the north...
Since I live on West Brady Street, it'd be a pretty big hassle to change all my checking, credit cards, bills, etc... and I guess we'd need to change Brady Heights too...

Compromise solution:  name the district after "Wayne Brady"... or would that be cheating?

(http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/files/2012/04/WayneBrady.jpg)

I hadn't even thought of residents who live on Brady Street to the west of downtown.  Checking the maps, it looks as if it runs out to Sand Springs, if a bit intermittently.  It also re-apears out near Catoosa.

RM, my question is: When will people who were not victims of the race riot quit demanding additional reparations from people who did not perpetrate the race riot?

It would be interesting to have someone like Tulsa's national debate champ chime in on one or both sides.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Tulsa_Booker_T_Washington_debater_Arel_Rende_wins_national/20130626_11_A2_CUTLIN58102?subj=1

Quote from: Conan71 on July 10, 2013, 11:34:01 AM
RM, my question is: When will people who were not victims of the race riot quit demanding additional reparations from people who did not perpetrate the race riot?

Who is demanding reparations?

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 12:03:40 PM
Who is demanding reparations?

you are?

Reparation (per Merriam Webster):
1  a repairing or keeping in repair
2
   a : the act of making amends, offering expiation, or giving satisfaction for a wrong or injury
   b : something done or given as amends or satisfaction
3.  the payment of damages

I am not asking for anything to be given. I am not addressing victims in any way.

I am supporting a name change for a street.

Brad street. It stands for BRady Arts District.

:)

/problemsolvedandyetnot

I am still waiting for a response to my question...

Is there anything anyone could have done that would warrant a name change? Anything.

Why won't any of you answer this?

Quote from: sgrizzle on July 10, 2013, 12:21:21 PM
Brad street. It stands for BRady Arts District.

:)

/problemsolvedandyetnot

How much does it costs to knock the "Y' off the signs?

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 12:24:30 PM
How much does it costs to knock the "Y' off the signs?

A can of spray paint and a city worker on overhead.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 12:21:52 PM
I am still waiting for a response to my question...
Is there anything anyone could have done that would warrant a name change? Anything.
Why won't any of you answer this?

I did.  See reply #93.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 12:19:42 PM
I am not asking for anything to be given. I am not addressing victims in any way.

I am supporting a name change for a street.

Let me try to summarize the different viewpoints

• * The sign makes me feel bad.  And you should feel bad.  It needs changed/fixed/repaired (reparation)
• * If it ain't broke, why fix it
• * The sign is historical (according to an article that doesn't cite any references)..  It serves to remind us the of dark times.. that we don't hope to repeat
• * The sign is historical (according to an article that doesn't cite any references)..  It serves to remind us the of dark times.. that we don't hope to repeat...  Change the sign.. we'll remember via other methods (I promise)
• * I want the street's name changed for reasons completely unrelated to the controversy (not a winning argument)
• * I don't care one way or the other

Should this be a survey question?

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 10, 2013, 01:01:57 PM


Should this be a survey question?

Good idea

Quote from: Townsend on July 10, 2013, 01:02:59 PM
Good idea

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20103

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 12:03:40 PM
Who is demanding reparations?

Uh, you don't view re-naming a street or district for the stated reasons a reparation?  What would you characterize it as?

Quote from: Conan71 on July 10, 2013, 01:51:33 PM
Uh, you don't view re-naming a street or district for the stated reasons a reparation?  What would you characterize it as?

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 12:19:42 PM
I am not asking for anything to be given. I am not addressing victims in any way.

I am supporting a name change for a street.

I put option #5 on the poll for RM
"I want the street's name changed for reasons completely unrelated to the controversy"

aka, a street needs renamed, and I randomly pick Brady!  That's my new reason and that's what I'm sticking to.

It has one vote.

Quote from: rdj on July 09, 2013, 03:54:57 PM
What does This Land Press, et al hope to achieve by renaming the street, district, etc? 

They already had the new name picked out, we just missed it:

The true hero of the Tulsa Riots was A.J.Smitherman who preached law and order and condemned the mob.
He was editor of the Tulsa Star and fled to Boston, after the mob burned down his home.  He was dogged by the charge of inciting a riot.
I worked in Smitherman's newspaper office when I was sixteen, but only learned of his heroism within the last twenty years.
I think that the Brady district should be named after Smitherman and that a space be set aside as a museum to honor him. 
http://thislandpress.com/09/16/2011/true-hero

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 12:24:30 PM
How much does it costs to knock the "Y' off the signs?

Michael - I answered your question very clearly and supported my opinion.  I did this three or four pages ago.

You are clearly emotionally invested in this issue as you have lost your usually posting demeanor.  You consistently ignore or chastize others points (oh, so because we don't rename Washington we don't rename anything!  Ignoring Conans repeated point about no actual evidence), build straw men (we renamed Pearl street/I44 moved businesses), and repeat the same thing.

The basic points against the name change are:

1) there is no real evidence condemning Brady, just anecdote.
2) if the stake holders who have branded the district dont want to change it - why undue the brand?
3) changing the name doesn't FIX anything, just like the race memorial didn't fix anything or renaming Pearl to Peoria didn't fix anything.  I this a meaningless gesture for cause-heads.
And 4) a cranky poster who doesn't live here says let it be.

For the discussion to have point, we need to address those issues or you won't start to change their minds.  Not trying to be a jerk, but your position has become entrenched and lost your usually persuasion.

Thanks for mentioning my usual persuasion. I really am not that invested in this topic, I am just keeping conversation going. I am entitled to my opinion and this ain't the first time I am in the minority.

I took the other side because I thought the arguments were lame. We can't change because some people had already started using Brady as a brand. We shouldn't do anything because it happened a long time ago. Why change unless we have absolute undoubtable proof that he was a bad guy? We should focus on only the good and ignore the bad of him. Haven't we already done enough for victims by building a reconciliation park? Other people in our past did other bad things so why should we do anything about this guy?

Take each of those points separately and they don't persuade me.

Brady was a very powerful guy. He had a shop that did $3 million a year in sales. In today's dollars, that is a $60 million store (I doubt there is any store in Tulsa that sells $60 million a year now). He owned the biggest hotel in town and controlled most of the property development. He was as powerful as Kanbar, David Sharp, and the TDA are all combined in comparison. He convinced the police chief to open the jail and give him 17 people that his mob tortured.

I am not surprised that more complete recordings of his behavior don't exist. If you went against a person that powerful, you wouldn't live long, especially when he was best friends with the police chief. I think he was amazingly cruel and did whatever he wanted. I bet most Tulsans were afraid of him.

I don't like that he has a street named after him. I am sure that the people who named the street back then had very little say in opposing it.

Call me wrong for seeing an opportunity to do something about it. I didn't start this conversation but feel it is a talk our community needs to have. I don't expect anything to happen and I am OK with that. That doesn't make me wrong.

I am not afraid of change and it is never too late to do the right thing.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 07:19:29 AM
I like it. We can say it was named after Aunt B from the old Andy Griffith show.

My mother was a stunt double for her. Whenever you saw Aunt B jumping a fence or in a bar fight, that was my Mom.

Hmmmm....I am pretty sure Aunt B never got into a bar fight!  I watched all those shows as they were shown for the first time.  Not a whole lot of drinking going on by anyone - at least on screen.  I think Opie got plastered from time to time after the cameras shut down because of the crushing disappointment of only ever catching that one tiny little fish!  And then, to add insult to injury, he drops it on the road!!

I could get on board with changing the name, but would submit a bigger item would be to change the name of Custer County - named for George Custer.  I think the massacre of dozens of women and children is worse than torturing 17 people, as bad as that is, who ultimately survived.  Many shot in the back as they tried to run away.  (Black Kettle's camp on the Washita River).

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 08:11:08 PM
Thanks for mentioning my usual persuasion. I really am not that invested in this topic, I am just keeping conversation going. I am entitled to my opinion and this ain't the first time I am in the minority.


Brady was a very powerful guy. He had a shop that did $3 million a year in sales. In today's dollars, that is a $60 million store (I doubt there is any store in Tulsa that sells $60 million a year now). He owned the biggest hotel in town and controlled most of the property development. He was as powerful as Kanbar, David Sharp, and the TDA are all combined in comparison. He convinced the police chief to open the jail and give him 17 people that his mob tortured.

I am not surprised that more complete recordings of his behavior don't exist. If you went against a person that powerful, you wouldn't live long, especially when he was best friends with the police chief. I think he was amazingly cruel and did whatever he wanted. I bet most Tulsans were afraid of him.

I read that article, and went to the digital images of the "evidence" Chapman linked to on it.  Not once did I see Brady's name actually associated with the wobbly incident.  Did I miss it somewhere? Or are you just taking the mention of the incident in Chapman's article as evidence of Brady being involved?  In fact, the only thing I saw directly connecting Brady to any wrong doing at the time was that he admitted in court records to once being a member of the KKK.  Now, granted, after digging through the first several items without seeing any connection, I finally gave up and decided that if there were that many bs accusations in the article just to start off with, then I would have to verify every single claim in it, and I just don't have the time for that.  But if you can point out the actual evidence showing Brady did any of these things, I would appreciate it.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2013, 08:11:08 PM

Brady was a very powerful guy. He had a shop that did $3 million a year in sales. In today's dollars, that is a $60 million store (I doubt there is any store in Tulsa that sells $60 million a year now). He owned the biggest hotel in town and controlled most of the property development. He was as powerful as Kanbar, David Sharp, and the TDA are all combined in comparison. He convinced the police chief to open the jail and give him 17 people that his mob tortured.

Ever heard of this little c-store chain called QuikTrip?  If they were public they'd be on the Fortune 500 with a worth exceeding a billion dollars.  If I recall correctly Brady was in the hotel business?  I doubt the Mayo does $60MM a year in revenue, possible with the banquet & bar space and if you included the revenue from the apartments.  The Oklahoma owned Mathis Brothers store does near $100M a year in revenue.  I have multiple customers in various fields that do north of $60MM a year in revenue.  Point being, that isn't a big number.

As an aside, I wouldn't suggest that Kanbar is all that powerful these days, David Sharp is powerful thru his land holdings and TDA is powerful because they carry the big stick of eminent domain and the ability to sit on a property for as long as they choose.  A better comparison might have been Cadiuex or Kaiser, but I'm sure you don't want to link their names with Brady.

Quote from: rdj on July 11, 2013, 08:54:06 AM
Ever heard of this little c-store chain called QuikTrip?  If they were public they'd be on the Fortune 500 with a worth exceeding a billion dollars.  If I recall correctly Brady was in the hotel business?  I doubt the Mayo does $60MM a year in revenue, possible with the banquet & bar space and if you included the revenue from the apartments.  The Oklahoma owned Mathis Brothers store does near $100M a year in revenue.  I have multiple customers in various fields that do north of $60MM a year in revenue.  Point being, that isn't a big number.

As an aside, I wouldn't suggest that Kanbar is all that powerful these days, David Sharp is powerful thru his land holdings and TDA is powerful because they carry the big stick of eminent domain and the ability to sit on a property for as long as they choose.  A better comparison might have been Cadiuex or Kaiser, but I'm sure you don't want to link their names with Brady.

Is there a single QuikTrip pulling in $60 mil / year?
QuikTrip is a huge regional chain.
Brady's store was one store in Tulsa, OK

Peter Mayo (owner and name-giver of Brady Theater) chimes in.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Brady_Theater_owner_Peter_Mayo_says_hes_flexible_about/20130711_11_A1_Teonro428860

Quote
Brady Theater owner Peter Mayo says he's flexible about name but would rather not change
The owner of the Brady Theater said Tuesday he would rather not change the name of the iconic venue but would consider doing so if the city changed the name of Brady Street.

"I would be flexible with whatever decision might be made" regarding renaming the street, Peter Mayo said. "It might be something where it would be like Prince, 'the artist formerly known as.'

"This would be the Something Theater, formerly known as the Brady Theater, and it would have to appear that way on all of our contracts that go out."

The City Council has asked the Brady Property Owners Association to lead a discussion on whether the street should be renamed after a group of citizens called for the change.

The street is named after Tate Brady, an early Tulsa businessman who was also a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

Mayo said the council needs to get input from the entire Tulsa community - not just those who live and work in the Brady District.

"It's obviously too expensive to put this up for a vote, but if they could put it up for a vote, let the citizens of Tulsa decide," Mayo said. "I'm all about democracy, and if the citizens decide there needs to be a change, then so be it."

Mayo said he had no idea how Brady Street got its name when he purchased what was then known as the Municipal Theater in 1978.

The building had been the city's performing arts center.

During the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot, authorities temporarily held black residents in the theater - which was then named Convention Hall.

Mayo said that when he bought the theater, the surrounding area "was all industrial and homeless. It had been abandoned by any entrepreneurs. The movers and shakers of the world had totally turned their backs on this neighborhood and this part of the world."

Mayo originally named the theater The Old Lady on Brady before simplifying it to Brady Theater in 1980.

"We had no idea who (Tate) Brady was," Mayo said. "It was a street. That's all that we knew. If it had been on Archer (Street), it would have been The Old Lady on Archer."

Mayo said he understands why business owners who have invested in the Brady District would be opposed to changing the street name.

"If we have to change our name down here, so be it," he said. "But I would rather not just for business reasons. ...

"It will be a hassle for us. There is no doubt about that because the artists - like Eddie Vedder who lives in Hawaii - know this place as the Brady Theater."

And there is this as well from the Tulsa World as other stake-holders in the area chime in.  It's obvious those who are most impacted by this think it's a big to-do about nothing.  It would be great if Miranda Kaiser would join us for a few minutes at lunch to explain why she thinks its "...a load of bollocks".

It's real easy to say it should be changed if you do not live or have a business in the area or on the street because the asspain of enduring an address change simply doesn't register. 

Ultimately, I say leave it up to the residents and business owners.  If they feel the risk of alienating 20 or so customers who won't do business with them so long as it's called the "Brady District" or they are still located on "Brady Street" that's their prerogative.  And so far, the group (another "social justice" group) that's pushing for the name change only seems to number about 20 or so people.

QuoteNikki Warren and Kim Grayson are black, and they make their living in the Brady Arts District, just off Brady Street, where they own MOCHA Butterfly boutique at 216 N. Main St.

So they've heard the talk about changing the name of Brady Street, and they don't like it. Not a bit. Even if the street is named after a former Ku Klux Klan member.

"I just think changing the name is erasing the past, and I think it is important to embrace the past," Grayson said. "Everybody has a past. You embrace it - the only way you can learn and grow is to learn from your past."

Warren said the Brady Arts District has become so well-known locally and beyond that to tinker with its name would hurt businesses in the area.

"I think for business owners, being identifiable is a very big idea, so we prefer to keep the (street) name the same," she said.

Brady Street is named after Tate Brady, one of Tulsa's early businessmen. Over the years Brady has become controversial for his association with the Ku Klux Klan, and some people allege that he helped organize the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot.

After a group of citizens requested that the street's name be changed, the City Council asked the Brady Property Owners Association to lead discussions on the proposal.

The association's recommendations won't be known for several months, but individual business owners in the district seem more than willing to talk about the issue.

The World visited a half dozen businesses along or near Brady Street on Tuesday, and not one business owner expressed support for the name change.

"What a load of bollocks," Miranda Kaiser, owner and manager of Laffa Medi-Eastern Restaurant and Bar, 111 N. Main St., said of the proposed name change.

Kaiser said she told a recent meeting of Brady Arts District property and business owners that signs should be put up in the district that acknowledge Tate Brady's racist past but say "look at how far we have come."

"He would turn in his grave to see the eclectic, diverse, open-minded craziness that's going on in the Brady District," she said.

Grayson and Warren, like the other business operators interviewed by the World, stressed that renaming Brady Street would deny people the history they need to fully appreciate how far the district has come.

So they also propose putting plaques along Brady Street that would explain exactly who Tate Brady was.

They are certain, by the way, that he would be aghast at the district his name has become associated with nearly 90 years after his death.

"Because this area is so diverse, this would slap him in the face," Grayson said.

Stephanie Duvall, general manager of Caz's Chowhouse and the Pub on Brady Street, said the proposal is a nonissue for her businesses "because the Brady District is the most diverse area in Tulsa."

"One of the things we pride ourselves on on Brady is that all walks of life feel comfortable here," she said.

Albert Cronheim is the general manager of the Mexicali Border Cafe at 14 W. Brady St. He has been in Tulsa 27 years and says he had never heard of Tate Brady before renaming Brady Street was proposed.

"Most of my customers don't know who he is, and that is from all ethnic backgrounds," Cronheim said. "Basically, nobody cares. This is a small group" that is pushing for the change.

Chris Weiss, owner of Classic Cigars, 118 N. Boston Ave., said the city can change the name to whatever it wants, though "I would prefer they keep it the same."

"It's still going to be downtown Tulsa," he said. "They change the name of the streets down here all the time."

Janet Duvall - no relation to Stephanie Duvall - said the name change would be unfortunate.

Duvall, executive director of the nonprofit Tulsa Glassblowing School, 19 E. Brady St., said the majority of the members of the Brady Arts District Business Association with whom she has spoken believe in embracing the Brady name, "even though there are some negative aspects to it, because otherwise we have to look at all the other streets in Tulsa" for possible name changes.

Robert Fleishman, president of the Brady Arts District Business Association, said the roughly 100-member organization has taken no official position on the name change.

"No vote has been taken," Fleishman said, but "we have met, and we discuss it."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Many_Brady_Arts_District_business_owners_say_the_name/20130711_11_A1_CUTLIN371623

Thanks for posting that rdj and Conan. Interesting points of view and certainly helps me with any doubts I might have had.

I think the business owners would happily pay for some kind of plaque over changing everything else. I think it would be a nice gesture and definitely more than the group demanding the name change deserves.

My last name is available. And I have done nothing to residents or the City of Tulsa.
Oh wait! I haven't really done anything for residents or the City of Tulsa.  ???

OK....Never mind.  ::)

Do we really want to start going down that road where if someone or some group  is offended by a name we rush to change it. History is what it is. Let it be as the Beatles said in 1970.

Beatles Street. What a great idea!

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 11, 2013, 02:35:43 PM
Beatles Street. What a great idea!

It keeps the "B".

Let's go for it.

Quote from: Red Arrow on July 11, 2013, 08:44:20 PM
It keeps the "B".

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q73/s320x320/936856_10151665919371241_256975358_n.jpg)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/12/1222824/-The-Souls-On-In-and-Of-The-Street#

QuoteThe Tulsa Race Riot is the largest boil in the city's history--perhaps in America's--so it's tough to enjoy the splendor of the place without also thinking of white men in hoods burning black businesses to the ground in an area known as Black Wall Street.

I guess if you approach everything with a victim mentality, you might wander around thinking of lynch mobs and smoke filling the air on food truck Wednesday, not being able to enjoy your banh mi.  Personally, I'm not wired that way.  If I really wanted to wax on the race riot I would go to the reconciliation park, which is another point Friedman completely ignores. That park was supposed to be the final reparation, the salve on the wound.

QuoteThing is, however Brady's supporters want to minimize his Klan association, how much area residents, mostly white, have moved on, Tate Brady is the wrong name at the wrong time for Tulsa's newest shining community--the most vibrant in the state--especially if the reasons for not changing it are mostly covered in shopworn cliches about political correctness gone amok and/or because one knows an African American who's not offended.

I'm not a Tate Brady supporter.  I suspect the merchants in the area and others who think like me are not either.  I support the brand that is the Brady District, and I support the merchants and residents who do not wish to go through a name change.

Frankly, I don't understand the obsession with singling Brady out in the first place.  Other prominent Tulsans of the day were members of the KKK as well.  These were people who grew up with a frontier mentality, they didn't grow up in a settled, gentrified, and civilized setting as we all did.  Brady's father is reputed to have fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War.  Although Brady's views (assuming he was racist in nature) may be abhorrent in modern society, back in the day would have been completely acceptable.  It's said he eventually disassociated himself from the KKK, perhaps his views changed or the KKK became too radical for him.  I don't think anyone can really answer that.

I was born during the time the CRA's were passed, and most of the posters here were born or grew up post-CRA so most of us have never really been taught anything but racial tolerance. We all evolve and our views evolve as we get older and meet more people who are different than ourselves.  I know my views on and tolerance of homosexuality and gay marriage have evolved quite a bit.  I can admit to being one of those who taunted and teased effeminate classmates back in school.  I'd hate for my entire life to be defined by the ignorance of my younger years.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 12, 2013, 07:49:14 AM
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/12/1222824/-The-Souls-On-In-and-Of-The-Street#

he had me at

Quote
Sparked by a marvelous story written in by Lee Roy Chapman in This Land Press (full disclosure: my girlfriend works there)

Quote from: Conan71 on July 12, 2013, 09:08:21 AM
I guess if you approach everything with a victim mentality, you might wander around thinking of lynch mobs and smoke filling the air on food truck Wednesday, not being able to enjoy your banh mi.  Personally, I'm not wired that way.  If I really wanted to wax on the race riot I would go to the reconciliation park, which is another point Friedman completely ignores. That park was supposed to be the final reparation, the salve on the wound.

Just wondering who Barry Friedman is and how he became so completely out of touch with reality?  And just pure stupid, to boot...?

That comment of his about the Tulsa Race Riot being perhaps the largest boil in America's history...geez...one can only hope he was stating that as a contrarian note with no real belief attached - but it is so astonishingly, profoundly dumb that the whole point is smeared beyond any hope of recognition or redemption.

Once again. Well said Conan. I remember reading somewhere about a Supreme Court Justice that had to distance himself from the KKK after he got to such a high profile position.

Yes ignorance and a victim of their time really is no excuse. But as a young man. I took up smoking because of friends and peer pressure. And if you look at it. Both had very long affects on participants lives.

Is it possible we name anything after our current governor?

Then imagine 100 years in the future... some sleuth journalist unearths what a staunch opponent of gay marriage Mary Fallin was, how she cheated on her husband, etc...   This gets everyone in a tizzy to get her name removed from everything.

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 12, 2013, 09:56:53 AM
Is it possible we name anything after our current governor?

Then imagine 100 years in the future... some sleuth journalist unearths what a staunch opponent of gay marriage Mary Fallin was, how she cheated on her husband, etc...   This gets everyone in a tizzy to get her name removed from everything.

It would only be possible in a Bizarro world environment where there is no logical thought processes at work.  Oh, wait...yeah, I guess we will be naming stuff after her...

Heck, just call it the "Brady Bunch" district- or say the name comes from "The Brady Bunch"-  instead of  Tate Brady... Better yet, Just say The district is named after Marsha Brady...  BTW was there not some democrat congress man named "Byrd" who was also a member of the KKK, he spent many decades in congress since he was a democrat he got a free ride. ::)

Quote from: Conan71 on July 12, 2013, 09:08:21 AM
I guess if you approach everything with a victim mentality, you might wander around thinking of lynch mobs and smoke filling the air on food truck Wednesday, not being able to enjoy your banh mi.  Personally, I'm not wired that way.  If I really wanted to wax on the race riot I would go to the reconciliation park, which is another point Friedman completely ignores. That park was supposed to be the final reparation, the salve on the wound.

I signed up to the Daily Kos yesterday.   They require 24hrs to pass between signing up and commenting..   Anyhow, I just addressed the "how can anyone enjoy themselves mentality" with this:

QuoteI visited Hiroshima a few years ago.   It's now a very modern and thriving city.   Everyone seemed quite capable of enjoying themselves despite the horrors that occurred there in 1945.   They do, however, have several very nice memorials and museums.

Tulsa has the John Hope Franklin Reconciliation Park for that very same purpose.

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 13, 2013, 02:54:00 PM
I signed up to the Daily Kos yesterday.   They require 24hrs to pass between signing up and commenting..   Anyhow, I just addressed the "how can anyone enjoy themselves mentality" with this:

Excellent!

Turn the issue into a parody-party.

Every year the merchants (or others), celebrate the district's diversity by holding a mock-gay marriage with someone from Majestic giving away Brady at the alter.

Name stays, people get to hold a party and celebrate diversity, and Brady's name/history is used to show how far we've come. 

Hooray.     

Add this to the book club's reading list:

"The Law And Morality Of Building Renaming" -
http://blurblawg.typepad.com/files/lmbr.pdf

If we have to change the name of the district, let's change it to the Founder's District.

It's pretty much moot now:

The Brady Arts District Owners Association will not change its name or lead a community discussion on whether the city should change the name of Brady Street, according to a letter issued by the association Monday.
"Rather than seeking to revise history, today's residents, visitors and merchants should regard the name as a demonstration of a new set of principles," the letter states. "It reminds us that what is today was not always so."

Though Councilor Henderson intends to proceed with making everyone feel better by pushing for the street name change.

Quote from: Conan71 on July 16, 2013, 02:08:22 PM
Though Councilor Henderson intends to proceed with making everyone feel better by pushing for the street name change.

I have to credit him with representing the wishes of his constituents, if it is indeed what his constituents want.

Quote from: patric on July 16, 2013, 03:26:38 PM
I have to credit him with representing the wishes of his constituents, if it is indeed what his constituents want.

He represents some people but not the northside blacks I work with. Most show little interest in the issue. The same little interest they show in the downtown area period.

Now, name a Jazz club after Dewey or LaFortune....you may have some problems.

But he opposes urban gardens, because he claims his constituency would just use them to grow pot.

He sure is good for Tulsa!

Well, damn the unintended consequences! Turns out Tulsa's "Burlington Street" was named for Burlington, Kansas which was named for Burlington, Vermont which was named for the Burling family which turns out were slave traders.   :o

I like the name "Bob Wills" street. I think it would be a cool addition to the throwback coolness of the whole area.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 29, 2013, 06:46:53 PM
I like the name "Bob Wills" street. I think it would be a cool addition to the throwback coolness of the whole area.

Main would be more appropriate since that's the street The Cain's is on.

Besides, I'm sure the Wills family traded slaves, fought Indians, or kept pygmies in their basement.

Quote from: Conan71 on July 29, 2013, 06:34:58 PM
Well, damn the unintended consequences! Turns out Tulsa's "Burlington Street" was named for Burlington, Kansas which was named for Burlington, Vermont which was named for the Burling family which turns out were slave traders.   :o

That is enough degrees of separation from Tulsa to not matter to me. I am sure you are at least three degrees of separation from Conan the Destroyer.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 29, 2013, 08:09:46 PM
That is enough degrees of separation from Tulsa to not matter to me.

So now we are just discussing "price".

Quote from: Red Arrow on July 29, 2013, 08:20:30 PM
So now we are just discussing "price".

:)

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 29, 2013, 08:09:46 PM
That is enough degrees of separation from Tulsa to not matter to me.

And it keeps the theme of naming our streets for something not related to Tulsa

Boston MA
Boulder CO
Cincinnati OH
Cheyenne WY
Detroit MI
Denver CO
Elgin IL
Frankfort CT
Greenwood AR
Peoria IL
Harvard
Yale
Xenophon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon)
Xanthus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthus_%28mythology%29)
...

Lewis = local businessman and "me monster" named the street after himself

I've got a fun street naming scheme idea..  communicable diseases:
Anthrax
Babesiosis
Cholera
Diphtheria
E Coli
Fifth (http://www.cdc.gov/parvovirusB19/index.html)
Gonorrhea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLRlbsBJhio)
Herpes or Hepatitis  (take your pick)
Influenza
Jamestown (http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/communicable/ArboviralDiseases/CaliforniaSerogroup.htm)
Kawasaki (http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/communicable/InvasiveBacteria/KawasakiSyndrome.htm)
Leprosy
Malaria
Norwalk
OA (Osteoarthritis), Obesity, Onchocerciasis   (not good O options... )
Powassan
Q (http://www.cdc.gov/qfever/)
Rabies
Shingles
Tetanus
Undulant
Varicella
West Nile
Xenotropic
Yellow (fever)
Zoster

Quote from: Red Arrow on July 29, 2013, 08:20:30 PM
So now we are just discussing "price".

Picking a street name is like picking a politician.
Gotta go with the lesser of two evils.

I still think "B" street is the best. It stands for whatever you want it to.

Quote from: AquaMan on July 29, 2013, 09:18:52 PM
I still think "B" street is the best. It stands for whatever you want it to.

...as long as it starts with the letter B   ;D

On the whole subject of street naming, RM, I've got to ask, how long has your family been in Tulsa?

http://www.tulsagal.net/2010/10/tulsas-street-names.html

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZRrqKbqqvtg/TLJv2_L7dEI/AAAAAAAAGYE/RS6xhPGe1EI/s1600/map.jpg)

I don't think I am a relative to Gus and Dan Patton. My cousin on my mother's side (who is into genealogy) says yes, but my uncle on my Dad's side says no.

Now that street naming is controversial, I say no. 

How about Buchanon St or Bush Street?
Bold St?
Brave St?
Bucolic?
Buffalo?

Bartlett Street

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 30, 2013, 08:41:46 AM
Bartlett Street

Egads.  Where is the barfing "smiley" when you really need it?

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 30, 2013, 08:41:46 AM
Bartlett Street

It's got "Stuff!"

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 30, 2013, 08:41:46 AM
Bartlett Street

Smokin'!

Quote from: swake on July 30, 2013, 10:32:37 AM
Smokin'!

Nice!

Has anyone ever looked into why Greenwood is named Greenwood?

Quote from: rdj on July 31, 2013, 08:56:02 AM
Has anyone ever looked into why Greenwood is named Greenwood?

Hartford AR
and
Greenwood AR

Source:   http://www.tulsagal.net/2010/10/tulsas-street-names.html

But like Burlington KS... who knows where Greenwood AR got the name.

Quote from: rdj on July 31, 2013, 08:56:02 AM
Has anyone ever looked into why Greenwood is named Greenwood?

Streets East of Main Street are generally named after streets east of the Mississippi:
Boston MA
Cincinnati, OH
Detroit, MI

Streets west of main go the other way
Boulder, CO
Cheyenne, WY
Carson, NV
Denver, CO

Quote from: rdj on July 31, 2013, 08:56:02 AM
Has anyone ever looked into why Greenwood is named Greenwood?

(http://reasonswhyimstillsingle.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/web_lee_greenwood1.jpg)

Greenwood Cultural Center says it was named after Greenwood, MS.  Which was named for Greenwood Leflore.

Quote from: carltonplace on July 31, 2013, 10:00:49 AM
Streets East of Main Street are generally named after streets east of the Mississippi:
Boston MA
Cincinnati, OH
Detroit, MI

Streets west of main go the other way
Boulder, CO
Cheyenne, WY
Carson, NV
Denver, CO

I'm well aware of the naming convention.  I was curious as to the source of the name and why it was chosen.

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 31, 2013, 09:24:13 AM
Hartford AR
and
Greenwood AR

Source:   http://www.tulsagal.net/2010/10/tulsas-street-names.html

But like Burlington KS... who knows where Greenwood AR got the name.

A quick Google search tells me Greenwood, AR was named for Judge Alfred B. Greenwood, a member of the Confederate Congress.

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=4626

Quote from: ex-riverman on July 31, 2013, 10:20:52 AM
Greenwood Cultural Center says it was named after Greenwood, MS.  Which was named for Greenwood Leflore.

Another quick Google search led to the bastion of internet authenticity Wikipedia which tells me Leflore, "...became a wealthy planter and amassed a huge estate, where slaves worked acres of cotton"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood_LeFlore

What are we renaming Greenwood?

Quote from: rdj on July 31, 2013, 10:35:19 AM
A quick Google search tells me Greenwood, AR was named for Judge Alfred B. Greenwood, a member of the Confederate Congress.

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=4626

Another quick Google search led to the bastion of internet authenticity Wikipedia which tells me Leflore, "...became a wealthy planter and amassed a huge estate, where slaves worked acres of cotton"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood_LeFlore

What are we renaming Greenwood?

Maybe at some point people will just take the bucking arrow out and quit searching for things to be upset about.

Quote from: rdj on July 31, 2013, 10:35:19 AM
A quick Google search tells me Greenwood, AR was named for Judge Alfred B. Greenwood, a member of the Confederate Congress.

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=4626

Another quick Google search led to the bastion of internet authenticity Wikipedia which tells me Leflore, "...became a wealthy planter and amassed a huge estate, where slaves worked acres of cotton"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood_LeFlore

What are we renaming Greenwood?

Hendersonville?

I wonder if he wishes he hadn't opened this can of worms?

There is a difference between a street named after a place somewhere else that was named after someone creepy and a street named for someone who was creepy here in Tulsa.

I don't care that Burling was a creep in Connecticut or the Greenwood was a confederate judge in Arkansas.

I do care that Tate Brady was a creep right here in Tulsa.

I don't share that sentiment and I find few who do. For instance, why would you let Lee School, named after a confederate general, off the hook just because Lee didn't live here?

The people at the time, ca 1917, obviously thought highly of the man and were perhaps making a statement about their racial and political preferences. It was an all white neighborhood at that time.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 31, 2013, 01:12:38 PM
There is a difference between a street named after a place somewhere else that was named after someone creepy and a street named for someone who was creepy here in Tulsa.

I don't care that Burling was a creep in Connecticut or the Greenwood was a confederate judge in Arkansas.

I do care that Tate Brady was a creep right here in Tulsa.

I think if you wanted to re-name a street in north Tulsa Jefferson Davis Avenue, it would create quite the shite storm.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 31, 2013, 01:12:38 PM
There is a difference between a street named after a place somewhere else that was named after someone creepy and a street named for someone who was creepy here in Tulsa.

I don't care that Burling was a creep in Connecticut or the Greenwood was a confederate judge in Arkansas.

I do care that Tate Brady was a creep right here in Tulsa.

Well, that's convenient.  ::)

I heard on the radio today that Mayor Bartlet (sic) is against re-naming Brady Street saying time would be better spent examining what parts of Tulsa are economically under-served.  You know, which parts aren't getting their "stuff".

Quote from: Conan71 on August 02, 2013, 01:43:55 PM
I heard on the radio today that Mayor Bartlet (sic) is against re-naming Brady Street saying time would be better spent examining what parts of Tulsa are economically under-served. 

That would be the entire city depending on what is being served economically.

Quote from: Conan71 on August 02, 2013, 01:43:55 PM
I heard on the radio today that Mayor Bartlet (sic) is against re-naming Brady Street saying time would be better spent examining what parts of Tulsa are economically under-served.  You know, which parts aren't getting their "stuff".

Mayor Bartlett's statement on Facebook:

"After hearing from local businesses owners about the amount of time and resources it would take to rename their business and change their addresses I am inclined to not support changing the name of Brady Street. Tulsa should not to try to erase it's past but rather we should learn from our mistakes and build an even stronger community. What do you think Tulsa?"

Bartlett. That guy's running for office isn't he? Sound like maybe some quid pro quo going on there?

I agree with Dewey on something

So... That's one.

Seriously, whatever your position on renaming Brady St./District, it was impossible not to chuckle at the discovery that newly preferred street name has slave trade connections.  I think the mayor's tone and approach to this issue is correct.

City Council will debate the potential change on Thursday even though most Tulsans and Brady Business members believe that we should not sweep our history under the rug. 

I recommend "Unity Avenue" which acknowleges the history, the progess we have made and still need to make and removes the name that is irritating to some.

Quote from: DTowner on August 02, 2013, 03:38:03 PM
Seriously, whatever your position on renaming Brady St./District, it was impossible not to chuckle at the discovery that newly preferred street name has slave trade connections.  I think the mayor's tone and approach to this issue is correct.

They just need to name it after me...I have no connections to any slave trade past or future!

Quote from: carltonplace on August 05, 2013, 08:57:56 AM
City Council will debate the potential change on Thursday even though most Tulsans and Brady Business members believe that we should not sweep our history under the rug. 

Ah, the good old days...




When Police Chief John Gustafson went on trial in July 1921, only one of the five counts dealt with the riot. The other four involved corruption in office, including the charge that an auto theft ring was being run out of the Police Department.

There were other problems. The chief of detectives was caught in flagrante delicto with a female prisoner on a desk at the police station. His No. 2 had to be periodically rescued from angry husbands - even more scandalously for the times, from angry black husbands - who objected to him "interfering with their women."

One officer punched out the rector of Trinity Episcopal Church, who had been arrested for "jay-driving."

Allegedly, a 17-year-old girl was held on a bogus vagrancy charge until her stepfather came up with the $20 he owed a cop.

It wasn't all about the police. A woman shot her ex-husband to death in a dispute over a sewing machine. A 13-year-old girl at Leonard was molested by her widowed father; the girl's adult sister said he did the same to her as a child.

In west Tulsa, and in most of Greenwood, people lived in unimaginable poverty ignored by the population at large. Small pox and venereal disease were rampant.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Randy_Krehbiel_Looking_back_at_Tulsas_sordid_past/20130805_11_a9_goingt484402?subj=1

In response to "I value honest history even if it offends", I think the point here is that no matter what the history (I greatly value truthful history too, and thanks to those who have posted enlightening links here), the historical account of the Brady family and what it represented in the history of Tulsa should not be celebrated in today's culture. The objection, the way I'm reading it, is in the celebration of the name by developing a street name into a "district" name, etc. (Which brings to mind, has Arlo's past been sufficiently researched to make sure even the Gutrhrie name would pass the muster of today's political correctness?)


..just my $0.02 worth. Your mileage may vary.

They tabled the vote until next week since there was a tie (only 8 councilors present this evening and indications were 4-4 without a 'formal' vote).  What a giant waste of time, but listening to the councilors, I'm not sure it will pass.  I don't know the leanings of the absent coucilperson (Lakin).

(the Joe Public speakers were a big circus...)

I thought Bynum and Blake gave very good speeches.
I'm going to agree with Henderson on something..   3 of the 4 unofficial nays were of the "my constituents are against it. sorry, I'm going to vote no"  I'll let the first guy slide since he was the first councilman to speak.   Other two:  pretty weak.

I was a "this is a waste of time", "don't whitewash the past", "it's now just a name"  guy
I certainly don't think changing the name is going to unite anyone.

That said,
Bynum & Blake have swayed my vote.

Quote from: BKDotCom on August 08, 2013, 11:21:42 PM
(the Joe Public speakers were a big circus...)

I thought Bynum and Blake gave very good speeches.
I'm going to agree with Henderson on something..   3 of the 4 unofficial nays were of the "my constituents are against it. sorry, I'm going to vote no"  I'll let the first guy slide since he was the first councilman to speak.   Other two:  pretty weak.

I was a "this is a waste of time", "don't whitewash the past", "it's now just a name"  guy
I certainly don't think changing the name is going to unite anyone.

That said,
Bynum & Blake have swayed my vote.

I think my biggest concern was for the shop owners and businesses down there and whether or not they'd feel the pressure to rename the district.  After listening, especially to what Blake had to say, while I'm not really for the change, I can say that I won't be upset if they choose to rename it.

The street name doesn't define the district.

Completely against this. While people were debating this last night I was at Guthrie Green watching a movie with people of all colors. That's how far we've come. No need for white guilt. It doesn't end racism and neither does naming a street after MLK only on the north side of Archer. Politics are lame, revitalization and an organic community is awesome.

Quote from: davideinstein on August 09, 2013, 07:09:05 AM
Completely against this. While people were debating this last night I was at Guthrie Green watching a movie with people of all colors. That's how far we've come. No need for white guilt. It doesn't end racism and neither does naming a street after MLK only on the north side of Archer. Politics are lame, revitalization and an organic community is awesome.

I agree with the above.
Bynum and Blake made much better arguments for renaming the street than race-baiting Henderson has.
Bynum and Blank made effective arguments without playing the race and/or reparation cards  (which is probably why they were so effective).

Anyone have any transcripts of what they said?

Under council rules, a tie vote would have been counted as a "no" vote.

What part of this do they not understand?

Lakin must feel he's on the hotseat. If I were him I would use your post as guidance. ;)

Quote from: BKDotCom on August 09, 2013, 09:23:44 AM
Anyone have any transcripts of what they said?

You can watch the whole 4 and a half hours on your computer...

http://tgovonline.org/

Click on demand, then go to the meeting. The councilors made comments at the beginning and at the very end.

Quote from: DolfanBob on August 09, 2013, 09:46:53 AM
Under council rules, a tie vote would have been counted as a "no" vote.

What part of this do they not understand?

I think the point is that they fully understand that rule.

Quote from: AngieBrumley on August 09, 2013, 02:55:07 PM
I think the point is that they fully understand that rule.

They took a vote and it failed.
What more is there to do?

I wonder if anyone has investigated the past of T.J. Archer?  Was he in the Klan? 

And what about Greenwood avenue being named for Greenwood Leflore?  I think we should change the Greenwood name back to Garrison - which it is named in the rest of the city.  We don't want anyone being offended by it. 

Of course then we can't have the Greenwood district, but hey, what's in a name.  Maybe they could put a plaque up on the new "Garrison" avenue pointing out it used to be Black Wall Street when it had another name.

This whole mess offends me, and I won't vote for my councilor again.

Quote from: patric on August 09, 2013, 03:36:18 PM
They took a vote and it failed.
What more is there to do?

Exactly.

Quote from: patric on August 09, 2013, 03:36:18 PM
They took a vote and it failed.
What more is there to do?

They went around the room and took closing remarks / informal vote.
There was no official vote.
Knowing that they didn't have the vote, they postponed the vote until next week.
Next week there will still only be 8 council-people in attendance.   not sure who will be missing next week (a was gonna vote yay, or a gonna vote ney).

Quote from: BKDotCom on August 09, 2013, 04:45:48 PM
They went around the room and took closing remarks / informal vote.
There was no official vote.
Knowing that they didn't have the vote, they postponed the vote until next week.
Next week there will still only be 8 council-people in attendance.   not sure who will be missing next week (a was gonna vote yay, or a gonna vote ney).

That's not what I gathered from the meeting last night.  At first Henderson and Patrick thought there would be one absent; then they realized there wouldn't be after polling the remaining councilors.

Henderson makes walking on 1 crutch look easy....!!

If it gets renamed, I suggest Burns Ave., after perennial candidate Accountability Burns, a/k/a E5, leader of the MARS EARS project, and whose skill at phonetic spelling is unmatched in this world or any other.

The renaming has already been chosen to Burlington as per the proposal.

Quote from: Hoss on August 10, 2013, 06:04:31 PM
The renaming has already been chosen to Burlington as per the proposal.

Thanks for your humorless reply. 

Quote from: Markk on August 10, 2013, 06:42:09 PM
Thanks for your humorless reply. 

Thank you.  I aim to please.

In that case, we should both be disappointed.

Quote from: Hoss on August 10, 2013, 08:25:55 PM
Thank you.  I aim to please.

Reminds me of a sign in a men's room:

We aim to please, your aim will help.

;D

Quote from: Markk on August 10, 2013, 05:36:24 PM
If it gets renamed, I suggest Burns Ave., after perennial candidate Accountability Burns, a/k/a E5, leader of the MARS EARS project, and whose skill at phonetic spelling is unmatched in this world or any other.

I vote for Baker. You know, "Hamp Baker says 'Drive with care' ".  (Had to edit, had "you'll get there faster" which wasn't painted on the car hoods, unless it was ones that had been changed to "Drive like he11, you'll get there faster.")

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/City_Council_OKs_compromise_on_Brady_Street_name/20130816_11_A1_CUTLIN698639

From Tate Brady to Matthew Brady...Good job...Now let's get on with it...

You know this won't be good enough, right?

Quote from: Gaspar on August 16, 2013, 08:24:55 AM
You know this won't be good enough, right?

How about we let it play out first before making an assumption...

I think this is a good compromise.

Everybody thinks they won. The definition of a good compromise.

The real winners:

Bartlett. He spoke up but didn't really take sides. Taylor was strangely quiet.
Brady businesses. Still Brady.
Henderson. Face saved. Constituents get some money for the memorial, some notoriety for our racist past and some vengeance.
This Land Press. Hey, look at us! We dug up some mud, threw it around and came out without a scratch! That's journalism, eh?
Lakin. What would he have done? We'll never know.
Ewing. Genius compromise and visibility for his next step up.
Tulsa. We can move on now.

Some losers:
Anything named after controversial figures from our past.

Quote from: TulsaRufnex Date:  July 9th, 2013I dunno.  It wouldn't hurt my feelings if we renamed it the "Tulsa Arts District"...
Maybe just in the district rename Brady St, "Artists Street."  Wouldn't start with the letter "B" but it would stack up nicely with "Archer" to the south and "Cameron Street" to the north...
Since I live on West Brady Street, it'd be a pretty big hassle to change all my checking, credit cards, bills, etc... and I guess we'd need to change Brady Heights too...

Compromise solution:  name the district after "Wayne Brady"... or would that be cheating?

(http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/files/2012/04/WayneBrady.jpg)

Okay.  I called it (or at least was closest)... what did I win?    :D

Quote from: AquaMan on August 16, 2013, 10:08:28 AM
Everybody thinks they won. The definition of a good compromise.

The real winners:

Bartlett. He spoke up but didn't really take sides. Taylor was strangely quiet.
Brady businesses. Still Brady.
Henderson. Face saved. Constituents get some money for the memorial, some notoriety for our racist past and some vengeance.
This Land Press. Hey, look at us! We dug up some mud, threw it around and came out without a scratch! That's journalism, eh?
Lakin. What would he have done? We'll never know.
Ewing. Genius compromise and visibility for his next step up.
Tulsa. We can move on now.

Some losers:
Anything named after controversial figures from our past.

Was this Blake's idea?

As per Tulsa World, "The name change was offered by Councilor Blake Ewing as an amendment to Councilor Jack Henderson's proposal..."

Patrick says he was the originator of the idea yet it wasn't his amendment. A hundred years from now Ewing will be the good guy in publications resurrecting the issue.

Wayne Brady. The whitest Black man I know of.  ;D
A close second would be Nick Cannon.

Quote from: AquaMan on August 16, 2013, 10:51:35 AM
As per Tulsa World, "The name change was offered by Councilor Blake Ewing as an amendment to Councilor Jack Henderson's proposal..."

Patrick says he was the originator of the idea yet it wasn't his amendment. A hundred years from now Ewing will be the good guy in publications resurrecting the issue.

I get the impression Ewing and Lakin cooked up this compromise.  

Quote from: AquaMan on August 16, 2013, 10:08:28 AM
Everybody thinks they won. The definition of a good compromise.

In my line of work, the definition of good compromise:  Everyone leaves pissed off.

19 forum pages, many news articles and interviews, countless social media entries, several city council meetings and dozens of impassioned speakers to go from Brady to Brady. Well done Tulsa!

Quote from: guido911 on August 16, 2013, 09:59:39 PM
In my line of work, the definition of good compromise:  Everyone leaves pissed off.

Yes!

I know a lot of people that aren't happy about this compromise.  They believe it is a joke.

I think the compromise is brilliant.

Here is the number of books right now for sale on Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Mathew+BRADY&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3AMathew+BRADY

Quote from: rdj on August 19, 2013, 10:56:39 AM
Yes!

I know a lot of people that aren't happy about this compromise.  They believe it is a joke.

They took my Wayne Brady idea, which was a joke. At least there is a chance Wayne Brady has been Tulsa unlike Matthew Brady.

Quote from: sgrizzle on August 19, 2013, 07:36:41 PM
They took my Wayne Brady idea, which was a joke. At least there is a chance Wayne Brady has been Tulsa unlike Matthew Brady.

Paul Tay said in his time at the podium that it was a joke. Who knows. At least we DO know that Paul Tay is a joke.

I'm good with this compromise.

It'd be great if this kind of time and emotion could be put into a project that would mean something.

I'm just curious what a tiny minority of Tulsans will find nearly 100 years in the past to have hurt feelings about next.

Quote from: AngieBrumley on August 20, 2013, 08:46:22 AM
Paul Tay said in his time at the podium that it was a joke. Who knows. At least we DO know that Paul Tay is a joke.

I'm good with this compromise.

Paul Tay emerged from hiding? I'm guessing it just has to be a serious issue to get his attention.
Did Biker Fox make a appearance?

Quote from: Conan71 on August 20, 2013, 09:23:21 AM
I'm just curious what a tiny minority of Tulsans will find nearly 100 years in the past to have hurt feelings about next.

Let's get digging folks.

;D

Ultimately, it was a contrived solution to a contrived problem.

Quote from: DolfanBob on August 20, 2013, 10:04:40 AM
Paul Tay emerged from hiding? I'm guessing it just has to be a serious issue to get his attention.
Did Biker Fox make a appearance?

He was at the rename Brady related things as well as capital improvements meetings.

OK. I can see people a little upset about this one. We should send their City Council all the information of how Tulsa glossed over took care of our renaming problem.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2419850/School-named-KKK-leader-refuses-change-despite-half-students-black-community-campaign.html

Quote from: DolfanBob on September 13, 2013, 09:11:41 AM
OK. I can see people a little upset about this one. We should send their City Council all the information of how Tulsa glossed over took care of our renaming problem.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2419850/School-named-KKK-leader-refuses-change-despite-half-students-black-community-campaign.html

Might be hard to find another "Nathan Bedford Forrest" to rename the school for.

It's no longer named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, the local murderous KKK guy... it's now named after, Nathan Bedford Forrest, the plumber in Wyoming!

Quote from: BKDotCom on September 13, 2013, 10:31:06 AM
Might be hard to find another "Nathan Bedford Forrest" to rename the school for.

It's no longer named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, the local murderous KKK guy... it's now named after, Nathan Bedford Forrest, the plumber in Wyoming!

NBF was actually a celebrity endorser who ended up shuttering the KKK (to their surprise).
Now, the number of other famous people named Forrest (with two r's) is somewhat limited...

I'm new to Tulsa and having learned about what happened in 1921, as well as Tate Brady's tarring the Union Workers, I think the lone issue of changing a street name to something other than "Brady" is worthy.

If you don't have a card to play in this game, get out; to the people that it matters to, it matters.  I saw where there are 31 street signs along Brady Street.  That's not many.  It's just the Art District.  Brady Heights will always be Brady Heights.

Keeping it Brady:  "Tulsa, keeping up with yesterday."

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 10, 2013, 07:44:02 PM
I'm new to Tulsa and having learned about what happened in 1921, as well as Tate Brady's tarring the Union Workers, I think the lone issue of changing a street name to something other than "Brady" is worthy.

If you don't have a card to play in this game, get out; to the people that it matters to, it matters.  I saw where there are 31 street signs along Brady Street.  That's not many.  It's just the Art District.  Brady Heights will always be Brady Heights.

Keeping it Brady:  "Tulsa, keeping up with yesterday."

Welcome to Tulsa!!  How you liking it so far?  The last couple weeks have been the absolute perfection of weather that makes putting up with the rest of the year worth it!   Almost....

I see you only have two posts so far....don't be a slacker...jump right in - the water's fine.  Well, except for the chlorine and the fluoridation....

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 10, 2013, 07:44:02 PM
I'm new to Tulsa and having learned about what happened in 1921, as well as Tate Brady's tarring the Union Workers, I think the lone issue of changing a street name to something other than "Brady" is worthy.

If you don't have a card to play in this game, get out; to the people that it matters to, it matters.  I saw where there are 31 street signs along Brady Street.  That's not many.  It's just the Art District.  Brady Heights will always be Brady Heights.

Keeping it Brady:  "Tulsa, keeping up with yesterday."

The decision was made to rename the street after someone else named Brady, so the street name is virtually the same.

While it might be "just a street name," changing the street name would eventually involve renaming the district, the theater, brady heights, etc.

Quote from: sgrizzle on October 10, 2013, 08:51:18 PM
The decision was made to rename the street after someone else named Brady, so the street name is virtually the same.

While it might be "just a street name," changing the street name would eventually involve renaming the district, the theater, brady heights, etc.

I totally disagree that it would have 'required' renaming the district or the theater.  Leave that up to the business people in the district.  The city can change the street name, but Brady District is too ingrained into native Tulsans to change that.  Plus it would make for a good story for visiting friends/relatives.  To at least watch their reaction anyway.

As of yesterday Google maps now labels Brady as
"W MB Brady St" and "E M.B. Brady St"

I dunno what's up with the MB M.B. discrepancy
http://goo.gl/maps/IGqeR

Quote from: Hoss on October 10, 2013, 09:17:04 PM
I totally disagree that it would have 'required' renaming the district or the theater.  Leave that up to the business people in the district.  The city can change the street name, but Brady District is too ingrained into native Tulsans to change that.  Plus it would make for a good story for visiting friends/relatives.  To at least watch their reaction anyway.

It is easier to force private entities to change than government. Brady Park become Guthrie Green and Brady Tavern became The Tavern, that is without a street name change.

FYI...."The Brady Bunch" is now just referred to as "The Bunch".....

Quote from: sgrizzle on October 10, 2013, 11:02:18 PM
It is easier to force private entities to change than government. Brady Park become Guthrie Green and Brady Tavern became The Tavern, that is without a street name change.

Those changes weren't voluntary?

Quote from: Townsend on October 11, 2013, 08:31:47 AM
Those changes weren't voluntary?

Just as voluntary as McDonalds dropping "super sizing"

Quote from: sgrizzle on October 10, 2013, 08:51:18 PM
The decision was made to rename the street after someone else named Brady, so the street name is virtually the same.

While it might be "just a street name," changing the street name would eventually involve renaming the district, the theater, brady heights, etc.

I don not agree.  The district name is a Federal issue, no?  The Brady Heights division is not something you can change no more than you can move a survey monument.  Brady Theater, so what... privately held.

Brady Street... a different animal.  They're changing it anyway.  Like I said... to some it would matter.  I understand that there is a brand issue, lots of money by a few people who hold sway with city hall, people who feel any loss of the "Brady" established name is potentially a $$ loss.  I doubt it.

Change the name to something else more meaningful and hold a parade.  Who wants to celebrate a civil war photographer?  That is a wasted effort I think we can agree.

As for other's who may have been somewhat involved in the 1921 and earlier events, it isn't like a major commerce street is named after them, is it?

Too much black or white; not "and".

Quote from: Breadburner on October 11, 2013, 07:06:00 AM
FYI...."The Brady Bunch" is now just referred to as "The Bunch".....

If the Brady Bunch was a SS unit that ushered the gates where railroad tracks ended, I am sure the name of the TV show would have been something else.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 10, 2013, 08:50:20 PM

Welcome to Tulsa!!  How you liking it so far?  The last couple weeks have been the absolute perfection of weather that makes putting up with the rest of the year worth it!   Almost....

I see you only have two posts so far....don't be a slacker...jump right in - the water's fine.  Well, except for the chlorine and the fluoridation....

The weather has been fine.  I have been away from Oklahoma for 35-years.  I came from the flatlands and saw how downtown Tulsa was developing.  I look forward to getting older (older) and seeing it grow.  It's like I showed up just as the steam was building.  It's a lovely town.

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 11, 2013, 10:17:45 PM
I don not agree.  The district name is a Federal issue, no?  The Brady Heights division is not something you can change no more than you can move a survey monument.  Brady Theater, so what... privately held.

Brady Street... a different animal.  They're changing it anyway.  Like I said... to some it would matter.  I understand that there is a brand issue, lots of money by a few people who hold sway with city hall, people who feel any loss of the "Brady" established name is potentially a $$ loss.  I doubt it.

Change the name to something else more meaningful and hold a parade.  Who wants to celebrate a civil war photographer?  That is a wasted effort I think we can agree.

As for other's who may have been somewhat involved in the 1921 and earlier events, it isn't like a major commerce street is named after them, is it?

Too much black or white; not "and".

How about just letting the issue drop?

It's been handled as much as the city cares to handle it.  They have ultimate jurisdiction over the name.  Honestly, most Tulsans would rather move on.  The race riot has been properly recognized and memorialized.  Why inconvenience and penalize those who have invested in the area just because some history reconstructionist wrote a poorly documented essay on Tate Brady's alleged associations almost 100 years ago?

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 11, 2013, 10:17:45 PM
I don not agree.  The district name is a Federal issue, no?  

No

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 11, 2013, 10:17:45 PMThe Brady Heights division is not something you can change no more than you can move a survey monument.  

It can be changed easier than a street name

I don not agree.  The district name is a Federal issue, no?  
No


The Brady Heights division is not something you can change no more than you can move a survey monument.  
It can be changed easier than a street name


Historic Districts are Federal designations.  To change the District to something else would take an act of Congress, like that would happen...

Brady Heights is part of documentation that exists in legal documents since 1918 or so.  To change that would be like changing the section number, I believe.  It is legal beyond.

Changing the name of a street is a simple affair.

Moving on would be easy.

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 12, 2013, 12:27:00 AM

Historic Districts are Federal designations.  To change the District to something else would take an act of Congress, like that would happen...

Only if it's a federal historic district, federal land, or under the NPS.  Otherwise, it's local.

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 10, 2013, 07:44:02 PM
I'm new to Tulsa and having learned about what happened in 1921, as well as Tate Brady's tarring the Union Workers, I think the lone issue of changing a street name to something other than "Brady" is worthy.

If you don't have a card to play in this game, get out; to the people that it matters to, it matters.  I saw where there are 31 street signs along Brady Street.  That's not many.  It's just the Art District.  Brady Heights will always be Brady Heights.

Keeping it Brady:  "Tulsa, keeping up with yesterday."

If this part of Tulsa offends you, either leave the area, stop patronizing it or get used to it. Making remarks about "if you don't have a card to play in this game, get out..." is a great remark at a dinner party and sure to get you attention as a cool, big city sophisticate but in reality is gibberish. Follow that rule and you likely have no business even commenting.

Are you an Afro-American who descended from victims of the riot? Are you a white descendent of the perpetrators? Are you a Union worker or descendant from those tarred? Are you even a taxpayer for the last 20 years who helped keep the area alive and develop it? Do you own a business in the area or in the district that is taxed to fund the ballpark? If you can't answer yes to those then, by your own rules, keep your attitude to yourself.

Your remarks to me are condescending and meaningless. I read and listened to many different viewpoints on the issue and made up my mind that it was not worth the effort unless we scrub the whole city clean of our history of racism, sin, greed, self interest and ignorance. I work in an office populated with predominantly black workers who live in north and west Tulsa who couldn't care less about the history of that area or the current clothes it wears.

However, I welcome you to our little backward burg and hope you stay long enough to realize we aren't stuck in a time warp, we merely require some updating here and there. Just like newcomers often do.

It's just one street.

So was Cincinnati. Now its Cincinnati south of the tracks and MLK north of the tracks. Confusing and divisive in nature.

I am in a minority that believes there should have been reparations for those who could show their descendants suffered monetarily from the riot. Many of the descendants of the perpetrators have gained financially in that their estates included properties that were enhanced by the riot or were in the Greenwood area. Businesses prospered that otherwise would have faced competition from the Greenwood proprietors. However, the records (and the history) are sketchy at best and it would be a huge and controversial undertaking.

We simply are no longer the same Tulsa that fostered the riot and at some point history must be acknowledged but not as a grudge. To do otherwise puts us in the middle east radical mindset that never forgives their ancestors sins.

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 13, 2013, 09:58:31 AM
It's just one street.

Exactly, so get over it.

Quote from: AquaMan on October 13, 2013, 11:35:25 AM
So was Cincinnati. Now its Cincinnati south of the tracks and MLK north of the tracks. Confusing and divisive in nature.

I am in a minority that believes there should have been reparations for those who could show their descendants suffered monetarily from the riot. Many of the descendants of the perpetrators have gained financially in that their estates included properties that were enhanced by the riot or were in the Greenwood area. Businesses prospered that otherwise would have faced competition from the Greenwood proprietors. However, the records (and the history) are sketchy at best and it would be a huge and controversial undertaking.

We simply are no longer the same Tulsa that fostered the riot and at some point history must be acknowledged but not as a grudge. To do otherwise puts us in the middle east radical mindset that never forgives their ancestors sins.

Perspective moment...how far back do we go to make things right?  Why stop at 1921?

Would your beliefs include the same consideration for the original residents of the country?  The African Americans as well as the European legacies were both beneficiaries of the raping, pillaging, stealing, and genocide from the previous 300 years - if they weren't, why were they in Oklahoma?  Why stop at 100 years?  Where SHOULD be the break point?


As for the middle east - well that one goes back way past 1,000 years...  We as a society and culture (Western European based) say that history is "done" - they should just get over it .   And the Israelis taking a page from the US playbook related to the Native Americans just keeps the cycle going.... and that has only been 60 years or so....

And don't forget the Armageddon Partiers!  They are quietly, in the background, advancing an agenda to 'you know what'...

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 14, 2013, 06:51:49 AM

Perspective moment...how far back do we go to make things right?  Why stop at 1921?

Would your beliefs include the same consideration for the original residents of the country?  The African Americans as well as the European legacies were both beneficiaries of the raping, pillaging, stealing, and genocide from the previous 300 years - if they weren't, why were they in Oklahoma?  Why stop at 100 years?  Where SHOULD be the break point?


As for the middle east - well that one goes back way past 1,000 years...  We as a society and culture (Western European based) say that history is "done" - they should just get over it .   And the Israelis taking a page from the US playbook related to the Native Americans just keeps the cycle going.... and that has only been 60 years or so....

And don't forget the Armageddon Partiers!  They are quietly, in the background, advancing an agenda to 'you know what'...

I understand your view and find it attractive. The problem for me is that I am aware of some Tulsa family's estates having taken an abrupt change due to the actions of progenitors involved with the riot whose families benefitted. They still benefit. The law at the time ignored the losses. The same with Native Americans here whose lives were taken for their property rights.

However, the raping and pillaging of Native Americans has at least been addressed over this last century by acknowledging sovereignty, mineral rights, and good faith government efforts to protect them from exploitation. The federal government did more than just rename streets and landscape some park land.

Nonetheless, there is no momentum or consensus for reparations and most people have reconciled themselves to that.

  I think it is too late for reparations.  But a street name, that is all guys, is not the whole brand of the Arts District.  And change it to something catchy like The PlayBoys Alley and you got the corner of Bob Wills & The Playboys.

  Then a big festive event that draws a zillion swing people to a grand event at the Brady Theater.

  We can live together.

  When I grew up outside of Shawnee I had Native American friends that had dirt floors, one family lived traditionally in the Summer by living in a crafted wickieup (sp).  While it took time, they are doing well with tribal income now.  Time can heal.

  Ouch, don't tar me.

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 14, 2013, 10:59:08 AM
 Then a big festive event that draws a zillion swing people to a grand event at the Brady Theater.

I am into swing dancing. Not on purpose. When I dance parts of my body are just prone to swinging.

Quote from: AquaMan on October 14, 2013, 10:10:17 AM
I understand your view and find it attractive. The problem for me is that I am aware of some Tulsa family's estates having taken an abrupt change due to the actions of progenitors involved with the riot whose families benefitted. They still benefit. The law at the time ignored the losses. The same with Native Americans here whose lives were taken for their property rights.

However, the raping and pillaging of Native Americans has at least been addressed over this last century 40 years or so, by acknowledging sovereignty, mineral rights, and good faith government efforts to protect them from exploitation. The federal government did more than just rename streets and landscape some park land.

Nonetheless, there is no momentum or consensus for reparations and most people have reconciled themselves to that.

FIFY!

And the "good faith" part of that is still open to discussion - really has NOT been any good faith on behalf of the Federal government - they more or less just got tired of running schools where they would put the Indian kids they took from their parents, so shut them down and left the kids at home.

When I was a kid, in the "white-eyes" schools, we were taught that one of the "evils" of Communism was that they took kids from their parents, put them in state run boarding schools and brainwashed them with dogma and propaganda.  And I would visit family (3rd and 4th cousins) whose kids had been taken from home and put in state (Federal) run boarding schools and were brainwashed with dogma and propaganda and punished (capital punishment was allowed then) when they spoke the language spoken at home.  Got me to wondering....


Actually, some of the tribes are now getting back at the "white-eyes" invaders.  They have partnered up with the Mafia to create the world of casinos we now enjoy.  Taking it back, one "pull" on the slot machine at a time....

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 14, 2013, 01:09:59 PM

They have partnered up with the Mafia to create the world of casinos we now enjoy.  Taking it back, one "pull" on the slot machine at a time....

  I'm not the only one that knows about the Mafia?  I think they migrated from NO & KC around 1970.  This could be another thread.  If anyone is willing to give money to the casinos, bet nothing smaller than $2 on slots.  Quarters are a waste... sure pennies payoff.

The payoffs come on those and larger, so I believe.  I watched a man stip a bunch of the $5 and up machines of 7 jackpots in a couple of hours.  His picture never showed-up on the wall even though he walked out with $17,000.  I think he more or less worked for the people.  PS: I'm usually wrong about this stuff, but not always.

Quote from: MyDogHunts on October 14, 2013, 07:38:34 PM
  I'm not the only one that knows about the Mafia?  I think they migrated from NO & KC around 1970.  This could be another thread.  If anyone is willing to give money to the casinos, bet nothing smaller than $2 on slots.  Quarters are a waste... sure pennies payoff.

The payoffs come on those and larger, so I believe.  I watched a man stip a bunch of the $5 and up machines of 7 jackpots in a couple of hours.  His picture never showed-up on the wall even though he walked out with $17,000.  I think he more or less worked for the people.  PS: I'm usually wrong about this stuff, but not always.

Got a lot of family in KC, some of whom were in the teamsters union in the 30's, 40's and 50's.  One Italian friend in particular told me how at the time he was young, every male child was made a 'job offer' of lifetime employment.  If yes, then you were in the business for life, if no, then you were out of the business for life (a civilian).  His brother opted for the lifetime employment...he declined.

TULSA - A private donor who promised to pay for the new Brady street signs has yet to come forward.

That means the City of Tulsa ended up footing the bill for the switch to M.B Brady Street.
Last year, Tulsa city councilors changed the street name to honor the Civil War photographer.

Initially, city leaders said a private donor would pay for the new project, but the donor never came forward. Tulsa's taxpayers paid $3,200 to install the new signs.  "When we change other street signs and name signs, and streets after people we don't hold the project up waiting on some pennies to come in to see the signs are going to be paid or not," District 1 Councilor Jack Henderson said.

City officials say the signs were paid out of the general fund, which covers most salaries and most day to say operations. It's money city leaders say they did not budget because they were under the impression that the funds would not come from the taxpayers.

Henderson'd be raising Hell if someone else had lied about a private donor.

Now, $3200 is "pennies".

Quote from: patric on January 30, 2014, 11:34:39 PM
TULSA - A private donor who promised to pay for the new Brady street signs has yet to come forward.

That means the City of Tulsa ended up footing the bill for the switch to M.B Brady Street.
Last year, Tulsa city councilors changed the street name to honor the Civil War photographer.

Initially, city leaders said a private donor would pay for the new project, but the donor never came forward. Tulsa's taxpayers paid $3,200 to install the new signs.  "When we change other street signs and name signs, and streets after people we don't hold the project up waiting on some pennies to come in to see the signs are going to be paid or not," District 1 Councilor Jack Henderson said.

City officials say the signs were paid out of the general fund, which covers most salaries and most day to say operations. It's money city leaders say they did not budget because they were under the impression that the funds would not come from the taxpayers.

Anyone check Henderson's phone records?

Send the bill to Lee Roy Chapman care of This Land Press.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 31, 2014, 09:04:07 AM
Send the bill to Lee Roy Chapman care of This Land Press.

LIKE

Quote from: Conan71 on January 31, 2014, 09:04:07 AM
Send the bill to Lee Roy Chapman care of This Land Press.

I agree. Take pride in your Firestorm LRC. Or does This Land Piss not bring in much Deniro?

Same here. Stupid name change that we all paid for precipitated by self serving interests. Newspapers and politicians come and go but it will always be Brady, and the Brady district.

Quote from: DolfanBob on January 31, 2014, 09:59:07 AM
I agree. Take pride in your Firestorm LRC. Or does This Land Piss not bring in much Deniro?

If I understand who the principals are in TLP, I believe there's some people who could afford to and should pony up since it was their agenda which led to this.  Hell, not even black shop keepers in the area cared about Tate Brady's past.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 31, 2014, 10:10:16 AM
Same here. Stupid name change that we all paid for precipitated by self serving interests. Newspapers and politicians come and go but it will always be Brady, and the Brady district.

If the "donor" made a deal to keep his name quiet, the deal would be dependent on both sides keeping their promises.

Henderson's looking for money for northside sidewalks, and the city is having to cut yet another quarter million check for the police corruption scandal, so money is not getting easier.

Quote from: patric on January 31, 2014, 10:54:04 AM
If the "donor" made a deal to keep his name quiet, the deal would be dependent on both sides keeping their promises.

Henderson's looking for money for northside sidewalks, and the city is having to cut yet another quarter million check for the police corruption scandal, so money is not getting easier.

Yep. Close to half a Million for 16 Months in Jail is not to shabby.

A real quick question. Does Uncle Sam and the State take a piece of the settlement?

Quote from: DolfanBob on January 31, 2014, 01:14:36 PM
Yep. Close to half a Million for 16 Months in Jail is not to shabby.

A real quick question. Does Uncle Sam and the State take a piece of the settlement?

I'd imagine the attorney will.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 31, 2014, 09:04:07 AM
Send the bill to Lee Roy Chapman care of This Land Press.

You win the internet for today.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 31, 2014, 09:04:07 AM
Send the bill to Lee Roy Chapman care of This Land Press.

They have some great articles and a beautiful creative graphic standard, however it seems that there is a lurking desperation that is killing them.  They are the most bi-polar publication I have ever read.

I'll see a link to an article or pick up a copy at a bar, to find lovely stories about individual Oklahomans and things I never knew about my state.  Other times, entire issues seem to be attempts to incite groups to protest. It would be one thing if they offered some balance, but they don't. 

I was discussing this with a friend a few months ago and she used the term The Bi-Polar Times to describe them.  It seems to be right on the money.

Unfortunately if you look at the current issue or their website, it seems they have lost most of their advertisers.  There are only a handful of businesses with ads.  Not nearly enough to keep production going.  You can only spin the barrel so many times before you find the bullet.

Quote from: Gaspar on January 31, 2014, 04:02:45 PM
You win the internet for today.

I'm not so sure that's a prize worth winning.

;D

Quote from: Gaspar on January 31, 2014, 04:23:10 PM
They have some great articles and a beautiful creative graphic standard, however it seems that there is a lurking desperation that is killing them.  They are the most bi-polar publication I have ever read.

I'll see a link to an article or pick up a copy at a bar, to find lovely stories about individual Oklahomans and things I never knew about my state.  Other times, entire issues seem to be attempts to incite groups to protest. It would be one thing if they offered some balance, but they don't. 

I was discussing this with a friend a few months ago and she used the term The Bi-Polar Times to describe them.  It seems to be right on the money.

Unfortunately if you look at the current issue or their website, it seems they have lost most of their advertisers.  There are only a handful of businesses with ads.  Not nearly enough to keep production going.  You can only spin the barrel so many times before you find the bullet.

Tasha Ball recently left to join the new iteration of Urban Tulsa.  Her to-do listings are quite popular.

The stories I've heard from former employees don't paint a flattering picture of the management of the paper.

Quote from: rdj on February 03, 2014, 03:00:24 PM
Tasha Ball recently left to join the new iteration of Urban Tulsa.  Her to-do listings are quite popular.

The stories I've heard from former employees don't paint a flattering picture of the management of the paper.

It's kind of pandemic in alternative media.  Often publications start out of spite or the simple fact the publisher doesn't play well enough with others to make a steady income any other way.  I wish I could keep count of all the pubs which have come and gone since my days with UT when it first started.  Too many to count.

Langdon Publishing does seem to be an exception.  My ex was with them for 10+ years and they treated her great.  They just keep on going and raking in the $$ while print is supposed to be a dying form of media.

Quote from: Gaspar on January 31, 2014, 04:23:10 PM
They have some great articles and a beautiful creative graphic standard, however it seems that there is a lurking desperation that is killing them.  They are the most bi-polar publication I have ever read.

I'll see a link to an article or pick up a copy at a bar, to find lovely stories about individual Oklahomans and things I never knew about my state.  Other times, entire issues seem to be attempts to incite groups to protest. It would be one thing if they offered some balance, but they don't. 

I was discussing this with a friend a few months ago and she used the term The Bi-Polar Times to describe them.  It seems to be right on the money.

Unfortunately if you look at the current issue or their website, it seems they have lost most of their advertisers.  There are only a handful of businesses with ads.  Not nearly enough to keep production going.  You can only spin the barrel so many times before you find the bullet.

I will see TLP when I'm out.  Ever since they stirred the bucket on Tate Brady, I don't pick it up.  Curious how many others were put off by the muck-raking.

Quote from: Conan71 on February 03, 2014, 03:59:57 PM
I will see TLP when I'm out.  Ever since they stirred the bucket on Tate Brady, I don't pick it up.  Curious how many others were put off by the muck-raking.

It's kind of interesting.  I still follow on FB (I follow a lot of entities, but out of sight out of mind) and recently they will have links to stories which I think will be new stories.  Nope.  Usually one or two years old (or more).  I pretty much don't click on any of the links I see on FB from them now.

Quote from: Hoss on February 03, 2014, 04:06:22 PM
It's kind of interesting.  I still follow on FB (I follow a lot of entities, but out of sight out of mind) and recently they will have links to stories which I think will be new stories.  Nope.  Usually one or two years old (or more).  I pretty much don't click on any of the links I see on FB from them now.

TLP pops up often in association with internships and looking for writers. At least twice a semester an email passes through the professors about something they are offering, but I'm never tempted to follow up on it after the Brady ordeal. Just doesn't seem like an organization that I want to be involved with.

Sent from my galaxy, far far away, with tapatalk

Quote from: Conan71 on February 03, 2014, 03:59:57 PM
I will see TLP when I'm out.  Ever since they stirred the bucket on Tate Brady, I don't pick it up.  Curious how many others were put off by the muck-raking.

I thought they were muck-raking from their early issues when they published the story about Grace Church and the "sex scandal" of the early 2000's.

Quote from: rdj on February 04, 2014, 08:01:06 AM
I thought they were muck-raking from their early issues when they published the story about Grace Church and the "sex scandal" of the early 2000's.

They did break this police sex scandal story
http://thislandpress.com/04/27/2012/conduct-unbecoming-part-2
and were promptly sued.
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/TPD-Officer-engaged-in-sexual-activity-while-on/kbv2fwQ130OUaeXecdMNJw.cspx?rss=77

They could just as well re-name the district "Marsha Brady"  :-X

Didn't she become a drug addict?

Quote from: sauerkraut on February 12, 2014, 12:52:28 PM
They could just as well re-name the district "Marsha Brady"  :-X

Whaaat? and create an even bigger controversy.  I can see it now during the dedication ceremony, Jan bum rushes through the crowd doing another of her infamous "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia, it always Marcia" hissy fits and then it'd be on and poppin' from there!

Quote from: AquaMan on February 12, 2014, 01:39:23 PM
Didn't she become a drug addict?

That was Annissa Jones from Family Affair.

Quote from: Rookie Okie on February 12, 2014, 07:09:24 PM
Whaaat? and create an even bigger controversy.  I can see it now during the dedication ceremony, Jan bum rushes through the crowd doing another of her infamous "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia, it always Marcia" hissy fits and then it'd be on and poppin' from there!

For your infomation Jan has since grown up. She's all adult now, no more hissy fitz... Marcia is still darn good looking too. Who can be against Marsha Brady? :)

Quote from: sauerkraut on February 14, 2014, 12:09:45 PM
For your infomation Jan has since grown up. She's all adult now, no more hissy fitz... Marcia is still darn good looking too. Who can be against Marsha Brady? :)

They were fictional characters by the way.  They weren't your friends.

I had such a crush on Jan. And besides. Marsha was so overrated.

Quote from: DolfanBob on February 14, 2014, 01:31:18 PM
I had such a crush on Jan. And besides. Marsha was so overrated.

They should've had Jan go apesmile and kill Oliver with that football that had been out for blood.