Apparently the Tulsa Chamber and the city will not take NO for an answer. You people are just too stupid unenlightened to know what's good for you (and especially what's good for those folks in the power suits who stand to make scads of money!) This is really about jobs, not a corporate slush fund. We all know that AA has the best interests of the people of Tulsa in mind whenever they make decisions that impact so many lives in this community.
From today's World:
Tulsa chamber, city leaders look to try again on airport upgrades
By WAYNE GREENE World Senior Writer
You might call it Vision2.1.
The same people who organized Tulsa County's unsuccessful Vision2 campaign to aid key industrial tenants at the Tulsa airport-industrial complex say they are working on new plans to bring those facilities up to date, and that could include another go at getting voters to approve taxes to pay for the work.
...Tulsa County voters rejected the proposal on a 96,000 to 122,352 vote.
...Preliminary meetings between political and business leaders have been held and talks with American Airlines have started with an eye toward a deal for the most urgent projects sometime in 2013 that will solidify the airline's maintenance presence in Tulsa for the future, Neal said.
...Bartlett said the Vision2 package failed for a number of reasons, including lack of unanimity in support among elected officials, voter misunderstanding of what was being proposed, a necessarily fast calendar for consideration and resentment of American Airlines, which was in bankruptcy and negotiating contract concessions with its workers.
Bartlett said he has regrets about the results of the campaign, but says he isn't sure he'd do it much differently if he had the chance.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20121226_16_A1_Youmig6132 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20121226_16_A1_Youmig6132)
The quack pack is back!
No Surprise for me, and they will likely keep putting this on the ballot until it passes. I don't see any need for it. The one River improvement thing that Tulsa should do is to rebuild the section of the RiverSide jogging trail from around 47th street south to 56th street they still have the old trail there, and the far south section of trail should be re-built. It seems like they did re-surface that Sand Springs Trail it looks pretty good. I'd like to see Tulsa extend the trail south past 101st street too, lets focus on the things that people use and not waste money dreaming up fancy frilly River attractions that no one cares about.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 03, 2013, 10:20:47 AM
I don't see any need for it.
It amazes me that this town can have an airport trust that is on the verge of collapse and nobody says a word about it.
This is most likely a rescue plan in the guise of a capitol improvement plan.
Will Tulsa International Airport be one of the first municipal airports in the country to go under? And what pray tell will become of our ratings?
Vision 2 was rejected, but the problems with the city owned properties at the airport remain. If, for legal or business development reasons, the city is responsible for making repairs to those properties then City and Chamber leaders should be looking for solutions and how to pay for it. Just don't laddle on the extras like "community projects" or industry specific tools for the tenants.
Clown needs to provide support for his accusation that the Airport Trust is on the verge of collapse.
Quote from: DTowner on January 04, 2013, 02:36:50 PM
Clown needs to provide support for his accusation that the Airport Trust is on the verge of collapse.
Ok. Amend that. The Airport....The Tulsa International Airport....The Airport Trust is composed of a few innocent trustees.
Since when did my future lead stories need proof?
Crime many! Since when did you ever believe what I post, DT? You should have me on ignore!
Quote from: Teatownclown on January 04, 2013, 03:33:33 PM
Ok. Amend that. The Airport....The Tulsa International Airport....The Airport Trust is composed of a few innocent trustees.
Since when did my future lead stories need proof?
Crime many! Since when did you ever believe what I post, DT? You should have me on ignore!
I'm just trying to assess risk/necessity before I change all my scheduled flights to NW Arkansas.
Quote from: DTowner on January 04, 2013, 04:13:55 PM
I'm just trying to assess risk/necessity before I change all my scheduled flights to NW Arkansas.
You'll know when they establish an arm with a toll box at the runway entrance.... :D
Quote from: Teatownclown on January 04, 2013, 04:19:41 PM
You'll know when they establish an arm with a toll box at the runway entrance.... :D
Ever heard of landing fees? The big planes pay them. Small planes pay them at some airports. Ramp fees are probably more common for small planes.
Vision 2 is not the answer, but I see Tulsa getting farther behind OKC, our neighbor city 100 miles away is really growing & building. They have a new skyscraper tower called the "Devon Tower" and it's about 200' taller than Tulsa's BOK tower. OKC is making a big network of jogging trails, and updating the city structures. "T" Town needs to get on the ball or we'll be left in the dust.
One of the most important things we can do for Tulsa infrastructure wise is realize that growth models have changed. Sprawl has been going "out of fashion" for quite a while now. Pedestrian friendly urban areas have been picking up steam for several decades now. Both of those trends have picked up steam to the point that the last census data showed that for the first time in 9 decades, walkable areas are now growing faster than suburban type areas. Those trends are going to continue to grow, sprawl becoming less attractive and growing slower with pedestrian/transit friendly areas becoming more attractive and growing faster.
Meanwhile Tulsa as per usual has not taken heed. Meanwhile our mayor seems to want to drag his heels on instituting the new Comprehensive Plan (in which so many people wanted zoning and funding for more pedestrian/transit friendly growth) while he is pushing for the Gilcrease Expressway expansion? Meanwhile we leave in place zoning which makes developing pedestrian/transit friendly areas virtually illegal in over 95% of the city.
Again, walkable areas of the country are growing faster than suburban type areas and will continue to do so. Where does that put Tulsa's future growth?
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 08, 2013, 10:08:13 AM
Vision 2 is not the answer, but I see Tulsa getting farther behind OKC, our neighbor city 100 miles away is really growing & building. They have a new skyscraper tower called the "Devon Tower" and it's about 200' taller than Tulsa's BOK tower. OKC is making a big network of jogging trails, and updating the city structures. "T" Town needs to get on the ball or we'll be left in the dust.
BFD....we do not have a state crapitol nor do we have three interstates bisecting the center of the country. Growing up in Teatown, OKC always had the grander scale but we had the class. That's certainly changed as we have gone all out to be like all the other cities.
I do not think the Devon dick is 200' taller than the BOK Tower. It's 200' higher in terms of sea level.
Define "left in the dust."
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 08, 2013, 10:08:13 AM
Vision 2 is not the answer, but I see Tulsa getting farther behind OKC, our neighbor city 100 miles away is really growing & building. They have a new skyscraper tower called the "Devon Tower" and it's about 200' taller than Tulsa's BOK tower. OKC is making a big network of jogging trails, and updating the city structures. "T" Town needs to get on the ball or we'll be left in the dust.
I'm not familiar with this "Devon Tower" you speak of.
Quote from: Teatownclown on January 08, 2013, 10:35:25 AM
BFD....we do not have a state crapitol nor do we have three interstates bisecting the center of the country. Growing up in Teatown, OKC always had the grander scale but we had the class. That's certainly changed as we have gone all out to be like all the other cities.
I do not think the Devon dick is 200' taller than the BOK Tower. It's 200' higher in terms of sea level.
Define "left in the dust."
Roof height of BOK Tower= 667' Roof height of Devon Tower = 850' So it's about 180' taller.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 08, 2013, 10:08:13 AM
Vision 2 is not the answer, but I see Tulsa getting farther behind OKC, our neighbor city 100 miles away is really growing & building. They have a new skyscraper tower called the "Devon Tower" and it's about 200' taller than Tulsa's BOK tower. OKC is making a big network of jogging trails, and updating the city structures. "T" Town needs to get on the ball or we'll be left in the dust.
Come on, guy...get into reality just once in a while... You obviously aren't getting out of the house to see anything at all. Tulsa downtown, and Pearl and all these cutesie little catch-phrase places are making massive progress at renewing a lot of areas of town that have languished for years. OKC ain't doing what we are doing now - and what we have been doing. They got bricktown. Blah, blah, blah....
And yeah, there are fun/interesting things to do there, but overall, if you had spent as much time as I have there, you would really appreciate what Tulsa offers a lot more. And you would never consider moving there over Tulsa. (Right Conan - since I know you have spent quite a bit of time there...?)
As for trails - they are so far behind that it will take them 20 years to catch up to Tulsa - they really are limited and lack connection to segments. We have a fantastic set of trails...amazing for just about any city. (Dare I say "world class"?) Wish there was even more, and hopefully the progress and process won't stop.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 08, 2013, 01:51:08 PM
Come on, guy...get into reality just once in a while... You obviously aren't getting out of the house to see anything at all. Tulsa downtown, and Pearl and all these cutesie little catch-phrase places are making massive progress at renewing a lot of areas of town that have languished for years. OKC ain't doing what we are doing now - and what we have been doing. They got bricktown. Blah, blah, blah....
And yeah, there are fun/interesting things to do there, but overall, if you had spent as much time as I have there, you would really appreciate what Tulsa offers a lot more. And you would never consider moving there over Tulsa. (Right Conan - since I know you have spent quite a bit of time there...?)
As for trails - they are so far behind that it will take them 20 years to catch up to Tulsa - they really are limited and lack connection to segments. We have a fantastic set of trails...amazing for just about any city. (Dare I say "world class"?) Wish there was even more, and hopefully the progress and process won't stop.
You'd have to live here in order to get out and see other things in Tulsa. I'm still not convinced he lives here. In the two years he's claimed that he has, not one shred of evidence that can't be found on public websites. Not one photo..nothing.
Just sayin'
Quote from: TheArtist on January 08, 2013, 01:32:39 PM
Roof height of BOK Tower= 667' Roof height of Devon Tower = 850' So it's about 180' taller.
BOK Tower/Williams Center floors = 50
Devon Tower floors = 50 (down from an initial 54 then 52)
Quote from: Hoss on January 08, 2013, 02:06:29 PM
You'd have to live here in order to get out and see other things in Tulsa. I'm still not convinced he lives here. In the two years he's claimed that he has, not one shred of evidence that can't be found on public websites. Not one photo..nothing.
Just sayin'
Yeah, but you could have the same issue with me...I never have figured out how to get a picture on here. (Hasn't really been a huge thing yet...).
I had a little time to wander on Friday and went zig-zagging through downtown, then out 6th through Pearl. (Had a friend who lived in house at corner of Zunis, right on that little curve, in previous life who got drunk, went out on the entry roof from second floor and fell asleep. Then rolled off the roof and died from the fall.)
Lots of stuff going on to bring those areas back. Some I like, some not, but it is movement rather than stagnation. Like those mega-apartment looking things being built east of Lewis. What is that all about?
I found Fab-Lab, though and looked through the windows!! Looks like a lot of fun. And 3D printer?? I want to play with that!! I LOVE the Dalek on the front porch!!
And just by pure luck, kept on south and found Starship - wasn't even looking for it, but went inside and looked around. Didn't see my favorite "graphic novel" - Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers...but maybe I didn't look hard enough. That's where I bought all my Mother Earth News magazines through the 70's. Not to mention that little "house" behind the original store on 11th....good party place with good friends.
I definitely got some looks. Am sure most of the customers thought I was a "narc" or something...
Went by a place some friends lived in on south Toledo Place & 36th that has an old oak tree out front with a plaque that "certifies" it as being there before statehood in 1907. Yeah... somebody has been smoking something I would like to share....it was about 12" diameter and about 15 years old in 1965. And me and the friends buried a "time capsule at the base of it. Big now, though.
Lots going on. Good to see the activity.
And as I mentioned, OKC has nothing on T-town.
Quote from: rdj on January 08, 2013, 04:04:04 PM
BOK Tower/Williams Center floors = 50
Devon Tower floors = 50 (down from an initial 54 then 52)
Cityplex 60 floors and shorter than both the above.
Quote from: TheArtist on January 08, 2013, 05:20:18 PM
Cityplex 60 floors and shorter than both the above.
Oh, I know. Floors has nothing to do with height. That was my point.
Quote from: TheArtist on January 08, 2013, 05:20:18 PM
Cityplex 60 floors and shorter than both the above.
That still throws me. Shouldn't it've been 900 feet tall?
Quote from: Townsend on January 09, 2013, 08:59:30 AM
That still throws me. Shouldn't it've been 900 feet tall?
Nothing can be as big as Jesus
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 08, 2013, 01:51:08 PM
Come on, guy...get into reality just once in a while... You obviously aren't getting out of the house to see anything at all. Tulsa downtown, and Pearl and all these cutesie little catch-phrase places are making massive progress at renewing a lot of areas of town that have languished for years. OKC ain't doing what we are doing now - and what we have been doing. They got bricktown. Blah, blah, blah....
And yeah, there are fun/interesting things to do there, but overall, if you had spent as much time as I have there, you would really appreciate what Tulsa offers a lot more. And you would never consider moving there over Tulsa. (Right Conan - since I know you have spent quite a bit of time there...?)
As for trails - they are so far behind that it will take them 20 years to catch up to Tulsa - they really are limited and lack connection to segments. We have a fantastic set of trails...amazing for just about any city. (Dare I say "world class"?) Wish there was even more, and hopefully the progress and process won't stop.
Let's not delude ourselves with Tulsa pride, we've made a lot of progress but OKC still has a big lead on us and the gap is holding steady if not getting bigger. Tulsa should use OKC's progress/activities as motivation and inspiration, but not obsess over every item or try to copy every idea OKC is pursuing. Each city has very different geographical and historical advantages and disadvantages.
While Tulsa's public investments in downtown have really started paying off the last couple of years, we cannot sit back and do nothing as a community and assume everything will be ok (that attitude allowed us to fall so far behind in the first place). The City can really keep the momentum going through key policies and expenditures in targeted areas. That's why Vision 2 was such a bad idea – it ignored the past model of success and was a disconnected grab bag of goodies to hand out.
That said, the airport property issues/improvements cannot be ignored. Those items should not be part of a "vision" vote, but need to be addressed.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 08, 2013, 04:49:34 PM
Lots of stuff going on to bring those areas back. Some I like, some not, but it is movement rather than stagnation. Like those mega-apartment looking things being built east of Lewis. What is that all about?
That is a Kaiser development.
See the Tulsa Now discussion here: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=16207.0 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=16207.0)
Quote from: DTowner on January 09, 2013, 10:23:31 AM
Let's not delude ourselves with Tulsa pride, we've made a lot of progress but OKC still has a big lead on us and the gap is holding steady if not getting bigger. Tulsa should use OKC's progress/activities as motivation and inspiration, but not obsess over every item or try to copy every idea OKC is pursuing. Each city has very different geographical and historical advantages and disadvantages.
While Tulsa's public investments in downtown have really started paying off the last couple of years, we cannot sit back and do nothing as a community and assume everything will be ok (that attitude allowed us to fall so far behind in the first place). The City can really keep the momentum going through key policies and expenditures in targeted areas. That's why Vision 2 was such a bad idea – it ignored the past model of success and was a disconnected grab bag of goodies to hand out.
That said, the airport property issues/improvements cannot be ignored. Those items should not be part of a "vision" vote, but need to be addressed.
I've spent a LOT of time in the last few years in OKC and surrounding areas (south - Moore, Norman, Valley Brook, Midwest City, Dell City..), and I must run in dramatically different circles. I just don't see that OKC has much on Tulsa area at all. Guess it goes to the things I am most interested in....biggest example I can think of is absolutely no interest in pro-basketball.
Oh, except ROADS!! They don't have all the turnpikes we have....!!
Yeah, OKC sucks, blah, blah, blah. This DTnr guy makes a lot of sense to me. When I see tour buses arriving from OKC and the rest of rural Oklahoma to visit our new downtown areas I'll be more persuaded that we have at least parity with the attractions of "the city" which include the seat of government, Murrah and longer history. When we jump ahead and put in rail trolley type systems, then yes, we have arrived.
But if we don't, that's okay. We are moving at our own pace, in our own direction and for different reasons. The real mistake is in believing we're somewhere or someone we aren't.
Lots of OKC people with Beiber fever. They're in town today spending their money!
Quote from: rdj on January 09, 2013, 02:20:24 PM
Lots of OKC people with Beiber fever. They're in town today spending their money!
and is Bieber in the Mayo blunt down?
Quote from: Teatownclown on January 09, 2013, 02:22:03 PM
and is Bieber in the Mayo blunt down?
I would expect so. His entourage has been in town for a few days. They've been spotted shopping and drinking at various places downtown.
Quote from: rdj on January 09, 2013, 02:30:43 PM
I would expect so. His entourage has been in town for a few days. They've been spotted shopping and drinking at various places downtown.
Where there's smoke there's....burning.
Oh my gawd, the children!
Quote from: AquaMan on January 09, 2013, 01:23:45 PM
Yeah, OKC sucks, blah, blah, blah. This DTnr guy makes a lot of sense to me. When I see tour buses arriving from OKC and the rest of rural Oklahoma to visit our new downtown areas I'll be more persuaded that we have at least parity with the attractions of "the city" which include the seat of government, Murrah and longer history. When we jump ahead and put in rail trolley type systems, then yes, we have arrived.
But if we don't, that's okay. We are moving at our own pace, in our own direction and for different reasons. The real mistake is in believing we're somewhere or someone we aren't.
I didn't say they suck. There is some very cool stuff there. Basketball is no biggie to me, but I go to baseball games regularly when I am in town, and have been doing museum circuit - from Norman on north. What I am saying is that they don't an overall "better" lifestyle than Tulsa - and I don't think it is as good. Tulsa just "feels" better.
Mrs. C...?? How you liking Tulsa? How does it "feel" compared to Midwest City/OKC??
I have two friends who have moved here in the last 3 years who are lifelong OKCer's. They were born and raised, educated (OU) in central OK. They now live and work in Tulsa. One has a brother who I work with (in OKC area) and he is trying to get brother to move up here to work/live. It is that much more "comfortable" to him and the other one. Brother is liking it too, when he visits. To the point where he is casually looking for work. They would be good additions to the city.
Bricktown is ok... it's not bad, it's just not any better than what we have. Still a lot of empty buildings there, too, where shops/stores opened, closed, opened, closed, and now are vacant again. We get that, too. It's a cycle.
No restaurant in Bricktown is better than the best we have. (Right Blake?) As for tour buses...well what they have is a better propaganda effort, so maybe we need some help there.
Inevitably these conversations devolve into "OKC sucks, Tulsa is sophisticated" on this end of the turnpike and "OKC rocks", "Tulsa is a whiny brat" from the other end of the pike. Just making note.
I think OKC is designed for suburban commuter lifestyles. The stretch between Norman and Edmond reinforces that. Moore is one big shopping center area surrounded by farm pasture converted to walled off developments. Midwest City, Del City too. Boring, but effective in solving basics (lower real estate costs than the city and nearby franchise shopping). On either end of the stretch lie comfortable, urban, walkable communities. In the middle is OKC with job opportunities, government, entertainment and public facilities. I-35 makes it easy for interaction among the suburbs and the city. You can get anything you want or need on this stretch and live the urban life or suburban life quite easily. When someone says something about OKC they seem to think mostly of the boring, ugly burbs rather than the urban parts.
Tulsa is way different.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 10, 2013, 09:29:41 AM
I didn't say they suck. There is some very cool stuff there. Basketball is no biggie to me, but I go to baseball games regularly when I am in town, and have been doing museum circuit - from Norman on north. What I am saying is that they don't an overall "better" lifestyle than Tulsa - and I don't think it is as good. Tulsa just "feels" better.
Mrs. C...?? How you liking Tulsa? How does it "feel" compared to Midwest City/OKC??
I have two friends who have moved here in the last 3 years who are lifelong OKCer's. They were born and raised, educated (OU) in central OK. They now live and work in Tulsa. One has a brother who I work with (in OKC area) and he is trying to get brother to move up here to work/live. It is that much more "comfortable" to him and the other one. Brother is liking it too, when he visits. To the point where he is casually looking for work. They would be good additions to the city.
Bricktown is ok... it's not bad, it's just not any better than what we have. Still a lot of empty buildings there, too, where shops/stores opened, closed, opened, closed, and now are vacant again. We get that, too. It's a cycle.
No restaurant in Bricktown is better than the best we have. (Right Blake?) As for tour buses...well what they have is a better propaganda effort, so maybe we need some help there.
If you limit the comparison to just Bricktown versus The Brady/Blue Dome, I agree with you that we are doing better than OKC. The problem is that is not a very well known fact even in Tulsa, much less OKC or elsewhere. The perception within the state and even nationally is that OKC is a city on the rise with a lot of vitality and energy – an image that gets reinforced through a youthful Thunder team that continues to exceed expectations. Tulsa isn't on anyone's radar nationally and, to the extent it is thought about, it often isn't thought of particularly well.
However, my point that we are behind OKC goes well beyond Bricktown or even downtown development strictly interpreted. OKC is adding jobs and population at a faster rate than Tulsa. When it comes to attracting new businesses, size matters and we are falling further and further behind OKC in that regard. OKC's leaders are also continuing to push the MAPS program in a way that makes sense. OKC is reaping the benefits of decisions and investments it made 15+ years ago, but it isn't resting on those successes. To some extent, Tulsa is simply behind the curve because we got a later start. My concern, however, as born out by the dreadful V2 proposal, is that Tulsa still lacks leaders that "get it" – leaders that fully understand why we've had the success we've had, how to capitalize on it and how to propel that momentum forward to create a unique and vibrant Tulsa. Our private sector isn't much better. Rather than seeking out ways to grow their business and invest in Tulsa with pride (like Devon and others have in OKC), too many of our business leaders spend their time shopping their companies to out-of-state bidders in order to cash out. Tulsa's unemployment numbers may be ok, but our business and income base is seriously eroded from what it was just 10 years ago with fewer companies headquartered here.
Your friends' experiences upon moving here are encouraging and not surprising, but sadly one that is not occurring enough. As the capitol and intersection of 3 major interstates highways, OKC has some advantages with which Tulsa cannot compete. To a large extent, Tulsa will always play second fiddle to OKC in Oklahoma. Nonetheless, Tulsa has some advantages over OKC that we have failed to appreciate and take advantage of over the past several decades. Perhaps we are reawaking to our potential. I hope so. But for now we would do well to keep a clear headed eye on OKC for ideas and inspiration, as well as proof of what can be accomplished.
Unfortunately, we will always be grouped into the appearance of the new wild west because of politics. The rest the nation perceives us as behind the times. Only progressive leaders can change that. Most decisions on the government level are reactive rather than pro active. OKC has a different set of demographics to borrow from while Tulsa really is better suited towards lower growth and a higher quality of living.
There's always the possibility we get so antiquated that the rest the world sees us as a novelty.
Quote from: TheArtist on January 08, 2013, 01:32:39 PM
Roof height of BOK Tower= 667' Roof height of Devon Tower = 850' So it's about 180' taller.
Yep, that's pretty darn tall. The tallest building in Dallas, Texas is 921' feet tall, I forgot it's name but it's the skyscraper with the green lights around it, so the new OKC tower if it was in Dallas, Texas would be 2nd tallest building in Dallas.. The new OKC tower is now the tallest building in Oklahoma and puts Tulsa's BOK tower in the number 2 spot. That's a big step for OKC.... BTW OKC and Jacksonville, FL are the two largest cities in the USA land/area wise. Jacksonville FL is 874.3 square miles and OKC is 621.2 square miles. Not bad, pretty darn impressive.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 10, 2013, 01:07:19 PM
BTW OKC and Jacksonville, FL are the two largest cities in the USA land/area wise. Jacksonville FL is 874.3 square miles and OKC is 621.2 square miles. Not bad, pretty darn impressive.
So you think that's a good thing? Why?
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 10, 2013, 01:07:19 PM
Yep, that's pretty darn tall. The tallest building in Dallas, Texas is 921' feet tall, I forgot it's name but it's the skyscraper with the green lights around it, so the new OKC tower if it was in Dallas, Texas would be 2nd tallest building in Dallas.. The new OKC tower is now the tallest building in Oklahoma and puts Tulsa's BOK tower in the number 2 spot. That's a big step for OKC.... BTW OKC and Jacksonville, FL are the two largest cities in the USA land/area wise. Jacksonville FL is 874.3 square miles and OKC is 621.2 square miles. Not bad, pretty darn impressive.
wider and longer...good for OKshitty
Quote from: Hoss on January 08, 2013, 02:06:29 PM
You'd have to live here in order to get out and see other things in Tulsa. I'm still not convinced he lives here. In the two years he's claimed that he has, not one shred of evidence that can't be found on public websites. Not one photo..nothing.
Just sayin'
I have nothing to prove, but I did take part in Tulsa's Polar Bear Plunge New Years Day! I don't care if someone believes me or not.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 10, 2013, 01:12:49 PM
I have nothing to prove, but I did take part in Tulsa's Polar Bear Plunge New Years Day! I don't care if someone believes me or not.
OK, who's got a view of the library? Look at the front door.
Now, Sauer, when we've got someone positioned to see the front door of the library, step out and wave.
Quote from: Townsend on January 10, 2013, 01:09:36 PM
So you think that's a good thing? Why?
It makes the record books. Bigger is better. Anyhow that's pretty impressive for a city to be 621 square miles- that's alot of elbow room. Here's some compairsons: Indianapolis is 372 square miles, Tulsa is 186.8 square miles, Cin. Ohio is only 79.6 square miles, Omaha, Nebraska is 118.9 square miles, L.A. is 502 square miles, Columbus, Ohio is 212.6 square miles. In other words OKC more than twice as large as MOST other cities area wise in the USA. :)
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 10, 2013, 01:23:36 PM
It makes the record books. Bigger is better. Anyhow that's pretty impressive for a city to be 621 square miles- that's alot of elbow room. Here's some compairsons: Indianapolis is 372 square miles, Tulsa is 186.8 square miles, Cin. Ohio is only 79.6 square miles, Omaha, Nebraska is 118.9 square miles, L.A. is 502 square miles, Columbus, Ohio is 212.6 square miles. In other words OKC more than twice as large as MOST other cities area wise in the USA. :)
This isn't worth the face-palm pics.
Quote from: Townsend on January 10, 2013, 01:29:14 PM
This isn't worth the face-palm pics.
It might be worth a big thumbs up to OKC our sister city 100 miles away. Anyhow, City rivery always goes on- Dallas and Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth, every city working to out do it's neighbor city.
Quote from: Hoss on January 08, 2013, 02:06:29 PM
You'd have to live here in order to get out and see other things in Tulsa. I'm still not convinced he lives here. In the two years he's claimed that he has, not one shred of evidence that can't be found on public websites. Not one photo..nothing.
Just sayin'
BTW, he's using a Tulsa Public Library computer. Unless he's more talented than I think, he's here. He's just horribly misinformed or a good act.
Quote from: Teatownclown on January 10, 2013, 01:05:19 PM
Unfortunately, we will always be grouped into the appearance of the new wild west because of politics. The rest the nation perceives us as behind the times. Only progressive leaders can change that. Most decisions on the government level are reactive rather than pro active. OKC has a different set of demographics to borrow from while Tulsa really is better suited towards lower growth and a higher quality of living.
There's always the possibility we get so antiquated that the rest the world sees us as a novelty.
From a national perspective on politics, we are lumped in with OKC, so I don't see how that explains much. At heart, politics are not Tulsa's problem - quality of leadership from both sides of the political aisle are not what we need it to be.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 10, 2013, 01:34:41 PM
It might be worth a big thumbs up to OKC our sister city 100 miles away. Anyhow, City rivery always goes on- Dallas and Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth, every city working to out do it's neighbor city.
rivery....clever that term.
There wouldn't be if we learned that there were two sides to economic development. It pays to look good by creating jobs, but I'd take the 1960's size of our town over today. Again, quality over quantity is the future wave.
Quote from: Townsend on January 10, 2013, 01:39:15 PM
BTW, he's using a Tulsa Public Library computer. Unless he's more talented than I think, he's here. He's just horribly misinformed or a good act.
I just want the proof. Some of the things he says makes me wonder if he's locked in a time warp from the early eighties. Most of you here have met me, so you know I live and work here. Those of you I've not met I am pretty sure you live/work/reside here or at least in the vicinity by the things you say about local items.
Some of things he says are N-S-S moments...
Quote from: DTowner on January 10, 2013, 12:32:33 PM
If you limit the comparison to just Bricktown versus The Brady/Blue Dome, I agree with you that we are doing better than OKC. The problem is that is not a very well known fact even in Tulsa, much less OKC or elsewhere. The perception within the state and even nationally is that OKC is a city on the rise with a lot of vitality and energy – an image that gets reinforced through a youthful Thunder team that continues to exceed expectations. Tulsa isn't on anyone's radar nationally and, to the extent it is thought about, it often isn't thought of particularly well.
However, my point that we are behind OKC goes well beyond Bricktown or even downtown development strictly interpreted. OKC is adding jobs and population at a faster rate than Tulsa. When it comes to attracting new businesses, size matters and we are falling further and further behind OKC in that regard. OKC's leaders are also continuing to push the MAPS program in a way that makes sense. OKC is reaping the benefits of decisions and investments it made 15+ years ago, but it isn't resting on those successes. To some extent, Tulsa is simply behind the curve because we got a later start. My concern, however, as born out by the dreadful V2 proposal, is that Tulsa still lacks leaders that "get it" – leaders that fully understand why we've had the success we've had, how to capitalize on it and how to propel that momentum forward to create a unique and vibrant Tulsa. Our private sector isn't much better. Rather than seeking out ways to grow their business and invest in Tulsa with pride (like Devon and others have in OKC), too many of our business leaders spend their time shopping their companies to out-of-state bidders in order to cash out. Tulsa's unemployment numbers may be ok, but our business and income base is seriously eroded from what it was just 10 years ago with fewer companies headquartered here.
Your friends' experiences upon moving here are encouraging and not surprising, but sadly one that is not occurring enough. As the capitol and intersection of 3 major interstates highways, OKC has some advantages with which Tulsa cannot compete. To a large extent, Tulsa will always play second fiddle to OKC in Oklahoma. Nonetheless, Tulsa has some advantages over OKC that we have failed to appreciate and take advantage of over the past several decades. Perhaps we are reawaking to our potential. I hope so. But for now we would do well to keep a clear headed eye on OKC for ideas and inspiration, as well as proof of what can be accomplished.
I would love to see someone put in a Top That along that I-35 strip at Moore. I'm there enough that I could almost make them succeed by myself....
As for jobs - my direct experience is engineering/technology related and there is a lot of military stuff there (Tinker). Devon and Chesapeake have been poaching a couple of companies I know of. Climatemaster and their related ones are slowly adding some people and Johnson Controls had a sign hanging on their fence for several months saying "Now Hiring". The people I have direct contact with are having a tougher time of it...several in addition to the previous mentioned are looking but really don't want to leave the area (family, etc). Even they comment that they could have been in several positions if willing to relocate - either to Tulsa, Stillwater. Technology is on a mild down slope in middle Oklahoma.
But as you mentioned, Tulsa has seen a bunch of people 'cashing out', too, so that slope may start here soon, too.
Can we "claim" Pryor as part of our sphere?? The industrial park seems to always have things happening...
i would take that second fiddle thing one step further and say we got the deck stacked against us by central Oklahoma. Panhandle, west and southwest seem to identify more with OKC area - the local stations do their weather....just a small point that I think means something to people...brings them into the fold, so to speak. OKC has this megalomaniacal thing going that lets them expand the city limits out to Tulsa's outskirts, so they seem to feel that the city extends to the Texas/Kansas border. (Small exaggeration) Yep, they have institutionalized advantages that we have to overcome. Kind of surprises me sometimes at how well we have done in spite of those efforts to hold us back....it IS a conscious effort.
OKC has some advantages over Tulsa in that the main interstate highways of Oklahoma City are free interstates- I-35 & I-40, Tulsa's neighboring interstates are all toll roads. Another plus OKC has over Tulsa is that OKC is just 200 miles from the D/FW MetroPlex a straight drive down the toll free I-35 takes you into Texas and that makes it handy for business and companies who do business in Dallas and North Texas. Tulsa can't do nothing about that, but Tulsa can work to make the city more attractive of a place to do business than in OKC.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 11, 2013, 02:20:17 PM
OKC has some advantages over Tulsa in that the main interstate highways of Oklahoma City are free interstates- I-35 & I-40, Tulsa's neighboring interstates are all toll roads. Another plus OKC has over Tulsa is that OKC is just 200 miles from the D/FW MetroPlex a straight drive down the toll free I-35 takes you into Texas and that makes it handy for business and companies who do business in Dallas and North Texas. Tulsa can't do nothing about that, but Tulsa can work to make the city more attractive of a place to do business than in OKC.
I don't think we can do anything to improve Tulsa as long as we have a mayor who lacks any ability to lead.
Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 02:25:33 PM
I don't think we can do anything to improve Tulsa as long as we have a mayor who lacks any ability to lead.
Yep, Tulsa's mayor is no good I don't like him, but Tulsa still has to be progressive and keep taxes low and attract companies to the city. I think one big help would be if the state would make I-44 a free interstate from Joplin, Mo to OKC. That would be a step in the right direction. If the state Turnpike people can survive by just getting rid of the tolls on that one turnpike I think it would do alot postive for commerce.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 12, 2013, 10:27:57 AM
Yep, Tulsa's mayor is no good I don't like him, but Tulsa still has to be progressive and keep taxes low and atract companies to the city. I think one big help would be if the state would make I-44 a free interstate from Joplin, Mo to OKC. That would be a step in the right direction. If the state Turnpike people can survive by just getting rid of the tolls on that one turnpike I think it would do alot postive for commerce.
See my previous statement about taking revenue away from one source. Has to be made up somewhere. Else watch I-44 already crappy pavement turn to worse.
Why would the state end a turnpike whose revenues pay for its operation and maintenance? Surely you understand that without that revenue, your taxes would have to fill in the slack. The toll fees are mostly taxation that come from outside the state and have shown no negative effect on commerce between Joplin and OKC.
I can see how putting a moratorium on new toll ways might be defensible but not hacking away at existing sources without replacing that revenue.
Truly sad that they tried to tie river improvements to that last Vision 2. It seems the rest of the state has no interest in seeing us prosper. Curious too.
Quote from: Hoss on January 12, 2013, 10:53:53 AM
See my previous statement about taking revenue away from one source. Has to be made up somewhere. Else watch I-44 already crappy pavement turn to worse.
It's only one major toll interstate that I think should become a free road- not all the toll roads. OKC's two major interstate highways are free roads (I-35 & I-40) The growth in the economy and commerce will spur more income into the state to fund road repair, or heck raise gas taxes 1 cent... toll roads and higher fees/taxes do not help economic growth. Don't forget the biggest cost of any toll road is funding the labor- toll road workers, retirement packages, wages and the like. Those expenses will be gone if I-44 can become a free road. In the D/FW MetroPlex I-30 the interstate that links Fort Worth to Dallas was once a toll road and in 1978 it was all paid off and it became a free road, In Oklahoma when a toll road gets paid off it still does not become a free road they find other reasons to keep the toll roads. Truckers pay a ton of money in tolls and that cost gets passed along in the shipping costs that we all end up paying in the end.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 13, 2013, 02:00:03 PM
Truckers pay a ton of money in tolls and that cost gets passed along in the shipping costs that we all end up paying in the end.
And you can pretty much bet that the toll roads are cheaper overall than alternate routes or the truckers will take those alternate routes.
Quote from: sauerkraut on January 13, 2013, 02:00:03 PM
Truckers pay a ton of money in tolls and that cost gets passed along in the shipping costs that we all end up paying in the end.
Those tolls repair and maintain the roads the trucker's heavy loads damage. If they didn't pay those tolls the state would still exact a fee from them at weigh stations (which would require employees, billing systems etc.) or we/you as taxpayers would still pay in the end. I-35 is an interstate that has lots of access. The Turnpikes are limited access and generally easier and faster to drive so the average driver also benefits.
No one gets a free ride Sauer.
Then there is the issue of $1.3 billion in bonded indebtedness that would have to be paid off to make the roads "free". They keep the debt level pretty constant so they can continue to justify their existence. It is standard procedure for any "living" entity...and a bureaucracy is definitely that. Survive and grow. So, we will never see that debt gone, nor the roads made free.
Unless there is a grass roots effort to get the state constitution changed...something along that line happened many years ago, and the people who thought it was soooooo good to let "other people" pay for our roads for us won the day. Idiots.