City of Wichita officials are working to repair a leaking valve at an intermediate pump station at the city's main wastewater treatment plant, the apparent cause of elevated bacteria levels in the Arkansas River.
Those levels, the Kansas Department of Health and Environment said in a Sunday news release, were the cause of a public health advisory issued Friday for the river.
KDHE spokeswoman Miranda Steele said that residents should have no contact with the river from the Lincoln Street Bridge in central Wichita to the Oklahoma state line.
Steele said pets and livestock should be kept away from the river as well. A fish kill in areas with "black, odiferous water" has been reported along the river between south Wichita and Derby.
State and local officials will work through the holiday weekend to assess the situation, the state spokeswoman said. The affected portion of the river is south and downstream of Wichita River Festival activities, which kick off on Friday.
Steele said the full impact of the untreated wastewater isn't known, but the health advisory will remain in effect.
Just a bunch of alarmist sensationalism...it will be fine by the time it gets to Keystone lake. If we can only keep the EPA out of it, everything will be fine....*
*Not my real thoughts on the matter.
Did anyone manage to catch Tulsa's Police Department in the Wichita area recently? I bet they are responsible...
They probably all took a huge dump in the ditch that runs down the middle of I-135...
Quote from: guido911 on May 28, 2012, 12:33:01 AM
Did anyone manage to catch Tulsa's Police Department in the Wichita area recently? I bet they are responsible...
Heh...Top-shelf....!!!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 27, 2012, 11:49:52 PM
Just a bunch of alarmist sensationalism...it will be fine by the time it gets to Keystone lake. If we can only keep the EPA out of it, everything will be fine....*
As they say in Kansas, "Keep Kansas clean, send your waste to Oklahoma".
;D
What else is new? Wichita has been sending their s---t down for us to help them smell up for over a century. Since the increasing urban and the reducing rural areas along with the increasing admitting of immigrants the cities cannot keep up with the need to sanitize the human waste. With the increasing urban population this has the "bigger the better" cliché in question. Best thing to do is help Wichita smell it up.
Our environment is decaying....the heat compounds it all. Tulsa is a city gone foul....
When will the truth be told?
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 28, 2012, 03:32:58 PM
Our environment is decaying....the heat compounds it all. Tulsa is a city gone foul....
When will the truth be told?
When people like you tell us. Do you know something you're holding back?
Yes. Everyone here will be happy to hear that TTC will be moving to a safer environment someday in the next 10 years.
I wonder what the lung cancer rate is here in TeaTown of those who never smoked.
Don't worry about the Arkansas River....start worrying about the air you breathe.
We will know more someday when Jim Inhofe is gone.....
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 28, 2012, 03:32:58 PM
When will the truth be told?
Okay. You are a wretched, pathetic, POS dooshbag of a human being. Happy now?
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 28, 2012, 03:57:49 PM
Yes. Everyone here will be happy to hear that TTC will be moving to a safer environment someday in the next 10 years.
I wonder what the lung cancer rate is here in TeaTown of those who never smoked.
Don't worry about the Arkansas River....start worrying about the air you breathe.
We will know more someday when Jim Inhofe is gone.....
I presume the lung cancer rate would be higher directly north and south of the refineries where the prevailing seasonal winds blow. The question is whether anyone is doing any statistical research to prove that.
edit: the corollary question would be, "does it matter?" It would be nice for the surrounding homeowners to be able to make an informed decision as to whether they should move or not.
The portion of the Arkansas River running through Tulsa is the cleanest it has been in my lifetime. Ozone levels in Tulsa County have improved 8 of the last ten years. Tulsa's drinking water is among the purest in America. more than 25,000 trees have been planted in Tulsa in the last four years. Tulsa is about to launch the most comprehensive recycling program for the region.
Don't listen to Chicken Little. The sky isn't falling.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 28, 2012, 04:53:00 PM
Don't listen to Chicken Little. The sky isn't falling.
Chicken Little is back?
I'm not worried about the river so much or the ozone in the air. I work near the refinery and people seem to forget that it is a 24/7 operation. The wind blows routinely from the south all summer and from the north all winter through that corridor. The smells are strong and lasting. Add in the galvanizing, the flourine operation and the cement plants and you have some constantly fouled air. Its only occassionally that it blows to the east side of the river. I just wonder if there are any studies showing the effects of those operations on the nearby residents.
Calm me down Mike, I would love some reassurance.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 28, 2012, 04:53:00 PM
The portion of the Arkansas River running through Tulsa is the cleanest it has been in my lifetime. Ozone levels in Tulsa County have improved 8 of the last ten years. Tulsa's drinking water is among the purest in America. more than 25,000 trees have been planted in Tulsa in the last four years. Tulsa is about to launch the most comprehensive recycling program for the region.
Don't listen to Chicken Little. The sky isn't falling.
The river being the cleanest in your lifetime don't mean Jack....the rivers in Pittsburgh used to burn but I still wouldn't get in them....nor Grand Lake which has gotten much worse. Ozone standards have been eased the past 8 years so explain that and how the measurements help us get by on attainment. I drink bottled.... fluoride is a death wish. I live in the forest. Can't argue with the recycling program which I gave you credit but unfortunately your arrogance let it blow right through you.
And we're not talking sky falling...we be talkin' quality of life, Mista America.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 28, 2012, 07:34:01 PM
The river being the cleanest in your lifetime don't mean Jack....the rivers in Pittsburgh used to burn but I still wouldn't get in them....nor Grand Lake which has gotten much worse. Ozone standards have been eased the past 8 years so explain that and how the measurements help us get by on attainment. I drink bottled.... fluoride is a death wish. I live in the forest. Can't argue with the recycling program which I gave you credit but unfortunately your arrogance let it blow right through you.
And we're not talking sky falling...we be talkin' quality of life, Mista America.
Let's be clear - it was the Cuyahoga River near Cleveland Ohio that caught fire, not any of the rivers near Pittsburgh. When I was a kid those rivers were heavily polluted. In fact, Brush Creek near my home was so bad nothing lived in it, not even carp. There were three big problems: untreated sewage from residences, industrial pollution, and acid mine drainage. The commonwealth addressed all three issues in the late 60s and early 70s. You can catch bass at the Point in Pittsburgh these days, and you can eat them too. Streams that were once dead now hold thriving trout fisheries, and there's a trout stream in every county.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 28, 2012, 07:34:01 PM
Ozone standards have been eased the past 8 years so explain that and how the measurements help us get by on attainment.
You got the numbers handy? I thought the standards were just maintained rather than making them tighter.
Quote from: Ed W on May 28, 2012, 07:58:23 PM
Let's be clear - it was the Cuyahoga River near Cleveland Ohio that caught fire, not any of the rivers near Pittsburgh. When I was a kid those rivers were heavily polluted. In fact, Brush Creek near my home was so bad nothing lived in it, not even carp. There were three big problems: untreated sewage from residences, industrial pollution, and acid mine drainage. The commonwealth addressed all three issues in the late 60s and early 70s. You can catch bass at the Point in Pittsburgh these days, and you can eat them too. Streams that were once dead now hold thriving trout fisheries, and there's a trout stream in every county.
Downtown Pittsburgh is a lot cleaner too. I visited my cousin at Pitt in 72. Some of the buildings were still in the process of being cleaned up. It was amazing how much crud was being removed. Pittsburgh is a lot cleaner now but of course the steel mills are all in China.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 28, 2012, 03:57:49 PM
Yes. Everyone here will be happy to hear that TTC will be moving to a safer environment someday in the next 10 years.
I'm sure that you would find plenty of willing helpers here to help you pack, just to get you out of town sooner. Heck, I'm sure you would even find someone to drive you to the city limits, or even the state line.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 28, 2012, 07:34:01 PM
I drink bottled.... fluoride is a death wish.
Try reading the studies, not the half-a$$ed attempt at pretending to research, putting in your own information and sticking it on a website. The ill-effects associated with fluoride (consuming large amounts of it) is more that it causes a lowering of IQ. But then, I suppose in your case you don't really have enough of that to spare it it might be a death sentence for you.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 28, 2012, 08:25:59 PM
You got the numbers handy? I thought the standards were just maintained rather than making them tighter.
I do.
http://www.ozonealert.com/tulsaAreaOzoneTrend.htm
Someone post the graph for me.
And there is this on the river...
Arkansas River water quality improved, won't impede development
Tulsa World By JANET PEARSON Associate Editor
Published: 8/14/2011
It's as predictable as the summer heat. Whenever there's any news about Arkansas River development, the chorus of critics rises again. It's too polluted, the naysayers say. Nobody will be able to stand the odors from the refineries and sewage treatment plant, they insist. It's a braided prairie river and should be left that way, says another faction. But the truth is that someone thought of all those things long ago, and someone's been working on them ever since.
The latest news was the announcement about three proposals for developing some city-owned sites on the west bank that probably will be rejected because they weren't what city leaders, and probably most Tulsans, had in mind. Another recent announcement detailed the River Parks Authority's plans for modifying and repairing Zink Dam, a project that will make the lake deeper as well as safer and more suitable for recreational activities.
Right on cue, these stories elicited the predictable chants that the river is so yucky nobody would want to sit anywhere near it, much less stick a toe in it. Thanks to the intensive regulation of discharges from industries and municipalities into waterways, the Arkansas River is a lot cleaner these days than many people would believe. In fact, this past summer, it was cleaner than parts of some lakes. Remember the blue-green algae outbreaks?
Local officials had hoped there would be significant federal funding to advance Arkansas River development, but now it appears there will be little, if any, in the foreseeable future. That has local leaders scrambling for other funding sources for such elements as additional low-water dams, deemed by most development supporters to be necessary to make the river attractive for development.
For now, the aim is to ensure there is plenty of water in Zink Lake, an achievable improvement that will help maintain interest in developing the river.
Local officials had hoped there would be significant federal funding to advance Arkansas River development, but now it appears there will be little, if any, in the foreseeable future. That has local leaders scrambling for other funding sources for such elements as additional low-water dams, deemed by most development supporters to be necessary to make the river attractive for development.
For now, the aim is to ensure there is plenty of water in Zink Lake, an achievable improvement that will help maintain interest in developing the river.
Gaylon Pinc, environmental program manager for Program Management Group, the consultants guiding river development planning, said the loss of federal funds means some development plans likely will be delayed, but Zink Dam improvements "will ensure there's water in the river, and that's what most people want to see," he said.
But not everyone. "There is a very vocal group that loves the sandy, prairie river, which is its natural condition."
Or rather, was its natural condition.
"Since Keystone (Dam) was built, it has degraded to the point we really don't have that any more," Pinc added.
The regular releases from the dam for power generation and flood control have caused continual habitat and ecosystem changes over the decades, to the point that the Arkansas is no longer the meandering prairie river it once was. And it never will be again. "When hydropower generation starts again, you'll see those sands start washing down again," Pinc said.
What's been lost in the debate over low-water dams is their ability to help address that ecosystem damage. The northernmost dam at Sand Springs, as envisioned in the master plan, would create an impoundment that would "capture and release water to help stabilize flows all the way down the river system," explained Pinc. With an upstream dam helping to stabilize flows, there could be "significant habitat improvements" in addition to the benefit of smoothing out the flows.
So, just how safe is the water?
There's long been a belief that the Arkansas River is hopelessly polluted. There was a time when it was in bad shape, but that was a long time ago.
Now, thanks to many new regulations over the years, the river is deemed safe enough by the Oklahoma Water Resources Board for "secondary body contact." That includes such activities as boating, rafting and kayaking - water sports where there's little likelihood of ingesting much water.
The state's popular lakes, such as Keystone and Grand, are classified as safe for "primary body contact," which includes swimming.
But the differing classifications don't necessarily mean one body of water is a whole lot cleaner than the other. As Pinc pointed out, the Arkansas River is fed by Keystone Lake, so obviously the water quality in the two is similar.
"Those doom-and-gloom folk who think the river is still heavily polluted need to compare the water quality reports against other surface waters. The river has improved significantly," said Pinc. "That's not to say it's pure and problem-free. But look at other surface waters. All surface waters have issues."
As to the belief there's sewage flowing into the river - another misconception that just won't die: There is only one wastewater treatment facility above Zink Lake in Sand Springs. "And it is required to disinfect its (discharged) wastewater to the primary body contact standard." In other words, the discharged water is cleaner than the water already in the river. The same is true of the Tulsa wastewater plant near Interstate 44, where improvements also have been made to the plant's odor-control system.
"They have to meet the same standards as other plants and they meet them. Otherwise they get in trouble and get fined and have to spend lots of money on upgrades," said Pinc.
It's true storm drains at times wash animal waste, fertilizers and other naturally occurring pollutants such as decaying vegetation into the river. It's a fact of life in a big city. There also are dangers from decades-old debris such as chunks of concrete in the riverbed. For these reasons it's unlikely the Arkansas ever will be developed for swimming purposes.
"But kayakers and rowing clubs have been using the river for years, and water quality hasn't been an issue," said Pinc. "Their concern is about water depth."
The refineries are another bugaboo with the anti-development crowd, who apparently aren't aware or don't believe there have been significant, ongoing environmental improvements to both plant emissions and industrial wastewater treatment for years now, because of the enactment of more stringent federal standards.
As Pinc noted: "Refinery operations are heavily regulated. Industries and municipal discharges are so heavily regulated it does not pay to violate the standards because the fines are really stiff ...They have to test frequently and submit data to federal and state regulators who have a keen eye on those who don't meet their permit requirements."
Pinc said more environmental studies are under way on the river and more will be conducted in the future. But he added he believes it's "highly unlikely there's a significant problem" with the water, because if there were, we'd know it by now.
The continuing interest in the river no doubt ensures the river's future is safe and even improving. "We turned our backs on the river in the '50s and '60s and '70s ," said Pinc. "We didn't have respect for it. But now we see an opportunity to undertake significant improvements to an area that is well-loved."
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=211&articleid=20110814_211_G1_CUTLIN797618
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 28, 2012, 09:02:06 PM
I do.
http://www.ozonealert.com/tulsaAreaOzoneTrend.htm
Someone post the graph for me.
We may have exceeded the standard in 2011 but it doesn't look like the standard was relaxed.
Everything is on hold. It takes a year and a half to be designated anyway and the standard got all political this election year. We have a good summer and we get to use better numbers in our three year average.
But we shouldn't only care about air quality because of some regulatory number made up in Washington D.C. We should care because we, and our parents, and our kids breath OUR air. One out of five people have some breathing problem and high ozone days really affect their quality of life.
Back to the river.
I went sailing on the Charles River by Boston in the early 80s with my cousin. She said to try really hard to not fall in the water as I would get a mandatory trip to the hospital if I did. Is the Arkansas anywhere near that bad?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 28, 2012, 09:12:42 PM
But we shouldn't only care about air quality because of some regulatory number made up in Washington D.C. We should care because we, and our parents, and our kids breath OUR air. One out of five people have some breathing problem and high ozone days really affect their quality of life.
How clean we want our air is a matter of time, money and how much pollution we can send to China. What I was addressing is whether or not the standards had actually been relaxed to earlier standards or just not tightened as scheduled.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 28, 2012, 09:02:06 PM
I do.
http://www.ozonealert.com/tulsaAreaOzoneTrend.htm
Someone post the graph for me.
(http://www.ozonealert.com/images/2012%20ozone%20trend_med.jpg)
Everything the state knows about Oklahoma water and how it is monitored can be found in this handy 84 page document.
http://www.deq.state.ok.us/wqdnew/305b_303d/2010/2010%20Oklahoma%20Integrated%20Report.pdf
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 28, 2012, 09:25:40 PM
Everything the state knows about Oklahoma water and how it is monitored can be found in this handy 84 page document.
http://www.deq.state.ok.us/wqdnew/305b_303d/2010/2010%20Oklahoma%20Integrated%20Report.pdf
Handy and 84 page are not terms I would normally associate with each other.
:D
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 28, 2012, 09:12:42 PM
Everything is on hold. It takes a year and a half to be designated anyway and the standard got all political this election year. We have a good summer and we get to use better numbers in our three year average.
But we shouldn't only care about air quality because of some regulatory number made up in Washington D.C. We should care because we, and our parents, and our kids breath OUR air. One out of five people have some breathing problem and high ozone days really affect their quality of life.
We need to start cutting down Oak Trees:
Trees May Contribute To Ozone Problem
by Kate Melville
Trees may not actually commit suicide, but certain species do produce pollutants that hamper their own growth while contributing to global climate changes and causing harm to other life forms, contend two Texas A&M University researchers. Renyi Zhang, an atmospheric chemist, is studying one such substance, isoprene, given off by oak trees and leading to increased ozone in our atmosphere. Working under a $300,000 grant from the National Science Foundation, Zhang and chemistry professor Simon North have taken on the challenge of unraveling the more than 1,000 reactions that transform organically released isoprene into toxic atmospheric pollutants.
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20020526235808data_trunc_sys.shtml
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 28, 2012, 09:15:05 PM
Back to the river.
I went sailing on the Charles River by Boston in the early 80s with my cousin. She said to try really hard to not fall in the water as I would get a mandatory trip to the hospital if I did. Is the Arkansas anywhere near that bad?
No where near that bad. Even when the KRMG raft race was going on (with the flushing they gave it before each race) very few people actually got sick from exposure - and there were always a lot of people who did the whole body immersion thing in the river. For the last 10 years or so, I have been very pleasantly surprised to hear that the water quality is better, and visually to see a less "ugly" water surface. (Big chunks of foam, sheen on the water, and the "look" of grunge in the water - NOT to be confused with the plain old brown color from muddy river water.
It appears that Sand Springs has done a very good job of upgrading their sewer system - a work in progress. Over years, big rains have always overwhelmed the system, releasing untreated sewage into the Arkansas. (Angus Acres looks to be the remaining point of work that is being talked about.) Big improvements!
As for Tulsa's contribution to the river - long ago, there were many houses that plumbed their sanitary drains into the storm drain system. Much of the outflow occurred at 11th, 21st, and 31st. I know at one time (couple decades ago) there was quite a bit of effort put into finding these entry points in the system, and many of those connections were found and changed. I would not be surprised if there were still a number in place, but since this is one of those things that will eventually self-correct (when drains at a house fail and must be replaced), it probably is not worth much effort now.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 28, 2012, 09:25:40 PM
Everything the state knows about Oklahoma water and how it is monitored can be found in this handy 84 page document.
http://www.deq.state.ok.us/wqdnew/305b_303d/2010/2010%20Oklahoma%20Integrated%20Report.pdf
Nice! I'm gonna save that to read for a cold, snowy night when the wind is howling and the fireplace is crackling and can snuggle up in a comfortable chair and read myself to sleep.
The Arkansas River has been the central sewer for the United States for hundreds of years. The civil war battle (the only battles fought in the territory) of the Round Mountain was fought on the south side of the river west of the dam.
It is the sewer dumping grounds for several small cities and the overflow basin of many of the large ones including Tulsa. Not many years ago the health department advised people not to eat the fish taken from the river. I would think that the water quality was considered in the elimination of the raft races as in our screwed up justice system there could be many grounds for law suits. The storm water systems dump many gallons of contaminated water in the river.
We are misled by these experts sitting at a desk on water quality. From experience with the old air-conditioning water tower that were more efficient and made air-condition cheaper were abandon because the city waters was contaminated with minerals that solidified when heated causing the deposit to close of the pipes capacity where acid had to be in constant use in dissolving it. The hell of it was the acid ate up the pipes too.
Possibility one of the wizards can tell me why a doctor would say "mix that with water but not tap water"? Have we noticed that bottled drinking water is touted again in the retail market. Why?
Quote from: shadows on May 30, 2012, 05:19:44 PM
The Arkansas River has been the central sewer for the United States for hundreds of years. The civil war battle (the only battles fought in the territory) of the Round Mountain was fought on the south side of the river west of the dam.
It is the sewer dumping grounds for several small cities and the overflow basin of many of the large ones including Tulsa. Not many years ago the health department advised people not to eat the fish taken from the river. I would think that the water quality was considered in the elimination of the raft races as in our screwed up justice system there could be many grounds for law suits. The storm water systems dump many gallons of contaminated water in the river.
We are misled by these experts sitting at a desk on water quality. From experience with the old air-conditioning water tower that were more efficient and made air-condition cheaper were abandon because the city waters was contaminated with minerals that solidified when heated causing the deposit to close of the pipes capacity where acid had to be in constant use in dissolving it. The hell of it was the acid ate up the pipes too.
Possibility one of the wizards can tell me why a doctor would say "mix that with water but not tap water"? Have we noticed that bottled drinking water is touted again in the retail market. Why?
Congratulations! You have managed to include untruths (I don't think you're lying, just misinformed or plain ignorant of the truth) in every single sentence of your post! Quite a feat and you did it in a language we all understand.
You've forgotten the battle at Chusto Talasah (known as Bird Creek today by historians).
The second paragraph is just trash. Stuff you hear but can never track down as true because...its not. I know for a fact that the demise of the Raft Race had little to do with water quality but a lot to do with potential lawsuits from alcohol abuse and lack of organized rescue operations. Insurance companies frown on that.
The third paragraph is humorous. Minerals are naturally occurring in water whether from wells or runoff into lakes. Water in Norman was so hard with calcium that it was hard to rinse off. Our water comes from a water shed far away from the Arkansas. Its possible that when you were working on those "efficient" water tower cooling systems that the water was pumped from the Arkansas but that would have been pre-1925 and likely salt was the contaminant.
The last paragraph is silly. Doctors don't know the quality of the piping into your home, its age, the time the water has sat in the pipes and the nature of the minerals it holds. Neither will they vouch for the bottled varieties which usually come from city systems anyway. The "retail market" must love that these ideas persist. Are you on retainer for them?
Quote from: AquaMan on May 30, 2012, 05:39:06 PM
The second paragraph is just trash. Stuff you hear but can never track down as true because...its not. I know for a fact that the demise of the Raft Race had little to do with water quality but a lot to do with potential lawsuits from alcohol abuse and lack of organized rescue operations. Insurance companies frown on that.
The third paragraph is humorous. Minerals are naturally occurring in water whether from wells or runoff into lakes. Water in Norman was so hard with calcium that it was hard to rinse off. Our water comes from a water shed far away from the Arkansas. Its possible that when you were working on those "efficient" water tower cooling systems that the water was pumped from the Arkansas but that would have been pre-1925 and likely salt was the contaminant.
The last paragraph is silly. Doctors don't know the quality of the piping into your home, its age, the time the water has sat in the pipes and the nature of the minerals it holds. Neither will they vouch for the bottled varieties which usually come from city systems anyway. The "retail market" must love that these ideas persist. Are you on retainer for them?
Norman pumps it out of the ground. Not sure what other minerals are in it, but it tastes ok straight from the tap. Better than bottled water. Moore and OKC have good water, too. In fact, it is getting difficult to find bad tasting water in this state. Couple of the towns out in the panhandle used to be kind of funky, but that was a long time ago - not sure about now.
Water pipes in the house used to be galvanized steel. Not bad, but guaranteed to corrode, no matter what kind of city water was pumped through them. Distilled might make them last longer, but that is pretty expensive. Copper and plastic used now won't corrode much. But then ya got leaching from the PVC. Not sure I like that, but it ain't gonna change.
Bottled water is a sucker bet, unless the town just has horrible water (like if it burns from methane?). Beyond that, Tulsa and all the surrounding areas have excellent water and it is stupid to use anything else - even in an athletic venue, bring a bottle full of tap water. Good stuff! But hey, that's what marketing is all about - selling useless, wasteful stuff to people who don't know any better.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2012, 06:29:36 PM
But hey, that's what marketing is all about - selling useless, wasteful stuff to people who don't know any better.
This is the country that bought Pet Rocks. Bottled water is a gimme for marketeers.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 30, 2012, 05:39:06 PM
Congratulations! You have managed to include untruths (I don't think you're lying, just misinformed or plain ignorant of the truth) in every single sentence of your post! Quite a feat and you did it in a language we all understand.
You've forgotten the battle at Chusto Talasah (known as Bird Creek today by historians).
The second paragraph is just trash. Stuff you hear but can never track down as true because...its not. I know for a fact that the demise of the Raft Race had little to do with water quality but a lot to do with potential lawsuits from alcohol abuse and lack of organized rescue operations. Insurance companies frown on that.
The third paragraph is humorous. Minerals are naturally occurring in water whether from wells or runoff into lakes. Water in Norman was so hard with calcium that it was hard to rinse off. Our water comes from a water shed far away from the Arkansas. Its possible that when you were working on those "efficient" water tower cooling systems that the water was pumped from the Arkansas but that would have been pre-1925 and likely salt was the contaminant.
The last paragraph is silly. Doctors don't know the quality of the piping into your home, its age, the time the water has sat in the pipes and the nature of the minerals it holds. Neither will they vouch for the bottled varieties which usually come from city systems anyway. The "retail market" must love that these ideas persist. Are you on retainer for them?
The evaporative cooling towers he speaks of are still very much in use, the deposits are calcium and magnesium scale, naturally-occuring minerals which will fall out of solution when they are subjected to heat and a higher pH. I made a very good living keeping those deposits from sticking on all sorts of heat exchangers.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 30, 2012, 06:47:17 PM
I made a very good living keeping those deposits from sticking on all sorts of heat exchangers.
Big scrub brush with a really long handle?
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 30, 2012, 06:52:03 PM
Big scrub brush with a really long handle?
Only when the chemical program went to smile. ;)
Quote from: Conan71 on May 30, 2012, 07:13:27 PM
Only when the chemical program went to smile. ;)
Better make it a wire brush made out of a sandblaster!
I guess I am a newcomer in all this as much of my time was spent as a fixit man. Now the Japs have converted everything where we don’t make any thing and what they make for us cannot be fixed.
Remember the days when all drainage pipes had to be of lead until some one printed a white page on the lead poison. We are facing a problem as plastics in the aging process may give off a new line of poison. Copper has a tendency to turn green with corrosion as it ages
My history books on the civil war define the Battle of Round Mountain as the only battle in what is now Oklahoma.
The raft race I am sure required a pile of insurance and as more facts about our environment, as well a law suits that are being filed, would lead to the possibility that the increasing insurance as well as the long term effects caused by the contamination of the water would make the decision.
During the transition of swamp coolers to chilled air I installed the first experiment unit John Zink made in the house where a fellow named Woodhead was sent here from Cal to operate Douglas. The water tower was installed in the basement and I gave up trying to keep the coolant flowing by the constant use of acid.
One of the pop bottling companies had a 2 inch water line running full blast rewashing the bottles before entering the soaker. I designed and installed a reclaiming system to where it captured the water and reused it to wash the cig buts out of the bottles. Received a call 48 hours later and was told the pump had quit. On examination I found that the 2 inch water line was closed off with solid scale.
All that day old boloney about the false claims on bottled water should be reported as false advertisement.
The doctors of today are specialist in one field like some of the posters on this form who pursue a single line of thought and it is easy to define the smell of poo in air as well as in the river. In the archives one will fine that the out of state water we are importing lacked only one point as being unsafe to drink, in a government test.
Not sure how to reply to all that...so, will just leave it alone, I guess.
Shadows, get with the times.
The Chinese have now stolen all the Japanese jobs, well except for the jobs American workers stole building Japanese cars here in the states.
Quote from: shadows on May 31, 2012, 01:15:52 AM
My history books on the civil war define the Battle of Round Mountain as the only battle in what is now Oklahoma.
Nah, there were several battles,
Here's Chusto-Talasah (Tulsa): http://www.nps.gov/hps/abpp/battles/ok002.htm
That's about 86th Street North and Delaware.
Quote from: shadows on May 31, 2012, 01:15:52 AM
My history books on the civil war define the Battle of Round Mountain as the only battle in what is now Oklahoma.
Which books are you referencing?
Shadowman, you're views on the river and water systems are limited and experiential. Facts are more reliable. Facts and experience are golden. What you're doing is just spreading gossip.
Quote from: Townsend on May 31, 2012, 12:07:26 PM
Which books are you referencing?
They might be written in Sanskrit.
Quote from: Hoss on May 31, 2012, 12:53:18 PM
They might be written in Sanskrit.
Whatever language is written in Makingcrapupasiwriteland.
Quote from: Townsend on May 31, 2012, 01:05:05 PM
Whatever language is written in Makingcrapupasiwriteland.
There are several on here. From different counties of the state, I'm sure...
Quote from: patric on May 31, 2012, 10:19:49 AM
Nah, there were several battles,
Here's Chusto-Talasah (Tulsa): http://www.nps.gov/hps/abpp/battles/ok002.htm
That's about 86th Street North and Delaware.
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Thinking the gist of the postings was on Aransas river seems there was a limited numbers of battles in the civil war that was fought on the river that was converted to a major sewer from the clear head waters up stream.
In fact history has a hard time reporting where the battles were fought in seeking the control of Indian territory.
OK shadows. Name a river in America that doesn't have waste water discharged into it.
Quote from: shadows on June 01, 2012, 10:28:06 PM
...................................................................................................
Thinking the gist of the postings was on Aransas river seems there was a limited numbers of battles in the civil war that was fought on the river that was converted to a major sewer from the clear head waters up stream.
In fact history has a hard time reporting where the battles were fought in seeking the control of Indian territory.
Well, brain wave, the battle of Round Mountain also was not on the Arkansas River. It was near the Cimmaron (which was mistakenly referred to as the Red Fork of the Arkansas) but even then no specific location can be confirmed. However, the battle of Chusto Talasah was the end result of Confederate soldiers who chased a group of indians (led by Yahola iirc) across the Arkansas River before engaging them at Bird Creek.
The Confederates weren't seeking control of Indian territory, they were seeking control of the Southern portion of the United States which included Oklahoma.
And please, stop showing your ignorance. The Cimarron has always been a sandy, salty, murky river upstream of Tulsa whereas the Arkansas is actually pretty clear until it merges with the Cimarron at Keystone. Neither is loaded with sewage even in the Tulsa area. What contamination does show up is in the form of fertilizer runoff, dog and animal feces from nearby homeowners and geese droppings. Those primarily after big rains.
Those water quality facts are available on Corps websites and through ODEQ. Or you could just stay stupid in which case you should concentrate on city refuse issues where you truly shine..
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 02, 2012, 07:08:22 AM
OK shadows. Name a river in America that doesn't have waste water discharged into it.
Yellowstone??
Looks pretty clean if it does get dumped in....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 02, 2012, 07:21:39 PM
Yellowstone??
Nope. Billings Montana discharges into the basin.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/wri/wri984269/anthropo.html
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 02, 2012, 08:58:02 PM
Nope. Billings Montana discharges into the basin.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/wri/wri984269/anthropo.html
Doesn't surprise me...gotta put it somewhere....still...very nice river down close to the park.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 02, 2012, 07:15:17 AM
Well, brain wave, the battle of Round Mountain also was not on the Arkansas River. It was near the Cimmaron (which was mistakenly referred to as the Red Fork of the Arkansas) but even then no specific location can be confirmed. However, the battle of Chusto Talasah was the end result of Confederate soldiers who chased a group of indians (led by Yahola iirc) across the Arkansas River before engaging them at Bird Creek.
The Confederates weren't seeking control of Indian territory, they were seeking control of the Southern portion of the United States which included Oklahoma.
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There is a sign on the highway on the south side of the Keystone dam, a short distance west of the dam pointing out the directions to the Round Mountain Battle field. Google says that the confederation fought it the battle for control of Indian Territory. The supposed encampment of the South Nation of some 1400 troops and horses would require water and space. If I were picking a spot I would say the battle happened near the encampment at the Three Forks.
The south was a completely formed nation who had joined the Union with the stipulation that if things did not work out then they could withdraw. (Quick check? Google) The war of 1860 was fought because the south wanted to exercise their right to succeed from the Northern Union.
RM: White River I believe as it flows out of the cliff at Van Buren, Mo., is not contaminated with any human waste.
Quote from: shadows on June 04, 2012, 05:01:06 PM
Quote from: AquaMan on June 02, 2012, 07:15:17 AM
Well, brain wave, the battle of Round Mountain also was not on the Arkansas River. It was near the Cimmaron (which was mistakenly referred to as the Red Fork of the Arkansas) but even then no specific location can be confirmed. However, the battle of Chusto Talasah was the end result of Confederate soldiers who chased a group of indians (led by Yahola iirc) across the Arkansas River before engaging them at Bird Creek.
The Confederates weren't seeking control of Indian territory, they were seeking control of the Southern portion of the United States which included Oklahoma.
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There is a sign on the highway on the south side of the Keystone dam, a short distance west of the dam pointing out the directions to the Round Mountain Battle field. Google says that the confederation fought it the battle for control of Indian Territory. The supposed encampment of the South Nation of some 1400 troops and horses would require water and space. If I were picking a spot I would say the battle happened near the encampment at the Three Forks.
The south was a completely formed nation who had joined the Union with the stipulation that if things did not work out then they could withdraw. (Quick check? Google) The war of 1860 was fought because the south wanted to exercise their right to succeed from the Northern Union.
RM: White River I believe as it flows out of the cliff at Van Buren, Mo., is not contaminated with any human waste.
The sign near Keystone was put up to commemorate a battle. They don't know where the battle took place. Can't even find any remains or artifacts. Just like the Creek Council tree is a commemorative location. They are not certain of the location and that certainly is not the tree. Nonetheless, it was not the only battle fought in Indian Territory.
You're view of the reasons for the Civil War are popular but hardly accurate. Texas says it never joined the Union too. Lots of these myths persist but the real reasons for the "war of aggression" as the south called it, are complex and related to money control (banking), states rights, capital assets (slaves), manufacturing disparity and plain old ignorant racism. Google isn't the definitive source for history.
BTW, what major cities are located on the White River? On the Illinois? No doubt local farmers are dumping chicken waste, fertilizer and human waste into those riversl. If I were you, I wouldn't be drinking water from anywhere.
The civil war was fought because slavery? "Four score and seven years ago........)
Last time I read the sign on the highway it directed one to the supposed battle field.
Seem some of us need a third grade history book.
Quote from: shadows on June 04, 2012, 05:01:06 PM
RM: White River I believe as it flows out of the cliff at Van Buren, Mo., is not contaminated with any human waste.
It might be clean when it comes out of a rock, but the City of Van Buren has three wastewater plants that quickly discharge into it. I am not so sure about how pure it is coming out of the rock because of the large number of aged septic systems in the area.
Quote from: shadows on June 04, 2012, 05:51:01 PM
The civil war was fought because slavery? "Four score and seven years ago........)
Last time I read the sign on the highway it directed one to the supposed battle field.
Seem some of us need a third grade history book.
You need to do better research on history and while you're at it perk up those reading and comprehension skills! I never said because of slavery. Slaves were capital assets for the Southern farmers. Like most wars, the reasons are complex and mostly economic related.
Oh, yeah. Follow the directions that the sign gives. I've read that sign. Good luck.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 04, 2012, 05:27:29 PM
If I were you, I wouldn't be drinking water from anywhere.
That's why beer was invented.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 28, 2012, 04:03:20 PM
I presume the lung cancer rate would be higher directly north and south of the refineries where the prevailing seasonal winds blow. The question is whether anyone is doing any statistical research to prove that.
edit: the corollary question would be, "does it matter?" It would be nice for the surrounding homeowners to be able to make an informed decision as to whether they should move or not.
This is something I've wondered about for years, especially since I lived by the river/refineries for 13 years. It definitely mattered which way the wind blew. The smell is often worst in the middle of the night. Someone once told me that the law regulates "visible plumes" coming from smoke stacks, so that makes you wonder what goes on under cover of night.
I would love to get some volunteers who live near the river to use the "Bucket Brigade" air sampling system. http://www.bucketbrigade.net/ (http://www.bucketbrigade.net/) This is an affordable means of air testing that was designed so that communities could get answers to "what's that smell?" and "is it dangerous?" The idea being that industry may not be exactly forthcoming with the information.
The sampling systems test for VOCs, sulfur compounds, particulates, heavy metals, etc.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 04, 2012, 06:27:49 PM
You need to do better research on history and while you're at it perk up those reading and comprehension skills! I never said because of slavery. Slaves were capital assets for the Southern farmers. Like most wars, the reasons are complex and mostly economic related.
Oh, yeah. Follow the directions that the sign gives. I've read that sign. Good luck.
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The South Confederacy by no means was a renegade bunch of persons. They had an existing government equal to that of the North. They coined and printed their own money. They lived a life style unparallel before or after the war. Lincoln married a southern bell. Two years after the war began and was floundering Lincoln introduced slavery as cause after the Gettysburg address in 1863.
The North freed the South's slaves, gave them guns, and promoted the destruction of the South.
Ok; have read the sign and followed it's instructions.
Quote from: shadows on June 04, 2012, 10:48:14 PM
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The South Confederacy by no means was a renegade bunch of persons. They had an existing government equal to that of the North. They coined and printed their own money. They lived a life style unparallel before or after the war. Lincoln married a southern bell. Two years after the war began and was floundering Lincoln introduced slavery as cause after the Gettysburg address in 1863.
The North freed the South's slaves, gave them guns, and promoted the destruction of the South.
Ok; have read the sign and followed it's instructions.
OK, you've just proven your education didn't go past the third grade. Or at the very least basic American history.
I am impressed with how Shadows can put so much wrong into so few sentences. His fictional account of the Civil War, if widely believed, explains a lot of lunacy in the current South.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 05, 2012, 05:37:19 AM
I am impressed with how Shadows can put so much wrong into so few sentences. His fictional account of the Civil War, if widely believed, explains a lot of lunacy in the current South.
It must be parsed and looked at point by point... Mary Todd was a "southern belle" from Kentucky - but that was a slave state that stayed in the Union. The south did have a government and coin/print money. Gettysburg Address was delivered after the north's first real victory - they had been getting whipped for two years. North freed southern slaves, but NOT northern slaves - that didn't happen for four years AFTER the war - letting the north keep their slaves, but putting another economic pressure on the south. Always made me wonder why Abe didn't do the right thing and declare emancipation for northern slaves, too?? He did a good thing, only it was just part of the job.
Guns were sent. Destruction of the south was promoted. Most people in the south did NOT own slaves, but were roused by the propaganda of southern leaders about how the north was "telling them what to do", and the economic pressure the north exerted on the south - which was real - send raw materials north cheap to be processed, and we will send finished goods back south expensive. There was also a lot of northern economic pressure to keep manufacturing from moving south.
Biggest thing in the post is that issue of slavery was one of the causes of the war, but states rights was at least as big - probably bigger - an issue. Kind of sounds like what we are hearing today from Texas....
Thank you. It was indeed a complex array of issues and policies. The president did not act in a vacuum however. The Congress and federal government had been wrestling with the issue of extending slavery into new states and limiting it in existing states for years before the war. It wasn't like they suddenly decided at Gettysburg that it was an issue.
The economic exploitation of the South and states rights issues imo were at least as strong as slavery as primary determinants of the war. But there is no denying that the efforts to stop expansion of slavery outside the south and to begin limiting its use through Federal efforts in all the states was perceived by influential slave owners as an infringement of their business rights. They saw their nearly free labor source being compromised.
I'm curious also as to when the South formed its own government and minted its own currency. I doubt it was much before the war was seen as inevitable. Shadows acts like it was similar to Native American governments that exist within the Federal framework. I am dubious of that. It was likely in preparation for war.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 05, 2012, 09:55:01 AM
I'm curious also as to when the South formed its own government and minted its own currency. I doubt it was much before the war was seen as inevitable. Shadows acts like it was similar to Native American governments that exist within the Federal framework. I am dubious of that. It was likely in preparation for war.
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h242.html (http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h242.html)
QuoteIn February 1861, representatives from the seven seceded states met in Montgomery, Alabama to found the Confederate States of America. They hoped for a peaceful separation from the North. They did not consider their secession to have been illegal, and they favored a constitution without radical innovations. The new constitution was remarkably similar to the U.S. Constitution, often a word-for-word duplication. Notable changes included:
A single-term executive with a 6-year term
A presidential item veto
A role for cabinet officials in congressional debates
A prohibition of protective tariffs and federal funding for internal improvements.
The unicameral legislature with active participation by cabinet members blends some aspects of the British House of Commons with the U.S. Congress. It's interesting to note that the international trade in slaves was prohibited, although naturally the right to own slaves within the Confederacy was maintained.
Various candidates for the position of president of the Confederacy emerged. William Yancey of Alabama was well qualified but the border states regarded him as too radical. Robert Toombs of Georgia was held back by his tendency towards intemperate speech. The ultimate choice was Jefferson Davis of Mississippi, a politician, planter, and war hero.
For vice-president, the Confederate Congress picked Senator Alexander Stephens of Georgia. This was not a fortunate choice, as Stephens wanted to be president and, failing that, spent the war years looking for a way out of it.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 05, 2012, 09:55:01 AM
Thank you. It was indeed a complex array of issues and policies. The president did not act in a vacuum however. The Congress and federal government had been wrestling with the issue of extending slavery into new states and limiting it in existing states for years before the war. It wasn't like they suddenly decided at Gettysburg that it was an issue.
The economic exploitation of the South and states rights issues imo were at least as strong as slavery as primary determinants of the war. But there is no denying that the efforts to stop expansion of slavery outside the south and to begin limiting its use through Federal efforts in all the states was perceived by influential slave owners as an infringement of their business rights. They saw their nearly free labor source being compromised.
I'm curious also as to when the South formed its own government and minted its own currency. I doubt it was much before the war was seen as inevitable. Shadows acts like it was similar to Native American governments that exist within the Federal framework. I am dubious of that. It was likely in preparation for war.
Correction to what I said earlier - 13th Amendment was 1865. Only about three years after declared illegal in the south (Jan 1863 to Dec 1865). Still not sure why it took even that long....
The abomination had been debated for decades, and fought over at one level or another for much of that time. No doubt a very strong motivator for war.
I have read discussions in the past that said that slavery was becoming uneconomic, even in the rural south, by the time the Civil War occurred. Not sure about that, but it certainly seems like the industrial north had discovered that the freeman put into a job that approximated the working conditions, without the other living conditions required of slavery, ended up giving them a "captive audience" without the added expense of housing/food/clothing, etc. And the moneys paid most likely in the overall scheme of things ended up being cheaper than the infrastructure needed to support that "Peculiar Institution".
I can certainly see how the advent of newer, more productive farm implements like developed in the early to mid 20th would have no doubt had a major effect - a couple of people needed to do what used to take 50 or 100. One way or the other, slavery was likely to be gone, either way it was just WAY too late!!
Townsend: Even though the articles on nearly any subject can be found on the internet reflecting one person's opinion, it still is an enormous asset to the generations that will come after us. The war liken many subjects, was fought between brothers. The march of General Sherman across the South, burning and destroying the southern plantations as well as a way of life that has never been duplicated. We are resorting to another act of slavery only this time we call it taxation which destroys nations.
Since the internet gained such popularity we seem to rely on it and let the text books gather dust. We have relied on our memory of text books only to find it is like many things is subject to aging. The text book will become obsolete as well as the schools which will succumb as the electronic marvels replace the fragile human memory.
Quote from: shadows on June 05, 2012, 02:16:31 PM
The text book will become obsolete
Agreed. Just taking a damned sight longer than it should.
Quote from: Townsend on June 05, 2012, 02:28:45 PM
Agreed. Just taking a damned sight longer than it should.
Books will only be gone after I'm gone - 'cause I ain't giving them up!
To paraphrase; I'll give up my books when you pry them from my cold dead hands.
Love an e-Reader for travel, but nothing comes close to an actual paper book for reading enjoyment.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 05, 2012, 03:35:25 PM
Books will only be gone after I'm gone - 'cause I ain't giving them up!
To paraphrase; I'll give up my books when you pry them from my cold dead hands.
Love an e-Reader for travel, but nothing comes close to an actual paper book for reading enjoyment.
Text books. They should all be available on a reader.
Kids should not have to carry half their weight from class to class and college students shouldn't have to pay hundreds or thousands for books every semester.
Quote from: Townsend on June 05, 2012, 03:42:59 PM
Text books. They should all be available on a reader.
Kids should not have to carry half their weight from class to class and college students shouldn't have to pay hundreds or thousands for books every semester.
Texts on readers are great for going to class, but I still want the paper for home and future reference.
Too difficult to make notes on the screen of the reader...
And when are they gonna offer a 'bundle' for books? Buy the paper and get the digital for small extra. Or included - even better!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 05, 2012, 05:04:17 PM
Too difficult to make notes on the screen of the reader...
You know you can...you know what? You're right. Books are great for some folks.
Quote from: Townsend on June 05, 2012, 05:07:09 PM
You know you can...you know what? You're right. Books are great for some folks.
Yes, I do know... My Clippings is what it's called in Kindle.
Still easier to make notes on the page, right next to the section the note is about. (I use post-its, too, as tabs at the top of the book, with written notes/keywords there.)
And yes, you are right - books are great!
Quote from: Townsend on June 05, 2012, 03:42:59 PM
Text books. They should all be available on a reader.
Kids should not have to carry half their weight from class to class and college students shouldn't have to pay hundreds or thousands for books every semester.
I guess the non-technical world hasn't caught up with the concept of charge the same for a digital copy as a paper copy. The thought process seems to be that you are paying for the intellectual property, not the cost of publishing.
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 05, 2012, 07:03:11 PM
I guess the non-technical world hasn't caught up with the concept of charge the same for a digital copy as a paper copy. The thought process seems to be that you are paying for the intellectual property, not the cost of publishing.
When supply and demand gets to the market, you will be able to get the digital when you buy paper. Right now, they are sticking it to you for double price for the same thing. Market saturation is the friend of the consumer.