QuoteCiting 'this is about jobs,' Tulsa County may have airport tax to support airline businesses
By P.J. LASSEK & BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writers
Published: 5/22/2012 2:30 AM
Last Modified: 5/22/2012 4:23 AM
Tulsa County voters likely will be asked on the Nov. 6 ballot to approve a roughly $340 million tax package to benefit American Airlines and airport industrial businesses, multiple sources said Monday.
The total for what is now being called "Vision For Jobs" includes $260 million for airport-related infrastructure improvements and $80 million for a "deal-closing fund" that would be governed by an authority and doled out as business incentives, according to sources.
"I think the sooner we begin the discussion with everyone in the county the better," County Commission Chairman John Smaligo told the Tulsa World.
"I think all of our regional leaders need to figure out what kind of proposal they might be willing to support."
Mayor Dewey Bartlett said he has not taken a position on the proposal and has not made any promises to American Airlines.
"I'm in the process of exploring our options," he said. "But this is about jobs, plain and simple."
Tulsa Metro Chamber President Mike Neal said the American Airlines' situation, "has pushed aerospace jobs to the forefront of the minds of many of our business and community leaders as well as citizens."
"The airline employs 7,200 and the risk of it going away could be potentially devastating having catastrophic impact on our community and the region," he said.
Neal said the goal for some time has been to try to "support, preserve and position" the aerospace industry as a whole for continued growth which means upgrading the many city-owned facilities, some of which are World War II vintage.
Possible funding: Elected officials are still debating the funding mechanism.
One option is to ask voters to approve a four-tenths-of a-cent tax increase for about seven years.
It would basically amount to the Vision 2025 share approved by voters in 2003 to lure Boeing, but since Boeing never came, the tax was never collected.
That would push the city's tax rate to nearly 9 cents on the dollar.
Another option is an early renewal of the Tulsa County Vision 2025 tax, extending it years beyond its 2017 expiration date so there's no increase to the actual tax rate.
Neal said the process is very fluid and area officials had hoped to have time to build a consensus on the details of a tax package before the information went public.
It will be up to the three-member Tulsa County Commission whether a countywide tax package moves forward.
Smaligo said he is pushing for the option with no net tax rate increase.
County Commissioner Karen Keith said she doesn't know where she stands.
"It's all so nebulous right now," she said.
County Commissioner Fred Perry said, "I'm still looking at whether anything should go on the ballot at this point. I'm asking a lot of questions."
But Perry said he, too, would prefer no net rate increase.
Package items: Among the improvements considered for funding are revamping the American Airlines maintenance hangars so that newer planes like Boeing 737 with taller tail fins can fit inside for repairs, other building infrastructure needs, and equipment related items, said Airport Director Jeff Mulder, noting it also includes the Air Force Plant No. 3 which houses Spirit Aero Systems and the IC Bus Corp.
Elected officials said those changes are needed to make the airport facilities marketable, regardless of what happens with American Airlines' bankruptcy proceedings and the airline's future in Tulsa.
Neal said the process of "aggressively reaching out" to other aerospace companies, other airlines and third-party maintenance vendors to make them aware of the work force, and the sizable facilities has been under way for some time.
"But what we hear is that you have to continue to make those infrastructure investments to ensure you have state-of-the art facilities to attract companies," he said.
Smaligo said officials are trying to figure out what "the best option is to try to and make sure that the resources we have at the airport and in the region are viable."
Perry said no one wants to see American Airlines jobs go away.
But he emphasized, "No one is proposing writing any checks to a specific company. I would certainly not support that."
The facilities are owned by the public, Perry noted, and any tax investment would stay with them.
Bartlett agreed, saying. "This is all property we own, and like any property, it must be properly maintained."
The mayor said he doesn't know whether the proposed package would help preserve American Airlines' presence in Tulsa.
But he said the improvements would support the thousands of jobs at the airport and help attract new ones.
Incentive fund: Neal said a "deal-closing fund" is critical to compete in today's global market noting that Oklahoma City has one with about $75 million and it was created through one of the MAPS initiatives.
The legislature also approved a "quick-closing" fund, which has no funding, but state chambers have agreed to provide it funding, he said.
Neal said the fund would be available to all Tulsa County municipalities and would be overseen by some sort of public county authority.
Keith said that it's unfortunate, "but in order to compete in today's climate a city, a region has to have some incentive ability. It's the game that is being played."
Keith said she would support such a fund if she was ensured that there were protections for taxpayers.
"You don't want to give an incentive to a company that comes in for only two years and then leaves," she said."No taxpayer is going to support some open-ended fund."
Bartlett said such "deal-closing funds" have been beneficial elsewhere but one must be carefully crafted to be efficient.
"It could give us a real leg up in competing for new business," he said.
Public polling: Neal confirmed that polling has been conducted on a possible tax package, but would not give the results.
He did say that the message learned was there is an overwhelming support to grow, retain, and attract jobs.
Sources say the polling indicated that a tax promoted as an American Airlines package would be rejected. It would do better if touted as a jobs package, but it would still fail, sources said.
Past tax money to American Airlines
Vision 2025: Voters approved $22.3 million in 2003 for equipment purchases at its maintenance and engineering center at the airport.
State and local: The state's Opportunity Fund in 2007 provided $5.7 million, while $4.3 million in local funds were used to build Hangar 80, an aircraft overhaul and repair facility.
What would four-tenths of a cent sales tax increase mean for Tulsa's overall tax rate?
It would take the city's sales-tax rate to 8.917 cents on the dollar, including 4.5 cents to the state, 3.157 cents to the city, and boost the county's share to 1.26 cents.
Wow. In this economy, does the county really think this won't go over like a turd in a punch bowl?
Look, I'm all for keeping AA here. But let AA upper management take the hit. Not the county residents.
"newer planes like the Boeing 737"
?
I think they should not waste the time and money it will take to market this thing towards its inevitable failure.
After it fails, fingers can be pointed and claims of "we tried" can be made.
Quote from: Townsend on May 22, 2012, 10:04:06 AM
After it fails, fingers can be pointed and claims of "we tried" can be made.
Politicians are always in CYA mode. It's much easier for them to do it with other people's money.
Quote from: erfalf on May 22, 2012, 10:14:41 AM
Politicians are always in CYA mode. It's much easier for them to do it with other people's money.
If they frame it as an extension to V2025 without the 4/10ths of a percent increase, it *might* pass. But otherwise it's doomed I think. The hypocrisy of many politicians in this economic environment of denouncing corporate bailouts at the expense of the taxpayer and then proposing this is astounding.
in answer to your thread question....yes. Yes, they do. They are planning on it.
Just how exactly do you tell the voters this will create jobs at AA when they are mulling cutting 2400 or so jobs in their bankruptcy procedures?
Sooner or later companies like AA will run out of gullible communities who will bend over at the drop of a hat and open their checkbook.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 22, 2012, 10:47:06 AM
Just how exactly do you tell the voters this will create jobs at AA when they are mulling cutting 2400 or so jobs in their bankruptcy procedures?
"We need to save as many as we can." That's a guess.
I am not saying I am for it, but isn't it refreshing to see politicians willing to try to raise revenues? After the Tea Party crap and our governor slashing taxes at the expense of needed programs like education, I am hopeful.
I am willing to pay a little more for a better world.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 22, 2012, 11:02:45 AM
I am not saying I am for it, but isn't it refreshing to see politicians willing to try to raise revenues? After the Tea Party crap and our governor slashing taxes at the expense of needed programs like education, I am hopeful.
I am willing to pay a little more for a better world.
So am I, and I'm glad to see investment in updating public facilities, but we can all read and have been following the history of AA. It is a hard to sell that they wouldn't just fold up and leave anyway or drastically cut staff and still benefit from our contribution.
The only thing they said that makes sense is the fact that we own the properties and should bring them up to date if we intend to rent them to anyone else. Anyone who has talked to an IC workers knows the buildings are horrible to work in.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 22, 2012, 11:31:58 AM
The only thing they said that makes sense is the fact that we own the properties and should bring them up to date if we intend to rent them to anyone else. Anyone who has talked to an IC workers knows the buildings are horrible to work in.
Someone may have to prove to the few of us that vote that there will be takers if we do upgrade the facilities.
Quote from: Townsend on May 22, 2012, 11:36:32 AM
Someone may have to prove to the few of us that vote that there will be takers if we do upgrade the facilities.
You still paint your house even if its not for sale. ;)
Quote from: AquaMan on May 22, 2012, 11:40:37 AM
You still paint your house even if its not for sale. ;)
If I was pretty sure it'd be up for sale in the near future I'd want to make it was sellable.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 22, 2012, 11:02:45 AM
I am not saying I am for it, but isn't it refreshing to see politicians willing to try to raise revenues? After the Tea Party crap and our governor slashing taxes at the expense of needed programs like education, I am hopeful.
I am willing to pay a little more for a better world.
Me too!
Curious how people don't realize the company already failed and this is the attempt to move forward. I find it interesting that some posters are willing to allow "non profit" religious institutions avoid paying taxes rationalizing they add so much to our economic base and want to harm that same base if it means instating a tax already accepted but not placed.
Upside out and inside down, it's the only game in town. If this were xyz company, we'd all be for this proposal if it meant luring 2400 employees. Because AA has a stigma attached to it is no reason to abandon our work force now. US Air will be a worthy corporate citizen now that there's a future. Let's keep the working man from losing despite corporate welfare. If this weren't about the working man, I'd say forget it.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 22, 2012, 11:58:01 AM
Me too!
Curious how people don't realize the company already failed and this is the attempt to move forward. I find it interesting that some posters are willing to allow "non profit" religious institutions avoid paying taxes rationalizing they add so much to our economic base and want to harm that same base if it means instating a tax already accepted but not placed.
Upside out and inside down, it's the only game in town. If this were xyz company, we'd all be for this proposal if it meant luring 2400 employees. Because AA has a stigma attached to it is no reason to abandon our work force now. US Air will be a worthy corporate citizen now that there's a future. Let's keep the working man from losing despite corporate welfare. If this weren't about the working man, I'd say forget it.
There's a difference between a land-owner not paying property tax and a regressive sales tax imposed on everyone. I can afford a sales tax increase, but those on fixed incomes and working for minimum wage lose more spending power. Half a cent doesn't make much of a difference to me personally.
So you think corporate welfare on the backs of the poor and elderly is just?
This is precisely what property tax should be for.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 22, 2012, 02:04:05 PM
There's a difference between a land-owner not paying property tax and a regressive sales tax imposed on everyone. I can afford a sales tax increase, but those on fixed incomes and working for minimum wage lose more spending power. Half a cent doesn't make much of a difference to me personally.
So you think corporate welfare on the backs of the poor and elderly is just?
Yes, when it benefits our community. And actually, this is more like a hand up than a hand out....
It's not a regressive tax and as you point out and it will not make a big difference to the poor and the elderly. Little impact overall and not like the coming changes in the tax code that will hurt the %1ers. :o
If you were Mayor, would you propose cutting services and lowering taxes? Do you think it's fair that every year there's basically an increase in ad valorem taxes that hurts fixed incomers? In 20 years, my property taxes have almost tripled while the city withers. Whine for us, Conan.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 22, 2012, 03:03:27 PM
Yes, when it benefits our community. And actually, this is more like a hand up than a hand out....
It's not a regressive tax and as you point out and it will not make a big difference to the poor and the elderly. Little impact overall and not like the coming changes in the tax code that will hurt the %1ers. :o
If you were Mayor, would you propose cutting services and lowering taxes? Do you think it's fair that every year there's basically an increase in ad valorem taxes that hurts fixed incomers? In 20 years, my property taxes have almost tripled while the city withers. Whine for us, Conan.
Most definitely a closet conservative. I've known it all along!
Now I haven't been keeping a real close eye on all of this, but didn't I see that AA had made a proposal and the Union flat out turned it down? Do we know what kind of proposal was made? Why should we fight to keep people employed when the only reason they would be unemployed would be greed?
American Airlines' past dip in the Vision 2025 pool and its recent "failure" leading to bankruptcy make this a hard sell That the citizens own the facilities and need to invest in updating/improving them are good arguments, but the opponents' ads practically write themselves.
Quote from: DTowner on May 22, 2012, 05:09:22 PM
American Airlines' past dip in the Vision 2025 pool and its recent "failure" leading to bankruptcy make this a hard sell That the citizens own the facilities and need to invest in updating/improving them are good arguments, but the opponents' ads practically write themselves.
All they have to do is show that drawing of the islands in the middle of the Arkansas river and ask "Is this what you want?". That will crush it.
Quote from: Townsend on May 22, 2012, 05:17:54 PM
All they have to do is show that drawing of the islands in the middle of the Arkansas river and ask "Is this what you want?". That will crush it.
In fairness, the Channels suffered from poor conception and the river package that was voted down suffered from poor timing, poor political strategy and Channel stink spill over. To me, the most effective argument against any more money for AA is "been there, done that" and they are still cutting jobs.
Quote from: custosnox on May 22, 2012, 04:11:47 PM
Now I haven't been keeping a real close eye on all of this, but didn't I see that AA had made a proposal and the Union flat out turned it down? Do we know what kind of proposal was made? Why should we fight to keep people employed when the only reason they would be unemployed would be greed?
Did you miss the part about 5 out of 7 groups of TWU-represented employees
accepting the AA proposal? The mechanics turned it down because it asked us to give up far more than any other unionized airline workers in the country. The World had a glowing report describing a 7% wage increase, but left out that it's 7% spread over 6 years AND that AA wants to impose higher deductions that would more than wipe out that 7%. AA wants to eliminate retiree medical insurance entirely, and most of us have been paying into that since we hired in.
I know, I know. It's an article of faith among some Oklahomans that unions are both greedy and lazy. That's not going to change. Consider, however, when your seatbelt is firmly fastened and the airplane is at 30,000 feet, whether it's better to have that airplane maintained by well-paid (and unionized) employees or have it maintained by those who work for the least amount of money. The airlines are on a race to the bottom and they're outsourcing maintenance to the lowest bidder as part of that.
I'm one of those greedy employees. AA took 20% of my pay in 2003 in what was laughably called a negotiation. When someone holds a gun to your head, they're not negotiating - trust me. TWU gave up roughly the same amount that upper management awarded themselves in bonuses, all this while the company wasn't making a profit. We could be working for free and management would complain about labor costs. We've been well-trained to disbelieve anything management says and pay careful attention to what they do.
Quote from: Ed W on May 22, 2012, 09:06:37 PM
AA wants to eliminate retiree medical insurance entirely, and most of us have been paying into that since we hired in.
I support you on that issue. They owe you the accrued benefit to date. If they insist on no future in that regard, you will have to decide whether or not that is acceptable.
Quote
Consider, however, when your seatbelt is firmly fastened and the airplane is at 30,000 feet, whether it's better to have that airplane maintained by well-paid (and unionized) employees or have it maintained by those who work for the least amount of money. The airlines are on a race to the bottom and they're outsourcing maintenance to the lowest bidder as part of that.
I want the plane I am riding in to be maintained by well trained, competent personnel. Generally they will be well paid or they will go elsewhere. I really don't care if they are unionized or not.
Quote
I'm one of those greedy employees. AA took 20% of my pay in 2003 in what was laughably called a negotiation. When someone holds a gun to your head, they're not negotiating - trust me. TWU gave up roughly the same amount that upper management awarded themselves in bonuses, all this while the company wasn't making a profit. We could be working for free and management would complain about labor costs. We've been well-trained to disbelieve anything management says and pay careful attention to what they do.
I was told in 1993 that I and the rest of the salaried employees of the small company I worked for were going to take a 25% cut. It included top boss and down. Where AA lost my support is in awarding bonuses to top execs without including the guys that made the big sacrifice at the bottom. Splitting up the bonuses to all would probably not have amounted to much when divided so many ways but the gesture would have done a lot of good for relations between management and labor.
Yeah, what Red said.
Ed, curious what you think as a Tulsa County citizen what the response of AA employees will be of such a proposal?
If AA insists on cutting retirement health insurance, at least from my family's experience, Medicare doesn't seem too bad if you have good supplemental coverage. So long as they would pay for a good supplemental policy, I'd think benefits should be similar, yes? I still disagree with shirking off the responsibility of what's been promised for your entire career on the part of your employer but if they did get away with it, just saying it's not all doom and gloom.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 22, 2012, 03:48:29 PM
Most definitely a closet conservative. I've known it all along!
Conan, I've always said I was a fiscal conservative. The only closet is the one you are in. ;D
The vote for a county wide sales tax may depend on what each city is already charging.
City Sales tax on top of State and County
Tulsa: 3.167
Bixby: 3.50
Jenks: 3.00
Sand Springs: 3.50
Owasso: 3.00
Glenpool: 4.00
Broken Arrow: 3.00
http://www.tax.ok.gov/publicat/copos/copo3Q12.pdf
Quote from: Ed W on May 22, 2012, 09:06:37 PM
Did you miss the part about 5 out of 7 groups of TWU-represented employees accepting the AA proposal? The mechanics turned it down because it asked us to give up far more than any other unionized airline workers in the country. The World had a glowing report describing a 7% wage increase, but left out that it's 7% spread over 6 years AND that AA wants to impose higher deductions that would more than wipe out that 7%. AA wants to eliminate retiree medical insurance entirely, and most of us have been paying into that since we hired in.
I know, I know. It's an article of faith among some Oklahomans that unions are both greedy and lazy. That's not going to change. Consider, however, when your seatbelt is firmly fastened and the airplane is at 30,000 feet, whether it's better to have that airplane maintained by well-paid (and unionized) employees or have it maintained by those who work for the least amount of money. The airlines are on a race to the bottom and they're outsourcing maintenance to the lowest bidder as part of that.
I'm one of those greedy employees. AA took 20% of my pay in 2003 in what was laughably called a negotiation. When someone holds a gun to your head, they're not negotiating - trust me. TWU gave up roughly the same amount that upper management awarded themselves in bonuses, all this while the company wasn't making a profit. We could be working for free and management would complain about labor costs. We've been well-trained to disbelieve anything management says and pay careful attention to what they do.
I've worked out at AA, and I've seen the greed and stupidity associated with the union out there. You can pretend it's not there all you want, but it doesn't keep it from being true. And from what I've seen, the union does everything to keep their people in the shop, qualified or not, so them being union isn't a selling point to me on if a plane is going to be well maintained. I've also seen where you have well paid employees who are relatively sure of their job position not do quality work because there is no accountability, where as I've also seen low paid employees do an excellent job because if they didn't they were heading out the door. While I believe that a job well done deserves a payment that reflects the work and quality, unions seem to be more about making sure the payment is made regardless of how well it was done.
If these facilities are owned by the city, then the proposed tax shouldn't be billed as one for AA. It should be billed as a "Tulsa Taxpayer Owned Facilities, Maintenance and Investment" tax, or "Tulsa Facilities, Maintenance and Investment" tax. Also, why would AA or any other company want to spend millions improving something they would not own? There is only so much work I would do to a place I was renting.
Quote from: TheArtist on May 23, 2012, 06:44:16 AM
If these facilities are owned by the city, then the proposed tax shouldn't be billed as one for AA. It should be billed as a "Tulsa Taxpayer Owned Facilities, Maintenance and Investment" tax, or "Tulsa Facilities, Maintenance and Investment" tax. Also, why would AA or any other company want to spend millions improving something they would not own? There is only so much work I would do to a place I was renting.
I agree with you as far as the labelling of the tax. However, it is quite common for renters to improve premises they do not own and are not reimbursed for those improvements. Often times the landlord specifically notes that the improvements may not be reversed or taken with the renter. Just a cost of doing business.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 23, 2012, 09:27:30 AM
I agree with you as far as the labelling of the tax. However, it is quite common for renters to improve premises they do not own and are not reimbursed for those improvements. Often times the landlord specifically notes that the improvements may not be reversed or taken with the renter. Just a cost of doing business.
Most commercial leases are triple net, meaning the tenant is responsible for maintenance, etc. However, not sure a buiding like this can be considered a "normal" lease. Problem is, it is all about leverage in the negotiations.
"Does the County think we residents are stupid?"
Yes, they do. Why do you ask?
Quote from: Townsend on May 22, 2012, 11:44:12 AM
If I was pretty sure it'd be up for sale in the near future I'd want to make it was sellable.
Yep. And also paint it the color that potential buyers might like. Enough metaphoring....
There are many among of us beside the county think us as stupid who have become intoxicated by the pink gas drifting out of the glass tower, including those who promoted the buying of a city hall and being landlord of others businesses in the building, that dictated the terms of the building use which prohibited a sign being placed on the property designating it as also the city hall. This while evacuating the former paid for city hall building , paid for by taxing the aged and working poor which was sold for near a tenth of the appraised value, that was touted as to be our permit city hall, in a transaction that will cost the citizens multi-millions of dollars.
City/County is to raise the tax monies to support a business that is unable to conduct a business in a profitable manner in a building given to the city by the Feds, at the cities request, when Douglas sought to purchase the building for millions in order to continue their manufacturing of air planes in Tulsa.
It’s now a possible that half of AA employees do not live and spend in the City/County but in other Cities and Counties. And we are going to increase our out of pocket expenses to support jobs for these outsourced cities and counties?
The price of most of the necessities for support such as utilities, food and clothing has increased for 10 to 100% over the past year. Since the sales taxes are tied to the retail prices then the sale taxes (the out of pocket expenses to survive) have increased that 10 to 100% and when we talk about extending a sales tax that was voted on that had a predetermined life, we increase the sales taxes (out of pocket expense) on the aged, working poor, retires and etc.
AA was supposed to be an accredited business. Now if that be true they should stand on their own feet not those of the citizen by increasing the citizen’s out of pocket expenses. It they were to leave the city would restructure its self and continue to grow
Now anyone who don’t think we are stupid it is time to stand up.
When I was a young teen, a local gasoline station (Pemco I think) humorously advertised that they used pink air in their compressors so that patrons could readily identify leaks in their tires.
Lots of people believed in it.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 24, 2012, 10:21:54 AM
When I was a young teen, a local gasoline station (Pemco I think) humorously advertised that they used pink air in their compressors so that patrons could readily identify leaks in their tires.
Lots of people believed in it.
Worked at a bar with "Free beer tomorrow" tacked behind me on a sign.
Some brainiacs came in the next day and were angry that it was once again "free beer tomorrow".
I believe they later became Oklahoma representatives.
Quote from: Townsend on May 24, 2012, 10:28:24 AM
Worked at a bar with "Free beer tomorrow" tacked behind me on a sign.
Some brainiacs came in the next day and were angry that it was once again "free beer tomorrow".
I believe they later became Oklahoma representatives.
Sully was a regular?
Quote from: Conan71 on May 24, 2012, 10:30:08 AM
Sully was a regular?
None of them were once they were angered by the sign...and my look of disdain.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 24, 2012, 10:21:54 AM
When I was a young teen, a local gasoline station (Pemco I think) humorously advertised that they used pink air in their compressors so that patrons could readily identify leaks in their tires.
Lots of people believed in it.
Did you let some air out to see it?
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 24, 2012, 12:15:11 PM
Did you let some air out to see it?
I probably did! BTW, it was actually FINA who ran the promotion. Cute, but overestimated the scientific knowledge of its customers.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 24, 2012, 12:27:51 PM
I probably did! BTW, it was actually FINA who ran the promotion. Cute, but overestimated the scientific knowledge of its customers.
I don't remember FINA stations back east. I'm sure we had some goofy promotion gimmicks but I don't remember any at the moment.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 24, 2012, 12:27:51 PM
I probably did! BTW, it was actually FINA who ran the promotion. Cute, but overestimated the scientific knowledge of its customers.
(http://bp1.blogger.com/_iknF7ZeUKfg/RfnfoUtNoxI/AAAAAAAAABw/plCaFyFpVH4/s320/pflash.jpg)