Or the streets that feed my development....
QuoteMontereau Retirement Community gets stay in tax case
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120519_16_A15_CUTLIN943739
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120519_16_A15_CUTLIN943739
By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
Published: 5/19/2012 2:14 AM
Last Modified: 5/19/2012 4:48 AM
A Tulsa County judge this week agreed to consider the Montereau Retirement Community's request that the Assessor's Office be directed to exempt the nonprofit entity from taxation.
District Judge Mary Fitzgerald issued an emergency stay in all administrative appeals in the case Thursday and scheduled oral arguments for June 5.
Attorney Joel Wohlgemuth requested the stay on behalf of his clients, Montereau Inc. and the William K. Warren Medical Research Center, which owns the land.
In his petition, Wohlgemuth states that Tulsa County Assessor Ken Yazel has recognized Montereau's exemption as a licensed continuum of care retirement center since it was granted in 2001.
"However, this year the Assessor placed the property on the assessment roll based on his apparently new belief that the CCRC (continuum of care retirement center) Exemption Statute, which he has consistently applied for years, is now unconstitutional," the petition states.
After being notified in February that the property had been assessed a taxable value of $178,990,012, representatives of Montereau met with the Assessor's Office for an informal hearing to challenge the assessment.
On May 14, the Assessor's Office sent a letter to Montereau stating that the taxable value of the property had been lowered to $107,394,007.
The estimated property taxes due on a property of that value is $1.5 million based on last year's millage rate, according to the Assessor's Office.
Montereau - and all property owners who go through the informal protest process - can appeal the Assessor's Office's decision to the Tulsa County Equalization Board.
But in his petition for a stay, Wohlgemuth argues that only the court has the authority to address the core issue in question: whether the assessor "has a duty to exempt property pursuant to Oklahoma statute regardless of his personal view of the statute's constitutionality."
Montereau is not the first nonprofit entity to challenge Yazel's interpretation of the continuum of care retirement center exemption.
In April, an attorney for Baptist Village Retirement Centers accused Yazel of "attacking sick, elderly people" after that entity received an assessment on its Owasso facility - the first time that had happened.
As he did in April, Yazel this week asserted that the county's licensed continuum of care facilities, including Montereau and Baptist Village, were among approximately 2,500 tax-exempt properties whose classifications were re-examined this year as part of the Assessor's Office's legally mandated duties.
Other licensed continuum of care facilities whose nonexempt status also was being reviewed were Franciscan Villa, St. Simeon's Episcopal Home, the Tulsa Jewish Retirement Community and Health Care Center, and the Villages at Southern Hills.
Yazel said his office must determine whether each property in Montereau is properly classified as a continuum of care facility that can be exempt from property taxes when operated by a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization and meeting other criteria in law or whether it should receive another classification.
Those structures not deemed to be exempt continue to be taxable and are assessed accordingly, he said.
"First of all, they have much more out there than they are licensed for," Yazel said. "You can be exempted for various reasons, (but) that doesn't apply to building a village out there, which is seemingly what they have done.
"They have all kinds of amenities - they have valet parking, a restaurant, an eight-story apartment building - and if you take that value, which is very conservative, and divide it by the number of licensed beds, that's more than $1 million per licensed bed."
Original Print Headline: Montereau gets stay in tax case
Ken Yazel has guts!"You can be exempted for various reasons, (but) that doesn't apply to building a village out there, which is seemingly what they have done."
Agreed. Typical tax dodge behavior along with rationalization. Load shifting.
Those taxes cover things like educating theirs and others grand children so they don't become total criminals who raid your village etc. Perhaps they should pay for all services the community provides on an as needed basis.
I grew up in an older neighborhood where the residents routinely opposed school millage increases. They reasoned that their children had already been educated and they had paid their fair share. I'm sure that logic still exists. It fails the community.
What happened to the praise you had for the Warren Foundation a few weeks ago about all the jobs they create via direct employment plus all the construction jobs supported by their ever-expanding empire. St. Francis Hospital also does provide somewhat of a charity service to the community. At last count, there's probably 8000 to 10,000 people paying property, sales, and income tax in this area as a result of WF's operations and expenditures. Would it kill the Warren Foundation to pay property tax on it's various operations? Probably not. Are they not contributing to the community at large? Let's hear some opinions.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2012, 08:29:22 PM
What happened to the praise you had for the Warren Foundation a few weeks ago about all the jobs they create via direct employment plus all the construction jobs supported by their ever-expanding empire. St. Francis Hospital also does provide somewhat of a charity service to the community. At last count, there's probably 8000 to 10,000 people paying property, sales, and income tax in this area as a result of WF's operations and expenditures. Would it kill the Warren Foundation to pay property tax on it's various operations? Probably not. Are they not contributing to the community at large? Let's hear some opinions.
Are you talking about my
assessment of 91st and 169? There was no praise....
Praise the lord :D, but I've been consistent about 5013c's. Criticizing their use of government welfare will continue.
The government provides far more jobs. I don't hear you defending them... :o
Quote from: AquaMan on May 19, 2012, 10:30:14 AM
Agreed. Typical tax dodge behavior along with rationalization. Load shifting.
Those taxes cover things like educating theirs and others grand children so they don't become total criminals who raid your village etc. Perhaps they should pay for all services the community provides on an as needed basis.
I grew up in an older neighborhood where the residents routinely opposed school millage increases. They reasoned that their children had already been educated and they had paid their fair share. I'm sure that logic still exists. It fails the community.
To answer the question: NO. I am responsible for educating my kids ONLY--which I do. Over the course of history we have convinced ourselves that it IS everyone's responsibility to provide an education--even those persons having no children. Is it wrong to do so? Of course not. Children--every child--should get an education.
Haven't we already had this discussion numerous times? Yes. we have. But now we can have it again while bashing tax exemptions of non-profits.
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 02:02:20 AM
To answer the question: NO. I am responsible for educating my kids ONLY--which I do. Over the course of history we have convinced ourselves that it IS everyone's responsibility to provide an education--even those persons having no children. Is it wrong to do so? Of course not. Children--every child--should get an education.
Haven't we already had this discussion numerous times? Yes. we have. But now we can have it again while bashing tax exemptions of non-profits.
Ridiculous. In fact I had presumed you to be a lot smarter than those remarks imply. In the future everyone will have their own 501-3c's. We can all live on our own islands and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. Just like you.
I'm about to conclude that this forum isn't nearly as erudite and insightful as I thought. Lots of fools who don't mind parroting other peoples extreme views from extreme organizations with very few pragmatics. Oh, well. Maybe that's just what Tulsa is.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 19, 2012, 09:39:33 PM
Are you talking about my assessment of 91st and 169? There was no praise....
Praise the lord :D, but I've been consistent about 5013c's. Criticizing their use of government welfare will continue.
The government provides far more jobs. I don't hear you defending them... :o
By comparison of tax dollars spent on directly employing government workers in Tulsa vs. the tax breaks the the Warren Foundation gets and the number of jobs created by each, the Warren Foundation ends up putting more money back in the economy and costs the tax payers far less.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2012, 08:16:05 AM
I'm about to conclude that this forum isn't nearly as erudite and insightful as I thought.
Stay gold, Ponyboy.
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 02:02:20 AM
To answer the question: NO. I am responsible for educating my kids ONLY--which I do. Over the course of history we have convinced ourselves that it IS everyone's responsibility to provide an education--even those persons having no children.
This is the crux of your failure.
Why do you think that when our founders laid out our country that they insisted on having a certain amount of land (60 acres I believe) set aside for each township that was dedicated to education? That land was for educating children and the cost of that land was spread out over the entire population, those with and without children.
So, no, it wasn't over the course of history, it was at the beginning of our history.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2012, 09:41:56 AM
This is the crux of your failure.
Why do you think that when our founders laid out our country that they insisted on having a certain amount of land (60 acres I believe) set aside for each township that was dedicated to education? That land was for educating children and the cost of that land was spread out over the entire population, those with and without children.
So, no, it wasn't over the course of history, it was at the beginning of our history.
Interesting article about public education and land grants.
I can't make the link directly bring up the article but Google
"Public Schools and the Original Federal Land Grant Program" and look at the pdf by the Center on Education Policy. It should show up first on the list.
This link should get you to the link to the article.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=public+schools+and+the+original+federal+land+grant+program&oq=public+schools+and+the+original+federal+land+grant+program&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_l=hp.3...717.20270.0.20824.70.64.5.0.0.0.565.5617.55j6j5-1.62.0.tshc.1.0.0.5gZTzYFEoPc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=72e94fd8b9c26ce4&biw=1867&bih=1015
Edit: difficulties getting a good link.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2012, 08:30:49 AM
By comparison of tax dollars spent on directly employing government workers in Tulsa vs. the tax breaks the the Warren Foundation gets and the number of jobs created by each, the Warren Foundation ends up putting more money back in the economy and costs the tax payers far less.
That's just plain incorrect. The City of Tulsa through infrastructure maintenance, economic development, capital improvements, services, and security creates much more commerce than a 5013c that uses it's religulous tax preferences to gouge the rest of us and also to avoid their civic responsibility. The Warren Foundation does many good things. Yet, they also feed off the tax payer in the form of corporate welfare. Monteraux is a retirement village composed of many ethnic and religious citizens. They have restaurants and bars and services that compete with profit oriented assisted living communities and capitalistic enterprises. Why should they get an unfair competitive advantage? After all, their infrastructure was paid for not only by their clients but by their competitors as well. Was the tax code provision for 5013c's designed for this socialistic purpose? Should they force all their clients to attend mass to comply with the law? If this were in the downtown, you all would be insisting that the retirement communities owned by the Baptists or the Episcopalians need to help with the ball park. Fact of the matter, downtown could use some wise old citizens but it's hard competing with the suburbs. And one more thing, do you think the ad valorem tax bill would be borne by the owners or passed through to the occupants?
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 20, 2012, 11:06:53 AM
Interesting article about public education and land grants.
I can't make the link directly bring up the article but Google
"Public Schools and the Original Federal Land Grant Program" and look at the pdf by the Center on Education Policy. It should show up first on the list.
This link should get you to the link to the article.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=public+schools+and+the+original+federal+land+grant+program&oq=public+schools+and+the+original+federal+land+grant+program&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_l=hp.3...717.20270.0.20824.70.64.5.0.0.0.565.5617.55j6j5-1.62.0.tshc.1.0.0.5gZTzYFEoPc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=72e94fd8b9c26ce4&biw=1867&bih=1015
Edit: difficulties getting a good link.
Thanks. Mostly pdf form so I'll download them and read later. Looks like one was the Center on Education Policy that accumulated some of the current thinking. Have to be careful of those publications who have dedicated themselves to rewriting, re-interpreting and just plain misrepresenting history.
I learned of communities using the dedication of land for education purposes in a college level real estate class, then later when obtaining my real estate license. The land was then used to fund the systems.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2012, 01:19:59 PM
Looks like one was the Center on Education Policy that accumulated some of the current thinking. Have to be careful of those publications who have dedicated themselves to rewriting, re-interpreting and just plain misrepresenting history.
They appeared to document the article with legitimate looking references. I don't personally know anything about the CEP. I would certainly look closely at anything involving editorial content.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2012, 08:16:05 AM
Ridiculous. In fact I had presumed you to be a lot smarter than those remarks imply. In the future everyone will have their own 501-3c's. We can all live on our own islands and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. Just like you.
I'm about to conclude that this forum isn't nearly as erudite and insightful as I thought. Lots of fools who don't mind parroting other peoples extreme views from extreme organizations with very few pragmatics. Oh, well. Maybe that's just what Tulsa is.
You should be more concerned about your disrespectful and damnable tone waterboy. I, as do many many others out there, do PLENTY to make life livable for everyone far beyond what they pay in taxes--which is far more than you. And get over your damned self and how "erudite" you think you are. Unless someone appointed you "president of the internet" and can thus boycott posters, there are people out there that, gulp, who may disagree with you.
EDITED: In thinking about this I have concluded that I am just done with whatever "beyond tax" contributions to make this town and state better. I am not even from here originally, yet it's my home and I wanted nothing more than my neighbors to be better off--even at my own personal expense. Not any more. Helping others--which is what it's supposed to be about and NOT how such makes the donor feel--is now lost to me. Maybe waterboy's insight can make up the difference.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2012, 09:41:56 AM
This is the crux of your failure.
Why do you think that when our founders laid out our country that they insisted on having a certain amount of land (60 acres I believe) set aside for each township that was dedicated to education? That land was for educating children and the cost of that land was spread out over the entire population, those with and without children.
So, no, it wasn't over the course of history, it was at the beginning of our history.
I'll go back to our constitution and find where the right to education paid for by your neighbor is found.
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 06:20:26 PM
I'll go back to our constitution and find where the right to education paid for by your neighbor is found.
You do that. It'l keep you busy and off of here for awhile. Then note that we've been doing it for over 150 years or so.
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 06:18:57 PM
You should be more concerned about your disrespectful and damnable tone waterboy. I, as do many many others out there, do PLENTY to make life livable for everyone far beyond what they pay in taxes--which is far more than you. And get over your damned self and how "erudite" you think you are. Unless someone appointed you "president of the internet" and can thus boycott posters, there are people out there that, gulp, who may disagree with you.
EDITED: In thinking about this I have concluded that I am just done with whatever "beyond tax" contributions to make this town and state better. I am not even from here originally, yet it's my home and I wanted nothing more than my neighbors to be better off--even at my own personal expense. Not any more. Helping others--which is what it's supposed to be about and NOT how such makes the donor feel--is now lost to me. Maybe waterboy's insight can make up the difference.
Me, erudite? You so funny. And so sensitive. Doesn't feel so good when you're on the barb does it?
If you feel it necessary to take your ball and go home cause the rules don't suit you, then don't blame it on me. Be a man and move to one of Sauer's favorite states where you can enjoy your money and bathe in your noblesse oblige without anyone questioning your beliefs.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2012, 07:32:42 PM
Me, erudite? You so funny. And so sensitive. Doesn't feel so good when you're on the barb does it?
If you feel it necessary to take your ball and go home cause the rules don't suit you, then don't blame it on me. Be a man and move to one of Sauer's favorite states where you can enjoy your money and bathe in your noblesse oblige without anyone questioning your beliefs.
Blame you for keeping my money? Nope. Those is need can blame you if they choose.
As for taking time out? I have before. But each time I returned I managed to be man enough to retain my same forum name. How about you?
As for 150 years ago, what happened in 1872 (or so) that created the mentality that our neighbors are required to pay for one another's education?
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 07:44:32 PM
Blame you for keeping my money? Nope. Those is need can blame you if they choose.
As for taking time out? I have before. But each time I returned I managed to be man enough to retain my same forum name. How about you?
As for 150 years ago, what happened in 1872 (or so) that created the mentality that our neighbors are required to pay for one another's education?
You need to read the link I posted. It talks about the need for common education in the new (after the 13 original colonies) states including the need to learn English.
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 07:44:32 PM
Blame you for keeping my money? Nope. Those is need can blame you if they choose.
As for taking time out? I have before. But each time I returned I managed to be man enough to retain my same forum name. How about you?
As for 150 years ago, what happened in 1872 (or so) that created the mentality that our neighbors are required to pay for one another's education?
You are so losing this battle. Yet, I couldn't care less.
Please, tell all your charities that you would like to continue to help but someone questioned you on a forum and you just can't do it anymore. That's class? Really, Gueed, I know people with lots more money than you who give lots more of their time and wealth and hardly mention it. That's real class.
Time out? You inferred that you weren't from here and might just move on. I changed my name but everyone knew it. I took time off, collected my self and returned when I had this forum in some clear perspective. I also thought it was better to be referred to as a man (aquaman) rather than a boy (waterboy). Even so, I always introduce myself with all my names when visiting TN functions (you know, the ones you never go to). So sue me.
150 years ago would have been in the 1860's. If you had bothered to read any of the links you would have seen an act that created federal land grants for universities at that time. Communities had already been granting land for public schools before then. But why bother? It doesn't fit your scheme.
Its been fun, but this thread is going nowhere fast.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2012, 08:23:07 PM
Yet, I couldn't care less.
Ding, Ding, Ding......
Someone who finally used the correct statement that they 'couldn't care less" rather than the more common "could care less".
THANK YOU.
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 07:44:32 PM
As for 150 years ago, what happened in 1872 (or so) that created the mentality that our neighbors are required to pay for one another's education?
I have to post this Thurow quote again? Gweedoe, some of us changed our monikers because we were thrown off while you were allowed to continue on in your bully manner. We found our way in the backdoor which meant choosing new identities. You made me do it...
Quote"Social welfare programs may be a matter of ethics and generosity, but education and training are not. I am willing to pay for, indeed insist upon, the education of my neighbor'e children, not because I am generous but because I cannot afford to live with them uneducated." Lester C. Thurow MIT
Please don't go away until after November. We will hand you your exit.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 20, 2012, 08:11:31 PM
You need to read the link I posted. It talks about the need for common education in the new (after the 13 original colonies) states including the need to learn English.
I read the article Red, but my take from it was more about finance than need--although both is very important. I am tired of listening to people b!tch about how public education should be paid for. I look out my front door twice a day and see my tax-funded limo service dropping off and picking up public school kids at 1 block intervals while I drive my kids to a school which I pay for since I am unconvinced that public ed measures up.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 20, 2012, 08:43:03 PM
I have to post this Thurow quote again? Gweedoe, some of us changed our monikers because we were thrown off while you were allowed to continue on in your bully manner. We found our way in the backdoor which meant choosing new identities. You made me do it...
Please don't go away until after November. We will hand you your exit.
Using the backdoor aox?
I just love getting the revenue side discussion of paying for making Tulsa a great city out into the open. I am often amazed the same people who want less government fail to look for lost money that belongs to all the citizens. You find it a lost cause to address the issue of tax avoidance and it's adverse effects? Just because their personal financial situation dictates their logic and altruistic ways does not mean the rest of us shouldn't discuss what Ken Yazell proposes.
Back door man.
Gotta go....time for Mad Men :D I like the show more than reading your mean man trash talk... Arteest the Dreamer, how about some senior living downtown?
I thought it interesting that in one of the articles about the Land Grants and the Northwest Ordinance, there was concern from the Founding Fathers that states might adopt a different form of government, or non-democratic forms of government, and were also concerned that different states might adopt different languages. So if you want to argue that there isn't anything in the Constitution requiring publicly funded education, one must then allow that there also isn't anything in the Constitution saying that a state has to have a democratic form of government or have English as its primary language?
Quote from: TheArtist on May 20, 2012, 08:52:24 PM
I thought it interesting that in one of the articles about the Land Grants and the Northwest Ordinance, there was concern from the Founding Fathers that states might adopt a different form of government, or non-democratic forms of government, and were also concerned that different states might adopt different languages. So if you want to argue that there isn't anything in the Constitution requiring publicly funded education, one must then allow that there also isn't anything in the Constitution saying that a state has to have a democratic form of government or have English as its primary language?
Well there is always the Supremacy clause to stamp out dictatorships I guess. :) Interesting take though, and I'll think more about it.
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 08:50:53 PM
I read the article Red, but my take from it was more about finance than need--although both is very important. I am tired of listening to people b!tch about how public education should be paid for. I look out my front door twice a day and see my tax-funded limo service dropping off and picking up public school kids at 1 block intervals while I drive my kids to a school which I pay for since I am unconvinced that public ed measures up.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think public education is a lot less expensive than public ignorance (which leads to people becoming Democrats ;D). The public school system needs to be fixed, not abandoned. If you choose to send your kids to private school, OK. You will still be better off in the long run if you support public education.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 20, 2012, 09:09:28 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think public education is a lot less expensive than public ignorance (which leads to people becoming Democrats ;D). The public school system needs to be fixed, not abandoned. If you choose to send your kids to private school, OK. You will still be better off in the long run if you support public education.
As I wrote at first, I think all children need a chance. I have always been a child first person and that is well documented in here. My beef is at those bitching about how its paid for and how they feel some folks are getting over. Seriously Red, I have answered the questions as to what's the point of going beyond what one kicks in as taxes? That's all.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 20, 2012, 09:09:28 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.
And by the way, it's speaks volumes that two posters in this forum that are relatively close ideologically can disagree on something like this. And we have in the past as well. How about the other side? I mean, other than RM and the 2008 election stuff. :D I keed I keed.
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 09:27:47 PM
And by the way, it's speaks volumes that two posters in this forum that are relatively close ideologically can disagree on something like this. And we have in the past as well. How about the other side? I mean, other than RM and the 2008 election stuff. :D I keed I keed.
The other side? We're all on different sides? Different views but all still on the same team.
Anyway, not uncommon at all. Check back to the thread about making Sudafed by prescription only. I generally like Nathan's views but we viscerally disagreed on that one as well as some funding issues. Perhaps you're skipping over threads.
Red. It bothers me too when I hear that phrase misused. I actually went back and corrected it before posting. Its the little things in life.....
Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2012, 09:43:05 PM
Red. It bothers me too when I hear that phrase misused. I actually went back and corrected it before posting. Its the little things in life.....
Paying attention to details has generally served me well as an engineer.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 20, 2012, 10:38:41 PM
Paying attention to details has generally served me well as an engineer.
What is it with engineers being too literal to understand sarcasm? ;)
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 20, 2012, 11:30:39 AM
That's just plain incorrect. The City of Tulsa through infrastructure maintenance, economic development, capital improvements, services, and security creates much more commerce than a 5013c that uses it's religulous tax preferences to gouge the rest of us and also to avoid their civic responsibility. The Warren Foundation does many good things. Yet, they also feed off the tax payer in the form of corporate welfare. Monteraux is a retirement village composed of many ethnic and religious citizens. They have restaurants and bars and services that compete with profit oriented assisted living communities and capitalistic enterprises. Why should they get an unfair competitive advantage? After all, their infrastructure was paid for not only by their clients but by their competitors as well. Was the tax code provision for 5013c's designed for this socialistic purpose? Should they force all their clients to attend mass to comply with the law? If this were in the downtown, you all would be insisting that the retirement communities owned by the Baptists or the Episcopalians need to help with the ball park. Fact of the matter, downtown could use some wise old citizens but it's hard competing with the suburbs. And one more thing, do you think the ad valorem tax bill would be borne by the owners or passed through to the occupants?
Look, I agree, Montreaux is really testing the boundaries of tax exemption for the Warren Foundation and I understand the burr under your saddle. The Channels would have presented a similar quandary if they would have held out for a property tax exemption. However, there's absolutely not even a chance in Hell that the city and/or county of Tulsa put as much back into local commerce with LESS $$ subsidy from tax payers than the tax exemptions granted to the WF. No freaking way.
The WF might get, what, 10 to 15mm a year in property tax breaks if that. How much to the city and county governments take in again via property tax, sales tax, etc?
Keep in mind the WF's various enterprises also serve to collect sales tax on site.
I suspect overall, the WF contributes far more to the local economy and tax base than you realize.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2012, 11:24:14 PM
there's absolutely not even a chance in Hell that the city and/or county of Tulsa put as much back into local commerce with LESS $$ subsidy from tax payers than the tax exemptions granted to the WF.
Sorry, I lost you here. I don't mean to minimize the picture here with your divergence from the original issue... the citizenry is getting less reimbursement than the 5013c gets in discounts? Sorry, I just don't think that was the discussion I initiated.
Do you really think our tax code was designed to allow churches to make tax free money on retirement villages? They're glorified apartments for god's sake.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2012, 11:24:14 PM
I suspect overall, the WF contributes far more to the local economy and tax base than you realize.
You have hit on precisely my point in all of this. It's all about taxes paid, or that the rich are bending over the system, and nothing else. This is why people who do give from the heart should start telling those bitching to get bent. I'm curious, how many people in the middle to upper class are out there bitching that people who earn more than them aren't paying enough in taxes? I honestly cannot even remember (well, until now of course), much less whine about, how much the two surgeons across the street from me earn or paid in taxes, same goes for the retirees next door, etc. I seriously do not care what waterboy or anyone else earns or pays.
Now, to the subject, before assuming that Montereau is getting over, has anyone here read the pleadings on file in the court action first? Or, did we just once again haul off and pretend we know the law more than those arguing it. Here's a link to the docket. I'll let the learned @ssclown interpret.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2524150&db=Tulsa
I are a graduate of public schooling.
I want my neighbor's kids smart as they can be. Then they will understand the big words I yell at their dogs for barking all night.
I think all of you need to see this one hour film: http://video.pbs.org/video/2236099589
"one example of how scholarship programs have been twisted to benefit private schools at the expense of the neediest children."
Public Money Finds Back Door to Private Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/education/scholarship-funds-meant-for-needy-benefit-private-schools.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120522
"the money will be channeled to the family that raised it."
"While the scholarship programs have helped many children whose parents would have to scrimp or work several jobs to send them to private schools, the money has also been used to attract star football players, expand the payrolls of the nonprofit scholarship groups and spread the theology of creationism, interviews and documents show. "
"Most of the private schools are religious. Nearly a quarter of the participating schools in Georgia require families to make a profession of religious faith, according to their Web sites. Many of those schools adhere to a fundamentalist brand of Christianity. A commonly used sixth-grade science text retells the creation story contained in Genesis, omitting any other explanation. An economics book used in some high schools holds that the Antichrist — a world ruler predicted in the New Testament — will one day control what is bought and sold."
"The programs are insulated from provisions requiring church-state separation because the donations are collected and distributed by the nonprofit scholarship groups."
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/582384_413932811971320_174612345903369_1228527_1336281400_n.jpg)
Quote from: nathanm on May 20, 2012, 10:52:24 PM
What is it with engineers being too literal to understand sarcasm? ;)
Probably because so many got a good dose of Asperger Syndrome (on the autism scale).
Quote from: nathanm on May 21, 2012, 01:20:48 PM
I think all of you need to see this one hour film: http://video.pbs.org/video/2236099589
Looks good - for the few minutes I have listened so far. Will look later.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 22, 2012, 04:01:59 PM
Looks good - for the few minutes I have listened so far. Will look later.
I think it's funny that Arizonans apparently don't want their kids to be engaged socially and politically. I suspect they aren't the only ones who are afraid that an informed and engaged populace will put a stop to the lobbyist gravy train.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 22, 2012, 12:44:20 PM
"one example of how scholarship programs have been twisted to benefit private schools at the expense of the neediest children."
Public Money Finds Back Door to Private Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/education/scholarship-funds-meant-for-needy-benefit-private-schools.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120522
"the money will be channeled to the family that raised it."
"While the scholarship programs have helped many children whose parents would have to scrimp or work several jobs to send them to private schools, the money has also been used to attract star football players, expand the payrolls of the nonprofit scholarship groups and spread the theology of creationism, interviews and documents show. "
"Most of the private schools are religious. Nearly a quarter of the participating schools in Georgia require families to make a profession of religious faith, according to their Web sites. Many of those schools adhere to a fundamentalist brand of Christianity. A commonly used sixth-grade science text retells the creation story contained in Genesis, omitting any other explanation. An economics book used in some high schools holds that the Antichrist — a world ruler predicted in the New Testament — will one day control what is bought and sold."
"The programs are insulated from provisions requiring church-state separation because the donations are collected and distributed by the nonprofit scholarship groups."
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/582384_413932811971320_174612345903369_1228527_1336281400_n.jpg)
I got no problem with a bit of my tax dollars working its way into private schools. Folks don't like religious "indoctrination", well I don't like this indoctrination:
or this...
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2012, 06:20:26 PM
I'll go back to our constitution and find where the right to education paid for by your neighbor is found.
Same place where it details taxation, libraries, parks, roads, police, fire, whatnot, and etc
Quote from: BKDotCom on May 22, 2012, 06:21:49 PM
Same place where it details taxation, libraries, parks, roads, police, fire, whatnot, and etc
Now your talking-except that we are talking really about state rights/power and not federal constitutional stuff. This was sort of my point. It becomes a federal problem when folks start bitching about public money (translation: taxes paid by people) and if religion is implicated. With the
Lemon test perhaps losing favor, maybe our courts will finally stick a dagger into this "separation of church" meme and adopt a simpler and more reasonable approach to address this "conflict".
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 22, 2012, 03:56:45 PM
Probably because so many got a good dose of Asperger Syndrome (on the autism scale).
(Try to) Speak for yourself.
Quote from: guido911 on May 22, 2012, 06:19:09 PM
I got no problem with a bit of my tax dollars working its way into private schools. Folks don't like religious "indoctrination", well I don't like this indoctrination:
or this...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/578109_10151016591823465_129446698464_12236090_1800513610_n.jpg)
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 22, 2012, 07:13:14 PM
(Try to) Speak for yourself.
Sore spot? See a little in yourself? Turns out the most talented engineers and technical people are blessed in that way at least a little bit.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 22, 2012, 08:37:55 PM
Sore spot? See a little in yourself? Turns out the most talented engineers and technical people are blessed in that way at least a little bit.
No sore spot beyond you thinking that you speak for all, or even most, engineers.
There's a difference between "a little bit" and "a good dose of".
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 22, 2012, 08:58:33 PM
No sore spot beyond you thinking that you speak for all, or even most, engineers.
There's a difference between "a little bit" and "a good dose of".
That's why they call it a 'spectrum' - wide range.
Oh man, you guys should see me when I get to rocking. ;)
Saw Yazel had it handed to him up at the Supremes recently.