The Government Accountability Office has just released a surprising and and encouraging report about the possibility to US energy independence. http://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/hearings/HHRG-112-%20SY20-WState-AMittal-20120510.pdf
(http://www.ices.utah.edu/assets/images/map/green_river_map.png)
The Green River Formation, a largely vacant area of mostly federal land that covers the territory where Colorado, Utah and Wyoming come together, contains about as much recoverable oil as all the rest the world's proven reserves combined! The total of this deposit lies under mostly federally owned land. The GAO stated that the biggest challenge to implementation and recovery of these resources is the impact on local infrastructure and growth for local communities based on the massive number of jobs that would be required.
"USGS estimates that the Green River Formation contains about 3 trillion barrels of oil, and about half of this may be recoverable, depending on available technology and economic conditions." Anu K. Mittal, Director of Natural Resources for the GAO testified before Congress on the 10th. "At the midpoint of this estimate, almost half of the 3 trillion barrels of oil would be recoverable. This is an amount about equal to the entire world's proven oil reserves."
With this testimony in the lap of the administration, I am confident they will clear the way for energy companies to gain access to this precious domestic resource and create hundreds of thousands of jobs! Right?
Quote from: Gaspar on May 14, 2012, 10:58:02 AM
With this testimony in the lap of the administration, I am confident they will clear the way for energy companies to gain access to this precious domestic resource and create hundreds of thousands of jobs! Right?
Surely it's as easy as that.
"Look! There it is! Hire all those people and have them get some buckets. We'll be in the oil bidness and all is saved."
Quote from: Gaspar on May 14, 2012, 10:58:02 AM
With this testimony in the lap of the administration, I am confident they will clear the way for energy companies to gain access to this precious domestic resource and create hundreds of thousands of jobs! Right?
Well I hope that they aren't as quick to yell Eureka! as you are.
You neglected to mention that this would require unconventional methods of extraction as was even pointed out in the headline. Curious that. You also pointed out all the tremendous up-side and failed to mention the "challenges" to exploitation that were mentioned in the sub-head. Things like long lasting pollution, destruction of huge amounts of topsoil (hey, we're not using it anyway?!) and the creating of oil boom towns. Nor did you mention the opportunity cost of going after long known about oil shale rather than joining the rest of the world in developing other sources of energy.
Its like you had a certain pre-disposition, an axe to grind or something....
Quote from: AquaMan on May 14, 2012, 11:23:53 AM
Well I hope that they aren't as quick to yell Eureka! as you are.
You neglected to mention that this would require unconventional methods of extraction as was even pointed out in the headline. Curious that. You also pointed out all the tremendous up-side and failed to mention the "challenges" to exploitation that were mentioned in the sub-head. Things like long lasting pollution, destruction of huge amounts of topsoil (hey, we're not using it anyway?!) and the creating of oil boom towns. Nor did you mention the opportunity cost of going after long known about oil shale rather than joining the rest of the world in developing other sources of energy.
Its like you had a certain pre-disposition, an axe to grind or something....
Sorry, I just saw the optimistic side of things. I'm sure that if we invested just half of what we speculated on bankrupt solar companies in the last 3 years, we could overcome all of the challenges.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 14, 2012, 11:23:53 AM
Well I hope that they aren't as quick to yell Eureka! as you are.
You neglected to mention that this would require unconventional methods of extraction as was even pointed out in the headline. Curious that. You also pointed out all the tremendous up-side and failed to mention the "challenges" to exploitation that were mentioned in the sub-head. Things like long lasting pollution, destruction of huge amounts of topsoil (hey, we're not using it anyway?!) and the creating of oil boom towns. Nor did you mention the opportunity cost of going after long known about oil shale rather than joining the rest of the world in developing other sources of energy.
Its like you had a certain pre-disposition, an axe to grind or something....
Well thanks a pant load, Mr. Buzzkill! ;D
Nonsense. "other" sources of energy are not exclusively solar. Its good to be optimistic, its quite another to ignore the costs you pay when considering something like mining shale oil reserves on public lands.
Remember, they put blinders on horses because they're so stupid they will be spooked by every movement around them, not because they want them to be optimistic.
Conan, this is not hot off the press news. Shale deposits and oil sands are found all over the world. The process of mining them and permanently affecting the environment is surely worth discussion don't you think? BTW, consider depends. ;)
Quote from: AquaMan on May 14, 2012, 12:42:38 PM
Nonsense. "other" sources of energy are not exclusively solar. Its good to be optimistic, its quite another to ignore the costs you pay when considering something like mining shale oil reserves on public lands.
Remember, they put blinders on horses because they're so stupid they will be spooked by every movement around them, not because they want them to be optimistic.
Conan, this is not hot off the press news. Shale deposits and oil sands are found all over the world. The process of mining them and permanently affecting the environment is surely worth discussion don't you think? BTW, consider depends. ;)
What's the latest in nursing home fashions these days? Depends.
Sorry guys, I just thought with all the bad news about the economy and energy prices, a little good news from our government on the promise of energy independence would be welcome.
I mean, it's no Chevy Volt, but it does represent a significant chip in the international game of energy speculation. Imagine what might happen to oil prices if we were to begin to move on this discovery?
Probably nothing.
You would think it would be hailed as good news around these parts considering if it weren't for the erl bidness, Oklahoma would be one of the poorest states in the nation these days. A lot of people don't recognize the hand that's feeding them.
Face it, you could give these guys each a check for $1 million and they'd complain about the color of the checks.
I doubt the oilmen here and in Houston would leave these hell holes for those. And as an aside, don't ever remember seeing a happy oil man! Sumpin' always piss'n em off.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 14, 2012, 01:19:35 PM
I doubt the oilmen here and in Houston would leave these hell holes for those. And as an aside, don't ever remember seeing a happy oil man! Sumpin' always piss'n em off.
What kind of frontier gibberish is that?
Quote from: Gaspar on May 14, 2012, 11:27:37 AM
Sorry, I just saw the optimistic side of things. I'm sure that if we invested just half of what we speculated on bankrupt solar companies in the last 3 years, we could overcome all of the challenges.
We should have thrown a sh!t load more at solar....the Chinese threw 80 billion and we threw only 2 billion....hard to compete with those numbers.
They're starting to drill wildcats in Wyoming....based on good geology.
Pretty much every country that has ever flourished has its own natural resources to thank for it. Exploiting those resources are what created true wealth. Only after China exploited their resources are they now able to spend all this money to research alternative energy.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 14, 2012, 01:10:35 PM
Sorry guys, I just thought with all the bad news about the economy and energy prices, a little good news from our government on the promise of energy independence would be welcome.
You're late to the party my friend. Economic indicators are looking relatively good given the uncertainty surrounding Europe and energy prices are declining. (thank China for that) How long would it take to bring this field online? It usually takes more than 5 years to get significant production, does it not? Seems to me like we'd be better off continuing to wean ourselves off oil as much as possible and save it for making plastics and fertilizer after everybody else's oil runs out.
Why on Earth would you want to use our oil up first?
Quote from: erfalf on May 14, 2012, 01:36:19 PM
Pretty much every country that has ever flourished has its own natural resources to thank for it. Exploiting those resources are what created true wealth. Only after China exploited their resources are they now able to spend all this money to research alternative energy.
They also exploited, and continue to exploit their people. Humans are just resources to them too.
Quote from: nathanm on May 14, 2012, 02:10:26 PM
Why on Earth would you want to use our oil up first?
Winner!
Quote from: Gaspar on May 14, 2012, 02:13:01 PM
Humans are just resources to them too.
No different than most US companies. We (theoretically) have some laws to help that out, though.
Quote from: nathanm on May 14, 2012, 02:10:26 PM
You're late to the party my friend. Economic indicators are looking relatively good given the uncertainty surrounding Europe and energy prices are declining. (thank China for that) How long would it take to bring this field online? It usually takes more than 5 years to get significant production, does it not? Seems to me like we'd be better off continuing to wean ourselves off oil as much as possible and save it for making plastics and fertilizer after everybody else's oil runs out.
Why on Earth would you want to use our oil up first?
We need to quit using this excuse one presidential administration after another. Unfortunately, there's still no real alternative other than modern versions of farm programs. Get government to quit treating alternative energy like a farm subsidy program and we might be on track to real energy diversity.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 14, 2012, 02:45:05 PM
Get government to quit treating alternative energy like a farm subsidy program and we might be on track to real energy diversity.
Wait, what? Solar manufacturers get paid by the US government for each panel they produce? I don't think so. They do get loans, but as I recall ethanol is the only "alternative" energy source getting per-unit subsidies.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 14, 2012, 01:20:53 PM
What kind of frontier gibberish is that?
Part of it is referring to a rumor as to why certain oil companies left Tulsa for big city, glitzy Houston, only to find out it is ....Houston. The other part was just idle observation. I truly have never met an oil company employee who isn't pissing and moaning about how badly they are treated and how thankful we should be to them.
What is frontier gibberish?
Quote from: AquaMan on May 14, 2012, 05:48:00 PM
Part of it is referring to a rumor as to why certain oil companies left Tulsa for big city, glitzy Houston, only to find out it is ....Houston. The other part was just idle observation. I truly have never met an oil company employee who isn't pissing and moaning about how badly they are treated and how thankful we should be to them.
What is frontier gibberish?
Yeah, I found that out in 1991 when I moved to Houston from Tulsa. Kinda neat for about two months, then the traffic, lack of zoning (back then there was none, so city street corridors could have 50 story high-rises and many still do). Oh, and traffic.
Did I mention traffic?
:D
Quote from: Gaspar on May 14, 2012, 11:27:37 AM
Sorry, I just saw the optimistic side of things. I'm sure that if we invested just half of what we speculated on bankrupt solar companies in the last 3 years, we could overcome all of the challenges.
We've "invested" dozens of times that amount in oil in the last 3 years. Where you been hiding??
Quote from: erfalf on May 14, 2012, 01:36:19 PM
Pretty much every country that has ever flourished has its own natural resources to thank for it. Exploiting those resources are what created true wealth. Only after China exploited their resources are they now able to spend all this money to research alternative energy.
What??? Where did you study history?? The entire history of successful civilizations has been about the colonial efforts of those civilizations - going to other peoples homes, killing many, enslaving more, and taking all the good stuff they had!!
Did you not watch the movie "Avatar"? It is a short world history program....
Quote from: AquaMan on May 14, 2012, 05:48:00 PM
What is frontier gibberish?
See "Blazing Saddles".
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 14, 2012, 09:10:16 PM
We've "invested" dozens of times that amount in oil in the last 3 years. Where you been hiding??
Got a link to prove that spurious comment?
Quote from: Conan71 on May 14, 2012, 09:19:28 PM
Got a link to prove that spurious comment?
Not spurious. Gospel.
Intangible drilling costs - seems like most of that would be stuff that any other industry would have to recover over the life of the investment, rather than expensing.
Percentage depletion allowance - get the deduction, even if more than the total well value.
Passive investments - different from most - to the benefit of the company.
But then, there is always this....
http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-05-04/top-5-myths-about-subsidies-oil-companies
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 14, 2012, 09:38:13 PM
Not spurious. Gospel.
Intangible drilling costs - seems like most of that would be stuff that any other industry would have to recover over the life of the investment, rather than expensing.
Percentage depletion allowance - get the deduction, even if more than the total well value.
Passive investments - different from most - to the benefit of the company.
But then, there is always this....
http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-05-04/top-5-myths-about-subsidies-oil-companies
Substituting op-ed for fact. Check.
I think it's funny how spending in the tax code is considered a subsidy when it benefits certain groups, but when it benefits certain other groups they're just normal business expense deductions (that nobody else happens to get). It's like people just don't believe that companies are smart enough not to spend more on lobbying than they get in return. Or they think people who report on the various custom-made loopholes for billion dollar corporations are lying or something.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 14, 2012, 09:42:20 PM
Substituting op-ed for fact. Check.
You are absolutely right...that little op-ed was some propaganda - anti-propaganda to the oil industry distortions put out to scare and intimidate people into just shutting up and sitting down so they can go about their business without "unwarranted government intrusion" - like any kind of regulation.
The first three things, which were so quickly jumped over are just some of the benefits that big oil gets that other industries don't. Want to address them? One of my favorites is the intangible drilling costs...fun with accounting!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 17, 2012, 04:11:48 PM
You are absolutely right...that little op-ed was some propaganda - anti-propaganda to the oil industry distortions put out to scare and intimidate people into just shutting up and sitting down so they can go about their business without "unwarranted government intrusion" - like any kind of regulation.
The first three things, which were so quickly jumped over are just some of the benefits that big oil gets that other industries don't. Want to address them? One of my favorites is the intangible drilling costs...fun with accounting!
There's intangible costs to just about every industrial process. The only way to avoid it is return to the stone ages. Get your old road bike out and start becoming part of the solution again ;)
Quote from: Conan71 on May 17, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
There's intangible costs to just about every industrial process. The only way to avoid it is return to the stone ages. Get your old road bike out and start becoming part of the solution again ;)
That's not the kind of intangibles we are talking about here. Different thing altogether - it is as if you could buy a large piece of capital equipment, and then just expense it all at once. Given the past/present/future value of money analyses, which would you rather do? Expense something now, or amortize over 20 or 30 years??
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 17, 2012, 04:24:11 PM
which would you rather do? Expense something now, or amortize over 20 or 30 years??
Depends on the rest of the tax bill. If it's been an unprofitable year, better to take regular depreciation. If there's a tax bill to offset, better to take it now. ;)
Quote from: nathanm on May 17, 2012, 04:29:57 PM
Depends on the rest of the tax bill. If it's been an unprofitable year, better to take regular depreciation. If there's a tax bill to offset, better to take it now. ;)
And when has big oil had a "bad year"?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 17, 2012, 04:24:11 PM
That's not the kind of intangibles we are talking about here. Different thing altogether - it is as if you could buy a large piece of capital equipment, and then just expense it all at once. Given the past/present/future value of money analyses, which would you rather do? Expense something now, or amortize over 20 or 30 years??
Depends on the rate of depreciation, and economic outlook. In many cases it can be like 'money in the bank' and in other cases you want to take as much out of play as possible.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 17, 2012, 04:32:06 PM
About 30 years ago.
Not the "7 Sisters"...it was just the small operators that took it in the shorts. Exxon, Texaco, etc still did very well.