....of Houston.... http://www.eecoc.org/
Dynamo break ground on new stadium
Saturday, February 05, 2011
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/video?id=7941132&pid=7941237
Take a walk through the Dynamo's new stadium
BBVA Compass is the latest shining jewel among the city's sports facilities
Chronicle
Updated 12:55 p.m., Wednesday, April 11, 2012
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Dynamo-stadium-walk-through-3474063.php#photo-2801063
http://bbvacompassstadium.com/
(http://wvhooligan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/bbvacompas-stadium.jpg)
Ruff....quit with the wild imagery....420 done come and gone. ;D
That is a really ugly stadium.
I would prefer it be somewhere else like on or by the OSU Tulsa campus. The east end has the potential to be an extension of downtowns urban core and more of an urban neighborhood type area. Putting an arena in this already small area would pretty much gut the core of that potential, and on top of that you know danged well they would put in a dozen huge parking garages instead of transit, which would further eat into any potential for real urban density in the area.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 26, 2012, 07:08:40 AM
I would prefer it be somewhere else like on or by the OSU Tulsa campus. The east end has the potential to be an extension of downtowns urban core and more of an urban neighborhood type area. Putting an arena in this already small area would pretty much gut the core of that potential, and on top of that you know danged well they would put in a dozen huge parking garages instead of transit, which would further eat into any potential for real urban density in the area.
Agreed.
Quote from: Weatherdemon on April 26, 2012, 09:43:44 AM
Agreed.
Not agreed.
Apart from the precious few decently rehabbed buildings around 3rd St, the "East end/East village" area south of that is an eye-sore. There is no "micro-hood" to refurbish... I just don't see residential there. Besides, if there is any place to concentrate on quality residential development, IMHO, it'd be on the other side of the IDL in the "Pearl District." Bing Thom told us the IDL is "a noose," n'est-ce pas? I think any ideas of new construction condo buildings in that area or rehabs of the not-historically significant Bill White/Nordham? buildings/lots is a money losing pipedream that creates a false narrative for a sparse area that seems lost in it's own decades-long time/space continuum....
Not that there'd be much chance for a sports stadium to be built in the near future, but any stadium/sports facility at the Evans fintube site would preclude fans from walking to the sites around Brady/Blue Dome. I'd argue that part of the success of the new ballpark is it's walkable proximity to food/drink/entertainment options before and after the games...
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on April 29, 2012, 05:42:46 AM
Not agreed.
Apart from the precious few decently rehabbed buildings around 3rd St, the "East end/East village" area south of that is an eye-sore. There is no "micro-hood" to refurbish... I just don't see residential there. Besides, if there is any place to concentrate on quality residential development, IMHO, it'd be on the other side of the IDL in the "Pearl District." Bing Thom told us the IDL is "a noose," n'est-ce pas? I think any ideas of new construction condo buildings in that area or rehabs of the not-historically significant Bill White/Nordham? buildings/lots is a money losing pipedream that creates a false narrative for a sparse area that seems lost in it's own decades-long time/space continuum....
Not that there'd be much chance for a sports stadium to be built in the near future, but any stadium/sports facility at the Evans fintube site would preclude fans from walking to the sites around Brady/Blue Dome. I'd argue that part of the success of the new ballpark is it's walkable proximity to food/drink/entertainment options before and after the games...
Two years from now the East End will look very different. There's really no room for a stadium already.
Quote from: swake on April 29, 2012, 12:24:18 PM
Two years from now the East End will look very different. There's really no room for a stadium already.
Ruff is like a government agency. He won't be happy until we're not happy.
;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on April 29, 2012, 12:36:46 PM
Ruff is like a government agency. He won't be happy until we're not happy.
;D
Hardly. You jerk.
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/lawmakers-target-historic-tax-credit-programs
I just get tired of a TulsaNow mentality that enjoys making the perfect the enemy of the good.
I'll believe it when I see it.... and the buildings in question that I see on that side of town hardly qualify as "historic."
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on April 29, 2012, 08:54:06 PM
Hardly. You jerk.
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/lawmakers-target-historic-tax-credit-programs
I just get tired of a TulsaNow mentality that enjoys making the perfect the enemy of the good.
I'll believe it when I see it.... and the buildings in question that I see on that side of town hardly qualify as "historic."
Did you ignore the smiley?
However, I disagree with putting up "good enough." Yeah, I'd rather just wait til perfect comes around instead of putting up something that's just better than what's there now.
Quote from: ZYX on April 29, 2012, 10:08:44 PM
Did you ignore the smiley?
I actually expected Ruff to ignore the smiley. He may be correct in my opinion of him. If he thinks I am a jerk, I consider it a compliment.
I wasn't thinking about old buildings in that area. What I am looking at is how quickly the Brady Arts District began filling up. Most of the spots there are now spoken for and under construction. There is also a lot that will soon be going on in and around the Greenwood/Blue Dome areas and yes even a few things in the works for the East End. The East End is the natural next area of growth as the Brady District etc. get filled up. None of these areas are that large, they are quite small actually. All of the East End together would barely, imo, be able to create one decent sized, urban neighborhood. With the park already going in there, likely some parking regardless, then add to that a large stadium and it's requisite parking garages... you have just put another big hole in another area of downtown (that yes is next to a highway that itself acts as another gap) making yet another section of downtown an unlikely candidate for any hoped for urban neighborhood of any critical mass or decent size. The Brady District for instance is not going to be real urban neighborhood type area, the housing concentration potential is too spotty and there too are some gaps with the rail, the highway "unsavory developments" to the west, concert venues, etc. People will live there yes, but it's not going to feel like a quiet urban neighborhood with block after block of urban housing. Our downtown is very much an island and we are trying to squash into that tiny space a lot of things. We have to be a little bit careful where we put stuff or we will stumble into further generations of mediocrity and missed opportunity to create something great. The Pearl District people realize something like this as well. A critical mass of pedestrian friendly "urbanness" is why they are pushing for a half mile segmet of the area to have Form Based Codes. That's about the bare minimum size required to contain a functioning, coherent, mixed use "Urban Village" type area. Any smaller than that and it wont work. These things used to happen naturally, but in todays car centrict culture and zoning, you have to implement some things that will level the playing field and give pedestrian friendly, urban type developments a chance to get established and then grow without being slashed, gutted, and cut into small pieces at every turn.
For both practical and realistic reasons I would rather see the old Drillers staduim retrofitted for this use as a short-term solution. Get a franchise, use Driller's stadium, build up a track record of success and then see if a downtown stadium makes good sense for the city.
Just for comparison sake... I took the Houston Stadium site and put two boxes of similar size into the East Village and just look and what all it would take to tear down. The green area highlights the potential site of the Land Legacy urban park.
(http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/1002/houstonsite.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/houstonsite.jpg/)
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4862/evsite.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/evsite.jpg/)
TulsaRufnex I probably want an MLS team in Tulsa just as bad as you, I grew up playing soccer here in town for Hurricane and remember going to games when the Roughneck team played at Victory Christian. The East Village is not the right site and honestly the only site that could probably handle an MLS stadium would be the Home Depot block, but they won't be tearing that down anytime soon. If we wanted a stadium I would rather it go in somewhere in the Pearl District (maybe the super block between Quincy and Rockford and 4th St and 5th Ct), the Fintube site, or even the West Bank and connect the stadium site to downtown via Streetcar or Light Rail.
Quote from: Red Arrow on April 29, 2012, 11:09:00 PM
I actually expected Ruff to ignore the smiley. He may be correct in my opinion of him. If he thinks I am a jerk, I consider it a compliment.
::)
I find this quip insulting no matter what "smiley" you put beside it....
QuoteRuff is like a government agency. He won't be happy until we're not happy.
Quote from: ZYX on April 29, 2012, 10:08:44 PM
Did you ignore the smiley?
However, I disagree with putting up "good enough." Yeah, I'd rather just wait til perfect comes around instead of putting up something that's just better than what's there now.
Problem is, nobody agrees what "perfect" is....
From a few years back....
QuoteUSRufnex: I don't think alot of the people potentially interested in moving to urban areas are looking for perfection... just a friggin grocery store for pete's sake... and it happens to be a big pet-peeve of mine to hear delusions of utopian splendor and over-romanticized concepts of new urbanism posing as reasonable plans for urban development...
If a plan comes around the pike that involves an "anchor" for a TIF district that incldes a ballpark, or a soccer stadium, or a WalMart, or a Nordstrom's, or an IKEA, or a BassPro, or a Stillwater Natl Bank, or a bigbox Temple to Athena... it'd be nice to find out the details first... before the self-appointed gate-keepers of downtown start with urbanesque well-worn dogmas on what their downtown should look like...
The suburban folks who are routinely maligned (by posters in this forum) all have kids who could very definitely move into Tulsa's "walkable urbanity" if it becomes available and affordable in the coming years/decades... and some of those suburban folks could themselves "move into town" to retire... but only if they feel welcomed rather than scorned by the local cliques who consider themselves socially superior while dining on that oh-so-tasty Tulsa sushi... hmmm, this is starting to sound like a retread of an S.E. Hinton novel...
If OSU-Tulsa had offered what I was looking for five years ago, I woulda moved close to DT back then even without the required grocery store and could have stayed in Tulsa... I suspect my situation was pretty typical among the many Tulsans who eventually became ex-Tulsans...
I heard horror stories in the 90s from young apprentice artists for Tulsa Opera who stayed around downtown-- one of them made the huge mistake of coming to Tulsa without a car...
The area around KOTV/Blue Dome has improved over the past 5 years... especially if you like bars and a smattering of entertainment (which drains people from Cherry Street/Brookside, btw), but....
It is not a neighborhood. Call part of it an enclave if you want, or a co-op... or call it a microhood if you wish... but Tracy Park and Brady Heights are neighborhoods... the East Village-- scratch that-- the East End-- or whatever the realtors wanna call it next week, is not...
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on April 30, 2012, 11:38:45 PM
::)
I find this quip insulting no matter what "smiley" you put beside it....
Glad to see the Dale Carnegie course is paying dividends...
Quote from: Conan71 on May 01, 2012, 11:19:59 AM
Glad to see the Dale Carnegie course is paying dividends...
Glad you noticed, Mr. Ziglar...
Quote from: ZYX on April 29, 2012, 10:08:44 PM
However, I disagree with putting up "good enough." Yeah, I'd rather just wait til perfect comes around instead of putting up something that's just better than what's there now.
If I waited until "perfect" came along, I never would have moved back to Tulsa in the first place.
I would argue that if the proposed 5k-seat soccer stadium part of the rejected 1997 Tulsa Project had actually been built, it would have strengthened Tulsa's hand in 2003 and 2005 when the city was on Major League Soccer's radar.... and the east village/east end area would have been in a far better position for proposed development....
So, are we going to play a shell game by subsidizing risk with taxpayer money in a sparse area whose mid-century auto repair buildings have less historical significance than my 1928 craftsman bungalow in Owen Park?..... really?
I'll be walking to Mayfest and the Blue Dome Arts Festival today...... which will require a leisurely stroll past the salvation army and the county pokie.... again, not perfect... but still good...
Don't hold your breath, Ruff. Bottom line is that land's highest and best use would be a retirement village....but do not be disappointed if it becomes a major big box.... :-X
Quote from: swake on April 29, 2012, 12:24:18 PM
Two years from now the East End will look very different. There's really no room for a stadium already.
I agree the pieces of the puzzle are no longer available or viable for another attempt... years after a certain someone on this forum tirelessly argued that the "superblock" north of 6th and Frankfort would be perfect for a ballpark but not a a soccer stadium...
This thread was to point out that a downtown soccer stadium could have worked here....
Although I am happy to see cranes in the air around the Brady District, and to see some development north of 3rd Street, the area south of there is going to need some "heavy lifting".... so, is there any "anchor" proposed for this development?
I keep reading about smaller-scale individual projects... to use an 80s-era catchphrase.... "Where's the Beef?"
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on May 18, 2012, 10:18:37 AM
If I waited until "perfect" came along, I never would have moved back to Tulsa in the first place.
I would argue that if the proposed 5k-seat soccer stadium part of the rejected 1997 Tulsa Project had actually been built, it would have strengthened Tulsa's hand in 2003 and 2005 when the city was on Major League Soccer's radar.... and the east village/east end area would have been in a far better position for proposed development....
So, are we going to play a shell game by subsidizing risk with taxpayer money in a sparse area whose mid-century auto repair buildings have less historical significance than my 1928 craftsman bungalow in Owen Park?..... really?
I'll be walking to Mayfest and the Blue Dome Arts Festival today...... which will require a leisurely stroll past the salvation army and the county pokie.... again, not perfect... but still good...
You can always cross on the third St. bridge into downtown or is the hacienda north of 244?
...uphill from Quannah on West Brady, north of the 244/Keystone Expressway....
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on May 18, 2012, 10:45:49 AM
...uphill from Quannah on West Brady, north of the 244/Keystone Expressway.... against my better judgement, here's the youtube for the real estate listing-- and no, it's NOT for sale... it's mine, all mine....... this post will likely be removed by myself in next couple of hours.....
Presenting "The Humble Casa del TulsaRufnex"....
Mayfest after-party at Ruf's! Great house, very cool neighborhood.
(http://)Alright. So much for the idea of deleting the post containing my address... :P
So, after Mayfest... I took quite a few pictures of the "East End" area that supposedly doesn't have enough room for anything other than residential/mixed-use new urbanism....
I thought the only rule I had for this site is to respond to any Shadows post in the form of a Haiku.... Next rule: I will end all responses in this thread with a Dale Carnegie quote.... cheers!
This is "walkable urbanity".... in Chicago....
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3191/2959184311_b0b4bb3c5b_m.jpg)(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3166/2959999864_37d28bcf00_m.jpg)(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3235/2959158399_e3d95c3ab6.jpg)
"Remember, today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday." Dale Carnegie
I drove 244 last week and recognized your house. It sits well (on the side of a hill) and must have a great view of the river, refineries and downtown skyline. I really like that neighborhood.
Last 4th of July had three fireworks shows... the river... the ballpark... and the country club... remarkable... even had some "tourists" parked in front from around the neighborhood... and the house cost less than a studio condo cost on the northside of the windy city.... ;D
The boarded up house next door to me reminds me of the East End/East Village situation... owner refuses to sell... any prospective buyers would have little choice but to level it and start from scratch... yet "perfection" dictates a new owner should do a gut rehab... and so it sits. Go figure.
"Applause is a receipt, not a bill." Dale Carnegie
Welcome to NOT "walkable urbanity".... or designate-able "historic district"....
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7093/7289459106_03ebfb8427.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7087/7289460442_3b75a4d66d.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7094/7289484888_9ed4c0c18a.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7239/7289444142_134ca46075.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7225/7289464312_69915ec0b1.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7100/7289478364_36c7755c08.jpg)(http://)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7226/7289505612_73012668a3.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8165/7289514734_c2de2cd9d6.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7225/7289515620_f1135618a7.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8010/7289519046_4864e4a657.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7074/7289519098_72d772be2c.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7234/7289529588_a2c0bc31fd.jpg)
"First ask yourself: What is the worst that can happen? Then prepare to accept it. Then proceed to improve on the worst." Dale Carnegie
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8017/7289530462_226060ccaf.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7226/7289531398_a3e560aff4.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8022/7289535418_948c7e7874.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7236/7289540854_784cbf70e1.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8010/7289552244_250d045ae7.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7229/7289553740_3eedbdb971.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7232/7289556778_210bc7f061.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7093/7289558336_1e1e1d9728.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8019/7289562272_b8ca36d77a.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8165/7289565048_123040c3c5.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7082/7289560766_a2b88a0e66.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7232/7289580518_cd23e76322.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7229/7289581064_908cca12dc.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7105/7289582946_4245cd82b6.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7085/7289586768_5b8366bb7c.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8015/7289595946_6d4787470a.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7222/7289602816_e3f6e80f74.jpg)
"Do you remember the things you were worrying about a year ago? How did they work out? Didn't you waste a lot of fruitless energy on account of most of them? Didn't most of them turn out all right after all?" Dale Carnegie
It's not walkable urbanity now, but boy if there is any area that would be great for it to be that way, this would be it. I would really hope this could be the "urban neighborhood" area for downtown.
I see a lot of potential in this area. I think sooner, rather than later, we will see a huge change come to this side of downtown.
Quote from: ZYX on May 28, 2012, 10:32:57 PM
I see a lot of potential in this area. I think sooner, rather than later, we will see a huge change come to this side of downtown.
Thank you. I never would have guessed that meaning. I truly mean no disrespect. I really had no idea what you were saying. Probably comes from not having kids old enough to be your parents as translators.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 28, 2012, 10:39:52 PM
Thank you. I never would have guessed that meaning. I truly mean no disrespect. I really had no idea what you were saying. Probably comes from not having kids old enough to be your parents as translators.
Huh?
Quote from: ZYX on May 28, 2012, 10:42:32 PM
Huh?
We are playing telephone tag. Plus, I answered the incorrect post. See other thread.
Quote from: TheArtist on May 28, 2012, 07:42:22 PM
It's not walkable urbanity now, but boy if there is any area that would be great for it to be that way, this would be it. I would really hope this could be the "urban neighborhood" area for downtown.
I am pointing out that if the 5k soccer stadium from the 1997 Tulsa Project or the ballpark had been built south of 3rd and Frankfort/Elgin, we'd see proper "infill" which would have already spurred walkable development to create the kind of demand most downtown boosters claim they want... in fact, I would also argue that the BOk Center would have been better located in that same space, rather than across from the courthouse and the pokie.... that said, I certainly don't miss the Towerview Apts.... :D
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7093/7289459106_03ebfb8427.jpg)
I met the previous bar owners of the brick building surrounded by asphalt on 3rd St pictured above... the guy was from New York, I believe... his girlfriend went to Union and they were ballroom dancers... great people... I also met a grand ole lady who went by the name "Snowflake".... the building was that couple's dream, they had plans for using the back area as an outdoor comedy club, etc etc.... I'm not advocating that we take a wrecking ball to every building in that area but that part of town is largely made up of ugly, neglected industrial... the Tribune Lofts in the Brady District made sense but even that building had a lot of vacancies for years.... "Nordham Lofts" or "Bill White Lofts" ?... just doesn't make much sense to me.... today's affordable industrial lofts = tomorrow's meth labs.... :o
So, when we talk about this demand for "affordable housing" downtown, are we talking about publicly subsidizing housing inside the IDL for downtown waitstaff and busboys and bartenders? Are we proposing the area have a historical designation as a convenient excuse to get money from the state? Will "gut rehabs" for buildings that have been neglected for years require more cost than building new units? Or are we going to lobby for public money to offset costs for new construction?
Because my home in Owen Park is literally a few houses uphill from gut rehabs of homes and duplexes, as well as a few vintage red brick buildings.... units that will be ready and waiting for low wage downtown workers who want affordable living in the area where they work. And I believe there are other duplexes in Brady Heights that could use good renters... ditto for Crosbie Heights.... based on my home buying hunt, I'd also argue that we already have an "affordable condo glut" in this city, many units are already owned by "investors" -- I balked at buying a condo because I felt if I ultimately had to sell it years later, the unit would be on the market for months and months and I'd be selling to an investor, not a fellow buyer...
I also believe an over-emphasis on residential for the 100+ acres known as the East Village/East End could end up hurting areas like the Pearl District... in the 90s I lived in Indianapolis and noticed a great downtown scene, but some scary and sparse neighborhoods just outside downtown Indy, literally surrounding the downtown oasis/entertainment district that had been created....
Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. Dale Carnegie
I suspect we'll see tournament soccer played on OneOK Field in the future.
Competitive Youth Soccer in Tulsa is really exploding. Last weekend my kids played in a tournament in east Tulsa with 330 teams. They played teams from Texas and Arkansas and all over this state. Soccer teams spend at hotels and restaurants.
Broken Arrow is investing in their complex, River Parks just signed new compacts with a club to manage their fields and there is a new soccer complex opening this year on highway 75 in Mohawk Park.
If you want to see the best public investment I ever saw, go to the soccer complex in Overland Park. The city voted a bond issue to build 12 soccer fields for $36 million. They are state of the art with cooling systems under artificial turf, electronic video boards for scores, great parking, concessions, free wifi, etc. They now host regional and national tournaments 30 weekends a year and help fill 35
hotels and 200 restaurants two nights a week.
http://www.opkansas.org/Things-to-See-And-Do/Soccer-Complex
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 08, 2012, 11:38:42 AM
I am pointing out that if the 5k soccer stadium from the 1997 Tulsa Project or the ballpark had been built south of 3rd and Frankfort/Elgin, we'd see proper "infill" which would have already spurred walkable development to create the kind of demand most downtown boosters claim they want... in fact, I would also argue that the BOk Center would have been better located in that same space, rather than across from the courthouse and the pokie.... that said, I certainly don't miss the Towerview Apts.... :D
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7093/7289459106_03ebfb8427.jpg)
I met the previous bar owners of the brick building surrounded by asphalt on 3rd St pictured above... the guy was from New York, I believe... his girlfriend went to Union and they were ballroom dancers... great people... I also met a grand ole lady who went by the name "Snowflake".... the building was that couple's dream, they had plans for using the back area as an outdoor comedy club, etc etc.... I'm not advocating that we take a wrecking ball to every building in that area but that part of town is largely made up of ugly, neglected industrial... the Tribune Lofts in the Brady District made sense but even that building had a lot of vacancies for years.... "Nordham Lofts" or "Bill White Lofts" ?... just doesn't make much sense to me.... today's affordable industrial lofts = tomorrow's meth labs.... :o
So, when we talk about this demand for "affordable housing" downtown, are we talking about publicly subsidizing housing inside the IDL for downtown waitstaff and busboys and bartenders? Are we proposing the area have a historical designation as a convenient excuse to get money from the state? Will "gut rehabs" for buildings that have been neglected for years require more cost than building new units? Or are we going to lobby for public money to offset costs for new construction?
Because my home in Owen Park is literally a few houses uphill from gut rehabs of homes and duplexes, as well as a few vintage red brick buildings.... units that will be ready and waiting for low wage downtown workers who want affordable living in the area where they work. And I believe there are other duplexes in Brady Heights that could use good renters... ditto for Crosbie Heights.... based on my home buying hunt, I'd also argue that we already have an "affordable condo glut" in this city, many units are already owned by "investors" -- I balked at buying a condo because I felt if I ultimately had to sell it years later, the unit would be on the market for months and months and I'd be selling to an investor, not a fellow buyer...
I also believe an over-emphasis on residential for the 100+ acres known as the East Village/East End could end up hurting areas like the Pearl District... in the 90s I lived in Indianapolis and noticed a great downtown scene, but some scary and sparse neighborhoods just outside downtown Indy, literally surrounding the downtown oasis/entertainment district that had been created....
I'm sure you're right that had the first Tulsa Project proposal passed and built various sports facilities all over downtown we would currently have more development/in-fill in parts of downtown – although most likely very different from what we are seeing happen today. However, I think that development would be primarily a matter of timing and not necessarily a function of the quality of the ideas in the Tulsa Project. The failure of the Tulsa Project costs us 8 or 9 years in building a downtown arena, which was always the linchpin for other downtown development. We've been playing catch up every since.
For now the East End is underutilized and will likely to remain so for a while. However, patience is required as the other elements of downtown take shape and demand grows to push development. The East End represents the largest area left in the IDL for development. I would prefer to see a series of smaller projects like appear to be happening rather than a giant development of the sort that have been proposed there in the past. Smaller projects have the benefit of learning from the others and making any small corrections along the way that may be necessary.
Quote from: DTowner on June 08, 2012, 01:45:05 PM
I'm sure you're right that had the first Tulsa Project proposal passed and built various sports facilities all over downtown we would currently have more development/in-fill in parts of downtown – although most likely very different from what we are seeing happen today. However, I think that development would be primarily a matter of timing and not necessarily a function of the quality of the ideas in the Tulsa Project. The failure of the Tulsa Project costs us 8 or 9 years in building a downtown arena, which was always the linchpin for other downtown development. We've been playing catch up every since.
For now the East End is underutilized and will likely to remain so for a while. However, patience is required as the other elements of downtown take shape and demand grows to push development. The East End represents the largest area left in the IDL for development. I would prefer to see a series of smaller projects like appear to be happening rather than a giant development of the sort that have been proposed there in the past. Smaller projects have the benefit of learning from the others and making any small corrections along the way that may be necessary.
Since the Tulsa Project, the area had been proposed as a movie set , then Mixed-Use I http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2002/05/27/daily72.html , Mixed-Use with Sports Stadium http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=2301.0;wap2 , Urban Walmart http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A15952 , Mixed-Use II http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302&allcom=1
What kind of demand is there currently to live inside the IDL? What kind of demand can be created/manipulated(?) to spur development inside the IDL? What is a better use of space?... housing? entertainment? small retail? big box retail? Who pays? Who benefits?
And who loses? (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7100/7365909210_c81bdd93b8_m.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7233/7180682535_041a4a2b3e_m.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8004/7365909312_1f2e63be88_m.jpg)
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 08, 2012, 12:04:05 PM
Competitive Youth Soccer in Tulsa is really exploding. Last weekend my kids played in a tournament in east Tulsa with 330 teams. They played teams from Texas and Arkansas and all over this state. Soccer teams spend at hotels and restaurants.
Broken Arrow is investing in their complex, River Parks just signed new compacts with a club to manage their fields and there is a new soccer complex opening this year on highway 75 in Mohawk Park.
If you want to see the best public investment I ever saw, go to the soccer complex in Overland Park. The city voted a bond issue to build 12 soccer fields for $36 million. They are state of the art with cooling systems under artificial turf, electronic video boards for scores, great parking, concessions, free wifi, etc. They now host regional and national tournaments 30 weekends a year and help fill 35
hotels and 200 restaurants two nights a week.
http://www.opkansas.org/Things-to-See-And-Do/Soccer-Complex
In 2010, after I discussed the idea of bringing a re-branded Tulsa Roughnecks to the fairgrounds, former Chicago Fire GM Peter Wilt told me in a rather lengthy phone conversation that the conversion of the cement parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack into tournament level soccer fields could be very lucrative; especially with the additional advantage of being next door to a re-vamped Drillers Stadium setup for a pro soccer team. Karen Keith and others I corresponded with were pleased with the idea but........
A particular meeting with county officials, also in 2010, made me feel that any substantial volunteer efforts on my part to entice financial support for an NASL team at the Fairgrounds would be a colossal waste of time.... pity, because league officials from the NASL were prepared to fly to Tulsa in the summer of 2010 to check out the fairgrounds and drum up publicity, etc.... http://www.nasl.com/
Evidently, the county finds their seldom used parking spaces to be quite lucrative... I was also told the county would NEVER allow a pro soccer team to receive any deal similar to what the Drillers enjoyed, and they also insisted they would be the sole concessions vendor for the team, and that the county would pocket 100% of concessions revenues... it was no surprise to me when I received a response from Cameron-Box Sports indicating that they had no interest in the idea of NASL Soccer at the fairgrounds idea due to "a lack of revenue streams."
So, what kind of revenue has been/is being created or generated to Tulsa County from concessions sales at the old ballpark in the last two years? Nada.
And 100% of nada is.... well.... nada. ::)
San Antonio has our arena football team... http://www.sanantoniotalons.com/
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lskw8miWyy1qmtdxs.png)
They also have an NASL team.... http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6d/San-antonio-scorpions.png/200px-San-antonio-scorpions.png)
....oh, and are building a soccer stadium.... http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/team-news/item/256-ground-broken-for-scorpions-community-stadium-home-of-san-antonio%27s-new-pro-soccer-team
(http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/media/k2/items/cache/7e58113966c67085953dd45e2ed189c9_M.jpg)
But we did get a re-tread of a Charlie Mitchell's restaurant on south Yale...
Go figure.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 18, 2012, 10:22:22 AM
Don't hold your breath, Ruff. Bottom line is that land's highest and best use would be a retirement village....but do not be disappointed if it becomes a major big box.... :-X
Strangely enough, I'd shop at another big box if one were located north of the Home Depot; most Home Depots are located next to other big boxes anyway...
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 12, 2012, 03:59:44 PM
In 2010, after I discussed the idea of bringing a re-branded Tulsa Roughnecks to the fairgrounds, former Chicago Fire GM Peter Wilt told me in a rather lengthy phone conversation that the conversion of the cement parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack into tournament level soccer fields could be very lucrative; especially with the additional advantage of being next door to a re-vamped Drillers Stadium setup for a pro soccer team. Karen Keith and others I correspended with were pleased with the idea but........
A particular meeting with county officials, also in 2010, made me feel that any substantial volunteer efforts on my part to entice financial support for an NASL team at the Fairgrounds would be a colossal waste of time.... pity, because league officials from the NASL were prepared to fly to Tulsa in the summer of 2010 to check out the fairgrounds and drum up publicity, etc.... http://www.nasl.com/
Evidently, the county finds their seldom used parking spaces to be quite lucrative... I was also told the county would NEVER allow a pro soccer team to receive any deal similar to what the Drillers enjoyed, and they also insisted they would be the sole concessions vendor for the team, and that the county would pocket 100% of concessions revenues... it was no surprise to me when I received a response from Cameron-Box Sports indicating that they had no interest in the idea of NASL Soccer at the fairgrounds idea due to "a lack of revenue streams."
So, what kind of revenue has been/is being created or generated to Tulsa County from concessions sales at the old ballpark in the last two years? Nada.
And 100% of nada is.... well.... nada. ::)
San Antonio has our arena football team... http://www.sanantoniotalons.com/
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lskw8miWyy1qmtdxs.png)
They also have an NASL team.... http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6d/San-antonio-scorpions.png/200px-San-antonio-scorpions.png)
....oh, and are building a soccer stadium.... http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/team-news/item/256-ground-broken-for-scorpions-community-stadium-home-of-san-antonio%27s-new-pro-soccer-team
(http://www.sanantonioscorpions.com/media/k2/items/cache/7e58113966c67085953dd45e2ed189c9_M.jpg)
But we did get a re-tread of a Charlie Mitchell's restaurant on south Yale...
Go figure.
But we did get THE SHOCK!!!!!
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 12, 2012, 01:07:23 PM
Since the Tulsa Project, the area had been proposed as a movie set , then Mixed-Use I http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2002/05/27/daily72.html , Mixed-Use with Sports Stadium http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=2301.0;wap2 , Urban Walmart http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A15952 , Mixed-Use II http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302&allcom=1
What kind of demand is there currently to live inside the IDL? What kind of demand can be created/manipulated(?) to spur development inside the IDL? What is a better use of space?... housing? entertainment? small retail? big box retail? Who pays? Who benefits?
And who loses? (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7100/7365909210_c81bdd93b8_m.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7233/7180682535_041a4a2b3e_m.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8004/7365909312_1f2e63be88_m.jpg)
I thought it was my point that these large multi-use developments that have been proposed for the East End and all flamed out are not, in my opinion, the best use of the space. I would love to see pro soccer in Tulsa, but I don't think a single purpose soccer stadium in the East End is the best use of that space.
As for demand for housing, there seems to be steady demand for housing inside the IDL based on the performace of the houseing that has come online the past few years. That said, I suspect that demand has its limits, which is why I'd rather see a steady stream of small projects that can meet the demand without getting too far in front of it.
With CUSA bringing their basketball tournament here again next year will their soccer tournament hosted by ONEOK Field be next?
From what I can tell, none of the homes and the building you have posted there are in the East End? Are we talking about the same area? There aren't really many big chunks of land left in the East End with the new smaller housing developments, church and parks, etc. that are purported to be going in over there, and once those get going there will be more to follow relatively soon pretty much wiping out a lot big enough for a stadium and parking in the East End.
I don't see a soccer team being extraordinarily successful, and not enough really to justify a single purpose stadium downtown. Would it be possible for the stadium to host a weekly high school football game, a "Game of the Week" sort of deal? Semi-pro football? That might give it better viability. Outdoor concerts could happen there. I'm just trying to think of things. Building a stadium for a soccer team just seems incredibly risky. If it doesn't work out, you have a useless stadium taking up space downtown.
Quote from: DowntownDan on June 13, 2012, 01:10:10 PM
I don't see a soccer team being extraordinarily successful, and not enough really to justify a single purpose stadium downtown. Would it be possible for the stadium to host a weekly high school football game, a "Game of the Week" sort of deal? Semi-pro football? That might give it better viability. Outdoor concerts could happen there. I'm just trying to think of things. Building a stadium for a soccer team just seems incredibly risky. If it doesn't work out, you have a useless stadium taking up space downtown.
One perhaps forgets that with our growing Hispanic population whose sport is basically soccer "football", you might be suprised at how many people would attend.
Quote from: TheArtist on June 13, 2012, 09:55:43 AM
From what I can tell, none of the homes and the building you have posted there are in the East End? Are we talking about the same area? There aren't really many big chunks of land left in the East End with the new smaller housing developments, church and parks, etc. that are purported to be going in over there, and once those get going there will be more to follow relatively soon pretty much wiping out a lot big enough for a stadium and parking in the East End.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7100/7365909210_c81bdd93b8_m.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7233/7180682535_041a4a2b3e_m.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8004/7365909312_1f2e63be88_m.jpg)
The three pics from my last post are from the Owen Park neighborhood. The middle one is the house next door to me... wouldn't mind having somebody buy, then teardown to make way for a McMansion.... the other two could be renovated relatively cheaply and would be much more appropriate as "affordable housing" over the potentially expensive "conversion" of ugly buildings like the Nordham warehouses IMHO... Walkable to downtown? Maybe not. Scooter or bicycle friendly? Yes. Affordable? Yes.
All other pics are from the east end/east village south of 3rd Street... acres and acres of asphalt and eye-sore.
Artist... when you talk about how this is a logical "next step" for residential, I wonder if you're talking about the same area I've walked.... the area between Home Depot and 3rd Street.... because the differences between the Brady District and this area are enormous. Which is why any idea for the East Village in past years has included an "anchor"... whether that be a stadium or a concert venue or a big box.... why would you put a park there when we already have a park by the Pearl District? who's proposing a park there? and who's going to be paying for this "park"?
I'm simply asking: Is there an "anchor" development being proposed for this area?... if so, who is paying for it? is it being subsidized? why would anyone who's walked the blocks and blocks of ugly surface parking and ugly buildings ever deem this area "historical" ("National Registry of Historic Warehouses" anyone?) ...so it can be eligible for tax credits or state funds? Really?
It defies logic.
Quote from: rdj on June 13, 2012, 09:18:57 AM
With CUSA bringing their basketball tournament here again next year will their soccer tournament hosted by ONEOK Field be next?
As much as I'd like to see your idea come to fruition, TU has hosted the CUSA soccer tourney before at their stadium, which holds a little over 1k... (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Hurricane_Track_and_Soccer_Stadium_at_TU.jpg/250px-Hurricane_Track_and_Soccer_Stadium_at_TU.jpg)
It's hard for me to see many reasons why the Drillers would be inclined to allow soccer games at their new ballpark... Frontier Field in Rochester, NY was built primarily for baseball, but also with soccer in mind... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Field Oneok Park, sadly, was not.
Strangely enough, Oneok Park was designed by
Populous (formerly HOK Sport), the same group that designed the new stadium for the Rochester Rhinos soccer team. Let's just say the setting and resetting of Frontier Field for soccer and lacrosse became problematic.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester_Rhinos_Stadium http://www.bartonandloguidice.com/Services/SportsandRecreation/SportsandRecreationPortfolio/tabid/1003/Default.aspx (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/PAETEC_Park_overview.JPG/250px-PAETEC_Park_overview.JPG)
The Owen Park resident part of me has one perspective on downtown/Brady/Blue Dome/East End/East Village.... while the soccer fan in me has another...
Frankly, I'd want a pro soccer franchise to have:
1. A high profile venue. (Sure, they
could play at a high school stadium... and the WNBA Shock
could play at the Mabee Center or UMAC, if you get my drift)
2. The ability to sell corporate suites.
3. A venue they largely control with "1st tenant" status. (control over how concessions are handled, a nice cut of concessions sold, flexibility to allow for tailgate parties, ability to control dates so as not to be "bumped" if the mayor's daughter decides to hold her wedding reception there... ;D)
4. As many revenue streams as possible--- i.e. parking proceeds, lucrative youth soccer tourneys, beer sales, etc etc... see also #2 and #3 above...
5. A local ownership group with the financial wherewithal to execute a "decade plan," rather than repeat the failures of the handful of doomed semi-pro soccer teams we've had in the past.
If the county would offer these terms at the Fairgrounds, I bet I could sell somebody with $$$ on the idea... (maybe local, maybe not).
Beyond that, I wouldn't care where the stadium was located as long as the above five conditions were met. As for future construction of a stadium, that option would depend on whether the owner(s) would be more interested in converting the horsetrack at the fairgrounds into tourney level soccer fields, or build a mixed-use development on the west bank, or a stadium in BA or Jenks, or a stadium somehow connected to the new fields by Mohawk, or a downtown stadium that could bookend the downtown ballpark.... etc, etc....
I didn't mention the Evans Fintube site because I believe that's a place where good ideas go to die (i.e. Oklahoma School of Visual & Performing Arts) :o
Quote from: DowntownDan on June 13, 2012, 01:10:10 PM
I don't see a soccer team being extraordinarily successful, and not enough really to justify a single purpose stadium downtown. Would it be possible for the stadium to host a weekly high school football game, a "Game of the Week" sort of deal? Semi-pro football? That might give it better viability. Outdoor concerts could happen there. I'm just trying to think of things. Building a stadium for a soccer team just seems incredibly risky. If it doesn't work out, you have a useless stadium taking up space downtown.
As long as the soccer franchise is treated as "first tenant," I believe the options to use the field for more than soccer are more likely and more desireable than the options at Oneok to use the field for more than baseball... FC Dallas Stadium is owned by the City of Frisco and has been used for quite a bit more than just soccer.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Dallas_Stadium
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 14, 2012, 03:18:42 AM
As long as the soccer franchise is treated as "first tenant," I believe the options to use the field for more than soccer are more likely and more desireable than the options at Oneok to use the field for more than baseball... FC Dallas Stadium is owned by the City of Frisco and has been used for quite a bit more than just soccer.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Dallas_Stadium
You forget the Drillers don't own OneOK Field. The Tulsa Ballpark Authority does. While not an expert on the lease, based on conversations I've had, I feel confident in saying it is in the works for OneOK Field to host soccer games. I think the success of the AC Milan tourney here will help propel the idea of more soccer in Tulsa.
I hope you're right. Not sure what kind of tournament or exhibition game could be setup at that venue....
For years, I've believed that these fans deserved as much.....
(http://www.kcpace.com/4_5_03_preki.jpg)(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2005/051118_a1_citym117_a1soc18.jpg)
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 13, 2012, 11:49:20 PM
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7100/7365909210_c81bdd93b8_m.jpg)(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7233/7180682535_041a4a2b3e_m.jpg)(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8004/7365909312_1f2e63be88_m.jpg)
The three pics from my last post are from the Owen Park neighborhood. The middle one is the house next door to me... wouldn't mind having somebody buy, then teardown to make way for a McMansion.... the other two could be renovated relatively cheaply and would be much more appropriate as "affordable housing" over the potentially expensive "conversion" of ugly buildings like the Nordham warehouses IMHO... Walkable to downtown? Maybe not. Scooter or bicycle friendly? Yes. Affordable? Yes.
All other pics are from the east end/east village south of 3rd Street... acres and acres of asphalt and eye-sore.
Artist... when you talk about how this is a logical "next step" for residential, I wonder if you're talking about the same area I've walked.... the area between Home Depot and 3rd Street.... because the differences between the Brady District and this area are enormous. Which is why any idea for the East Village in past years has included an "anchor"... whether that be a stadium or a concert venue or a big box.... why would you put a park there when we already have a park by the Pearl District? who's proposing a park there? and who's going to be paying for this "park"?
I'm simply asking: Is there an "anchor" development being proposed for this area?... if so, who is paying for it? is it being subsidized? why would anyone who's walked the blocks and blocks of ugly surface parking and ugly buildings ever deem this area "historical" ("National Registry of Historic Warehouses" anyone?) ...so it can be eligible for tax credits or state funds? Really?
It defies logic.
Some of the developments I can point out right off the top of my head for the area include the Land Legacy park wich runs all the way from 2nd to 7th along Frankfort. Fox's Urban 8, plus some other housing projects, will be near that to the north of the park, also the OU/TU med school which hopefully will need room to grow, and then to the south of the park will be the new All Souls Church. The Bill White Chevrolet apartment/loft project will be underway this Fall to the west of the park. Once these get underway I can see housing going all around this new park in short order. And who knows, one anchor to the area could be Blakes Movie Theater project.
I think soccer would work here. It would do a lot better than the WNBA team that can't seem to win ANY games. But for a soccer specific stadium to make sense it would need a soccer complex around it for tournaments and leagues and that's not something that should be downtown.
There's land available down across the street from the MTSC soccer complex right on the river at 106th. Build a stadium there. There's a number of good sites for big soccer complexes. 71st and Riverside in the unfinished park area, the several blocks of empty land north of OSU Tulsa near downtown, across Elwood from Jones Airport.
If they are doing a 2025v2 push to have soccer be part of it, I think most would support it. Just not downtown.
Artist, Urban 8 is Freese not Fox, and I did not check spelling.
Quote from: carltonplace on June 15, 2012, 12:13:31 PM
Artist, Urban 8 is Freese not Fox, and I did not check spelling.
My bad. I lose track of all the different proposals and such on occasion lol.
Quote from: swake on June 15, 2012, 10:08:44 AM
I think soccer would work here. It would do a lot better than the WNBA team that can't seem to win ANY games. But for a soccer specific stadium to make sense it would need a soccer complex around it for tournaments and leagues and that's not something that should be downtown.
There's land available down across the street from the MTSC soccer complex right on the river at 106th. Build a stadium there. There's a number of good sites for big soccer complexes. 71st and Riverside in the unfinished park area, the several blocks of empty land north of OSU Tulsa near downtown, across Elwood from Jones Airport.
If they are doing a 2025v2 push to have soccer be part of it, I think most would support it. Just not downtown.
"Just not downtown." Why?
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I believe that if tax dollars are being used to fund/finance, then IMHO the East Village area inside the IDL should evolve into it's own entertainment/business district that all Tulsans can enjoy... not just a publicly subsidized neighborhood enclave... from my grade school learnin', I was taught that the area inside the IDL of any city was intended for use as a "central business district," and I am not highly impressed by those who'd turn that area into their own little "microhood" playground. It'd be different if this particular area of downtown had blocks of old row houses or brownstones just waiting to be re-habbed, ala Baltimore or Chicago, or if these ideas were to be funded without taxpayer assistance, but neither is currently the case. If there's sufficient demand for urban housing inside the IDL, why the need for tax dollars? There's a reason why the few old apt. buildings inside the IDL turned into skidrow Towerview-style eyesores in the first place--- ignore those facts at your peril.
As for pro soccer, there is no magic formula that would guarantee success or failure based on whether or not youth soccer fields are positioned directly next door to a stadium.... for Tulsa, a stadium could be located at the fairgrounds and that big parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack could be used for massive tailgate parties rather than conversion into soccer fields.... or the franchise could attempt to share the Drillers' downtown location at Oneok Park for 14 regular season home games while the team/operating group partners with the city to use and promote the new tournament ready soccer fields by Mohawk Park... or if the youth soccer fields were privately-owned by a certain individual, it may make financial sense for that stadium to be located in an area the owner controls, like what's going on in San Antonio.... http://www.morganswonderland.com/# http://www.starsoccersa.com/
Toronto has a downtown MLS stadium... Houston is building one... Vancouver wants one... Dallas (Frisco) and Kansas City have the suburban model....
More reading... from a Baltimore downtown stadium proposal dated December 2010...
(https://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShGXHpc0bCBefOQYBn4rpwy-J5aCVcg-RE2HtlIxuMmgU7EgHLgSKIOSpaQrxPYSR4dpvjNsr6_s_MUq-W1wwN2WIJnFhTsS1y302uiXSZBRhW8UxQHB44lFNx5rSXJCQ71AgMa&q=cache%3AnmAM5H23oBMJ%3Awww.bizjournals.com%2Fbaltimore%2Fpdf%2FBaltimore%2520soccer%2520stadium%2520study.pdf%20&docid=c362e2d4d63b9b490fca9ea3262d87ba&a=bi&pagenumber=95&w=800)(https://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShGXHpc0bCBefOQYBn4rpwy-J5aCVcg-RE2HtlIxuMmgU7EgHLgSKIOSpaQrxPYSR4dpvjNsr6_s_MUq-W1wwN2WIJnFhTsS1y302uiXSZBRhW8UxQHB44lFNx5rSXJCQ71AgMa&q=cache%3AnmAM5H23oBMJ%3Awww.bizjournals.com%2Fbaltimore%2Fpdf%2FBaltimore%2520soccer%2520stadium%2520study.pdf%20&docid=c362e2d4d63b9b490fca9ea3262d87ba&a=bi&pagenumber=96&w=800)(https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:nmAM5H23oBMJ:www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/pdf/Baltimore%2520soccer%2520stadium%2520study.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShGXHpc0bCBefOQYBn4rpwy-J5aCVcg-RE2HtlIxuMmgU7EgHLgSKIOSpaQrxPYSR4dpvjNsr6_s_MUq-W1wwN2WIJnFhTsS1y302uiXSZBRhW8UxQHB44lFNx5rSXJCQ71AgMa&sig=AHIEtbTYeEiL5eE3ksdk197qxOpnv4cJ8A)
The study in it's entirety can be viewed here... https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:nmAM5H23oBMJ:www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/pdf/Baltimore%2520soccer%2520stadium%2520study.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShGXHpc0bCBefOQYBn4rpwy-J5aCVcg-RE2HtlIxuMmgU7EgHLgSKIOSpaQrxPYSR4dpvjNsr6_s_MUq-W1wwN2WIJnFhTsS1y302uiXSZBRhW8UxQHB44lFNx5rSXJCQ71AgMa&sig=AHIEtbTYeEiL5eE3ksdk197qxOpnv4cJ8A
I'm telling you with everything already planned in the East End area, there is no space for a stadium. A soccer stadium would need to be at least as large as Oneok and that's just not happening. There are three and maybe four housing projects, a medical school, a church, Tulsa Opera and a park all planned for that area. Land is already sold or under contract. It's done. In 18 months the East End, Village, whatever it ends up being called will look nothing like it does today.
Quote from: swake on June 15, 2012, 02:11:31 PM
In 18 months the East End, Village, whatever it ends up being called will look nothing like it does today.
Man, I sure hope so!
Let's see......
DECEMBER 14, 2011
Sparking Tulsa's East VillageNew OU/TU med school and All Souls Unitarian come downtown
BY RAY PEARCEY
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A45118
QuoteThe first of the signal projects is the new OU/TU School of Community Medicine (SOCM). The project is one of the long-standing efforts of OU Tulsa Pres. Gerard Clancy, and has significant support from the Tulsa medical community and a host of local and national players. Fueled in large by George Kaiser Family Foundation donations and a $2.3 million acquisition outlay by partner University of Tulsa, the project will use the now shuttered 75,000 square foot Hartford building at 1st and Greenwood -- at the northern rim of the East Village.
QuoteASUU, the largest Unitarian Universalist church in the world, will be moving to a site bounded by Kenosha and Frankfurt Aves. and 6th and 7th Sts. on a green field super block.
QuoteThe new medical school and All Souls Unitarian will be situated on a punctuated axle that extends from seventh and Frankfurt all the way up to the Hartford building at 1st and Greenwood. Collectively the projects will almost surely spark a bevy of new housing, retail, entertainment and small business activity that might have taken many years to manifest absent these two keystone efforts.
So, from the info in this article... the anchors for development will be the med school located west of the Blue Dome district at 1st and Greenwood... and the new All Souls Unitarian Church which will occupy the superblock just north of Home Depot.
(https://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjjdV3H6VnuDzmormsT8eet7CVw9viXxb2dqjzT8SXBObj9s2n7GXYdFZPqW1OnBe1GCE3CP2FhzsCwKQjOiyjzRQcEFVCnJ82mU9UkYzPeYIq2zUBGCdI0Lnsl-qIfsaZzwZkn&q=cache%3AOWI4MmWxTaMJ%3Awww.landlegacy.com%2Fpdf%2F2011_highlights.pdf%20&docid=25212cc922066c639cb3f4a6d3a65c08&a=bi&pagenumber=9&w=800)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7087/7289460442_3b75a4d66d.jpg)
I'll take some more pictures in 18 months... ;D
Wow, downtowns inside the IDL are supposed to be business districts? Egads, didn't know anyone still held that view. Thats one thing that helped to destroy downtown. Last week actually was walking down Boston Ave by the Atlas Life Hotel and a young YP type guy was being helped out of a taxi with some suitcases and I only caught a bit of the conversation but the guy helping him said "well, this downtown is mostly office buildings" and the young guy looking around said "wow what a strange downtown". In many a downtown these days the tide has turned so much that there is more living than work and entertainment! Downtowns should, in my own humble opinion, contain a healthy mix of business, arts and educational offerings, hotels and entertainment, living, and shopping. The East End is already beginning to evolve into an urban neighborhood type area whether any of us on here likes it or not. Plus, again, it seems like an obvious area to do just that considering what is happening in other parts of downtown and just past the IDL to the east with the Pearl District. You could live in the East End then walk to work and shop in the "Deco/business District", see your arts,concerts and museums in the Brady Arts District, go clubbing and dining in the Blue Dome, and then go back to your quiet urban neighborhood near the parks in the East End, then on the opposite side of downtown you have your big arena and convention center, federal buildings, and big hotels and parking garages. Can't really tell what will happen with the Church/TCC area over time. All areas will of course have a mix of things, but some areas do tend to lean more towards one use or another.
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 15, 2012, 01:50:44 PM
"Just not downtown." Why?
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I believe that if tax dollars are being used to fund/finance, then IMHO the East Village area inside the IDL should evolve into it's own entertainment/business district that all Tulsans can enjoy... not just a publicly subsidized neighborhood enclave... from my grade school learnin', I was taught that the area inside the IDL of any city was intended for use as a "central business district," and I am not highly impressed by those who'd turn that area into their own little "microhood" playground. It'd be different if this particular area of downtown had blocks of old row houses or brownstones just waiting to be re-habbed, ala Baltimore or Chicago, or if these ideas were to be funded without taxpayer assistance, but neither is currently the case. If there's sufficient demand for urban housing inside the IDL, why the need for tax dollars? There's a reason why the few old apt. buildings inside the IDL turned into skidrow Towerview-style eyesores in the first place--- ignore those facts at your peril.
As for pro soccer, there is no magic formula that would guarantee success or failure based on whether or not youth soccer fields are positioned directly next door to a stadium.... for Tulsa, a stadium could be located at the fairgrounds and that big parking lot in the middle of the horsetrack could be used for massive tailgate parties rather than conversion into soccer fields.... or the franchise could attempt to share the Drillers' downtown location at Oneok Park for 14 regular season home games while the team/operating group partners with the city to use and promote the new tournament ready soccer fields by Mohawk Park... or if the youth soccer fields were privately-owned by a certain individual, it may make financial sense for that stadium to be located in an area the owner controls, like what's going on in San Antonio.... http://www.morganswonderland.com/# http://www.starsoccersa.com/
Now I'm really confused. You say that the East End should not be a subsidized playground for the few, but then you advocate a publically funded single purpose soccer stadium. You are advocating for the exact thing you claim to oppose. As noted in many posts, almost none of the projects currently planned for the East End are subsidized. Others have addressed your other points.
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 15, 2012, 03:25:29 PM
I'll take some more pictures in 18 months... ;D
The Land Legacy park is planned to stretch from 1st and Greenwood where the medical school is going down to 6th and Harford where All Souls is going. There's a lot already planned in between along the path of the park. At 3rd and Greenwood Urban8 is supposed to start construction soon and Elliott Nelson is planning the Hartford Commons residential building right next door. At 4th to 5th and Frankfort halfway up the other side of the Park the city has sold the old TFD Headquarters to Tulsa Opera for their new home. Right across the street is the Bill White Chevy residential conversion being done with city housing money.
Scoff all you want but the people and entities behind all of this are Kaiser, OU, TU, the city, the collective congregation of All Souls and Elliott Nelson. This is very different from the past projects proposed by people with no money and no track records of success. This time there is all sorts of political power, plenty of experience and lots of money.
Quote from: DTowner on June 15, 2012, 04:23:39 PM
Now I'm really confused. You say that the East End should not be a subsidized playground for the few, but then you advocate a publically funded single purpose soccer stadium. You are advocating for the exact thing you claim to oppose. As noted in many posts, almost none of the projects currently planned for the East End are subsidized. Others have addressed your other points.
The soccer stadium would have been used for high school football, concerts, etc... using your logic, the downtown ballpark is a publicly funded single purpose stadium.
Are the "3-4 housing developments" mentioned by Swake being subsidized by state and local funds or not?
What I read a few weeks ago was that these developments would be in jeopardy if they didn't get state funds usually reserved for areas deemed historical.
I live in a historical area. The East Village is NOT a historical area.
Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, and Brady Heights are historical neighborhoods.
The East End is not.
Cutting tax credits could hurt Oklahoma preservation ... - Tulsa World 2/16/12
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120216_16_A1_CUTLIN982414
Janet Pearson: State tax-cut effort raising more concerns | Tulsa World 3/25/12
http://www.tulsaworld.com/site/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleid=20120325_211_G1_CUTLIN572450&PrintComments=1
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 15, 2012, 05:06:39 PM
The soccer stadium would have been used for high school football, concerts, etc... using your logic, the downtown ballpark was a publicly funded single purpose stadium.
Are the "3-4 housing developments" mentioned by Swake being subsidized by state and local funds or not?
What I read a few weeks ago was that these developments would be in jeopardy if they didn't get state funds usually reserved for areas deemed historical.
I live in a historical area. The East Village is NOT a historical area.
Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, and Brady Heights are historical neighborhoods.
The East End is not.
Cutting tax credits could hurt Oklahoma preservation ... - Tulsa World 2/16/12
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120216_16_A1_CUTLIN982414
Janet Pearson: State tax-cut effort raising more concerns | Tulsa World 3/25/12
http://www.tulsaworld.com/site/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleid=20120325_211_G1_CUTLIN572450&PrintComments=1
To my knowledge the only one getting any kind of public money is the Bill White Chevy site, and that's just a loan.
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on June 15, 2012, 05:06:39 PM
The soccer stadium would have been used for high school football, concerts, etc... using your logic, the downtown ballpark is a publicly funded single purpose stadium.
Are the "3-4 housing developments" mentioned by Swake being subsidized by state and local funds or not?
What I read a few weeks ago was that these developments would be in jeopardy if they didn't get state funds usually reserved for areas deemed historical.
I live in a historical area. The East Village is NOT a historical area.
Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, and Brady Heights are historical neighborhoods.
The East End is not.
Cutting tax credits could hurt Oklahoma preservation ... - Tulsa World 2/16/12
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120216_16_A1_CUTLIN982414
Janet Pearson: State tax-cut effort raising more concerns | Tulsa World 3/25/12
http://www.tulsaworld.com/site/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleid=20120325_211_G1_CUTLIN572450&PrintComments=1
Why do you keep bringing up the historic area thing? I don't think anyone really cares and there isn't much there to care about anyway (other than perhaps the Bill White Chevrolet building and the other ones on that block that I happen to like). Most of whats going to happen there is new stuff going in.
I believe historical designation should be reserved for historically significant buildings, and not used as an excuse to fund or prop up expensive rehabs of buildings with little/no historic value... http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/lawmakers-target-historic-tax-credit-programs
I'm not rooting for failure, but am healthily skeptical... when Artist gives the elitist cold shoulder (who says "Egads" anymore?) by deriding the idea that "downtowns inside the IDL are supposed to be business districts," he is missing my intended point that Tulsa's downtown, first and foremost, has been and will be a business area... who's to say, in the next twenty to thirty years, that today's conventional TulsaNow Forum wisdom of building walkable urban neighborhoods inside the IDL won't turn out to create it's own set of problems and blight.... btw, I wasn't the one who once described the IDL as a "noose" that's strangles a downtown, that would be Bing Thom (and I believe he was paid around $10mil for that advice)... http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pressroom/fhwa1059.htm
Tulsa's skyline is nice to look at from at distance.... but with buildings too tall to sustain long-term, paired up with patches of asphalt that make more financial sense as surface parking over new construction... hopefully that can and will change for the better...
Once again, who wins? who loses? who pays? These aren't unreasonable questions. Is there a TIF district being created? As laudable as it is for All Souls Unitarian to want to re-locate downtown, I have yet to talk to anyone who thinks we have too few churches downtown.... Owen Park has some nice historic homes, but others are boarded up, some abandoned, and some can only be described as "slumlord material." Take that problem and triple it for Crosbie Heights...
Swake, I find it hard to believe that
"the only one getting any kind of public money is the Bill White Chevy site, and that's just a loan."Especially after reading this:
On The VergeRevitalization efforts have already transformed downtown Tulsa into a vibrant urban core, and much more is on the way. April 2012 http://www.okmag.com/April-2012/On-The-Verge/
QuoteWhat is the secret to a successful revitalization? According to Elliot Nelson, owner of The McNellie's Group, whose successful restaurants and other venues have changed the landscape of the Blue Dome District, it's a combination of public and private partnership.
"Revitalization cannot solely be dependent on private dollars," Nelson says. "It has to be a partnership between the city and the private sector. We have come a long way, but we still have a ways to go to ensure continued growth."
You seem to want everything done NOW. But, then, you don't want anything done downtown without something being done about Crosbie Heights and Owen Park. Things take time. Anything worth having is worth waiting for.
You've just become so overly pessimistic and at times rude that it's no fun to read what you have to bring to the table. Providing a counter argument is one thing, but you just keep coming back with the same stuff. Who has even said that the East End is historical?
Quote from: ZYX on June 21, 2012, 01:02:38 AM
You seem to want everything done NOW. But, then, you don't want anything done downtown without something being done about Crosbie Heights and Owen Park. Things take time. Anything worth having is worth waiting for.
You've just become so overly pessimistic and at times rude that it's no fun to read what you have to bring to the table. Providing a counter argument is one thing, but you just keep coming back with the same stuff. Who has even said that the East End is historical?
This is what you said a couple of pages ago:
"However, I disagree with putting up "good enough." Yeah, I'd rather just wait til perfect comes around instead of putting up something that's just better than what's there now.""I see a lot of potential in this area. I think sooner, rather than later, we will see a huge change come to this side of downtown."This is what Swake has said:
"Two years from now the East End will look very different. There's really no room for a stadium already." And this is what I said:
"If I waited until "perfect" came along, I never would have moved back to Tulsa in the first place.""So, are we going to play a shell game by subsidizing risk with taxpayer money in a sparse area whose mid-century auto repair buildings have less historical significance than my 1928 craftsman bungalow in Owen Park?..... really?""This thread was to point out that a downtown soccer stadium could have worked here...."What's being proposed in the area, to my knowledge, is hardly what one would consider "perfect."
Is it rude to ask who stands to benefit from tax credits and special loans that subsidize the risk involved?
Because those questions have been asked on this same forum before, and people's motives and political alliances were scrutinized... I remember the general atmosphere of rudeness anytime something was proposed by former mayor Bill LaFortune...
Is it rude to suggest that the sports stadium/arena as anchor + mixed use retail/residential for this area would have been superior to spur development over yet another downtown church?
Because it wasn't that long ago, back when I was still living in Chicago, that posters on this same forum characterized this area as a potential neighborhood with valuable historic buildings that only needed revitalization-- acting like NIMBYs for an area in which they don't live....
Will the Bill White "lofts" be worth the expense? And who's paying for the park? Will this steal focus from efforts to revitalize the Pearl District?
You may not like me harping on the "historical," but that's been part of the salespitch from the very beginning...
Like this....
(http://media.nola.com/business_impact/photo/9465265-large.jpg)
http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2011/04/apartment_conversion_under_way.html
QuoteLocal businessman and investor Kevin Kelly bought the Blue Plate site from Reily in 2007 for $1.875 million. In early 2010, he sold it to Hernandez and HRI for $3.3 million.
Hernandez had taken the lead in trying to redevelop the building, winning City Planning Commission and City Council approval in late 2008 to turn it into 72 mixed-income apartments. She said then she hoped to start construction in mid-2009 and finish the conversion a year later.
But Hernandez, a former HRI executive, had trouble finding the financing she needed, and she eventually teamed up with her former company on a plan to focus the project on artists. HRI has extensive experience in developing artists' housing, such as the 37-unit Bywater Art Lofts on Dauphine Street.
About 70 percent of the apartments will be set aside for low-income tenants.
The city has provided $3.5 million of the total budget, with the rest coming from bonds, tax credits and bank loans.
The State Bond Commission briefly stalled the project in November when it failed to approve a plan for the state Office of Community Development to put up about $9 million, but a month later it authorized issuance of up to $15 million in Louisiana Housing Finance Agency bonds.
Although the approval Hernandez obtained from the city in 2008 was good for only two years, she said she has been granted an extension.
This thread is just confusing me. I do see the same old Tulsa mentalities at play here that have kept the city stagnant and near declinine stage for my whole tenure here: "We need to give it time, two years, three years it will all look different", "We need to not just settle. Better to get quality development that may take longer etc.", and "Demand for affordable housing downtown is growing". Yet, after 30years we continue to offer nothing much more than expensive condo's, mass entertainment venues, churches, declining office buildings and lots of parking lots. That is frustrating when other cities seem to be striking out into new directions, some failing, some succeeding, but learning and improving.
I know downtown is scads better than it was 20 years ago but the pace is agonizing and Tulsa outside of downtown is starting to visibly age. To me some reality coaching is necessary. The area north of 6th street from NOrdam to Bill White is not walkable by any means. It is vintage urban renewal looking. Its potential as housing to me is weak. I don't know its best use and you guys are deep into it but I am a potential resident and I don't see anything that appeals to me there. The Bill White building is interesting to look at but was built as a car dealership. It is not nice inside and has no real character left to it. Good luck with that one. We took better, more historical buildings than that, notably the Rail Depot and made them even less interesting. To me that area will be better used for other uses with some kind of anchor attraction.
I feel for the Owen Park and Crosbie areas. I also have some affection for the areas just east of downtown radiating out from Admiral and Peoria. These are areas that should be gentrifying, re-building with multi-family, parks, etc. They are within trolley distance from downtown, hospitals, and municipal functions. They should be developing along with or in front of East Village. Instead, I see burned out houses, empty lots, poor infrastructure and increasing graffiti.
If we're not careful and quick to embrace new ideas for these area we may find that the downtown window is closing.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 21, 2012, 10:26:29 AM
This thread is just confusing me. I do see the same old Tulsa mentalities at play here that have kept the city stagnant and near declinine stage for my whole tenure here: "We need to give it time, two years, three years it will all look different", "We need to not just settle. Better to get quality development that may take longer etc.", and "Demand for affordable housing downtown is growing". Yet, after 30years we continue to offer nothing much more than expensive condo's, mass entertainment venues, churches, declining office buildings and lots of parking lots. That is frustrating when other cities seem to be striking out into new directions, some failing, some succeeding, but learning and improving.
I know downtown is scads better than it was 20 years ago but the pace is agonizing and Tulsa outside of downtown is starting to visibly age. To me some reality coaching is necessary. The area north of 6th street from NOrdam to Bill White is not walkable by any means. It is vintage urban renewal looking. Its potential as housing to me is weak. I don't know its best use and you guys are deep into it but I am a potential resident and I don't see anything that appeals to me there. The Bill White building is interesting to look at but was built as a car dealership. It is not nice inside and has no real character left to it. Good luck with that one. We took better, more historical buildings than that, notably the Rail Depot and made them even less interesting. To me that area will be better used for other uses with some kind of anchor attraction.
I feel for the Owen Park and Crosbie areas. I also have some affection for the areas just east of downtown radiating out from Admiral and Peoria. These are areas that should be gentrifying, re-building with multi-family, parks, etc. They are within trolley distance from downtown, hospitals, and municipal functions. They should be developing along with or in front of East Village. Instead, I see burned out houses, empty lots, poor infrastructure and increasing graffiti.
If we're not careful and quick to embrace new ideas for these area we may find that the downtown window is closing.
I understand your sentiment, however, I just don't see how you can believe that the rebuilding of downtown is going at a slow pace. How much faster should it be? There are so many projects recently completed, under construction and planned. Saying that downtown will look much different in two to three years is not just blind speculation, it will look different. Saying that it won't is just ignoring the current momentum.
And what do you mean by "we may find that the downtown window is closing?" Do you think that the renewed interest in downtown is just a fad? I don't. I think this is going to become the new normal. We can't sustain our current growth pattern forever, and I think close quarter living is only going to become increasingly popular. That's not to say that suburbs will soon meet their demise, as they will always exist and do serve a valuable purpose, I just think that more and more people will continue to live closer to the city center, and that America's cities will start to much more closely resemble those of Europe.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 21, 2012, 10:26:29 AM
If we're not careful and quick to embrace new ideas for these area we may find that the downtown window is closing.
New Ideas like another stadium? We have two new ones already.
Better pay mind to TTC posts and not the ones re churches
Quote from: ZYX on June 21, 2012, 12:03:04 PM
I understand your sentiment, however, I just don't see how you can believe that the rebuilding of downtown is going at a slow pace. How much faster should it be? There are so many projects recently completed, under construction and planned. Saying that downtown will look much different in two to three years is not just blind speculation, it will look different. Saying that it won't is just ignoring the current momentum. True enough but I've been hearing this chant for decades. Its only the last few years that anything has happened and both the arena and the stadium were fraught with controversy. Maybe its just a mental impression that the controversy left. I'm not so impressed anymore with planned projects having seen so many floated out as trial balloons to sniff out investment money.
And what do you mean by "we may find that the downtown window is closing?" Do you think that the renewed interest in downtown is just a fad? I don't. I think this is going to become the new normal. We can't sustain our current growth pattern forever, and I think close quarter living is only going to become increasingly popular. That's not to say that suburbs will soon meet their demise, as they will always exist and do serve a valuable purpose, I just think that more and more people will continue to live closer to the city center, and that America's cities will start to much more closely resemble those of Europe.Not a fad but not going to be the normal either. The real growth is going to be in the pre-expansion suburbs inside 44, Crosstown, 169 and maybe as far north as hwy 10. There is no real reason to live downtown for most people. It will remain a fun place to visit as long as the businesses survive but I think the cities you dream about have different personalities. There is no inherent reason for living near high rise office buildings unless the economics work for you. What is the % of employment that resides there? The lag in services, shopping, entertainment and food that the masses crave will hold them from committing. Then the higher cost of housing downtown will entice them into the nearby older neigborhoods looking for bargains that are still near the CBD.Bargains that they can modify to fit their lifestyle. Then mini-cbd's will pop up in places like Whittier Square or Crystal City. We already see that on 15th, Pearl, Promenade, Ranch Acres, 21st & Yale. Another good example is 18th and Boston (office buildings, bars, restaurants, banking, a newly planned shopping center surrounded by a mixed bag of income and education.) For downtown, that leaves the innovators, the avante gaurde,the creative class and the outliers to committ.
If we will open ourselves to ideas like real trolleys, forms based zoning etc. and build a strong base of these mini-cbd's around the downtown its place will be secured. Otherwise I fear the fickle finger of fate will waggle disapprovingly. ;)
Quote from: AquaMan on June 21, 2012, 02:25:15 PM
I understand your sentiment, however, I just don't see how you can believe that the rebuilding of downtown is going at a slow pace. How much faster should it be? There are so many projects recently completed, under construction and planned. Saying that downtown will look much different in two to three years is not just blind speculation, it will look different. Saying that it won't is just ignoring the current momentum.
True enough but I've been hearing this chant for decades. Its only the last few years that anything has happened and both the arena and the stadium were fraught with controversy. Maybe its just a mental impression that the controversy left. I'm not so impressed anymore with planned projects having seen so many floated out as trial balloons to sniff out investment money.
And what do you mean by "we may find that the downtown window is closing?" Do you think that the renewed interest in downtown is just a fad? I don't. I think this is going to become the new normal. We can't sustain our current growth pattern forever, and I think close quarter living is only going to become increasingly popular. That's not to say that suburbs will soon meet their demise, as they will always exist and do serve a valuable purpose, I just think that more and more people will continue to live closer to the city center, and that America's cities will start to much more closely resemble those of Europe.
Not a fad but not going to be the normal either. The real growth is going to be in the pre-expansion suburbs inside 44, Crosstown, 169 and maybe as far north as hwy 10. There is no real reason to live downtown for most people. It will remain a fun place to visit as long as the businesses survive but I think the cities you dream about have different personalities. There is no inherent reason for living near high rise office buildings unless the economics work for you. What is the % of employment that resides there? The lag in services, shopping, entertainment and food that the masses crave will hold them from committing. Then the higher cost of housing downtown will entice them into the nearby older neigborhoods looking for bargains that are still near the CBD.Bargains that they can modify to fit their lifestyle. Then mini-cbd's will pop up in places like Whittier Square or Crystal City. We already see that on 15th, Pearl, Promenade, Ranch Acres, 21st & Yale. Another good example is 18th and Boston (office buildings, bars, restaurants, banking, a newly planned shopping center surrounded by a mixed bag of income and education.) For downtown, that leaves the innovators, the avante gaurde,the creative class and the outliers to committ.
If we will open ourselves to ideas like real trolleys, forms based zoning etc. and build a strong base of these mini-cbd's around the downtown its place will be secured. Otherwise I fear the fickle finger of fate will waggle disapprovingly. ;)
It's almost as if you've missed most of the development threads on here. We have grocery markets opening, more housing being built, no shortage of restaurants or recreational activities, and more people are looking at moving businesses large and small downtown. Several have added second or third stores downtown. In ten years downtown Tulsa will be every bit as vibrant as it was in the 1950's if not sooner. It's rocking along at lightning speed pace if you consider the state of the national economy since 2008. I've driven through the Brady district and counted no less than seven cranes in the air at one time before.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 21, 2012, 02:31:30 PM
It's rocking along at lightning speed pace if you consider the state of the national economy since 2008.
I think you meant to say thank you President Obama.
You're welcome.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 21, 2012, 02:33:26 PM
I think you meant to say thank you President Obama.
You're welcome.
Is he building all this cool stuff?
Hey everyone, we got OUR Obama money!!!
Thank you Mr. President!!
Quote from: swake on June 21, 2012, 12:40:15 PM
New Ideas like another stadium? We have two new ones already.
I drifted from the stadium in particular to include a more general acceptance of differing ideas for the downtown area. However, I don't think a multi use stadium downtown, especially in the area just north of 6th should be considered unfeasible. Its unfeasible given the constraints that were offered by the county.
Now you will be an Obama spooner.
QuoteTrue enough but I've been hearing this chant for decades. Its only the last few years that anything has happened and both the arena and the stadium were fraught with controversy. Maybe its just a mental impression that the controversy left. I'm not so impressed anymore with planned projects having seen so many floated out as trial balloons to sniff out investment money.
While there have been many such proposals, there have also been MANY that have gone all the way through. There are projects happening all over downtown. I think the Brady streetscaping, once it gets going, will really make at least that area of downtown feel a lot more "clean and "improved."
I know I haven't been around to hear everyone else say things similar to this, but I have a feeling that this time it's different.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 21, 2012, 02:31:30 PM
It's almost as if you've missed most of the development threads on here. We have grocery markets opening, more housing being built, no shortage of restaurants or recreational activities, and more people are looking at moving businesses large and small downtown. Several have added second or third stores downtown. In ten years downtown Tulsa will be every bit as vibrant as it was in the 1950's if not sooner. It's rocking along at lightning speed pace if you consider the state of the national economy since 2008. I've driven through the Brady district and counted no less than seven cranes in the air at one time before.
When I see the level of grocery shopping available outside the CBD or even a Whole Foods, then I would agree. When I see housing that fits the demographic and its income in Tulsa I would agree. Restaurants come and go but when I see a collection to rival the mass fare on 71st east of Woodland, then ok. When I see an oil company committ to downtown like Devon did, well ok. When i see the flag ship retail store locate downtown with satellites in the burbs, maybe.
Until that time I think some are confusing downtown boosterism with what a vibrant population desires. Its cool, its growing but it will never be the vibrant place it was in the 1950's nor do I think we could tolerate that.
Just think for a moment and look around at who is partying, shopping and working downtown. They are younger than you and I and always will be. They are building families, careers and assets that require schools, services, and infrastructure. When faced with that reality, they will bolt to the areas that fit those needs with perhaps more solid resale potential. Would you give up your mid century modern with your own driveway, small yard, garden, nearby shopping, parks, schools and multiple outlets for beer and liquour purchases to live the downtown experience? Then think of yourself in 10 years which is where I am now. It looks even less attractive to grow old in.
It has its place but it seems unlikely to become the norm. A hub with radiating spokes of supportive hoods seems more likely. Of course, just my opinion.
Quote from: ZYX on June 21, 2012, 02:40:45 PM
While there have been many such proposals, there have also been MANY that have gone all the way through. There are projects happening all over downtown. I think the Brady streetscaping, once it gets going, will really make at least that area of downtown feel a lot more "clean and "improved."
I know I haven't been around to hear everyone else say things similar to this, but I have a feeling that this time it's different.
I truly miss that feeling, and I not only secretly hope that I am wrong, but that you don't lose that feeling. I don't want to sound melancholy about the downtown. I love it. I wish I could have been younger to enjoy it. But I'm slowly recognizing that its the heart of the animal, not the body.
The one I am afraid of, the one that the clown referenced is that damn two story Wal-Mart with a parking garage proposal that was thankfully killed back in '07 when the economy started to go south. I would not be shocked to hear that plan got dusted off.
I hope the clown is talking out his a$$ again, but I'm not sure.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 21, 2012, 02:53:20 PM
When I see the level of grocery shopping available outside the CBD or even a Whole Foods, then I would agree. When I see housing that fits the demographic and its income in Tulsa I would agree. Restaurants come and go but when I see a collection to rival the mass fare on 71st east of Woodland, then ok. When I see an oil company committ to downtown like Devon did, well ok. When i see the flag ship retail store locate downtown with satellites in the burbs, maybe.
Until that time I think some are confusing downtown boosterism with what a vibrant population desires. Its cool, its growing but it will never be the vibrant place it was in the 1950's nor do I think we could tolerate that.
Just think for a moment and look around at who is partying, shopping and working downtown. They are younger than you and I and always will be. They are building families, careers and assets that require schools, services, and infrastructure. When faced with that reality, they will bolt to the areas that fit those needs with perhaps more solid resale potential. Would you give up your mid century modern with your own driveway, small yard, garden, nearby shopping, parks, schools and multiple outlets for beer and liquour purchases to live the downtown experience? Then think of yourself in 10 years which is where I am now. It looks even less attractive to grow old in.
It has its place but it seems unlikely to become the norm. A hub with radiating spokes of supportive hoods seems more likely. Of course, just my opinion.
I'm still puzzled by your pessimism. I really do think you will be surprised at how different and permanent the repopulation of downtown will be in 10 years.
Restaurants don't appear to be coming and going. Downtown is experiencing a very low restaurant turn-over rate, the reason for that stability is due in part to entrepreneurs like Elliot Nelson who has multiple locations there and really knows what he's doing but mainly because there's a great demand for dining and a place to have a drink in downtown even on nights where the ballpark and the BOK are dark. Another reason is people with a vision who do a lot to market downtown to the masses like Libby Auld, Mary Beth Babcock, Blake Ewing, and Nelson.
Successful retailers like Fleet Feet and Lee's moving downtown was a huge sign of confidence in downtown. Both stores seem to be getting plenty of business from people who live or work in the CBD and outside it.
As far as large oil companies, I don't think you could have a much bigger presence in downtown than Williams or Oneok. I believe Samson has a significant presence there as well. Cimmarex is building a new tower across from the BOK with additional mixed use space. I'd say that's serious commitment to the area on the part of the oil and gas companies. IBM has a lot of space downtown as well.
As the residential population increases, I suspect you will see a larger grocery come into the downtown area.
Not all younger people have children and many are waiting until their 30's to get married. If they move to the suburbs, there's more who will move in and take their place. I do happen to see many people my own age and older eating and playing downtown. Personally, I enjoy my little slice of Lordondale paradise and love that downtown is only a 30 minute bike ride away or a five minute drive if I hop on the BA (of course when they aren't working on the BA *cough*).
We have no plans to retire in Tulsa but if Mrs. C and I ever did decide to downsize and get rid of a yard, I'd have to consider a condo either downtown or near downtown by the river.
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
;)
Quote from: swake on June 21, 2012, 12:40:15 PM
New Ideas like another stadium? We have two new ones already.
After the construction of the soccer specific stadium featured in the first post on this thread, Houston now has four large sports venues, all downtown....
1. BBVA Compass Stadium - Opened: May 12, 2012
2. Toyota Center - Opened: Dec 6, 2003
3. Reliant Stadium - Opened: Aug 24, 2002
4. Minute Maid Park - Opened: Mar 30, 2000
The Hartford Building is on 1st & Greenwood.
All Souls will be built between Kenosha & Frankfort Ave on 6th & 7th St.
Tulsa Opera is moving to the old Fire Station on 4th St (the only bid for the property)... http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/opera-is-seen-as-key-player-in-redevelopment-of-east-village
Where is the $$$ coming from for Land Legacy Park? The church? The opera company? The city? Vision2025? KFF?
Cuz it ain't gonna come cheap....
And what sort of "public/private partnership" is going to be in the works for future new construction?
Quote from: AquaMan on June 21, 2012, 02:53:20 PMJust think for a moment and look around at who is partying, shopping and working downtown. They are younger than you and I and always will be. They are building families, careers and assets that require schools, services, and infrastructure. When faced with that reality, they will bolt to the areas that fit those needs with perhaps more solid resale potential. Would you give up your mid century modern with your own driveway, small yard, garden, nearby shopping, parks, schools and multiple outlets for beer and liquour purchases to live the downtown experience? Then think of yourself in 10 years which is where I am now. It looks even less attractive to grow old in.
It has its place but it seems unlikely to become the norm. A hub with radiating spokes of supportive hoods seems more likely. Of course, just my opinion.
+1
Brady District development makes sense, it's been the traditional arts district of Tulsa-- IMO, Tulsa Opera should have it's offices and rehearsal space there... future Pearl District development makes sense, as there are a few blocks of older buildings with full potential for neighborhood... a Blue Dome entertainment district makes sense... but IMO, this (East End/East Village south of 3rd St) doesn't... too much asphalt, too little urban density, too haphazard-- what downtown church construction projects have inspired people to live downtown?... and you'd think the two Central Park Condo buildings on 7th and Denver would provide for more than enough urban density to support a supermarket, yet the one across the street has been closed for well over a decade...
Quote from: Conan71 on June 21, 2012, 03:13:36 PM
I'm still puzzled by your pessimism. I really do think you will be surprised at how different and permanent the repopulation of downtown will be in 10 years.
Restaurants don't appear to be coming and going. Downtown is experiencing a very low restaurant turn-over rate, the reason for that stability is due in part to entrepreneurs like Elliot Nelson who has multiple locations there and really knows what he's doing but mainly because there's a great demand for dining and a place to have a drink in downtown even on nights where the ballpark and the BOK are dark. Another reason is people with a vision who do a lot to market downtown to the masses like Libby Auld, Mary Beth Babcock, Blake Ewing, and Nelson.
Successful retailers like Fleet Feet and Lee's moving downtown was a huge sign of confidence in downtown. Both stores seem to be getting plenty of business from people who live or work in the CBD and outside it.
As far as large oil companies, I don't think you could have a much bigger presence in downtown than Williams or Oneok. I believe Samson has a significant presence there as well. Cimmarex is building a new tower across from the BOK with additional mixed use space. I'd say that's serious commitment to the area on the part of the oil and gas companies. IBM has a lot of space downtown as well.
As the residential population increases, I suspect you will see a larger grocery come into the downtown area.
Not all younger people have children and many are waiting until their 30's to get married. If they move to the suburbs, there's more who will move in and take their place. I do happen to see many people my own age and older eating and playing downtown. Personally, I enjoy my little slice of Lordondale paradise and love that downtown is only a 30 minute bike ride away or a five minute drive if I hop on the BA (of course when they aren't working on the BA *cough*).
We have no plans to retire in Tulsa but if Mrs. C and I ever did decide to downsize and get rid of a yard, I'd have to consider a condo either downtown or near downtown by the river.
No, no, no. Its not pessimism, its a reconstructing of my perspective. Say that three times quickly, eh? I'm proud of downtown and love visiting.
Let me put it a different way that is based on observation. My neighbor's son just graduated from TU and got a job right in the downtown area. Ground zero. He and his fiance rented space in the nearby hypo-dermic needle less than a mile away. He is at best 24. It makes sense for them to live there and enjoy downtown. My son did the same thing in OKC when he graduated. Moved to a chic apartment complex downtown, partied there, was employed there, met the woman of his dreams there, married and ....moved to a nearby chic neighborhood of old homes. Fixed the house up, wife got pregnant and they moved to a better school district halfway between Norman and downtown OKC where their respective jobs are. That will probably lead to a decade of suburban living. I expect my neighbor's kid to follow a similar path. I bet you followed a similar path.
Now the next generations are not as large as ours. Boomers may find condo living downtown suitable for their older age living but they bring with them their boomer lifestyles which, lets face it, are no longer cool. It could be that we fast forward ten years to a downtown filled with churches, doggie parks, coffee shops, and fat tired old people milling around aimlessly. :D Goodbye Tulsa Tough, hello Tulsa Soft. Meanwhile that younger group only hung around for a few years then followed the path my son and neighbor did.
Look around downtown with that perspective and see if a different future might emerge when the money does the same thing.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 21, 2012, 03:36:31 PM
No, no, no. Its not pessimism, its a reconstructing of my perspective. Say that three times quickly, eh? I'm proud of downtown and love visiting.
Let me put it a different way that is based on observation. My neighbor's son just graduated from TU and got a job right in the downtown area. Ground zero. He and his fiance rented space in the nearby hypo-dermic needle less than a mile away. He is at best 24. It makes sense for them to live there and enjoy downtown. My son did the same thing in OKC when he graduated. Moved to a chic apartment complex downtown, partied there, was employed there, met the woman of his dreams there, married and ....moved to a nearby chic neighborhood of old homes. Fixed the house up, wife got pregnant and they moved to a better school district halfway between Norman and downtown OKC where their respective jobs are. That will probably lead to a decade of suburban living. I expect my neighbor's kid to follow a similar path. I bet you followed a similar path.
Now the next generations are not as large as ours. Boomers may find condo living downtown suitable for their older age living but they bring with them their boomer lifestyles which, lets face it, are no longer cool. It could be that we fast forward ten years to a downtown filled with churches, doggie parks, coffee shops, and fat tired old people milling around aimlessly. :D Goodbye Tulsa Tough, hello Tulsa Soft. Meanwhile that younger group only hung around for a few years then followed the path my son and neighbor did.
Look around downtown with that perspective and see if a different future might emerge when the money does the same thing.
Population is not declining and Gen Y is bigger than the boomers
Quote from: swake on June 21, 2012, 03:54:05 PM
Population is not declining and Gen Y is bigger than the boomers
Refresh my Time magazine cover story memory. What span is Gen Y and what exactly are their numbers? I thought that the baby boom was a much bigger blip than any other generation unless you widen the parameters. Unless you mean that the Y's outnumber the remaining number of boomers.
Also, some patterns seem to repeat. My example spanned from a 24 year old to a 30yr old but closely paralleled my own experience from over 30 yrs earlier when I worked downtown, lived at Place One then moved to the burbs, then back to the old town.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 21, 2012, 02:38:03 PM
I drifted from the stadium in particular to include a more general acceptance of differing ideas for the downtown area. However, I don't think a multi use stadium downtown, especially in the area just north of 6th should be considered unfeasible. Its unfeasible given the constraints that were offered by the county.
Just to clarify.... the city has traditionally been supportive of the prospects for a stadium (baseball or soccer) in the East Village/East End.
The constraints offered by the county were regarding the prospects of pro soccer being played at the fairgrounds.
Quote from: swake on June 21, 2012, 03:10:41 PM
The one I am afraid of, the one that the clown referenced is that damn two story Wal-Mart with a parking garage proposal that was thankfully killed back in '07 when the economy started to go south. I would not be shocked to hear that plan got dusted off.
I hope the clown is talking out his a$$ again, but I'm not sure.
The opening of an urban two-story Wal-Mart would save me trips to the perpetually busy Wal-Mart in Sand Springs.
Maybe if the big box were a Target? or Jamie Jamison's fav?.... Tesco?.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesco
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Tesco_Kingston_Park.jpg/800px-Tesco_Kingston_Park.jpg)
Quote from: swake on June 21, 2012, 03:54:05 PM
Population is not declining and Gen Y is bigger than the boomers
Can't find anything to support those statements. Wiki references a graph that shows not only a larger time span for Boomers and a much higher birth rate than the Y gen but also shows that the birth rate has trended downwards since 1962. Its latest point was 2009 which showed a birth rate of about 1/3 less than the lowest point of the baby boom generation.
Other stats also show that the Boomers are still accounting for huge disparities in buying power in relation to the following generations (Baby Boomers control over 80% of personal financial assets and more than 50% of discretionary spending power. They are responsible for more than half of all consumer spending, buy 77% of all prescription drugs, 61% of OTC medication and 80% of all leisure travel.) However, the Y gen is the fastest growing in purchasing power being at the peak of their careers.
Given those figures it isn't hard to understand why now, as they start to retire, suffer age discrimination in the workplace and begin to cash in investments, that the economy is suffering even more than the usual business cycle might have predicted. (Of course, that would be Obama's fault according to the locals).
Quote from: AquaMan on June 21, 2012, 03:36:31 PM
Let me put it a different way that is based on observation. My neighbor's son just graduated from TU and got a job right in the downtown area. Ground zero. He and his fiance rented space in the nearby hypo-dermic needle less than a mile away. He is at best 24. It makes sense for them to live there and enjoy downtown. My son did the same thing in OKC when he graduated. Moved to a chic apartment complex downtown, partied there, was employed there, met the woman of his dreams there, married and ....moved to a nearby chic neighborhood of old homes. Fixed the house up, wife got pregnant and they moved to a better school district halfway between Norman and downtown OKC where their respective jobs are. That will probably lead to a decade of suburban living. I expect my neighbor's kid to follow a similar path. I bet you followed a similar path.
Isn't the first part of this statement exactly what Tulsa's been missing for several decades - a vibrant downtown that can help keep its young people here and attract more?
Downtown living will never appeal to everyone and yes, many of those young hipsters attracted to it now may cast an eye to near neighborhoods, midtown or even (shutter) out south once they start popping out little hipsters of their own. If we are vibrant and growing economically and in populations, that will take care of itself.
Quote from: DTowner on June 22, 2012, 02:57:30 PM
Isn't the first part of this statement exactly what Tulsa's been missing for several decades - a vibrant downtown that can help keep its young people here and attract more?
Downtown living will never appeal to everyone and yes, many of those young hipsters attracted to it now may cast an eye to near neighborhoods, midtown or even (shutter) out south once they start popping out little hipsters of their own. If we are vibrant and growing economically and in populations, that will take care of itself.
That was the exact point I was trying to make a post or two back. So what if they grow up and move to the suburbs? There will be another young hipster to move into the vacated property downtown.
Quote from: DTowner on June 22, 2012, 02:57:30 PM
Isn't the first part of this statement exactly what Tulsa's been missing for several decades - a vibrant downtown that can help keep its young people here and attract more?
Downtown living will never appeal to everyone and yes, many of those young hipsters attracted to it now may cast an eye to near neighborhoods, midtown or even (shutter) out south once they start popping out little hipsters of their own. If we are vibrant and growing economically and in populations, that will take care of itself.
I think it's also important to point out that
marriage doesn't mean
suburbs, and that not everyone is going to or wants to get married. Are there lots in my generation putting off marriage longer than previous generations? Yes. But there are also a lot of people who never intend to get married. And in either case, there will still be people who want to live downtown, and there will still be people who want to live in the suburbs or in the country.
Well then I'm way off base. Check back in 10-20 years and we'll see whose ambling on the streets and at what time of day!
Meanwhile, consider my scenario and lay your bets. I'm surmising that no matter how vibrant downtown is, it still lacks the fundamentals that maturing young people desire and empty nesters rely on. We aren't going to be a New York or Minneapolis or San Francisco, ever. Those vibrancies keep large numbers of young people longer and even entice empty nesters with disposable income and cultured tastes. That means having a quality inner city daycare, grade school and possibly middle school nearby. That means having the same, or better, shopping and entertainment choices as the nearby midtown and outlying burbs. I don't see those things on the horizon in downtown Tulsa. I do see them extant or emerging in the nearby older burbs. The huge dominance of churches downtown seems to be indicative of the confusion as to just what is going on down here. They all have a strong youth slant to them with gymnasiums, scouting programs, child care and outreach, yet, few of them seem to live nearby.
I have always felt that downtown is too busy with unsubstantiated concepts of who will actually be drawn there and why. Without a serious change in transportation (trolleys, circulators, whatever), a major attraction (identified with our city alone) and a large player like Target, Costco, etc. to provide the same convenience as outlying areas where these kids grew up you will find them migrating outward. Then they'll be visiting the bars, restaurants, baseball and theatre on Friday/Saturday night that are only available downtown and church on Sunday, then back out to the mini-burbs or suburbs.
That is not necessarily a bad thing. What I'm saying is this a natural progression and fighting it isn't wise. We aren't going to draw the masses that would make the vibrancy of the 1950's by providing more housing unless its very affordable. Downtown has some unique retailers, restaurants and entertainment that will always be a draw. With the downtown as a hub, strongly connected to mini-cbd's surrounding it they both are more secure.