Three people were killed and another two were critically injured in several shootings early Friday morning, Tulsa police said.
Police are still trying to determine the circumstances surrounding the incidents but don't believe the victims knew each other.
Officers found Dannaer Fields, 49, lying in a yard with a gunshot wound shortly after 1 a.m. in the 1000 block of East 51st Place North, police said. Fields later died at St. John Medical Center.
Three minutes later, police found two men with apparent gunshot wounds in another yard two blocks to the east. The men were taken to St. John Medical Center and St. Francis Hospital in critical condition but were expected to survive, police said. They have not been identified.
Officers then found Bobby Clark, 54, in the street with a gunshot wound about 1:50 a.m. in the 300 block of West 63rd Street North. Clark later died at Hillcrest Medical Center.
About 8:30 a.m., officers received a call of a body in the 800 block of East 36th Street North, said Capt. Steve Odom. Police discovered a man later identified as William Allen, 31, lying in the yard of Jack's Memory Chapel with a gunshot wound to the chest, Odom said. Allen was pronounced dead at the scene.
Police are looking for a white pickup truck that may have been in the area when the shootings occurred, Walker said. No further descriptions were available.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/specialprojects/news/crimewatch/article.aspx?subjectid=450&articleid=20120406_450_0_Twopeo765966
Sad! Whoever is doing this must be watching national news and figures they can get away with it.
White shooter, five black victims. Where are $harpton and Jack$on?
A guy driving around shooting pedestrians?
Very scary.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on April 07, 2012, 11:01:47 AM
A guy driving around shooting pedestrians?
Very scary.
Guess it's time for me to clean the Bersa again....
Quote from: Conan71 on April 07, 2012, 10:58:26 AM
White shooter, five black victims. Where are $harpton and Jack$on?
If TPD were to mishandle the case, which the detective division will probably not do, and word got out about some sort of cover up or favorable treatment to the perpetrator, you can bet Al Sharpton and Rev. Jackson might show up.
Al and Jesse and Van speak up against prejudice and discrimination. I know that bugs the sh!t out of you....
Go get him TPD. They usually do very good work when it comes to this criminal type. I bet they find this white creep by tracing his ammo.
It's a new type of serial killer, called a "Recreational Shooter" and it is more sport than anything else. Much like the DC sniper.
http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Dale_Hausner_and_Samuel_Dieteman (http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Dale_Hausner_and_Samuel_Dieteman)
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&t=p&source=embed&msa=0&msid=108959607879952559279.00046000099563a3e6b3a&ll=33.489871,-112.045441&spn=0.579521,1.186523&z=10 (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&t=p&source=embed&msa=0&msid=108959607879952559279.00046000099563a3e6b3a&ll=33.489871,-112.045441&spn=0.579521,1.186523&z=10)
http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/The_Baseline_Killer (http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/The_Baseline_Killer)
Quote from: dbacks fan on April 07, 2012, 12:13:23 PM
It's a new type of serial killer, called a "Recreational Shooter" and it is more sport than anything else. Much like the DC sniper.
http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Dale_Hausner_and_Samuel_Dieteman (http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Dale_Hausner_and_Samuel_Dieteman)
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&t=p&source=embed&msa=0&msid=108959607879952559279.00046000099563a3e6b3a&ll=33.489871,-112.045441&spn=0.579521,1.186523&z=10 (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&t=p&source=embed&msa=0&msid=108959607879952559279.00046000099563a3e6b3a&ll=33.489871,-112.045441&spn=0.579521,1.186523&z=10)
http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/The_Baseline_Killer (http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/The_Baseline_Killer)
sorry, but I've got to question the source when it's a wiki based on a tv show. Not saying the info is bad, just a very questionable source.
Those were based on actual events. Those are the actual shooters and victims in the two 'Criminal Minds' links. Search their names and you will find more articles on them. It was theasiest to link for the most info on them.
Quote from: dbacks fan on April 07, 2012, 12:45:41 PM
Those were based on actual events. Those are the actual shooters and victims in the two 'Criminal Minds' links. Search their names and you will find more articles on them. It was theasiest to link for the most info on them.
I wasn't saying it was bad info, was just commenting on the source.
Quote from: Hoss on April 07, 2012, 11:27:13 AM
Guess it's time for me to clean the Bersa again....
Is that what the kids call it nowadays... :o
Looks like CNN is all over this today. Makes me wonder how relevant this would be without the Martin/Zimmerman shooting going on.
It'd be pretty relevant since it's a horrific story. They news media has followed similar cases and the DC sniper was one of them.
CNN isn't the only one covering this. It's one of the seven leading stories on my homepage. It sounds like the killer got close to his victims by asking for directions so it's time to be cautious and not talk to strangers.
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 07, 2012, 11:38:55 AM
If TPD were to mishandle the case, which the detective division will probably not do, and word got out about some sort of cover up or favorable treatment to the perpetrator, you can bet Al Sharpton and Rev. Jackson might show up.
Al and Jesse and Van speak up against prejudice and discrimination. I know that bugs the sh!t out of you....
Go get him TPD. They usually do very good work when it comes to this criminal type. I bet they find this white creep by tracing his ammo.
After Blades... eh never mind.
Quote from: Jammie on April 07, 2012, 05:23:45 PM
It'd be pretty relevant since it's a horrific story. They news media has followed similar cases and the DC sniper was one of them.
CNN isn't the only one covering this. It's one of the seven leading stories on my homepage. It sounds like the killer got close to his victims by asking for directions so it's time to be cautious and not talk to strangers.
As I said before, cleaning the Bersa Thunder...
It sounds like the easiest way to keep out of this guy's line of fire is to not be a black person walking around in north Tulsa. :-*
Quote from: Jammie on April 07, 2012, 05:23:45 PM
They news media has followed similar cases and the DC sniper was one of them.
Im not seeing how this would be similar to the DC sniper. Sort of an apples/oranges comparison.
The press conference urge people to not jump to conclusions, yet they name the task force "Operation Random Shooter."
Quote from: patric on April 07, 2012, 10:16:58 PM
The press conference urge people to not jump to conclusions, yet they name the task force "Operation Random Shooter."
You'd prefer something like Operation TERMITE BLUE?
This is now a world wide story. Check just about any news outlet and it's one of their top stories.
Front page news on BBC and news media outlets from Japan to Australia. Hopefully the shooter is caught and there is no "retaliation" from the black community in Tulsa.
Quote from: patric on April 07, 2012, 10:16:58 PM
Im not seeing how this would be similar to the DC sniper. Sort of an apples/oranges comparison.
The press conference urge people to not jump to conclusions, yet they name the task force "Operation Random Shooter."
It is similar to the DC sniper and both of the serial shooter/killers in Phoenix in the fact that they are shooting people by opportunity, and targeting people in specific situations. The Baseline Killer in Phoenix lured victims to himself and then raped and murdered them, Dale Hausner and Sam Dieteman deliberately targeted people to shoot and kill based on the fact that they were walking away from them because they did not want to see the faces of the people they killed. What may seem random is actually a pattern of the way they operate. They choose to lure the victim by asking directions or some thing simple, or they choose the victim by opportunity. My point was is that it has become a recreational killing. With Dietman and Hausner, they started with animals, horses and pets and then graduated to people. The Baseline Killer, Mark Goudeau, chose his victims, by lureing them in. At the time in Phoenix, you had three serial killers that were commiting crimes as sport,
Quote"They called it 'RV'ing.' Random Recreational Violence," Horton told The Associated Press in a 2006 interview. Horton died last year.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/27/dale-hausner-phoenixs-ser_n_180225.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/27/dale-hausner-phoenixs-ser_n_180225.html)
As for Mark Goudeau,http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/11/30/20111130baseline-killer-mark-goudeau-sentenced.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/11/30/20111130baseline-killer-mark-goudeau-sentenced.html)
These people killed people by opportunity, and it became a sport to them. With both happening at the same time it was also found that they were keeping score as to who killed how many.
http://www.azcentral.com/search/index.php?catId=&aff=1100&searchkeyword=&searchcategory=*&cx=015840973018584549539%3A4mugrvjtm6k&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=Dale+Hausner&address= (http://www.azcentral.com/search/index.php?catId=&aff=1100&searchkeyword=&searchcategory=*&cx=015840973018584549539%3A4mugrvjtm6k&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=Dale+Hausner&address=)
http://www.azcentral.com/search/index.php?aff=1100&cx=015840973018584549539%3A4mugrvjtm6k&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=Mark+Guedeau (http://www.azcentral.com/search/index.php?aff=1100&cx=015840973018584549539%3A4mugrvjtm6k&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=Mark+Guedeau)
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/12/05/20111205judge-adds-years-goudeaus-jail-sentences.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/12/05/20111205judge-adds-years-goudeaus-jail-sentences.html)
http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/03/13/20090313hausner0313-ON.html?wired (http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2009/03/13/20090313hausner0313-ON.html?wired)
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/07/20090107hausner0108-side.html (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/07/20090107hausner0108-side.html)
Quote from: nathanm on April 07, 2012, 08:26:57 PM
It sounds like the easiest way to keep out of this guy's line of fire is to not be a black person walking around in north Tulsa. :-*
Conan writes a post spelling Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson's names in $$ signs in..... 3.... 2.... 1....
Oh wait. Missed page 1. :P
could this be a "retaliation" attack for the murder of one of the shooters fathers?
http://www.newson6.com/story/17359290/north-tulsa-shooter-arrested-two-years-after-fathers-murder
Quote from: custosnox on April 08, 2012, 09:51:50 AM
could this be a "retaliation" attack for the murder of one of the shooters fathers?
http://www.newson6.com/story/17359290/north-tulsa-shooter-arrested-two-years-after-fathers-murder
Possibly, but it would take an already sick mind to seek revenge that way. Had his father been killed by a white person, would've he went out and targeted anyone who was white?
Here's another sad thought. After their names were released early this morning, I was doing a search and it showed that Jacob England recently had a child with his g/f. According to the link you provided, she just passed on in January so now that little one has lost both parents.
Quote from: Jammie on April 08, 2012, 10:29:10 AM
Here's another sad thought. After their names were released early this morning, I was doing a search and it showed that Jacob England recently had a child with his g/f. According to the link you provided, she just passed on in January so now that little one has lost both parents.
That is sad, if it is indeed the same person. This might also have contributed to him going off the deep end. Doesn't excuse anything, but might help explain it.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=297&articleid=20120408_297_0_Tomnhv525414
Well, we won't know for certain until they are convicted. As I thought, our detective division is above par.
Kudos on a job well done by all those in the city/federal pr department, the TPD, and even those here despite the attacks on Sharpton and Jackson.
I have been getting emails from across the country wondering how backwoody Tulsa and Oklahoma have become over the years. I assured them this is no different than what goes on across the country in general.
IT'S OFFICIALLY A HATE CRIME! http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003336116727&sk=wall
Wow...that link disappeared quickly....
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 08, 2012, 11:48:22 AM
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=297&articleid=20120408_297_0_Tomnhv525414
Well, we won't know for certain until they are convicted. As I thought, our detective division is above par.
Kudos on a job well done by all those in the city/federal pr department, the TPD, and even those here despite the attacks on Sharpton and Jackson.
I have been getting emails from across the country wondering how backwoody Tulsa and Oklahoma have become over the years. I assured them this is no different than what goes on across the country in general.
IT'S OFFICIALLY A HATE CRIME! http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003336116727&sk=wall
I'm not on facebook so your link is not available.
Since all races are protected groups (per TNF posters), the only way it could not be a hate crime would be to somehow kill people in some kind of proportion to all the protected groups. Say 10 whites, 3 blacks, ...
Well, it was clear from his wall posts this freak hated blacks. And his victims were all black. And as much as the prosecutors will dislike submerging themselves into that aspect of our laws, it's a must.
btw, soon after a reporter for This Land Press came up with the link, it went poof! Disappeared.
try this: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/facebook-page-of-tulsa-shooting-suspect-my-dad-was-shot-by-a-f-king-n-r/
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 08, 2012, 12:18:48 PM
Well, it was clear from his wall posts this freak hated blacks. And his victims were all black. And as much as the prosecutors will dislike submerging themselves into that aspect of our laws, it's a must.
btw, soon after a reporter for This Land Press came up with the link, it went poof! Disappeared.
try this: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/facebook-page-of-tulsa-shooting-suspect-my-dad-was-shot-by-a-f-king-n-r/
The senior England's (Carl) alleged killer was never brought to trial (black on white violence) so that probably was grating on him as the second anniversary of his father's death approached.
I cant remember any "we're coming for you" press conferences in that case, though.
Quote from: patric on April 08, 2012, 02:56:23 PM
The senior England's (Carl) alleged killer was never brought to trial (black on white violence) so that probably was grating on him as the second anniversary of his father's death approached.
I cant remember any "we're coming for you" press conferences in that case, though.
Today I read a story that stated that his father wasn't actually murdered by a black man. England's sister was dating someone who had a scuffle with the black man and there was a gun involved and it went off and that's how his father was killed. It sounded more like a negligent accident then outright murder. Even though the outcome was the same, the brutality and malice weren't there. In fact, the story said that he'd be either up for parole or released soon.
For some reason, I thought it was a story on a link that was somewhere on this thread. Now I'm not so sure.
Quote from: Jammie on April 08, 2012, 08:35:47 PM
Today I read a story that stated that his father wasn't actually murdered by a black man. England's sister was dating someone who had a scuffle with the black man and there was a gun involved and it went off and that's how his father was killed. It sounded more like a negligent accident then outright murder. Even though the outcome was the same, the brutality and malice weren't there. In fact, the story said that he'd be either up for parole or released soon.
I see more similarities to the fraudulent-stock-trader-turned-Army-Sgt (who just saw a fiend shot) going out and massacring Afghan civilians as a twisted mechanism for dealing with grief, than I do with some serial sniper.
In any case, the father's death will have to eventually be addressed for us to understand any of this.
It's also a damn shame race seemed to be a preoccupation in the motive, but at least we were not hearing the phrase "no-snitch culture" being used this time around.
Meanwhile, CNN steps in it:
Quote from: patric on April 09, 2012, 11:12:58 AM
I see more similarities to the fraudulent-stock-trader-turned-Army-Sgt (who just saw a fiend shot) going out and massacring Afghan civilians as a twisted mechanism for dealing with grief, than I do with some serial sniper.
In any case, the father's death will have to eventually be addressed for us to understand any of this.
It's also a damn shame race seemed to be a preoccupation in the motive, but at least we were not hearing the phrase "no-snitch culture" being used this time around.
Meanwhile, CNN steps in it:
I just don't understand the need for someone of her stature in journalism to have to do that, even WITH the disclaimer before she said it. That's like rubbing salt in the wound for some.
But I guess none of us ever said any of the cable news media outlets were responsible.
I've heard other reporters get their point across without having to say either word.
Doesn't sound like the father was murdered, but rather killed in an act of self-defense even though his killer seemed to have instigated the incident.
Zimmerman, anyone?
Quote from: Conan71 on April 09, 2012, 12:40:10 PM
Doesn't sound like the father was murdered, but rather killed in an act of self-defense even though his killer seemed to have instigated the incident.
Zimmerman, anyone?
Well, except for the father was armed and beating the guy with a stick.
I just don't get this, you beat a guy trying to break into your apartment with a bat, he slinks off telling you he's going to get a gun. You have a buddy come over and you go and look for the guy that just told you he was getting a gun. You can't help stupid sometimes.
Call the police people, good lord.
FYI, this is the 2nd most pupular comment on the story on CNN right now:
Quote
civility1st
I've never been to Tulsa, and I don't know the history of Tulsa. But from what I can tell, it took less than 24 hrs for the people of Tulsa to find two men who killed three people and tried to kill two more - and told police where to find them. And now, the people of Tulsa are asleep in their beds. They are not marching or rioting or writing hateful comments on a website.
They aren't arguing about how Cherokee or how white these men are. They aren't lining up to defend them because they shot black people, or lining up to say that if they shot black people they must be white.
It looks to me like people in Tulsa put people into two groups, but not into the two groups being discussed here. It looks to me like people in Tulsa think the two groups of people are those who break laws and those who don't. I think they are on to something with that idea.
I hope this hate-filled hillbilly doesn't give Turley a bad name.
Quote from: sgrizzle on April 09, 2012, 02:15:03 PM
FYI, this is the 2nd most pupular comment on the story on CNN right now:
It's a shame life isnt that simplistic.
Im taking bets on who shows up first, Rev. Sharpton to calm everybody down, or Phelp's Westboro cult to tell everyone how much God hates them.
Quote from: patric on April 09, 2012, 03:26:36 PM
It's a shame life isnt that simplistic.
Im taking bets on who shows up first, Rev. Sharpton to calm everybody down, or Phelp's Westboro cult to tell everyone how much God hates them.
$harpton won't show up to calm anyone down. That's not what makes and keeps him and his cohort Rev. Jacka$$ so relevant.
Quote from: patric on April 09, 2012, 03:26:36 PM
It's a shame life isnt that simplistic.
Im taking bets on who shows up first, Rev. Sharpton to calm everybody down, or Phelp's Westboro cult to tell everyone how much God hates them.
and looks like Sharpton takes the money http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Rev-Al-Sharpton-plans-to-visit-Tulsa/3JzgoD3-gU6ZEf9Q7vfM2w.cspx
I hope Rev. $harpton speaks a message of peace and reconciliation when he's here and compliments our police and prosecutor for their hard work in arresting the two accused so quickly.
But I doubt that's going to be his message.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 09, 2012, 04:30:41 PM
I hope Rev. $harpton speaks a message of peace and reconciliation when he's here and compliments our police and prosecutor for their hard work in arresting the two accused so quickly.
But I doubt that's going to be his message.
Al and Jesse and Van speak up against prejudice and discrimination. I know that bugs the sh!t out of you....
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 09, 2012, 04:55:49 PM
Al and Jesse and Van speak up against prejudice and discrimination. I know that bugs the sh!t out of you....
You know, TTC, it's completely understandable. Due to the (relative) lack of overt and public racism, it's hard to believe people when they talk about it as if it were still the 1960s. The latent racism in the criminal justice system is usually easy to overlook, for example. It took me a long time to "get" the concept of privilege and how it is I came to have it and others didn't.
NSFW, so not embedded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 09, 2012, 04:55:49 PM
Al and Jesse and Van speak up against prejudice and discrimination. I know that bugs the sh!t out of you....
I have noticed that those that bring racism into things fastest and the loudest tend to be the most racist
Quote from: Conan71 on April 09, 2012, 04:30:41 PM
I hope Rev. $harpton speaks a message of peace and reconciliation when he's here and compliments our police and prosecutor for their hard work in arresting the two accused so quickly.
But I doubt that's going to be his message.
I'm sure he will. That's his purpose as a Christian leader.
Let the healing begin!
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 09, 2012, 04:55:49 PM
Al and Jesse and Van speak up against prejudice and discrimination. I know that bugs the sh!t out of you....
The reason I don't care for either of these two "preachers" is they preach a message of controversy and confrontation not a message of peace and healing which is the Christian doctrine they supposedly espouse. They keep trying to convince their black brethren it's the white man holding them down. Fine, but rather than showing examples of how black people and other minorities can rise above their struggles, all they do is stay mired in heated racial rhetoric and spout off about how all the odds are stacked against minorities. That's NOT a solution for black Americans, TTC.
Remember, I'm a solutions-oriented person, not problem-oriented. That is the reason I can't stand either one of them.
Those two don't understand solutions, unless you think extortion and creating controversy where it is not needed is some sort of great solution for race issues.
Al Sharpton bugs the hell out of me.
I think he is divisive, mean-spirited, and serves as a spokesman for keeping race relations a topic even when they aren't.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on April 10, 2012, 08:36:51 AM
Al Sharpton bugs the hell out of me.
I think he is divisive, mean-spirited, and serves as a spokesman for keeping race relations a topic even when they aren't.
I have to agree. He does not have a good track record. Tawana Brawley, anyone?
But it is sad that there are reasons people like him are in the public eye. It's definitely something we should be talking about. Pretending racism does not exist results in events (and the cover up) like the 1921 Tulsa race riot...
Tulsa was the focus of an NPR story this morning, and I have to say it did not put Tulsa in a positive light. They interviewed a native Tulsan who is a historian and professor at U of Michigan.
Basically, he claims that Tulsa hasn't evolved much since the riots, and that most Tulsans would view these recent shootings as a tragedy, but not a commentary on race relations in the city. He also mentioned that one of the up and coming neighborhoods, the Brady, is named after a prominant local businessman who also happened to be a prominent klansman. That is something I did not know. Why would Tulsa, with it's less than stellar history of race relations, name a well known district after a confirmed racist? Why not rename it to something less offensive? It seems very insensitive. I never knew that about Tate Brady. I guess it's not surprising, given that I never leared about the race riots until I was in my 20's and living in another state. Is it still not taught in the schools in Tulsa?
I am curious as to what others think about this.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 10:18:18 AM
I have to agree. He does not have a good track record. Tawana Brawley, anyone?
But it is sad that there are reasons people like him are in the public eye. It's definitely something we should be talking about. Pretending racism does not exist results in events (and the cover up) like the 1921 Tulsa race riot...
there is a difference between pretending racism does not exist and not acting like everything has to do with it
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 10:29:54 AM
Tulsa was the focus of an NPR story this morning, and I have to say it did not put Tulsa in a positive light. They interviewed a native Tulsan who is a historian and professor at U of Michigan.
Basically, he claims that Tulsa hasn't evolved much since the riots, and that most Tulsans would view these recent shootings as a tragedy, but not a commentary on race relations in the city. He also mentioned that one of the up and coming neighborhoods, the Brady, is named after a prominant local businessman who also happened to be a prominent klansman. That is something I did not know. Why would Tulsa, with it's less than stellar history of race relations, name a well known district after a confirmed racist? Why not rename it to something less offensive? It seems very insensitive. I never knew that about Tate Brady. I guess it's not surprising, given that I never leared about the race riots until I was in my 20's and living in another state. Is it still not taught in the schools in Tulsa?
I am curious as to what others think about this.
The research on Tate Brady has only recently (as in the last year or so) come to the public's attention. It seems to me that this professor has an ax to grind against Tulsa, and trying to say that we are indifferent about racism because recent research has shown that the person that the Brady district is named after was a clansman, contrary to popular belief, is really just nick picking. Not to mention that not everyone accepts this research as positive proof of such a stance (though it is primarily the great granddaughter that is fighting it).
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 10:31:01 AM
there is a difference between pretending racism does not exist and not acting like everything has to do with it
Agreed!
I went to NPR's website to look into this prof that made that insipid analysis about Tulsa not moving forward since the riots. I found this on it's home page and, well...
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/04/09/MrGayWorld12_3_wide.jpg?t=1334003219&s=4)
http://www.npr.org/2012/04/09/150299723/for-the-first-time-mr-gay-world-crowned-in-africa
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 10:31:01 AM
there is a difference between pretending racism does not exist and not acting like everything has to do with it
Well put.
Azbad, I disagree Tulsa has not evolved since the riots. Just because some Tulsa native who now is a professor at the U of M says it's so doesn't make it that way for those of us who still live here. I think race relations in Tulsa have kept pace with those nationally. There's also been plenty of attention shined on the riots in the last 10-20 years.
I know little of Tate Brady's life and no idea if he ever renounced his Klansmanship. Even if he was an ignorant, racist bastard, that doesn't negate all the good contributions he did give to Tulsa.
I would imagine there are memorials in the form of buildings and roads named after Sen. Robert Byrd in West Virginia for all the good he brought to the state in his years in the U.S. Senate. Should those be re-named simply because he also had a racist streak at one time?
I found this comment from a race riot survivor on the idea of renaming anything Brady interesting:
QuoteFox 23 spoke to Tulsans about changing place names that honor Brady, including the Brady Heights historic neighborhood, Brady Street, and the Brady Arts District. I'm inclined to agree with 94-year-old race riot survivor Wess Young:
He doesn't want the neighborhood's name to change. "That's history, why would you try and change what has gone one and not show what progress you have made," he told FOX23. He says he doesn't live in Tate Brady's neighborhood, he lives in his neighborhood. No matter what name it has. "It doesn't bother me because I have the privilege to live where I can afford."
http://www.batesline.com/archives/2011/09/tate-brady-the-klan-and-the-atta.html
Quote from: Conan71 on April 10, 2012, 11:09:21 AM
Well put.
Azbad, I disagree Tulsa has not evolved since the riots. Just because some Tulsa native who now is a professor at the U of M says it's so doesn't make it that way for those of us who still live here. I think race relations in Tulsa have kept pace with those nationally. There's also been plenty of attention shined on the riots in the last 10-20 years.
I know little of Tate Brady's life and no idea if he ever renounced his Klansmanship. Even if he was an ignorant, racist bastard, that doesn't negate all the good contributions he did give to Tulsa.
I would imagine there are memorials in the form of buildings and roads named after Sen. Robert Byrd in West Virginia for all the good he brought to the state in his years in the U.S. Senate. Should those be re-named simply because he also had a racist streak at one time?
I found this comment from a race riot survivor on the idea of renaming anything Brady interesting:
And your point is precisely what I was thinking which is what prompted me to examine the source of that critique. My gosh, tying today's Tulsans to what the 1920s Tulsans were like? Crap, I'm not even from here originally, and neither are a lion share of people in my circle. It isn't even logical that I could be part of that "problem". Incidentally, I did a little research on the most racist cities in America, and look at the second link that popped up and who's number 1. Funny.
https://www.google.com/search?q=famous%20racists&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=4ye&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&channel=np&sclient=psy-ab&q=racist+cities&oq=racist+cities&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_l=serp.3..0l4.38235l38235l1l38606l1l1l0l0l0l0l182l182l0j1l1l0.frgbld.&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=bb242dc4ab43ba95&biw=1366&bih=622
Quote from: Conan71 on April 10, 2012, 08:30:39 AM
The reason I don't care for either of these two "preachers" is they preach a message of controversy and confrontation not a message of peace and healing which is the Christian doctrine they supposedly espouse. They keep trying to convince their black brethren it's the white man holding them down. Fine, but rather than showing examples of how black people and other minorities can rise above their struggles, all they do is stay mired in heated racial rhetoric and spout off about how all the odds are stacked against minorities. That's NOT a solution for black Americans, TTC.
Remember, I'm a solutions-oriented person, not problem-oriented. That is the reason I can't stand either one of them.
Those two don't understand solutions, unless you think extortion and creating controversy where it is not needed is some sort of great solution for race issues.
You and Cust are working hard to race bait me today, but I won't get too entangled. Non violent confrontation to move against an injustice makes sense to keep rioting from a method and these leaders provide an ability to communicate civility with the masses of frustrated people. You really think they created the controversy in Florida? BTW RM, it's always a necessary evil to be a speaker for a country's conscience.
You're an engineer Conan? Some sensitivity towards the issue rather than dismissing it as "creating controversy." Is "creating controversy" the same as pointing out injustices, prejudices, and discriminatory practices against gender, race, or ethnic background? These gentlemen believe strongly in peace and in civil disobedience. For you noticing they aren't coming here while still spatting a disconnect and incoherence against these minority group leaders again exposes you because I know you enjoy a good debate. In the Zimmerman situation, these men did not create a controversy but instead exposed a potential mishandling of justice to the masses. If you have a problem with that, then quit reading newspapers, the internet, and watching Fox.
I stand by my earlier comments:
QuoteIf TPD were to mishandle the case, which the detective division will probably not do, and word got out about some sort of cover up or favorable treatment to the perpetrator, you can bet Al Sharpton and Rev. Jackson might show up.
Al and Jesse and Van speak up against prejudice and discrimination. I know that bugs the sh!t out of you....
Go get him TPD. They usually do very good work when it comes to this criminal type. I bet they find this white creep by tracing his ammo.
I didn't start this fire. Why's it still simmering? Think it's going to get better on it's own?
"They never know what's going on in the Negro Community" Malcom X (watch and don't run from it)...still applies today.
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 10:31:01 AM
there is a difference between pretending racism does not exist and not acting like everything has to do with it
Absolutely. Those are both the extremes. Somewhere there is middle ground.
Not "everything has to do with it" but it seeped into this thread right away (Conan)....
I don't see it being introduced into %90 the other topic threads here.
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 10, 2012, 11:36:39 AM
You and Cust are working hard to race bait me today, but I won't get too entangled. Non violent confrontation to move against an injustice makes sense to keep rioting from a method and these leaders provide an ability to communicate civility with the masses of frustrated people. You really think they created the controversy in Florida? BTW RM, it's always a necessary evil to be a speaker for a country's conscience.
You're an engineer Conan? Some sensitivity towards the issue rather than dismissing it as "creating controversy." Is "creating controversy" the same as pointing out injustices, prejudices, and discriminatory practices against gender, race, or ethnic background? These gentlemen believe strongly in peace and in civil disobedience. For you noticing they aren't coming here while still spatting a disconnect and incoherence against these minority group leaders again exposes you because I know you enjoy a good debate. In the Zimmerman situation, these men did not create a controversy but instead exposed a potential mishandling of justice to the masses. If you have a problem with that, then quit reading newspapers, the internet, and watching Fox.
I stand by my earlier comments:
I didn't start this fire. Why's it still simmering? Think it's going to get better on it's own?
"They never know what's going on in the Negro Community" Malcom X (watch and don't run from it)...still applies today.
Sharpton and Jackson are nothing more than bottom feeding scum that see it as their solemn duty to do nothing more than keep the divide between so called races as open as possible. They are not interested in healing any wounds, they are interested in pouring as much salt in it, gouging it until it bleeds more and watching the public react to the pain so that they can get their own personal justification. They are the type that see color of skin before anything else and react according to it. Do you really want to be in the same category as this?
edit to ask, where exactly have I race baited?
You sound like Charlie Manson....
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 10:51:47 AM
The research on Tate Brady has only recently (as in the last year or so) come to the public's attention. It seems to me that this professor has an ax to grind against Tulsa, and trying to say that we are indifferent about racism because recent research has shown that the person that the Brady district is named after was a clansman, contrary to popular belief, is really just nick picking. Not to mention that not everyone accepts this research as positive proof of such a stance (though it is primarily the great granddaughter that is fighting it).
Actually, if you do a bit of searching you can see where Brady's past in various factions of the KKK is well documented, and appears to have been known for quite some time. Again, just not talked about.
It didn't sound like this historian had an axe to grind: he was simply stating that it seems like many Tulsans are still indifferent about race relations, and are reluctant to talk about them. I don't really have an opinion since I haven't been a resident for quite some time, but growing up there, I can say with certaintly there was more than a little covert racism experienced. I was really curious though as to what people on here thought about all of this.
I do think its very strange, and concerning however, that the race riots were not taught in the school systems anywhere in Oklahoma, as far as I can gather, from asking all of my relatives and friends who went to schools throughout Oklahoma- not just Tulsa. It was, and still is to this day, the single deadliest racial clash in American history.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 10:29:54 AM
Why would Tulsa, with it's less than stellar history of race relations, name a well known district after a confirmed racist? Why not rename it to something less offensive? It seems very insensitive. I never knew that about Tate Brady. I guess it's not surprising, given that I never leared about the race riots until I was in my 20's and living in another state. Is it still not taught in the schools in Tulsa?
Now I have to wonder if the people who want to banish the names of controversial city forefathers are the same ones who want to mandate riot history courses?
I agree we should know our history, barnacles and all, but we should approach it as history and not as politics.
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 10, 2012, 11:36:39 AM
You and Cust are working hard to race bait me today, but I won't get too entangled. Non violent confrontation to move against an injustice makes sense to keep rioting from a method and these leaders provide an ability to communicate civility with the masses of frustrated people. You really think they created the controversy in Florida? BTW RM, it's always a necessary evil to be a speaker for a country's conscience.
You're an engineer Conan? Some sensitivity towards the issue rather than dismissing it as "creating controversy." Is "creating controversy" the same as pointing out injustices, prejudices, and discriminatory practices against gender, race, or ethnic background? These gentlemen believe strongly in peace and in civil disobedience. For you noticing they aren't coming here while still spatting a disconnect and incoherence against these minority group leaders again exposes you because I know you enjoy a good debate. In the Zimmerman situation, these men did not create a controversy but instead exposed a potential mishandling of justice to the masses. If you have a problem with that, then quit reading newspapers, the internet, and watching Fox.
I stand by my earlier comments:
I didn't start this fire. Why's it still simmering? Think it's going to get better on it's own?
"They never know what's going on in the Negro Community" Malcom X (watch and don't run from it)...still applies today.
I'm not trying to crank your starter at all, TTC. I'll reserve further comment on Rev. Al'$ vi$it until after it's in print.
As far as peaceful? Google Sharpton and the Crown Heights Riot or the Freddie's Fashion Mart protest and tell me you still think $harpton is completely blameless in the violence which erupted. I also have a hard time with a tax scofflaw who owes north of $500k blaming enforcement efforts by the IRS as "politically motivated". He brings in millions, yet creates a web of "non-profits" to cheat the IRS. He's no better than the corporatists you rail against.
Jackson? Well-documented Anti-Semite. Hymietown? Diamond merchants?
Obviously, what happened this last weekend in Tulsa is a horrific tragedy in any community. I'm simply hoping that the context remains what it is: two very sick people decided to go on a shooting rampage.
This is not the product of some community which condones such behavior, nor where there is an overt sense of racial injustice or hate crimes.I'm incredibly impressed not only with swift police work, but mostly the sense of dignity with which all of Tulsa has dealt with this crime spree. That's why I'm really miffed at $harpton's visit and what his message will be. I'm curious if he will be able to recognize the dignity with which this has been handled rather than trying to foment some sort of outrage.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 12:06:08 PM
Didn't sound like this historian had an axe to grind: he was simply stating that it seems like many Tulsans are still indifferent about race relations, and are reluctant to talk about them.
I find this and other similar statements disconcerting. First off I personally am not reluctant to talk about race relations, I just have not had the topic come up in any way or situation in which talking about it would make any difference. Perhaps its because most people I hang around apparently have similar thoughts or opinions or don't say otherwise. But what of this "indifference"? What does that mean exactly and whats a person supposed to do such that they will not be "indifferent" to our cities race relations?
While there are certainly racial tension in Tulsa, I don't believe they are at the levels that the national press is insinuating.
During the late 80's and early 90's there was a pretty decent skinhead movement in town but their acts were more along the lines petty thiefs than racist jackasses since most of the people in the scene they hung out in were totally against racism.
The city council promoted racism for a while by calling out the mayors for doing or not doing certain things in north Tulsa. Typically, the race card was played to get the press involved as the racist sentiments often quieted once the councilor got what they wanted.
I don't see racism as a problem in Tulsa right now and find it ironic that a guy who appears to be mexican or indian had racist facebook posts against blacks that is being used to make it look like all white people in Tulsa hate black people.
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 10, 2012, 11:49:46 AM
You sound like Charlie Manson....
Care to elaborate on this comparison, or is this just a simple ad hominem?
The denial that racism is a problem in Tulsa is part of the problem with race in Tulsa if you don't mind a bit of recursion. We almost never get to the bottom of the issue because it is more convenient to simply deny that it exists. This case is a wonderful example. A couple of white guys, one of whom might be part native American, post inflammatory rhetoric on Facebook site and tells a friend that it's time to go kill some f***ing n*****s, get in their truck and drive around North Tulsa shooting people about whom the only thing they know is they're black. The first comments to the article in the Tulsa World are that it must be some sort of drug deal gone bad. The next is what are those people doing out of doors after dark in North Tulsa. Then when it emerges that the shooters are a couple of white guys in a pickup truck, they equate the case to the recent murder case in which the two elderly people were beaten and robbed in their home, one of whom later died. It's as if some white folks believe it is justifiable to say "meh" to racially motivated serial killing because the black community failed to condemn a single black-on-white crime to their satisfaction. And meanwhile everyone, white and black, seems to have accepted a gang war that results in Tulsa having one of the highest per-capita homicide rates in the country as just one of those things. For a pro-life community, life seems to be pretty cheap, especially African-American life.
Meanwhile, the mayor is quoted as telling CNN, "No, there's no racial tension in the town at all now. We've gone beyond that years and years ago. Decades, really." Give me a break.
No slam against Weatherdemon here. He is echoing a common theme, probably more out of hope that it might be true than anything else, and unlike our idiot mayor, at least recognizes that tensions exist, leaving us to debate their effect. I remember the skinheads and the Irish Mob during the '80s and am glad to see it drift back into obscurity. But there's much more to the problem of race in Tulsa than that.
The Tate Brady issue is a whole other story that reaches many of the oldest and most respected families in Tulsa. That might explain our collective disinclination to poke too hard at it. I don't think we are well served by simply pretending that long-held societal beliefs have somehow just gone away because of the goodness of the people. Let those with ears to hear, etc.
Quote from: Weatherdemon on April 10, 2012, 01:01:19 PM
While there are certainly racial tension in Tulsa, I don't believe they are at the levels that the national press is insinuating.
During the late 80's and early 90's there was a pretty decent skinhead movement in town but their acts were more along the lines petty thiefs than racist jackasses since most of the people in the scene they hung out in were totally against racism.
The city council promoted racism for a while by calling out the mayors for doing or not doing certain things in north Tulsa. Typically, the race card was played to get the press involved as the racist sentiments often quieted once the councilor got what they wanted.
I don't see racism as a problem in Tulsa right now and find it ironic that a guy who appears to be mexican or indian had racist facebook posts against blacks that is being used to make it look like all white people in Tulsa hate black people.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 12:06:08 PM
Actually, if you do a bit of searching you can see where Brady's past in various factions of the KKK is well documented, and appears to have been known for quite some time. Again, just not talked about.
It didn't sound like this historian had an axe to grind: he was simply stating that it seems like many Tulsans are still indifferent about race relations, and are reluctant to talk about them. I don't really have an opinion since I haven't been a resident for quite some time, but growing up there, I can say with certaintly there was more than a little covert racism experienced. I was really curious though as to what people on here thought about all of this.
I do think its very strange, and concerning however, that the race riots were not taught in the school systems anywhere in Oklahoma, as far as I can gather, from asking all of my relatives and friends who went to schools throughout Oklahoma- not just Tulsa. It was, and still is to this day, the single deadliest racial clash in American history.
I'm trying to get ready for a trip, so I wasn't able to really dig into the claim on Brady, but everything that came up in a quick search went back to one book written by a guy who had done the research and was getting a lot of media attention last year. I've done some research on my own of the history of Tulsa and don't recall coming across it before. This is essentially what I'm going on about the claim of it being a non-issue of the district being named after him. Doesn't mean I'm correct, just what information I have at hand.
To me it seems the historian has a bias against Tulsa and is intent on painting the scene in a poor light, just from what you posted about him as it doesn't seem to accurately reflect what I see here. Why is it so important that everyone be discussing race? This only fosters the attitude of difference. Wouldn't an ideal society put as little emphasis on this as possible? Or should we also have it as a prominent discussion about how some people have blue eyes and others have brown? It's when we highlight these differences that problems come about. It makes me think of the whole "why don't you see? They are black on the left side!"
Just curious, did you learn of the Watts riots in public school? While I agree that we should learn our history, both good and bad, it seems that some of these things tend to get lost in the vastness of history that we need to learn.
Quote from: Weatherdemon on April 10, 2012, 01:01:19 PM
While there are certainly racial tension in Tulsa, I don't believe they are at the levels that the national press is insinuating.
I tend to agree with that, especially since I know a lot of people in Tulsa, none of whom I would think of as racist, and I am certain that the vast majority of Tulsans are not racist. However, when you have a history like Tulsa's (like it or not, it happened), it may not be in the best interest of the city's image to name major streets, neighborhoods, and points of interest after a KKK member. It's also propbably not a great idea to try and ignore history by not teaching it in the schools. Don't the schools require all kids to take an Oklahoma history class? I would think that's a pretty important piece of history to learn about, you know, so as not to repeat it. Just saying.
I think these things are where some might see the attitude in Tulsa as "indifferent".
Quote from: cynical on April 10, 2012, 02:06:23 PM
The denial that racism is a problem in Tulsa is part of the problem with race in Tulsa if you don't mind a bit of recursion. We almost never get to the bottom of the issue because it is more convenient to simply deny that it exists. This case is a wonderful example. A couple of white guys, one of whom might be part native American, post inflammatory rhetoric on Facebook site and tells a friend that it's time to go kill some f***ing n*****s, get in their truck and drive around North Tulsa shooting people about whom the only thing they know is they're black. The first comments to the article in the Tulsa World are that it must be some sort of drug deal gone bad. The next is what are those people doing out of doors after dark in North Tulsa. Then when it emerges that the shooters are a couple of white guys in a pickup truck, they equate the case to the recent murder case in which the two elderly people were beaten and robbed in their home, one of whom later died. It's as if some white folks believe it is justifiable to say "meh" to racially motivated serial killing because the black community failed to condemn a single black-on-white crime to their satisfaction. And meanwhile everyone, white and black, seems to have accepted a gang war that results in Tulsa having one of the highest per-capita homicide rates in the country as just one of those things. For a pro-life community, life seems to be pretty cheap, especially African-American life.
Meanwhile, the mayor is quoted as telling CNN, "No, there's no racial tension in the town at all now. We've gone beyond that years and years ago. Decades, really." Give me a break.
No slam against Weatherdemon here. He is echoing a common theme, probably more out of hope that it might be true than anything else, and unlike our idiot mayor, at least recognizes that tensions exist, leaving us to debate their effect. I remember the skinheads and the Irish Mob during the '80s and am glad to see it drift back into obscurity. But there's much more to the problem of race in Tulsa than that.
The Tate Brady issue is a whole other story that reaches many of the oldest and most respected families in Tulsa. That might explain our collective disinclination to poke too hard at it. I don't think we are well served by simply pretending that long-held societal beliefs have somehow just gone away because of the goodness of the people. Let those with ears to hear, etc.
There is a lot of racism still in our little city, but it is getting stamped out more and more. For those ones that made the stupid racist remarks in the comments section, how many came in behind them and called them out on it? Some people just won't get past their own bigotry. While Dewey's comments are obviously a result of the pink gasses that shadows always goes on about (seeing things through rose colored glasses), the level of racial tensions here really aren't that bad compared to a lot of other places. We are on the way out of that era, though we still have a ways to go. Yes, it does exist, which is a shame, but claiming racism every chance one gets does nothing to help the cause. Let me ask, if a cop pulls a car over for doing 75 in a 60 and the driver turns out to be black, and his comment is "it's because I'm black," who do you think is the one that is bringing race into the situation?
Quote from: TheArtist on April 10, 2012, 12:45:55 PM
I find this and other similar statements disconcerting. First off I personally am not reluctant to talk about race relations, I just have not had the topic come up in any way or situation in which talking about it would make any difference. Perhaps its because most people I hang around apparently have similar thoughts or opinions or don't say otherwise. But what of this "indifference"? What does that mean exactly and whats a person supposed to do such that they will not be "indifferent" to our cities race relations?
I think requiring the Tulsa riots be taught in school whould be a good start. By ignoring it, the perception is indeeed that the overall mindset is, at the very best, indifferent. I'm actually pretty shocked that I never learned about such an important piece of Tulsa history, all the while growing up and being educated in Tulsa! That, to me, is very disconcerting.
By simply not talking about it, or pretending it doesn't exist, or viewing it as an unnecessary or uncomfortable subject, is the very definition of "indifference".
Quote from: cynical on April 10, 2012, 02:06:23 PM
The denial that racism is a problem in Tulsa is part of the problem with race in Tulsa if you don't mind a bit of recursion. We almost never get to the bottom of the issue because it is more convenient to simply deny that it exists. This case is a wonderful example. A couple of white guys, one of whom might be part native American, post inflammatory rhetoric on Facebook site and tells a friend that it's time to go kill some f***ing n*****s, get in their truck and drive around North Tulsa shooting people about whom the only thing they know is they're black. The first comments to the article in the Tulsa World are that it must be some sort of drug deal gone bad. The next is what are those people doing out of doors after dark in North Tulsa. Then when it emerges that the shooters are a couple of white guys in a pickup truck, they equate the case to the recent murder case in which the two elderly people were beaten and robbed in their home, one of whom later died. It's as if some white folks believe it is justifiable to say "meh" to racially motivated serial killing because the black community failed to condemn a single black-on-white crime to their satisfaction. And meanwhile everyone, white and black, seems to have accepted a gang war that results in Tulsa having one of the highest per-capita homicide rates in the country as just one of those things. For a pro-life community, life seems to be pretty cheap, especially African-American life.
Meanwhile, the mayor is quoted as telling CNN, "No, there's no racial tension in the town at all now. We've gone beyond that years and years ago. Decades, really." Give me a break.
No slam against Weatherdemon here. He is echoing a common theme, probably more out of hope that it might be true than anything else, and unlike our idiot mayor, at least recognizes that tensions exist, leaving us to debate their effect. I remember the skinheads and the Irish Mob during the '80s and am glad to see it drift back into obscurity. But there's much more to the problem of race in Tulsa than that.
The Tate Brady issue is a whole other story that reaches many of the oldest and most respected families in Tulsa. That might explain our collective disinclination to poke too hard at it. I don't think we are well served by simply pretending that long-held societal beliefs have somehow just gone away because of the goodness of the people. Let those with ears to hear, etc.
Random statements in the TW comments section on crime cases doesn't rise to the level of a huge racial divide in Tulsa. I refuse to believe the comments of a handful of idiotic individuals defines an entire community (I'm certain you must have an IQ under 90 to post in the TW). Just because we don't talk about the race riots in daily conversation doesn't mean it's swept under the rug or that we are indifferent to it. Just because there's a historic district, residential area, and street bearing Tate Brady's name doesn't mean Tulsa is glorifying nor celebrating it's racist past.
At some point you have to quit being a slave to history and to the few negative nut bags in a community and focus on and enjoy the positives.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 02:21:12 PM
I think requiring the Tulsa riots be taught in school whould be a good start. By ignoring it, the perception is indeeed that the overall mindset is, at the very best, indifferent. I'm actually pretty shocked that I never learned about such an important piece of Tulsa history, all the while growing up and being educated in Tulsa! That, to me, is very disconcerting.
By simply not talking about it, or pretending it doesn't exist, or viewing it as an unnecessary or uncomfortable subject, is the very definition of "indifference".
I wish I could find a copy of the Oklahoma history book we used in 9th grade. If it was taught, we didn't spend a lot of time on the topic.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 02:21:12 PM
I think requiring the Tulsa riots be taught in school whould be a good start. By ignoring it, the perception is indeeed that the overall mindset is, at the very best, indifferent. I'm actually pretty shocked that I never learned about such an important piece of Tulsa history, all the while growing up and being educated in Tulsa! That, to me, is very disconcerting.
By simply not talking about it, or pretending it doesn't exist, or viewing it as an unnecessary or uncomfortable subject, is the very definition of "indifference".
I went to Jenks in the 80s and we learned about it. It was actually a chapter in one of our text books. I remember being amazed by all of the old pictures of Tulsa, and shocked that something like that could happen in a city where I grew up.
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 02:06:47 PM
I'm trying to get ready for a trip, so I wasn't able to really dig into the claim on Brady, but everything that came up in a quick search went back to one book written by a guy who had done the research and was getting a lot of media attention last year. I've done some research on my own of the history of Tulsa and don't recall coming across it before. This is essentially what I'm going on about the claim of it being a non-issue of the district being named after him. Doesn't mean I'm correct, just what information I have at hand.
And you could be correct- I just happened to notice a few articles dating back as far as 2009 from a quick search, which led me to believe there was more than just a years history.
Why is it so important that everyone be discussing race?
I think the many riots of the past and more present, as well as actions like the recent shootings, numerous hate crimes, and on a global scale, the actions of Nazi Germany have answered this question.
Just curious, did you learn of the Wyatt's riots in public school? While I agree that we should learn our history, both good and bad, it seems that some of these things tend to get lost in the vastness of history that we need to learn.
Do you mean the Watts riots? I honestly don't remember if I learned about them in high school, or in college, but yes, I learned about them. I also did not go to high school in California, where they occured. I personally think it's extremely important to teach this history to kids, since it greatly impacts the present, and future of our complex relations in this country.
Quote from: cynical on April 10, 2012, 02:06:23 PM
The denial that racism is a problem in Tulsa is part of the problem with race in Tulsa if you don't mind a bit of recursion. We almost never get to the bottom of the issue because it is more convenient to simply deny that it exists. This case is a wonderful example. A couple of white guys, one of whom might be part native American, post inflammatory rhetoric on Facebook site and tells a friend that it's time to go kill some f***ing n*****s, get in their truck and drive around North Tulsa shooting people about whom the only thing they know is they're black. The first comments to the article in the Tulsa World are that it must be some sort of drug deal gone bad. The next is what are those people doing out of doors after dark in North Tulsa. Then when it emerges that the shooters are a couple of white guys in a pickup truck, they equate the case to the recent murder case in which the two elderly people were beaten and robbed in their home, one of whom later died. It's as if some white folks believe it is justifiable to say "meh" to racially motivated serial killing because the black community failed to condemn a single black-on-white crime to their satisfaction. And meanwhile everyone, white and black, seems to have accepted a gang war that results in Tulsa having one of the highest per-capita homicide rates in the country as just one of those things. For a pro-life community, life seems to be pretty cheap, especially African-American life.
Meanwhile, the mayor is quoted as telling CNN, "No, there's no racial tension in the town at all now. We've gone beyond that years and years ago. Decades, really." Give me a break.
No slam against Weatherdemon here. He is echoing a common theme, probably more out of hope that it might be true than anything else, and unlike our idiot mayor, at least recognizes that tensions exist, leaving us to debate their effect. I remember the skinheads and the Irish Mob during the '80s and am glad to see it drift back into obscurity. But there's much more to the problem of race in Tulsa than that.
The Tate Brady issue is a whole other story that reaches many of the oldest and most respected families in Tulsa. That might explain our collective disinclination to poke too hard at it. I don't think we are well served by simply pretending that long-held societal beliefs have somehow just gone away because of the goodness of the people. Let those with ears to hear, etc.
Insightful post...
Custo, the problem is racism goes unnoticed.
Conan, do you think people change? He's certainly learned about diet.
Tulsa is a better place these days. I'd attribute it to the integration of schools which opened the door to communication and understanding. Our sanctuaries seem more tolerant as well. Unfortunately, the melt down of family and hard economic times sets progress back. The bigger conflict is between the haves and the have nots.
Quote from: Gaspar on April 10, 2012, 02:33:26 PM
I went to Jenks in the 80s and we learned about it. It was actually a chapter in one of our text books. I remember being amazed by all of the old pictures of Tulsa, and shocked that something like that could happen in a city where I grew up.
That is interesting, because I too went to Jenks in the 80's, and never once remember reading, or hearing about it. I didn't graduate high school at Jenks though, but my older sister graduated from Jenks in the 80's and she never learned about it either. They must have changed the curriculum? Hopefully so.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 10:29:54 AM
Basically, he claims that Tulsa hasn't evolved much since the riots, and that most Tulsans would view these recent shootings as a tragedy, but not a commentary on race relations in the city.
This is not a situation unique to Tulsa. It seems most white folks are in denial about the effectively racist policies that permeate our country. Limiting it solely to Tulsa or even a group of "racist" cities and/or states is just silly. The whole damn country is permeated by the remnants of our racist past. I have come to see denial of the facts of the situation as just another form of latent racism.
Note that this is in no way to say that any particular individual is racist. Most people are very far from racists, they just don't want to deal with the hard truths. There's no hatred in their heart, just denial.
The sad thing is that we've been here before. There was a period after the Civil War where black people were, at least as far as the government was concerned, fully equal to whites. Only later did declining concern for racism on the part of the abolitionist Northerners as they turned their attention elsewhere (after all, there is no more slavery, job well done!) allow the racist practices and institutions to begin taking over.
Once again, we see otherwise right-thinking people in denial about the racism that continues to be rained down upon many of our fellow countrymen. I hope that it won't get as bad as it did last time around this merry-go-round, although with states like Wisconsin eliminating their equal pay laws, I'm becoming less and less sure.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 02:35:59 PM
I don't know why I felt the need to put a y in Watts. And my point is that there is a lot of stuff in history. There is a lot that I'm sure we have learned over the years, in school and elsewhere, that we can't even remember where we learned it, so it's easy to loose track of what gets taught where.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 02:40:05 PM
That is interesting, because I too went to Jenks in the 80's, and never once remember reading, or hearing about it. I didn't graduate high school at Jenks though, but my older sister graduated from Jenks in the 80's and she never learned about it either. They must have changed the curriculum? Hopefully so.
Mr. Ellenburg 8th grade. I remember him asking the class to read the chapter in class (not as homework) so that we could engage in supervised discussion I suppose.
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 10, 2012, 02:39:17 PM
Insightful post...
Custo, the problem is racism goes unnoticed.
Conan, do you think people change? He's certainly learned about diet.
Not following you here
Tulsa is a better place these days. I'd attribute it to the integration of schools which opened the door to communication and understanding. Our sanctuaries seem more tolerant as well. Unfortunately, the melt down of family and hard economic times sets progress back. The bigger conflict is between the haves and the have nots.
We were told the proper solution to racial divide and segregation is to bus black students into schools in predominantly white neighborhoods, and creating magnet schools in black neighborhoods to get white kids into schools in black neighborhoods.
Then the complaint becomes that busing is bad and we are no longer focusing on black neighborhoods because we are "decentralizing" their community schools and sending their best kids to schools in white neighborhoods.
Can't win.
Personally, I don't define myself as white, I'm a member of the human race, not the "white" race. Besides, I'm sort of a pinkish tan.
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 02:43:25 PM
I don't know why I felt the need to put a y in Watts. And my point is that there is a lot of stuff in history. There is a lot that I'm sure we have learned over the years, in school and elsewhere, that we can't even remember where we learned it, so it's easy to loose track of what gets taught where.
Lol- I actually googled Wyatt because I hadn't ever heard of that one before.
Yes there's a ton of history out there. All I can say is that when I did finally hear about the deadliest racial conflict in American history (It was a TV show in the early 90's), I was absolutely shocked to find out it happened in my hometown. That is something one does not tend to forget, and although we'd all rather highlight the beauty, architecture and rich heritage of Tulsa, it's dangerous to throw out an ugly part of the past because it's embarrassing or uncomfortable to talk about.
Quote from: Gaspar on April 10, 2012, 02:46:41 PM
Mr. Ellenburg 8th grade. I remember him asking the class to read the chapter in class (not as homework) so that we could engage in supervised discussion I suppose.
That's good to know, and sorry I missed it. I guess not every kid at Jenks was able to learn about it.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 02:54:11 PM
it's dangerous to throw out an ugly part of the past because it's embarrassing or uncomfortable to talk about.
Devil's advocate moment here: Why is it
dangerous? That's a really strong term.
I agree there has to be an awareness, but at some point you have to differentiate between awareness and obsession or exploitation to the detriment of current racial relations.
Maybe I'm simply too wrapped up in focusing on the many ways in which I'm alike other people rather than the few ways I differ that I'm simply a Pollyanna when it comes to race. ;)
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 02:06:47 PM
To me it seems the historian has a bias against Tulsa and is intent on painting the scene in a poor light, just from what you posted about him as it doesn't seem to accurately reflect what I see here.
I had the same feeling as I listened to the interview, but...I think there is a tiny bit of validity to his statement that whites in Tulsa would view this as a tragedy but not as an abberation. As a Tulsan it's hard for me to think that this type of hate could still exist in our city even though I know there are people with ignorant and bigoted additudes toward blacks, hispanics, muslims, jews, gays (etc) living here.
Do we have widespread bigotry in Tulsa? No. Do we have a complicated and painful history? Yes. Have we changed in pace with the rest of the nation? Maybe. We do have a lot of people that don't understand North Tulsa and are afraid of it. We do have pockets where all kinds of ignorance and bigotry flourish, where people cluster in areas with others of like minds.
As far as changing the name of the Brady district? Why not. If it helps to promote good will we should do it. We shouldn't hide from the past...but we also shouldn't slap each other in the face with things that are painful (intentionally or not).
IMO the entire northside of Downtown could be called "The Greenwood District".
Quote from: Conan71 on April 10, 2012, 03:07:58 PM
Devil's advocate moment here: Why is it dangerous? That's a really strong term.
I agree there has to be an awareness, but at some point you have to differentiate between awareness and obsession or exploitation to the detriment of current racial relations.
Maybe I'm simply too wrapped up in focusing on the many ways in which I'm alike other people rather than the few ways I differ that I'm simply a Pollyanna when it comes to race. ;)
Well to have an awareness, you first have to be taught about it....
Can you imagine if Germany did not teach their school children about race relations? Of course racism still exists in Germany, but it is so taboo because from early on, German kids are taught just how far hatred can go. I think we can all agree that's a good thing.
I don't think dangerous is too strong. Honestly, riots could happen again in Tulsa. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry from those living above Admiral, and that can probably be attributed mainly to the actions of law enforcement and the swift arrest of the shooters. Racial divide isn't something many people think about in Tulsa, and many other cities in the US, because mostly its neatly tucked away, and well guarded. Out of sight, out of mind. That is of course until something bad happens.
I did not grow up in Tulsa or Oklahoma, but how much Tulsa history was actually taught in school? If very little was taught, then little surprise there was nothing on the race riots. If you teach the race riots, then I think a broader Tulsa history should also be taught.
Quote from: DTowner on April 10, 2012, 03:38:58 PM
I did not grow up in Tulsa or Oklahoma, but how much Tulsa history was actually taught in school? If very little was taught, then little surprise there was nothing on the race riots. If you teach the race riots, then I think a broader Tulsa history should also be taught.
Three semesters of Oklahoma History in highschool. Learned the hell out of what boomers and sooners were. Tulsa race riot? Squat.
Quote from: Townsend on April 10, 2012, 03:43:20 PM
Three semesters of Oklahoma History in highschool. Learned the hell out of what boomers and sooners were. Tulsa race riot? Squat.
Liars and cheats lead the way in the Land of the Red Man ever since Statehood. ;)
Quote from: DTowner on April 10, 2012, 03:38:58 PM
I did not grow up in Tulsa or Oklahoma, but how much Tulsa history was actually taught in school? If very little was taught, then little surprise there was nothing on the race riots. If you teach the race riots, then I think a broader Tulsa history should also be taught.
I think it's required in elementary, junior and senior high, unless that's changed. Maybe they have combined it all into high school now? Regardless, quite a bit of state history is taught, especially considering Oklahoma is such a relatively new state. Isn't it odd that arguably one of the most important and poignant events is absent?
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 10, 2012, 02:39:17 PM
Insightful post...
Custo, the problem is racism goes unnoticed.
Conan, do you think people change? He's certainly learned about diet.
Tulsa is a better place these days. I'd attribute it to the integration of schools which opened the door to communication and understanding. Our sanctuaries seem more tolerant as well. Unfortunately, the melt down of family and hard economic times sets progress back. The bigger conflict is between the haves and the have nots.
What's worst, to have it go unnoticed or to claim everything is about race? I think it is far better to take care of the problem where it does exist and is prevalent and work our way down to the places it hides, but trying to look for it everywhere, despite if it exists or not, is futile. Worse yet, it undermines the legitimate efforts being done.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 03:55:05 PM
I think it's required in elementary, junior and senior high, unless that's changed. Maybe they have combined it all into high school now? Regardless, quite a bit of state history is taught, especially considering Oklahoma is such a relatively new state. Isn't it odd that arguably one of the most important and poignant events is absent?
Unless something's changed, Oklahoma works with the Texas state board of education for text books. This is why we learn about Texas independence et al way over Oklahoma history.
Quote from: Townsend on April 10, 2012, 03:57:31 PM
Unless something's changed, Oklahoma works with the Texas state board of education for text books. This is why we learn about Texas independence et al way over Oklahoma history.
Why is that not surprising?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/us/20tulsa.html?pagewanted=all
Interesting read from the NY Times on the 90th anniversary of the riots in 2011.
This article states that Tulsa Public schools will start teaching students about the race riot for the first time in 2012.
It also states that still only one of the three major textbook publishers includes information on the riot.
Quote from: Townsend on April 10, 2012, 03:43:20 PM
Three semesters of Oklahoma History in highschool. Learned the hell out of what boomers and sooners were. Tulsa race riot? Squat.
Was that Oklahoma history, or specifically Tulsa history?
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 03:57:20 PM
What's worst, to have it go unnoticed or to claim everything is about race? I think it is far better to take care of the problem where it does exist and is prevalent and work our way down to the places it hides, but trying to look for it everywhere, despite if it exists or not, is futile. Worse yet, it undermines the legitimate efforts being done.
Wrong logic. Who claims everything is about race? The Sanford situation is more about lousy police work. I don't even look for racism. But my eyes are keen to pick it up in places at times. Like Sunday morning when I read this nuts FB page before it disappeared and then realized this was a hate crime.
Quote from: DTowner on April 10, 2012, 04:17:05 PM
Was that Oklahoma history, or specifically Tulsa history?
Oklahoma. I'd expect some Tulsa history to be included.
Quote from: Townsend on April 10, 2012, 04:36:14 PM
Oklahoma. I'd expect some Tulsa history to be included.
Not if those books were written/approved by anyone down the TurnerPike.
We learned about the riots in school in TPS when I went to school in the 90's and early 00's.
Quote from: godboko71 on April 10, 2012, 04:53:46 PM
We learned about the riots in school in TPS when I went to school in the 90's and early 00's.
Lucky.
They probably took a look at me and my 80's classmates in mullets, acid wash cavaricci's, and rolled cuffs and said "only teach them things that won't make a difference".
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 10, 2012, 04:22:47 PM
Wrong logic. Who claims everything is about race? The Sanford situation is more about lousy police work. I don't even look for racism. But my eyes are keen to pick it up in places at times. Like Sunday morning when I read this nuts FB page before it disappeared and then realized this was a hate crime.
It still has not been determined if that was their motivation. While it is likely, we still don't have all of the facts, but it's not like you will wait for that before jumping on that train. And don't tell me you don't look for racism, you seem to see it in so many places, even where it does not exist.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on April 10, 2012, 03:31:55 PM
Can you imagine if Germany did not teach their school children about race relations? Of course racism still exists in Germany, but it is so taboo because from early on, German kids are taught just how far hatred can go. I think we can all agree that's a good thing.
I have a few friends in Germany. They are well aware of the Holocaust. They also do not get up each morning saying "What can we learn from the Holocaust today?" At least they didn't when I was visiting.
Quote from: custosnox on April 10, 2012, 02:06:47 PM
Just curious, did you learn of the Wyatt's Watts riots in public school? While I agree that we should learn our history, both good and bad, it seems that some of these things tend to get lost in the vastness of history that we need to learn.
The thing that really sticks with me from the news about the Watts riots on TV and Radio (yes, I listened to the first edition) was that those people burned down their houses and then complained they had no place to live. It struck me as odd behavior. There were some pretty bad neighborhoods in Philadelphia but at least they didn't burn down the only place they had to live. By then, the city was going through "Urban Renewal" and inexpensive places were going to be difficult to find.
Quote from: Red Arrow on April 10, 2012, 06:44:22 PM
I have a few friends in Germany. They are well aware of the Holocaust. They also do not get up each morning saying "What can we learn from the Holocaust today?" At least they didn't when I was visiting.
And that is the point. They were made well aware of what happened at an early age, so they could learn from it. OK school kids aren't even taught about what happened in their own back yard. How can we expect anything to change if we ignore it and just hope it doesn't happen again?
Also, I don't think anyone ever said we should wake up everyday and discuss our race issues ad nauseum. It's not an all or nothing proposition. The answer lies somewhere in the middle. Ignoring it completely is definitely not the answer though.
I was taught about the race riot three different times in elementry, middle, and high school.
Quote from: Red Arrow on April 10, 2012, 06:51:37 PM
those people burned down their houses and then complained they had no place to live.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the people complaining about not having a place to live were not in fact the same as those who burned down houses?
As I read this thread and see the different responses I begin to see generational differences. The race riot was taught in Jenks in the '80s. Or it wasn't taught in Jenks in the '80s. It was definitely taught in the '90s, in Jenks, anyway. But someone says that the TPS will teach it for the first time in 2012. I know it wasn't taught in my high school in Tulsa in the 1960s.
I grew up in Tulsa (wasn't born here) and graduated from a Tulsa high school in the late 1960s. Yes, that was a while ago but it seems recent. Though this was 15 years after the Supreme Court decided Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, KS, the Tulsa schools were still segregated. What did we learn about the race riots or anything else north of the tracks? Nothing. It wasn't in the books. It wasn't part of the conversation. At the time the Union district was a single red brick building out on far East 51st or 61st Street, I'm not sure which. The community of Alsuma was still there, a small enclave of black people living in what would soon be Southeast Tulsa. Jenks was a sleepy little place across the river from nothing and reachable over a small two-lane bridge.
Older, more established towns such as Muskogee and Okmulgee still had "Manual Arts" and "Dunbar" for their black students. The one exception was Sapulpa, which at the time had a great band program, a great wrestling tradition, and a terrible football team. It had earlier voluntarily desegregated rather than rebuild their black high school that had been lost to fire.
Desegregation began in Tulsa in the early 1970s. Coincidentally (or maybe not?), the rapid growth of the suburban districts such as Union and Jenks began in earnest. Years later, the suburban schools continue to flourish while the Tulsa schools struggle. Is "white flight" not an attribute of racism? It proved to be futile, but did lasting damage to previously thriving Tulsa schools.
On the subject of the race riot, I hosted a conference in Tulsa in the late 1990s. As hosts, we provided the conference attendees with a Saturday night barbeque dinner located on one of the building terraces overlooking Greenwood Avenue at OSU/Tulsa, and catered by Wilson's barbeque. The delegates loved the setting and the barbeque. To make things even better, the Greenwood Jazz Festival happened to be going on at the time, so some of us broke away from the party and strolled up and down Greenwood listening to the music and taking in the atmosphere of the place. One of the delegates was an African-American friend of mine from Washington, D.C. He kept looking around with wonder on his face. I asked him what he was thinking. He said, "We are walking on hallowed ground. I always dreamed of coming to see this place." Though by then I had long ago heard of the riots, I was impressed that the Tulsa race riots had been burned into the collective experience of African-Americans across the country but were not given much thought here.
Quote from: nathanm on April 10, 2012, 09:58:16 PM
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the people complaining about not having a place to live were not in fact the same as those who burned down houses?
Yes, I was corrected.
QuoteDesegregation began in Tulsa in the early 1970s. Coincidentally (or maybe not?), the rapid growth of the suburban districts such as Union and Jenks began in earnest. Years later, the suburban schools continue to flourish while the Tulsa schools struggle. Is "white flight" not an attribute of racism? It proved to be futile, but did lasting damage to previously thriving Tulsa schools.
I wrote a punk song about this in my more scrappy days.
Quote from: cynical on April 10, 2012, 10:44:44 PM
As I read this thread and see the different responses I begin to see generational differences. The race riot was taught in Jenks in the '80s. Or it wasn't taught in Jenks in the '80s. It was definitely taught in the '90s, in Jenks, anyway. But someone says that the TPS will teach it for the first time in 2012. I know it wasn't taught in my high school in Tulsa in the 1960s.
I grew up in Tulsa (wasn't born here) and graduated from a Tulsa high school in the late 1960s. Yes, that was a while ago but it seems recent. Though this was 15 years after the Supreme Court decided Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, KS, the Tulsa schools were still segregated. What did we learn about the race riots or anything else north of the tracks? Nothing. It wasn't in the books. It wasn't part of the conversation. At the time the Union district was a single red brick building out on far East 51st or 61st Street, I'm not sure which. The community of Alsuma was still there, a small enclave of black people living in what would soon be Southeast Tulsa. Jenks was a sleepy little place across the river from nothing and reachable over a small two-lane bridge.
Older, more established towns such as Muskogee and Okmulgee still had "Manual Arts" and "Dunbar" for their black students. The one exception was Sapulpa, which at the time had a great band program, a great wrestling tradition, and a terrible football team. It had earlier voluntarily desegregated rather than rebuild their black high school that had been lost to fire.
Desegregation began in Tulsa in the early 1970s. Coincidentally (or maybe not?), the rapid growth of the suburban districts such as Union and Jenks began in earnest. Years later, the suburban schools continue to flourish while the Tulsa schools struggle. Is "white flight" not an attribute of racism? It proved to be futile, but did lasting damage to previously thriving Tulsa schools.
On the subject of the race riot, I hosted a conference in Tulsa in the late 1990s. As hosts, we provided the conference attendees with a Saturday night barbeque dinner located on one of the building terraces overlooking Greenwood Avenue at OSU/Tulsa, and catered by Wilson's barbeque. The delegates loved the setting and the barbeque. To make things even better, the Greenwood Jazz Festival happened to be going on at the time, so some of us broke away from the party and strolled up and down Greenwood listening to the music and taking in the atmosphere of the place. One of the delegates was an African-American friend of mine from Washington, D.C. He kept looking around with wonder on his face. I asked him what he was thinking. He said, "We are walking on hallowed ground. I always dreamed of coming to see this place." Though by then I had long ago heard of the riots, I was impressed that the Tulsa race riots had been burned into the collective experience of African-Americans across the country but were not given much thought here.
I gather you went to Union in the 60's rather than a TPS school. I assure you all, and the author who wrote that the race riot will only now be taught in Tulsa schools, that it was covered in 1966 in a course at Wilson Jr. High called Oklahoma History I and II. To keep it in perspective, Wilson was entirely segregated as were all TPS schools below the ninth grade. However Tulsa high schools were being integrated at the time Cynic. Central was receiving black students from the Booker T area at that time and I believe one other school, probably Hale, also had a few students. I graduated in 69 at Central and we had about 12% black students, an all black basketball team and lots of interaction between races.
Mind you, very little was written about the race riot in Tulsa. In fact no more than a paragraph. The textbook probably pre-dated the Civil Rights movement. It was discussed as part of a generally unstable time period when WWI had ended and demonstrations and riots were breaking out all over the country. The text failed to mention the details, like it being the largest race riot in the country or specific actions. It was up to the teacher to elaborate or pass it over. Mine passed it over.
I discussed it with my parents who were native Tulsan's and found out it was a really big deal here in Tulsa. So did a lot of other students. We ended up doing our own research if you will. I remember being really pissed that so little had been mentioned in school but times were different. People were scared of the black community and embarassed about the city's history.
Quote from: Townsend on April 10, 2012, 03:57:31 PM
Unless something's changed, Oklahoma works with the Texas state board of education for text books. This is why we learn about Texas independence et al way over Oklahoma history.
This also is not exactly accurate. We don't work with the Texas school board to determine which text books are chosen. The textbook publishers simply are smart enough to realize that the Texas public school system is their largest prospect in this part of the country. If a text is too controversial for Texas, then it gets changed or discarded. I suspect that with the advent of digital publishing and tablets that the publishers will shortly be released from that hostage situation.
At the court house today.
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578633_10150789469693373_134853483372_11572445_360710967_n.jpg)
If these two men were black and the courts set BOND at $9,000,000 each, I'm willing to bet these same folks would be protesting the outrageous BOND level as . . .
Man, we've got an ugly courthouse.
Quote from: Townsend on April 11, 2012, 12:05:49 PM
Man, we've got an ugly courthouse.
...and what's with that in-your-face floodlight up on the balcony?
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578633_10150789469693373_134853483372_11572445_360710967_n.jpg)
That's got to really be good for security... NOT.
Our courthouse could use a little steam cleaning if nothing else.
Quote from: patric on April 11, 2012, 12:20:04 PM
...and what's with that in-your-face floodlight up on the balcony?
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578633_10150789469693373_134853483372_11572445_360710967_n.jpg)
That's got to really be good for security... NOT.
It probably hides a camera.
I thought Tulsa did pretty well with this whole episode. Even the comments made from the public were responsible and intelligible. I am surprised to see any protestors. We certainly did better than Sanford.
Guys, thats the library.
Quote from: jacobi on April 11, 2012, 12:57:00 PM
Guys, thats the library.
Gaspar....that's the library.
People are protesting our ugly library.
Quote from: AquaMan on April 11, 2012, 12:59:27 PM
Gaspar....that's the library.
You mean they are now "under attack" at the library too?
I would protest the library.
Books lead to thinking differently and we don't need any of that around here.
I'm sticking to magazines and newspapers.
Turley is their enemy not the ugly library. Turley is to library as library is to the blind.
QuoteYou mean they are now "under attack" at the library too?
You know they are at the same place, right?
An attorney buddy of mine just texted me and said that part of the group arrived at the parking lot across from the courthouse earlier this morning and asked one of his clients for directions to the courthouse. He thinks they are Sharpton's advance team, or as he put it. "They are opening for Sharpton."
I think Tulsa did quite well with this and continues to do well. The national media has done their best to try and stir up controversy, but most of the folks they've interviewed have been calm and recognized the tragedy for what it is. In fact, everyone from the police to the mayor, to the surviving victims, to their families, to the residents of North Tulsa and the surrounding communities have been. . .well. . .Tulsans.
We are sad, we are angry, we demand justice, but we are also reasonable, kind, and empathetic to the families of the victims. The crime sickens me but the way it is being handled makes me proud of my community.
Yes, truth is, even the Turley people seemed reasonable, surprised and normal. Good thing it didn't happen over in Oakhurst....
Quote from: Gaspar on April 11, 2012, 01:17:42 PM
An attorney buddy of mine just texted me and said that part of the group arrived at the parking lot across from the courthouse earlier this morning and asked one of his clients for directions to the courthouse. He thinks they are Sharpton's advance team, or as he put it. "They are opening for Sharpton."
I think Tulsa did quite well with this and continues to do well. The national media has done their best to try and stir up controversy, but most of the folks they've interviewed have been calm and recognized the tragedy for what it is. In fact, everyone from the police to the mayor, to the surviving victims, to their families, to the residents of North Tulsa and the surrounding communities have been. . .well. . .Tulsans.
We are sad, we are angry, we demand justice, but we are also reasonable, kind, and empathetic to the families of the victims. The crime sickens me but the way it is being handled makes me proud of my community.
$harpton's cadre of occupiers?
It's been handled well
thus far. Now we need a thug like $harpton to come in and make everyone believe this is all the result of underlying racism by the rest of us white folk in Tulsa? Really?
In spite of what the media and the race hustlers are trying to make of this, I'm starting to think after the way our citizens have handled this incident that Tulsa is much further ahead of the rest of the country in addressing racial issues.
I hope I'm off base here and the good reverend will have nothing but positive things to say. When is he scheduled to be here?
I thought I read somewhere that he will be there on Friday, the 13th. Coincidence? ;)
Quote from: Conan71 on April 11, 2012, 01:46:36 PM
I hope I'm off base here and the good reverend will have nothing but positive things to say. When is he scheduled to be here?
I suspect there will be at least something negative. After all, some white jackasses did decide it would be a great idea to drive around and shoot black people. However, the investigation was treated quite seriously and (seemingly) dealt with efficiently. It's nice to see a crime with black victims treated with the seriousness it deserves. All too often it is not.
Per the TW Jesse Jackson is joining the fun in Tulsa.
QuoteTwo heavy hitters in the national civil rights movement -- the Revs. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton -- will be in Tulsa this weekend in the wake of the Good Friday shootings that left three black people dead and two injured
So we've got that going for us. Maybe it'll rain all day...a lot.
Just a quick question. Did the Police ever get any information about who shot and killed that man at the Chicken Shack ? The one that people were stepping over to get their food order, but didnt see anything.
The code of silence out North only works one way. You wonder why these two POS got caught so fast ?
They finally talked and helped the Police.
Quote from: jacobi on April 11, 2012, 12:57:00 PM
Guys, thats the library.
The protestors are facing the courthouse.
That is the direction you would be facing if you were shooting at someone holding a gun sitting on one of the planters, if something like that were to happen... ::)
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2012/03/07/39/3f/librayr2_t960.jpg?43ffad5983be9db4d9a3e3fb9464e611547fef58)
No, I attended a large Tulsa high school in the late 60s. I took Oklahoma history. There was not a word about the riots.
Quote from: AquaMan on April 11, 2012, 10:19:36 AM
I gather you went to Union in the 60's rather than a TPS school. I assure you all, and the author who wrote that the race riot will only now be taught in Tulsa schools, that it was covered in 1966 in a course at Wilson Jr. High called Oklahoma History I and II. To keep it in perspective, Wilson was entirely segregated as were all TPS schools below the ninth grade. However Tulsa high schools were being integrated at the time Cynic. Central was receiving black students from the Booker T area at that time and I believe one other school, probably Hale, also had a few students. I graduated in 69 at Central and we had about 12% black students, an all black basketball team and lots of interaction between races.
Mind you, very little was written about the race riot in Tulsa. In fact no more than a paragraph. The textbook probably pre-dated the Civil Rights movement. It was discussed as part of a generally unstable time period when WWI had ended and demonstrations and riots were breaking out all over the country. The text failed to mention the details, like it being the largest race riot in the country or specific actions. It was up to the teacher to elaborate or pass it over. Mine passed it over.
I discussed it with my parents who were native Tulsan's and found out it was a really big deal here in Tulsa. So did a lot of other students. We ended up doing our own research if you will. I remember being really pissed that so little had been mentioned in school but times were different. People were scared of the black community and embarassed about the city's history.
Per KOTV tweet:
An assistant to Al Sharpton told News On 6 the civil rights leader hasn't yet confirmed that he will be able to make it to Tulsa.
Quote from: Townsend on April 11, 2012, 03:43:51 PM
Per KOTV tweet:
An assistant to Al Sharpton told News On 6 the civil rights leader hasn't yet confirmed that he will be able to make it to Tulsa.
HOORAY ! not enough boiling going on in our pot.
Quote from: DolfanBob on April 11, 2012, 03:46:26 PM
HOORAY ! not enough boiling going on in our pot.
That seems to be what attracts him most.
I'm going to see "The Three Stooges" with my Son Saturday.
And I hear two of them will be at a Church in North Tulsa also.
I told you Sharpton wouldn't come here.
NYtimes article in today on McLain area. Poverty sux. Makes people crazy.
I think my head just exploded.
Why not get the federal government to investigate why black people are many more times likely to be killed by another black person? I believe I read some DOJ stats recently a black person is five times more likely to be killed by another black person. There's a far bigger problem of black on black violence.
Secondly, whether we like it or not, these two scumbags have the right to have the case reviewed prior to any and all charges being filed. The DA says he's waiting on reports and evidence from the TPD prior to filing hate crime charges. The DA has to act within the law. Bringing in a couple of race-baiters and agitators does nothing but ratchet up fear and hatred.
Am I the only person who believes a visit by either $harpton or Jack$on will do nothing to improve racial relations in Tulsa? Someone explain how it would benefit. I honestly cannot believe the greater black community thinks of these two as leaders.
QuoteThe Rev. Jesse Jackson will be in town this weekend arguing that the federal government needs to get involved in Tulsa's Good Friday shooting spree that left three people dead.
Jackson will meet with north Tulsa ministers and elected officials at noon Friday at First Baptist Church North Tulsa, and will hold a public rally at the church at 6 p.m. Saturday.
He was invited to Tulsa by the State Legislative Black Caucus and local ministers.
Jackson said in a conference phone call Wednesday afternoon that the Tulsa shootings were not an isolated crime, but part of a pattern of attacks on blacks across the nation that the federal government needs to investigate.
"This year there have been 29 black men and one black woman killed by police," he said.
What in the hell does this have to do with the Tulsa case? NOTHING!
He listed several recent cases of violence against blacks, including the Trayvon Martin case, in which the black Forida teen was shot and killed in a gated community by a neighborhood watch member who is of Hispanic and white heritage.
"There are a number of unsolved murders of black people" in Oklahoma, he said.
There's a number of unsolved murders of white people, Asians, Native Americans, Hispanics, etc. ad nauseum.
"There is a pattern of attacks on blacks here, and that's why we're urging the Department of Justice and the FBI to intervene. It's not unlike the old South, where local officials spent an awful lot of time covering their tracks.
Anyone else seen any track covering here?
"What we really want is security and justice," he said.
The act of security in this case was very rapid. Justice is forthcoming.
"Frankly, I cannot separate these acts from the mean-spirited attacks on the president himself," he said. "He's called stupid, not a member of our religion, ... There's a toxic environment that's raining down."
Mmmhmmm politicking.
Jackson praised Tulsa authorities and police for moving quickly and apprehending two men early Sunday in the Tulsa shootings, but said it was just a first step, "given the pattern of violent behavior against black people."
He said his Rainbow PUSH Coalition is working to change laws on concealed weapons and assault rifles and "stand your ground" laws, which he called an incentive to vigilantism.
Those laws serve to protect black people as well, dingleberry. They are especially important in higher crime rate areas in which black people live to help them defend themselves from criminals in their own communities.
State Sen. Constance N. Johnson, D-Oklahoma City, chairwoman of the Black Caucus who was also on the conference call, commended local law enforcement, but said federal involvement was necessary to make sure justice is served in Tulsa courts.
No it's not necessary. I believe everyone involved in this case realizes the seriousness.
"This is a powder keg waiting to explode," she said. "We want to assure the community that we're taking every step possible to make sure this will be a fair and just process. And we feel the Department of Justice will bring that objectivity to the state."
It's only a powder keg if you keep trying to gin up anger and make it appear as if not enough is being done to bring the shooters to justice.
Both Jackson and the Black Caucus members expressed dismay that Tulsa officials have not yet labeled the Tulsa shootings a hate crime.
"If someone intentionally goes looking for black people for revenge, shoots five and kills three, that's evidence of a hate crime and intentionality. ... That's fairly clear-cut," Jackson said.
Uh, ever hear of due process? Helps to have all the facts at hand. Once the DA has all the facts from the PD, I'm pretty sure there will be additional charges added.
"If the shoe had been on the other foot," he said, if it had been white victims of blacks, it would have been immediately labeled a hate crime.
::)
Johnson said she was "astonished at the delay to label it a hate crime."
"We're going to review the hate crimes statute to see what is causing the Tulsa DA to not label this a hate crime," she said.
Contacted at his office Wednesday, Tulsa County District Attorney Tim Harris said it would be inappropriate for him to label the shootings a hate crime based on media reports.
"I will only make a decision based on sufficient investigation, and so far I've received nothing from the Tulsa Police Department," he said. "We're told that it's forthcoming."
"If the evidence supports a hate crime, I'll file a hate crime," he said.
Gwendolyn Fields, with the Advocacy Council in Oklahoma City, said the hate crime designation expresses the social values of a society, and if this is not prosecuted as a hate crime, it will show "disregard for the larger civil rights picture."
State Rep. Seneca Scott, who represents District 72, where the shootings occurred, said he will be looking at the hate crimes statute, and "what it takes to have a very clear protocol of when crimes are hate crimes. Now there is a degree of ambiguity," he said.
"The naming of it as a hate crime is pretty clear," he said. "If not this one, then what would be?"
Jackson is not the only high profile civil rights leader coming to Tulsa in the aftermath of the shootings.
The Rev. Al Sharpton will speak at a public meeting at 3 p.m. Sunday at Greater Union Baptist Church, 955 E. 36th St. North, along with the national president of the NAACP, Benjamin Jealous, said Greater Union Pastor Bob Kendrick, Sr.
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=704&articleid=20120412_18_A1_CUTLIN982552
Quote from: Conan71 on April 12, 2012, 09:41:17 AM
I think my head just exploded.
Why not get the federal government to investigate why black people are many more times likely to be killed by another black person? I believe I read some DOJ stats recently a black person is five times more likely to be killed by another black person. There's a far bigger problem of black on black violence.
Secondly, whether we like it or not, these two scumbags have the right to have the case reviewed prior to any and all charges being filed. The DA says he's waiting on reports and evidence from the TPD prior to filing hate crime charges. The DA has to act within the law. Bringing in a couple of race-baiters and agitators does nothing but ratchet up fear and hatred.
Am I the only person who believes a visit by either $harpton or Jack$on will do nothing to improve racial relations in Tulsa? Someone explain how it would benefit. I honestly cannot believe the greater black community thinks of these two as leaders.
Like any religious leader/entertainer, if they lose relevance, they don't make money. Gotta keep it out there.
So here are a few things that bother me, the protest, Blacks are Under Attack because a 9M+ bond was set? let me refresh some memories here . . . Darren Price, one of the shooters who executed two white ORU students in Hicks Park, and then was interviewed about how he lets his daughter play at that park and can't believe something like this would happen . . .
Name: PRICE, DARREN Gender: M Race: B
D.O.B.: 5/11/1992 Height: 5' 09" Weight: 210
DLM: 1202711 Hair: BLK Eyes: BRO
Offenses
Description Case # Court Date Bond Type Bond Amt Disposition
MURDER 1ST DEGREE CF11-3734 4/26/2012 Surety Bond $1,000,000.00
MURDER 1ST DEGREE CF11-3734 4/26/2012 Surety Bond $1,000,000.00
ROBBERY CF11-3734 4/26/2012 $25,000.00
ROBBERY CF11-3734 4/26/2012 $25,000.00
POSS FIREARM AFCF CF11-3734 4/26/2012 Surety Bond $10,000.00
ELUDING CF11-3734 4/26/2012 Surety Bond $500.00
CHEROKEE COUNTY/KIDNAPPING $0.00
My husband reminded me last night they are looking for more suspects in the Straight murder and assault. If you know the details about, it should make you physically ill. Where is the disgust with that? Why is a black man who picks out a white couple living in that area not a hate crime?
The point is, I don't want to live and evaluate every situation like that. But right now it's being forced down my throat. I think the guys picked their area for two reasons, one . . Cherokee Manor is where his father was killed, that's where the first victim was shot. Also, they live in flipping Turley, you think they are going to go far from home and their escape? I fully believe if this circumstance was different and the shooters lived in Glenpool and their father was killed by a white person at 111th & Yale, they'd be near that area shooting whoever they could find, and ya know, demographics of that area show there's a pretty big chance the victims would be white.
And finally the NAACP president owes our Police Department a sincere apology. How dare he say North Tulsa leaders had to get involved because they don't trust TPD and didn't want this swept under the rug? Really, a triple homicide, show me anywhere anyone has ever questioned the integrity of our homicide unit, their excellent solve rate . . . long before you were picking out your clothes for the photo ops, our officers had been running non stop since 1:00 am hunting down the killers. The Homicide Unit and Warrants and many other clocked in about 1 am and didn't leave again until 8 am Sunday morning . . . not for one moment.
TF- I don't see how anyone could fault the work of the TPD or DA's office at this point. It's obvious proper priority was placed on the case and the DA is awaiting all proper evidence which will help avoid any claims of civil rights violations or irregularities as a possible defense for the suspects. Myself and others I've talked to thought a $9+ million bond each made a far bigger statement than "no bond" in this incident.
I'm hoping both these jokers will spare us a trial, plead guilty and go away for the rest of their natural lives.
Anyone know if the White Officer's Coalition and the Congressional White Caucus ever weighed in on the Hicks Park killings?
Oh, yeah that's right, we don't have either of those organizations because they would be exclusionary and racist. ::)
The NAACP president called his meeting on Saturday morning, while our guys were still busting their balls trying to figure this out and catch the killers . . . . and I agree, no one can fight for justice of the white man, because that's racist . . . . we can't we just fight for justice for all? Oh wait, we don't even say the pledge anymore because we might offend someone ... PULLING MY HAIR OUT!!! I stay out of this crap because it makes me CRAZY!!!!!!
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 12, 2012, 09:32:29 AM
I told you Sharpton wouldn't come here.
NYtimes article in today on McLain area. Poverty sux. Makes people crazy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/tulsa-shootings-came-in-struggling-neighborhoods.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120412
Quote from: patric on April 12, 2012, 11:30:35 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/tulsa-shootings-came-in-struggling-neighborhoods.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120412
They certainly can paint a grim picture. We are evil evil evil here in Tulsa.
Quotettp://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/tulsa-shootings-came-in-struggling-neighborhoods.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120412
I feel freakin' picked on. Tell me about all the completely occupied and affluent areas of uptown and the south bronx, NYT? You must be a model of racial intergration, right? More than anything, we know! We know that North Tulsa has it bad! But, there isn't much that we as individuals can do about it. Our city is in shock, proud of our police response, and still mourning and you kick us in the nuts? Thanks NYT, see if I do your crossword puzzle again.
Alright, I'll do the crossword, damnit...
>:(
Interesting how Rev. Jack$on is against stand your ground laws. Ironically, Pernell Jefferson was not charged in the death of England's father ostensibly because such a law exists.
QuoteThe attacks occurred the day after the two-year anniversary of the death of Mr. England's father, Carl. The elder Mr. England was shot and killed on April 5, 2010, at a public housing apartment complex near the scene of the shootings, and the man who was a person of interest in the case, Pernell Jefferson, is black. The Tulsa County District Attorney's Office declined to file homicide charges against Mr. Jefferson, ruling that he was justified in using deadly force in self-defense under Oklahoma law.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 12, 2012, 09:41:17 AM
Those laws serve to protect black people as well, dingleberry. They are especially important in higher crime rate areas in which black people live to help them defend themselves from criminals in their own communities.
Those laws often don't serve to protect black people. Blacks are much more likely to be found to not be protected by SYG laws, for whatever reason. That doesn't appear to be the case in Oklahoma, but it has been the case in several southern states where you'd expect the racists to be out in force so his opposition is quite understandable, although largely irrelevant to the case at hand.
As I mentioned previously in the thread, I used to not really believe in the pervasiveness of racism in the modern day US. What made it possible to accept was this only marginally related train of thought: I have never in my life seen someone catcall a woman. Ever. Not even in NYC, where everyone says it is nearly constant. Women, however, tell me that it happens
to them almost daily. Clearly they're either liars or I just don't notice when it happens because I'm not the one being harassed. So I learned to accept that things happen to women that I don't notice.
It wasn't long before I realized I was making the same oversight with regard to racism. I pretty much have a choice. I can either believe that Sharpton and millions of black people are all liars who exaggerate the incidence of racism in their daily experience or I can believe what they're telling me, that racism still impacts them on an almost daily basis.
Arguing with people about their personal experience is unproductive, to say the least.
Do you have DOJ stats to back that up on SYG? I've not seen them.
I suppose it depends on the filter one views life through. If you have others constantly telling you it's a racist world and you will never catch a break because of your skin color, national origin, or sex then you will eventually believe that. None of my black friends seem to operate from that point of view, but they are mostly college educated and came from traditional family units, or grew up in the islands and migrated here so they didn't come from the ghetto.
If a black person applies for a welding position at my company and he's never welded a bead in his life, it's not discrimination against his color why he's not hired, it's because he doesn't have the necessary skills. He certainly can leave and say he wasn't hired because there are no other black people working here, therefore we must all be racists and have racist hiring practices.
If a black couple gets inattentive service at a restaurant or bar, they can make the assumption they are getting poor service because they are black or they can look around and see the server is obviously stoned and giving everyone in her station poor service. etc.
If your first reaction to everything which goes wrong in your life is because of your skin color, that's a really sad existence. Shame on the people who preach such a hopeless message.
JMO, I think people like $harpton and Jack$on are poor representatives of the black community because they spew a message of hatred, retribution, and hopelessness and seldom seem to be in touch with reality as it relates to due process and criminal and civil law. The whole purpose of Jack$on's visit, aside from keeping money flowing into his coffers, is to make it appear as if Tulsa still has this dark cloak of racism that's everywhere and which is ultimately responsible for this crime. I'm sorry but I'm pretty livid at that sort of stupid wholesale logic which strives to make you and I as culpable in this triple homicide as the two asshats who committed the crime. Did you help foment this? I sure didn't.
What if this had been two black men who committed the crime with the same motive? Is that not a hate-motivated crime? Why does hatred have to be defined by color, sex, or sexual orientation?
I'm sick and tired of black people being mired in poverty and crime while being lied to that it's whitey keeping them from leaving the projects when it's their own apathy toward education and not being willing to provide a positive role model for their own children. Talk about a message of hopelessness. People are as free to leave that existence as they are aware it's possible to.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 12, 2012, 03:43:46 PM
I'm sick and tired of black people being mired in poverty and crime while being lied to that it's whitey keeping them from leaving the projects when it's their own apathy toward education and not being willing to provide a positive role model for their own children. Talk about a message of hopelessness. People are as free to leave that existence as they are aware it's possible to.
Well, if free to do something means working against a system stacked against you in almost every way, from the acceptance of lower school performance in black neighborhoods to the lack of public transportation, to the much greater chance of being harassed by the police, then yes, they are in fact free to do it. However, in recognition of the actual human condition, I'm not going to hold it against somebody if they don't have the mental strength to navigate layer upon layer of BS that the rest of us don't have to deal with. I'm not going to hold it against them if they have little time for self improvement because they spend four hours a day on the bus getting to and from work because our bus system is so poorly funded.
The mere fact that it is often seen as exceptional when someone does make it out of the ghetto should give you some indication as to how difficult and rare this is.
Quote from: nathanm on April 12, 2012, 03:57:25 PM
Well, if free to do something means working against a system stacked against you in almost every way, from the acceptance of lower school performance in black neighborhoods to the lack of public transportation, to the much greater chance of being harassed by the police, then yes, they are in fact free to do it. However, in recognition of the actual human condition, I'm not going to hold it against somebody if they don't have the mental strength to navigate layer upon layer of BS that the rest of us don't have to deal with. I'm not going to hold it against them if they have little time for self improvement because they spend four hours a day on the bus getting to and from work because our bus system is so poorly funded.
The mere fact that it is often seen as exceptional when someone does make it out of the ghetto should give you some indication as to how difficult and rare this is.
But the fact is, white people who live in the same depressed areas face the same struggles to get out as their black neighbors. It's more a pathological poverty issue, not something caused by the color of their skin. I'd also argue it's easier for a black child from the same housing project to get financial aid for college than a white child, or for a black person to get a civil service job than their white neighbor due to EOE and AA. That's why the notion that their skin color is keeping them down makes me bristle.
As far as four hours spent riding a bus, even a marginal bicycle rider can make 10 MPH average on a $40 bike from Craigslist. Couldn't resist. Yes, I do plan on riding to work even when it's bitter cold so long as there isn't snow or ice on the ground. But, point taken that without a form of personal transportation it can be hard to get around in a timely manner. ;)
A Marshall's for my friend Conan ! Kudos. I truly do not know from what cloth we are cut. But it comes from the same origin.
According to the Tulsa World, hate crime charges have been added.
Next complaint will be that it took a week and only happened because $harpton and Jack$on got involved.
It's almost as if some people think due process should be applied selectively.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 13, 2012, 01:08:24 PM
According to the Tulsa World, hate crime charges have been added.
Next complaint will be that it took a week and only happened because $harpton and Jack$on got involved.
It's almost as if some people think due process should be applied selectively.
Its what? A misdemeanor? Maybe they can add some charges for torching the truck without a burn permit.
Quote from: AquaMan on April 13, 2012, 01:12:04 PM
Its what? A misdemeanor? Maybe they can add some charges for torching the truck without a burn permit.
Good one! I'm sure they are considering it!
DA's office is requesting denial of bond for both defendants:
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/1203/motion%20for%20no%20bond.pdf
List of charges filed:
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/1203/englandwattsinfo.pdf
And of course the requisite interjection by one of my favorite people:
QuoteCivil rights activist Rev. Je$$e Jack$on, who is in Tulsa this weekend and attended Clark's funeral Friday morning, said he is glad to hear charges were filed by the DA.
"They should have been filed," Jack$on said. "An act of revenge is an act of hate regarding innocent people. This is a big step in the right direction."
http://www.newson6.com/story/17410728/tulsa-da-files-charges-against-north-tulsa-alleged-shooters
Translated: "If the shooters were black, they'd have had the charges filed when they were stuffing them in the cop car! Why did this take a WHOLE week?!?!"
Quote from: Conan71 on April 13, 2012, 01:22:08 PM
Good one! I'm sure they are considering it!
Is the younger assailant to old to be prosecuted for a curfew violation?
Quote from: Conan71 on April 13, 2012, 01:29:07 PM
Translated: "If the shooters were black, they'd have had the charges filed when they were stuffing them in the cop car! Why did this take a WHOLE week?!?!"
So rather than be annoyed by the stuff Sharpton actually says, you feel the need to make stuff up to be annoyed about? I would have thought there was enough material to not require the manufacture of more.
Of course I engaged in a bit of absurdity!
You think either one of these jokers is going to say they are completely happy with the way this has been handled and that Tulsa has about as peaceful of race relations as you will find anywhere in the continental United States? Of course not. They will keep whipping the winds of racism to keep themselves relevant.
They would be far more productive to focus on black-on-black violence as that's a far bigger problem than white-on-black violence. That's not as sensational though.
I have to point out something:
Go read the third post on this thread. Go ahead. I'll wait.
Conan can see the future! Tell me, oh sage, when will the bottom drop out of the energy market due to china's housing market collapsing? How badly will dewey lose the election?
All hail the new oracle at Delphi Fat Guy's.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 13, 2012, 02:38:48 PM
They will keep whipping the winds of racism to keep themselves relevant.
Perhaps, but that's not what happened in this instance. It makes you seem a little deranged when you go off on someone for doing that thing that annoys you so very much when they are not presently doing that thing that annoys you so very much.
Quote from: jacobi on April 13, 2012, 02:53:28 PM
I have to point out something:
Go read the third post on this thread. Go ahead. I'll wait.
Conan can see the future! Tell me, oh sage, when will the bottom drop out of the energy market due to china's housing market collapsing? How badly will dewey lose the election?
All hail the new oracle at Delphi Fat Guy's.
Did I win an Atlas IPA?
Dewey loses by 20 points, gasoline back to $2.50 by labor day, and I bet I will have a Cubano sandwich by the end of this weekend ;)
Quote from: nathanm on April 13, 2012, 02:54:54 PM
Perhaps, but that's not what happened in this instance. It makes you seem a little deranged when you go off on someone for doing that thing that annoys you so very much when they are not presently doing that thing that annoys you so very much.
That voodoo that you do?
That's fine if you don't wish to indulge my preemptive strike. ;) Let's revisit this discussion on Monday and see how far off base I am about their respective visits then.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 13, 2012, 02:59:54 PM
Let's revisit this discussion on Monday and see how far off base I am about their respective visits then.
If they complain about the investigation so far, I'll join you in pointing and laughing.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 13, 2012, 02:57:50 PM
Dewey loses by 20 points
(https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTeA2EN7qxMf7uXhKXSK4lxGrYceFwtI_gS9q74-Hif5WD_xSWW)
Sharpton cancelled.
No national coverage here?
Quote from: Townsend on April 13, 2012, 03:23:59 PM
Sharpton cancelled.
No national coverage here?
His advance team must have reported failure in starting a pancake-storm.
Quote from: Townsend on April 13, 2012, 03:23:59 PM
Sharpton cancelled.
No national coverage here?
Had to get back to FL where they money shots are, now that Zimmerman is being charged.
Not to worry, Roy Clark and Leon Russell are in town and much more entertaining.
Quote from: DolfanBob on April 12, 2012, 05:00:51 PM
A Marshall's for my friend Conan ! Kudos. I truly do not know from what cloth we are cut. But it comes from the same origin.
cut from the same rag...
Morning addition played Steve Inskeep's interview with Dewey today. I was really rooting for the Mayor and he started out strong. ::)
supposedly the race relations here aren't as good as we think they are
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Survey-on-Tulsa-race-relations-released/ulsaPmlIGEyw9VYJA5VPow.cspx
Quote from: custosnox on April 19, 2012, 04:31:37 PM
supposedly the race relations here aren't as good as we think they are
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Survey-on-Tulsa-race-relations-released/ulsaPmlIGEyw9VYJA5VPow.cspx
Not when you stand at Pine and Peoria and take the survey...
And this is run by a Black man.
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/
Quote from: ZYX on April 19, 2012, 04:37:07 PM
Not when you stand at Pine and Peoria and take the survey...
Read
before snarking. Or is that out of fashion nowadays?
http://www.jhfcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Tulsa-Race-Relations-2011.pdf
Quote from: nathanm on April 19, 2012, 05:02:10 PM
Read before snarking. Or is that out of fashion nowadays?
http://www.jhfcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Tulsa-Race-Relations-2011.pdf
Why so many women. And I don't know the population densities, but it seems there is a disproportional amount of respondents from North and NW Tulsa.
Quote from: nathanm on April 19, 2012, 05:02:10 PM
Read before snarking. Or is that out of fashion nowadays?
http://www.jhfcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Tulsa-Race-Relations-2011.pdf
Thanks for providing the link. I enjoyed the read, but I still think its mostly rubbish.
Quote from: erfalf on April 19, 2012, 05:13:33 PM
Why so many women. And I don't know the population densities, but it seems there is a disproportional amount of respondents from North and NW Tulsa.
I agree. That seemed a little odd. I think an equal amount from all over the city would have painted a more honest picture.
Quote from: ZYX on April 19, 2012, 07:20:15 PM
I agree. That seemed a little odd. I think an equal amount from all over the city would have painted a more honest picture.
Please explain what difference you would expect to see in the results and how it would have affected the numbers presented.
Quote from: nathanm on April 20, 2012, 04:38:09 PM
Please explain what difference you would expect to see in the results and how it would have affected the numbers presented.
I simply believe the city, not a part of the city, would have been better represented. For instance, I think the large respondents of blacks thinking they are talked about unfairly in the media, would have been different had more black respondents come from South Tulsa or Midtown.
How about this as a solution to the "problem." People need to freakin' start ignoring the color of their and others' skin. I don't care what color anyone is. The color of your skin has nothing to do with your ability to succeed, and I'm sick and tired of it being an excuse.
Quote from: ZYX on April 20, 2012, 04:53:02 PM
How about this as a solution to the "problem." People need to freakin' start ignoring the color of their and others' skin. I don't care what color anyone is. The color of your skin has nothing to do with your ability to succeed, and I'm sick and tired of it being an excuse.
Surely you didn't mean to say this, but what I understand you to be saying is that you think minorities who talk about the discrimination and other challenges they face are liars.
This comes to mind as a suggestion:
Quote from: nathanm on April 20, 2012, 05:03:17 PM
Surely you didn't mean to say this, but what I understand you to be saying is that you think minorities who talk about the discrimination and other challenges they face are liars.
This comes to mind as a suggestion:
Your video link is broken. I guess I'm fortunate(?) enough to have been born white. I don't think they're lying when they say they face discrimination, but I think it is a card played too frequently.
I've been discriminated against and had racial slurs used against me quite a few times before. I agree not as frequently or severe, but sometimes it's something you have to suck up and move on. It does no good to dwell on it.
Quote from: ZYX on April 20, 2012, 05:17:36 PM
I've been discriminated against and had racial slurs used against me quite a few times before. I agree not as frequently or severe, but sometimes it's something you have to suck up and move on. It does no good to dwell on it.
As Louis CK has said: "I'm a white
man, how many advantages could one person have? You can't even hurt my
feelings. What can you call a white man that really digs deep? 'Hey, cracker!' 'Oh, ruined m' day. Boy shouldn't have called me a cracker. Bringing me back to owning land and people. What a drag.'"
That's not to diminish any discrimination that you have personally faced, but it's not the same when it doesn't appear to have the force of much of society behind it. Trying to raise awareness of the continuing racism in our society is not dwelling on the past or making excuses, it's dealing with the very real problems that still confront minorities in this country, both due to the increasing acceptance of poverty and the ever present latent racism in the criminal justice system.
If someone calls me a honky or whatever, it's easy to brush off. When 20 people have looked askance at you today because of the color of your skin, it's a lot harder to just let it go.
One of the great advantages of being white is just that. You might occasionally face racism, but the vast majority of the time you don't have to see it, deal with it, or even think about it if you don't want to. It isn't being foisted upon you by countless people every day. Even when it results in concrete harm, you're probably in a better position to handle it. You don't have to deal with the assholes stuck in 1955 who think that black people shouldn't be allowed to work indoors except as a servant.
We would have a much better country if that were true for everyone.
Quote from: nathanm on April 20, 2012, 05:40:07 PM
As Louis CK has said: "I'm a white man, how many advantages could one person have? You can't even hurt my feelings. What can you call a white man that really digs deep? 'Hey, cracker!' 'Oh, ruined m' day. Boy shouldn't have called me a cracker. Bringing me back to owning land and people. What a drag.'"
That's not to diminish any discrimination that you have personally faced, but it's not the same when it doesn't appear to have the force of much of society behind it. Trying to raise awareness of the continuing racism in our society is not dwelling on the past or making excuses, it's dealing with the very real problems that still confront minorities in this country, both due to the increasing acceptance of poverty and the ever present latent racism in the criminal justice system.
If someone calls me a honky or whatever, it's easy to brush off. When 20 people have looked askance at you today because of the color of your skin, it's a lot harder to just let it go.
One of the great advantages of being white is just that. You might occasionally face racism, but the vast majority of the time you don't have to see it, deal with it, or even think about it if you don't want to. It isn't being foisted upon you by countless people every day. Even when it results in concrete harm, you're probably in a better position to handle it. You don't have to deal with the assholes stuck in 1955 who think that black people shouldn't be allowed to work indoors except as a servant.
We would have a much better country if that were true for everyone.
I think what he is talking about are all the ones that use their color as an excuse, that no matter what they bring the race card into it, or try to make it a race issue when it's really not. It's funny how when chasing down a bounty how many times I heard "your buggin me because I'm black," despite the fact that I was after them, just like everyone else I tracked down, because they chose to skip bail. Another one who went off on me because I was staring off into space in their general direction, but I was "watching them" because they were "black."
You bring up the use of racial slurs, which I find interesting. When a group of a particular color keep using a word but say someone of another color isn't allowed to, isn't that in itself racial?
Also, I would say that the minorities are not the only ones that are effected adversely by racism. I have suffered extreme racism while working at one of the casinos (hence why I really don't like the casinos). I have also been fired from a job because a very racist black guy tried to claim I was racist, and made up crap saying I said and did things I did not do. Without any kind of proof, they took his side. Gee, I wonder why, especially after he made a Johnny Caucherin reference.
Quote from: custosnox on April 20, 2012, 09:29:20 PM
I think what he is talking about are all the ones that use their color as an excuse, that no matter what they bring the race card into it, or try to make it a race issue when it's really not. It's funny how when chasing down a bounty how many times I heard "your buggin me because I'm black," despite the fact that I was after them, just like everyone else I tracked down, because they chose to skip bail. Another one who went off on me because I was staring off into space in their general direction, but I was "watching them" because they were "black."
It reminds me a bit of a story about a boy who called "wolf".
Quote from: custosnox on April 20, 2012, 09:29:20 PM
Also, I would say that the minorities are not the only ones that are effected adversely by racism. I have suffered extreme racism while working at one of the casinos (hence why I really don't like the casinos). I have also been fired from a job because a very racist black guy tried to claim I was racist, and made up crap saying I said and did things I did not do. Without any kind of proof, they took his side. Gee, I wonder why, especially after he made a Johnny Caucherin reference.
Yes, some assholes happen to also be minorities. It sucks that that guy did that to you.
And nobody's stopping you from saying any word or combination of words you like, this being a free country. However, if you say something that only an a**hole would say, expect to be thought of as an a**hole. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
Quote from: nathanm on April 21, 2012, 12:50:41 AM
Yes, some assholes happen to also be minorities. It sucks that that guy did that to you.
And nobody's stopping you from saying any word or combination of words you like, this being a free country. However, if you say something that only an a**hole would say, expect to be thought of as an a**hole. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
For a minority, they sure do make the claim increasingly ridiculous.
My point of the use of words is that it is often perfectly fine for one to say it yet not for another because of the color of their skin, which in itself is a racial perspective And for the record, I'm proud of my a**hole status.