How do you intend to deal with the pain at the pump as gas prices keep rising? Drive less? Buy a more fuel-efficient vehicle? Better trip and errand planning? Take mass transit? Walk/bike/run?
We'd gotten off topic on another discussion about my neighborhood (Lortondale) being sort of a micro city with everything I need within a comfortable bicycle ride a week or two back.
Since yesterday was such a nice day, FMC and I decided to see how practical that could be on our vintage "tank bikes". We rode from 27th & Darlington up to Hudson, over 31st St. at Hudson, around the traffic circle at 36th and to the Reasor's at 41st & Yale. We got what groceries we needed and fit them in our back packs. Went to Sports Authority for ping pong balls for the cats (great cat toys, if you've never tried it) rode west on 41st to Whiteside, then meandered to 27th & Harvard to Braum's for milk & OJ, then back home. Then we rode around for another hour around the neighborhood.
Once I find a couple of baskets for the bikes, we can get bigger items. One thing we didn't have room for was a big jug of cat litter, so we saved that trip for later in the day when I needed to run to Lowe's with the car. Higher gas prices won't affect me adversely financially, if anything they result in an uptick in business where I work.
As well, FMC is in the process of moving here at a pretty good time which means the days of one of us commuting every weekend are pretty well over which will result in more savings. Both our cars get fairly good mileage, but we do get an obvious health benefit from cycling. I also figure by being forced to buy fewer groceries at a time due to limited carrying capacity on a bike, that means less likelihood of spoilage when you are only buying a few days groceries at a time.
I figured it was finally time to quit talking about doing more bike commuting and doing it. Great time of year for it.
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/IMG_1699.jpg)
Bravo for you. Most Americans only see bicycles as exercise, not as transport. I see pictures of bicyclists in other countries and they all have bikes with baskets. I never see them in this country.
I think we need to get pictures of celebrities riding bikes with baskets. Making them cool would change our ways.
I like your approach to this topic; rising fuel prices are inevitable regardless of the promises of any particular politician, regardless of stripe. Any plan to keep prices low will always be temporary due to the nature of the resource.
Taking my bike rather than my car makes each trip more of an adventure and less of a chore (weather permitting). I experience the world differently, I see things I wouldn't notice behind the wheel. Currently I also keep my purchases to what i can carry on my back, but I plan to buy a rack and some paniers to be able to carrier more (like a six-pack or bottle of vodka or gallon of milk). Meeting friends for a drink is almost always done by bike rather than car, trips downtown are done on bike (hassle free parking!). Saturday I rode my bike to Turkey Mountain to meet a friend for a hike along the trails.
Eventually my old Pathfinder will need to be replaced. I hope that when I'm ready to buy a new vehicle that there will be more choices for alternative fuel vehichles, and I'm leaning towards that type of purchase over a traditional gasoline only powered combustion engine. I promise not to produce too much "smug".
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSMfsKe23IGQw6wvdS7Lr0_bhqiyCk9Bj-QHl7sWd884Q5Mw8UP2g)
Quote from: carltonplace on February 27, 2012, 01:00:52 PM
I like your approach to this topic; rising fuel prices are inevitable regardless of the promises of any particular politician, regardless of stripe. Any plan to keep prices low will always be temporary due to the nature of the resource.
Taking my bike rather than my car makes each trip more of an adventure and less of a chore (weather permitting). I experience the world differently, I see things I wouldn't notice behind the wheel. Currently I also keep my purchases to what i can carry on my back, but I plan to buy a rack and some paniers to be able to carrier more (like a six-pack or bottle of vodka or gallon of milk). Meeting friends for a drink is almost always done by bike rather than car, trips downtown are done on bike (hassle free parking!). Saturday I rode my bike to Turkey Mountain to meet a friend for a hike along the trails.
Eventually my old Pathfinder will need to be replaced. I hope that when I'm ready to buy a new vehicle that there will be more choices for alternative fuel vehichles, and I'm leaning towards that type of purchase over a traditional gasoline only powered combustion engine. I promise not to produce too much "smug".
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSMfsKe23IGQw6wvdS7Lr0_bhqiyCk9Bj-QHl7sWd884Q5Mw8UP2g)
Too much smug, love it!
Most people don't realize you really can get just about anywhere in Tulsa from the middle of town in about 30 minutes or less by bike. No I'm not trying to become a bicycle activist, but rather an advocate. I can definitely see the health benefits since I started riding seriously 2 1/2 years ago. I've primarily ridden for recreation or when I would commute to work last summer it was part of training for a major event and I needed every extra training mile I could get.
One other thing impressed me: As FMC and I rode through the parking lot of the center the Reasor's is in, I was wondering if they had a sign or something to lock our bikes to and was impressed to learn they had a bike rack out front. I think it's pretty cool stores will cater to cyclists somewhat. I've noticed the rack is almost always 1/2 full at Whole Paycheck, that really isn't much of a surprise though.
I suspect my car mileage will drop by at least 1/2 or more this year. Over the last 12 months, I clocked just about 30,000. The every-other week commute to OKC didn't help, but I also had quite a few longer trips via car. The only long car trip we have planned for this year is Colorado in August. I was in the high country six times this last year.
For me, it's somewhat of a return to my roots. I used to ride everywhere when I was a child. We lived at 25th & Delaware until I was 11, I'd ride to Barnard Elementary, Utica Square, Steve's Sundries, plus I had a paper route I did on the bike. Of course that's back before we had all the worries in letting our kids out of our sight as we do now.
Quote from: Conan71 on February 27, 2012, 01:25:21 PM
Too much smug, love it!
Most people don't realize you really can get just about anywhere in Tulsa from the middle of town in about 30 minutes or less by bike. No I'm not trying to become a bicycle activist, but rather an advocate. I can definitely see the health benefits since I started riding seriously 2 1/2 years ago. I've primarily ridden for recreation or when I would commute to work last summer it was part of training for a major event and I needed every extra training mile I could get.
One other thing impressed me: As FMC and I rode through the parking lot of the center the Reasor's is in, I was wondering if they had a sign or something to lock our bikes to and was impressed to learn they had a bike rack out front. I think it's pretty cool stores will cater to cyclists somewhat. I've noticed the rack is almost always 1/2 full at Whole Paycheck, that really isn't much of a surprise though.
I suspect my car mileage will drop by at least 1/2 or more this year. Over the last 12 months, I clocked just about 30,000. The every-other week commute to OKC didn't help, but I also had quite a few longer trips via car. The only long car trip we have planned for this year is Colorado in August. I was in the high country six times this last year.
For me, it's somewhat of a return to my roots. I used to ride everywhere when I was a child. We lived at 25th & Delaware until I was 11, I'd ride to Barnard Elementary, Utica Square, Steve's Sundries, plus I had a paper route I did on the bike. Of course that's back before we had all the worries in letting our kids out of our sight as we do now.
When are you going to start growing the Skullet?
(http://www.tulsapeople.com/Blogs/Editors-Notes/July-2010/Biker-Fox/BikerFox.jpg)
Quote from: Gaspar on February 27, 2012, 03:17:09 PM
When are you going to start growing the Skullet?
(http://www.tulsapeople.com/Blogs/Editors-Notes/July-2010/Biker-Fox/BikerFox.jpg)
JFC!!!!! DID YOU REALLY HAVE TO GO THERE?!?!?!
Bleach!!! Where's the bleach????!!!!
Is it me or does he look like a "Lord of the Rings" troll ?
Quote from: DolfanBob on February 27, 2012, 04:22:41 PM
Is it me or does he look like a "Lord of the Rings" troll ?
Now that you mention it, he's starting to look like Gollum.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxdkykwVFRat-Q-i-LfI7cjkNmdvnDgfvb3U_tqf1JReJtFtoL) (https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKwik-WOJ_pOy72PZEGqA_9QRef9KO7f3uBAWSTG9jfly31SsK)
Quote from: Townsend on February 27, 2012, 05:16:15 PM
Now that you mention it, he's starting to look like Gollum.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxdkykwVFRat-Q-i-LfI7cjkNmdvnDgfvb3U_tqf1JReJtFtoL) (https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKwik-WOJ_pOy72PZEGqA_9QRef9KO7f3uBAWSTG9jfly31SsK)
What's worse now is that I have the phrase 'my precious' juxtaposed now. Thanks a damn lot you guys! :P
When I was commuting by bicycle, my annual car mileage was about 6,000 miles, half of that from driving back east on vacation. I drove to work so little that it felt strange to have to find a parking space. The bike rack is directly in front of the building. My car sat in the driveway for weeks without moving, and one evening some neighbors came by to see if I was OK.
There are lots of ways to carry stuff on a bike. If you need to move heavy items, say, a couple of gallons of milk, orange juice, or the like, remember that it weighs 8 pounds per gallon. You can put 3 one gallon jugs in a messenger bag, for instance, but it makes your center of gravity very high. Getting out of the saddle or climbing hills is difficult as it sways a lot. Front baskets can increase wheel 'flop' when weighted down, so the best choice is a pannier or similar rear bag. Sure, you can fix a milk crate atop a rear rack, but it has the same effect on CG as the big messenger bag.
It can get a little weird if you really get hooked on bike commuting. You'll discover a tremendous need for a second bike. In my case, I wanted a bad weather bike with fenders, lights, and a fixed gear so my good weather bike could be unencumbered. It eventually sprouted fenders too. They really extend the usefulness of the bike in wet conditions.
Quote from: Ed W on February 27, 2012, 06:15:44 PM
When I was commuting by bicycle, my annual car mileage was about 6,000 miles, half of that from driving back east on vacation. I drove to work so little that it felt strange to have to find a parking space. The bike rack is directly in front of the building. My car sat in the driveway for weeks without moving, and one evening some neighbors came by to see if I was OK.
There are lots of ways to carry stuff on a bike. If you need to move heavy items, say, a couple of gallons of milk, orange juice, or the like, remember that it weighs 8 pounds per gallon. You can put 3 one gallon jugs in a messenger bag, for instance, but it makes your center of gravity very high. Getting out of the saddle or climbing hills is difficult as it sways a lot. Front baskets can increase wheel 'flop' when weighted down, so the best choice is a pannier or similar rear bag. Sure, you can fix a milk crate atop a rear rack, but it has the same effect on CG as the big messenger bag.
It can get a little weird if you really get hooked on bike commuting. You'll discover a tremendous need for a second bike. In my case, I wanted a bad weather bike with fenders, lights, and a fixed gear so my good weather bike could be unencumbered. It eventually sprouted fenders too. They really extend the usefulness of the bike in wet conditions.
I don't suffer from a lack of bikes ;D
I've got my primary road bike, the carbon Bianchi, another other late model Bianchi which is set up for crit racing, then there is my old CrMo frame 1984 Bianchi (like riding a giant spring down the road)
Add to that:
Mountain bike
Cyclocross bike
Hank the Tank
Plus FMC's three bikes. Think we have a cycling problem in my house?
I'm actually thinking about fitting the oldest Bianchi with panniers and a rear rack. That would likely be the one I'd ride back and forth to the office the most or take when I've got more load to carry and keep a set of lights on it. The rear rack on the old tank bike is sturdy but not really sure how many cycles of loaded weight and vibration it will take. Might be just fine for lighter loads.
Do you have a web site or local outfitter you've been particularly happy with on commuter outfitting?
I've bought cycling equipment from a variety of local shops, but out of all of them, Tom's is my favorite. Maybe because he has more gray hair than me!
Gasoline is like food we need it for our modern lifestyle and we have to pay whatever price they ask. I plan to deal with it by helping to get Obama out of office. Mitt, Newt or Rick anyone but Obama in 2012.... Domestic oil Drilling is down 40% on federal lands, we are short refinery capacity, Obama closed some Texas refineries. Gasoline is always high with democrats in control- remember the Jimmy Carter gas lines and dry gas stations, odd-even rationing, all because of OPEC's embargo, since we can't drill for our own oil.
We are being "Denied Access" to gasoline!
The USA is said to be the OPEC of natural gas, we have natural gas up the wazoo-- but like with oil, the democrats and the EPA choking are our nations fuel development. They want windmills that have been tryed and failed in the past, and solar power that is expensive and does not work well.. Natural gas in cars burns very clean, engines last longer, it's cheap. Why not a hybred that burns gasoline & natural gas? We have hybreds for gasoline and E-85, and gasoline & Expensive batteries... Another idea - What about making natural gas cars and also having gasoline cars? The compition between the two fuels will lower the cost of gasoline. Nothing like this will happen as long as we have radicals like Obama in control.
Quote from: Gaspar on February 28, 2012, 04:47:05 PM
We are being "Denied Access" to gasoline!
Not if your rich. The rich have no problems with $6.00 a gallon gasoline, it will only take the poor & working class people off the roads.
It is true that the US is currently an oil "exporter,* but global supplies are down. It's not just speculation, folks.
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 28, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
the democrats and the EPA choking are our nations fuel development
Yes, that is so much like reality that I commend you. Or not. Perhaps you aren't aware of this but natural gas prices are presently rather low. Kinda shoots your theory all to smile.
Edited to add: Another thing you might not be aware of: The US' oil consumption is about 3 and a half times current production. You seriously think we can more than triple production? You seriously think that we wouldn't have already done that if it were possible?
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 28, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Gasoline is like food we need it for our modern lifestyle and we have to pay whatever price they ask. I plan to deal with it by helping to get Obama out of office. Mitt, Newt or Rick anyone but Obama in 2012.... Domestic oil Drilling is down 40% on federal lands, we are short refinery capacity, Obama closed some Texas refineries. Gasoline is always high with democrats in control- remember the Jimmy Carter gas lines and dry gas stations, odd-even rationing, all because of OPEC's embargo, since we can't drill for our own oil.
Is Shadows your father or grandfather?
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 28, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Gasoline is like food we need it for our modern lifestyle and we have to pay whatever price they ask. I plan to deal with it by helping to get Obama out of office. Mitt, Newt or Rick anyone but Obama in 2012.... Domestic oil Drilling is down 40% on federal lands, we are short refinery capacity, Obama closed some Texas refineries. Gasoline is always high with democrats in control- remember the Jimmy Carter gas lines and dry gas stations, odd-even rationing, all because of OPEC's embargo, since we can't drill for our own oil.
You seem to forget that gas was around $1.25 a gallon when the second President Bush took office. July of 2008, it was nearly $4.00 a gallon here in Tulsa.
There again, with Bush's fiscal policy, he may well have been a closet liberal.
Quote from: nathanm on February 28, 2012, 05:29:29 PM
You seriously think we can more than triple production? You seriously think that we wouldn't have already done that if it were possible?
I don't think we could
easily triple production. It may be possible but the drive to push alternative energy would insure that regulations would make it impossible.
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 28, 2012, 04:51:24 PM
Not if your rich. The rich have no problems with $6.00 a gallon gasoline, it will only take the poor & working class people off the roads.
I believe you missed the context since the post that set it up was in another thread. You would have seen it if you were viewing the most recent posts vs. just following one thread. Try to mix it up a bit.
Quote from: Townsend on February 27, 2012, 05:16:15 PM
Now that you mention it, he's starting to look like Gollum.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxdkykwVFRat-Q-i-LfI7cjkNmdvnDgfvb3U_tqf1JReJtFtoL) (https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKwik-WOJ_pOy72PZEGqA_9QRef9KO7f3uBAWSTG9jfly31SsK)
Poor Smeagle...why does it cry?
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 28, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
The USA is said to be the OPEC of natural gas, we have natural gas up the wazoo-- but like with oil, the democrats and the EPA choking are our nations fuel development. They want windmills that have been tryed and failed in the past, and solar power that is expensive and does not work well.. Natural gas in cars burns very clean, engines last longer, it's cheap. Why not a hybred that burns gasoline & natural gas? We have hybreds for gasoline and E-85, and gasoline & Expensive batteries... Another idea - What about making natural gas cars and also having gasoline cars? The compition between the two fuels will lower the cost of gasoline. Nothing like this will happen as long as we have radicals like Obama in control.
Speaking of "hybreds" [sp], I think I just ran accross one.
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 28, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
The USA is said to be the OPEC of natural gas, we have natural gas up the wazoo-- but like with oil, the democrats and the EPA choking are our nations fuel development. They want windmills that have been tryed and failed in the past, and solar power that is expensive and does not work well.. Natural gas in cars burns very clean, engines last longer, it's cheap. Why not a hybred that burns gasoline & natural gas? We have hybreds for gasoline and E-85, and gasoline & Expensive batteries... Another idea - What about making natural gas cars and also having gasoline cars? The compition between the two fuels will lower the cost of gasoline. Nothing like this will happen as long as we have radicals like Obama in control.
You goof....read up! The mega oil and gas companies want to produce income with little desire to continue improving the needed infra structure to deliver their gas in order to create the demand for vehicles powered by their own products. Instead, they (mostly 'less government" types) want their subsidies and tax breaks in order to set up the logical placement of points of delivery. Call your stupid idiot representatives in Congress and quit scapegoating Obama....
Quote
REVIEW & OUTLOOKFEBRUARY 29, 2012
Boone-Doggle
The natural gas industry doesn't need subsidies.
Something about energy policy causes Republicans and even many conservatives to abandon every free-market principle they claim to believe and embrace corporate welfare. The latest example comes courtesy of our sometime intellectual ally, Texas billionaire Boone Pickens, who is pushing the Nat Gas Act.
Mr. Pickens wants to pour subsidies on the production and purchase of vehicles that use natural gas as a transportation fuel. With conventional gasoline prices approaching $4 a gallon in many markets, this is the hottest energy fad in Washington and has had as many as 180 House co-sponsors, including, at last count, 72 Republicans.
The Pickens plan got a big lift when Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid introduced a version of the bill with fellow Democrat Robert Menendez of New Jersey and North Carolina Republican Richard Burr, a rare case of bipartisan agreement.
***
"Natural gas is cheap, clean, abundant, and it's ours," Mr. Pickens says, and he's right. Breakthroughs in drilling technologies, such as hydraulic fracturing in shale, have increased America's recoverable reserves of natural gas at a low cost. Natural gas prices have remained low and stable this year even as oil prices have fluctuated and topped $100 a barrel. Natural gas is already supplanting coal plants for electricity in many places and is likely to keep doing so unless environmentalists kill the fracking industry.
But natural gas isn't widespread as a transportation fuel, and Mr. Pickens wants to dun taxpayers to change that. The Nat Gas Act would provide tax credits between $7,500 and $65,000 per vehicle to convert 150,000 U.S. light trucks and heavy 18-wheelers to natural gas engines from those powered by diesel oil. The bill would also provide a tax credit to the manufacturers of natural gas vehicles.
There's more. The 50 cent a gallon alternative fuel credit for purchasing natural gas at the pump would be extended for five years through 2016. On top of that, service stations would get a tax credit of up to $100,000 to buy the pumps and other equipment to provide natural gas.
Proponents put the cost at about $5 billion over five years, but many energy experts believe it would be multiples higher. Eight million trucks are on the road today, and if each got a $15,000 average tax credit, the price tag grows to over $100 billion.
The natural gas shale revolution is a blessing for the U.S., but its very abundance and low cost mean that it could be a commercially viable substitute for oil without taxpayer handouts. At current prices, a gallon of transportation fuel from natural gas costs about one-third to one-half less a gallon of gas from oil. That's a big nonsubsidized cost advantage.
Mr. Pickens claims that the subsidies are merely to finance the transition to natural gas vehicles, and that they will be temporary. But there were no subsidies for Henry Ford to build the Model T, and no tax incentives for gas stations in every town in America.
As for "energy independence," taxpayer subsidies have a miserable record of reducing reliance on foreign oil. In the 1970s the feds spent some $2 billion on synthetic fuels, which were a commercial bust. Ethanol was sold as a path to energy "security," but 30 years and more than $40 billion later it still can't compete without governmental support. The two-decade federal nourishment of solar, wind and other non-hydro renewables has cost tens of billions of dollars, yet they still provide just 3.6% of U.S. electricity.
The history of energy subsidies is that they become an industrial and political addiction that is difficult to stop, no matter the results, and may even inhibit innovation and profitability by providing a crutch.
We are also told that government must subsidize natural gas because the OPEC cartel blocks a free market in oil. But OPEC is not the only price-setter in oil markets, and in any case the point of a cartel is to hold the market price artificially high, which should help natural gas and renewables. If the world is running out of oil (doubtful), and prices will rise over time (maybe), this should only make natural gas more promising without federal help.
Equally dubious is the claim that natural gas subsidies would merely "level the playing field" because oil also gets tax breaks. We'd prefer no breaks for any industry, but the modest benefits for oil include tax write-offs that every manufacturer gets. In any case the Nat Gas Act would provide subsidies many times greater per unit of BTU.
***
The big transportation debate of the moment is whether the future belongs to natural gas vehicles, battery-operated cars or hybrids, or whether new sources of oil will keep gasoline, diesel and the internal-combustion engine paramount. Who knows?
But we do know who doesn't know: Congress. Best to let millions of investors and consumers—otherwise known as a market—decide these fates rather than blowing $5 billion, or $100 billion, and creating another industry that depends on political intervention for its survival. One reason the U.S. has trillion-dollar deficits is because too many Republicans too often forget that they were elected to end subsidies and earmarks, not to create new ones.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304070104576395662990512484.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
The middle class won't be impacted immediately by gas prices, nor will the wealthy. It will suck for the poor though. They will get several waves of pain as the energy sector suffers. First, their cost of living goes up immediately, and if they are paycheck to paycheck they won't have any reserve to offset. The double whammy is that when the middle class, who tend to be very elastic in their spending, start to contract their spending on things like eating out, Starbucks, and entertainment, the poor who hold most of the service jobs in those industries will see a drop in their employment. Now they have fewer jobs and higher living expenses. The incidence of default will increase, and with that, the cost will be passed back up to the middle class who holds the vast majority of investment capital.
Eventually energy prices effect everyone, but their is quite a delay from the time the poor become destitute until the middle class and wealthy feel the squeeze. We have seen this scenario play out before. I predict that unless prices go down, once you see $5 gas, you will also see security guards posted at filling stations, and stations shutting down or reducing their hours in the "bad neighborhoods."
Ignoring energy costs as the prime economic manipulator in an economy is a very elitist position for a politician. You have to be able to ignore the impact on "the less fortunate" or deem them politically insignificant. You also have to convince society that high energy and production costs are somehow a good thing.
Such a negative Nellie. Consider that trucks, SUV's and performance cars are going to get cheaper and cheaper. Your old bicycle, as Conan notes, will be worth more than ever and MTTA buses will once again start to fill up.
Seriously, I doubt any politician IN power ignores rising fuel costs. The only ones who want to see $5 gasoline are running FOR positions of power.
Quote from: Gaspar on February 29, 2012, 01:03:33 PM
The middle class won't be impacted immediately by gas prices, nor will the wealthy. It will suck for the poor though. They will get several waves of pain as the energy sector suffers. First, their cost of living goes up immediately, and if they are paycheck to paycheck they won't have any reserve to offset. The double whammy is that when the middle class, who tend to be very elastic in their spending, start to contract their spending on things like eating out, Starbucks, and entertainment, the poor who hold most of the service jobs in those industries will see a drop in their employment. Now they have fewer jobs and higher living expenses. The incidence of default will increase, and with that, the cost will be passed back up to the middle class who holds the vast majority of investment capital.
Eventually energy prices effect everyone, but their is quite a delay from the time the poor become destitute until the middle class and wealthy feel the squeeze. We have seen this scenario play out before. I predict that unless prices go down, once you see $5 gas, you will also see security guards posted at filling stations, and stations shutting down or reducing their hours in the "bad neighborhoods."
Ignoring energy costs as the prime economic manipulator in an economy is a very elitist position for a politician. You have to be able to ignore the impact on "the less fortunate" or deem them politically insignificant. You also have to convince society that high energy and production costs are somehow a good thing.
You're pretty removed from reality to think what will be left of a middle class holds the vast majority of investment capital. That has been and continues to be the %1 who seem to be complacent in placing the proper infrastructure to facilitate the sale of Natural Gas for vehicles to travel across country. And, maybe when gas gets to $7 we might see armed guards. And who will pay for them? Or will they be government security?
Quote from: Teatownclown on February 29, 2012, 01:41:27 PM
You're pretty removed from reality to think what will be left of a middle class holds the vast majority of investment capital. That has been and continues to be the %1 who seem to be complacent in placing the proper infrastructure to facilitate the sale of Natural Gas for vehicles to travel across country. And, maybe when gas gets to $7 we might see armed guards. And who will pay for them? Or will they be government security?
And they will probably be paid a gallon a hour.
Quote from: Teatownclown on February 29, 2012, 01:41:27 PM
You're pretty removed from reality to think what will be left of a middle class holds the vast majority of investment capital. That has been and continues to be the %1 who seem to be complacent in placing the proper infrastructure to facilitate the sale of Natural Gas for vehicles to travel across country. And, maybe when gas gets to $7 we might see armed guards. And who will pay for them? Or will they be government security?
In Detroit, they want to force the station owners to pay for guards.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/detroit-city-councilman-wants-guards-at-gas-stations-20120228-kb
I loved Colbert's tweet yesterday....."If we take away those long rods gas stations use to change their signs, gas prices will never go up again. YOU'RE WELCOME."
Quote from: Conan71 on February 28, 2012, 05:41:58 PM
You seem to forget that gas was around $1.25 a gallon when the second President Bush took office. July of 2008, it was nearly $4.00 a gallon here in Tulsa.
There again, with Bush's fiscal policy, he may well have been a closet liberal.
Bush had a congress full of anti-drilling democrats since 2007 too, and you seem to forget that when Obama took the oath of office gasoline was around $1.70 a gallon and it never was that low since, it only gone up & up. We had the highest winter gasoline prices in history under Obama. We need to drill and we need more refineries. BTW I heard the Chevy Volt car costs between $18.00 and $20.00 in electric charges to give the battery a 10 hour charge, that makes the cost per mile not very cheap.
Quote from: sauerkraut on March 05, 2012, 04:11:26 PM
Bush had a congress full of anti-drilling democrats since 2007 too, and you seem to forget that when Obama took the oath of office gasoline was around $1.70 a gallon and it never was that low since, it only gone up & up. We had the highest winter gasoline prices in history under Obama. We need to drill and we need more refineries. BTW I heard the Chevy Volt car costs between $18.00 and $20.00 in electric charges to give the battery a 10 hour charge, that makes the cost per mile not very cheap.
You also seem to forget that gas was near 4 a gallon while Dubya was in office. So what's the excuse there?
Quote from: Hoss on March 05, 2012, 04:12:24 PM
You also seem to forget that gas was near 4 a gallon while Dubya was in office. So what's the excuse there?
That was Bush's fault!
Quote from: sauerkraut on March 05, 2012, 04:11:26 PM
Bush had a congress full of anti-drilling democrats since 2007 too, and you seem to forget that when Obama took the oath of office gasoline was around $1.70 a gallon and it never was that low since, it only gone up & up. We had the highest winter gasoline prices in history under Obama. We need to drill and we need more refineries. BTW I heard the Chevy Volt car costs between $18.00 and $20.00 in electric charges to give the battery a 10 hour charge, that makes the cost per mile not very cheap.
Who the hell is paying $1.25/kWh for electricity? Are you quoting the price in some remote village in Alaska that runs on a diesel generator with fuel carried overland by mule? Try a tenth of that. In Alaska, using the most pessimistic calculation I can support with evidence.
Quote from: nathanm on March 05, 2012, 05:18:47 PM
Who the hell is paying $1.25/kWh for electricity? Are you quoting the price in some remote village in Alaska that runs on a diesel generator with fuel carried overland by mule? Try a tenth of that. In Alaska, using the most pessimistic calculation I can support with evidence.
Remember the source and chuckle.
He's found himself a new website somewhere that is feeding him expired pablum.
Quote from: AquaMan on March 05, 2012, 06:57:35 PM
He's found himself a new website somewhere that is feeding him expired pablum.
Delicious delicious pablum.
Quote from: Hoss on March 05, 2012, 04:12:24 PM
You also seem to forget that gas was near 4 a gallon while Dubya was in office. So what's the excuse there?
That was in the SUMMER peak driving season and shortly after the prices dropped like a rock, Today with Obama the fuel prices go high & stay high. The winter driving off- season is when gas prices are at the lowest point in the year and this year the prices never dropped below $3.00 a gallon as per national average. The highest winter gas prices ever recorded, wait till the 2012 summer comes around. Bush opened up off shore drilling and Obama is shutting down drilling, BTW, a major refinery in PA run by Sunoco is due to close this June due to losing a Billion dollars, in the NE they have no pipelines and have to get oil by barge and they have to use a more expensive kind of crude oil that costs $15.00 more a barrel than west Texas crude oil, so the refinery is shutting down and the result will be fuel and heating oil prices in the NE will go into orbit. The Boston Globe had a article about this.. Sunoco is looking for a buyer for the refinery. I'd hate to see what gas prices will be under a 2nd Obama term...
This was E-mailed to me by one of my ultra conservative buddies.
Cost to operate aChevy Volt
Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.
For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.
The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.
I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.
16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.
$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.
Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.
$3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.
The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.
So Obama wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 time as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.
REALLY?
Quote from: sauerkraut on March 06, 2012, 03:11:44 PM
That was in the SUMMER peak driving season and shortly after the prices dropped like a rock, Today with Obama the fuel prices go high & stay high. The winter driving off- season is when gas prices are at the lowest point in the year and this year the prices never dropped below $3.00 a gallon as per national average. The highest winter gas prices ever recorded, wait till the 2012 summer comes around. Bush opened up off shore drilling and Obama is shutting down drilling, BTW, a major refinery in PA run by Sunoco is due to close this June due to losing a Billion dollars, in the NE they have no pipelines and have to get oil by barge and they have to use a more expensive kind of crude oil that costs $15.00 more a barrel than west Texas crude oil, so the refinery is shutting down and the result will be fuel and heating oil prices in the NE will go into orbit. The Boston Globe had a article about this.. Sunoco is looking for a buyer for the refinery. I'd hate to see what gas prices will be under a 2nd Obama term...
I would have hated worse to see what gas prices would have been under McCain and 'Drill baby drill'....
And maybe if you'd stop driving a 1965 International truck...
Quote from: sauerkraut on March 06, 2012, 03:11:44 PM
That was in the SUMMER peak driving season and shortly after the prices dropped like a rock, Today with Obama the fuel prices go high & stay high. The winter driving off- season is when gas prices are at the lowest point in the year and this year the prices never dropped below $3.00 a gallon as per national average. The highest winter gas prices ever recorded, wait till the 2012 summer comes around. Bush opened up off shore drilling and Obama is shutting down drilling, BTW, a major refinery in PA run by Sunoco is due to close this June due to losing a Billion dollars, in the NE they have no pipelines and have to get oil by barge and they have to use a more expensive kind of crude oil that costs $15.00 more a barrel than west Texas crude oil, so the refinery is shutting down and the result will be fuel and heating oil prices in the NE will go into orbit. The Boston Globe had a article about this.. Sunoco is looking for a buyer for the refinery. I'd hate to see what gas prices will be under a 2nd Obama term...
Cites?
Quote from: DolfanBob on March 06, 2012, 03:15:04 PM
This was E-mailed to me by one of my ultra conservative buddies.
Cost to operate aChevy Volt
Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.
For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.
The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.
I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.
16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.
$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.
Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.
$3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.
The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.
So Obama wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 time as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.
REALLY?
Yes, that is what I saw. That is how it is. That is why the Chey Volt is a joke & failure. The cost to re-charge the Volt depends on your local Electric rates.
Quote from: sauerkraut on March 06, 2012, 03:43:01 PM
Yes, that is what I saw. That is how it is. That is why the Chey Volt is a joke & failure. The cost to re-charge the Volt depends on your local Electric rates.
$.07 to $.15 per kwh in Oklahoma.
http://www.okcoop.org/services/rates.aspx (http://www.okcoop.org/services/rates.aspx)
Quote•For bills mailed June through September:
◦Service Availability Charge: $0.50 per day
◦Energy Charge:
■On Peak: $0.15 per kWh
■Off Peak: $0.073 per kWh
On Peak shall be the hours between 3:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Monday through Friday between June 1 and August 31, excluding the 4th of July.
•For bills mailed October through May:
◦Service Availability Charge: $0.50 per day
◦Energy Charge:
■First 1000 kWh: $0.073 per kWh
■Over 1000 kWh: $0.057 per kWh
Quote from: Townsend on March 06, 2012, 03:53:23 PM
$.07 to $.15 per kwh in Oklahoma.
http://www.okcoop.org/services/rates.aspx (http://www.okcoop.org/services/rates.aspx)
Must be all that Nebraska-learnin'....
Divide the electric cost by ten and you have a realistic number. The electricity to run the Volt in Oklahoma should cost around 2 cents a mile.
The average miles per gallon for cars sold in America last year was 22 MPH. Gas costs $3.499 at the station by my house today. That means gasoline costs for the average car is 16 cents per mile.
The Volt car sales are sluggish for a variety of other reasons. The most important reason is the $40,000 sticker price. Yes, you do get a $7,500 tax credit, but that is still $32.5K and the Toyota Prius is $29K. The non-hybrid Honda Insight (43 MPH) costs under $20K.
Quote from: sauerkraut on March 06, 2012, 03:11:44 PM
BTW, a major refinery in PA run by Sunoco is due to close this June due to losing a Billion dollars, in the NE they have no pipelines and have to get oil by barge and they have to use a more expensive kind of crude oil that costs $15.00 more a barrel than west Texas crude oil, so the refinery is shutting down and the result will be fuel and heating oil prices in the NE will go into orbit. The Boston Globe had a article about this.. Sunoco is looking for a buyer for the refinery. I'd hate to see what gas prices will be under a 2nd Obama term...
I don't know about the crude oil pipelines but there are several product pipelines in the NE.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.- Albert Einstein
Had the expressways with six lanes and auto's been available in his time I am sure he would have added the price of gasoline. Auto's have become a status quo with the new credit plans and they fill the six lane expressways.
What happened to the electric cars that PSO was trying out?
Quote from: DolfanBob on March 06, 2012, 03:15:04 PM
I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.
16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.
Lots of lies there. The biggest and most obvious one is the cost of electricity the author quotes. The highest electricity rate in the US is in Honolulu at 21.8 cents per kwh.
But hey, the story is not nearly as incendiary if truth is used.
Interesting thing about oil and gas...if it were such a critical issue of "national security" as you know who would have us believe and refineries are in such a dire state, then why is it we now export more gasoline than we import?
Not because of national security issues, that's for sure. It is because oil, gas, diesel are all among the most fungible commodities the world has ever seen.
But hey, that's another case of reality not being nearly as incendiary as the dogma.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2012, 10:41:07 PM
The highest electricity rate in the US is in Honolulu at 21.8 cents per kwh.
If you count the cost for the privilege of being connected, I can beat that 21.8 cents/KWH. At my hangar at KRVS, I pay about $37 before I use the first KWH. The per KWH charge is on top of that. Then there is 2% Tulsa franchise fee, 3.16% City tax, 4.5% State tax and 0.85% County tax on top of the base and per KWH charge. My most recent bill is $41.02 for 16 KWH.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 06, 2012, 11:14:18 PM
My most recent bill is $41.02 for 16 KWH.
If you were charging a Volt there, the per-kWh effective rate would be significantly lower. Half if you charged it only once a month. Think of all the money you could be saving! ;)
Quote from: nathanm on March 06, 2012, 11:50:09 PM
If you were charging a Volt there, the per-kWh effective rate would be significantly lower.
It could be significantly lower if I even just left a light on.
Quote
Half if you charged it only once a month. Think of all the money you could be saving! ;)
It would actually be a bit more than half since if I used more KWH (assuming I was adding 16KWH, not substituting) the bill would go up some even though the effective rate per KWH would come down.
Meanwhile, Holly Corp makes record profits. I'm about ready to recommend price controls for refineries and a hammer on their environmental lies.
QuoteHollyFrontier reports $1 billion profit for 2011
By ROD WALTON World Staff Writer
Published: 2/29/2012 2:25 AM
Last Modified: 2/29/2012 2:58 AM
What company officials called "historically strong" refining margins lifted HollyFrontier Corp. to $223.4 million in net income for the fourth quarter, the Dallas-based refinery owner reported Tuesday.
HollyFrontier, which owns and operates the west Tulsa refinery, reported $1 billion, or $6.42 per diluted share, in profit for all of 2011. The net income was nearly 10 times higher than 2010 but reflected increased scale due to the merger of Holly Corp. and Frontier Oil Corp. last summer.
"We are especially pleased with the company's full-year results, as this was the most profitable year in our history," CEO Mike Jennings said in a statement. "Looking forward, the differentials between inland and coastal crudes are fairly robust, which should contribute favorably to our first-quarter results."
Overall refinery gross margins hit $15.32 per produced barrel in the fourth quarter, up 95 percent from the $7.87 gross margin in 2010's fourth quarter. HollyFrontier's production levels averaged 438,000 barrels per day. The Mid-Continent segment, which includes refineries in Tulsa and El Dorado, Kan., produced an average of nearly 195,000 barrels per day in 2011. Gross margin averaged $19.59 per barrel, more than $6 better than the 2010 figures for the same region, while the $14.55 net margin was a 457 percent improvement over the comparable 2010 per-barrel margin.
"Throughout the year our plants ran well with high throughput rates," Jennings said a morning conference call with analysts. HollyFrontier sees near-term challenges with crude transportation bottlenecks but remains "optimistic about refining margins in the Mid-Con, Rockies and Southwest markets that we serve."
The Tulsa refinery is capable of processing and producing up to 125,000 daily barrels in gasoline, diesel, jet fuels, speciality lubricants, asphalt and other products.
Holly Corp., which bought the Sunoco Inc. refinery in summer 2009 and the Sinclair refinery six months later, operates the two facilities as one complex connected by pipelines.
HollyFrontier Corp. earnings
4Q 2011 4Q 2010 Full-year 2011 Full-year 2010 Pct change*
Revenues 4.97B $2.21B $15.44B $8.32B 85.5 %
Net income $223.4M $208.7M $1.02B $104M 884.4 %
Net per share $1.06 $0.13 $6.42 $0.97 561.9 %
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20120229_49_E1_Waopnf908932
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20120229_49_E1_Waopnf908932
here's the link http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20120228_49_0_Whatco646979 to the original article which speaks to how they connect pipelines to call it "one" refinery...there's probably other
corrections connections but the stench gets to me...
Has the right wingnut lie machine started taking this remark out of context and turning it into another one of their tall tales?
I quit listening to KRMG so let me know.... :o
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 07, 2012, 03:24:47 PM
I quit listening to KRMG so let me know.... :o
I've quit following your links to videos.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 07, 2012, 06:28:33 PM
I've quit following your links to videos.
yeah, quite a few people on here I've stopped doing that for.