Can anyone tell me why the hell we are still in Afghanistan?
We are spending billions to build schools and train police over there, and they hate us. We're launching hundreds of drone strikes, killing hundreds of "terrorists" and getting nowhere. It's like trying to eradicate an infestation of cockroaches by shooting rubber bands at them.
We got Sadam, we got Bin Laden, time to cut bait!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/world/asia/koran-burning-afghanistan-demonstrations.html?hp
Quote from: Gaspar on February 27, 2012, 08:11:22 AM
Can anyone tell me why the hell we are still in Afghanistan?
We are spending billions to build schools and train police over there, and they hate us. We're launching hundreds of drone strikes, killing hundreds of "terrorists" and getting nowhere. It's like trying to eradicate an infestation of cockroaches by shooting rubber bands at them.
We got Sadam, we got Bin Laden, time to cut bait!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/world/asia/koran-burning-afghanistan-demonstrations.html?hp
Wow, for once something we are in total agreement with...
President Obama pulled out 10,000 troops from Afghanistan last year and has announced plans to pull out 23,000 more by this summer. That will leave about 70,000 troops. Military leaders say they want at least that many through at least the end of 2012.
I agree gaspar. We need to pull out faster than that. I am sure that Al Qaeda is going to flourish as soon as we leave, but we can't be there forever.
That is the thing about sending troops to fight overseas. It is really hard to get out.
I completely agree. There is no reason for us to still be fighting this war. The longer we stay the more likely it is that we will have a complete break down in relations. It has been close on several occasions, but luckily we have avoiding a full on pissing contest.
There is a certain faction in Washington that believe leaving Afgan is a bad idea and would most likely call the president "irresponsible" full pulling our troops out. There is a larger faction on a "fair and balanced" knews network that would have a field day with this, which would result in me having to see another 50 or so facebook posts from my republican family members discussing how Obama is killing this country, or proof that Obama is a muslim lover.
But really, I agree with Gas.
It's time to go. Now.
We have no self interest reason to be there anymore and aren't making things better for the locals, who don't want us there anyway.
They have stores, schools, women free to walk around in the streets. Our experiment of trying to offer American freedom, government and lifestyle to a culture that is clearly not willing to sacrifice for it should be over!
Those who are thankful of liberation from Taliban rule are obviously not motivated or thankful enough to defend their new freedoms. They've simply transitioned from being dependent on one group to being dependent on another. You simply cannot deliver freedom to people. They have to earn it, and they clearly have not.
Return them to their masters.
The only reason we are still there is because we would much rather get our hands soiled with the blood of our young men and women then we would with producing our own energy.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on February 27, 2012, 08:39:30 AM
President Obama pulled out 10,000 troops from Afghanistan last year and has announced plans to pull out 23,000 more by this summer. That will leave about 70,000 troops. Military leaders say they want at least that many through at least the end of 2012.
I agree gaspar. We need to pull out faster than that. I am sure that Al Qaeda is going to flourish as soon as we leave, but we can't be there forever.
That is the thing about sending troops to fight overseas. It is really hard to get out.
I've come to the conclusion that Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not our enemies. They are just different names for the same disease. That disease if funded 100% by us. Stop the foreign aid, stop the protectionism, and let them collapse into barbarism. That's the only way they can possibly give birth to a society willing to survive, and a people willing to die for their freedom. Most likely the sands will simply swallow them, Isreal will annihilate them, or they will become Russa's problem for another hundred years.
Quote from: Gaspar on February 27, 2012, 08:48:00 AM
They have stores, schools, women free to walk around in the streets. Our experiment of trying to offer American freedom, government and lifestyle to a culture that is clearly not willing to sacrifice for it should be over!
Those who are thankful of liberation from Taliban rule are obviously not motivated or thankful enough to defend their new freedoms. They've simply transitioned from being dependent on one group to being dependent on another. You simply cannot deliver freedom to people. They have to earn it, and they clearly have not.
Return them to their masters.
The only reason we are still there is because we would much rather get our hands soiled with the blood of our young men and women then we would with producing our own energy.
Agreed that it is time to go. I sincerely hope that the fragile freedoms that Afghani women have barely begun to enjoy will not erode after we leave.
I think that we're to the endgame in Afghanistan. I don't think anyone wants to be there any more. I think that also includes the Pentagon. However, I'm pretty sure the Pentagon will insist on as slow and as "orderly" a drawdown as is politically possible, because they know how shaky things are, how bad things can go if the transition is botched, and who will take the blame if the situation going further south.
I don't know how much of that matters, now, though. A drawdown -- and a pretty quick drawdown, all things considered -- is a central part of Obama's budget considerations going forward and so I think you'll see this end sooner rather than later, devil take the hindmost.
I think one would be hard pressed to find someone who didn't agree with you Gaspar, myself included. This a lesson that countless militaries have found out in past (not the least of which was Alexander the great): once you go into afgahnistan, you will not leave the victor. Occupation there is a slow war of attrition.
That said, letting them fall into barbarism and thinking that there will just be Russia's problem seems a little short sighted. It's what allowed planes to be flown into buildings. That said, I am NOT suggesting a course of action other than withdrawl.
I'm glad we can agree. :)
A little bit of wisdom from our English brethren, via Rudyard Kipling circa 1895: (http://wonderingminstrels.blogspot.com/2003/01/young-british-soldier-rudyard-kipling.html)
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier _of_ the Queen!"
No one wins in Afghanistan. No one has ever won in Afghanistan. They don't call it the Graveyard of Empires for nothin'.
QuoteYou fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia"
Princess Bride
Maybe Ron Paul is right about this topic.
"The one thing for certain is that our national security is not threatened by us not being in Afghanistan. Our national security is much more threatened by us being in Afghanistan."
Quote from: Townsend on February 27, 2012, 11:51:48 AM
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia"
Princess Bride
You sir, win the interwebs!
Quote from: Gaspar on February 27, 2012, 08:11:22 AM
Can anyone tell me why the hell we are still in Afghanistan?
We are spending billions to build schools and train police over there, and they hate us. We're launching hundreds of drone strikes, killing hundreds of "terrorists" and getting nowhere. It's like trying to eradicate an infestation of cockroaches by shooting rubber bands at them.
We got Sadam, we got Bin Laden, time to cut bait!
'Cause we are on the schedule established by the previous regime. And I am very glad to see you are here now.
We should have been out by now. If Obama wanted to do something meaningful and prove some leadership, he would accelerate this. (Keeping in mind we peaked not long ago with 140,000 or so - now down to...
*Edit - finish the sentence from the crash....*
...around 80,000.
Down by 40% or so.
Kind of like the deficit - I am listening to Witless Mitt (dog abuser) right now lying about how the deficit has doubled under Blobama - when it has actually gone down every year - when the debt changed (as in got bigger) by about 1.9 trillion and is now changing by around 1.1 for this next budget. About 40% reduction.
Would never have figured Mitt for a Kid Rock fan. This must be re-run...
Quote from: Gaspar on February 27, 2012, 08:11:22 AM
Can anyone tell me why the hell we are still in Afghanistan?
We are spending billions to build schools and train police over there, and they hate us. We're launching hundreds of drone strikes, killing hundreds of "terrorists" and getting nowhere. It's like trying to eradicate an infestation of cockroaches by shooting rubber bands at them.
We got Sadam, we got Bin Laden, time to cut bait!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/world/asia/koran-burning-afghanistan-demonstrations.html?hp
My dad and I talked about this yesterday. I have no clue why we are still there.
Quote from: Gaspar on February 27, 2012, 08:55:57 AM
I've come to the conclusion that Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not our enemies. They are just different names for the same disease. That disease if funded 100% by us. Stop the foreign aid, stop the protectionism, and let them collapse into barbarism. That's the only way they can possibly give birth to a society willing to survive, and a people willing to die for their freedom. Most likely the sands will simply swallow them, Isreal will annihilate them, or they will become Russa's problem for another hundred years.
Close. Al Queda is not our friend while the Taliban might be again someday. But the enemy is op. And our world is hooked on it. So just remember why we're really there. We have a vested interest in the war on drugs.
Maybe POTUS OBAMA will declare an end the two wars at once when he gets re elected and has a mandate.
Quote from: Gaspar on February 27, 2012, 08:11:22 AM
Can anyone tell me why the hell we are still in Afghanistan?
We are spending billions to build schools and train police over there, and they hate us. We're launching hundreds of drone strikes, killing hundreds of "terrorists" and getting nowhere. It's like trying to eradicate an infestation of cockroaches by shooting rubber bands at them.
We got Sadam, we got Bin Laden, time to cut bait!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/world/asia/koran-burning-afghanistan-demonstrations.html?hp
Why we are in Afghanistan? Simple what would we do with 100,000 more unemployed added to those we already have. The wars have all been fought around the great sea of the Gentiles. The countries within 300 miles of the sea cannot remember when they were not next door or involved in a war. Drugs have nothing to do with the war except for propaganda. We can and do produce methamphetamine in quantities that far exceeds all drugs produced in Afghanistan. We have fed it to our soldiers in the battle field and children going to school. China isolated it 500 years ago.
All the emperors have in the past made the march around the sea of the Gentiles. Many of their defeats were attributed to their supply lines becoming too long. We just got-a try it again and again.
Quote from: shadows on March 03, 2012, 08:33:18 PM
Why we are in Afghanistan? Simple what would we do with 100,000 more unemployed added to those we already have. The wars have all been fought around the great sea of the Gentiles. The countries within 300 miles of the sea cannot remember when they were not next door or involved in a war. Drugs have nothing to do with the war except for propaganda. We can and do produce methamphetamine in quantities that far exceeds all drugs produced in Afghanistan. We have fed it to our soldiers in the battle field and children going to school. China isolated it 500 years ago.
All the emperors have in the past made the march around the sea of the Gentiles. Many of their defeats were attributed to their supply lines becoming too long. We just got-a try it again and again.
Wow squared...
Quote from: Hoss on March 03, 2012, 10:15:19 PM
Wow squared...
There is a kernel of truth/reality in his note. It's just kind of hard to get there.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 04, 2012, 07:55:21 AM
There is a kernel of truth/reality in his note. It's just kind of hard to get there.
Anytime he starts spewing about the Gentiles, though, he's gone.
Quote from: shadows on March 03, 2012, 08:33:18 PM
Why we are in Afghanistan? Simple what would we do with 100,000 more unemployed added to those we already have.
So is it more economical to have that 100,000 employed in a war machine that goes through our nation's assets like crap through a goose, than it is to have them employed (or "about to be" employed) in the civilian workforce?
Some of them still have jobs when they come home, so it's not like we would suddenly add 100K to the unemployed numbers.
Quote from: patric on March 04, 2012, 10:29:28 AM
So is it more economical to have that 100,000 employed in a war machine that goes through our nation's assets like crap through a goose, than it is to have them employed (or "about to be" employed) in the civilian workforce?
Some of them still have jobs when they come home, so it's not like we would suddenly add 100K to the unemployed numbers.
There is a lull by the people when a segment of wars end and the returning troops seek their jobs back that has been replaced which shows an increase in unemployment.
We are a nation that depends on seeing the world in a constant struggle while we duplicate the seminaries to that of England's war of the roses. We have an everlasting internal war going on between the military and the corporate America where both seek power at the expense of the working poor. Great profits can be obtained by corporate America and the military can exert their lust for power, with an open government check book, all under clouds of war of which no one dares to challenges. It is the continuation of man's struggle to evolve in the species called apes.
Quote from: shadows on March 04, 2012, 05:58:36 PM
There is a lull by the people when a segment of wars end and the returning troops seek their jobs back that has been replaced which shows an increase in unemployment.
We are a nation that depends on seeing the world in a constant struggle while we duplicate the seminaries to that of England's war of the roses. We have an everlasting internal war going on between the military and the corporate America where both seek power at the expense of the working poor. Great profits can be obtained by corporate America and the military can exert their lust for power, with an open government check book, all under clouds of war of which no one dares to challenges. It is the continuation of man's struggle to evolve in the species called apes.
Never ceases to amaze...
Quote from: shadows on March 04, 2012, 05:58:36 PM
There is a lull by the people when a segment of wars end and the returning troops seek their jobs back that has been replaced which shows an increase in unemployment.
So we shouldn't ever bring the troops home because we don't want them competing for jobs back here?
Why don't you explain that to our veteran's?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 04, 2012, 06:35:10 PM
So we shouldn't ever bring the troops home because we don't want them competing for jobs back here?
Why don't you explain that to our veteran's?
And their families.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 04, 2012, 06:35:10 PM
So we shouldn't ever bring the troops home because we don't want them competing for jobs back here?
Why don't you explain that to our veteran's?
In today's labor market where could they find a job where the family is given substance pay, health insurance and other perks while the veteran get free clothing, free rent, priority food, pension's and a decent salary with plenty of help with what he is told to do?
In the over sea's environment he is a target for racial and radical groups but how would one feel if a foreign army was camped in their front yard. He possibly is in less danger than if he was walking down the Tulsa streets after mid-night. In today's labor market where could they find a job where the family is given substance pay, health insurance and other perks while the veteran get free clothing, free rent, priority food, pension's and a decent salary with plenty of help with what he is told to do?
In the over sea's environment he is a target for racial and radical groups but how would one feel if a foreign army was camped in their front yard. He possibly is in less danger than if he was walking down the Tulsa streets after mid-night.
Quote from: shadows on March 04, 2012, 09:49:32 PM
veteran get free clothing, free rent, priority food, pension's and a decent salary with plenty of help with what he is told to do?
When I was in the Navy, the first uniform was free. After that, there was a clothing allowance but it was not "free". Free rent in the barracks. Gee thanks. Allowance for quarters was about 1/2 to 1/3 of the going rate for a fleabag apartment in the Virginia Beach area. Chow hall food wasn't bad but nothing to write home about. Decent salary? Not for a college grad when I was enlisted (due to the draft). Being told what to do is not all it's cracked up to be if you have a mind of your own.
For those who like the service, I appreciate their dedication and years of duty. They all deserve our respect.
The draft was eliminated years ago and we have maintain an over stock of volunteer as many are enthused with military life.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 04, 2012, 09:56:05 PM
When I was in the Navy, the first uniform was free. After that, there was a clothing allowance but it was not "free". Free rent in the barracks. Gee thanks. Allowance for quarters was about 1/2 to 1/3 of the going rate for a fleabag apartment in the Virginia Beach area. Chow hall food wasn't bad but nothing to write home about. Decent salary? Not for a college grad when I was enlisted (due to the draft). Being told what to do is not all it's cracked up to be if you have a mind of your own.
For those who like the service, I appreciate their dedication and years of duty. They all deserve our respect.
Good friend in the Navy shared a villa with a buddy for $100 per month each. Included a large house (villa), gardener, cook, maid, driver, utilities and cost of food.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 04, 2012, 10:16:38 PM
Good friend in the Navy shared a villa with a buddy for $100 per month each. Included a large house (villa), gardener, cook, maid, driver, utilities and cost of food.
Not in Virginia Beach in the early/mid 70s.
Quote from: shadows on March 04, 2012, 09:49:32 PM
In today's labor market where could they find a job where the family is given substance pay, health insurance and other perks while the veteran get free clothing, free rent, priority food, pension's and a decent salary with plenty of help with what he is told to do?
In the over sea's environment he is a target for racial and radical groups but how would one feel if a foreign army was camped in their front yard. He possibly is in less danger than if he was walking down the Tulsa streets after mid-night.
Spoken like a person who has never stepped foot in the service. BAS rates are currently 348 a month, regardless of enlisted rank, or family status. If you live in the barracks, there is a good chance you do not receive this since you use the "dining facility". Health insurance? absolutely. This is one thing the military does pretty well, however you are not treated by a doctor who has a practice, you are treated by a military doctor. You better hope that they do not think you are making up stuff because you could get the scarlet letter of "malingering", even if their is something wrong. But for the most part, I had 95% success with the military docs and I trusted most of my care with them, accept for my heart, which I went to an outside specialist for. Free Cothing? First sets of uniforms and boots were free, then you received your uniform allowance on your anniversary. However, you still had to pay to have your dress cloths cleaned and pressed and at that time, your BDU's had better had a razor sharp crease. Free rent? eh, depends on how you look at it. My 1+1 (share a bathroom) was approximately 145 sf. If I were to live off base (which unless you were married had to be approved) I would receive my BAH, which depending on where you were, could be enough to afford something decent. In my case, we still had to have a roommate along with that sizable $375 I was getting everymonth (10 years ago). Priority food??? pancakes does that even mean? Pension, yep. You get 40% of your salary at the end of 20 years, which in most cases I heard about equalled about $1100 before taxes. Decent salary? I guess if you were in one of the low skill jobs (but still important no matter how you look at it), it could be considered "decent". However you need to remember that there were a lot of us who worked in proffesional type jobs earning the same amount as every other enlisted person. I left the military and increased my pay by 100%. Had better insurance and better possibilities.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on March 05, 2012, 11:35:32 AM
Spoken like a person who has never stepped foot in the service. BAS rates are currently 348 a month, regardless of enlisted rank, or family status. If you live in the barracks, there is a good chance you do not receive this since you use the "dining facility". Health insurance? absolutely. This is one thing the military does pretty well, however you are not treated by a doctor who has a practice, you are treated by a military doctor. You better hope that they do not think you are making up stuff because you could get the scarlet letter of "malingering", even if their is something wrong. But for the most part, I had 95% success with the military docs and I trusted most of my care with them, accept for my heart, which I went to an outside specialist for. Free Cothing? First sets of uniforms and boots were free, then you received your uniform allowance on your anniversary. However, you still had to pay to have your dress cloths cleaned and pressed and at that time, your BDU's had better had a razor sharp crease. Free rent? eh, depends on how you look at it. My 1+1 (share a bathroom) was approximately 145 sf. If I were to live off base (which unless you were married had to be approved) I would receive my BAH, which depending on where you were, could be enough to afford something decent. In my case, we still had to have a roommate along with that sizable $375 I was getting everymonth (10 years ago). Priority food??? pancakes does that even mean? Pension, yep. You get 40% of your salary at the end of 20 years, which in most cases I heard about equalled about $1100 before taxes. Decent salary? I guess if you were in one of the low skill jobs (but still important no matter how you look at it), it could be considered "decent". However you need to remember that there were a lot of us who worked in proffesional type jobs earning the same amount as every other enlisted person. I left the military and increased my pay by 100%. Had better insurance and better possibilities.
Back when Shadows was alive, $348 a month was a fortune! You could buy a house and two buggies with that kind of scratch!
Quote from: Gaspar on March 05, 2012, 11:56:43 AM
Back when Shadows was alive, $348 a month was a fortune! You could buy a house and two buggies with that kind of scratch!
You could get an oxcart with that as well.
And two saddles. And a Henry rifle.
Quote from: Hoss on March 05, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
You could get an oxcart with that as well.
And two saddles. And a Henry rifle.
All good investments.
Throw a saddle on the ox, load up the Henry, and you're ready to fight off the reptilian hoard that only the chosen ones can see.
(http://schools-wikipedia.org/images/120/12097.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~adramelech/images/reptilian1.jpg)
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 05, 2012, 06:40:32 AM
Not in Virginia Beach in the early/mid 70s.
Subic Bay, Phillipines, 1971, 1972.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on March 05, 2012, 11:35:32 AM
However, you still had to pay to have your dress cloths cleaned and pressed and at that time, your BDU's had better had a razor sharp crease. Free rent?
Still have to have the crease now - as stated by granddaughter and grandson in guard now. He is in Kuwait on active, where it is somewhat relaxed... She frets about that crease a lot.
Another reason to get out sooner...
http://news.yahoo.com/us-soldier-kills-16-afghans-deepening-crisis-164242200.html
We have no business being there any more. Whatever reasons we had in the past expired long ago, but at the very latest, with this nonsense. Anyone thinks he deserves protection from Afghan law? Should he be turned over to them or try him in our courts?
Quote from: Hoss on March 05, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
You could get an oxcart with that as well.
And two saddles. And a Henry rifle.
...
You also could buy a new Ford car for two months salary at that rate or one two years old for two weeks salary. You could have bought a loaf of bread for a dime or less. A silver dollar of metal could be carried in your pocked with ease. Today you would walk lopsided if you tried to carry enough of those silver dollars, which contained real silver, to the store to buy the 10 cent loaf of bread and a gallon of milk. Isn't it odd that China drove the price of copper up to where the copper penny was worth it weight in copper? We are taking care of that now. What have we gained except decreased the value of a planned retirement?
Quote from: shadows on March 11, 2012, 06:44:03 PM
...
You also could buy a new Ford car for two months salary at that rate or one two years old for two weeks salary. You could have bought a loaf of bread for a dime or less. A silver dollar of metal could be carried in your pocked with ease. Today you would walk lopsided if you tried to carry enough of those silver dollars, which contained real silver, to the store to buy the 10 cent loaf of bread and a gallon of milk. Isn't it odd that China drove the price of copper up to where the copper penny was worth it weight in copper? We are taking care of that now. What have we gained except decreased the value of a planned retirement?
took you a week to respond to that? Are you and kraut timesharing on the library pc?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 11, 2012, 03:10:13 PM
Another reason to get out sooner...
We have no business being there any more. Whatever reasons we had in the past expired long ago, but at the very latest, with this nonsense. Anyone thinks he deserves protection from Afghan law? Should he be turned over to them or try him in our courts?
Do we have to be dragged to the ovens and shown the bones inside, like what the Allies did with disbelieving German civillians?
Oh, but today, we call that "Wikileaks".
Quote from: Hoss on March 11, 2012, 06:57:35 PM
took you a week to respond to that? Are you and kraut timesharing on the library pc?
No I lost my stick that I was pounding the hollow log with for that Indian friend of mine to forward it with his updated Atari. Other than that I go back to the Tulsa Now to correlate the past posts in order to be aware of all related updates.
Quote from: shadows on March 11, 2012, 10:40:52 PM
No I lost my stick that I was pounding the hollow log with for that Indian friend of mine to forward it with his updated Atari. Other than that I go back to the Tulsa Now to correlate the past posts in order to be aware of all related updates.
227,639 posts in 16,164 topics (as of my check a few minutes ago) is a lot of stuff to just scroll through. I could understand a specific search and have done that myself but to just look through stuff... that's a lot of stuff, regardless of how much free time you have to waste.
Quote from: patric on March 11, 2012, 07:13:49 PM
Do we have to be dragged to the ovens and shown the bones inside, like what the Allies did with disbelieving German civillians?
Oh, but today, we call that "Wikileaks".
Apparently.
Nine kids killed - some of them in bed asleep! What kind of disgusting maggot scum would do that kind of thing? I do NOT care how stressed, tense, or PTSD'ed you are - NO excuse for killing children that way! This has also destroyed his family and home - what are his kids going to go through now? He11!
What should be done with the guy? US law or Afghan law?
And we are also expected to believe that the burning of the Quran's was "accidental". The only thing accidental was that the right wing extremist(s) who did it were caught. General McCaffrey just made the statement that "Karsai is throwing gasoline on the fire every time something like this happens." Gee. Ya think??
Obvious by the way he discussed the burning that he doesn't think it's any big deal.
Get US Out!! Now!
They are killing us out of hatred. We are killing them out of hatred.
There is no sanity on either side of this conflict.
The reason we were there is gone.
Pack up and leave them to their own devices.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 12, 2012, 07:31:19 AM
They are killing us out of hatred. We are killing them out of hatred.
There is no sanity on either side of this conflict.
The reason we were there is gone.
Pack up and leave them to their own devices.
We don't agree on much if anything.
This, we do however. Time to get out. Now. Expedite.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 12, 2012, 07:31:19 AM
They are killing us out of hatred. We are killing them out of hatred.
There is no sanity on either side of this conflict.
The reason we were there is gone.
Pack up and leave them to their own devices.
And the second part of my comment.... what kind of country have we become where we put our kids into the situation where they become so broken to do this kind of thing? This is a lot like My Lai. Over and over again.
The news said the guy who allegedly did this was on his 4th tour. 3 in Iraq and now in his first in Afghanistan. That certainly doesn't excuse his appalling crimes, but definitely provides some perspective on what we've demanded of our soldiers to date.
Every conflict seems to have its My Lai moment. The confluence of atrocity and utter PR collapse. Iraq's moment was at Abu Ghraib, and this may end up being Afghanistan's, though I think we might have a couple of good options to choose from. Either way, this seems to me to be a major emphasis point. We're definitely leaving, and soon. Maybe sooner than we imagined.
What are the arguments for staying and who is making them?
We need to get out quickly and get these guys some good psych treatment.
Time for us to go. Now
I understand the sentiment to leave now and I mostly agree. However, with the two parting memories of the burning Qurans and now this incident, is that really how we want to leave it so that the Karzai government can be influenced by the Taliban and AlQaeda forces still in the area that they should back any and all retaliation around the globe against the U.S. and U.S. interests?
The details on this are going to get worse; eyewitnesses are saying this was not the work of a single soldier.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 12, 2012, 10:11:01 AM
I understand the sentiment to leave now and I mostly agree. However, with the two parting memories of the burning Qurans and now this incident, is that really how we want to leave it so that the Karzai government can be influenced by the Taliban and AlQaeda forces still in the area that they should back any and all retaliation around the globe against the U.S. and U.S. interests?
In a "normal" situation I'd agree with you, but things may be unsalvageable. We're slaughtering civilians, desecrating their corpses, destroying their holy books. This also doesn't begin to address the issue of drone strikes, which have (quietly) been killing not only al qaeda and Taliban leaders but also taking out their families and innocent bystanders, too.
War's hell, that's a fact, but it's increasingly a global expectation that we isolate the combatants from civilians even more.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 12, 2012, 10:11:01 AM
I understand the sentiment to leave now and I mostly agree. However, with the two parting memories of the burning Qurans and now this incident, is that really how we want to leave it so that the Karzai government can be influenced by the Taliban and AlQaeda forces still in the area that they should back any and all retaliation around the globe against the U.S. and U.S. interests?
We went in with a purpose. Once our purpose was complete, it was our responsibility to leave an infrastructure the people would be able to defend. THEIR responsibility was to help and assist us in stabilizing their own country. THEY have failed. We have done our duty. We have lived up to our obligations. We need to go now. Our differences are far to great to be able to work together. Or continued presence can do no good.
No, I don't care to be in Afghanistan for one more day either.
I'm simply making the point that this is not like a humbled Japan who will eventually become our ally after we killed 250,000 or so Japanese civilians in two strikes.
I usually am very reluctant to be critical of U.S. service people, but the acts of this gunman (or gunmen) has put the life of every American around the globe in potential danger for years to come. These aren't the sort of people to forgive and forget. Instability in the Middle East has many negative implications. I think I'm just stunned that we are finally at a point of realizing the pull out plans and smile like the Quran BBQ and random slaughter of 16 civilians can possibly wipe out any PR gains we may have made in the region.
Write your representatives. In ink (or crayon - whichever is most appropriate), by hand to have the most effect.
Quote from: we vs us on March 12, 2012, 09:29:25 AM
The news said the guy who allegedly did this was on his 4th tour. 3 in Iraq and now in his first in Afghanistan. That certainly doesn't excuse his appalling crimes, but definitely provides some perspective on what we've demanded of our soldiers to date.
Although this is from Iraq rather than Afghanistan, this provides a chilling glimpse of the midset we're dealing with:
It's one of the pieces of video our former Tulsan Bradley Manning is accused of leaking. But in the end, would we have preferred to remain blissfully ignorant of things like this?
Quote from: Conan71 on March 12, 2012, 11:44:41 AM
No, I don't care to be in Afghanistan for one more day either.
I think I'm just stunned that we are finally at a point of realizing the pull out plans and smile like the Quran BBQ and random slaughter of 16 civilians can possibly wipe out any PR gains we may have made in the region.
Japan is our ally because we defeated them. We were willing to bear our claws and use our teeth back then. We are no longer capable of victory in war because our populous is not willing to fully engage the horrible and ugly idea of war. We view every conflict as a police action now. We have to make up politically correct names for traveling to a foreign land and getting shot at. THERE IS NO WAR, so how can we win?
I don't think we need to be police any more. If we are attacked, our response should be utter destruction. We don't need to send our young away to die, or go nuts trying to fight an enemy that fires at them freely, as they process a check-list and request permission to fire back. Soldiers don't need to crouch in their tents watching their president on CNN apologize as the city burns around them and their brothers are slaughtered.
I used to be critical of President Clinton lobbing bombs from thousands of miles away, but he was smart. Sure, you can't win a war unless you have boots on the ground, but now that we've turned war into bureaucracy and politics, we can't win one anyway.
We should come home, and spend our military money developing the most sophisticated and horrifying deterrents. Attacking United States should be the most ridiculous idea that anyone could ever think of. We need to be a pillar of strength, a valuable ally, and an unthinkable enemy.
If someone launches an attack on the US or our allies, we should send them a form letter:
Dear ____,
You have attacked a vital US interest/ally. In 24 hours your city of ________ will cease to exist.
Please take the necessary steps to evacuate your people.
We are happy to accept your letter of surrender, however there will be no negotiation.
Thank you and have a nice day.
President of The United States of America
P.S. If you intend to retaliate, you will want to also evacuate the city of _______.
None of this. . . "We're so sorry we burned your books, we just don't know what got into us. We hope the slaughter of our soldiers makes up for this. Don't worry, we won't come after you for that, we know those were pretty important books."
Quote from: Gaspar on March 12, 2012, 02:25:15 PM
If someone launches an attack on the US or our allies, we should send them a form letter:
Dear ____,
You have attacked a vital US interest/ally. In 24 hours your city of ________ will cease to exist.
Please take the necessary steps to evacuate your people.
We are happy to accept your letter of surrender, however there will be no negotiation.
Thank you and have a nice day.
President of The United States of America
P.S. If you intend to retaliate, you will want to also evacuate the city of _______.
That might work if we were attacked by a country instead of the Afghani version of the 700 club.
Quote from: Townsend on March 12, 2012, 02:36:54 PM
That might work if we were attacked by a country instead of the Afghani version of the 700 club.
Mountains? What mountains?
Gassy I think you skipped over the ramifications of all the warfighting we've done from WWII onwards. We -- the American people -- have explicitly demanded that our wars be increasingly moral, not only in victory but in prosecution. You can trace this from the creation of the UN and the Geneva Convention right after the Nazis gave up the ghost, on through Vietnam and now into the wikileaks era. It's the confluence of industrial-scale atrocities, increasingly granular media exposure, war tech that allows a more and more scalpel-like approach to conflict, and the absence of actual "war," wherein we conquer and subjugate an enemy population. We don't do that any more. Part of that is preference on the part of the armed forces, part of that is just how our enemies choose to engage us -- which is to say, there's no one who can engage us mano-a-mano. Hence we have to fight battles where winning diplomatically is of first order, and winning militarily is farther on down the list.
What I'm saying is: trends going back more than 50 years have culminated in the anti-insurgent techniques we're fighting today. It's not wussification, it's actually great strides in morality, in technique and technology, that are keeping the body counts down.
Quote from: we vs us on March 12, 2012, 03:07:07 PM
What I'm saying is: trends going back more than 50 years have culminated in the anti-insurgent techniques we're fighting today. It's not wussification, it's actually great strides in morality, in technique and technology, that are keeping the body counts down.
There are no "great moral strides" in battle.
If we are engaged in diplomacy than there is no need for soldiers. If we are engaged in battle, there is no place for diplomats. By blurring the two, we have made peace impossible, we simply prolong the conflicts until we get tired. Then we leave, and the investment we made disappears or is funneled back into the hands of the enemy. Through habituation, terrorist organizations have learned that all they have to do is wait us out.
I hear what you are saying, but it does not produce results.
We run around the world flipping light swathes and swatting roaches.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 12, 2012, 03:40:51 PM
There are no "great moral strides" in battle.
If we are engaged in diplomacy than there is no need for soldiers. If we are engaged in battle, there is no place for diplomats. By blurring the two, we have made peace impossible, we simply prolong the conflicts until we get tired. Then we leave, and the investment we made disappears or is funneled back into the hands of the enemy. Through habituation, terrorist organizations have learned that all they have to do is wait us out.
I hear what you are saying, but it does not produce results.
We run around the world flipping light swathes and swatting roaches.
My point is that there ARE no major wars anymore. All wars against the US from here on out will be variations on Afghanistan and Iraq, which is to say insurgent wars. Why? Because there's no one strong enough to take us head on. This includes China, Russia, anyone else -- should they ever decide to try (which they won't). The only way to win against the US is to roadside-bomb us into submission. Which is what's been happening. And the only way to fight an insurgent war is to win through PR. And unfortunately we're losing Afghanistan through PR.
Also: war and diplomacy have always been intertwined. As Clausewitz said: war is a continuation of politics by other means, which implies simply that war and diplomacy are two tools in the same political toolbox. I'd say the first American wars of the 21st century are ample proof of that, wouldn't you?
Quote from: we vs us on March 12, 2012, 03:52:04 PM
Also: war and diplomacy have always been intertwined. As Clausewitz said: war is a continuation of politics by other means, which implies simply that war and diplomacy are two tools in the same political toolbox. I'd say the first American wars of the 21st century are ample proof of that, wouldn't you?
The Philippine Insurrection and the Moro rebellion?? Not sure how the first two American wars of the 20th century relate necessarily. There really wasn't that much political diplomacy to either of them. We just went in and kicked a$$ until we won. Sort of.
Or did you mean something a little later in the century, like the Mexican Revolution and the Haitian Campaign??
Quote from: we vs us on March 12, 2012, 03:07:07 PM
We -- the American people -- have explicitly demanded that our wars be increasingly moral, not only in victory but in prosecution. You can trace this from the creation of the UN and the Geneva Convention right after the Nazis gave up the ghost, on through Vietnam and now into the wikileaks era. It's the confluence of industrial-scale atrocities, increasingly granular media exposure, war tech that allows a more and more scalpel-like approach to conflict, and the absence of actual "war," wherein we conquer and subjugate an enemy population. We don't do that any more. Part of that is preference on the part of the armed forces, part of that is just how our enemies choose to engage us -- which is to say, there's no one who can engage us mano-a-mano. Hence we have to fight battles where winning diplomatically is of first order, and winning militarily is farther on down the list.
What I'm saying is: trends going back more than 50 years have culminated in the anti-insurgent techniques we're fighting today. It's not wussification, it's actually great strides in morality, in technique and technology, that are keeping the body counts down.
I submit that while we perhaps "demand" a certain level of morality in our wars (I don't really believe that at all), we put up with a much lower level of morality in execution. As a matter of fact, I can think of only one instance since WWII, with a "possible" second, where we HAVE been involved in an episode of imperialistic voyeurism that might actually have some moral justification. All the others have been pretty much a direct result of, at the very least, our meddling. At worst, totally immoral to the core adventurism playing fast and loose with any and all moral standards. (Iraq, 2003. Viet Nam. Installation of Shah of Iran. Installation of Manuel Noriega. Just to mention a few.)
Actually, the first, attacking Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, was not just morally justified, but morally imperative.
The second was the invasion of Grenada - which was a country in it's own kind of turmoil, where we really may not have had any other interest than "freeing" American students. Who actually weren't at all part of the issues in the country, despite what Clint's movie would have us believe.
It would be interesting to hear some of the moral justifications involved in all the other episodes we have indulged in.
Quote from: we vs us on March 12, 2012, 03:52:04 PM
Also: war and diplomacy have always been intertwined. As Clausewitz said: war is a continuation of politics by other means, which implies simply that war and diplomacy are two tools in the same political toolbox. I'd say the first American wars of the 21st century are ample proof of that, wouldn't you?
That's how we sleep better. . .War by definition is the failure of diplomacy. Diplomacy is negotiated agreement, the word literally means "official document or folded piece of paper."
Here we go again!
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-afghan-photos-20120418,0,5032601.story
Quote from: Gaspar on April 18, 2012, 08:26:11 AM
Here we go again!
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-afghan-photos-20120418,0,5032601.story
Anxious to get back to their old jobs as Los Zetas?