Really? You just don't make stuff like this up. Wow.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/santorum-obama-is-a-snob-because-he-wants-everybody-in-america-to-go-to-college/2012/02/25/gIQATJffaR_blog.html
If it's true that Santorum is trying to build his working class cred, he may want to consider that many in the working class are trying to see that their children have a better life by getting post-secondary education.
I can not believe that our society has stooped to this level of division and criticism. Surely there are some things that all of us can mostly agree on and imho that should be wanting a better life for our children, and that the more you learn the better your life. More learning and education are good good things to aspire towards no mater what your station, talents, skills, etc. Now they are saying that going to college is bad. Not just that not everyone can go or has to go which can indeed be a legitimate argument, but that going to college period is wrong,,, its "indoctrination". Somehow Santorum wen't to college and "turned out ok" but apparently there are plenty of other people who are, I don't know, too weak or can't be trusted to go? It's an ugly precedent to mess with. This continued dumbing down of the US and its workers, and demonization of "intellectuals", scientists and now college itself is terrible. I remember a time in our country when science was looked at as a good thing, when learning and becoming as smart as you can be was praised, not mocked and ridiculed.
Santorum and his followers aren't against education. They are against what they perceive as the indoctrination into liberal philosophies that go along with education. To them liberal is the same as anti-religious. Note, that his remarks were qualified with the phrase "unless the student is committed to his values and principals before attending". That means the student goes into the education process with pre-conceived, unchangeable, notions on critical learning issues. Which means, of course, he is a poor student and closed off to any learning which differs from his conservative judeo-christian values. I sat next to a few of those guys in classes. Why bother with the expense of college then?
Well, because in their mind they want college students to learn basic skills, technologies and accepted strategies to succeed in their chosen fields. IOW, private finishing schools, Associate degrees and vocational schools could do the same thing. Then why bother with history, humanities, sociology and art when you're just going to be dispensing drugs at a pharmacy?
When I went to college most of us were there to learn about the world using the basic knowledge we acquired in public schools as stepping stones. The Whole World. We had proved ourselves worthy by accumulating grades, honors, admittance test scores and had the drive to excel. We then looked to college to expand our abilities, provide different views of the world, develop new views, research and acquire the wisdom of past generations. We were learning how to learn. It mattered little to us if we gained the skills to operate businesses without the understanding of how we fit with the rest of the world. Somewhere along the way that all changed. When engineers were offered "English for engineers" instead of Composition, when the emphasis changed to specialization of learning rather than wholistic education the Santorum's view could flourish. After all, if you don't know anything about critical issues which require knowing how to process new information and instead rely on your Bible and your leaders to take care of such stuff, guys like the Bishop's, the Cardinals, the Santorum's and Gingrich's are infinitely more powerful.
Santorum's group just wants a business grad to learn accounting, finance, management and marketing. The rest of the world for him is his religion. We wanted to learn the basics too but we wanted to know about the rest of the world outside our religion. Santorum's group thinks that such thinking is dangerous and liberal.
Robert Heinlein summed up education succinctly:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
Quote from: Ed W on February 26, 2012, 09:42:05 AM
Robert Heinlein summed up education succinctly:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
Clearly there are holes in my education. I can currently execute 16 of those 21 with to "die gallantly" unable to yet be ascertained. That gives me an 80%. However, I have the internet and the phone book to help me solve the other 4.
Quote from: AquaMan on February 26, 2012, 09:04:58 AM
When I went to college most of us were there to learn about the world using the basic knowledge we acquired in public schools as stepping stones. The Whole World. We had proved ourselves worthy by accumulating grades, honors, admittance test scores and had the drive to excel. We then looked to college to expand our abilities, provide different views of the world, develop new views, research and acquire the wisdom of past generations. We were learning how to learn. It mattered little to us if we gained the skills to operate businesses without the understanding of how we fit with the rest of the world. Somewhere along the way that all changed. When engineers were offered "English for engineers" instead of Composition, when the emphasis changed to specialization of learning rather than wholistic education the Santorum's view could flourish. After all, if you don't know anything about critical issues which require knowing how to process new information and instead rely on your Bible and your leaders to take care of such stuff, guys like the Bishop's, the Cardinals, the Santorum's and Gingrich's are infinitely more powerful.
Most of the kids I knew in college were there primarily to continue their education into a productive career. They were mostly in Engineering and Science, such as biology, physics, math. Another large group were the Business and Education (teachers to be) students. I know there were some undecided Liberal Arts majors too but I guess I didn't hang out with them much. Along the way to our chosen careers, we were required to learn a few other things which I will agree made us more rounded than a Tech School graduate would have been. Engineers were required to take 2 semesters of "English". Those of us who did well enough in High School English and on the SAT achievement tests were allowed to skip the grammar course and take a literature course. A grade of C or better allowed us to take a second literature course. A grade of D or F in the first literature course sent you to the grammar course the next semester. I got a B in both literature courses. I also remember a couple of history courses and have forgotten a few other required elective courses. At the time, 132 hours were required for a degree in Mechanical Engineering at the University of Delaware. Most of my semesters required an 18 hour course load. Just as you don't care for "English for engineers", I think that a few hours of math and science would be good for everyone. While no one really cares about "Train A leaves the station.....", it teaches problem solving, including being able to determine what information is useful and required as well as the red wheels (useless distractions). When I complained to my dad about having to take a bunch of crappy liberal arts courses, he (also an engineer) said that they would help me to communicate with the world and that an engineer who couldn't communicate his/her ideas was pretty much useless. Engineers are typically weak in English grammar. What I see in the newspapers and on this forum, even among the well educated, leads me to believe that engineers don't have a monopoly on mediocre language skills.
The more I hear come out of his mouth, the more I turn against him. In his mind higher education is just another one of those "liberal strategies" to infiltrate the young with ideas other than his and his followers' own. In his mind offspring should not develop ideas that differ from their parents'. He seemed to be stretching himself, and his values to the max in an attempt to sweet talk voters.
Higher education is something that I believe should be strived for. Sure, it's not for everybody, but for the majority of people it would help them become more rounded and intelligent individuals, giving them a much higher chance of earning a good career when the time comes.
Quote from: AquaMan on February 26, 2012, 10:08:20 AM
Clearly there are holes in my education. I can currently execute 16 of those 21 with to "die gallantly" unable to yet be ascertained. That gives me an 80%. However, I have the internet and the phone book to help me solve the other 4.
About the same here with various levels of possible proficiency. I would rather die peacefully in my sleep than die gallantly. No jokes about the screaming passengers in the bus of the driver who passed away while driving though.
Quote from: ZYX on February 26, 2012, 10:41:41 AM
The more I hear come out of his mouth, the more I turn against him. In his mind higher education is just another one of those "liberal strategies" to infiltrate the young with ideas other than his and his followers' own. In his mind offspring should not develop ideas that differ from their parents'. He seemed to be stretching himself, and his values to the max in an attempt to sweet talk voters.
Higher education is something that I believe should be strived for. Sure, it's not for everybody, but for the majority of people it would help them become more rounded and intelligent individuals, giving them a much higher chance of earning a good career when the time comes.
Maybe it's just a stereotype but it seems that kids brought up in the strictest homes and were never taught to think for themselves have the most difficulties as adults. Preacher's kids run wild, that sort of thing.
Quote from: ZYX on February 26, 2012, 10:41:41 AM
The more I hear come out of his mouth, the more I turn against him. In his mind higher education is just another one of those "liberal strategies" to infiltrate the young with ideas other than his and his followers' own. In his mind offspring should not develop ideas that differ from their parents'. He seemed to be stretching himself, and his values to the max in an attempt to sweet talk voters.
Higher education is something that I believe should be strived for. Sure, it's not for everybody, but for the majority of people it would help them become more rounded and intelligent individuals, giving them a much higher chance of earning a good career when the time comes.
Education is evil.
At least the science part... with all it's taking away from God's glory and whatnot.
Red, I actually did well in math in high school. I took algebra, trig and calculus and struggled but passed them. When I went to college it became clear that wasn't going to be my path. A math professor told me he would let me withdraw out of his class with a passing grade if I promised to never step into the building ever again. Even as a business major I still was required to take physics, geology, statistics and some algebra. We seldom saw engineering students in literature, history, speech, journalism, political science, psychology, sociology and art history except in survey courses.
Now it seems that the well rounded student is happier as a human, but at a disadvantage in the employment market. But then who would ever have thought that your power rating in the social world, as measured by your Facebook rating or a Google search, would be as important as your general knowledge?
Quote from: AquaMan on February 26, 2012, 10:08:20 AM
Clearly there are holes in my education. I can currently execute 16 of those 21 with to "die gallantly" unable to yet be ascertained. That gives me an 80%. However, I have the internet and the phone book to help me solve the other 4.
I would add "able to change a spare tire" as one of those requirements.
Quote from: AquaMan on February 26, 2012, 11:16:29 AM
Red, I actually did well in math in high school.
I wasn't referring to you in particular but more to the general population of non-science/math students. Whenever I see the requirements to graduate from High School, it seems to rarely include anything beyond Algebra I. Someone like you should have the opportunity to get a reduced math requirement in college such as I had with the English grammar course.
QuoteNow it seems that the well rounded student is happier as a human, but at a disadvantage in the employment market.
I guess I don't know enough well rounded students that are well rounded enough to be at a disadvantage in the employment market as compared to somewhat well rounded students that have marketable skills to pass judgement on whether or not they are happier human beings.
Quote from: AquaMan on February 26, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
I would add "able to change a spare tire" as one of those requirements.
That requirement appears to be going the way of shoeing a horse. Run-flat tires and cans of inflate a tire are replacing the jack and spare tire in many cars as a weight reducing / gas mileage effort.
(http://i.qkme.me/36bovo.jpg) (http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/36bovo/)
Quote from: BKDotCom on February 26, 2012, 02:14:23 PM
(http://i.qkme.me/36bovo.jpg) (http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/36bovo/)
Funny thing is, he holds several degrees.
What a snob.
Forever now will he be known to me as Rick Snobtorum.
I thought this was an Onion article that someone misunderstood. Unfortunately it is just Santorum being Santorum. I guess I am just baffled how someone can make an issue off of a person stating they would like everyone to improve themselves as much as they can. I wish I would have had someone pushing me to go to school after I graduated HS, but honestly I don't think I would have absorbed as much as I can now as a 33 yr old. Sure there are things that I couldn't care less about, and I take those as online courses. The classes I want to learn and hold, I take in house. I can easily catch on if I feel I am getting "indoctrinated" and I have yet to get that feeling.
If I were Obama, I would just come out and say that while I would truely like everyone to get a 4 yr degree, I want everyone to do what they can to improve their future in the united states, whether it be welding school, culinary arts classes, or just a few entrepreneur classes. Do what you feel comfortable with and what puts you and your family in the best position for the future.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on February 27, 2012, 09:30:32 AM
I thought this was an Onion article that someone misunderstood. Unfortunately it is just Santorum being Santorum. I guess I am just baffled how someone can make an issue off of a person stating they would like everyone to improve themselves as much as they can. I wish I would have had someone pushing me to go to school after I graduated HS, but honestly I don't think I would have absorbed as much as I can now as a 33 yr old. Sure there are things that I couldn't care less about, and I take those as online courses. The classes I want to learn and hold, I take in house. I can easily catch on if I feel I am getting "indoctrinated" and I have yet to get that feeling.
If I were Obama, I would just come out and say that while I would truely like everyone to get a 4 yr degree, I want everyone to do what they can to improve their future in the united states, whether it be welding school, culinary arts classes, or just a few entrepreneur classes. Do what you feel comfortable with and what puts you and your family in the best position for the future.
Funny thing is, that's what Obama has been saying all along. Santorum et al have spun it to sound like he wants everyone to go to college. Same way they spun his wife's focus on a healthy diet with exercise. These guys would take Mother Theresa apart.
It's weird that Santorum has been the recipient of all this social-conservative love recently. He's Catholic, and most of the GOP socially conservative base is definitely evangelical, which is about as Protestant (in certain ways) as you get. I guess we're to that dogs-and-cats-living-together stage of the Apocalypse.
Also: if we pivot to social issues, that takes the focus away from a slowly improving economy.
He still hates college education:
Rick Santorum Blames Gay Marriage, Abortion And Porn Ideals On College Indoctrinationhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/rick-santorum-blames-gay-marriage-abortion-porn-college-indoctrination_n_2501970.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/18/rick-santorum-blames-gay-marriage-abortion-porn-college-indoctrination_n_2501970.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003)
QuoteRick Santorum said the nation's colleges are promoting a "sea of antagonism toward Christianity" and "indoctrinating" its youth with ideals that support gay marriage, abortion and pornography.
Santorum called in to Tony Perkins' "Washington Watch" on Tuesday to talk about the 40th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade ruling. The conversation dealt not only with abortion but also included other "symptoms" that have changed the nation.
Perkins spoke broadly, saying pro-choice Americans represent a troubled country that doesn't choose life, meaning "That is to follow the principals, the teachings, the instructions of God ... You see that as you've been in Washington, D.C. There is a rejection of this idea of truth, and that there is a foundation or morality, which needs to be upheld."
Santorum agreed, adding that less young people devote themselves to Christianity. "If you look at the popular culture and what comes out of Hollywood, if you go to our schools and particularly our colleges and universities, they are indoctrinated in a sea of relativism and a sea of antagonism towards Christianity."
"Abortion is a symptom. Marriage is a symptom. Pornography [is a symptom]," he continued. "All of these are symptoms to the fundamental issue that we've gotten away from the truth and the 'Truth-Giver.'"
Santorum has long been against gay marriage and anti-abortion. When he was in the running for the GOP presidential nomination, he vowed to initiate a war on porn if elected. Santorum received his undergraduate degree from Pennsylvania State University, an M.B.A. from the University of Pittsburgh and a J.D. from the Dickinson School of Law but has criticized the notion that college is a critical entry point to the middle class.
"President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college. What a snob!" Santorum said last February, according to the New York Times. "There are good, decent men and women who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to the test that aren't taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate him. I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image."
The Times highlighted a 2008 study that disproved the theory that going to college makes students increasingly liberal. The study found that 18 to 24-year-old students' ideals shifted somewhat leftward, but this was in line with normally occurring shifts in that age group regardless of education.