Might as well kick it off with everyone's favorite governor.
QuoteLove him or hate him, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker is a man who sticks by his convictions.
He started by making Wisconsin more business-friendly, then took on the public sector unions. And now, the state lawmaker that has solidified a national name for himself is taking on atheists and non-believers — over the state's "holiday" tree.
On Monday, Walker decided that he wanted to shake things up a bit. Rather than following recent tradition and referring to the (Christmas) tree that is placed in the Wisconsin's Capitol Rotunda as a "holiday tree," he's changing course. For the past 25 years, lawmakers have referred to the evergreen that is decorated with ornaments and a star with this benign, uncategorized reference. Now, Walker plans to, once again, call the tree what it is — a Christmas tree.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/atheists-angry-after-wis-gov-changes-holiday-tree-back-to-christmas-tree/
Holiday vs Christmas differs when your talking about a season or a tree. There are several religions that celebrate a holiday at this time of year, though only Christmas uses the pine tree as one of its symbols (even if it was stolen from the pagans). The stickiness of this situation is over if a government sponsored decoration should have a religious overtone to it, such as calling it a Christmas Tree (officially), though they fail to see that simply having the tree symbolizes an endorsement of one holiday over another. Of course, the radical atheists really need to get over this whole what to call it thing, and the Christian fundies really need to get past the idea that only Christians celebrate Christmas (and that it can be celebrated in a non-religious way)
What's in a name...
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=18&articleid=20111102_18_A13_CUTLIN516965
Sorry, but the only people concerned about this issue are religious nuts and bigots...
We have bigger nuts to roast and more peaceful approaches to get the important message of the season out.
word up: Peace on Earth....Goodwill to man all people.
Ah, time for that heartwarming tradition, the annual "War on Christmas" in which all the pious Christians will insist it's their right as red-blooded Americans to inflict their special myths on the rest of us. Now, did I complain about the "War on Halloween" when they insisted on having 'harvest' festivals rather than pagan displays of gluttony, nakedness, and the usual drunken orgies? I think not. I didn't whine about it, so man up you Christians, and decide if your chosen deity is bigger than a bit of fuss over a name.
You know, the western world has been going downhill ever since human sacrifice was outlawed.
Quote from: Ed W on November 08, 2011, 08:43:40 PM
Ah, time for that heartwarming tradition, the annual "War on Christmas" in which all the pious Christians will insist it's their right as red-blooded Americans to inflict their special myths on the rest of us. Now, did I complain about the "War on Halloween" when they insisted on having 'harvest' festivals rather than pagan displays of gluttony, nakedness, and the usual drunken orgies? I think not. I didn't whine about it, so man up you Christians, and decide if your chosen deity is bigger than a bit of fuss over a name.
You know, the western world has been going downhill ever since human sacrifice was outlawed.
I thought the pagans had the harvest festivals and the Christians decided to call it something that morphed into Halloween.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 08, 2011, 08:56:24 PM
I thought the pagans had the harvest festivals and the Christians decided to call it something that morphed into Halloween.
All Saints day was moved to November 1st to overshadow the Harvest festivals, making it the holy day, and the day before all hollowed eve.
Quote from: custosnox on November 08, 2011, 09:00:09 PM
All Saints day was moved to November 1st to overshadow the Harvest festivals, making it the holy day, and the day before all hollowed eve.
That sounds familiar.
Quote from: Teatownclown on November 08, 2011, 07:39:19 PM
Sorry, but the only people concerned about this issue are religious nuts and bigots...
We have bigger nuts to roast and more peaceful approaches to get the important message of the season out.
word up: Peace on Earth....Goodwill to man all people.
I'm very concerned - I want us to start celebrating ALL the major religious holidays so we can get more days off as holiday!! Eid Al-Fitr, Eid Al Adha, Hanukkah, Rosh HaShana, and a full week for Thanksgiving!!
Not Yom Kippur - I got nothing to atone for....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 08, 2011, 09:10:52 PM
I'm very concerned - I want us to start celebrating ALL the major religious holidays so we can get more days off as holiday!! Eid Al-Fitr, Eid Al Adha, Hanukkah, Rosh HaShana, and a full week for Thanksgiving!!
Not Yom Kippur - I got nothing to atone for....
I only recognize Muslim and Jewish holidays in your list. What happened to "ALL"? There have to be some eastern religious holidays we could include.
You will have to convince me you "got nothing to atone for".
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 08, 2011, 09:27:30 PM
I only recognize Muslim and Jewish holidays in your list. What happened to "ALL"? There have to be some eastern religious holidays we could include.
You will have to convince me you "got nothing to atone for".
I would include them, too. I just don't know what they are - no experience or knowledge. I have watched a few Bollywood movies and love them!! Remind me of 50's musicals.
Nothing to atone for now. Does that work better?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 08, 2011, 10:22:12 PM
Nothing to atone for now. Does that work better?
If now is limited to the last hour or so, OK.
;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 08, 2011, 10:32:33 PM
If now is limited to the last hour or so, OK.
;D
15 minute increments.
Found this over at Drudge. Christmas tree tax.
http://blog.heritage.org/2011/11/08/obama-couldnt-wait-his-new-christmas-tree-tax/
Knew it. He's taking our holidays away $.15 at a time.
Next it'll be taxes on our champagne...DANG IT, too late.
Quote from: Townsend on November 09, 2011, 01:07:40 PM
Knew it. He's taking our holidays away $.15 at a time.
Next it'll be taxes on our champagne...DANG IT, too late.
Now you are getting it.
Quote from: guido911 on November 09, 2011, 01:20:56 PM
Now you are getting it.
Maybe instead of all these silly tax codes maybe we should just have to pay $.05 every time we smile.
Quote from: Townsend on November 09, 2011, 01:33:15 PM
Maybe instead of all these silly tax codes maybe we should just have to pay $.05 every time we smile.
Bwahahaha... In other news, it looks like the tree tax is on hold.
QuoteThe U.S. Department of Agriculture is going to delay implementation and revisit a proposed new 15 cent fee on fresh-cut Christmas trees, sources tell ABC News. The fee, requested by the National Christmas Tree Association in 2009, was first announced in the Federal Registry yesterday and has generated criticism of President Obama from conservative media outlets. The well-trafficked Drudge Report is leading with the story, linking to a blog by David Addington, a former top aide to then-Vice President David Addington, at the conservative Heritage Foundation assailing the president thus: "The economy is barely growing and nine percent of the American people have no jobs. Is a new tax on Christmas trees the best President Obama can do? And, by the way, the American Christmas tree has a great image that doesn't need any help from the government."
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/11/obama-administration-to-delay-new-15-cent-christmas-tree-fee/
Quote from: guido911 on November 09, 2011, 12:45:03 PM
Found this over at Drudge. Christmas tree tax.
http://blog.heritage.org/2011/11/08/obama-couldnt-wait-his-new-christmas-tree-tax/
And now for the other side of the story
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-1109-christmas-tree-wars-20111109,0,2983619.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-1109-christmas-tree-wars-20111109,0,2983619.story)
QuoteFollowing an extended debate that pit one region against another, the Agriculture Department on Tuesday gave the green light to a new industry-funded Christmas tree promotion program.
By taxing themselves, growers will raise $2 million a year for ads promoting the merits of real, live trees. Or, at least, trees that once were living, as opposed to the artificial kind that have seized an increasing share of the holiday market.
"As demographics and buying habits have changed, we have watched the market for real trees shrink drastically, requiring us to spend much more time and money on promotion," said Don Cameron, past president of the California Christmas Tree Association.
Cameron and his wife, Carolyn, owners of a tree farm in Simi Valley, Calif., were among the 500-plus people to weigh in during the past year as the USDA considered the proposed Christmas Tree Promotion, Research and Information Order.
Akin to similar programs that promote milk, beef and cotton, the Christmas tree program will impose on U.S. domestic producers and importers an initial fee of 15 cents per tree.
Check the validity of the story when quoting Drudge.
On a positive note, I always buy fresh cut Christmas trees. Something about shopping for them brings back childhood memories.
Quote from: guido911 on November 09, 2011, 01:56:51 PM
On a positive note, I always buy fresh cut Christmas trees. Something about shopping for them brings back childhood memories.
Pre-lit LED fake one. Can't overcome the ease of it.
Quote from: Townsend on November 09, 2011, 02:08:35 PM
Pre-lit LED fake one. Can't overcome the ease of it.
Pop it open like a umbrella or does it require full size storage space?
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 09, 2011, 02:22:02 PM
Pop it open like a umbrella or does it require full size storage space?
Breaks down and slides into a small area in the attic.
Quote from: Townsend on November 09, 2011, 02:08:35 PM
Pre-lit LED fake one. Can't overcome the ease of it.
I'm a sucker for tradition so the extra effort is worthwhile. Picking out the tree with my kids and decorating it is both bonding and passes along something for them to perhaps pass along.
Quote from: guido911 on November 09, 2011, 02:39:45 PM
I'm a sucker for tradition so the extra effort is worthwhile. Picking out the tree with my kids and decorating it is both bonding and passes along something for them to perhaps pass along.
Dried pine needles?
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 09, 2011, 02:46:20 PM
Dried pine needles?
Oy, that and my Lab loves trees. If I bring one in she'd have it down and spread out in a very short time.
Quote from: Townsend on November 09, 2011, 02:47:53 PM
Oy, that and my Lab loves trees. If I bring one in she'd have it down and spread out in a very short time.
Probably better than the possibilities of
he'd....
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 09, 2011, 02:50:39 PM
Probably better than the possibilities of he'd....
I've seen the boxer (female also) lift a leg to pee on a tree. I'm sticking with the plastic and metal.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 09, 2011, 02:46:20 PM
Dried pine needles?
Those too. Cleaning up the mess is all part of it all.
Maybe that's the reason why I get a bit agitated when PC demands interfere with traditions I keep.
Quote from: joiei on November 09, 2011, 01:45:48 PM
And now for the other side of the story
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-1109-christmas-tree-wars-20111109,0,2983619.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-1109-christmas-tree-wars-20111109,0,2983619.story)
Check the validity of the story when quoting Drudge.
Jim Demint weighs in on the "stupidest tax of all time".
QuoteSo why should the government-funded Christmas Tree Promotion Board tax us to fund a marketing campaign? So the Christmas tree industry can pocket the $2 million they now won't have to spend marketing their trees.
That's it. That's the whole purpose of the Obama Christmas Tree Tax: to take money from hard-working families celebrating Christmas and give it to clever lobbyists and businessmen running a crony-capitalist subsidy scam.
And while this policy will, by design, help one group of people, it will hurt others: businesses that sell artificial Christmas trees, people who work at your local stores that sell them, and, don't forget, the consumers who are out 15 cents a tree.
Business groups using government connections to enrich themselves by hurting everyone else. Makes you just want to break into "O Holy Night," doesn't it?
http://demint.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=JimsBlog&ContentRecord_id=1b5c048c-3715-44a4-9267-1a547661b9a4
These agriculture product promotion fees/taxes have always been controversial among the producers, although they are often popular with the trade associations who tend to capture and control the fees ("Beef, what's for diinner" and "Got Milk", etc.). Everyone probably remembers the "Heard it through the Grapevine" promotion for California rasins in the 1980s. While the ads were popular and spawned a cottage industry around the rasin charecters, they did very little to increase rasin sales, which was supposed to be the whole point.
Quote from: DTowner on November 09, 2011, 04:53:33 PM
These agriculture product promotion fees/taxes have always been controversial among the producers, although they are often popular with the trade associations who tend to capture and control the fees ("Beef, what's for diinner" and "Got Milk", etc.). Everyone probably remembers the "Heard it through the Grapevine" promotion for California rasins in the 1980s. While the ads were popular and spawned a cottage industry around the rasin charecters, they did very little to increase rasin sales, which was supposed to be the whole point.
I eat raisins from time to time. Did so before the CA guys and continued after their ads. Makes no difference. Same with milk.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 10, 2011, 10:25:11 AM
I eat raisins from time to time. Did so before the CA guys and continued after their ads. Makes no difference. Same with milk.
Be sure to keep your rabbits separate from your raisin supply.
After Uproar, Government Scraps 15-Cent Christmas Tree Fee
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/11/10/142211298/after-uproar-government-scraps-15-cent-christmas-tree-fee?ft=1&f=1001&sc=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/11/10/142211298/after-uproar-government-scraps-15-cent-christmas-tree-fee?ft=1&f=1001&sc=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)
QuoteIt didn't take before the Obama administration backed down on a plan to tax Christmas trees this holiday season. Shortly after the USDA announced it had approved a 15-cent per tree fee, there was an uproar.
Critics jumped on the fee saying it would amount to a new tax because the growers would just pass the price increase along to consumers. Fox News reports that Rep. Steve Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana, dubbed the fee a "Grinch move" by the Obama administration.
Now the story is not that simple, insists the administration, which contends the fee is not a tax. Instead, it was a fee agreed to by the National Christmas Tree Association to launch an image campaign extolling the wonders of natural trees.
Late last night, however, the administration relented. The AP reports:
White House spokesman Matt Lehrich said the USDA would delay the program, but defended it, saying it was not a tax.
"I can tell you unequivocally that the Obama administration is not taxing Christmas trees," Lehrich said. "What's being talked about here is an industry group deciding to impose fees on itself to fund a promotional campaign."
That said, Lehrich added, "USDA is going to delay implementation and revisit this action."
Yesterday, the Christmas tree association issued a statement, saying the fee was "requested by the industry in 2009 and has gone through two industry-wide comment periods." They say that 90 percent of the comments indicated they were in favor of the program, which would have exempted organic farms and small growers.
As ABC News reports, this kind of program is not without precedent. One of the well-known initiatives paid for by a fee of this kind is the "Got Milk" campaign.
The fee was supposed to raise $2 million for the campaign, reports the Chicago Tribune. It was also intended to fight a decline in the sales of natural trees.
"Fresh-tree sales declined from 37 million in 1991 to 31 million in 2007, according to the USDA. Artificial tree sales, meanwhile, nearly doubled, to 17.4 million, from 2003 to 2007," the Tribune reports.
http://www.politifact.com/oregon/statements/2011/nov/09/blog-posting/republicans-bloggers-needle-obama-creating-new-tax/
blow me with that GOP/Teabagger Xmass Tree nonsense.....
Drudge is a jerk.
For David Arnett:
Cratchit Job....
Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday. The bible makes no reference to birthday celebrations when Jesus was alive, early Christians never celebrated Christmas, there is no real record of Christmas until more than 400 years after the death of Jesus and wasn't called Christ's Mass until after some thousand years after he died. Only sinners and pagans celebrated birthdays (read: rich and powerful people who had someone to keep track of such things for them). Easter is supposed to be the uber holiday of the Christian faith... but since we don't have Easter parades or giant Easter decorations adorning our government offices no one cares.
So haul in your sacred trees of life and worship the day the sun begins making longer appearances in the sky, calling it whatever you want. If your God demands you call a holiday made up centuries after his death and named a millennium after his death by a certain name, then you had better abide. You don't want to piss off your deity with such trivial details.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on November 13, 2011, 05:37:20 PM
Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday. The bible makes no reference to birthday celebrations when Jesus was alive, early Christians never celebrated Christmas, there is no real record of Christmas until more than 400 years after the death of Jesus and wasn't called Christ's Mass until after some thousand years after he died. Only sinners and pagans celebrated birthdays (read: rich and powerful people who had someone to keep track of such things for them). Easter is supposed to be the uber holiday of the Christian faith... but since we don't have Easter parades or giant Easter decorations adorning our government offices no one cares.
So haul in your sacred trees of life and worship the day the sun begins making longer appearances in the sky, calling it whatever you want. If your God demands you call a holiday made up centuries after his death and named a millennium after his death by a certain name, then you had better abide. You don't want to piss off your deity with such trivial details.
When I was a kid, "spring break" was Easter Vacation and usually included Easter Monday. Suburban Philadelphia, PA was mostly Christian and Jewish. The Jewish kids didn't seem to mind the vacation no matter what it was called. They were allowed to take off for the Jewish holidays without penalty for missing school as I remember it. I don't know if there was any significant quantity of other major religions. If there were, they didn't complain too loudly.
Where this is going is Easter Parades. What about the Easter Bonnet and the Easter Parade from the song. Seems to have faded away.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on November 13, 2011, 05:37:20 PM
Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday. The bible makes no reference to birthday celebrations when Jesus was alive, early Christians never celebrated Christmas, there is no real record of Christmas until more than 400 years after the death of Jesus and wasn't called Christ's Mass until after some thousand years after he died. Only sinners and pagans celebrated birthdays (read: rich and powerful people who had someone to keep track of such things for them). Easter is supposed to be the uber holiday of the Christian faith... but since we don't have Easter parades or giant Easter decorations adorning our government offices no one cares.
So haul in your sacred trees of life and worship the day the sun begins making longer appearances in the sky, calling it whatever you want. If your God demands you call a holiday made up centuries after his death and named a millennium after his death by a certain name, then you had better abide. You don't want to piss off your deity with such trivial details.
The Catholic Church celebrates numerous holidays/feasts throughout the year that are not spelled out in the Bible--mainly because they are in memory of Saints that may have been martyred centuries after Christ's life and death. And so what if they celebrations didn't begin until 1600-1700 years ago. Does that mean that as a Catholic my recognizing Christ's birthday, which is more than His actual birth, but the immaculate conception, His parents journey to Bethlehem, and so forth. The Church also celebrates Advent, which is a significant part of my personal faith. Please, continue mocking it though.
Quote from: guido911 on November 13, 2011, 06:30:59 PM
The Catholic Church celebrates numerous holidays/feasts throughout the year that are not spelled out in the Bible--mainly because they are in memory of Saints that may have been martyred centuries after Christ's life and death. And so what if they celebrations didn't begin until 1600-1700 years ago. Does that mean that as a Catholic my recognizing Christ's birthday, which is more than His actual birth, but the immaculate conception, His parents journey to Bethlehem, and so forth. The Church also celebrates Advent, which is a significant part of my personal faith. Please, continue mocking it though.
Many of the main stream "Christian" holidays were arranged to be celebrated on Pagan days of worship. The word Easter, in fact, comes from the goddess of fertility and rebirth. If I recall correctly her name was Etre. Sol Invictus and Apollo both were considered born on the winter soltice. The Holy day, or All Saint's day, was moved to November 1st to overshadow the fall festivals, which didn't do so well since so many Christians condemn Halloween. The point being made is that Christians are making a fuss over the naming of a day that they procured from other cultures and beliefs.
Quote from: custosnox on November 13, 2011, 07:07:53 PM
Many of the main stream "Christian" holidays were arranged to be celebrated on Pagan days of worship. The word Easter, in fact, comes from the goddess of fertility and rebirth. If I recall correctly her name was Etre. Sol Invictus and Apollo both were considered born on the winter soltice. The Holy day, or All Saint's day, was moved to November 1st to overshadow the fall festivals, which didn't do so well since so many Christians condemn Halloween. The point being made is that Christians are making a fuss over the naming of a day that they procured from other cultures and beliefs.
And again, does it matter? I don't care what the source is/was for these holidays or why they are on the dates they are. Right now, in 2011, Christmas is celebrated on December 25. It has been my entire life. When I celebrate Christmas, I am not celebrating anything remotely pagan. To me, folks that even make that the argument for taking Christianity out of Christmas are desperate. Don't like Christmas or what it stands for, don't celebrate it. Just don't run me down because I choose to, or if I want some of the trappings associated with Christmas like parades, tree lightings, etc. which has been a large part of my family tradition.
Quote from: guido911 on November 13, 2011, 07:48:56 PM
And again, does it matter?
If you are firm in your beliefs, it doesn't matter what others think. I do think you are being a bit overly defensive when others make statements of their beliefs that do not coincide with yours. Although some may be mocking your beliefs, most others just don't agree.
I think many religious ceremonies are man made. If they develop to symbolize something to the believers, that's fine. I believe that the early Christians adopted many pagan holidays and gave them Christian meaning to attract new members. That's OK by me. If you cannot accept that, that's OK too.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 13, 2011, 08:18:39 PM
If you are firm in your beliefs, it doesn't matter what others think. I do think you are being a bit overly defensive when others make statements of their beliefs that do not coincide with yours. Although some may be mocking your beliefs, most others just don't agree.
I think many religious ceremonies are man made. If they develop to symbolize something to the believers, that's fine. I believe that the early Christians adopted many pagan holidays and gave them Christian meaning to attract new members. That's OK by me. If you cannot accept that, that's OK too.
Christmas is not a Christian holiday is a belief structure?
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 12:11:20 PM
Christmas is not a Christian holiday is a belief structure?
Christmas as Christian holiday is an article of faith. The secular part of the celebration - also called Christmas - (everything outside the part related to Christ's birth) is the renamed, re-purposed celebration of the winter solstice. Got two things going on at once under a single umbrella nomenclature.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 12:11:20 PM
Christmas is not a Christian holiday is a belief structure?
The concept that the Christmas celebration was created to coincide with a pagan holiday doesn't mean that it's not now a Christian celebration. I don't think many, if any, are trying to start a religion based on that concept.
Guido:
1) You started a threat called "Christmas Season v. Holiday Season" which started with an article discussing putting more of the celebration of Jesus' birth into government - then you complain about the responses? The ONLY reason anyone commented anything about this was because you brought it to light. It's not like I, or anyone else, went out of our way to tell you we disagree with your opinion or beliefs. If you don't want others to disagree with your beliefs then keep them to yourself, but if you choose to speak about them then you should expect, and welcome, discord.
2)
QuoteDon't like Christmas or what it stands for, don't celebrate it. Just don't run me down because I choose to, or if I want some of the trappings associated with Christmas like parades, tree lightings, etc. which has been a large part of my family tradition.
I have no problem with Christmas and to a large extent I do celebrate it. I will not "run you down" because you choose to celebrate it nor take issue with your family traditions. However, the basis of this thread was that government should not celebrate "the holidays" but should celebrate the birth of a particular religion's deity and adopt the traditions, symbolism, and even language associated with that holiday.
It is on that basis that I disagree. You can call it desperate if you want - but I find it off that with a belief in a trio of omnipotent beings the vernacular used to describe an evergreen tree is of such importance. If the State of Oklahoma has a Christmas Tree, a Holiday Tree, a Pagan Tree of Life, or no tree at all... it will not interfere with what you celebrate or your families traditions.
However, if a State instution adopts a religious icon from a particular group it IS to the detriment of every other group. Even if, nay, especially when the religious icon represents the majority. The State should strive to avoid even the mere appearance of favoring one religion over the other - particularily when, by your own statements, the State's failure to adopt such a tradition will not impair those that wish to partake.
In other words... having no Christmas tree doesn't hurt anyone, having one does to at least a minimal extent. And for the record, I will erect a Christmas tree at my house, my family owns a Christmas tree farm, and my family and I will drive around enjoying the Christmas lights. It's not personal for me, but the principle still matters.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 14, 2011, 12:56:50 PM
Christmas as Christian holiday is an article of faith.
My Grandparents were (they have both passed on) Jehovah's Witnesses. They did not celebrate Christmas. They said it was not in the Bible to celebrate the birth of Christ.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 09, 2011, 02:46:20 PM
Dried pine needles?
Don't forget the annual opportunity to rearrange your funiture in favor of a large fire hazzard.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on November 14, 2011, 01:02:22 PM
Guido:
1) You started a threat called "Christmas Season v. Holiday Season" which started with an article discussing putting more of the celebration of Jesus' birth into government - then you complain about the responses? The ONLY reason anyone commented anything about this was because you brought it to light. It's not like I, or anyone else, went out of our way to tell you we disagree with your opinion or beliefs. If you don't want others to disagree with your beliefs then keep them to yourself, but if you choose to speak about them then you should expect, and welcome, discord.
2)
I have no problem with Christmas and to a large extent I do celebrate it. I will not "run you down" because you choose to celebrate it nor take issue with your family traditions. However, the basis of this thread was that government should not celebrate "the holidays" but should celebrate the birth of a particular religion's deity and adopt the traditions, symbolism, and even language associated with that holiday.
It is on that basis that I disagree. You can call it desperate if you want - but I find it off that with a belief in a trio of omnipotent beings the vernacular used to describe an evergreen tree is of such importance. If the State of Oklahoma has a Christmas Tree, a Holiday Tree, a Pagan Tree of Life, or no tree at all... it will not interfere with what you celebrate or your families traditions.
However, if a State instution adopts a religious icon from a particular group it IS to the detriment of every other group. Even if, nay, especially when the religious icon represents the majority. The State should strive to avoid even the mere appearance of favoring one religion over the other - particularily when, by your own statements, the State's failure to adopt such a tradition will not impair those that wish to partake.
In other words... having no Christmas tree doesn't hurt anyone, having one does to at least a minimal extent. And for the record, I will erect a Christmas tree at my house, my family owns a Christmas tree farm, and my family and I will drive around enjoying the Christmas lights. It's not personal for me, but the principle still matters.
I am only "complaining" about one response--and that would be yours. You are the one that seriously stated that "Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday." And I didn't start this thread to champion government involving itself in religious matters. Personally, I don't want government actively interfering with decades or even centuries of traditions held by families all over this country. If a town has had "Christmas" parades or "Christmas tree lightings" on its square for decades, why can't it be left alone?. If you don't like it, don't go. People shouldn't feel threatened or freak out if that governor who called a Christmas tree what he believes it to be, which was what my initial post was pointing out.
You know, we managed to get by as a country for 200 plus years with Christmas trees and parades before the PC crowd in recent years discovered their collective panties could no long be unwadded.
Quote from: carltonplace on November 14, 2011, 01:19:51 PM
Don't forget the annual opportunity to rearrange your funiture in favor of a large fire hazzard.
Well there's that. Should I move my Christmas tree away from the fire place?
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 14, 2011, 01:09:53 PM
My Grandparents were (they have both passed on) Jehovah's Witnesses. They did not celebrate Christmas. They said it was not in the Bible to celebrate the birth of Christ.
I try to stay focused on what I consider the true meaning of Christmas according to my faith. Anticipation and hope. I can see how some folks take the position that since Christ's birth was not celebrated in the Bible that it should not be celebrated. But as I wrote earlier, there is so much in the Bible about the foretelling of Jesus' coming and the miracles leading up to his birth that in my opinion are what Christmas is about.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 01:28:47 PM
the PC crowd in recent years discovered their collective panties could no long be unwadded.
My opinion is there's uncalled for wadding on both sides of the issue.
The holiday parade is an example. It's privately funded and the organizers decided to make it more inclusive. The wads were massive.
Strangely, the wads were much more apparent 3 years after the change when Inhofe noticed the parade he was riding in each year was not named "christmas"
so you agree that Christmas isn't about parades or trees? Then why page after page of you arguing with people about it.
Your primary concern is that government should celebrate your religious holiday in your family's tradition. Your not defending any actual belief. Which is why you failed to address the merits of my reply. In short - why insist on the State recognizing religious practices?
Tradition alone is not a reason to continue a practice.
And clearly my "Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday" hyperbole was followed up by my actual talking points. Not sure what in there is offensive as it is all very bland, largely referencing the fact that religions always steal ideas from each other. It shouldn't be offensive that Christianty, which is after all practiced by people, is no different in that respect than any other religion. Pagans didn't go from Roman goddesses to modern christians straight away.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 01:42:52 PM
I try to stay focused on what I consider the true meaning of Christmas according to my faith. Anticipation and hope. I can see how some folks take the position that since Christ's birth was not celebrated in the Bible that it should not be celebrated. But as I wrote earlier, there is so much in the Bible about the foretelling of Jesus' coming and the miracles leading up to his birth that in my opinion are what Christmas is about.
The only reason I brought up the Witnesses is to show that even within Christianity, there are differences of opinion about the Christmas celebration.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 14, 2011, 01:09:53 PM
My Grandparents were (they have both passed on) Jehovah's Witnesses. They did not celebrate Christmas. They said it was not in the Bible to celebrate the birth of Christ.
You are right, some don't - but it has been defined by many as a celebration of the birth. Has become much more elaborate celebration, but I believe that yes it was in the Bible to celebrate the birth - the visit by the three guys with gifts, etc. Small, but still, in my opinion that sets the precedent.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 01:42:52 PM
I try to stay focused on what I consider the true meaning of Christmas according to my faith. Anticipation and hope. I can see how some folks take the position that since Christ's birth was not celebrated in the Bible that it should not be celebrated.
From previous note; when I read the stories, it feels to me like it was a celebration - a birthday party, if you will - of His birth. At the very least the first birthday. Now, there is much more involved, most of which I don't really care for very much.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on November 14, 2011, 01:52:36 PM
so you agree that Christmas isn't about parades or trees? Then why page after page of you arguing with people about it.
Your primary concern is that government should celebrate your religious holiday in your family's tradition. Your not defending any actual belief. Which is why you failed to address the merits of my reply. In short - why insist on the State recognizing religious practices?
Page after page? Care to show me what you are talking about. And I said nothing about government celebrating anything. I don't want it in the way. You, on the other hand, want government in the way and want government to say to me, "No, you can't use our city streets for your parade." It's a matter of perspective I guess.
To me, Christmas is not about its trappings, but I still take my kids to Christmas events, parades, put up a Christmas tree, watch "It's a Wonderful Life" and "A Christmas Story" and "Scrooged", see the Nutcracker, go to Silver Dollar City's Christmas event, have a family dinner, open gifts, and attend Mass because its fun and brings back personal memories of when I was young.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 14, 2011, 01:59:02 PM
The only reason I brought up the Witnesses is to show that even within Christianity, there are differences of opinion about the Christmas celebration.
Oh I got that. And I have known about that particular faith's position on Christmas.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 01:29:53 PM
Well there's that. Should I move my Christmas tree away from the fire place?
No, Santa won't be able to find it. He's not Jesus after all.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 02:08:39 PM
Oh I got that. And I have known about that particular faith's position on Christmas.
And I also know about the less than friendly relationship between the Catholic church and the Witnesses.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 14, 2011, 01:59:40 PM
but I believe that yes it was in the Bible to celebrate the birth - the visit by the three guys with gifts, etc. Small, but still, in my opinion that sets the precedent.
I'm going to side with my Grandparents as far as it not being in the Bible. I know that they read the Bible for themselves (and in their Bible study groups) and did not rely on someone else to interpret it for them. I will diverge from their opinion by saying that I am not aware that it said the birth could not be celebrated.
With young, heathen cats in the house I won't be putting a tree up this year anyway unless i care to tip it right side up again every evening when I come home from work.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 02:07:41 PM
To me, Christmas is not about its trappings, but I still take my kids to Christmas events, parades, put up a Christmas tree, watch "It's a Wonderful Life" and "A Christmas Story" and "Scrooged", see the Nutcracker, go to Silver Dollar City's Christmas event, have a family dinner, open gifts, and attend Mass because its fun and brings back personal memories of when I was young.
Same stuff we have always done. Good list!!
Gonna miss Silver Dollar City this year, though. Sadness.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 14, 2011, 02:21:42 PM
With young, heathen cats in the house I won't be putting a tree up this year anyway unless i care to tip it right side up again every evening when I come home from work.
Hang it upside down from your ceiling. I used to do that for an old employer.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 14, 2011, 02:21:42 PM
With young, heathen cats in the house I won't be putting a tree up this year anyway unless i care to tip it right side up again every evening when I come home from work.
Put the tree in a corner and put some anchors in the wall. Tie some strings to the anchors and the tree. It kept the tree upright when I was a kid and we had pets as well as kids in the house.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 14, 2011, 02:30:37 PM
Put the tree in a corner and put some anchors in the wall. Tie some strings to the anchors and the tree. It kept the tree upright when I was a kid and we had pets as well as kids in the house.
Or just roast the cats for an early Christmas dinner....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 14, 2011, 02:32:18 PM
Or just roast the cats for an early Christmas dinner....
Get 'im Artist
Am wondering how long until the howls start?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 14, 2011, 02:39:16 PM
Am wondering how long until the howls start?
I think the moon was recently full so it will be a few weeks.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 14, 2011, 02:10:48 PM
And I also know about the less than friendly relationship between the Catholic church and the Witnesses.
I have no problem with Witnesses. I know several and I sometimes read their literature.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 14, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
Same stuff we have always done. Good list!!
Gonna miss Silver Dollar City this year, though. Sadness.
I personally think that Christmas in Branson is a "can't miss". I got hooked when the Rockettes put on their Christmas show years back.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 02:07:41 PM
And I said nothing about government celebrating anything. I don't want it in the way. You, on the other hand, want government in the way and want government to say to me, "No, you can't use our city streets for your parade." It's a matter of perspective I guess.
Again, I have no problem whatsoever with whatever it is you want to do for whatever religious holiday you want. I'm not sure how I can be more clear on that. Maybe I need all caps: ANY INDIVIDUAL SHOULD BE ABLE TO CELEBRATE RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS AS THEY SEE FIT.
And I never once said I want the government "in the way" or that I want the government to forbid Christmas parades on streets. That has not even happened that I am aware of. Straw man after straw man you skip over the very point of the discussion. I must not have been clear, to put it as simply as possible:
I want to maintain the constitutional mandated separation of church and state.
That includes keeping public buildings free of religious icons and avoiding the appearance of favoring one religion over and therefore to the detriment of any other belief system. I don't want my government putting up a Christ tree in my Courthouse, or a Menorah, or a big black cube for Muslims to walk around in counter-clockwise circles, and I don't want a banner reading "your belief in a bronze-age magic invisible man is ridiculous" (I realize these statements are obtuse). An individual should have the right to have a Christmas parade, to put a Christmas tree up - even in the Courthouse or the capital (so long as others are then given an opportunity to also celebrate in that public space), and certainly should have the right to stand on any street corner or public space and press his beliefs on others. But government has no place in supporting such things in any way, the Oklahoma Constitution is even more clear than the well flushed Federal law on the issue:
QuoteOklahoma Constitution, Article 2, § 5, the Bill of Rights:
Public money or property - Use for sectarian purposes.
No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=84812
Using public money to display iconography celebrating the birth of your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on public property is at least indirectly supporting the mainstream Christian religion. That's my only problem. Not your personal interest in the holiday or anyone elses desire to express their beliefs...
As a fun aside, and I've been dying for an excuse to post this...
QuoteOklahoma Constitution, Article 1, § 2. Religious liberty - Polygamous or plural marriages.
Perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of the State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; and no religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. Polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.
Is it just me or when that was written did it basically say "Everyone's religious practices are secured, except the Mormons." It takes a special kind to go there in the same section.
Quote from: guido911 on November 14, 2011, 05:11:56 PM
I personally think that Christmas in Branson is a "can't miss". I got hooked when the Rockettes put on their Christmas show years back.
There is a really great band doing concerts up there this month and next. Brule. Good stuff - saw them on PBS a few weeks ago.
Oops...last day is the 19th Nov.
Would have to be this weekend. I may have to run up there real quick...
Quote from: cannon_fodder on November 14, 2011, 06:35:21 PM
ANY INDIVIDUAL SHOULD BE ABLE TO CELEBRATE RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS AS THEY SEE FIT.
Meh, I'm cool with that until it annoys me.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 14, 2011, 10:05:57 PM
There is a really great band doing concerts up there this month and next. Brule. Good stuff - saw them on PBS a few weeks ago.
Oops...last day is the 19th Nov.
Would have to be this weekend. I may have to run up there real quick...
It's a great venue too.
The CHRISTMAS tree lighting and parade at SDC is really a memory creator. Nothing like seeing the joy in small children's faces...
Not too off topic, but Beck gives women's shelter $55K to offset loss of government money because shelter has, gulp, Bible readings. I love the last minute because it goes right to the heart of the Jesus fear.
And I am not a Beck fan.
Quote from: guido911 on November 15, 2011, 03:40:04 PM
Not too off topic, but Beck gives women's shelter $55K to offset loss of government money because shelter has, gulp, Bible readings. I love the last minute because it goes right to the heart of the Jesus fear.
And I am not a Beck fan.
Beck??
I see the microphone, but where's the two turntables?
Please Guido. Why reach into the bottom of the barrel?
And who can stand 10 seconds of this idiot? 7 minutes? Seriously? In that time, Glenn could explain how evolution is not real....
Quote from: Teatownclown on November 15, 2011, 04:22:36 PM
Please Guido. Why reach into the bottom of the barrel?
And who can stand 10 seconds of this idiot? 7 minutes? Seriously? In that time, Glenn could explain how evolution is not real....
Yeah, Beck bailing out a women's shelter because it DARES to have a religious undertone is so bottom of the barrel.
Quote from: Teatownclown on November 15, 2011, 04:22:36 PM
Please Guido. Why reach into the bottom of the barrel?
And who can stand 10 seconds of this idiot? 7 minutes? Seriously? In that time, Glenn could explain how evolution is not real....
You and him should get a 2 top together......
Quote from: guido911 on November 15, 2011, 05:34:39 PM
Yeah, Beck bailing out a women's shelter because it DARES to have a religious undertone is so bottom of the barrel.
The real reason for the donation is that it panders right to his audience, get his audience stirred up, and gets him attention/
Quote from: BKDotCom on November 16, 2011, 07:01:51 AM
The real reason for the donation is that it panders right to his audience, get his audience stirred up, and gets him attention/
Ding Ding Ding balloons and confetti.
Quote from: guido911 on November 15, 2011, 05:34:39 PM
Yeah, Beck bailing out a women's shelter because it DARES to have a religious undertone is so bottom of the barrel.
Making smile up, on the other hand, is not bottom of the barrel. Please point to the regulation that caused this women's shelter to lose funding because it has bible readings. (which is different than it being effectively a religious institution. If it is operating as a religious institution, it shouldn't be getting government money in the first place)
Also, I doubt $55,000 runs a women's shelter. Where are they getting the rest of the money?
Quote from: nathanm on November 16, 2011, 04:34:58 PM
Making smile up, on the other hand, is not bottom of the barrel. Please point to the regulation that caused this women's shelter to lose funding because it has bible readings. (which is different than it being effectively a religious institution. If it is operating as a religious institution, it shouldn't be getting government money in the first place)
Also, I doubt $55,000 runs a women's shelter. Where are they getting the rest of the money?
Do your own research. I am going with what the woman told Beck. And it's a women's shelter, not a religious institution. You are approaching another Clavin moment...
Quote from: nathanm on November 16, 2011, 04:34:58 PM
Making smile up, on the other hand, is not bottom of the barrel. Please point to the regulation that caused this women's shelter to lose funding because it has bible readings. (which is different than it being effectively a religious institution. If it is operating as a religious institution, it shouldn't be getting government money in the first place)
Also, I doubt $55,000 runs a women's shelter. Where are they getting the rest of the money?
Did they
whored hoard the rest themselves?
(http://cdn.wg.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/hookers.jpg)
Quote from: guido911 on November 15, 2011, 02:53:51 PM
It's a great venue too.
The CHRISTMAS tree lighting and parade at SDC is really a memory creator. Nothing like seeing the joy in small children's faces...
Love the tree lighting at SDC! Just like SDC in general. A lot. Would love to work there, but they aren't building the cabins for the campground anymore, so don't know what I would do. Maybe a little blacksmithing.
Saw the Rushmore concert on TV and that would be my ultimate venue for them, but would still like to see at Branson.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 14, 2011, 01:59:40 PM
Has become much more elaborate celebration, but I believe that yes it was in the Bible to celebrate the birth - the visit by the three guys with gifts, etc. Small, but still, in my opinion that sets the precedent.
The three wise men did not visit Jesus at his birth. If a manger scene shows them there with gifts it doesn't follow the Biblical account. They arrived possibly years after his birth with their gifts, when Jesus was perhaps 2 years old and I don't recall the date being related to the day he was born.
The three gifts from the wise men were gold, francincense, and myrrh.
We all know what gold is. Frankincense and myrrh were tree sap, or a salve, kinda like petroleum jelly.
What kind of gifts were those?
You got to be really, really good friends with someone to give them petroleum jelly as a gift.
I'm just saying.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on November 17, 2011, 09:38:25 AM
You got to be really, really good friends with someone to give them petroleum jelly as a gift.
Things sometimes change in relative value.
The top of the Washington Monument is a piece of aluminum. When it was put there, aluminum was expensive stuff.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on November 17, 2011, 09:38:25 AM
The three gifts from the wise men were gold, francincense, and myrrh.
We all know what gold is. Frankincense and myrrh were tree sap, or a salve, kinda like petroleum jelly.
What kind of gifts were those?
You got to be really, really good friends with someone to give them petroleum jelly as a gift.
I'm just saying.
I have a little gift pack of F and M. They are granules of scented material that have the appearance of a solid resin.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 17, 2011, 11:15:10 AM
I have a little gift pack of F and M. They are granules of scented material that have the appearance of a solid resin.
That could describe the gifts my dog leaves in the backyard.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 17, 2011, 12:28:00 PM
That could describe the gifts my dog leaves in the backyard.
Ouch! Those dogs need some fiber if they are doing that....
Chicago news anchor takes it upon herself to tell everyone watching there is no Santa Claus (around 3:00 of first clip).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/02/news-anchor-santa-denial-_n_1125422.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003
She later under pressure apologized.
It's Beginning to Sound a Lot Like Christmas
http://www.truth-out.org/its-beginning-sound-lot-christmas/1322695723
"There is not much to like about the Christmas season anymore, and the relentless barrage of Christmas music has gone from being the main agitator in my mind to the last turn of a long, sharp screw." "So, yeah, I love Christmas and hate the Christmas season, and you can keep the music."
" WWJB: What Would Jesus Buy? A little bread, a little wine, and a little quiet time to contemplate what is most important in life."
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 17, 2011, 02:24:56 PM
Ouch! Those dogs need some fiber if they are doing that....
Water. Dehydration makes it look more like something you'd expect to see from a rabbit. ;)
Quote from: nathanm on December 02, 2011, 06:42:58 PM
Water. Dehydration makes it look more like something you'd expect to see from a rabbit. ;)
From Christmas to doggy-do. No one can say there is limited diversity here!
Bibi's Christmas message to, I'm going to say it, Christians. Ducking and donning Kevlar.
Eff you Santa.
QuoteA Massachusetts school system is embroiled in a war on Christmas debate after Santa Claus was initially banned from visiting elementary school children over "religious" concerns.
Since 1960 firefighters in the town of Saugus dressed up like Santa Claus and visited every elementary school handing out coloring books. But on Monday, the school superintendent told firefighters that they would not be welcomed into the classrooms.
Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/war-christmas/2011/12/20/school-bans-santa-over-religious-concerns#ixzz1h7Q2Kv1N
http://nation.foxnews.com/war-christmas/2011/12/20/school-bans-santa-over-religious-concerns#ixzz1h763GCBt
Quote from: guido911 on December 20, 2011, 04:59:23 PM
Eff you Santa.
http://nation.foxnews.com/war-christmas/2011/12/20/school-bans-santa-over-religious-concerns#ixzz1h763GCBt
That's an awfully short blurb. Think there's more to the story?
Quote from: Townsend on December 20, 2011, 05:04:13 PM
That's an awfully short blurb. Think there's more to the story?
Good call. There was more to the story in that article:
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-bans-santa-claus.html
Don't bother with it because the AP reported this morning that Santa has been un Effed.
Quote
The town's superintendent on Monday announced that he was ending a nearly 50-year-old tradition of off-duty firefighters dressed as Santa visiting elementary schools to hand out coloring books and crayons to children because he said Santa is a religious figure.
Richard Langlois reversed his decision later in the day after an outcry from firefighters and citizens who say Santa is a secular symbol.
Fire Chief James Blanchard told The Daily Item of Lynn he was "taken aback" by the original decision, but is glad it was reversed.
School Committee member Arthur Grabowski says the superintendent didn't consult the board before making the original decision he said was "political correctness gone awry."
The superintendent said the tradition will be revisited next year.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/12/santa_claus_to_visit_schools_i.html
Quote from: Townsend on December 20, 2011, 05:04:13 PM
That's an awfully short blurb. Think there's more to the story?
Yeah, only a public school product would claim Santa is a religious symbol. He's far more secular than Hanukah Harry.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 20, 2011, 06:46:09 PM
Yeah, only a public school product would claim Santa is a religious symbol. He's far more secular than Hanukah Harry.
Santa has a stronger Christian root than Christmas does, when it comes right down to it. Watched a documentary recently on it, was pretty surprised at what all has been thrown into it. But still, has some nice pagan items dashed in just to help it along in that Christmas kind of way.
Only idiots equate Hannukah (that's the Bachman Romney spelling) with Christmas. Hanukkah is a secondary occasion. Christmas is a primary observance.
(http://C:%5CUsers%5CMichael%20J%20Sanditen%5CPictures%5CDell%20Image%20Expert%20Images%5CHannukahHarry.gif)
Jesus would slap the smile out of you.... :-\
I am so done with the arguement of "christmas" vs "holidays". Please explain to me how 3 wise men bringing gifts to baby jesus in a manger has ANYTHING to do with the exchanging of presents during "christmas". The evolution of "christmas" is driven by the desire to make money and not due to Jesus being the reason for the season. If that was the case, then everyone would be bringing gifts to church for baby jesus to partake, because it is the giving that counts, right? And how does Santa play into this whole thing???? Oh wait, we needed a symbol for gift giving season, because sitting on Jesus' lap and telling him what you want for Christmas was too much? The whole thing is a mongolian cluster****. Just call it what it is, a headache. Trying to do anything considered normal during this time of year is pointless. Make sure you have a months worth of groceries and pick up the rest at QT. Stay away from anything resembling a Box store and cross your fingers that the game, movie, or XXXXXXX you want doesn't come out from the end of Nov to approx Jan 5th.
But of course, now that I have a kiddo... my perception has to change. This is my last year of audible negativity towards christmas, next year she will understand more of what I am saying.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on December 22, 2011, 10:31:48 AM
I am so done with the arguement of "christmas" vs "holidays". Please explain to me how 3 wise men bringing gifts to baby jesus in a manger has ANYTHING to do with the exchanging of presents during "christmas". The evolution of "christmas" is driven by the desire to make money and not due to Jesus being the reason for the season. If that was the case, then everyone would be bringing gifts to church for baby jesus to partake, because it is the giving that counts, right? And how does Santa play into this whole thing???? Oh wait, we needed a symbol for gift giving season, because sitting on Jesus' lap and telling him what you want for Christmas was too much? The whole thing is a mongolian cluster****. Just call it what it is, a headache. Trying to do anything considered normal during this time of year is pointless. Make sure you have a months worth of groceries and pick up the rest at QT. Stay away from anything resembling a Box store and cross your fingers that the game, movie, or XXXXXXX you want doesn't come out from the end of Nov to approx Jan 5th.
But of course, now that I have a kiddo... my perception has to change. This is my last year of audible negativity towards christmas, next year she will understand more of what I am saying.
FWIW, Tulsa Hills seems to be less crowded than Woodland Hills and that part of 71st Street.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on December 22, 2011, 10:31:48 AM
I am so done with the arguement of "christmas" vs "holidays". Please explain to me how 3 wise men bringing gifts to baby jesus in a manger has ANYTHING to do with the exchanging of presents during "christmas". The evolution of "christmas" is driven by the desire to make money and not due to Jesus being the reason for the season. If that was the case, then everyone would be bringing gifts to church for baby jesus to partake, because it is the giving that counts, right? And how does Santa play into this whole thing???? Oh wait, we needed a symbol for gift giving season, because sitting on Jesus' lap and telling him what you want for Christmas was too much? The whole thing is a mongolian cluster****. Just call it what it is, a headache. Trying to do anything considered normal during this time of year is pointless. Make sure you have a months worth of groceries and pick up the rest at QT. Stay away from anything resembling a Box store and cross your fingers that the game, movie, or XXXXXXX you want doesn't come out from the end of Nov to approx Jan 5th.
But of course, now that I have a kiddo... my perception has to change. This is my last year of audible negativity towards christmas, next year she will understand more of what I am saying.
The gift giving has some roots in the manger story, as the wise men brought gifts for their new king. It was expanded on by Saint Nicholas, who was a bishop at the time, was known for giving gold to one of his neighbors so that his daughters would have a dowry, thus not be sold into prostitution. After that, Saint Nicholas picked up a few more traits and customs before migrating to the U.S. after winning the revolutionary war. At the time, the newly founded country was looking for something, anything, that was NOT English, and Saint Nick fit the bill. Over the next century he slowly started to transform into the image we recognize today through newspaper cartoons by such artists as Thomas Nast and books as "a Visit from St. Nicholas" (more known as "Twas the night before Christmas"). The image was brought into it's current incarnation by Coca-Cola, and thus began the exploitation of Christmas. So yes, both have something to do with Christianity. If you really want to ask questions about it, you should ask about the origin of the "Christmas" Tree, or the meaning of trivial decorations, or even why the day is celebrated around the winter solstice when by all accounts Jesus was either born in Spring, or as more are starting to agree, in Fall.
Just wait until I start having fun with Easter ;D
But then again, I also think we need to bring Krampus over here
http://www.brutalashell.com/2009/12/krampus-the-german-christmas-demon/
Quote from: custosnox on December 22, 2011, 11:19:12 AM
It was expanded on by Saint Nicholas, who was a bishop at the time, was known for giving gold to one of his neighbors so that his daughters would have a dowry, thus not be sold into prostitution.
Good old days.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 22, 2011, 10:38:40 AM
FWIW, Tulsa Hills seems to be less crowded than Woodland Hills and that part of 71st Street.
As long as you enter and exit through 81st, you are golden.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on December 22, 2011, 12:47:07 PM
As long as you enter and exit through 81st, you are golden.
Since I am usually arriving from Riverside Airport, that is the way I normally enter the shopping area.