Was talking to a friend today and he mentioned a convention he went to this week downtown in the Hyatt, Oklahoma Association of Optometric Physicians. Last few years they have had it at the Rennaissance in South Tulsa in the fall and in the spring they have it in OKC. This year they decided to have it downtown. There are some 300 plus doctors that go to this convention from all over the state and some from out of state.
Before the convention even started there were some complaints about having the convention downtown "where the parking would not be as easy"... and sure enough, though there was a parking garage available, the street was blocked off because of the Route 66 Marathon, so many couldn't get into the garage. Remember, many are out of town people already not familiar with downtown. Then those that did get in early enough before the run, couldn't get out of the garage because the card readers often did not work well. Many had to pay twice to get out of the garage, the Williams Parking Garage. Neither of those things, the run blocking off the street before a convention meeting where people were supposed to be at a certain place at a certain time, and then the hassle of the parking garage ticket system, left a good impression to say the least.
Someone needs to check these things before they block off streets downtown.
Another small annoyance that was mentioned, the coffee shop in the Hyatt did not open till 9 after many of the meetings had already started at 8.
Others mentioned that in OKC, and other cities, when you left the hotels there were signs that told you where to go to find places to eat. They do not have that here and many people ended up going to places like Cherry Street. Lots of people again complained that there were "lots of places to eat around the Rennaissance, but nothing here in downtown". Unless your a native familiar with downtown and know where the things are.
These are many of the same people who go to a similar convention in Kansas City. I have been told that they have a far easier time finding places downtown there. There are skybridges and signage that send you to certain "areas" filled with restaurants.
Just wanted to put this out there as to what I was hearing as an fyi.
Quote from: TheArtist on October 18, 2011, 10:15:39 PM
Was talking to a friend today and he mentioned a convention he went to this week downtown in the Hyatt, Oklahoma Association of Optometric Physicians. Last few years they have had it at the Rennaissance in South Tulsa in the fall and in the spring they have it in OKC. This year they decided to have it downtown. There are some 300 plus doctors that go to this convention from all over the state and some from out of state.
Before the convention even started there were some complaints about having the convention downtown "where the parking would not be as easy"... and sure enough, though there was a parking garage available, the street was blocked off because of the Route 66 Marathon, so many couldn't get into the garage. Remember, many are out of town people already not familiar with downtown. Then those that did get in early enough before the run, couldn't get out of the garage because the card readers often did not work well. Many had to pay twice to get out of the garage, the Williams Parking Garage. Neither of those things, the run blocking off the street before a convention meeting where people were supposed to be at a certain place at a certain time, and then the hassle of the parking garage ticket system, left a good impression to say the least.
Someone needs to check these things before they block off streets downtown.
Another small annoyance that was mentioned, the coffee shop in the Hyatt did not open till 9 after many of the meetings had already started at 8.
Others mentioned that in OKC, and other cities, when you left the hotels there were signs that told you where to go to find places to eat. They do not have that here and many people ended up going to places like Cherry Street. Lots of people again complained that there were "lots of places to eat around the Rennaissance, but nothing here in downtown". Unless your a native familiar with downtown and know where the things are.
These are many of the same people who go to a similar convention in Kansas City. I have been told that they have a far easier time finding places downtown there. There are skybridges and signage that send you to certain "areas" filled with restaurants.
Just wanted to put this out there as to what I was hearing as an fyi.
We need a semi-official delegation to go to conventions nationwide, talk to convention planners in other states, and get some training. I am available as a consultant at reasonable rates. Professional conference/convention attendee.
To your point about information for attendees;
I get to attend at least one or two a year in far flung places form here. Was at one in Anaheim Convention Center that was very well planned and executed. The entire process just flowed smoothly. While there, I traveled over to Long Beach (to visit West Coast Choppers) and ran into a Toyota sponsored Indy car road race that was going on near the aquarium.
In spite of the millions of people in the area (within 20 miles), and the normal crowds for attractions like the aquarium, it was well marked and directed and I had good results getting where I was going. Of course, the LA area has plenty of experience with a wide variety of activities scaled to their situation. We should certainly be able to learn appropriate techniques for our size situation.
Last year, went to Anaheim for another one, and earlier, San Diego (smaller venue in smaller town). Both, again, well done, organized, planned, and executed. No traffic problems. Found great places to eat.
Wanna bet on whether the Optometrists will be back anytime soon??
Proof we are not a convention town....unless it's religulous. ::)
One problem seemed to be with the layout of the Hyatt itself. I was told that when they had a break to eat, they gathered at the front entrance to meet and decide where to go. My friend who is a local and relaying this to me was of course wanting everyone to have a good impression of Tulsa and downtown. But he said, there they were on 2nd street at the front entrance and the street was ugly as the dickens, plain, boring and not much to see other than parking garages and large blank walls. Again, not exactly a stunning impression. He told a group of them that he knew where there was a place to eat on Boston Ave. So they walked down 2nd, then around the PAC (around which you get to see a nice sea of very impressive parking lots) then down to Boston Ave to Elote's.
I asked why they didn't just go out the back/side entrance facing the Williams Green to get to Elote's? He said that everyone had already decided to meet at the "logical" place, the front entrance. Plus, if you were not from around here and even if you know about the "back" exit, looking out from there you don't really know whats down what street other than your looking down a lot of steps and out onto a park.
Another day he took them to the Blue Dome District and they ate at Back Alley Blues.
Isnt this "failure" owned more by the Hyatt and their ability to host events then it is as a failure of the City of Tulsa? Did the Hyatt notify the COT that they were hosting an event and check the calendar for other events in their area? Did the Hyatt provide adequate signage and tavel instruction, parking tips etc? Did the Hyatt provide a list of things to do in downtown? Places to eat in downtown or did they expect all of these people to eat in the hotel?
If this event were in the convention center and had these types of troubles then certainly the COT and SMB would be culpable, but I don't think they are for this event.
Don't we have convention liaisons with the city? All the noise we here from the Mayor and Council about bringing 'stuff' to town - yeah, the city has an obligation to at the very least be aware of what's going on!
And every Hyatt I stay at has some kind of "local link" to the place where it is located. Dallas, Anaheim, San Diego, Chicago, Atlanta....and while I am not that big a fan of Hyatt (it is after all, just another hotel), they do seem to be very consumer service oriented. I bet if Tulsa had someone to notify, the Hyatt would have notified and coordinated with.
Contact Us
Planning and Economic Development Department
City of Tulsa
175 East 2nd Street
Tulsa, OK 74103
(918) 576-5568
Quote from: carltonplace on October 19, 2011, 08:29:52 AM
Contact Us
Planning and Economic Development Department
City of Tulsa
175 East 2nd Street
Tulsa, OK 74103
(918) 576-5568
Now, how cool is that... ask and you shall receive...
I presume there is some kind of proactive 'outreach' program to local entities associated with all that?
Looking at the Demographics on your web site, I like the list of rankings. I'm sure you ponder the same question I do - with all that northeast OK has going for it, why do we seem to not grow any better/faster/bigger? And then I look around at what IS going on and it is pretty impressive, too. We are doing ok - but would like to do better. There must be some kind of natural ebb and flow going on that I certainly don't understand.
But how do you explain a marathon passing in front of the convention parking garage, keeping it blocked for long periods of time? This is my pet peeve. That for the sake of avid runners (for good causes no doubt) much of the city's neighborhoods are more than inconvenienced, we're practically locked in as the routes go through major outlets. The city surely knew the convention was coming and the Marathon has been planned awhile too. Doesn't take formal notification to consider that the two could possibly conflict.
Quote from: AquaMan on October 19, 2011, 03:13:03 PM
But how do you explain a marathon passing in front of the convention parking garage, keeping it blocked for long periods of time? This is my pet peeve. That for the sake of avid runners (for good causes no doubt) much of the city's neighborhoods are more than inconvenienced, we're practically locked in as the routes go through major outlets. The city surely knew the convention was coming and the Marathon has been planned awhile too. Doesn't take formal notification to consider that the two could possibly conflict.
Not to minimize the type of convention, but a 300 attendee convention would barely be of notice to the city. I agree with Carlton, if anything, it was up to the Hyatt to know the Rte 66 marathon was going on and plan accordingly. The marathon would have been the bigger of the two events and it's pretty well publicized months in advance.
All convention and sporting event business is good for the city. I hate that the conventioneers were left with a bad taste in their mouth, but you really can't blame the city or the R66 organizers for this one.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 19, 2011, 09:28:43 AM
Now, how cool is that... ask and you shall receive...
I presume there is some kind of proactive 'outreach' program to local entities associated with all that?
Of course not, that is quite a presumption. The mayors office won't even speak to the city council; why would they reach out to local businesses?
Quote from: Conan71 on October 19, 2011, 04:11:10 PM
Not to minimize the type of convention, but a 300 attendee convention would barely be of notice to the city. I agree with Carlton, if anything, it was up to the Hyatt to know the Rte 66 marathon was going on and plan accordingly. The marathon would have been the bigger of the two events and it's pretty well publicized months in advance.
All convention and sporting event business is good for the city. I hate that the conventioneers were left with a bad taste in their mouth, but you really can't blame the city or the R66 organizers for this one.
It sucks that Downtown Tulsa gets the black eye for a SNAFU on the hotel's part.
Quote from: carltonplace on October 19, 2011, 04:13:20 PM
Of course not, that is quite a presumption. The mayors office won't even speak to the city council; why would they reach out to local businesses?
Yeah,... I guess I kind of didn't think that one through. That would make too much sense to actually be implemented. Well, there we go again - being trained in science and technology makes one think in logical, analytical, problem solving patterns of thought. Which is directly opposite the political world.
Quote from: carltonplace on October 19, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
It sucks that Downtown Tulsa gets the black eye for a SNAFU on the hotel's part.
Remember the armored truck waived in front of the leaders by the TPD during the Tulsa Run while being broadcast live on CBS?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 19, 2011, 04:29:57 PM
Well, there we go again - being trained in science and technology makes one think in logical, analytical, problem solving patterns of thought.
Well, normally. What happened to you?
(Sorry, had to do it.) ;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 19, 2011, 05:25:26 PM
Well, normally. What happened to you?
(Sorry, had to do it.) ;D
Ahhhh.... how cute!! He tried to make a funny!!!
Well, yeah - actually probably a good question! I guess it was those Oklahoma schools... most people would have bailed out of here with that kind of training to go somewhere for a real career!! All my contemporaries with similar backgrounds did move and have done much better overall.
But no,...I had to try to stay around and try to help make my home state a better place. Maybe it is all those "immigrants" that have come in over the years... all those Yankees that have tried to turn this southern state into something else over the years....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 19, 2011, 05:40:10 PM
All my contemporaries with similar backgrounds did move and have done much better overall.
But no,...I had to try to stay around and try to help make my home state a better place. Maybe it is all those "immigrants" that have come in over the years... all those Yankees that have tried to turn this southern state into something else over the years....
I originally followed my parents here. When I got out of the Navy, I chose to return here. It's not too bad. I had a few opportunities to go elsewhere. Boston area Rt 128 Electronics boom (I think that's the right route #) before it crashed. San Jose area in the late 80s with only about a $100/mo pay increase. My boss went. He traded a 3500 sq-ft home in BA for an 1100 sq-ft one in Fremont, no real disposable income after necessities and debt out the ****. A few years later he went to North Carolina and would have made some money on the house except that CA taxed the crap out of his gains. Glad I didn't go.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 19, 2011, 06:03:29 PM
I originally followed my parents here. When I got out of the Navy, I chose to return here. It's not too bad. I had a few opportunities to go elsewhere. Boston area Rt 128 Electronics boom (I think that's the right route #) before it crashed. San Jose area in the late 80s with only about a $100/mo pay increase. My boss went. He traded a 3500 sq-ft home in BA for an 1100 sq-ft one in Fremont, no real disposable income after necessities and debt out the ****. A few years later he went to North Carolina and would have made some money on the house except that CA taxed the crap out of his gains. Glad I didn't go.
Not too bad??? It's really a great state in many ways!! (Tsk, tsk,...you should have figured that out by now!!) There is no where better on this planet for spring storms!
Luckily, I am not motivated by big houses and flashy cars and all the hysterical consumerism that plagues so many. (Maybe 'cause I never had any of them???)
I have had chances to go other places, but Toronto and Flagstaff were the only two cities that ever seriously tempted me. Still not sure why I didn't take those opportunities - probably related to having kids living with an artifact from a previous life, who would have been too far away if I had gone. And here is the irony - when they graduated, they had to move out of state just to get decent jobs in their fields!
I disagree that it is the hotel's fault. I've been to many conventions and the signs, ushers, etc are either paid for by the convention or are part of the convention package they arrange for with the hotel. Not to mention that the "front entrance" they were using on 2nd is staffed with Hyatt employees who have downtown maps, brochures, and are specifically trained to direct people to restaurants and such.
I went to a convention with about 3,000 people, they had Howie Mandel and Matchbox Twenty... even they had no signs directing people to food.
In the overall scheme of things, this "screw up" doesn't really sound like it was THAT much of a screw up by anyone. Ok, so people had to walk to the other end of the lobby. Well, that is probably a good thing for most people - I know it wouldn't hurt me to burn those extra calories represented by that "forced march".
Wrong attitude. Its not the visitors fault that the experience was sub par.
Doctors are in contact with a lot of decisionmakers. For some reason, people seem to consider their opinions as more important than others. When their experience is less than average during a convention, dinner, entertainment, whatever...it resonates. You can't just shrug it off as just a small convention of less importance than the marathon run because of size. They have the leverage to impact future convention business with a negative experience. They travel a lot and they share.
People are watching from other areas to see if Tulsa's downtown rebirth is for real. Comments comparing us to OKC's downtown are illustrative of that curiousity. When we make a poor impression they pass on the word that its mostly hype and designed for the locals. If that's our purpose for investing in downtown, then fine. But if we intend to draw visitors, we have to do better than what Artist described as their experience.
CBS national did a story on the Ford Chesapeake Arena in downtown OKC with Cornett saying each suspended NBA game that passes costs the city $1million in economic development with a disputer countering, "if they are not spending it at the arena they're spending it elsewhere in OKC that night." Many cities are smarting from the lack of cooperation between unions and team owners. Memphis is suing the NBA for damages.
Talk about screw ups.
The agreements with professional teams and cities is so onesided. We entice them with public monies because we savor the supposed multiplier effect they bring. More taxes, growing population, influx of new money etc. But we make no allowance for their failure to do so. If we were to base these deals on results, both positive and negative, it would work better. Might even make them think twice about lock outs since they would cost them more than just loss of game revenues.
A player gets a contract, but it is indexed to his performance. He plays well he gets more money. He screws up he gets traded or cut. Surely owners would understand the concept being applied to their performance. :)
Has no one heard of a concierge?
This was a very small convention that should have easily been able to be served by the hotels concierge staff for any and all local information. I know that Hyatt Hotels will answer your picking up your room phone generally immediately, will great you with your name and will give you what ever information you need right then. There's also a concierge desk right by the entrances.
The "back" door of this hotel down to the green is more prominent and more easily reached than the front door. The coffee shop is right next to the doors to The Green, they went to the coffee shop to see if wasn't open yet but didn't see the doors right there?
Walking out the main doors and going left around the PAC, did they not notice the huge staircase up to the green they walked past right the east of the hotel? Seems like these people wanted to complain or weren't very bright.
Again, why blame the visitors? Most customers are pretty stupid regardless of their education or attainment. That is why you play to the lowest mentality in communicating with them. I don't travel much anymore but when I did, I always appreciated the obvious being pointed out to me, with good cheer, by the staff and locals. That is their job really, to be actors who herd the sheep by repeating the obvious, over and over, with the same smile and nod each time.
The "city" doesn't handle conventions. They "outsource" it to the Convention & Visitors Bureau aka Visit Tulsa which is a "division" of the Tulsa Metro Chamber. I've seen the reports the CVB generates for convention contacts and I'm shocked they wouldn't have been aware of this and assisted the Hyatt, if requested to do so. They have worked with groups as small as 20-30 people to find accommodations for events and hotel rooms. So, the mayor can't take blame (or at least directly) for any snafu's on this particular event. I would look to the hotel meeting planner first, then CVB (assuming they were made aware of it). In my opinion, the Hyatt is the worst hotel in downtown. The food they serve for events is terrible, at best, and the set up of the hotel is poor.
I'm also surprised Topeca wasn't open in the Hyatt until 9a. The Mayo location opens at 6:30am on weekdays and 8am on weekends. I've assumed the Hyatt hours are same or at least very similar.
Also, are there not way finder signs on 2nd street?
These signs, http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=11067.0
Quote from: rdj on October 20, 2011, 10:08:54 AM
Also, are there not way finder signs on 2nd street?
These signs, http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=11067.0
Are those signs easy to understand for a visitor? "Tul Comm Coll" or whatever it said was a little sad.
Honestly, sometimes I think our heart is just not in it. Recently I have had an opportunity to travel around the city as a passenger and take a good look at us as a visitor would, rather than driving and watching traffic. Its pretty bleak around here. I tried to imagine where I would consider buying a home, shopping, eating and just relaxing. Again, pretty bleak. I'm talking the city here, not the burbs. Can't comment on them. The standout has been downtown. It is full of life and activity especially after dark.
The river is dry and has been all summer. The roads are still pretty rough and broken. We are awash with fat people, beggars and fast food. The housing, other than a couple of hoods, is unkempt and unappealing. The traffic is c-r-a-z-y.....honking at school buses, EMT's, and running red lights....tailgating, texting, swerving and generally acting arrogant and stupid. Even runners on the path seem rude and inconsiderate. One out of 10 run on the wrong side of the path insisting that everyone else is wrong and must move out of their way! People are difficult to converse with since their skills have been dulled by digital devices. Unless you talk about your church which pretty well limits the conversation. And people are very intolerant here. Intolerant and generally lacking in common courtesy. What is that all about? Tulsan's have always been friendly to strangers, easy to approach and generous.
Yeah, I know, the economy, stupid. But we've weathered stuff before and not looked this bad. 1983 was a miserable year around here but we faced it with humor and generosity. I mused to a woman the other day while standing in line for an open insurance sign up..."Am I just getting older or does it seem that things are getting harder to do around here anymore?"
If this is what Tulsa looks like to visitors we're screwed. Does anyone else feel Tulsa is looking and feeling kind of unappealing lately? Do I need to load up on Zanax or move farther north?
Quote from: AquaMan on October 20, 2011, 11:14:46 AM
Honestly, sometimes I think our heart is just not in it. Recently I have had an opportunity to travel around the city as a passenger and take a good look at us as a visitor would, rather than driving and watching traffic. Its pretty bleak around here. I tried to imagine where I would consider buying a home, shopping, eating and just relaxing. Again, pretty bleak. I'm talking the city here, not the burbs. Can't comment on them. The standout has been downtown. It is full of life and activity especially after dark.
The river is dry and has been all summer. The roads are still pretty rough and broken. We are awash with fat people, beggars and fast food. The housing, other than a couple of hoods, is unkempt and unappealing. The traffic is c-r-a-z-y.....honking at school buses, EMT's, and running red lights....tailgating, texting, swerving and generally acting arrogant and stupid. Even runners on the path seem rude and inconsiderate. One out of 10 run on the wrong side of the path insisting that everyone else is wrong and must move out of their way! People are difficult to converse with since their skills have been dulled by digital devices. Unless you talk about your church which pretty well limits the conversation. And people are very intolerant here. Intolerant and generally lacking in common courtesy. What is that all about? Tulsan's have always been friendly to strangers, easy to approach and generous.
Yeah, I know, the economy, stupid. But we've weathered stuff before and not looked this bad. 1983 was a miserable year around here but we faced it with humor and generosity. I mused to a woman the other day while standing in line for an open insurance sign up..."Am I just getting older or does it seem that things are getting harder to do around here anymore?"
If this is what Tulsa looks like to visitors we're screwed. Does anyone else feel Tulsa is looking and feeling kind of unappealing lately? Do I need to load up on Zanax or move farther north?
Man, someone needs a Marshall's STAT. I meet wonderful people in this town everyday...they way over shadow the one or two idiots I run into.
Well, so do I. Not enough of them, but some. My point is that, stepping back and suspending the reality that I live here and know those people, what does the city look and feel like to visitors? That became a sobering view. Outside of my little world, the city is more unappealing and unfriendly than I thought.
Its like we have a toddler's stranger complex. Do you get to travel around the city much as an observer?
Quote from: AquaMan on October 20, 2011, 01:02:34 PM
Well, so do I. Not enough of them, but some. My point is that, stepping back and suspending the reality that I live here and know those people, what does the city look and feel like to visitors? That became a sobering view. Outside of my little world, the city is more unappealing and unfriendly than I thought.
Its like we have a toddler's stranger complex. Do you get to travel around the city much as an observer?
Somewhere else I mentioned a trip to the west a while back and when we got back, it was like we were walking into the video game version of what you just described. Now that I have re-assimilated, I don't notice quite as much, but you hit a lot the the high points that were contrasted so starkly during our trip. Outside of Denver proper - didn't spend enough time there to say - everywhere in CO, WY, MT, UT were like the opposite of here.
And it ain't just Tulsa - OKC is much the same if not worse. (Traffic wise, in particular around the road construction at the end of the turnpike and on I-40 near downtown.)
One huge contrast you did not mention was the trash thrown out on the streets. The previously mentioned states were all VERY clean compared to just about ANYWHERE in Oklahoma! It is disgraceful how disgusting the streets and parking lots are in this state. As example; I did not find ANY used diapers laying on the ground in over 3,000 miles of highway, city street, and parking lot travel. And I was looking after I noticed the lack of trash just to see if could find one. None.
Quote from: AquaMan on October 20, 2011, 01:02:34 PM
Well, so do I. Not enough of them, but some. My point is that, stepping back and suspending the reality that I live here and know those people, what does the city look and feel like to visitors? That became a sobering view. Outside of my little world, the city is more unappealing and unfriendly than I thought.
Its like we have a toddler's stranger complex. Do you get to travel around the city much as an observer?
One of my favorite things to do is to explore different parts of the city. Yes, its diverse: lots of ugly, lots of pretty, lots of getting better, but most of it has been the same for a long time. Drive down Dawson Rd, its been exactly the same as long as I can remember. West 23rd St to Avery Dr, North Lewis, East Tulsa, East 21st, Mingo Road, ALL of Memorial from the Airport to 51st St, urban planning disasters everywhere, build whatever you want, we don't care.
But what
is getting better is the core and the surrounding neighborhoods. Take a look at Kendall Whittier...its
much improved lately, 13th and Peoria, 6th and Peoria, the Blue Dome, Brady Heights, Owen Park, the Brady District, the jogging trail. All of these little buds of change will grow and spread out from the core. Tulsa is loaded with potential and I'm excited to live here right now.
Just to pile on here. Was with a "suburbanite" heading into downtown on the BA a while back and they commented on how ugly the stretch of highway was in the mid-town area where the tracks run down the middle of the highway. I had never given it a second thought or look. But they pointed out how there were all these mismatched fences on top of the retaining wall with haphazard, scraggly vegetation spilling over, growing up in cracks between the walls, etc. I know because I am familiar with Tulsa that just behind that stuff are some of the cutest old homes and nicer parts of town, but a visitor, even if its one of the "local suburbanites or South Tulsans" who (and I have been amazed to find out) often have no clue about those beautiful old, historic neighborhoods. Heck the other day I mentioned Philbrook to a client who had lived here for several years now and got a blank stare. But anyway, when your used to an area, you may not give it a second glance and you don't see it as a visitor will see it. That stretch of highway was an example.
We used to really pride ourselves on having a beautiful city and I think we are trying again, but had fallen behind over the years, and often don't see things like someone new will. We have improved some areas greatly, like the River Parks, used to look like a unkempt ditch with a ratty trail running through it. Looks SO much better now. Thank you Mr Kaiser. The new I44 widening project is helping that old highway look much better and the new walls look nice, plus the large pylons they will be adding by the bridge will help things.
Contrast our bridges and roads within the central part of the city to Dallas or KC, there is almost always some sort of artwork factor on the bridge, the railing, lighting, etc. Our "normal" looks like those places, "bad areas".
The entrances into downtown need work as well. The most convenient exit for me is usually the TCC exit. If I have a visitor or someone in the car that I am going to show downtown, I always try to talk very intently for those first two blocks right off the highway so as to distract them from how bad that area looks lol. There is a nice little deco welcome sign there at the first stop, but it could use some flowers or something around it for instance lol. Another thing I recently discovered was the impression people from up north like from Owasso get as they go into downtown. We exited off that street that goes into the Blue Dome district and the person said, "now see, this is why some people from Owasso have a bad impression of downtown, this is the first thing they see when they get off the highway.
Part of that again is "suburbanite" expectations versus how a city dweller would see things. Should we even care what they think? Another is, we can't do much about abandoned buildings and weedy, cracking, parking lots. Some people are so sheltered in their, everything is shiney and new, suburban, mindsets that they will have a hard time finding any "alien" urban environment attractive. But, if we continue to improve a few first impression things here and there, and the core of downtown continues to progress, I think we will be well on our way to having a downtown that will be welcoming and attractive to all kinds of people. And thats happening very quickly now imo.
But, the danger lies in being complacent, while other cities continue to improve. What was once, fine and dandy, good enough, will in time be "at a competitive disadvantage".
Trash is an issue here. People just empty their cars on to curbs when they finish their late night drinking and fast food binges. Diapers left on busses. Dog poop left steaming on school yards and easements. Lately I've been seeing bags of trash and furnishings dumped along the running path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge (alongside the yard debris that residents dump there). That's new.
Carleton, I've noticed those areas you pointed out and I remember some of them as being poor, but tidy. Some sense of self respect. Perhaps they work longer hours now. Anyway, the decline in those areas seems new to me. Specifically, east of yale from Pine South to 51st and in the commercial corridors. All no doubt under stress from the economy, crime and drugs. Still...
I did note that the only bright spot is downtown and the near downtown areas. They are demonstrably improving and have momentum. We need to spread that movement cause we can't afford a vacuum in between these areas and the burbs. My real concern is that the personality of the city has changed. People are losing that Southern gentile quality and becoming more hostile and unfriendly. Animosity towards TPS is widespread and cancerous. It just reflects badly on the city.
Might just be me. Artist's post and its responses seemed to strike a chord though. H is seeing the same thing I think. My brother is a lineman for AT&T and has pretty much the same view of how our city has changed. We used to be a small town that wanted to be big, now we're big. Keep up the good attitude and I'l go pop a Stella.
Quote from: AquaMan on October 20, 2011, 02:18:14 PM
Keep up the good attitude and I'l go pop a Stella.
Out of Marshall's?
Quote from: AquaMan on October 20, 2011, 02:18:14 PM
Trash is an issue here. People just empty their cars on to curbs when they finish their late night drinking and fast food binges.
I've been behind cars at stop lights when they open their door and empty the ashtray. Disgusting!
Quote from: rdj on October 20, 2011, 10:07:16 AM
I'm also surprised Topeca wasn't open in the Hyatt until 9a. The Mayo location opens at 6:30am on weekdays and 8am on weekends. I've assumed the Hyatt hours are same or at least very similar.
The Mayo location has posted hours that they mostly stick to. That Hyatt location doesn't appear to have any posted hours that I can see from the outside. You would think that posting hours on the door would be right up there with putting a sign advertising your business up. But lots of places in town don't bother, or they post hours but open and close whenever they feel like it.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 20, 2011, 02:43:21 PM
I've been behind cars at stop lights when they open their door and empty the ashtray. Disgusting!
Yep, even when I smoked I didn't do that...now that I've quit, gives me even more disdain for those that do.
Quote from: Hoss on October 20, 2011, 02:47:23 PM
Yep, even when I smoked I didn't do that...now that I've quit, gives me even more disdain for those that do.
Between cleanings, the interior of my car is proof that I don't litter.
Ahh...sweet irony. I just popped the top on a Stella (wife and I like them Belgian brews) and went to the front porch for attitude re-adjustment. We all love our porches around here and use them.
I looked around to see how the plants were doing and guess what? Someone stole two metal and glass etageres the plants sat on right off the porch last nite! Left the plants.
Quote from: AquaMan on October 20, 2011, 03:03:42 PM
Ahh...sweet irony. I just popped the top on a Stella (wife and I like them Belgian brews) and went to the front porch for attitude re-adjustment. We all love our porches around here and use them.
I looked around to see how the plants were doing and guess what? Someone stole two metal and glass etageres the plants sat on right off the porch last nite! Left the plants.
QuoteAn étagère is a piece of light furniture very similar to the English what-not, which was extensively made in France during the latter part of the 18th century. It consists of a series of stages or shelves for the reception of ornaments or other small articles. Like the what-not it was very often cornerwise in shape, and the best Louis XVI examples in exotic woods are exceedingly graceful and elegant.
Sorry Aqua, that sucks.
I won't miss them. They were on the porch because I needed a place to put plants. They were headed to Goodwill as soon as hard winter arrived. It could be the punk and his sister whose butt I kicked off the porch last year around this time. Or it could be someone who saw them for sale on Craigslist. Whatever.
Motion lights and front porch light didn't stop them. Funny, since it was cold last nite I felt compassion and let my Catahoula inside for the night. She'll wake from a deep sleep and bellow like a dog twice her size whenever anyone approaches. So, I will set a trap for them and just wait.
Quote from: AquaMan on October 20, 2011, 03:03:42 PM
Ahh...sweet irony. I just popped the top on a Stella (wife and I like them Belgian brews) and went to the front porch for attitude re-adjustment. We all love our porches around here and use them.
I looked around to see how the plants were doing and guess what? Someone stole two metal and glass etageres the plants sat on right off the porch last nite! Left the plants.
Sorry to hear about the theft.
Belgian Tripels and Goldens are among my favorites.
Quote from: carltonplace on October 20, 2011, 12:52:50 PM
Man, someone needs a Marshall's STAT. I meet wonderful people in this town everyday...they way over shadow the one or two idiots I run into.
+1
Quote from: AquaMan on October 20, 2011, 09:11:58 AM
Wrong attitude. Its not the visitors fault that the experience was sub par.
It is partially their fault because they didn't take advantage of what was there and obvious like the concierge and hotel staff.
It was more the organizer's fault for not preparing an event to cater to the needs of the attendees.
THIS IS NOT the responsibility of the Hyatt, Dewey Bartlett, the Chamber, etc. It's 300 people who rented a ballroom. This is not a major event and I really don't want my tax dollars paying to have people standing around pointing directions or printing custom signs pointing a few doctors to a hamburger. The CVB would've helped, if they were asked, which they probably weren't. Even if they had some vague idea it was happening, how would they be aware the event wasn't catered like many major conventions?
Quote from: TheArtist on October 20, 2011, 02:14:13 PM
Just to pile on here. Was with a "suburbanite" heading into downtown on the BA a while back and they commented on how ugly the stretch of highway was in the mid-town area where the tracks run down the middle of the highway. I had never given it a second thought or look. But they pointed out how there were all these mismatched fences on top of the retaining wall with haphazard, scraggly vegetation spilling over, growing up in cracks between the walls, etc. I know because I am familiar with Tulsa that just behind that stuff are some of the cutest old homes and nicer parts of town, but a visitor, even if its one of the "local suburbanites or South Tulsans" who (and I have been amazed to find out) often have no clue about those beautiful old, historic neighborhoods.
Now THAT is an area that I would be strongly in favor of spending some of my tax dollars to do some work - install a consistent set of fence or wall or something along that stretch of road. Can't be any more than those massive concrete walls springing up all over the place. Would be major public works improvement at modest cost.
I'd like to chime in here as a hotelier and someone who has an -- ahem -- intimate knowledge of the Hyatt, convention planning, and the weirdo delineation of responsibilities during a given event.
A couple factual clarifications first: the Rt66 1/4 marathon course was planned independently months prior to the event. No notice was given to the Hyatt about either the event itself or its course, and when it did become apparent that this was a conflict, the staff at the Hyatt worked for a month prior to get the marathon course changed. Unfortunately, it was to no avail, and though both the hotel and the client know this would happen, there wasn't a whole lot that could be done.
Topeca opens at 6:30am on the weekdays and at 8am on the weekends and will open earlier if business warrants. They receive information about each group that comes to the Hyatt so that they can staff accordingly. However, they are owned and managed separately from the hotel, and so are free to open whenever they want. This also holds true for the spa, the gift shop, and the Daily Grill.
The parking garage downtown has always been a tricky situation, because it's owned by the city, managed privately, and serves daylong commuters as well as hotel guests. There's really no sense of arrival or of guidance about how to find the correct entrance. That's partly the hotel's fault, but also the fault of city signage and of simple placement of exits and entrances. In a lot of ways it's just a poorly planned garage with no good solution. Trust me, it's ridiculously unique, and decades of experience with it hasn't made dealing with it any easier for the hotel staff
That said, paying for parking downtown is NOT an inconvenience in any other downtown in America. Compared to standard costs in OKC of near $20 daily (for instance), the $8 charge in the central garage is a bargain. It may also have seemed expensive when being downtown wasn't desirable, but now it's a bargain to pay for access to the Brady, the Blue Dome, the BOK, the PAC, etc. This is another one of those urban costs that Tulsans simply refuse to pay, even though they will when they are in another city.
Regarding wayfinding and general guidance: All of the frontline staff, from the bellmen to the front desk agents to the manager who's shift it is to greet in the lower lobby has access to and knowledge of the nearby area. In fact, this is the major selling point of the Hyatt, and what sets it apart from everybody else in the market. It has plenty of walkable conveniences. There will always be more that hotel staff can do, but as sgrizz says, it's still fundamentally the responsibility of the attendees and the meeting planners to ask for help.
He's also correct that during the planning phase of an event, it's the meeting planner's responsibility to make time to explore the local area and to provide information about how to get around. The hotel might have resources to provide the planner to help them do this more efficiently (and the Hyatt definitely does), but it's still the meeting planner's program, and time away from the hotel is still considered part of the program. The Tulsa CVB (aka VisitTulsa) also has some good literature available gratis to planners, and they just have to express some interest or reach out to the CVB to make sure it's known that that's what they want. For larger events (like the NCAA, for instance), the CVB and Sports Commission (same folks, really) had a regiment of volunteers ready to help guide people around. It's quite possible that training and retaining a volunteer concierge group would be a great additional CVB service, but I can tell you right now they are so understaffed and underfunded it's criminal, and are right now trying to sort out fundamentals like funding and structure. The bigger stuff will unfortunately have to come later.
Another final thing about downtown as a tourist destination: it's still small and has a limited range of options. The food is low end to mid-range; the bars are casual and serve a pretty specific clientele. And it's still very specifically pitched to locals. There aren't recognizable names, there aren't recognizable icons . . . and none of the Blue Dome stuff is built to try and snag upscale tourist/corporate dollars. It's a huge gap, honestly. That's not to criticize or to take away from the progress that's been made, but it is to point out one of our continuing blind spots, which is how to capture tourist dollars. It's not just the city that doesn't understand it; it's the local entrepreneurs that don't, either.
Quote from: sgrizzle on October 20, 2011, 04:18:27 PM
It is partially their fault because they didn't take advantage of what was there and obvious like the concierge and hotel staff.
It was more the organizer's fault for not preparing an event to cater to the needs of the attendees.
THIS IS NOT the responsibility of the Hyatt, Dewey Bartlett, the Chamber, etc. It's 300 people who rented a ballroom. This is not a major event and I really don't want my tax dollars paying to have people standing around pointing directions or printing custom signs pointing a few doctors to a hamburger. The CVB would've helped, if they were asked, which they probably weren't. Even if they had some vague idea it was happening, how would they be aware the event wasn't catered like many major conventions?
I think one point is, that when they went to a similar convention in say KC, everything was made obvious and convenient as to where to go and what to do.... not just for this one apparently insignificant, not worth the trouble, small group, but for every visitor and for every convention big and small, every meeting, concert, businessman, etc. There was no need to ask for help or people standing around pointing directions. The hotels, the city, and the dining/shopping/entertainment venues have worked together to make the visitors experience fun, easy, simple, and convenient. You can say its the groups fault, but the simple fact is, if they do the same thing at place A, then place B and have a better experience at place A.... their memebers are going to want to go to place A again the next time.
Quote from: we vs us on October 20, 2011, 05:48:10 PM
That said, paying for parking downtown is NOT an inconvenience in any other downtown in America. Compared to standard costs in OKC of near $20 daily (for instance), the $8 charge in the central garage is a bargain. It may also have seemed expensive when being downtown wasn't desirable, but now it's a bargain to pay for access to the Brady, the Blue Dome, the BOK, the PAC, etc. This is another one of those urban costs that Tulsans simply refuse to pay, even though they will when they are in another city.
I don't think they minded paying that much as the hassle paying brought up by the machines not working well, though when it could have been just as easy to go to the Rennaissance, conveniently park there for free... Its not just other cities that compete, its other areas of town. No big deal in the big sense in this case for Tulsa for we get em one way or the other, but bit of a loss for downtown. Plus many of these people have other events, some larger, that they have each year as well.
Quote from: we vs us on October 20, 2011, 05:48:10 PM
Another final thing about downtown as a tourist destination: it's still small and has a limited range of options. The food is low end to mid-range; the bars are casual and serve a pretty specific clientele. And it's still very specifically pitched to locals. There aren't recognizable names, there aren't recognizable icons . . . and none of the Blue Dome stuff is built to try and snag upscale tourist/corporate dollars. It's a huge gap, honestly. That's not to criticize or to take away from the progress that's been made, but it is to point out one of our continuing blind spots, which is how to capture tourist dollars. It's not just the city that doesn't understand it; it's the local entrepreneurs that don't, either.
Very good point. We don't have a "Power and Light Disrict" or even a Bricktown, or for that matter a Dixon Street type area in downtown just yet. Blue dome is ok for us locals, but as long as its as small as it is and has so many empty buildings and that huge gaping hole of parking there, its not going to seem as nice. Its not "touristy" comfortable, and some out of towners say its scary looking. As for the place in the Hyatt not being open, I know its not the Hyatts fault, but heard it was frustrating that there wasnt a place to get breakfast or a quick coffee in the Hotel?
Quote from: we vs us on October 20, 2011, 05:48:10 PM
Another final thing about downtown as a tourist destination: it's still small and has a limited range of options. The food is low end to mid-range; the bars are casual and serve a pretty specific clientele. And it's still very specifically pitched to locals. There aren't recognizable names, there aren't recognizable icons . . . and none of the Blue Dome stuff is built to try and snag upscale tourist/corporate dollars. It's a huge gap, honestly. That's not to criticize or to take away from the progress that's been made, but it is to point out one of our continuing blind spots, which is how to capture tourist dollars. It's not just the city that doesn't understand it; it's the local entrepreneurs that don't, either.
As much as I try to avoid chains, do you think something nationally recognizable like a Ruth's Chris, Dave and Buster's (and others I can't think of at the moment) downtown would help with that image? I do love our local options and that downtown is almost exclusively local, but I can understand how that's confusing to people who want a familiar meal when they are on the road.
FMC and I never eat anywhere but local when we are on the road, I also understand not everyone thinks like we do. We just ask where all the locals eat. We like one-off, funky, and getting a dose of the local culture.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 20, 2011, 04:59:52 PM
Now THAT is an area that I would be strongly in favor of spending some of my tax dollars to do some work - install a consistent set of fence or wall or something along that stretch of road. Can't be any more than those massive concrete walls springing up all over the place. Would be major public works improvement at modest cost.
What? And block out their beloved highway noise? I'd never thought of that before but it would be a nice eye-sore remover as well as helping property values on each side of the BA with the noise attenuation.
Quote from: Conan71 on October 20, 2011, 08:54:10 PM
As much as I try to avoid chains, do you think something nationally recognizable like a Ruth's Chris, Dave and Buster's (and others I can't think of at the moment) downtown would help with that image? I do love our local options and that downtown is almost exclusively local, but I can understand how that's confusing to people who want a familiar meal when they are on the road.
I definitely think a national upscale chain would do something for downtown. I admit that a lot of that comes from my focus at work, which is working with business travelers who want a nice meal or a couple of cocktails at a nice place -- and oftentimes don't want to spend their dwindling energy on making a decision about where to go. There's absolutely a lot to be said for having a boatload of local options but I also think that a good chain will lead credence to the area with folks who aren't in the know...either travelers or the suburbanites who will trust that kind of thing.
Quote from: we vs us on October 20, 2011, 05:48:10 PM
That said, paying for parking downtown is NOT an inconvenience in any other downtown in America. Compared to standard costs in OKC of near $20 daily (for instance), the $8 charge in the central garage is a bargain. It may also have seemed expensive when being downtown wasn't desirable, but now it's a bargain to pay for access to the Brady, the Blue Dome, the BOK, the PAC, etc. This is another one of those urban costs that Tulsans simply refuse to pay, even though they will when they are in another city.
Squeaky wallet speaking here. Bargain is in the eye of the beholder. $20/day for 365 days/yr is $7300. $8/day for 365 days/yr is $2920. I don't consider either a bargain. But then, I am not one to say I need an urban experience or I won't go.
Several years ago, I went to a continuing education course in Mission Valley, CA near San Diego. One evening I wanted to stop by Old Town San Diego then go on to the Gas Light District for dinner. The trolley went right past the motel but I couldn't determine which one to take and whether I would have to make a transfer somewhere. I decided to drive. The close in parking at Old Town was full up. I found a spot about 1/2 mile away and that was OK. There was a big parking garage in the Gaslight district that I deemed too expensive. I don't remember the actual $. I drove around for about 1/2 hr, being willing to walk about a half mile or so, before finding a place to park. It was a white zone (loading and unloading) next to but not directly in front of a garage type door to a place that was very not open. The parking enforcer just happened to be there and was kind enough to tell me I couldn't park there and didn't ticket me. She also told me the color code on the curbs. +1 for San Diego parking enforcement. I drove around a bit more but was about 2 minutes from saying ***** it and going back to suburbia for dinner. I finally found a spot but wasn't really sure the car would be there when I returned. It was. I would have liked to figure out how to use the trolley. I don't remember the name of the motel but I do remember I had to pay for parking. The was no place available to park for free. Parking at Mission Beach was free. I went back a second night for dinner.
My brother and some friends have attended events at the PAC and said that the cost of parking is just part of the cost of the evening. My squeaky wallet has said, yep it's part of the cost and it just ran the cost past my threshold of enjoyment. I don't go. I know now that street parking in Tulsa after hours is free if you are willing to walk a bit, which I am.
On the flip side....
I went to visit some friends in Germany, near Frankfurt, in 1995. I took a side trip for a week. Everything was expensive. I balked at several attractions but then I said - I'm probably only ever going to be here once, just do it. Is that what we want in Tulsa, one time visitors?
So... Everyone has a threshold of what they are willing to pay for an event. To say that paying for parking is
QuoteNOT an inconvenience in any other downtown in America
is probably stretching things a bit.
Quote from: TheArtist on October 20, 2011, 06:28:51 PM
I don't think they minded paying that much as the hassle paying brought up by the machines not working well, though when it could have been just as easy to go to the Rennaissance, conveniently park there for free... Its not just other cities that compete, its other areas of town. No big deal in the big sense in this case for Tulsa for we get em one way or the other, but bit of a loss for downtown. Plus many of these people have other events, some larger, that they have each year as well.
Agreed and agreed, re: parking. But this is important for us as downtown boosters:
free parking is undesirable. Why? Long term it leads to crap like 71st St, but in the short term, it encourages a group to atomize . . . to split up and drive around looking for drinks and a party, when being centrally located around a walkable entertainment district is conducive to keeping the group party going. The Renaissance may look convenient, but it's actually far more isolated than you can imagine. Trust me: even walking the several hundred yards to Target is like wandering through the open tundra of the Far North.
And meeting planners are very open to this idea. This is why Optometric will be back in downtown Tulsa next year for the same event and at the same facility. It may not be something that we -- Tulsans, downtowners, boosters, or hoteliers -- get right every time, but it's very true that we're all trying to get used to having and using and selling our new toy, and it's true that we will most definitely get better at it.
Quote from: we vs us on October 20, 2011, 05:48:10 PM
That said, paying for parking downtown is NOT an inconvenience in any other downtown in America. Compared to standard costs in OKC of near $20 daily (for instance), the $8 charge in the central garage is a bargain. It may also have seemed expensive when being downtown wasn't desirable, but now it's a bargain to pay for access to the Brady, the Blue Dome, the BOK, the PAC, etc. This is another one of those urban costs that Tulsans simply refuse to pay, even though they will when they are in another city.
The Courtyard by Marriott downtown OKC charges $4 a day - on the southwest corner across the street from the train station - at the west end of Bricktown. And every time I have gone to Ft Worth on train, I have parked there. And at the end of the trip, when I go in to pay, they say that's ok... forget it.
Even though I am a Gold Passport member, and have gotten several free nights in the last year and a half, I still get irritated at a parking fee at Hyatt. Plus, a couple of them have wanted to charge me for internet - at least that seems to be going away. I just pass and go park at McDonald's for a while. Guess who gets the "goodwill" vote?
Quote from: we vs us on October 20, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
Agreed and agreed, re: parking. But this is important for us as downtown boosters: free parking is undesirable. Why? Long term it leads to crap like 71st St, but in the short term, it encourages a group to atomize . . . to split up and drive around looking for drinks and a party, when being centrally located around a walkable entertainment district is conducive to keeping the group party going.
It sounds like you are depending on pay for parking to be an inconvenience enough to cause people to stay in your immediate walkable area rather than explore with their cars. I think it's a legitimate point but it kind of contradicts your earlier statement.
As much as I loath to say it, perhaps a few chains downtown wouldn't hurt for the tourist/visitor types. The locals are still going to go to the local places, and you may get more spill-over from the visitors if they hear that there is a " Insert Chain here" just around the corner, and then they see the local place next door and decide to give it a try. If you tell them there is a Joe Mommas, or Elote's a few blocks over, they don't know if its a fun and funky place, a run down greasy spoon, or what the food is like or how much it costs. If you feel like exploring, great, but if your limited on time and perhaps tired, you may opt for the safe, known option and head out to the nearest chain.
Parking, I despise parking downtown as well. Other than the runners/machines not working right, snafu's, and thats not going to happen all the time, I think we have plenty of affordable parking downtown. It will just take a bit more time for our downtown to get that connectability and pedestrian friendly nature going. Plus having one or two, or even three "areas" where you can go and have multiple selections in a "complete/filled in" environment will be really nice. It will be fantastic if people can have an enjoyable walk "not through desolate areas" to a filled out, attractive district, that has multiple options. We are getting so close to having that in the Brady Arts, Blue Dome, and Deco Districts.
Quote from: TheArtist on October 21, 2011, 07:55:01 AM
Parking, I despise parking downtown as well.
I could go for free parking at the edge of downtown and a trolley circulator with multiple ride fares.
When I was in Memphis, TN a few years ago for a convention, the trolley was available to go from the convention center motel (forget name) to Beale St and beyond. A 2 ride pass was available in the motel snack bar for a discount. It got you to dinner and walking about and return. I had to talk my friend with the car into taking the trolley rather than taking his car and trying to find a place to park. The trolley was really easy and the tracks made it intuitively obvious to the most casual observer where it went. I probably would have walked rather than take a bus. I'll try to check the distance on Google maps.
Edit: About .9 mi walk per Google Maps. Oddly, the public transit option shows as a bus on the exact same route the trolley goes. They need to update that.
A group of "chains" would actually be beneficial for downtown. It would bring a new set of wallets to the area. People go where they are comfortable. Some of us are comfortable venturing into a completely unknown restaurant or bar because we got a vibe to go there. Many others feel comfortable going in Chili's in every town they visit because they find comfort in knowing they'll be served just like they're are accustomed to.
My hope is the ballpark trust can get going on the land they control and the public/private dollars they have left to build a district akin to the Power & Light District. It will be a big sell to the out-of-towners (whether they be suburbanites, rural in for the night or conventions)
Currently we have a Daily Grill and Spaghetti Warehouse downtown, both of which are chains (not counting Subway. Arby's, etc.). While I prefer the independent/locally owned establishments, we can definitely use more chains and it would help satisfy visitors who prefer chains or who don't want to seek out something more interesting.
As for the event problem that started this thread, I've shared the misery a number of times of waiting for up to an hour to get to my office on a Saturday morning while watching a few straggling runners use the roads. It's safe to say my blood pressue rose in tandum with the minutes that go by that the police will not let me through an intersection even though a runner cannot be seen for blocks. I'm not opposed to running events, but downtown is not a jogging trail and run coordinators would do well to remember downtown is not the desolate place on the weekend it used to be. It sounds to me like many of the participants in this conference had this experience and it set a pretty bad tone for the rest of their experience in Tulsa.
Quote from: rdj on October 25, 2011, 02:50:25 PM
A group of "chains" would actually be beneficial for downtown. It would bring a new set of wallets to the area. People go where they are comfortable. Some of us are comfortable venturing into a completely unknown restaurant or bar because we got a vibe to go there. Many others feel comfortable going in Chili's in every town they visit because they find comfort in knowing they'll be served just like they're are accustomed to.
My hope is the ballpark trust can get going on the land they control and the public/private dollars they have left to build a district akin to the Power & Light District. It will be a big sell to the out-of-towners (whether they be suburbanites, rural in for the night or conventions)
And a smartly placed chain restaurant can start a "restaraunt/shopping district". I'm with the majority that post here in that I don't eat at chains, but most other people do go to them. Put the right chain restaurant (with an urban footprint) in an area that needs development and it could be the catalyst for much more growth with both local and national establishments.
The most logical location for a few chain restaurants would be in the street level space in the new construction across from the BOK Arena. It's the one location that currently attracts the most out-of-town visitors and is centrally located to most of the current downtown hotels. Also, given it is new construction, it will most likely have higher rents that can be more easily absorbed by a national chain.
A great place for a great upscale eatery is the brick building with green roof tiles across the street from McNellie's. Don't know the name of it but it's just begging to be a nice sit down restaurant, maybe even with private event space in back. Another is the red warehouse juts catty corner at the same intersection (Elgin and 1st), which could be a most excellent multi-level dining space. Or a monster sports bar.
I think Juniper will function as a bit of a test case for more upscale fare in downtown. If it sees even medium success/buzz, I bet you'll see at a couple of copycats within a year.
The former Sack's Engineering building? That is a great building and I believe a former train depot. It will make a great adaptive reuse project.
Quote from: DTowner on October 26, 2011, 09:16:59 AM
The most logical location for a few chain restaurants would be in the street level space in the new construction across from the BOK Arena. It's the one location that currently attracts the most out-of-town visitors and is centrally located to most of the current downtown hotels. Also, given it is new construction, it will most likely have higher rents that can be more easily absorbed by a national chain.
I would like to see ground up in an empty parking lot on Main St at 6th or 7th. This would help drive some new development in the CBD and maybe some reuse of empty spaces near Bartlett Square.
Quote from: carltonplace on October 26, 2011, 11:50:12 AM
I would like to see ground up in an empty parking lot on Main St at 6th or 7th. This would help drive some new development in the CBD and maybe some reuse of empty spaces near Bartlett Square.
I just don't see a chain going in as the first place on a few one-way blocks to no where with no other development around it (why is that section of Main from 6th to 10th still one-way?). I think Boulder Grill has struggled in part because it is the southern most restaurant in the area and has a smaller office crowd base from which to draw for lunch and very little evening activity crowd from which to draw for dinner. But if some chain would be willing to invest a substantial amount in that area, I would be thrilled.
Quote from: DTowner on October 26, 2011, 12:11:19 PMwhy is that section of Main from 6th to 10th still one-way?
That stretch is absolutely awful. I have no problem with one way streets. But streets like that, two-way, then one-way, then two-way again, are just ridiculous. When driving around that area, I have to stop and think to myself for a second about whether the portion I'm heading to is one or two-way.
Was there ever a reason for the one way portion? I can't even figure why all that capacity would be needed. And the capacity does no good because Main doesn't really go anywhere directly.
I keep wondering why Main street was opened back up again as a street? Cannot see that the re-opening helped anything. And took away a lot of space for those running type events that would not make traffic interference problems.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 26, 2011, 12:43:52 PM
I keep wondering why Main street was opened back up again as a street? Cannot see that the re-opening helped anything. And took away a lot of space for those running type events that would not make traffic interference problems.
The old photos sure make Bartlett Square look nice. Wasn't it reopened for the businesses there (pointless, since you can't even park on Main by the eateries)? So if we close it again, they might cut back from 11-2 M-F to 11-1 M-F???
Quote from: TheTed on October 26, 2011, 12:46:39 PM
The old photos sure make Bartlett Square look nice. Wasn't it reopened for the businesses there (pointless, since you can't even park on Main by the eateries)? So if we close it again, they might cut back from 11-2 M-F to 11-1 M-F???
I liked it. Guess someone didn't, though.
If they opened it up for the businesses on Main, it just verifies everything I have ever said or thought about how Tulsa is going. That is the "look up 'stupid' in the dictionary and they have the picture of the people who did that" moment.
Probably should have closed more streets, put in a little 'trolley', a tram, or a train system to move people around (elevated??), and had a really big "public square" thing going on. Maybe even move parking further out, and extend the transport system. If every large airport can move tens of thousands effectively, why can't the city??
Quote from: we vs us on October 26, 2011, 10:32:18 AM
A great place for a great upscale eatery is the brick building with green roof tiles across the street from McNellie's. Don't know the name of it but it's just begging to be a nice sit down restaurant, maybe even with private event space in back. Another is the red warehouse juts catty corner at the same intersection (Elgin and 1st), which could be a most excellent multi-level dining space. Or a monster sports bar.
I think Juniper will function as a bit of a test case for more upscale fare in downtown. If it sees even medium success/buzz, I bet you'll see at a couple of copycats within a year.
I've always pictured that as being an ideal brew pub, no idea why, that's what the structure says to me.