I can understand having a "fee" or charge to pay for a service of some sort, but for a bank to charge more than what is needed to pay for any service, solely in order to make more profit, seems untoward. There is no "betterment" of society. The profit isn't being earned and the action isn't helping to create new wealth, they are just taking it from the person who did.
If one is adding value, providing a better service, etc. then you can fairly and competitively charge more for those things.
But even then, and I suppose my perspective is a little old fashioned or naive, I remember being a little kid and opening my first savings account. I would save my change up and the occasional dollar or two and then we would go to the bank and make a deposit. I would watch month after month as that money would grow and would write down the interest I would earn in my little book. Now the typical, monthly maintenance fee that say BofA would charge would likely wipe a similarly inclined little kid out in short order lol.
Used to seem like the banks goal was to help you get wealthier. The more money and wealth you had, the more successful you were, the better off they were as well because you had your money and wealth in their bank. Or as it was said in that scene we all remember from "It's a Wonderful Life " Your money is in this persons house, in so and so's property, in this persons business and so on. The bank would make money on the interest. They would do good for you, help you out, you would do better, and they would do better. They were taking a risk and making a loan, would charge interest and help you to create more wealth that would then go into another loan, etc.
I remember one instance last year where I was making a large deposit from a job that I had done. The bank said they were going to put a hold on the deposit because of the large sum. It seemed like an inordinantly long time to put the check on hold. I asked them why the time was so long and the reply.... We have the right to hold a check for up to (dont remember precisely) 30 days. I had already worked a long time for that and was kind of needing it in there asap and it wasn't a local check I could cash. But regardless, I remember thinking... Sure you have the RIGHT to hold it for that long, but I am your customer, I am the one you are supposedly working FOR, I need the money to be in there soon, why would you want to hold on to a check that long? Well we all know why, so they could charge me a fee.
There again, they weren't earning the money, they didn't do anything to earn it, nothing was going on that would create a better world, better value, etc. they were just taking something because they could.
Woe be to you if you over draw on your debit card. (for a while they were saying they couldn't make it so that the transaction wouldn't go through if you were low and used a debit card, funny how they can now) Ever bought say a bag of 2$ chips or a coffee at a convenience store only to realize later you had made a mistake and now that bag of chips cost you 70$ ? First they charge you 35$ for over drawing your account, then they charge you another 35$ for not covering the over draft in time. Is 70$ a fair amount of interest on a 2$ loan lol? Again, they are getting money that they didn't earn. They werent honestly creating any wealth.
Lately though I have been in the process of switching banks to one that doesn't have the crazy fees. Consolidated some bills and loans into one loan. Elimenated all of my automatic bill withdrawals, (my income fluctuates too much for that to work well lol, better the occasional late fee from the actual bill versus the late fee AND the bank fees) etc. And now that I am hearing that BofA is adding debit card fees,,, really glad I am leaving them. And even their new fee seems wrong in that its not apparently tied to any real service or added value, they are putting it there to make up for what they say they will lose since they can't charge other fees, and on top of that say they will be making even more money off of them,,, again, not because they are adding value or wealth or bettering anything other than their own bottom line. My banking experience and the services I would be using won't be any better or different, but they will be getting more money than ever from me and everyone else. They aren't in the business to help the Average Joe do better, and thus themselves do better,,, they are after what the Average Joe has worked hard to earn, and they have not, and be danged the consequences to the Average Joe.
Surely, hopefully, the market will eventually decide. Just like me changing the banks and working all that much harder to be ever smarter with my money. But it sure seems like it's almost become the norm, a "right" even, to try to get something for nothing.
Don't know if what I was trying to convey came across as well as I would like. But some of these banks imo, are just a bunch of crooks lol.
Sort of painted into a corner...
Keeping most of your cash at home or traveling with it is no longer an option these days.
Since "90 percent of U.S. bills carry traces of cocaine" (CNN) drug dogs will be drawn to it and your savings will be seized as "drug money".
I left Bank of America for many reasons. Partially because they charged a new fee every time a day ended in Y. Partially because they continued to charge me for a Safety Deposit box for years after I closed it. Partially because when my checking account was stolen, they did nothing to stop it and their incompetent employees even reopened my account and let them take every dime I had out of multiple accounts.
I'm with Red Crown Credit Union who doesn't charge me for jack squat, posts my deposits a day earlier than BoA ever did, doesn't put holds on deposits, and has successfully blocked every fraud attempt BEFORE I got taken.
Support your local credit union, and tell BoA and their equivalents that they can kiss your cash.
Not sure I get your overdraft point Artist. If you overdraw, no matter the amount, you have spent money not belonging to you. You have spent the bank's money and the bank should be permitted to recover their money and a fee for that improper use--be it a mistake or on purpose.
As for Bank of America, good call. After they f'd over a friend of mine, I closed all my investment accounts there.
I've been happy with IBC, my account is still free there. I've given thought to going the credit union route a few times simply because they don't seem to be on the same track to charging for everything larger banks are. Plus with a credit union, you are essentially one of the share-holders.
Quote from: guido911 on October 06, 2011, 02:40:46 PM
Not sure I get your overdraft point Artist. If you overdraw, no matter the amount, you have spent money not belonging to you. You have spent the bank's money and the bank should be permitted to recover their money and a fee for that improper use--be it a mistake or on purpose.
As for Bank of America, good call. After they f'd over a friend of mine, I closed all my investment accounts there.
Hey, I spend the banks money all the time via my credit card or loans lol. I don't begrudge them their "fees" either way. It's the amount of the fees compared to the comparably tiny amount "borrowed" that seems overkill, like the 70$ charge for borrowing 2$ for the ice cream. I made a dumb mistake just a couple weeks ago, sure it was my mistake. Whenever I make a deposit from my work I put 20% into an account for taxes. I buggered up and accidently put the wrong account numbers on the deposits putting the small amount into the account I pay myself from. The check I then paid myself from out of that account almost bounced lol. If I hadn't caught the mistake quickly and bills had gone through and had purchased a number of small items via my debit card which I sometimes do, the banks could have had a fieeeld day lol. Essentially each overdraft is an extremely high "loan". You don't steal the money, they expressly allow you to borrow it and yes you know they will charge you a fee. Some banks the fee is more reasonable, others like BofA is quite high. The bank I had before them if I was at McD's to get an ice cream and ran my debit card and there wasn't enough in there to cover it, it simply didn't go through and I would pay cash or use my credit card. But BofA wouldn't for a time allow that, they would have it go through, whether there was money in the account or not, but would charge the high fee, then if you make a deposit, because your in the negative, they will put a longer hold on the check which may allow more items to be "covered" and then they changed the rules recently so that if you did not cover the charge within a few days, they would charge you yet another fee on all the items that were not covered quickly enough. Nothing has really changed from the services they gave before, they just figured out a way to add on another fee and tweak things so that they get more money, for doing nothing more than they had done before.
One of the things I just can't understand is BofA charging to cash their own checks. I remember the first time I got a paycheck that was drawn on an account from them, and they wanted to charge me $5 for cashing it (I did not have an account with them). Add on top of it the fact that I had an account through them that had gotten overdrawn and closed. Some time later, I got the debt payed off. So I figured I could get around this fee every time I cashed one of their checks by opening an account. Well, it seems that the corporate office got the memo that the debt was paid, but not the branches. I couldn't open an account because their system showed that I still owed money, even though calls to the main line confirmed them being paid.
Quote from: guido911 on October 06, 2011, 02:40:46 PM
Not sure I get your overdraft point Artist. If you overdraw, no matter the amount, you have spent money not belonging to you. You have spent the bank's money and the bank should be permitted to recover their money and a fee for that improper use--be it a mistake or on purpose.
As for Bank of America, good call. After they f'd over a friend of mine, I closed all my investment accounts there.
BoA will charge you overdraft fees even when you don't "technically" overdraft. Try this one:
10/1:
Have $100 in bank, get $20 gas at QT. In the background, BoA does an "authorization for $50 that is not visible online or to their CSRs
10/2:
Spend $40 on groceries and $25 at Taco Bueno. (a checkbook register would say you have $15 left)
10/3:
Pick up a $1 drink at QT, and $1 Sausage biscuit at Mcd.
Checkbook register shows $13 left, but you check bank and they say you overdrafted on 10/2 ($50 auth + $40 + $20 = $110 in their minds)
You got a $25 check in the mail, so you deposit it, because it should leave you safely at +$3
10/4
Check your bank balance, the authorization has cleared, but they have now charged you overdraft charges for your $1 drink and $1 sausage biscuit as well as another overdraft fee because the gas purchase finally posted. Your +$3 balance is now -$102
Initially put in $100
Spent: $87
Second deposit: $25
Final balance: -$102
Other fun facts:
BoA will hold on posting transactions if your balance is low, then post from largest to smallest, to generate the highest number of overdraft charges.
BoA posts transactions in this order: Overdraft Fees, Withdrawals, Deposits
BoA also takes at least one business day, sometimes as much as ten, to post a deposit. Even things like direct deposited paychecks.
There were numerous times when I would think my balance was one thing, via my checkbook, and or even by checking my balance via an ATM before taking out some cash, but then the next morning something strange had happened and you weren't even close lol. It was like some sort of mathematical trick puzzle to piece together what they had done. And sometimes I still couldn't figure it out. Sometimes a deposit would be "pending" and look like it was there, but if for some reason or another you got close to a lower limit on your account, it would somehow always seem to arrange to stay pending until you went over and then would implement their "many charges magic formulas" and deposit immediately after that lol, perhaps so they had enough to then cover their charges. Was there actually any set of discernable rules for how long they could hold a deposit check or keep it pending? Back in the old days if you checked your balance say via an ATM before you withdrew, or even tried to make a withdrawal that would have led to your account being overdrawn (for with them, sometimes the balance wasnt "really" the balance),,, it wouldn't allow you to. But not anymore. They had some guy from BofA on NPR the other day and people were of course complaining about these things like the ATM and the bank guy said, "All you have to do is check your balance before you make a withdrawal." I was like "Really, and what good would that do lol? And on top of that it came to pass that they got my mortgage, though they didn't have it originally, and I had one of their credit cards from before. Never was quite sure, but there seemed to be some fishy coincidences with deposit and withdrawal timings around the due dates for those items.
As for a "fee" for using someone elses money for a few days (like me and the 2$ ice cream cone example lol), what about the bank holding a 2,000$ or more check for a week? Why don't I get to charge 35$ for them using my money lol? You know danged well its been withdrawn from the bank that the check came out of, I have checked before by calling a client and having them look at their account, and though I deposited it, it wasn't in my account,,,, so where was it? My guess would be in BofA's account.
Last fall I deposited a check for over 3,000$ for a project I had worked on for a while. They held it for a few days, then it cleared, no problem. Two weeks after the deposit, the check bounced. By then I had gone ahead and paid a bunch of bills. I ended up being about 4,000$ in the hole after fees and charges. That can hurt a poor little artist struggling to make a living. You would think that if they held it and all those others before, in order to protect you they say, that once they to make the deposit, they will guarantee it or at least give you some leeway to help you take care of things. But of course not. Never did get paid back for that bounced check, kept getting the delay/runaround and the guy who wrote it was a city inspector.
I had a "free" checking account at BOA for a long time after a series of buy-outs. My "free" checking account required a minimum balance in either the checking or other account at BOA. I had a CD. They were paying really low interest on CDs. When I could still get 1.75% at the Credit Union, BOA was proud to pay 0.5% on their CDs. I finally got disgusted and changed banks.
BOK (not a typo, also changing from another bank) played the US mail delay one too many times. They were paying really crappy rates on CDs. I had a CD ready to renew and received the usual notice that I would have 7 days (or maybe 10) after the renewal date to do something other than let it automatically renew. All the other places I have/had CDs mailed the renewal interest rate in time for me to make a decision on renewal. NOT BOK. They conveniently mailed the new interest rate so I received it a few days after the grace period or whatever they call it. I fussed and fumed at the teller, wound up paying the penalty for early withdrawl of my funds and took my money elsewhere.
Maybe they don't want small accounts. If enough folks (can?) vote with their $ and go somewhere else, it might wake them up. I have no sympathy for them. Not too many industries can get the markup they do. Borrow your product for 0.5% and sell it for at least 6 times that.
Quote from: sgrizzle on October 07, 2011, 07:01:48 AM
Other fun facts:
BoA will hold on posting transactions if your balance is low, then post from largest to smallest, to generate the highest number of overdraft charges.
BoA posts transactions in this order: Overdraft Fees, Withdrawals, Deposits
BoA also takes at least one business day, sometimes as much as ten, to post a deposit. Even things like direct deposited paychecks.
Long time user of B of A since before it was bank 4 or Nations or whatever it was. I believe I remember reading they no longer post that way.
In any case I have a few direct deposits going into accounts there and they post immediately. If I deposit at an ATM they'll show $300 usable immediately and the rest has always cleared the next day.
The $5 monthly fee for debit card use wouldn't bother me except that I use that debit card at Sam's so they'll charge me I guess. Not sure if I "use as credit".
If this is actually going to happen I will prob just move accounts to USAA. It's where my mortgage, CC, and insurance is anyway. (and you can deposit checks with your phone)
*Edited to say moving from them sucks because their online banking rocks.
Quote from: Townsend on October 07, 2011, 10:14:26 AM
Long time user of B of A since before it was bank 4 or Nations or whatever it was. I believe I remember reading they no longer post that way.
In any case I have a few direct deposits going into accounts there and they post immediately. If I deposit at an ATM they'll show $300 usable immediately and the rest has always cleared the next day.
The $5 monthly fee for debit card use wouldn't bother me except that I use that debit card at Sam's so they'll charge me I guess. Not sure if I "use as credit".
If this is actually going to happen I will prob just move accounts to USAA. It's where my mortgage, CC, and insurance is anyway. (and you can deposit checks with your phone)
*Edited to say moving from them sucks because their online banking rocks.
I agree. I've been with them since I had Bank4 or whatever it was. Their online billpay is superb. I'd like to find another bank that has ebill initiated payments but my search is early. And the last time I ever had issue with them was during their NationBank days. I have twice monthly direct deposits and have never had an issue with them.
Sent from my AT&T Atrix4G using fat fingers
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 07, 2011, 08:00:03 AM
I had a "free" checking account at BOA for a long time after a series of buy-outs. My "free" checking account required a minimum balance in either the checking or other account at BOA. I had a CD. They were paying really low interest on CDs. When I could still get 1.75% at the Credit Union, BOA was proud to pay 0.5% on their CDs. I finally got disgusted and changed banks.
BOK (not a typo, also changing from another bank) played the US mail delay one too many times. They were paying really crappy rates on CDs. I had a CD ready to renew and received the usual notice that I would have 7 days (or maybe 10) after the renewal date to do something other than let it automatically renew. All the other places I have/had CDs mailed the renewal interest rate in time for me to make a decision on renewal. NOT BOK. They conveniently mailed the new interest rate so I received it a few days after the grace period or whatever they call it. I fussed and fumed at the teller, wound up paying the penalty for early withdrawl of my funds and took my money elsewhere.
Maybe they don't want small accounts. If enough folks (can?) vote with their $ and go somewhere else, it might wake them up. I have no sympathy for them. Not too many industries can get the markup they do. Borrow your product for 0.5% and sell it for at least 6 times that.
I use BOk solely for paying bills for the home, just as I use Arvest and Bank of the West for company banking for myself and wife. I was so pi$$ed at BofA that I no longer use banks for investments such as CDs or what have you.
Quote from: Townsend on October 07, 2011, 10:14:26 AM
In any case I have a few direct deposits going into accounts there and they post immediately.
I thought that too, until I switched to a credit union and suddenly my friday payday became thursday.
I got shafted on some e-bill initiated payments with BoA. Sometimes they would try to pay the full balance of credit cards instead of the monthly payment. Other times they payment never went at all. Every time I had a problem they blamed the company I was paying. It got to where I was having to babysit it so much, I turned it off.
Quote from: sgrizzle on October 07, 2011, 02:10:16 PM
I thought that too, until I switched to a credit union and suddenly my friday payday became thursday.
I got shafted on some e-bill initiated payments with BoA. Sometimes they would try to pay the full balance of credit cards instead of the monthly payment. Other times they payment never went at all. Every time I had a problem they blamed the company I was paying. It got to where I was having to babysit it so much, I turned it off.
That's just weird. You must have some bad juju or something. In the years I've been using the ebill initiated billpay, I have never had a problem. Same with my deposits. Either that or Town and I are two exceptional cases...wait, what?
Quote from: Hoss on October 07, 2011, 03:24:39 PM
That's just weird. You must have some bad juju or something. In the years I've been using the ebill initiated billpay, I have never had a problem. Same with my deposits. Either that or Town and I are two exceptional cases...wait, what?
Yes, I'm excelsior.
I blame the juju.
After years with BoA I had it down pat as to when a check would be cashed using the bill pay system. Schedule a payment to X and Y and I knew when it would be cashed. One day I found my account overdrawn by 1200 bucks and of course I flipped. I looked at the account and found they deducted a check from the account that had not even been cashed yet by the company I sent it too and to top it off the company had not even received that check. When I inquired with BoA they explained that they had changed Bill pay. Certain items would be deducted and sent out as a cashiers check while others would remain as it had with a bill pay check. When I asked what items determine what type of check it would be they replied that it was random. They refused to credit back my account, so accounts closed that day. Years later I received a postcard in the mail pertaining to overdraft fee's charged by BoA and a lawsuit, a nice smile came to my face knowing why they were being slapped.
http://www.consumerismcommentary.com/bank-of-america-settles-overdraft-fee-lawsuit/
Quote from: Hoss on October 07, 2011, 03:24:39 PM
That's just weird. You must have some bad juju or something. In the years I've been using the ebill initiated billpay, I have never had a problem. Same with my deposits. Either that or Town and I are two exceptional cases...wait, what?
I had things credit card bills and even my cell phone bill. Paid unattended for over a year then suddenly one month.. no payment. A couple of times BoA says they never got an email (the vendor said they sent one) and other times the e-bill is there, but it kicked nothing off. So in all cases I deal with cut-off notices, late fees, etc. BoA does nothing.
Quote from: sgrizzle on October 09, 2011, 11:33:03 AM
BoA does nothing.
Well, nothing to help you. They probably made money on it somehow.
I guess my answer is if you don't like banks..don't use them....
I have used a credit union since I was 14 and owned my own lawn business...I don't think I have ever paid a penny to them for anything. I now use BOK for my business and its free....guess I dont see or know why people use BOA other than "thats just what their parents did or used"
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 09, 2011, 12:02:46 PM
Well, nothing to help you. They probably made money on it somehow.
Tons
Quote from: zstyles on October 10, 2011, 08:59:29 AM
I guess my answer is if you don't like banks..don't use them....
I have used a credit union since I was 14 and owned my own lawn business...I don't think I have ever paid a penny to them for anything. I now use BOK for my business and its free....guess I dont see or know why people use BOA other than "thats just what their parents did or used"
I think they were sooner bank when I signed up.
Quote from: sgrizzle on October 10, 2011, 01:03:58 PM
I think they were sooner bank when I signed up.
They were Bank4 for me, but my parents used that predecessor, 4th National. I think my mom still has some old unused checks of theirs around somewhere...
It could have been worse; before moving back here and living in Houston I used First Interstate which I believed turned into Wells Fargo which I believe has been assimilated by someone else (can't remember who). I HATED FIB but didn't get a chance to change banks until I moved back here. I didn't have FIB for very long but they were the first I ever had that had a debit card. The old Exxon stations were the only stations that took them where I could swipe at the pump. They could also be used at the Randall's Food Markets (I think they don't even exist now).
It appears that people are starting to let the banks know they are not happy with "fees". Citi seems to only want big time depositers by charging $20 a month for a checking account unless you keep a balnce of $15,000.00 or higher. I'm leaving Chase for a regional bank here that is so much friendlier and doesn't have a mountain of fees.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/11/pf/bank_fees_switch/index.htm?hpt=hp_c1 (http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/11/pf/bank_fees_switch/index.htm?hpt=hp_c1)
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/04/pf/citi_fee/?iid=EL (http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/04/pf/citi_fee/?iid=EL)
Bank of America tweet:
QuoteIn response to customer feedback we will no longer implement a debit usage fee: http://go.bofa.com/pn7l
Quote from: Hoss on November 01, 2011, 11:15:49 AM
funny how that works...
Too bad it doesn't work like that in politics.
Quote from: Townsend on November 01, 2011, 11:18:15 AM
Too bad it doesn't work like that in politics.
Maybe it's not so much that there's money in politics, it's that individual money buys so little.
Quote from: Hoss on November 01, 2011, 11:15:49 AM
funny how that works...
Tweeting or the potential to lose a lot of
customers money?
Quote from: zstyles on October 10, 2011, 08:59:29 AM
I guess my answer is if you don't like banks..don't use them....
I have used a credit union since I was 14 and owned my own lawn business...I don't think I have ever paid a penny to them for anything. I now use BOK for my business and its free....guess I dont see or know why people use BOA other than "thats just what their parents did or used"
I'm with you. I cannot understand why anyone would use anything other than a credit union for a personal account ever. It is such a NO brainer that it literally astounds me the amount of effort and attention people expend dealing with a bank at all - example, this discussion. How many man hours have been put in just with this talk about bad bank activity. And anyone and everyone can join a CU. I am in a couple for different purposes, and there just is no other alternative as good. Tulsa Teachers (my favorite), Red Crown, Oklahoma Central - and there are others. Pick one and remove the angst from your life!
Now, for a business account in Tulsa area - yeah, you gotta use a bank for business account, and in that case BOK might be ok - several family members have their business accounts there and are reasonably ok with it, but that still makes me wonder why anyone would use a bank other than F & M or maybe Arvest. (Full disclosure - my business accounts have been with F & M for many years. Have used Arvest in past, but not now.)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 01, 2011, 11:42:20 AM
I'm with you. I cannot understand why anyone would use anything other than a credit union for a personal account ever. It is such a NO brainer that it literally astounds me the amount of effort and attention people expend dealing with a bank at all - example, this discussion. How many man hours have been put in just with this talk about bad bank activity.
I guess it is pretty bad if you're showing angst about it and don't even have an account with one.
Quote from: Townsend on November 01, 2011, 11:45:21 AM
I guess it is pretty bad if you're showing angst about it and don't even have an account with one.
I have no angst - just amazement - it's the poor, sad people at BofA and BOK that are suffering all the angst. I got out of the bank goofy-loop a long time ago (about 1975) - for the reasons that are now making all the national headlines and grist for this topic. (I have bank accounts at F & M.)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 01, 2011, 11:51:44 AM
I have no angst - just amazement - it's the poor, sad people at BofA and BOK that are suffering all the angst. I got out of the bank goofy-loop a long time ago (about 1975) - for the reasons that are now making all the national headlines and grist for this topic. (I have bank accounts at F & M.)
1975
How Visa Courted Nancy Pelosi, Hoping to Forestall Swipe-Fee Changes
QuoteEven when the credit-card giant couldn't persuade the then–House speaker to oppose credit-card reform in 2008, her campaign coffers, a former aide, and her husband's stock portfolio were rewarded.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/14/how-visa-courted-nancy-pelosi-hoping-to-forestall-swipe-fee-changes.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/14/how-visa-courted-nancy-pelosi-hoping-to-forestall-swipe-fee-changes.html)
Quote from: Townsend on November 15, 2011, 10:42:40 AM
How Visa Courted Nancy Pelosi, Hoping to Forestall Swipe-Fee Changes
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/14/how-visa-courted-nancy-pelosi-hoping-to-forestall-swipe-fee-changes.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/14/how-visa-courted-nancy-pelosi-hoping-to-forestall-swipe-fee-changes.html)
Ahh, so now I can add Pelosi, D-Visa to Dodd, D-Countrywide, Biden, D-MBNA, and Frank, D-Freddie up his Fannie
I thought it was only greedy 'publicans who are running interference for banksters.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 15, 2011, 11:25:24 AM
Ahh, so now I can add Pelosi, D-Visa to Dodd, D-Countrywide, Biden, D-MBNA, and Frank, D-Freddie up his Fannie
I thought it was only greedy 'publicans who are running interference for banksters.
Well the article actually said all that happened and they still passed the laws against the fees.
She might've shut them down 100% if they hadn't margarined her husband's muffin.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 15, 2011, 11:25:24 AM
I thought it was only greedy 'publicans who are running interference for banksters.
I believe the whole OWS thing is largely about how neither party represents the interests of the people. I don't like the Dems much, but their track record is slightly better than the Republicans in two ways. One, some of them aren't diametrically opposed to the economic policies we require to get out of this slump. Second, getting paid doesn't always get the donor everything the donor wants. It's an infuriatingly slight difference, but the first is vitally important at present.
Find me a Republican who doesn't think that the solution to our present economy is more tax cuts and you may well find me speaking well of a policy prescription that came from a Republican. Find me a Republican who isn't to the right of that iconoclast of the right wing Friedrich Hayek and you may well find me supportive of a Republican.
Quote from: nathanm on November 15, 2011, 04:18:43 PM
Find me a Republican who doesn't think that the solution to our present economy is more tax cuts and you may well find me speaking well of a policy prescription that came from a Republican. Find me a Republican who isn't to the right of that iconoclast of the right wing Friedrich Hayek and you may well find me supportive of a Republican.
Every one of them wants to bring back waterboarding torture as a method of national policy. Ahhhh...a nation of war criminals....gotta love it!
Quote from: nathanm on November 15, 2011, 04:18:43 PM
Find me a Republican who doesn't think that the solution to our present economy is more tax cuts and you may well find me speaking well of a policy prescription that came from a Republican. Find me a Republican who isn't to the right of that iconoclast of the right wing Friedrich Hayek and you may well find me supportive of a Republican.
Coburn seems to be the only one brave enough...
I mentioned this on another thread, but I don't have a problem with tax cuts when there is some sort of quantifiable behavior tied to them: like specific job creation numbers which will grow the tax base. Gratuitous tax cuts for the sake of saying "Look we cut your taxes" doesn't always result in job growth. When President Obama agreed to extend the Bush era tax cuts, I also said it was put up or shut up time for the theory that extending the cuts would create jobs. If the CBO is correct that unemployment will remain in the 9% range through 2012, then I think we can say these tax cuts did not work.
It's entirely possible though that there really are other factors at work that business finds the Obama administration policies are simply not business-friendly enough for them to start hiring again and the only way we see growth is with a GOP White House in 2013.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 16, 2011, 10:38:27 AM
It's entirely possible though that there really are other factors at work that business finds the Obama administration policies are simply not business-friendly enough for them to start hiring again and the only way we see growth is with a GOP White House in 2013.
I think it's more likely that they're not hiring because of a persistent lack of demand, both thanks to consumers still being overleveraged and being about done with tax-break funded capex. I'm sure the Eurozone crisis isn't helping anything, either. If business really is failing to expand purely because they don't like the President, despite there objectively being less in the way of new regulation than even under Bush, we need to oust the milquetoast bastards. I don't know about you, but there are a few board elections I get to vote in. (not that it really matters, since it's the retirement fund managers and hedge funds who have the vast majority of the votes)
Governance in this country in general is completely screwed. Corporate governance is, in some ways, even worse than public governance. At least the politicians
claim to be thinking 10 years out. Most public company CEOs and board members don't even pretend to care about anything past the next quarter or two. Worse, they keep voting themselves huge pay increases despite us shareholders not seeing any results.
And those tax cuts you don't mind so much? They're making the problems of corporate governance everybody's problem. We can't get away from paying for their mistakes. Much like the common complaint about government, actually.
Quote from: nathanm on November 16, 2011, 04:17:08 PM
And those tax cuts you don't mind so much? They're making the problems of corporate governance everybody's problem. We can't get away from paying for their mistakes. Much like the common complaint about government, actually.
You did catch the point that I think tax cuts should be tied to specific job creation performance, right? Not tax cuts for the sake of quid pro quo or bolstering profits if the profits are not ploughed back into new jobs.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 16, 2011, 04:21:46 PM
You did catch the point that I think tax cuts should be tied to specific job creation performance, right? Not tax cuts for the sake of quid pro quo or bolstering profits if the profits are not ploughed back into new jobs.
Sure, but if/when they fail to produce the desired results, we're already out the money. That's not to say that I think your position is untenable or anything. I agree that if we're going to attempt to use tax policy to change behavior the benefits need to be tied to performance metrics. It still doesn't change that we're all paying for failed corporate governance.
Quote from: nathanm on November 16, 2011, 04:31:10 PM
Sure, but if/when they fail to produce the desired results, we're already out the money. That's not to say that I think your position is untenable or anything. I agree that if we're going to attempt to use tax policy to change behavior the benefits need to be tied to performance metrics. It still doesn't change that we're all paying for failed corporate governance.
That's when you make them pay back the tax cuts if jobs aren't created, or maintained for X amount of time. I think I've worked on commission/bonus for so many years that I can't think outside that performance-based pay mindset ;)
Quote from: nathanm on November 16, 2011, 04:17:08 PM
Most public company CEOs and board members don't even pretend to care about anything past the next quarter or two.
Harvard Business School thinking.