Anyone gone thru this? I'd like to get some quotes to have a system installed.
I would think they are expensive. The one kind of water heater I like is the "Tank-Less" Water heater, it's just a coil of tubing and a burner and it heats up the water as you use it. Those seem like simple units but the are expensive too. Anything solar would still need a back-up heating system for nights, and cloudy days when the sun and moon don't shine. :D
Yeah, I'd most likely want a NG / Solar hybrid.
Quote from: Mike 01Hawk on June 16, 2011, 01:39:58 PM
Yeah, I'd most likely want a NG / Solar hybrid.
MikeHawk, do these get installed in the attic?
When we were shopping for houses, one of the homes we looked at had a Solar/NG system that was put in in 2008. The solar portion had been disconnected and repairs had been done to the bedroom because of a leak.
Our Realtor told us that he has seen several houses with such systems and most have been decommissioned. Apparently they have a problem with freezing in the Oklahoma winters.
My aunt has one that she has never had a problem with, but she lives in Houston where the water comes out of the tap at 98 degrees!
I would talk to a good home inspector, they are usually a wealth of good information on non-traditional mechanical systems.
Quote from: carltonplace on June 16, 2011, 02:01:00 PM
MikeHawk, do these get installed in the attic?
The one I saw on Youtube a while back was in the garage, with of course the pipes going to the roof.
Unfortunately, with natural gas in the $6/mcf range, payback is very, very long on solar or even tankless systems unless you can take advantage of a tax credit which will absorb most of the cost. Unless you are running a restaurant or commercial laundry out of your house or you and the Mrs. like to take 30 minute showers, it's really hard to justify the cost. I believe most water home water heaters are in the 40,000 BTUH range, which means if you ran at high fire for 24 hours, you would consume 960 cubic feet of gas. In reality, with a family of four, your water heater might run on average 4 hours per day and burn 160 cubic feet of gas, or about a dollars worth of gas, and that's a pretty liberal estimate. If you guys use tons of hot water, it might be worth it. If it's just the two of you, I don't know that you could ever get the payback. Take a look at your gas bill now. If you don't have a gas range or oven, standing pilot on your furnace which is still lit, gas yard light or gas grill, then your entire gas usage during the summer is simply hot water.
I live alone and generally consume 1000 cubic feet or less of gas in the summer, so I know pretty well that's how much my water heater costs me a month. Roughly $6. Even in the worst years, $10 or $12 if gas prices are up.
If you've got the natural gas back up on a solar system, you still have the delivery fees and other fixed fees for being on the gas company service. I've considered putting in an electric water heater and putting it on a timer so that I can minimize standby losses when I'm gone. If I leave for three or four days, I don't need hot water and I could shut the gas off during the summer as the only other thing I use gas for is the furnace. My dryer is electric as is my range and oven. I've never researched what it would cost to re-instate service in the winter. If it's very significant, then even that strategy wouldn't work for me. I'm basically wasting $20 to $24 a month on service fees during the summer for less than 1000 cubic feet of gas.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 16, 2011, 04:00:28 PM
Unfortunately, with natural gas in the $6/mcf range, payback is very, very long on solar or even tankless systems unless you can take advantage of a tax credit which will absorb most of the cost. Unless you are running a restaurant or commercial laundry out of your house or you and the Mrs. like to take 30 minute showers, it's really hard to justify the cost. I believe most water home water heaters are in the 40,000 BTUH range, which means if you ran at high fire for 24 hours, you would consume 960 cubic feet of gas. In reality, with a family of four, your water heater might run on average 4 hours per day and burn 160 cubic feet of gas, or about a dollars worth of gas, and that's a pretty liberal estimate. If you guys use tons of hot water, it might be worth it. If it's just the two of you, I don't know that you could ever get the payback. Take a look at your gas bill now. If you don't have a gas range or oven, standing pilot on your furnace which is still lit, gas yard light or gas grill, then your entire gas usage during the summer is simply hot water.
I live alone and generally consume 1000 cubic feet or less of gas in the summer, so I know pretty well that's how much my water heater costs me a month. Roughly $6. Even in the worst years, $10 or $12 if gas prices are up.
If you've got the natural gas back up on a solar system, you still have the delivery fees and other fixed fees for being on the gas company service. I've considered putting in an electric water heater and putting it on a timer so that I can minimize standby losses when I'm gone. If I leave for three or four days, I don't need hot water and I could shut the gas off during the summer as the only other thing I use gas for is the furnace. My dryer is electric as is my range and oven. I've never researched what it would cost to re-instate service in the winter. If it's very significant, then even that strategy wouldn't work for me. I'm basically wasting $20 to $24 a month on service fees during the summer for less than 1000 cubic feet of gas.
The problem with tank-less gas (as we learned) is that when the electricity goes out, you have no hot water, because the ignition system requires electricity.
Some of the "high end" gas heaters also require electricity, so be careful there, too. Just put a second tier heater in a house about 3 weeks ago. 40 gallon, Whirlpool, about $600. (Plus installation costs).
Back to the beginning - asking about motivation - why do you want solar?? (Same reason as people by a Prius?)
One thing to definitely look for is a 'heat exchanger' (indirect heat) system for Oklahoma. This is where the collector heats an anti-freeze type solution (non-toxic!!) and then circulates through the tank to heat the water. Will generally mitigate the effects of freezing weather - piping won't freeze. This comes at the expense of some efficiency and a little more complex hardware installation. Last longer.
In summary, I would love to have a solar heater!! Maybe not cost effective, but the cool factor is through the roof!!
We are in our 30s and hope to be in this house for a long long long time. Wife is a bit hippy. I'm a bit geeky/shrewd. But it looks like Oklahoma energy costs are just too dang cheap to look at renewables from a $ perspective :(
Count on replacing water heaters about every 8 to 12 years, no matter what. The manufacturers have "dialed in" the construction so you won't get more than that.
Natural gas with the 40 gallon tank of choice will give you the same service as any other - they are all about the same until you spend a really big pile of money. 12 year warranty is what I put in the last one those few weeks ago. NO Electronic controls, so no power needed.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 17, 2011, 12:43:24 PM
Count on replacing water heaters about every 8 to 12 years, no matter what. The manufacturers have "dialed in" the construction so you won't get more than that.
Natural gas with the 40 gallon tank of choice will give you the same service as any other - they are all about the same until you spend a really big pile of money. 12 year warranty is what I put in the last one those few weeks ago. NO Electronic controls, so no power needed.
Not so much the way they are manufactured as the calcium in our water. They literally fill up with calcium deposits or it coats the element/exchanger until they won't heat or burn out. You can mitigate this by installing a water softener with a whole house R/O unit, but that's expensive. I make mine last a long time by draining every year and removing the element (electric) and soaking in CLR to remove the chunks of calcium.
I am interested in these new electric water softeners that basically change the charge of the dissolved particles in the water, but I don't know anyone with any experience with them.
Quote from: Gaspar on June 20, 2011, 07:28:17 AM
Not so much the way they are manufactured as the calcium in our water. They literally fill up with calcium deposits or it coats the element/exchanger until they won't heat or burn out. You can mitigate this by installing a water softener with a whole house R/O unit, but that's expensive. I make mine last a long time by draining every year and removing the element (electric) and soaking in CLR to remove the chunks of calcium.
I am interested in these new electric water softeners that basically change the charge of the dissolved particles in the water, but I don't know anyone with any experience with them.
I worked around industrial water treatment for seven years and still design industrial heating systems which sometimes require R/O or softeners so permit an observation or two.
I don't recommend softening your home water unless you live in a rural area with well water and it's ungodly high, like in the range of 200+ parts per million or about 12 grains per gallon. The calcium and magnesium are beneficial for helping to prevent corrosion in your water lines unless your entire plumbing is made of pex pipe, then have at it. As well, the sodium discharge is highly corrosive if you have cast iron sewer lines. If you've got clay pipe or PVC, then again no biggie. Keep in mind though that the tank in your water heater is still made of steel, so there again the buffer against corrosion is important.
I'm aware the homes in Lortondale were originally plumbed with galvanized pipe, so I'm assuming that may have been standard M.O. for new construction in the 1950's. Soft water will speed the rate of corrosion in these old pipes. As far as how late that went, I have no idea. Copper will corrode at a much slower rate than iron or steel, but it will still corrode.
R/O is even worse, as it strips out all minerals including alkaline minerals and in the process can lower the pH of the water.
Drain the tank down once or twice a year and that's more than sufficient. Besides, calcium and magnesium are beneficial minerals your body needs.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 08:55:47 AM
I worked around industrial water treatment for seven years and still design industrial heating systems which sometimes require R/O or softeners so permit an observation or two.
I don't recommend softening your home water unless you live in a rural area with well water and it's ungodly high, like in the range of 200+ parts per million or about 12 grains per gallon. The calcium and magnesium are beneficial for helping to prevent corrosion in your water lines unless your entire plumbing is made of pex pipe, then have at it. As well, the sodium discharge is highly corrosive if you have cast iron sewer lines. If you've got clay pipe or PVC, then again no biggie. Keep in mind though that the tank in your water heater is still made of steel, so there again the buffer against corrosion is important.
I'm aware the homes in Lortondale were originally plumbed with galvanized pipe, so I'm assuming that may have been standard M.O. for new construction in the 1950's. Soft water will speed the rate of corrosion in these old pipes. As far as how late that went, I have no idea. Copper will corrode at a much slower rate than iron or steel, but it will still corrode.
R/O is even worse, as it strips out all minerals including alkaline minerals and in the process can lower the pH of the water.
Drain the tank down once or twice a year and that's more than sufficient. Besides, calcium and magnesium are beneficial minerals your body needs.
Sorry to drift a little, but I just put in a new kitchen faucet; first one I've ever seen with Pex (I'm guessing it was, it seemed like flexible, high impact plastic). It was a mid to high end Delta faucet.
Is this stuff fairly durable?
OK, back to the regularly scheduled thread. Sorry.
Quote from: Hoss on June 20, 2011, 08:57:57 AM
Sorry to drift a little, but I just put in a new kitchen faucet; first one I've ever seen with Pex (I'm guessing it was, it seemed like flexible, high impact plastic). It was a mid to high end Delta faucet.
Is this stuff fairly durable?
OK, back to the regularly scheduled thread. Sorry.
Pex is designed to withstand heat and oxidation. I'm aware of it being used in hydronic home heating systems like they use back east or up in the high country. One of my neighbors used it extensively in the remodel of his home a few blocks over.
Pex is good stuff. For faucet connection, should be very good. Used a lot in RV's, too. I have used it in a couple of small projects and have mixed feelings. There is some "forgiveness" to freezing if unpressurized, but the fittings used seem to be more fragile - have had a couple fittings freeze when the pipe didn't. Also, the pex is rated to 150 psi at 75 degrees, but only 100 at 180 degrees. That is kind of low for me to be comfortable with....but that is not where I have had problems, so it probably is ok.
Pex is EASY to work with. Extremely easy. And even the crimping tool is reasonable if doing a bunch of it. I haven't had to yet, but it could happen any day. Have used the crimp and tighten fittings.
Have seen several "softener" systems that basically are corrosion tools - designed to make your system corrode.
Old galvanized corrodes and rusts from the inside, eventually blocking flow and giving little or no pressure at the faucet. Love the idea, but not the implementation. Copper tubing is the solution. Almost as easy as pex, with just a little practice, and never have to worry about temperature/pressure.
Water heaters - yeah, they should be drained periodically, but most people don't even know that needs doing. Still, the leak inside the burner tube that drips down on the burner is a rust function. And all the calcium in the world won't stop that. They will rust out in a fairly well defined manner for the most part because they are a "calibrated" steel thickness that won't go much beyond the warranty just so you will buy another one in a semi-predictable time frame.