The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

We will have a small market/grocery, mexian food, japanese food, pizza, bbq, bbq, bbq, sandwich shop,bowling ally, irish pub, retropub, bars, t-shirt shop, boutique shop, football, basketball, baseball, hockey.

What else would you like to see?

I would like to see a comedy club and a movie theater (Alamo Drafthouse Style)

I had never heard of Alamo Drafthouse before yesterday. Now, I really want one.

http://cf.drafthouse.com/she_texted_we_kicked_her_out2.html

Anything fun or attractive to fill in the surface lot bordered by McNellies, Joe Mommas, and Fleet Feet.

Please

Multi-level mall, drinking/food establishments, apartments/condos...Hell, mini-golf course, escalator to nowhere, whatever.

It's kinda like the "no electronics on during takoff/landing" rule on airplanes. Any little bit of leniency will be abused and its easier to have a strict, blanket policy.

Pinot's Palette!  

I had a friend just go and she said they (group of 6) had a blast.  It's not something I would go to often but every once in while I think it would be fun with a group or another friend.  I imagine enough others in a metro with close to a mil. would to make it viable.  It would be another destination to bring one downtown for dinner and other activities.

http://www.pinotspalette.com/

Upscale steakhouse.  Ruth's Chris would be my preference.

I think the concept of Pinot's Palette is good.  I think it would be very hard to judge demand for that type of thing.

I want a big bakery that has great breakfast stuff for the office, hearty sandwiches for lunch and great bread by the loaf to take home for dinner.

Some place to fill a growler with good beer, be it a liquor store, brewpub, or just a regular bar that fills growlers. Since that's not likely to happen any time soon due to hypocritical lawmakers (small government, lack of gov't interference in commerce, ha!), a regular liquor store.

I'd also like a walgreens or similar store.

And some more takeout places that are open nights/weekends. Some more places in the mold of the Dog House (open late, counter service) would be great.

Agreed! Alamo Drafthouse is the most awesome movie-going experience I've ever had.

Another vote for Alamo Drafthouse... preferably in that huge parking lot south of McNellie's.

'twould be awesome.

What boutique shopping is there besides Dwelling Spaces? Downtown, Cherry Street and Brookside are all lacking in cool places to shop.

Meant to say "Shop" :)  Fixed it

Movie theater in the building just north of El Guapo.

How about a Mahogany or McGill's since those are both area companies?  I've never eaten at Ruth's Chris so I cannot comment as to the food or experience, I simply tend to try to be more loyal to local companies and proprietors.

Besides, why would you support Ruth's Chris?  Major Sean Hannity sponsor ;)

With the current retail/entertainment/dining-scape in downtown, I'd love to see some sort of dense residential or mixed-use development which includes reasonably affordable residential to the east of the Joe Momma's/Boomtown/Max/Back Alley area.

Darn. I was hoping some new places were in development.

Re: steak . . . . I don't have anything against the local options, but at least with the folks I deal with, a national chain would have some cache and trustworthiness. 

But if Hannity's involved, sheeeeeit . . . . let's have a Sullivan's instead.

Also: more retail is a must-have.

Movie Theater.  Preferably Alamo Drafthouse or Studio Movie Grill style, but even a basic theater would suffice as long as it is nice and attracts people downtown. 

Housing obviously.  It's slowly coming around, but I'd like for it to speed up.

Retail.  Crate & Barrel would be a good addition to Tulsa, but they are usually part of shopping complexes, not by themselves.  Ikea would be the ideal, it would draw people in from out of town, but its a pipedream I know.

As far as the parking lot surrounded by McNellies, Joe Mommas, etc, I wouln't mind if that lot were landscaped and kept a parking lot as long as businesses were developed around it.  A well landscaped lot with a park feature would work, and give great views of the surrounding venues.  Also provide parking since, as much as I know people want a pedestrian only area, attracting people downtown will always require parking as Okies will not be giving up their cars anytime soon.  Just a thought.  I also would not mind seeing it infilled if it were the right development.

Spexton
Lyon's Indian Store
Lee's Bicycles
Fleet Feet Sports
There was a winery on 3rd last I went by

Thanks. That is a very sad list.

+1 with a main entrance and neon marquee fronting Elgin with structured parking for the district directly to the east.  That will hopefully free up some of the surface lots for redevelopment without losing parking.

I'll add that the lot between Cincinnati, Detroit, 2nd and 3rd would be perfect for a new urban park that bridges the gap between the CBD and Blue Dome.  It could even have parking underneath.  It would be the catalyst to restaurant/retail/residential redevelopment around it, and would visually connect the business district and main gateway to the BOK Center (and PAC) with the Blue Dome area (especially with the rooftop signs still visible across the park).  Maybe a new library, science museum, cultural attraction, et al could eventually be built facing this park, like on the surface lot fronting 3rd.

It's a start and considering it consists of all existing businesses which chose to relocate there.

Grizzle, where is Spexton's now?  I noticed they are not down near 3rd & Kenosha anymore.

Pefect spot for an IKEA, Frankfort to Lansing, and 6th st to 4thst. Thats about the foot print of most IKEA stores. ~900,000sqft/20 Acres.

Ruth's Chris is upscale?  I wasn't impressed at the one I went to (granted it was wayback and in Houston in the early 90s).

I know this building on 1st between Detroit & Elgin that would make housing.  The bricks are in meticulous condition.

Wasn't Ruth's Chris supposed to go in the stalled (dead?) shopping center proposed for the SW corner of 61st & Yale?

Upscale in the sense of "expensive," which in some sectors is synonymous.  The ones I've been to (as recent as last year) are pretty swank and modern yet comfortingly corporate.  Think of it this way:  you'd find them anchoring only the finest malls in suburbia. 

Which probably explains why it was on Richmond Rd.  I guess it's still there.  Probably explains all the more why I wasn't impressed.

  I think we are just about good to go on the eating front.  We are now far more lacking in shopping.  Also a movie theater would be nice and of course more living.  

  I don't really go out to the clubs or bars anymore.  I perhaps go downtown to eat about, on average, once or twice a month. I also go down there for the occasional meeting.  I would like to have more reasons to go downtown than those things.  If I could go to walk around a bit and do some shopping, and eating. then that would add perhaps another day or two per month to my "trips to downtown".  Add in a movie theater and a museum or two, then you have got me down there spending money, and also likely eating, perhaps one more day a month.  Events like Mayfest and the occasional concert add a few more times per year.

 

Urban Zipline!

Honestly, that sounds pretty freakin' awesome!

I've got to agree with the youngin' on that one.

The area needs a bugger bar....the demographics fit.

Make your own burger burger bar? Tried Fat Guys? If not you need to go right now.

Add me to the Eat in/Drink in Movie Theater crowd

More housing/living
More hotels
Liquor Store
Retail - Urban Style. Downtown needs clothing stores, shoe stores, housewares, toys, books, music (I know everyone gets music and books online now but I like to pick up, hold and read real books) bodegas, athletic gear, etc. I don't like the idea of a mall unless it is like the plaza or utica square. Local and Botique will fit well in the CBD, Brady and Dome. National retail in the west or east side of downtown.

Carlton. I believe he was talking along the lines of a "Smut" bar.

Ahhh, my reading comprehension is not fully engaged yet.

No idea what a "bugger" is (at least in north american lingo, in British parlance you would not want to go to a bar where that was the main attraction)...must be fogey for gentlemen's club?

"Booger" is what I hear it referred to.

Got it. FOTDclownbearpig is such a hater.

I love my downtown, warts, boogers and all.

I think there are bigger needs than this (such as a movie theatre, more shopping, grocery store) but a gelato shop would be nice.

Mods across from Elote has Gelato.

I thought there already was in the "adult theater". Oh, sorry, they only serve milk shakes for you, and I thought you were opposed to booztards downtown.

BIGGER...misspelled. Conan, one track mind. Proof is in the pudding! :D

A bigger bar? Nah, I don't think that's what you implied at all.

I second a liquor store.  Naysayers says it will be frequented only by transients.  I say if you don't stock Mad Dog or Colt 44 they won't show up.  Me thinks a bigger version of Grand Vin, with better prices, would do great downtown.  The Philtower/Philcade would make a great location.

Have the liquor store patrolled by some of Kitchell's old security force, shouldn't have any prob...nevermind.

This would be awesome! Start from the top of the BOk Tower and end at Boston Methodist church  ;D

Thought of another.

A big iconic water fountain with pool set in a plaza surrounded by eating establishments and other active commercial fronts.  One big enough that fair numbers of people can congregate around the edges.  One shallow enough that kids (and kids at heart) can wade their feet in.  I think I saw one in AggieArch's conceptual (which I like btw).

I always liked the stallions fountain in the Plaza (KC) except for it's location, bound on three sides by busy multi-lane streets.

I think we could use a Vegan Black Metal restaurant in downtown.   :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZlih4DDNg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZlih4DDNg)

More employers - especially headquarters or regional offices.  I know that is not what the orignal question was asking, but Tulsa needs real and significant growth to attract and support all of the great ideas identified in this thread.  Oh, and a movie theater like an Alamo Drafthouse would be at the top of my wish list.

I had something like that in the Cathedral Square idea I proposed in front of the Holy Family Cathedral.  You could also put a large Christmas tree in the center and turn the shallow part into a skating rink in the winter.  What a knock-out view that would be sitting under an outdoor loggia at a sidewalk cafe facing west, seeing the cathedral  and fountain lit up at night, people watching as they shop around the square... sigh.  Its a classic element that so many great cities have, and we still have the opportunity to be able to create one that would be stunning.

Here is one version of that.  Change the cathedral there to ours (I think ours would actually be prettier), imagine a fountain off there in the center, and add a loggia to the front of some shops (that perhaps have living and offices above). Can even be a very contemporary loggia of some sort for shade.  Then imagine what it would look like at night all lit up
(http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/1118/loggiarynekglownykrakow.jpg)

Nice Dana....but Tulsa won't support healthy eating....

Dbackup, there's no way IKEA comes to Teatown.

Sorry - there's no way our Life Safety/Security group would go for that.

 ;)

I'm quite well aware of that. I was just pointing out the average size of one of their locations in relation to space downtown.

What's the status of this building (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Tulsa,+OK&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.51141,65.390625&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Tulsa,+Oklahoma&ll=36.160824,-95.990832&spn=0.006341,0.007982&z=17&layer=c&cbll=36.160911,-95.99088&panoid=lcKbdnREZu_i0p7OloYqrA&cbp=12,202.59,,0,-0.36) (google maps)

It seems primo for some hip lofts, bar, restaurant, office space, or anything without boards on the windows.  Those windows face east onto the Reconciliation park and oneok field... There are also windows on the south side facing downtown.

Your link puts me on the corner of 2nd and boulder

Weird... puts me on the street view of Detroit & Cameron

The north 1/3 is owned by the Stadium Trust while the southern 2/3 is owned by GKFF Real Estate.  Who knows what/when will happen.  It's a great building from the street and office/res up top would seem like a great idea with big open store/restaurant fronts on the sidewalk.  I can't imagine a commercial conversion of the site any time soon.  There's not enough north of the building to generate enough traffic to justify. 

This would be great housing for OSU Tulsa professors/researchers.  I wish they would do something really cool for that group on the UCAT land.  But, I digress.

A real sports bar.  There are places with TV's that you can watch sports, but I mean a place that emphasizes it like Buffalo Wild Wings or Fox & Hound.  Not that it needs to be one of these chains, just using that type atmosphere with several TVs and a focus on watching sports.

+1 on more marquee employers or regional offices.  Young professionals, hate them as you may, working, living, and spending money downtown will drive all the "cool" growth you want.  More people in denser areas in general...  and work draws them.  Plus business rehabing old buildings or occupying existing ones prevents more surface parking.

So our Chamber has pretty much railed to attract mid to large sized companies to the area, whats your plan to attract them?

One problem with Chamber promotions of the area (be it direct marketing or general TV ad's) is they only promote the lakes, the casinos, and the mall. They forget about downtown, cherry street, and brookside, the urban parks system, the trails, the nightlife, the sports, and anything else that may matter to young urban professionals.Heck we don't even promote that we offer a wide verity of lifestyle options, be it urban, suburban, the in between that is most of midtown, and country living. 

We as a region suck at promoting ourselves.

I agree, we need to market our diverse lifestyles.

Really. What if they decrim drug use when we surrender the war on drugs? Will you tolerate the stoners?

I wonder who we're promoting ourselves to.  Every Chamber success on the jobs front seems to be in the blue collar segment.  And I'm not against a new fleet of welders coming to the city, but I'm pretty positive -- as a demographic -- these aren't the people who will live in and rejuvenate downtown.  

I'm sure they're promoting themselves to those groups being discussed.

But those are the same group that EVERY city in the region is also trying to attract.  So just because we aren't seeing many successes (yet) doesn't mean they aren't actively going after those groups.

On the QT:  rumor has it that the Ruth's Chris people are at it again, looking at at least one downtown location and another unspecified Tulsa location (could be anywhere).  Wish I had more info to pass along but damn, I wish someone would go ahead and get one built already.

Speaking of "QT", I would love to see an urban style QuikTrip in downtown. No gas pumps. Just a smaller store portion. The market portion would be a great addition to downtown.

Ha ha... funny you mention that.

I've advocated that idea with my brother-in-law, who is fairly high up at QT.

Probably not happening any time soon.   :-\

Several of us have guessed before but maybe you can get real answer.  Does a convenience store make more money from gas sales or from sales inside the door?

Beer and Tobacco

Revenue from gasoline sales is much higher.  However, margins are much lower.  Items inside the stores are much better margins than gasoline.

Magoo's....billards and music and food....

Also, a titty bar for Conan.  :-[

According to my brother-in-law, they don't make anything from gas, especially when it gets expensive. Apparently, there are razor-thin margins on gasoline.  Also, for whatever reason, the higher gasoline is, it squeezes their already thin margin on it.  I'm not sure why that is the case, but he told me once that when gas gets above about $3.50 or $3.75, they just barely break even.

That's why they've spent millions of dollars upgrading and making the inside of their stores better and significantly increased the quality of the food.  Because the more people they attract inside the stores, the more money they make.

One advantage QT has over other gas stations in the Tulsa market is volume.  They may get squeezed on the way up, but because they buy so much gas they can take their time taking it back down and make that money back.  Or, just lower it quicker and make the guy who owns one station choose to match and lose money or stay high and have less volume.

From what I have seen over the years. QT sets the price that all others follow.

Quik Trip Stadium home of the Tulsa Roughnecks MLS/USL franchise . . . 20,000 seat open concept tied to Oneok Field. Pretty sure MLS/USL play opposite Drillers, so pull of folks downtown to spend $$$

I've often seen theory over the years, and I'm always curious how people think this works.

Wholesale gasoline prices are set by the global commodity market.  Then you add in things like local taxes, transportation costs for gasoline, refining costs, etc.

Just like all other retailers, QT will add a few cents per gallon of margin.  In any city of decent size, all retailers are going to have the same mark-up.  Otherwise, people would just go get their gas elsewhere.

How many big cities do you see a wild variation in the price of gasoline at the pump?  It doesn't happen because gasoline is a fungible commodity. 

And as much as retailers try to sell people on the idea that their gas is "better", people don't buy it.  They see all gas as the same and will thus just go where it's cheapest.  That's why, unless you're in a really small town or in a really isolated area, gasoline prices are basically the same across an entire market.

That's not entirely true.  Is gasoline price set by the future commodities market?  Sure, but that is the wholesale price.  The marketer that is selling to the c-store gets their scrape.  The guy that sells to QT I'm sure takes less of a scrape due to their volume than he does from the guy who owns one store.

In addition, Tulsa historically was a nickel cheaper than OKC until Git & Go left the market.  Shortly after they left it flipped.  Don't you think a little less competition from an entity with similar buying power was the driver behind that?

The only way smaller c-stores survive today is on marketing 100% gasoline and pure convenience.

My remark was just for this area. QT has the most gasoline stores and what they set their price at is what others in the general market follow. I'm sure in other cities it may well be set by Shell, Citgo etc, etc.

I would like to see the 52nd floor of the BOK Tower become a restaurant.

Quality control is probably better than it used to be.  Specifications are probably stricter too.  When we first moved here from Phila PA area in 1971 I noticed a difference.  I bought Sunoco back east, mostly because dad worked for one of Sun's subsidiaries.   We moved here as part of the Sun/Sunray DX "merger".  When I got here, I used DX.  I got about 1 less mpg (11 to 12 vs. 12 to 13, not counting Interstate travel) using DX than I had using Sunoco.  I went back east to finish college and resumed buying Sunoco and the gas mileage went back up.  Another family car noticed a similar change, including gumming up the carburetor.  When I came back for the summer while waiting to get drafted, I changed to Texaco.  Gas mileage matched Sunoco and there were no carb problems. 

I don't have any hard data to look at on that, but what I'll say is this -- both Tulsa and OKC always have among the cheapest gasoline in the nation.  That's because we're both right on top of refining capacity and the transportation costs to get gasoline to our markets are virtually nothing.

So if QT is somehow controlling gas prices in Tulsa, they aren't doing much of a markup over the wholesale prices (plus taxes, etc.).


I'm not saying there aren't differences.  I'm saying that most people don't believe there are.  They just buy gas wherever it's cheapest.  That's why gasoline prices are virtually the same across entire metro areas.


No chance there.

The Williams Board Room is the only thing on the 52nd floor.  The 51st floor was recently re-done and is full of conference rooms.  The 50th floor (where I sit) is full of offices and the 49th floor is the executive floor.

It looked like they were doing something to the old gym last time I was on 52. That is a ton of space that could be used for that. The executive conference room isn't that nice any more anyway. It needs to be redone... and moved ;o)

Swanky.  Hows the view?

Seven or so years ago (I was little so I don't remember) my family and I were walking downtown during the march of the penguins when a man walked out of the Williams Center and asked if we wanted to go to the top. We went to either the 51st or 52nd floor and it was really cool. Very elaborate. He said they hold weddings there.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6966540873/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6966540873/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6966555801/in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6966555801/in/photostream)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6820433996/in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6820433996/in/photostream)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6966642765/in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6966642765/in/photostream)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6966644677/in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569847@N07/6966644677/in/photostream)

I'd say that's pretty damn swanky!

The old gym is on 51. :)

And yes, it is being made into conference/training rooms.

The Board Room on 52, which is getting a bit dated, is also scheduled to be re-done.


Ha! I wouldn't call our floor swanky.  It's just a cube farm with a nice view. :) 


They used to have weddings up here, back when 50/51 was a resturaunt/bar like the Summit Club.

But it's been office space for some time now... since about 2001/02, IIRC.

A pharmacy.

Actually, OKC has some of the largest variations you will find in any market.  You will see swings of .40 over a two or three mile drive.  You will even see a .02 to .03 difference amongst the three On Cue's in MWC which are no further than two miles apart.

Tulsa seems to have good uniformity in pricing.  Count on QT being at one price and Shell or Sinclair (or whatever brand) is .10 higher for "real" gas.  Aside from QT, the field is pretty thin in Tulsa.  OKC seems to have far more gas retailers and many more independents in the market.

Thanks for the info!

So now it appears that Ruth's Chris will be located in the One Place tower.  And it was described to me as a done deal.  So there. 

Can't possibly be true.
Everybody knows that downtown can't support stuff.
Where are they going to park / one way streets / homeless people / people firing guns in the air!

Speaking of parking... just stumbled across
http://boingboing.net/2012/03/13/rethinking-a-lot-the.html

Wow, in that little restaurant space with poor direct outside access?

Huh-uh. TTC said it can't be done and so its just not possible.

Totally, right? 

If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.  Consider that it will be a block from the Hyatt and a block from the BOK and a block from the new Aloft and a block and a half from the convention center.  Also about three blocks from the Mayo.  Also clustered between Cimarex, Northwestern Mutual, a raft of new condos, and a Homewood Suites (or whatever).  And it's a win for One Place as a marquee (for Tulsa) anchor tenant. 

One Place is the new Cimarrex building, right?

Hell, I never thought I'd see the day when there would be enough new development going on downtown that I'd even have to ask what or where a building was.

Sorry, got confused. I was thinking the FIRST Place Tower.

Yes, new Cimarex building.

Thanks Wev.  Any idea if RC becomes somewhat of an anchor for other upscale national retail or food/beverage?

Chains and franchises aren't really my cup-o-tea, but if it brings more interest to the area from which the locals can benefit, they do serve their purpose.

From the convo I had, RC is definitely an anchor for more retail/restaurant in that specific project, though none have been named. In general, the retail/restaurant environment over there is just coming in to focus, and I think we'll hear more officially soon.  Also, when they announce whatever the hotel brand is, I think that will be an additional push. 

In addition to the other good things about adding an upscale chain, it sets a nice tone for the rest of the development, and arguably for the surrounding blocks.  If that part of the city is "Ruth's Chris-ish" then more upscale will come in. 

FWIW, I keep hearing rumbles about both Page Belcher and the open parking lot just north of where the Cimarex building is going up.  Nothing specific, just that stuff's happening.  For one supposedly the Fed's lease at Page Belcher is up soon.  And that block would be a perfectly place for a convention hotel.  But that's an idea that boomerangs back every year or so, so I'm not sure how seriously to take it. 

I sure do like spreading rumors around on the interwebs, though  ;)

I second that thought.  Additionally, chains, especially an upscale chain like RC, provide a level of validation that an area is development worthy that could open a lot of doors to additional development and developers who have been waiting on the sidelines.  If this happens, it is a very big deal.

I agree that the "validation" is key...it's akin to waving the start flag and moving the pace car out of the way. This is an exciting announcement; it could be the signal for more ground up development in other surrounding surface lots and definitely  makes the empty buildings on Cheyenne Ave more desirable. 

Let's just hope the exuberance to re-develop doesn't create a bubble & glut. 

Bubble & Glut, that might make a great name for a pub...

Kinda like "Three Sheets & Cooter Brown" lol

So I've never been to a Ruth's Chris.

Sounds like it's an upscale steakhouse chain?  I'm guessing it's akin to Morton's or Flemmings?

And I also agree about the chain thing... it's not my cup of tea either, but once the chains -- especially upscale chains -- start locating downtown, you know we've reached a tipping point.

Been to one.  Vegas.  Big mistake for that age.

Good place, bad idea for a group of 20-somethings on a bachelor party weekend.  Whoa momma.

The blue hairs sitting around us were very forgiving or understanding.

Agreed, I know I will here the "don't Jenks my downtown" but having major chains locate in an area is an indication of desirability.

I'm actually okay with chains being in downtown.  However, I want those chains built in a way that doesn't destroy the existing urban fabric.  For example, if Ruth's Chris was tearing down the buildings next to McNellie's to build a suburban style restaurant I would very much be opposed.

I find the arrival of chains to be a signal that the demographics of downtown are improving greatly.

Is it just me or is ruth's Chris a Terrible name for a restaurant?  It makes me think of the rural juror from thirty rock.  I've said this before, chains are not in and of themselves bad.  Especially when they are something new that we haven't had before (that okc doesn't).

Ha!

It's definitely like "The Rural Juror."   ;D

There's a story behind it. I think it was originally called Chris and then Ruth bought it and called it Ruth's Chris. I may have just made that up, though.

Not to sound like a parrot, but I agree as well. I would hope that any business would be mindful of it's surroundings. It would be just as inappropriate for say the new chocolate shop out on 71st to completely tear down the old Lone Star and build an urban building up to the street. People don't want to walk next to a race track, just like people don't want to walk through I parking lot downtown.

I would hope that businesses would keep this in mind, but I think I that would be giving most far too much credit.

I've been to a Ruth's Chris, although it has been quit some time. Around 2005 my wife and I went to one in San Antonio, just on the edge of downtown. I thought it was pretty good. They broil their steaks at incredibly high temperature. It allows the steaks to remain quit tender as no flames are used that may dry out other steaks. They must be expanding in general as my wife was just down in Fort Worth and she said one was just put in right next to the Hilton she was staying in downtown.

If it happens, it will be a good thing for downtown Tulsa. Where else do you get a steak downtown?

Yes. That is the story.

It serves an excellent, but pricy steak. I have eaten at a few of them. They are very nice.

Oh wow, I thought I was alone on this. That name just rolls off the tongue weird. Then again it could be my Okie accent.

I'd like to see these guys open up a few here.  I loved their restaurants back in the nineties when in I lived in Houston.

http://www.pappas.com/home/

Pappadeaux on Oak Lawn was one of my favorites in Dallas. I think the chain started in Arkansas, not sure why we haven't seen any in Oklahoma. Don't know too much about the other brands of Pappa's restaurants.

A similar restaurant with a little more casual atmosphere that I enjoyed was Razzoo's Cajun Cafe. Would be a fun addition around the Blue Dome.

I have eaten at the Pappadeaux several times when I lived in Phoenix, and it was always busy. Food and service was always good.

I'd like to see a Panera or a Cosi (http://www.getcosi.com/).  In general, we need a large-format cafe that bridges the major service times downtown.  Having a gathering place that's got mid AM and mid PM covered.  I know that both chains have urban concepts (as separate from the kinds we currently have in town) and would fit well in a ton of different ground level retail spaces, especially around Bartlett Square.  Unfortunately, I don't know for a fact that there's actually a need to bridge those service times yet, but I have a feeling, with more residential coming online and with the possibility of more young 'uns downtown with the TU/OU med school project, we won't be on such strict business-lunch hours.

Doesn't Billy's On The Square fit that niche now?

Chain started with the father in Texas, Arkansas and Tennessee in the 40s.  The sons moved to south Texas and decided to run it from there where it became immensely more popular.  Not sure how many of those non-Texas locations survived the move to south Texas, but know that it essentially remained a Texas staple in the nineties when I was living there.

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Excerpt from WikiPedia:


I can remember them building a Pappadeaux right next to my office in Houston.  Good food.  Also went to the seafood place (Pappas) many times.  Never went to their TexMex restaurant; as I favored Ninfa's at the time.  Best tortilla soup on the planet.

Sorta? 

I don't know if Billy's does breakfast or dinner, and there's definitely no emphasis on coffee-culture, which I think is central to Panera/Cosi.  Meaning not just coffee, but comfy stay-awhile seating, wifi, that kind of thing.  Panera/Cosi also have that third-place vibe -- that place that isn't work and isn't home, which is kinda the whole point of their business model.  Billy's may offer those services but having been there more than my fair share, I can't say you'd want to hang out there for more than the span of time it takes to eat a burger.

If Cosmo Cafe wanted to put out a shingle DT, that might also work. 

Other than in the full-service hotels, is there really a demand for a breakfast place?  I just assume most people grab something at home or on their way downtown.  Is there also a need for a coffee place for hipsters to bum free wi-fi in the off-traffic hours downtown?  I just figure the lounge areas at TCC or OSU/Tulsa serve that market the best.

Juniper. If you haven't eaten there yet then stop what you are doing and go right now

Hippy Hipsters are already draped over the couches at The Gypsy, I don't think Topeca is ironic enough for them.

Consarn those hipsters and their skinny jeans and porkpie hats and negative body fat counts.

The hipsters arn't at the gypsy.  THose are the overly earnest arty types.  They usually are under 21 and write large amounts of bad poetry.  I know, I used to run their open mic.  The hipsters I know are really into good coffee and would much rather be/work at Topeca.  Some of the most hipster type people I know work at Topeca (including roastery).

Ruth's Chris is good, but I find the steaks have too much butter on them.  I'd much prefer Morton's or my personal favorite, Capital Grille.

Brady Tavern serves a good steak.  FWIW, The Summit serves a great steak and many times they'll have a buffalo cut available.

I'll second that.  I've attended one of their Throwdowns (latte art competition) and my jeans, t-shirt & Chuck Taylor's make me stand out.  Lot's of "cool kids" in the room and plenty of fedoras.  But, that's not to say they aren't great people, because its a very accepting crowd of hipsters.  I absolutely love Topeca Cafe and Joebots Coffee.  Great coffee, great owners, great baristas and two very different but great atmospheres.

Are the hipsters still hanging out at The Max or did the Affliction and True Religion jeans finally run them off?

I thought the hipsters were at Soundpony.

Am I getting out of touch?

Speed racer types too.

Capital Grille? Are you buying?

http://www.thecapitalgrille.com/menus/D1_Dinner.pdf (http://www.thecapitalgrille.com/menus/D1_Dinner.pdf)

we are.

Wholly snapple ! Do you extend your pinky out when you drink too ?

I have been to Capital Grille, Flemmings and RC and I can only reference the ones in the Phoenix area, all of them are located in upscale/high end areas. RC and Capital are located in the Biltmore area which is just about three miles from all of the major resorts, Phoenecian/Biltmore/Camel Back and an area where there are corp hqs and financial businesses, and the same two are in North Scottsdale near TPC Scottsdale/what used to be the Princess Resort/ Discount Tire HQ/Heinkel-Dial Corp HQ/ and several financial businesses and Flemmings is in the heart of resorts in Scottsdale.

With the rebirth of DT I think Ruth's is a good addition, and with other business building or moving DT I think it will do well.

I assume a RC downtown will primarily focus on business travelers/client entertaining.  Currently there are not many places downtown compatible with high-end expense account meals.  Junipers is great, but it is often full and the menue is pretty small (not a problem for me, but a negative if you are taking people you do not know well).  Typically for such meals I now go to Utica Sq. or Cherry St. even thought the travelers are staying downtown.

No, but I do wear an ascot.

Those prices really aren't that far out of line with other places in Tulsa.  Mahogany, Flemings, The Summit, Palace Cafe, etc will all get your for $50-60 a plate before cocktails/wine/beer.  Isn't a Does Eat Place steak easily $35?

We dined at Palace Cafe a few weeks ago and dinner for two with a bottle of wine (~$40) was $130 with tip and that was for a vegetarian meal.  I had a ribeye, side, and a glass of wine with a friend who is a member of The Summit a few weeks back.  My portion was $85.

Ruth's Chris is a similar price point.

Unless you are a member of The Summit the only "high end" dining downtown is Daily Grill.  Brady Tavern tries to be higher end, but it isn't quite there IMO, although I find it very, very good.

Also, if you are entertaining an out of town guest for business it is a bit more impressive to take them to a chain they are familiar with.  Not all out of town guests want to visit the local upscale eatery.  They want something that makes them feel comfortable.

Funny, I only seem sensitive to price when I'm home.  Partially because MC and I love to cook and are pretty good at it and I won't pay big $$ for marginal crap in a contrived atmosphere.  However, for a truly great meal, I have no problem opening the wallet, I just won't eat like that seven days a week.

When I travel, I don't worry as much about it.  I'm just back from 10 days in the BVI, I don't even want to discuss the total food/beverage budget for the week.  Oh, but the atmosphere and incredibly fresh fish!

No, not a trick photo, and not a salad plate.  Anegada lobster.  1/2 a lobster will keep you busy for an hour, $35 at Big Bamboo at Loblolly Bay quite a bargain compared to Maine lobster and much sweeter meat:

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/IMG_1867.jpg)

Just one question: How in the heck did you get a yellow lemon in the BVI?

Dude, he got a girl to go to BVI with him.  The yellow lemon is incidental.

Thread winner!

Yellow lemon is not hard at all to find there.  Consider that the primary butter we had was from New Zealand, milk was from a dairy in Florida, and they even had Fiji water.  I would suspect most citrus in the US and BVI comes from Florida.

I forget Nathan, did you say you do drink Presidente when you are down in the DR?  I had forgotten it was brewed there.  2nd favorite beer in the tropics behind Carib.

Yes, it's my beer of choice in the DR. Of course, there's not a lot of choice among beers in the DR. I don't think I've seen Carib there. I'll look out for it when I'm back down there this summer.

I second this.  I wasn't in Tulsa for the Roughnecks but from what I have heard they had a pretty good following.  We were in KC last summer for a KC Sporting game in their brand new stadium and I couldn't help but dream about an MLS team in Tulsa. 

Also, while I am writing, how about a QT on the north side of downtown between Cincinnati and Detroit?  I live in Brady Heights and there aren't a lot of options for gas close by.

I was a "Roughneck" fan and went to most all the home games. Tulsa had no idea what the team pulled off when they won the "Soccer Bowl" it was very exciting to win what the "New York Cosmos" always won.

As a resident of near north Tulsa, I'll second that.  The state of the Zen Zel Plaza gas station is such that I avoid even gasing up my lawnmower there.  I'd love to see a QT at Pine & LL Tisdale.

I had not thought about Pine and LL Tisdale but that would be a great spot.  I have often wondered why QT has hardly any stores in north Tulsa.  Has there ever been any explanation from them for this?

The same reason most other chains aren’t nuts about serving north Tulsa- crime rates and fear of loss.  Let’s face it, the crime maps and reports in the news don’t paint a great picture.  You also won’t find a QT store at 61st & Peoria and they are a little more scarce in rougher parts of east Tulsa.

Before you call me an ignorant hater, I personally don’t fear north Tulsa and even regularly bicycle through the area, out Edison and in Cincinnati from Sperry.

Chet himself told me they wouldn't open a store in N Tulsa due to the concerns with shrink and employee safety.  I might find that to be somewhat unfounded at Pine & Tisdale, but it's hard to argue with the overall demographics.

COT should require QT to put stores in North Tulsa as a gesture of good faith.

Well, maybe not.

Require? No. Encourage? Absolutely.

If the business case is there, they will do it.

Chicken and egg.

I know of two that used to be in near north Tulsa.  One was at Archer and Quanah (the building is still there, I rode the bus to Stilly with a guy who used to work there), and Main and John Hope Franklin (Part of the big vast wasteland just north of downtown that will become OSU-Tulsa around the time my body converts into petroleum).  Both of these, from what I hear, were closed due to crime problems.  The things is that those neighborhoods are changing, fast.  The question to ask is: do you really want a big bright and loud QT within 30ft of your house?  IMO, Just go to the QT at Gilcrease hills it's close enough but far away enough.

I understand QT's concerns about shrink and employee safety but then how do they justify locations at 15th & Denver and 11th & Utica? Both of those have the same clientelle as a Pine & Tisdale would have with the added concentration of homeless, crack heads, crazies and drunks.

Wherever I have gone to a convenience store north of 51st I have encountered what I consider marginal risk patrons. Beggars, drive-offs, drunks, stoners etc. They are magnets for lowlifes.

If QT thought there was enough money and they could adequately staff one without too much hazard pay, they would do it I'm sure.

I disagree with your assessment of the 15th and Denver store. You mostly see professional types and blue collar workers during the day and the pre/post party crowd from downtown and 18th and Boston at night. There is an occasional transient, but I see more at the 51st and Yale store. There are often police there and I have never felt remotely at risk, even late at night.

That store was a little rough 5-10 years ago, but it has improved as downtown has improved.

We're probably on different time schedules. I see transients and low lifes there all day long (between 9 and 2 then after 5). Keep in mind there is a pawn shop directly across the street, the crack apartments that often catch fire just south and west, the synagogue they actually burned down just east and a straight shot down Denver to the courthouse plaza. I am not being judgmental. They add balance and color to the area and juxtapose nicely with the attorneys, blue collars and local residents. I'm just saying that wherever you have a convenience store that is well located for traffic...these people will show up. They follow the money.

Yesterday, I stopped by to get some beer and cash there and was immediately hit up for pocket change as I entered. A year ago a good friend left the pump there to go inside and the car next to her filled up his car on her card!

Your friend must have left the pump on while she went into the store.  I'll guess she doesn't do that again.

I got hit up by bums more regularly at the QT across from Skelly Stadium than any other place.  I’ve never been hit up at the 15th & Denver or Gilcrease store.  I was just thinking how I hate the layout and traffic in and out of the QT @ 51st & Union.  Turns out they appear to be building a new one on the NE corner behind KFC.

They will now have had one on three of the four corners at that intersection.

Conan, on the old Warehouse Market location? Or did they demolish some of the retail strip?

Details were sketchy. IIRC she left the pump going with her youngest in the van and went in to get the child a frozen drink. The car next to her had been waiting for an opportunity. He pulled the nozzle out of her car, filled his car then put it back before she came out. She was surprised to see that her van held so much gas.

Of course you got hit up by bums regularly, you lived down the street. ;) In all seriousness, I do get asked for change once every few months. There never appear to be any hard feelings when I have nothing to give, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. My SO used to get asked for money at least weekly at 15th and Denver. She doesn't fuel there as much now that we don't live clear on the other side of town, so I don't know how it changed after the rebuild.

What I find odd is that I have never seen a homeless person sitting outside the store at Admiral & Delaware.

I live at 15th and Denver. The population and regularity of "grifters" asking for money is greatly reduced since the new QT store, the new credit union, the new Carthage Ave were completed. The population of "drifters" seems to be steady, I see people hiding or sleeping along the BA around Denver Ave. I wonder if the loss of the downtown YMCA and the economic downturn are to blame? Overall downtown I experience fewer people (pretending to be homeless, lost, in need of surgery, broken down on the highway) asking me for money these days.

I don't know that I've ever been asked for money at the 15th & Denver store.

I've long held the belief that homeless people (or anyone we might perceive as undesirable) are everywhere, but we only notice them when the numbers are in "their" favor.  The population at the QT at 15th & Denver & 11th & Utica is typically so diverse and the place so crowded that it easy to feel like the numbers of "undesirables" are less.  It's the same with downtown.  Part of the reason you seem to see less "undesirables" hanging around is because you now see so many other people that they no longer stand out.

NYC has many more homeless people walking the streets than Tulsa will ever have, but you don't notice because they are so greatly outnumbered by all the people.

Simple cure for panhandlers:

When one approaches, ask him/her for $5 or if they manage to hit you up before you can ask them, tell them you were just going to see if you could bum money off them. 

bucking fascist

heh heh :o