While running across the 21st street bridge over the Arkansas river I stopped a moment to catch my breath and gaze at the riverbed whereupon, I saw a couple of pistols outlined against the sand. Like a good little scout I trudged through the stinking detritus of decades of abuse to retrieve it. After all, its a free gun, eh?
One of the guns turned out to be a Daisy air pistol. Cool looking but just a toy. The other one reminds me of a WWII 45, though I know very little about guns. It is heavy, may have a wooden grip but definitely an automatic. It is encrusted on one side with sand and rock.
Some questions-
1. Should I contact the authorities in case it was used in a crime? Would have been several years ago I think.
2. Anyone know the best way to clean it up? I doubt it can ever operate again but what do i know.
3. It may still have ammo in it. Is it safe for me to attempt clean up?
I know some of you are serious enthusiasts. Thanks for any help.
BTW, don't go walking under the east side of that bridge unless you are confident in your ability to defend yourself and have a strong stomach. Really embarrassing to see so much trash within throwing distance of the new restaurant. It looks like a Goodwill truck dumped its load and left.
Be very careful with the auto. Water probably killed the powder, but cannot be sure. It was/is probably hot and may have been used in a crime. You don't want to be the one holding it if that is so. At the least, there will be many questions. Kind of like a game of musical chairs that you don't want to "win".
There may be someone out there who would throw away a legitimate .45, but that is more money than I would ever pitch! Or left, if I dropped it out of a boat.
If the handgun was underwater long enough to become encrusted with sand and rock, the ammunition inside has most likely become water logged. But don't assume that it's so. Treat it as if it was loaded today.
It's your call as to whether to report it to TPD. I don't know their policy on found property, but I'd suspect they won't return the gun to you even if it checks out OK.
A photo would help with identification, especially any markings.
Call them (TPD) anonymously and ask them. Can't hurt and they might even answer! They should be able to look up a number right then. If it is .45 military, the serial number will be on right, just above trigger guard, on frame. Will say "United States Property" above the number. Left side will have company name just above the safety latch on the slide. Ithaca Gun Company is the most common WWII...
There should be a big hole in front end...don't look down there...
Picture would be good. Or a few.
Thanks for the info. I'll spend a little time cleaning it up to try and find the numbers and mfr. Not sure about calling the TPD. Is there such a thing as calling the TPD anon?
I'm retarded about pics uploaded to this forum. I'll try later.
Here's what I know so far. It does have numbers on the right side though they are only visible when the gun is wet. The left side has two markings that are hard to make out entirely but it looks like VICTOR or VICTORY above the trigger guard and LONG RIFLE on the barrel. The gun seems to be made of bronze? The trigger is fluted brass and the barrel is not big enough to be a 45. The grips are probably walnut and the clip is still in it.
The salt, sand and concretions have taken a toll on its finish. Pockmarked.
Sound like anything you know of?
Long Rifle will be a .22 cal. I've been trying to find something that would have victor(y) on it, but haven't found anything that fits what you describe. Have you tried doing rubbings on the imprints to see if you can read more?
Does it look anything like this?
(http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/HG_highstandardvictor_200903-A.jpg)
Yes! Trigger is slightly different. But that is the gun. What is it?
It's a High Standard Victor, went out of production in '87.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/HG_highstandardvictor_200903/index.html
Yeah, i just looked it up. Too bad. It was a pretty gun. Gold trigger, safety and clip release, aluminum sight rail, walnut grips. A target pistol I guess.
Its soaking in dishwashing soap tonight. Gotta be better than river water.
Personally I wouldn't want to get caught with a stolen gun no matter how creative a story I could come up with for how I found it.
I would at least call the TPD non-emergency number and have them send an officer out to take a found property report. If you tell them you want to keep it they should let you (although what I found wasn't a gun.) They run the serial numbers and if they contact you with 90 days you have to give it up. They never contacted me.
Turn it in to TPD. They will issue a "evidence reciept" to you. If it was stolen and registered they will attempt to return it to the owner. If it was not registered (likely with a gun that old) and not determined to be used in a crime they will contact you and arrange to have it delivered to a local dealer where you can pick it up and register it. This may take several years, but unless there is another owner, or an obvious ballistics match to a crime. The gun is your property.
You have a responsibility to contact TPD. Not to do so is a crime because you have taken possession of an unregistered handgun.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 11, 2011, 09:03:59 AM
Turn it in to TPD. They will issue a "evidence reciept" to you. If it was stolen and registered they will attempt to return it to the owner. If it was not registered (likely with a gun that old) and not determined to be used in a crime they will contact you and arrange to have it delivered to a local dealer where you can pick it up and register it. This may take several years, but unless there is another owner, or an obvious ballistics match to a crime. The gun is your property.
You have a responsibility to contact TPD. Not to do so is a crime because you have taken possession of an unregistered handgun.
While I agree if it were me, I'd contact TPD, I'm not sure your take on "registered" firearms is correct.
What does the law read which allows the exchange between private parties at a gun show? It's not uncommon to be able to purchase a handgun without a background check at a gun show from a non-dealer. It's a known practice and could easily be enforced by only allowing licensed dealers to sell the guns, yet it's not.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 11, 2011, 09:31:31 AM
While I agree if it were me, I'd contact TPD, I'm not sure your take on "registered" firearms is correct.
What does the law read which allows the exchange between private parties at a gun show? It's not uncommon to be able to purchase a handgun without a background check at a gun show from a non-dealer. It's a known practice and could easily be enforced by only allowing licensed dealers to sell the guns, yet it's not.
Any purchase or exchange (handgun) at a gun show goes through the exact same background check. When you purchase a handgun at a gun show, you do not leave with that weapon. It is transfered to a local dealer and you pay a small fee for the check. After 5 days you can pick up the weapon. Any purchase or exchange of handguns by non-dealers still require registration. Anyone participating as a collector or exhibitor at a gun show must have a dealer's permit or be operating under the permit of a local dealer.
I love gun shows!
Let me follow up with that. . .Some dealers have the Call/Check system and a fax machine at the gun shows, and this can bypass the waiting period, but when you leave with the weapon it is registered to you!
Quote from: Gaspar on May 11, 2011, 09:52:53 AM
Any purchase or exchange (handgun) at a gun show goes through the exact same background check. When you purchase a handgun at a gun show, you do not leave with that weapon. It is transfered to a local dealer and you pay a small fee for the check. After 5 days you can pick up the weapon. Any purchase or exchange of handguns by non-dealers still require registration. Anyone participating as a collector or exhibitor at a gun show must have a dealer's permit or be operating under the permit of a local dealer.
I love gun shows!
As you are aware I enjoy my 2nd Amendment rights and go to gun shows occasionally. A friend of mine sets up at the two Wanenmacher's shows each year. He's most definitely a collector and not operating under anyone's permit much like the several hundred other collectors who come to buy and sell.
If you buy from an FFL at the show, they call in the check and you leave with the weapon as soon as you are cleared which is instantaneous. You can pay cash for a handgun or long gun from any number of private collectors and walk out without so much as a background check. As well, you can walk into Academy, Sports World, Dong's etc. and walk out 15 minutes later with a handgun if your record is clean. I believe the 5 day wait expired some time back.
I don't believe Aquaman's story. I think it is all wet.
He is probably a double naut spy and this thread is being monitored. If I were you guys, I would go throw all my guns in the river right now. Don't say I didn't warn you.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 11, 2011, 11:22:16 AM
As you are aware I enjoy my 2nd Amendment rights and go to gun shows occasionally. A friend of mine sets up at the two Wanenmacher's shows each year. He's most definitely a collector and not operating under anyone's permit much like the several hundred other collectors who come to buy and sell.
If you buy from an FFL at the show, they call in the check and you leave with the weapon as soon as you are cleared which is instantaneous. You can pay cash for a handgun or long gun from any number of private collectors and walk out without so much as a background check. As well, you can walk into Academy, Sports World, Dong's etc. and walk out 15 minutes later with a handgun if your record is clean. I believe the 5 day wait expired some time back.
I haven't been in about two or three years (since the last kid was born). So, I assume you are probably correct. I know the idea of the Call/Check was to do away with the 5 day period, and last time I went the only ones who could do it were the ones with fax machines who could actually scan and send a copy of your Driver's License. The address printed on your license had to match 911 records.
That's good news because I hated having to wait and then drive all the way to BFE Tulsa to pick up my guns.
When I need a gun, I need it NOW! ;)
Five days??? But I'm mad now!!!
http://youtu.be/xIpLd0WQKCY
I called in sick today...the voices in my head told me to stay home and clean the guns!
So....I am in possession (probably) illegally of a most likely unregistered, possibly stolen, likely used in a crime, type of plinker gun. My first gun and its already causing me grief.
I'll call TPD and have them pick it up. Meanwhile, throw any other guns you don't want to get caught with into the river, from the 21st street bridge, off the 5th light post from the east end.
Much appreciated-
Aquaman doesn't use guns anyway, he uses harpoons and talks to dolphins.
Waitaminute, we have mandatory firearm registration in Oklahoma? Unless federal law changed when I wasn't looking, the Brady check isn't "registration," it's supposedly just to make sure you aren't a felon or otherwise ineligible to own, and only FFLs are required to do them before transferring ownership.
Quote from: CharlieSheen on May 11, 2011, 01:47:12 PM
Aquaman doesn't use guns anyway, he uses harpoons and talks to dolphins.
and his hand was chewed off by piranha...
Quote from: nathanm on May 11, 2011, 01:52:02 PM
Waitaminute, we have mandatory firearm registration in Oklahoma? Unless federal law changed when I wasn't looking, the Brady check isn't "registration," it's supposedly just to make sure you aren't a felon or otherwise ineligible to own, and only FFLs are required to do them before transferring ownership.
Oh and yeah, no one keeps the records after your check comes back clean. Riiiiiiiiiight....
Update: called TPD non emergency and they sent out a patrolwoman. She asked how I found it. When I started to unwrap it from the cloth she got nervous about whether it was chambered/loaded whatever. I assured her it was frozen and inoperable. After telling her the story I told her what kind of gun it was, including the year it ceased production and how long it had probably been submerged. She looked at me a bit accusing and asked how I knew so much about the gun.
"I know people on the internet." IOW, I know high people in low places.
She took both guns (the other one a Daisy air pistol), my name, DOB, phone number and said thanks.
Finis.
Quote from: nathanm on May 11, 2011, 01:52:02 PM
Waitaminute, we have mandatory firearm registration in Oklahoma?
Only when a handgun changes "hands." I would assume some "farcical aquatic ceremony" in which a person receives a firearm that they did not previously own would count.
Otherwise gun dealers would just go on down to the river and toss the weapon on a sand bar, then I could drop some cash on the same sand bar and we could both walk away legally with our new find.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 11, 2011, 04:11:13 PM
Only when a handgun changes "hands." I would assume some "farcical aquatic ceremony" in which a person receives a firearm that they did not previously own would count.
Otherwise gun dealers would just go on down to the river and toss the weapon on a sand bar, then I could drop some cash on the same sand bar and we could both walk away legally with our new find.
Sooo....we have an agreement. 7pm? $100?
I've seen a lot of things in the water, including mermaids in my younger days, but it seems that stuff like this is more common:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2018/5710858469_cf80b27589.jpg)
Never seen a gun, though.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 11, 2011, 04:18:19 PM
Sooo....we have an agreement. 7pm? $100?
Sounds like a deal!
Just read this thread and it got me wondering... Lets say, theoretically speaking of course, that an old roomie moved out and left some items for they couldn't pack and mail everything to their new place out of state, including some sort of what you assume is likely a bb gun they got at Wallyworld in a plastic case. 10 years or so later you still have the thing down in some storage closet gathering dust and decide to take a peek. The case is locked but you can easily pry the middle part open since its plastic and see that it says "Martin" and some wording about being sure to use 22 long cartriges. It feels very lightweight so doesn't seem like it could be something all that dangerous. You have no idea how to get ahold of the old roomie and they didn't seem all that interested in keeping the item in the first place.
Could this "theoretical" person who has the item now get in trouble for it? If they find the old roomie, can you mail such an item to them? Or should you just throw it away "or throw it in the river lol". Does it sound like the type of gun that has to be registered? What to do?
Quote from: TheArtist on May 11, 2011, 04:56:38 PM
Just read this thread and it got me wondering... Lets say, theoretically speaking of course, that an old roomie moved out and left some items for they couldn't pack and mail everything to their new place out of state, including some sort of what you assume is likely a bb gun they got at Wallyworld in a plastic case. 10 years or so later you still have the thing down in some storage closet gathering dust and decide to take a peek. The case is locked but you can easily pry the middle part open since its plastic and see that it says "Martin" and some wording about being sure to use 22 long cartriges. It feels very lightweight so doesn't seem like it could be something all that dangerous. You have no idea how to get ahold of the old roomie and they didn't seem all that interested in keeping the item in the first place.
Could this "theoretical" person who has the item now get in trouble for it? If they find the old roomie, can you mail such an item to them? Or should you just throw it away "or throw it in the river lol". Does it sound like the type of gun that has to be registered? What to do?
The way I understand it. . .If it is a handgun and not your property, you must return it or register it. If you mail it across the border you are committing a completely different crime, unless you mail it to a registered dealer where your roomie can pick it up.
Or let's look at it entirely another way. If you aren't the sort of person who is on the BATFE radar screen and the TPD doesn't know or care who you are, you are not going to get in trouble for having that gun in your possession.
To my knowledge a friend or family member could "gift" you a gun. However, if that weapon is ever used in a crime, it's going to be traced back to the person who gave it to you and they may have to do some explaining as to the chain of custody after it left their possession.
All I know is I'm legally in possession of every weapon I own under current laws. I appreciate Gaspar's by the book approach, don't get me wrong, but don't lose sleep over this hypothetical .22 in the basement. Too bad it's not something sexier like a Colt AR-15 ;)
You cannot mail it at all. Only an FFL holder can mail to another FFL holder.
There is NO registration required, either Federal OR state for the conditions you mention. Transfer between two individuals requires no notification of anyone. No registration. It IS a good idea to get a receipt if you buy from someone.
If that person abandoned it and you make a good faith effort to return it and cannot, it's yours. Check with one of the gun shops if you have questions. Second Hand Rose on east 2nd. Tulsa Firearms at 58th & Garnet. Dong's Sporting goods. (I wouldn't bother with Academy, Bass Pro, or Walmart.)
Quote from: Ed W on May 11, 2011, 04:18:36 PM
I've seen a lot of things in the water, including mermaids in my younger days, but it seems that stuff like this is more common:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2018/5710858469_cf80b27589.jpg)
Never seen a gun, though.
A partial list of what I saw just yards from the new restaurant: lawn chairs, deck chairs, lots of clothing, a 10speed bike, a tricycle, a shopping cart, a 10 stall bike rack, shoes, hats, lots of rebar sticking up and out of concrete (rowing crew beware!), a traffic barrel, one tire, lots of bedding, packs and camping material right under the first arch of the bridge with signs of recent habitation, scores of liquor bottles, and of course...two guns.
This is not only unseemly for what is called the "crown jewel" of the city but it is likely very unhealthy and unsafe. It stinks down there.
I have spent much of the last decade up and down the river from Keystone to the low water dam and this is the worst I've ever seen. If the mayor wants to truly be known as the river development mayor haul his staff down their for some photo ops and organize a clean up. If the RPA, the city and the county can't keep up with an area adjacent to their star development on the river then it bodes badly for future development.
I still don't understand what this registration is that people keep talking about.
We do live in Oklahoma right? I mean granted we scored 2/100 but don't tell me those two require every weapon to be registered.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/OK/
Quote from: Gaspar on May 11, 2011, 09:52:53 AM
Any purchase or exchange (handgun) at a gun show goes through the exact same background check. When you purchase a handgun at a gun show, you do not leave with that weapon. It is transfered to a local dealer and you pay a small fee for the check. After 5 days you can pick up the weapon. Any purchase or exchange of handguns by non-dealers still require registration. Anyone participating as a collector or exhibitor at a gun show must have a dealer's permit or be operating under the permit of a local dealer.
I love gun shows!
Have you ever actually been to a gun show?...
And, BTW, if anyone ever decides to sell a gun at a gun show or to another individual, make sure you get full identification if you don't know them personally.
Quote from: jne on May 11, 2011, 11:40:26 PM
Have you ever actually been to a gun show?...
I hate saying this, but I went to the Wanamacher show several years ago with a friend of mine who is no longer with us.
I felt the need to clean the redneck off me when I got home....
Ahhhh....poor Hoss!!! Getting in touch with your inner redneck!! It is good for you! Relax, embrace it, and just enjoy the ride.
Not to mention the stress relief you can get in a satisfying 30 minute session at a shooting range! It is cathartic!.
Plus you might become able to defend yourself should the need ever arise - God forbid!!
Receipt I mentioned earlier should have the ID Conan mentioned jsut above on it. Their signature shows they agree with the information. If they are unwilling, don't do the deal. Not worth it.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 12, 2011, 05:56:31 AM
Ahhhh....poor Hoss!!! Getting in touch with your inner redneck!! It is good for you! Relax, embrace it, and just enjoy the ride.
Not to mention the stress relief you can get in a satisfying 30 minute session at a shooting range! It is cathartic!.
Plus you might become able to defend yourself should the need ever arise - God forbid!!
Receipt I mentioned earlier should have the ID Conan mentioned jsut above on it. Their signature shows they agree with the information. If they are unwilling, don't do the deal. Not worth it.
If you really want to get in touch with your inner redneck go to a dirt track stock car race over in Arkansas.
http://www.myspace.com/redmeatcountry/music/songs/inner-redneck-72357739
Red Meat - awesome honky tonk from San Francisco. Hometown Tulsa boy on drums.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 12, 2011, 05:56:31 AM
Ahhhh....poor Hoss!!! Getting in touch with your inner redneck!! It is good for you! Relax, embrace it, and just enjoy the ride.
Not to mention the stress relief you can get in a satisfying 30 minute session at a shooting range! It is cathartic!.
Plus you might become able to defend yourself should the need ever arise - God forbid!!
Receipt I mentioned earlier should have the ID Conan mentioned jsut above on it. Their signature shows they agree with the information. If they are unwilling, don't do the deal. Not worth it.
I'm a gun man, no doubt about that. I don't put myself in the 'redneck' category though, for obvious reasons.
And the worst I ever had about 'washing off the redneck' was when my flying buddy and I went to Alexandria LA for another one of those "$100 hamburgers". Except it was a BBQ place that escapes me now. Yeah. Try NW semi-rural Louisiana. I needed a LOT of redneck soap then. And in the distance, someone was playing "Deliverance" on the banjo.....
Gaspar's a little pedantic and somewhat off the mark here.
There's no such thing as "registering" a handgun in Oklahoma. When you buy a gun from a dealer, they run a quick background check with the Feds and keep the paperwork. They're required to keep said paperwork for a certain length of time (twenty years, I think) and required to turn it all over to the Feds if they cease operations before then. So one -could- call that registration in a certain way of thinking, although that's not ostensibly what that it is... Wear a foil hat or not, your choice. The TPD does not keep a master list of who owns which handguns (-that- would be registration), they'd at least need to get permission to rummage through FFL records (the aforementioned background check). They do keep a list of serial numbers from guns reported as stolen.
Sales, trades or gifts between two residents of OK do not require any kind of paperwork whatsoever. Some people like to write up a little bill of sale between the two parties, but it's my understanding that such a thing is more or less useless without a notary and whatnot to make it a legally useful document. No registration, no background check, no government nose in your business. There is still a little freedom left.
Quote from: buckeye on May 12, 2011, 11:04:00 AM
Gaspar's a little pedantic .
And shallow?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPWQVGBVXKI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPWQVGBVXKI)
Here's a good summary on records retention and "registration". Sorry for all the footnote numbers and clumsy formatting.
Source doc: http://www.lcav.org/content/retention_firearm_sales.pdf
"Retention of Firearm Sales and Background Check Records
Background
Records of background checks of prospective firearms purchasers and records of completed firearms sales are critical tools for law enforcement. These records are most useful to law enforcement when they are collected in a central database and retained indefinitely.
Federally licensed firearm dealers (FFLs) are required to conduct background checks on prospective firearms purchasers to ensure that the firearm transfer would not violate federal or state law.1
Although background check records do not identify the firearm to be purchased, they can help law enforcement deter fraud and detect dealers who might be providing false information about a prohibited person. Corrupt dealers may attempt to hide transfers to prohibited persons by falsifying information to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), such as listing the prohibited buyer on the sales record but submitting to NICS the name of a person with a clean record.2
By accessing the background check records, law enforcement can verify that a dealer's transaction records match the information submitted to NICS.3
Sales records, completed after a background check is approved, include information about the firearm(s) being purchased, as well as the purchaser.4
Sales records are an indispensable tool for tracing the ownership of firearms recovered in crimes.5
Without a central repository of firearm sales records, gun tracing is a slow, cumbersome process.6
1 Additional information on background checks is contained in the section on Background Checks. Some states also require private sellers to conduct background checks on prospective purchasers. Additional information on private sales is contained in the section on Private Sales.
2 Office of the Inspector General, U.S. Department of Justice, Inspections of Firearms Dealers by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Evaluation & Inspection Report I-2004-005 x-xi (July 2004), at http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0405/final.pdf [hereinafter Evaluation & Inspection Report].
3 Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, Survey of State Procedures Related to Firearm Sales, 2005 13 (Nov. 2006) [hereinafter Survey of State Procedures], at http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ssprfs05.pdf.
4 FFLs record sales information on a federal Firearms Transaction Record (ATF Form 4473), which includes identification of the prospective purchaser and, if the transaction is approved, the firearm(s) to be purchased. Additional information on ATF Form 4473 is contained in the section on Background Checks.
5 A system of firearm registration by owners also provides law enforcement with firearm ownership information that may be used to trace crime guns. Additional information on registration is contained in the section on Registration of Firearms.
6 The National Tracing Center (NTC) of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) tracks the purchase histories of crime guns recovered by federal, state, local and international law enforcement agencies. In requesting a crime gun trace, a law enforcement agency provides ATF with information on the make, model and serial number of the firearm, and the circumstances of its recovery. Using that information, ATF contacts the manufacturer of the firearm to determine which FFL purchased the gun. ATF then must contact the FFL to obtain information on the original retail purchaser of the firearm. In
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© Legal Community Against Violence 2008
Crime gun tracing also allows law enforcement to discover potential firearms trafficking and unlawful business practices by firearms dealers.7
A number of states collect and retain firearms sales information reported by firearms dealers. Collecting sales information from dealers falls short of a complete repository, however, because it does not include transfers made by private sellers, except in jurisdictions that require private sellers to conduct transfers through licensed dealers.8
Summary of Federal Law
Background Check Records: Until 2004, information on approved NICS background checks was retained by NICS for ninety days.9
This information helped ATF deter fraud and detect dealers who might be providing false information about a prohibited person, by inspecting a dealer's records within the ninety-day period and verifying that the records matched the information earlier submitted to NICS.10
If discrepancies were found, ATF could conduct a further investigation of the dealer to determine whether the dealer submitted false information to NICS.11
In a recent review of trafficking investigations, ATF determined that corrupt dealers are a significant source of trafficked firearms.12
As of July 2004, approved purchaser information is no longer kept for ninety days but is instead destroyed within twenty-four hours of the official NICS response to the dealer.13
As a result, ATF inspectors are no longer able to compare the information on file with the dealer to the information the dealer submitted to NICS. The Department of Justice Inspector General noted that the shortened retention time makes it much easier for corrupt firearm dealers to avoid detection.14
Federal law also specifically prohibits using NICS to create any system of registration of firearms or firearm owners.15
2003, the NTC was able to identify the initial retail purchaser of a crime gun 50 to 60% of the time.
Evaluation & Inspection Report, supra note 2, at 8-9. After learning the identity of the initial retail
purchaser, agents must then contact him or her to begin the process of manually tracing each subsequent owner. 7 Id. at 8-9. 8 Detailed information on laws governing private sellers is contained in the section on Private Sales.
9 Evaluation & Inspection Report, supra note 2, at x. 10 Id. at 51-54. 11 Id. 12 Violence Policy Center et al., Comments On Regulations Proposed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Department of Justice Regarding Changes to Regulations Implementing the National Instant Criminal Background Check System 10 (Sept. 4, 2001).
13 The requirement that approved purchaser information be destroyed within twenty-four hours has been included in the appropriations bills funding the Department of Justice (which includes ATF and the FBI) every year since 2004. See Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2004, Pub. L. No. 108-199, § 617, 118 Stat. 3 (2004); Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2005, Pub. L. No. 108-447, § 615, 118 Stat. 2809, 2915 (2005); Science, State, Justice, Commerce, and Related Appropriations Act of 2006, Pub. L. No. 109-108, § 611, 119 Stat. 2290, 2336 (2005); Revised Continuing Appropriations Resolution, 2007, Pub. L. No. 110-5, 121 Stat. 8 (2007); Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2008, H.R. 3093, 100th Cong. § 511 (2007). Each of these acts contains additional provisions which restrict disclosure of data obtained by ATF via crime gun traces. In 2006, Congress failed to pass H.R. 5005, which would have codified and made permanent the restrictions on disclosure of crime gun trace data.
14 Evaluation & Inspection Report, supra note 2, at x-xi; 51-54. 15 28 C.F.R. § 25.9(b)(3).
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The FBI maintains indefinitely the records of prospective purchasers whose applications are denied.16
Sales Records: FFLs are required to maintain records of the acquisition and sale of firearms indefinitely.17
The dealer must record, "in bound form," the purchase or other acquisition of a firearm not later than the close of the next business day following the purchase or acquisition.18
The dealer must similarly record the sale or other disposition of a firearm not later than seven days following the date of such transaction and retain Form 4473, the Firearms Transaction Record.19
When a firearms business is discontinued, these records are delivered to the successor or, if none exists, to the Attorney General.20
With very limited exceptions, records of firearm sales are not maintained at the federal level. The National Firearms Act Branch of ATF does maintain a limited registry of machine guns, short-barreled shotguns or rifles, and silencers, known as the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record.21
Quote from: AquaMan on May 11, 2011, 09:43:23 PM
A partial list of what I saw just yards from the new restaurant: lawn chairs, deck chairs, lots of clothing, a 10speed bike, a tricycle, a shopping cart, a 10 stall bike rack, shoes, hats, lots of rebar sticking up and out of concrete (rowing crew beware!), a traffic barrel, one tire, lots of bedding, packs and camping material right under the first arch of the bridge with signs of recent habitation, scores of liquor bottles, and of course...two guns.
This is not only unseemly for what is called the "crown jewel" of the city but it is likely very unhealthy and unsafe. It stinks down there.
I have spent much of the last decade up and down the river from Keystone to the low water dam and this is the worst I've ever seen. If the mayor wants to truly be known as the river development mayor haul his staff down their for some photo ops and organize a clean up. If the RPA, the city and the county can't keep up with an area adjacent to their star development on the river then it bodes badly for future development.
Kids are hanging out in that storm sewer...they've done that for decades
Quote from: Hoss on May 12, 2011, 09:04:57 AM
And the worst I ever had about 'washing off the redneck' was when my flying buddy and I went to Alexandria LA for another one of those "$100 hamburgers". Except it was a BBQ place that escapes me now. Yeah. Try NW semi-rural Louisiana. I needed a LOT of redneck soap then. And in the distance, someone was playing "Deliverance" on the banjo.....
Sounds like an experience I had in Hattiesburg MS, when the waitress continually kept refering to me as a "D@mn Yankee" and the manager refused to do anything about it.
Quote from: dbacks fan on May 12, 2011, 11:53:41 AM
Sounds like an experience I had in Hattiesburg MS, when the waitress continually kept refering to me as a "D@mn Yankee" and the manager refused to do anything about it.
Ever wonder how much saliva was in your food that day?
Quote from: Townsend on May 12, 2011, 11:54:56 AM
Ever wonder how much saliva was in your food that day?
Yes that ran through my mind but I was more concerned about her family members watching me walk to my car and thinking, "Can I get into my car and out of the parking lot before Billy Joe and company can get their guns".
Quote from: carltonplace on May 12, 2011, 11:52:46 AM
Kids are hanging out in that storm sewer...they've done that for decades
Isn't that the outlet for Elm Creek?
Quote from: Conan71 on May 12, 2011, 12:44:07 PM
Isn't that the outlet for Elm Creek?
Yes, you can travel back very far and the rooms are cavernous under veteran's park.
Quote from: carltonplace on May 12, 2011, 01:25:22 PM
Yes, you can travel back very far and the rooms are cavernous under veteran's park.
"They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too! "
Quote from: Townsend on May 12, 2011, 02:14:54 PM
"They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too! "
Southpark?
Quote from: AquaMan on May 12, 2011, 03:06:08 PM
Southpark?
Pennywise the clown from "It". Spookiest book from my childhood. Never looked at storm drains the same.
Killer Clowns From Outer Space seriously affected my kids. They still hate clowns.
I know kids play in the big sewers. I played in the one that ran from Owen Park to Riverside back ....well, way back. But the level of trash, filth, camp sites, etc. at this outlet is way out of control. A bike rack?! If the people eating nearby or the pedestrians walking within 40 feet of this site could actually see what is happening just out of their sight they would be pretty angry at local authorities for ignoring it. Birds, flies, bugs all are sharing time down there, in the restaurant and in the biker's faces.
Shouldn't someone in authority take responsibility?
Funny I was with Waterboy. I was thinking of Mr. Hanky
Quote from: AquaMan on May 12, 2011, 03:20:42 PM
Killer Clowns From Outer Space seriously affected my kids. They still hate clowns.
I know kids play in the big sewers. I played in the one that ran from Owen Park to Riverside back ....well, way back. But the level of trash, filth, camp sites, etc. at this outlet is way out of control. A bike rack?! If the people eating nearby or the pedestrians walking within 40 feet of this site could actually see what is happening just out of their sight they would be pretty angry at local authorities for ignoring it. Birds, flies, bugs all are sharing time down there, in the restaurant and in the biker's faces.
Shouldn't someone in authority take responsibility?
No, shirking responsibility seems to have been working so far. They are all still getting a paycheck at least. ;)
As far as debris goes for rowers, we aren't allowed any closer to the east bank than the 4th or 5th arch under the bridge. Unfortunately, it's been ages since I've been on the water. The kids have been training out at Catoosa, the masters are all on their bikes, the jogging path, or their ergs.
Aquaman, sir. I know not of this h2o boy. He sleeps with the fishes from what I hear.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 12, 2011, 03:24:51 PM
Aquaman, sir. I know not of this h2o boy. He sleeps with the fishes from what I hear.
Old habits...