The other thread was getting long and thought it could be freshened up...
I was surprised to read that some unions had actually given money to Scott Walker's campaign for Governor and other unions endorsed him.
The Milwaukee Professional Firefighters Association and Milwaukee Police Association endorsed him, with members appearing in uniform in television spots. The firefighters also gave money.
Then I realized that Governor Walker didn't include police and fire workers in his quest to eliminate collective bargaining. Those unions will still be able to have collective bargaining for their rights, pay, and pensions.
What a slimeball Scott Walker has turned out to be. He attacks unions everyday in the media and says they must be stopped. Well, except for the unions that gave him money.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/video/item/fox-news-fake-footage-for-wisconsin-protest-violence (http://www.thedailybeast.com/video/item/fox-news-fake-footage-for-wisconsin-protest-violence)
QuoteMonday's O'Reilly Factor used footage from a protest in Sacramento to seemingly exaggerate the violence of union protests in Wisconsin. The giveaway: Palm trees.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 02, 2011, 04:55:10 PM
The other thread was getting long and thought it could be freshened up...
I was surprised to read that some unions had actually given money to Scott Walker's campaign for Governor and other unions endorsed him.
The Milwaukee Professional Firefighters Association and Milwaukee Police Association endorsed him, with members appearing in uniform in television spots. The firefighters also gave money.
Then I realized that Governor Walker didn't include police and fire workers in his quest to eliminate collective bargaining. Those unions will still be able to have collective bargaining for their rights, pay, and pensions.
What a slimeball Scott Walker has turned out to be. He attacks unions everyday in the media and says they must be stopped. Well, except for the unions that gave him money.
Well if you had bothered to read the entire "other" thread, you would have seen that I already tamped down this ignorant dem talking point. Here's the link.
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=hdqG6USUaG
4 out of 314 public safety unions endorsed Walker.
Quote from: Townsend on March 02, 2011, 05:08:29 PM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/video/item/fox-news-fake-footage-for-wisconsin-protest-violence (http://www.thedailybeast.com/video/item/fox-news-fake-footage-for-wisconsin-protest-violence)
This dem talking point was also tamped down today.
QuoteThe Internet is abuzz this morning with a story that Fox News has "lied" in showing a video of an angry union protester from California while claiming its from Wisconsin. The "Palm Tree lie" (described as such because the tropical trees in the background of the protest video are used as proof of the deception) was the top two stories on Reddit's Politics board this morning. They needn't have tried so hard. While, in the 43-second clip that's being linked to on YouTube, it does look like Fox News lied, but watching the entire segment for context makes it clear that they did not.
The segment in question occurred during The O'Reilly Factor as Bill O'Reilly was discussing the anger in the union protests. At the top of the piece, he rolled footage of a number of the "union thug" videos that have become so popular on Right Wing news sites in the past few weeks. O'Reilly clearly identified the videos as collectively coming from "all over the country." As many shows do, this B-roll footage was replayed again during the rest of the segment, including during an interview with Mike Tobin, Fox News' reporter who's been on the ground in Wisconsin.
Here's where the problem occurred. Tobin was discussing Wisconsin (since that where he's been) while the general footage played in the background. Taken out of context, these few seconds would seem deceptive. But, if you'd already seen the full segment, you'd recognize what the footage was (besides, this same clip has aired on other Fox News programs like Glenn Beck and been identified as coming from California). Further, the protest footage from Wisconsin is clearly labeled "Madison" as well as date and time stamped, while the "palm tree footage" is labeled "Union Protests." Confusing? Not really, though if one were to simply see the 43-second clip on YouTube, one could reasonably raise their eyebrows. A reminder of the importance of context.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/no-fox-news-did-not-lie-with-wisconsin-palm-tree-violent-protest-video/
Hmmmm. Then why this?
"Fox News will not be moving into Canada after all! The reason: Canadian regulators announced last week they would reject efforts by Canada's right-wing Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, to repeal a law that forbids lying on broadcast news..."
http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/9037-fox-news-lies-keep-them-out-of-canada.html (http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/9037-fox-news-lies-keep-them-out-of-canada.html)
Maybe we need a law that forbids lying on the news, but of course, Fox would be the first to complain about the heavy hand of government and excessive regulation, rather than honesty, integrity, and ethics.
Quote from: Ed W on March 02, 2011, 07:07:32 PM
Hmmmm. Then why this?
"Fox News will not be moving into Canada after all! The reason: Canadian regulators announced last week they would reject efforts by Canada's right-wing Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, to repeal a law that forbids lying on broadcast news..."
http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/9037-fox-news-lies-keep-them-out-of-canada.html (http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/9037-fox-news-lies-keep-them-out-of-canada.html)
Maybe we need a law that forbids lying on the news, but of course, Fox would be the first to complain about the heavy hand of government and excessive regulation, rather than honesty, integrity, and ethics.
Fox News is already being carried by several cablers in Canada, according to a comment at your link. And are you saying that Fox News, and only Fox News, lies? I don't remember Dan Rather or all those newsers blaming the tea party for the Tucson massacre working for Fox.
Governor Walker's arrogance and self-righteous attitude toward Wisconsin's unions has been readily apparent. He refuses to negotiate. He refuses to compromise. To some that's no doubt a heroic stance, but to others it looks more like intransigence. Worse, he's shown that, in private at least, he's willing to lie to further his goal of destroying the unions. He was willing to consider using agents provocateur.
Like many governors, he probably has presidential ambitions. And he's willing to smash the unions and the Wisconsin families that depend on those unions, using them as a stepping stone toward Washington. I find little to admire in such a combination of power, arrogance, and mendacity.
Quote from: Ed W on March 02, 2011, 08:16:45 PM
Governor Walker's arrogance and self-righteous attitude toward Wisconsin's unions has been readily apparent. He refuses to negotiate. He refuses to compromise. To some that's no doubt a heroic stance, but to others it looks more like intransigence. Worse, he's shown that, in private at least, he's willing to lie to further his goal of destroying the unions. He was willing to consider using agents provocateur.
Like many governors, he probably has presidential ambitions. And he's willing to smash the unions and the Wisconsin families that depend on those unions, using them as a stepping stone toward Washington. I find little to admire in such a combination of power, arrogance, and mendacity.
Negotiate what and with whom? Walker has a vision and a goal, much like Obama had with health care reform, and he wants to see it through. He was elected and should be allowed to move forward. Or, does "elections have consequences" only work when dems are elected.
And for agents provocateur, please link to a site where this is happening. Oh, and where were you when the tea party was being infiltrated by leftists. Remember these guys?
Come on Ed, you are better than this. Stop with the selective outrage.
Cognitive dissonance much, guido?
This thread isn't about what unions or lefties or whoever you're railing against are doing. It's about the Governor of Wisconsin and his acting like a child. I thought we had all decided such behavior was unseemly toward the end of the Bush administration.
Sometimes, the difference is between right and left, but in this instance, it's between right and wrong. Walker is clearly wrong, despite the video red herrings and attempts to derail this thread. Ideology is a poor substitute for morality.
Quote from: nathanm on March 02, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
Cognitive dissonance much, guido?
This thread isn't about what unions or lefties or whoever you're railing against are doing. It's about the Governor of Wisconsin and his acting like a child. I thought we had all decided such behavior was unseemly toward the end of the Bush administration.
Acting like a child? What a a hilarious reference. "Children" are those that take their marbles and go home when they do not like what's happening. That's what 14 dem senators did. Massive failure. But please, continue.
Quote from: guido911 on March 02, 2011, 08:58:52 PM
Acting like a child? What a a hilarious reference. "Children" are those that take their marbles and go home when they do not like what's happening. That's what 14 dem senators did. Massive failure. But please, continue.
(https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u798/favre%20queen.jpg)
Quote from: Ed W on March 02, 2011, 08:56:50 PM
Sometimes, the difference is between right and left, but in this instance, it's between right and wrong. Walker is clearly wrong, despite the video red herrings and attempts to derail this thread. Ideology is a poor substitute for morality.
I meant to not introduce a "red herring" in this discussion, even though I do not think it remotely reaches that. The point is that if you and others are going to accuse Walker of being an "agent provocateur", and presumably in order to demean the governor, then you must be consistent in your criticism. In my opinion, you clearly were not. And accusing me of a fallacy? Please consider what you are saying first.
Quote from: guido911 on March 02, 2011, 06:49:52 PM
4 out of 314 public safety unions endorsed Walker.
I know. That is why it is so disturbing.
He clearly made a deal with four of the unions before the election. It was all a lie to make people think he cared about unions. Remember, he never said a word about getting rid of collective bargaining until after the election.
Thank you for agreeing with me. It is so wrong of him to exempt the unions that supported him and go after the other unions so strong.
His motives are clear. Protect those he can make a deal with and attack the others.
Suppose a fourth of the teachers there decide to just leave? Try to avoid the glib BS, just seriously think about it. And when they are gone, another 10%. Then another 10% get sick and tired of the crap.
I guess it would make the RWRE happy, since the expressed intention is the destruction of the public school system in this country. Then they can have their kids go to their exclusive private schools. And who cares about the lower 50 - 60% of the lower economic class people that cannot afford those schools. After all, the RWRE will have to have someone to clean their houses and take care of the yards.
Attacking the teachers this way is mean, vicious, and short sighted. And may well bring some serious chaos to Wisconsin that will be much more costly than what is in existence today. But then, you can always count on the RWRE to be unencumbered by intellect.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 02, 2011, 10:49:01 PM
I know. That is why it is so disturbing.
He clearly made a deal with four of the unions before the election. It was all a lie to make people think he cared about unions.
Care to provide a link to support this assertion. And again, what Walker has done with collective bargaining rights was no surprise to those affected. So stop it.
You are such an apologist. You stop it.
No, I don't have a link for my assertion. It is my opinion.
I believe Governor Walker is a creep who should resign. Feel free to use this opinion as the link.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 02, 2011, 10:58:18 PM
Try to avoid the glib BS, just seriously think about it. But then, you can always count on the RWRE to be unencumbered by intellect.
Nuff said...
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 03, 2011, 07:33:07 AM
No, I don't have a link for my assertion. It is my opinion.
You are usually pretty good about distinguishing your opinon from items stated as facts. I believe you slipped a bit on this one.
Quote from: guido911 on March 02, 2011, 08:58:52 PM
Acting like a child? What a a hilarious reference. "Children" are those that take their marbles
You could argue that the Senators are acting like children if you like, but the Governor certainly qualifies. He's the one who, despite getting the pay & benefit cuts he wanted, still continues to drag this thing out because of the collective bargaining issue and threatens to lay off thousands of state employees. Not because of a budget issue, but because of pure ideology. That's childish.
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 09:26:57 AM
You could argue that the Senators are acting like children if you like, but the Governor certainly qualifies. He's the one who, despite getting the pay & benefit cuts he wanted, still continues to drag this thing out because of the collective bargaining issue and threatens to lay off thousands of state employees. Not because of a budget issue, but because of pure ideology. That's childish.
Basing decisions on ideology = childishness? Wow. Now where are those 14 mature dem senators at today?
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 09:36:48 AM
Basing decisions on ideology = childishness? Wow. Now where are those 14 mature dem senators at today?
Still trying to justify bad behavior on the part of "your" guy with bad behavior on the part of others, I see. (and choosing not to read/understand my entire post)
How is getting what you need to solve a problem and then essentially stamping your feet and screaming "I WANT MORE!" not childish? What planet do you live on? I'd like to find this planet where we all get to have exactly what we want, damn the consequences. Here on planet Earth, Walker is just being a "doosh," to borrow your term.
Edited to add: And yes, inflexible ideology and strict adherence thereto is one of the defining characteristics of the stage of mental development known as childhood. In the adult world, we adapt to the conditions around us and have learned that issues are rarely black and white.
But Walker said he has to do this because of budget reasons.
Now it is about idealogy?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 03, 2011, 09:45:13 AM
But Walker said he has to do this because of budget reasons.
Now it is about idealogy?
Nope. That's what Nate says. I will remember this and the "other" thread. though, the next time you want to trumpet education reform. From what I have read, it's not about the kids, it's about the unions. Perhaps parents in the TPS school district will take note as well.
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 09:50:21 AM
Nope. That's what Nate says. I will remember this and the "other" thread. though, the next time you want to trumpet education reform. From what I have read, it's not about the kids, it's about the unions. Perhaps parents in the TPS school district will take note as well.
You're having a serious problem with logic this morning. Would you like me to bring you some Starbucks?
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 09:43:58 AM
How is getting what you need to solve a problem and then essentially stamping your feet and screaming "I WANT MORE!" not childish? What planet do you live on? I'd like to find this planet where we all get to have exactly what we want, damn the consequences. Here on planet Earth, Walker is just being a "doosh," to borrow your term.
I will look through your posts wherein you criticized Obama for his infamous "I won" comment during the debate over stimulus.
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/01/23/obama-to-gop-i-won/
If I do not find such a criticism, is not your position re: Walker ideologically driven and therefore childish?
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 09:52:44 AM
You're having a serious problem with logic this morning. Would you like me to bring you some Starbucks?
No thanks Clavin. /childishness snark
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 03, 2011, 09:45:13 AM
But Walker said he has to do this because of budget reasons.
The "reason" for insisting on the collective bargaining is for future budgets, not just this year's. That's what I've heard but I don't remember the timing regarding campaign vs. now.
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 09:55:54 AM
If I do not find such a criticism, is not your position re: Walker ideologically driven and therefore childish?
I can't criticize everything there is in the world to criticize. If I did, I'd do nothing but criticize. You might call the expectation that I would..childish. ;)
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 09:50:21 AM
Nope. That's what Nate says. I will remember this and the "other" thread. though, the next time you want to trumpet education reform. From what I have read, it's not about the kids, it's about the unions. Perhaps parents in the TPS school district will take note as well.
Every time you get caught you change the subject or post a video of liberals behaving badly to somehow prove your point.
I don't know if you are ADD, filled with red herring, or partying with Charlie Sheen.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 03, 2011, 10:05:55 AM
Every time you get caught you change the subject or post a video of liberals behaving badly to somehow prove your point.
I don't know if you are ADD, filled with red herring, or partying with Charlie Sheen.
He has a 10000 year old brain with the boogers of a 7 year old...
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2011, 10:05:11 AM
The "reason" for insisting on the collective bargaining is for future budgets, not just this year's. That's what I've heard but I don't remember the timing regarding campaign vs. now.
So basically he's saying that to save the budget in the future, he has to have the ability to unilaterally dictate pay without any sort of negotiation, even though the union has shown willingness to compromise when the budget demands it. (although in this case, the budget didn't demand it, millions of dollars in tax breaks did, and they're still going along with it..)
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 03, 2011, 10:05:55 AM
Every time you get caught you change the subject or post a video of liberals behaving badly to somehow prove your point.
I don't know if you are ADD, filled with red herring, or partying with Charlie Sheen.
Fine, if you want to argue Nate's point that making policy decisions based upon ideology is childish, we can do that. Just remember you will be being a huge hypocrite.
I admire you guido. Even when you are completely wrong, you don't give up.
Yes. It does take one to know one.
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 10:08:18 AM
So basically he's saying that to save the budget in the future, he has to have the ability to unilaterally dictate pay without any sort of negotiation, even though the union has shown willingness to compromise when the budget demands it. (although in this case, the budget didn't demand it, millions of dollars in tax breaks did, and they're still going along with it..)
Dictate pay? I thought collective bargaining restrictions were limited to benefits and not pay. As for the rest, are we channeling Maddow today?
Question:
If the Governor's position on collective bargaining is purely based on ideology, why is the Unions' position not also based purely on ideology? If the Unions' position is not based purely on ideology, does that give credibility to the governor's position?
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 10:14:19 AM
Fine, if you want to argue Nate's point that making policy decisions based upon ideology is childish
That's not what I said and if you don't know that by now, you should since I've tried to explain it to you at least three times so far. Ideology is a fine starting point, but this being a democracy rule should be by consensus, not fiat, so compromise is necessary. It's childish to refuse to compromise when you've already gotten what you originally claimed to want.
You have in the past complained about my moving the goalposts. Why won't you condemn Walker's moving the goalposts? Oh, right, double standard.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2011, 10:17:48 AM
Question:
If the Governor's position on collective bargaining is purely based on ideology, why is the Unions' position not also based purely on ideology? If the Unions' position is not based purely on ideology, does that give credibility to the governor's position?
As I mentioned in my last post, ideology is not the issue, it's the refusal to compromise in the slightest. The unions have compromised. If it were solely about ideology for them, they would have refused to submit to pay and benefit cuts. Walker refuses to drop the attack on collective bargaining even though he has the fix he needs for the budget already in hand.
Basically, what I'm calling childish is being a slave to ideology.
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 10:16:21 AM
Dictate pay? I thought collective bargaining restrictions were limited to benefits and not pay.
I have also heard that to be the case.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 03, 2011, 10:15:41 AM
I admire you guido. Even when you are completely wrong, you don't give up.
Yes. It does take one to know one.
I recall you were the one who posted as a matter of
fact that, "He [Walker]
clearly made a deal with four of the unions before the election" [
Emphasis mine], and when pressed for a source for that BS, tucked tail into a pitiful excuse mode. Don't you have kin that is a member of the TPS school board?
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 10:19:13 AM
That's not what I said and if you don't know that by now, you should since I've tried to explain it to you at least three times so far. Ideology is a fine starting point, but this being a democracy rule should be by consensus, not fiat, so compromise is necessary. It's childish to refuse to compromise when you've already gotten what you originally claimed to want.
You have in the past complained about my moving the goalposts. Why won't you condemn Walker's moving the goalposts? Oh, right, double standard.
Dammit Nate, I posted on several occasions that the unions KNEW that Walker was going to address collective bargaining before he was elected. Walker won. Democracy ruled. You, those 14 dem coward state senators, and the unions just cannot accept that elections have consequences.
Remember?
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 10:20:51 AM
As I mentioned in my last post, ideology is not the issue, it's the refusal to compromise in the slightest. The unions have compromised. If it were solely about ideology for them, they would have refused to submit to pay and benefit cuts. Walker refuses to drop the attack on collective bargaining even though he has the fix he needs for the budget already in hand.
Basically, what I'm calling childish is being a slave to ideology.
Ideology is not just about short term pay and benefit cuts. It is about how to take care of the future too. Works on both sides. Or I could just say the Union while looking out for their future influence is also being a slave to the ideology of collective bargaining for benefits.
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 10:26:38 AM
Dammit Nate, I posted on several occasions that the unions KNEW that Walker was going to address collective bargaining before he was elected. Walker won. Democracy ruled. You, those 14 dem coward state senators, and the unions just cannot accept that elections have consequences.
I seem to remember you having a serious problem with that concept from 2006 right on up to late 2010. ;)
Red Arrow, you could say that, but you'd be..misleading. After all, the unions have compromised. Walker has not. One is being a slave to ideology. The other demonstrably not.
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 10:35:29 AM
Red Arrow, you could say that, but you'd be..misleading. After all, the unions have compromised. Walker has not. One is being a slave to ideology. The other demonstrably not.
We'll just have to disagree about the Unions being a slave to ideology. I believe they have given up a few relatively inconsequential items to look good to the public while holding on to the item they hold dearest.
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 10:21:59 AM
Don't you have kin that is a member of the TPS school board?
Red herring day for you.
Oh, look over here.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2011, 10:57:35 AM
I believe they have given up a few relatively inconsequential items to look good to the public while holding on to the item they hold dearest.
Granted, benefits are not fundamental, as collective bargaining rights are, but the fact remains that the unions have offered a compromise that solves the problem and the Governor has refused, instead holding on for the wholesale destruction of the union. The unions are acting to
solve the problem, while the Governor is plainly not. One is acting in a logical manner, the other is not.
Here is a bizarre twist to this story.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/03/03/conspiracy-to-stall-wi-budget-repair-bill/
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 01:20:01 PM
Granted, benefits are not fundamental, as collective bargaining rights are, but the fact remains that the unions have offered a compromise that solves the problem will preserve their power in the future and the Governor has refused, instead holding on for the wholesale destruction of the union what he believes is necessary to balance future budgets. The unions are acting to solve the immediate but not future budget problems, while the Governor is plainly not concerned about the future. One is Both are acting in a logical manner. , the other is not.
I don't blame the Unions for wanting to maintain ALL of the collective bargaining items. That way they can hold the employer at bay in the future with strike threats etc.
As I said. We are just going to have to disagree on this. Speaking slowly and louder will not help your case. I speak and understand the English language.
If he needs future concessions, why not sit down with the unions at that time? So far, he's gotten everything he's asked for..
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 02:15:28 PM
If he needs future concessions, why not sit down with the unions at that time? So far, he's gotten everything he's asked for..
I've looked around on the internet a bit regarding the definition and other ramification of collective bargaining and wound up at a site with a bunch of NLRB stuff. (I think it was University of Hawaii Business School.) It looks like timing of the end of the contract and when things can and cannot be negotiated are the likely suspects. What I saw looked mostly like legal talk to protect the unions, which does not surprise me.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2011, 03:29:17 PM
I've looked around on the internet a bit regarding the definition and other ramification of collective bargaining and wound up at a site with a bunch of NLRB stuff. (I think it was University of Hawaii Business School.) It looks like timing of the end of the contract and when things can and cannot be negotiated are the likely suspects. What I saw looked mostly like legal talk to protect the unions, which does not surprise me.
American Airlines has succeeded in getting their unions to agree to concession after concession without waiting for renegotiation time. It probably helps that they still have the Chapter 11 card..
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 03:33:35 PM
American Airlines has succeeded in getting their unions to agree to concession after concession without waiting for renegotiation time. It probably helps that they still have the Chapter 11 card..
American Airlines is (at least) one case where I agree with some of the Union's demands. Giving huge performance bonuses to executives after making the rank & file take 25% cuts is unacceptable. I took a 25% cut once (totally unrelated to AA) and it was tough.
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 02:15:28 PM
If he needs future concessions, why not sit down with the unions at that time? So far, he's gotten everything he's asked for..
Why should he negotiate, especially given the union's and the dem senator's behavior?
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 04:02:33 PM
Why should he negotiate, especially given the union's and the dem senator's behavior?
Might as well flip that question.
Why should the union or democrat senators act any different when he's unwilling to negotiate? Can you list a reason that would be helpful to them?
Calling them names and claiming they're childish isn't the answer.
Quote from: Townsend on March 03, 2011, 04:09:02 PM
Why should the union or democrat senators act any different when he's unwilling to negotiate? Can you list a reason that would be helpful to them?
Not getting recalled and continued paychecks might be an acceptable reason.
The more I think about it, the more I realize how hypocritical it is for Walker to be upset by the Senators' reaction. He is attempting to ram through a rather extreme bill and is condemning reactions that are no more extreme than his own position. If you don't like extremism, don't be an extremist yourself.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2011, 04:20:30 PM
Not getting recalled and continued paychecks might be an acceptable reason.
On the subject, not the consequences.
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 04:27:49 PM
The more I think about it, the more I realize how hypocritical it is for Walker to be upset by the Senators' reaction. He is attempting to ram through a rather extreme bill and is condemning reactions that are no more extreme than his own position. If you don't like extremism, don't be an extremist yourself.
Maybe the Republicans shouldn't have told the Democrats what was in the bill until they voted for it. ;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2011, 04:42:29 PM
Maybe the Republicans shouldn't have told the Democrats what was in the bill until they voted for it. ;D
Shame, shame, shame!
(http://blog.infinitemonkeysblog.com/files/images/rep-nancy-pelosi_0.jpg)
Quote from: nathanm on March 03, 2011, 04:27:49 PM
The more I think about it, the more I realize how hypocritical it is for Walker to be upset by the Senators' reaction. He is attempting to ram through a rather extreme bill and is condemning reactions that are no more extreme than his own position. If you don't like extremism, don't be an extremist yourself.
What's "extreme" about it? The fact that some PEU members will not be able to collectively bargain. THE HORROR! Right now, in this state, our legislature is debating tort reform measures that if enacted could literally flip the light switch off in our civil courtrooms. But your more outraged over what is happening in Wisconsin?
Speaking of "condemning reactions", I cannot believe this estimate of the damage down to WI's state house by these union and their supporters slobs.
http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-20110303-capitol-cleanup-costs,0,5141893.story
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 05:16:55 PM
Right now, in this state, our legislature is debating tort reform measures that if enacted could literally flip the light switch off in our civil courtrooms. But your more outraged over what is happening in Wisconsin?
Different thread.
They're also blowing off alcohol laws again. (Different thread)
They're also pushing through our ability to wear visible side arms because that's important for us to be able to do.
I'm sure, without looking, they're pushing through some seriously dumbassed thing about religion that they know will cause more lawsuits.
You're right, we should talk about those things. On a different thread.
Walker says layoff notices will begin going out tomorrow.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117325998.html
In the article, one AWOL senator tried to collect his paycheck by having someone else pick it up. Didn't work.
Guido, is YOUR ox gonna get gored on this tort reform stuff??
Well, again, people voting against their best interest.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 03, 2011, 06:34:49 PM
Guido, is YOUR ox gonna get gored on this tort reform stuff??
Well, again, people voting against their best interest.
Not at all. I spend most of my time in federal court litigating civil rights cases (not tort cases). The smaller cases I handle, generally for people who do not have much and who I just want to help, would likewise not be affected.
Quote from: guido911 on March 03, 2011, 05:16:55 PM
What's "extreme" about it? The fact that some PEU members will not be able to collectively bargain.
Yes, the elimination of collective bargaining rights is a far right wing position. They're already barred from striking, so what purpose does it serve?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm
(Hint: The independents are not enthused about limiting collective bargaining rights either)
Quote from: Townsend on March 03, 2011, 05:23:49 PM
Different thread.
They're also blowing off alcohol laws again. (Different thread)
They're also pushing through our ability to wear visible side arms because that's important for us to be able to do.
I'm sure, without looking, they're pushing through some seriously dumbassed thing about religion that they know will cause more lawsuits.
You're right, we should talk about those things. On a different thread.
I was simply pointing out Nate's poor prioritizing of his outrages.
This is frakin hilarious.
http://www.wlsam.com/Article.asp?id=2125748&spid
Really?
You think having cops tackle a legislator is "frakin hilarious"?
You have lost all sense lately.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 04, 2011, 01:22:10 PM
Really?
You think having cops tackle a legislator is "frakin hilarious"?
You have lost all sense lately.
Lately?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 04, 2011, 01:22:10 PM
Really?
You think having cops tackle a legislator is "frakin hilarious"?
You have lost all sense lately.
Pot meet Kettle....
Walker adds new tax breaks for campaign contributors...
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/blog/2011/03/walker-exempt-prefab-homes-veg-oil.html
Gov. Scott Walker's budget bill, which he says ultimately will boost Wisconsin's economy, shows a couple tax breaks for seemingly obscure segments of the state's economy: prefab homes and vegetable oil or animal fat that's converted to motor vehicle fuel.
Under the category "other tax," the bill Walker presented to state legislators Tuesday calls for exempting from state and local sales and use taxes "modular and manufactured homes that are sold in this state, but used outside this state."
The bill notes that Wisconsin already exempts from those taxes certain kinds of aircraft, motor vehicles and truck bodies that are sold in the state but used outside Wisconsin.
This would appear to be a stimulus for Wausau Homes and other purveyors of prefab homes in Wisconsin, but Walker gives no explanation for the tax break.
Another "other tax" Walker wants to exempt is state and local sales and use taxes on vegetable oil or animal fat, providing that the oil or fat will be converted into motor vehicle fuel that, in turn, is exempt from motor vehicle fuel taxes. The motor vehicle fuel Walker refers to is only that used by an individual in his or her personal motor vehicle.
Exemptions like these can create holes in the state's sales-tax policy that can be confusing and, of course, reduce tax revenue, Todd Berry of the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance told me. He said he didn't know why Walker included these in his budget bill.
"There's probably some kind of interest group fingerprint," he said.
Why, it turns out that the PreFab company Wausau homes gave the Governor $5,000 and the Koch Brothers have a biodeisel firm in Wisconsin.
Governor Walker is going to turn out to be the crookedest politician of the year.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 04, 2011, 01:22:10 PM
Really?
You think having cops tackle a legislator is "frakin hilarious"?
You have lost all sense lately.
Yep. Do yourself a favor and go to Democratic Underground and see how they are responding. I know it won't make you laugh, but it did me. Here is a link to a story discussing what happened and why.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/raw-video-police-tackle-lawmaker-trying-to-bolt-into-wisconsin-capitol/
Perhaps if the protesters had not been acting like slobs and jack@sses, and union members across the country were not threatening people, the need to close the state house for cleaning would not have been necessary.
And again, get over yourself. You have been a real baby over this WISCONSIN issue.
If it is just a WISCONSIN issue, why do you think the national media have covered it for three weeks straight, every night?
I think this is the re-awakening of the democrats. We were complacent with electing a black man in the White House and forgot that the party fights for other causes. Civil rights, women's equality, the right to organize, education, affordable health care, etc. are all in the party's mission.
You seem opposed to each of these things. Clearly, the republican party seems mostly opposed to each of these measures as well.
This conflict in Wisconsin will be remembered as a fire that ignited democrats across America.
This coverage and I believe ultimate conclusion will find both democrats enthused and independents tilted toward the party that cares about these issues. You just wait till November next year.
Go ahead and call us names, post your right-wing blogger opinions, and when you have no answers to try and switch the subject. Your words appear desparate and your hero in the Wisconsin Governor's office a criminal for his actions.
Seriously? Bomb threats now?
http://www.piercecountyherald.com/event/article/id/33730/
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 04, 2011, 02:47:23 PM
If it is just a WISCONSIN issue, why do you think the national media have covered it for three weeks straight, every night?
I think this is the re-awakening of the democrats. We were complacent with electing a black man in the White House and forgot that the party fights for other causes. Civil rights, women's equality, the right to organize, education, affordable health care, etc. are all in the party's mission.
You seem opposed to each of these things. Clearly, the republican party seems mostly opposed to each of these measures as well.
This conflict in Wisconsin will be remembered as a fire that ignited democrats across America.
This coverage and I believe ultimate conclusion will find both democrats enthused and independents tilted toward the party that cares about these issues. You just wait till November next year.
Go ahead and call us names, post your right-wing blogger opinions, and when you have no answers to try and switch the subject. Your words appear desparate and your hero in the Wisconsin Governor's office a criminal for his actions.
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Quote from: guido911 on March 04, 2011, 03:06:44 PM
Seriously? Bomb threats now?
http://www.piercecountyherald.com/event/article/id/33730/
Wait, "threats"? How many? Was it a number of wackos sent by the Palin's? I'm sure if there were a number of threats one of them might've been ol' Todd.
But apparently it was "allegedly" one guy who was let go.
Jesus Guido, that's just sad.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 04, 2011, 02:47:23 PM
Civil rights, women's equality, the right to organize, education, affordable health care, etc. are all in the party's mission.
You seem opposed to each of these things. Clearly, the republican party seems mostly opposed to each of these measures as well.
I don't believe for a second that the Republican Party is for slavery, making women second class citizens, keeping people uneducated, and denying everyone health care. I'll somewhat give you labor unions if you give me that Democrats want to destroy business in order to advance individual workers.
There is a basic difference in the perception of the correct path to achieve the good goals.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 04, 2011, 03:21:25 PM
I don't believe for a second that the Republican Party is for slavery, making women second class citizens, keeping people uneducated, and denying everyone health care.
That's just the Jerry Falwell fall out. Most of us don't believe that but there's a loud part of our party that seems to.
Remember when Pat Robertson ran for president? He left some of that in the soup too.
Quote from: Townsend on March 04, 2011, 03:30:50 PM
Remember when Pat Robertson ran for president?
You should also remember that he didn't get nominated. (thanfully)
First, how many bomb threats are necessary for you to be worried or sickened. 10? 20? But kudos for working in a Palin attack. Expected.
And yes, "allegedly" you buffoon. Just like Loughner "allegedly" shot Giffords and killed 6 others:
QuoteLoughner was quickly arrested after he allegedly shot Giffords and some 12 others at a public event at a Safeway grocery store in Tucscon. He reportedly shot the congresswoman "point blank" in the head and may have come from inside the store. He attempted to flee after running out of ammunition and was tackled by one of Giffords' staffers.
[
Emphasis added].
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/jared-lee-loughner-gabrielle-giffords-shooter_n_806243.html
Or that Major Hasan "allegedly" killed 13 people at Fort Hood:
QuoteWASHINGTON - Army superiors were warned about the radicalization of Major Nidal Malik Hasan years before he allegedly massacred 13 soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas, but did not act in part because they valued the rare diversity of having a Muslim psychiatrist, military investigators wrote in previously undisclosed reports
[
Emphasis added].
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/02/22/ft_hood_suspect_was_army_dilemma/?s_campaign=8315
Or the "alleged" underwear bomber:
QuoteNew charges brought against alleged underwear bomber
[
Emphasis added].
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-12-15/justice/michigan.abdulmutallab.new.charges_1_new-charges-explosive-device-umar-farouk-abdulmutallab?_s=PM:CRIME
Believe it or not, at one point McVeigh was the alleged Murrah building bomber.
Folks suspected of committing criminal offenses are so because of, wait for it, "allegations". Thus the word, "alleged". The fact that he was not jailed pending charges is of very little consequence. "Jesus" you are out of your league on this one, and that's what truly is "sad".
Incidentally, have you called out or condemned any of the conduct the unions or its supporters I have point out since this mess began. You know, the homophobic/sexual abuse threat, the phony sick notes signed by doctors, teachers dragging their students to rallies, teachers lying and calling in sick thus closing schools, the Walker sucks Koch signage, threatening to break the neck and assaults on media folks, the Twitter death wishes against Walker, Congressmen telling unions they may need to get "bloody", protesters trashing a war memorial (and the millions of dollars in damage to the state house), a state assemblyman telling a colleague that she is "f&cking dead", and the other numerous examples of horrific behavior. I guess with that list, one bomb threat is perhaps not so bad--in your world.
And guido has once again successfully made a thread about himself, rather than the topic. Awesome. (and I just helped!)
Quote from: nathanm on March 04, 2011, 09:04:24 PM
And guido has once again successfully made a thread about himself, rather than the topic. Awesome. (and I just helped!)
Thank you Clavin.
Red,
You can't be serious. If you think you are, then you really should know better.
Review this again.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110223/ts_yblog_thelookout/separate-but-unequal-charts-show-growing-rich-poor-gap
This is what the real redistribution of wealth is all about. And you and I are getting to subsidize it. (Guido doesn't, cause he is one of the chosen ones....) But 99% of the rest of us do.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2011, 09:17:17 PM
Red,
You can't be serious. If you think you are, then you really should know better.
Review this again.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110223/ts_yblog_thelookout/separate-but-unequal-charts-show-growing-rich-poor-gap
This is what the real redistribution of wealth is all about. And you and I are getting to subsidize it. (Guido doesn't, cause he is one of the chosen ones....) But 99% of the rest of us do.
Please have the courtesy of quoting which of my posts you are responding to. You and I disagree on enough that "you really should know better" will be a difference of opinion.
Sorry. I get carried away sometimes.
Your quote;
I'll somewhat give you labor unions if you give me that Democrats want to destroy business in order to advance individual workers.
Now, my quote(s);
Democrats no more want to destroy business than the man in the moon does.
It all keeps coming back to the redistribution of wealth in this country (and world wide.) You mentioned earlier you didn't like a 25% cut, but that is what you have had in the last 30 years if you are getting a paycheck! Actually a little more than just 25% for most.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110223/ts_yblog_thelookout/separate-but-unequal-charts-show-growing-rich-poor-gap
Unions and negotiations with companies/governments are probably the truest remaining example of law of supply and demand we have in this country. Isn't that one of the main pillars of capitalism? A scarce resource being more valuable than an abundant one?
Except when you can buy a legislature to write a law to intervene. Like so called "right to work". Or taking away a persons right to for a group for negotiation of terms?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2011, 10:14:47 PM
Sorry. I get carried away sometimes.
Your quote;
I'll somewhat give you labor unions if you give me that Democrats want to destroy business in order to advance individual workers.
Now, my quote(s);
Democrats no more want to destroy business than the man in the moon does.
It all keeps coming back to the redistribution of wealth in this country (and world wide.) You mentioned earlier you didn't like a 25% cut, but that is what you have had in the last 30 years if you are getting a paycheck! Actually a little more than just 25% for most.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110223/ts_yblog_thelookout/separate-but-unequal-charts-show-growing-rich-poor-gap
Unions and negotiations with companies/governments are probably the truest remaining example of law of supply and demand we have in this country. Isn't that one of the main pillars of capitalism? A scarce resource being more valuable than an abundant one?
Except when you can buy a legislature to write a law to intervene. Like so called "right to work". Or taking away a persons right to for a group for negotiation of terms?
Sorry, I do believe that Unions and generally the Democratic Party are willing to sacrifice a company for the "rights of the workers". I have said in past threads that 100 years ago I probably would have been a 100% Union guy. I believe that now Unions are nothing more than a big business in themselves to promote benefits for the workers potentially at the expense of ruining the business that supports them. On second thought, I retract the "sorry". Supply and demand work until either the company or the Unions resort to violence to support their position. You know that both have happened.
Yep - there have been stupid on both sides. And so then you also know it started when the first group of workers decided it just wasn't fair to be locked in a building while it burned down around them. Or when the US Army came in with machine guns and mowed down the workers. Union movement in this country was always a reactionary movement. Reacting to excesses of Rockefeller, Carnegie, Sidney Dillon, and many, many mine owners.
Interesting time line showing how far back the problems really went. Sound bite of history, but I bet Google can fill in some blanks, if interested.
http://clear.uhwo.hawaii.edu/Timeline-US.html
Takes a big business to stand up to big business, and since the Federal government has been bought and paid for BY big business, who is left to stand up to them? Fewer and fewer every year.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2011, 11:02:35 PM
Yep - there have been stupid on both sides. And so then you also know it started when the first group of workers decided it just wasn't fair to be locked in a building while it burned down around them. Or when the US Army came in with machine guns and mowed down the workers. Union movement in this country was always a reactionary movement. Reacting to excesses of Rockefeller, Carnegie, Sidney Dillon, and many, many mine owners.
Interesting time line showing how far back the problems really went. Sound bite of history, but I bet Google can fill in some blanks, if interested.
Takes a big business to stand up to big business, and since the Federal government has been bought and paid for BY big business, who is left to stand up to them? Fewer and fewer every year.
As I said, 100 years ago I would have been a Union guy. Get with the times, it's not still 100 years ago.
Look around you at the economy today. Check out that link in a previous reply about the redistribution of wealth in this country. Not that much different. Yes, we are missing the machine guns mowing people down, but a lot of the principles are the same - just a difference in technique.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 06, 2011, 10:27:20 PM
Sorry, I do believe that Unions and generally the Democratic Party are willing to sacrifice a company for the "rights of the workers".
The Democratic Party is not by any means the party of the workers. They get union money, but most likely because who the hell else is going to get it? The Republicans?
There certainly are folks who are left of the Democrats on this, but even they by and large aren't out to strangle business. They think that greater regulation and stronger unions leads overall to a stronger business climate that has the side benefit of not grinding people up under its boot.
I could never be anti-union with a straight face, not because of ideology, but because I believe in checks and balances. The unions (should) act to check the sometimes destructive impulses of CEOs focused too much on this quarter than next year. Company management should be acting to check any greed within the union attempting to get more out of the business than is sustainable for it.
If you had not heard, the AWOL dems wanted to meet with the GOP near the IL-WIS border to discuss apparently a compromise. This was rejected, and also triggered this written response from the majority leader to the Dem minority leader:
QuoteMarch 7, 2011
Sen. Mark Miller
Parts Unknown, IL
Dear Senator Miller,
Thank you for your hand-delivered letter with an offer to meet, in Illinois, about the business and future direction of Wisconsin.
Let's set aside how bizarre that is for a moment.
As you know, this legislation is designed to finally balance the state budget, prevent layoffs and create jobs in the real world. There are hundreds of thousands of unemployed or underemployed Wisconsinites, and at least 1,500 more whose jobs are in the balance because of your media stunt. We all deserve better than this.
In the meantime, members of your caucus have been meeting with the governor's staff, talking to the media, trying to find a way back to Madison, and contradicting your message in public. In case you don't remember, you were present yourself at one of those meetings with the governor's staff. Your grasp of reality, and control of your caucus as minority leader, continues to amaze me.
As you know, your opportunity to compromise and amend the bill was on the floor of the state Senate. As you know, you forfeited that right and opportunity when you decided to flee the state instead of doing your job.
Your stubbornness in trying to ignore the last election and protect the broken status quo is truly shameful. While we wait for you and your colleagues to finally show up, Senate Republicans continue to stand ready to do the job we were elected to do, here in Wisconsin. I hope you are enjoying your vacation, and your vacation from reality.
Sincerely,
Scott Fitzgerald
Senate Majority Leader
CC: Governor Scott Walker
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/261527/best-letter-ever-top-wis-gop-senator-responds-missing-dems-katrina-trinko
Quote from: nathanm on March 07, 2011, 03:40:42 PM
The Democratic Party is not by any means the party of the workers. They get union money, but most likely because who the hell else is going to get it? The Republicans?
How about no one? Cut the operating costs and dues.
Quote
There certainly are folks who are left of the Democrats on this, but even they by and large aren't out to strangle business. They think that greater regulation and stronger unions leads overall to a stronger business climate that has the side benefit of not grinding people up under its boot.
They may not think they are strangling business but in many cases the goals of the union can do that. In addition to wages and benefits I am thinking of not allowing job flexibility and cross training.
Quote
I could never be anti-union with a straight face, not because of ideology, but because I believe in checks and balances. The unions (should) act to check the sometimes destructive impulses of CEOs focused too much on this quarter than next year. Company management should be acting to check any greed within the union attempting to get more out of the business than is sustainable for it.
So you think the Unions should run the company? If they own stock in the company, they should have as much say as any stockholder but that is all. It might be wise for company management to seek ideas from the workers but I say no to the Union as an organization for anything beyond a suggestion. Management can check greed within the Union? How? Put an offer on the table and get a workforce in picket lines?
I know there are some companies that deserve the nasty union they get and I have little sympathy for them.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 07, 2011, 06:51:32 PM
How about no one? Cut the operating costs and dues.
They may not think they are strangling business but in many cases the goals of the union can do that. In addition to wages and benefits I am thinking of not allowing job flexibility and cross training.
So you think the Unions should run the company? If they own stock in the company, they should have as much say as any stockholder but that is all. It might be wise for company management to seek ideas from the workers but I say no to the Union as an organization for anything beyond a suggestion. Management can check greed within the Union? How? Put an offer on the table and get a workforce in picket lines?
I know there are some companies that deserve the nasty union they get and I have little sympathy for them.
I tend to agree with you Red. UAW really didn't care two whits about GM or Chrysler now did they? Much of their financial problems stemmed from years of union contracts which drove up benefits to unsustainable levels. The union didn't care so long as their workers were getting theirs. That's all that mattered to them. Once they broke the company, the company ran to the government who in turn gave a good chunk of ownership to the union in return for bailing GM out of bankruptcy. I really don't see any altruism on the part of the union toward GM in this case.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 07, 2011, 07:09:57 PM
I tend to agree with you Red. UAW really didn't care two whits about GM or Chrysler now did they? Much of their financial problems stemmed from years of union contracts which drove up benefits to unsustainable levels. The union didn't care so long as their workers were getting theirs. That's all that mattered to them. Once they broke the company, the company ran to the government who in turn gave a good chunk of ownership to the union in return for bailing GM out of bankruptcy. I really don't see any altruism on the part of the union toward GM in this case.
One could equally say that it was management's overreliance on truck sales and failure to adapt to changing market conditions that sent them down the path of doom (essentially the same thing that happened in the 70s, just with a different type of vehicle)
A few years back, I saw a report
from GM themselves that clearly showed that domestic automakers didn't pay current employees excessively compared to foreign automakers. The huge numbers that turned up were made up, nearly out of whole cloth. To get the ridiculous $60 an hour figure or whatever it was you had to count retirement benefits for past employees as part of the wages of current employees. One of the big reasons this is a silly way to look at things is that the domestic automakers have significantly smaller workforces than they used to, thus inflating the current workers' supposed "pay" even higher.
Moreover, foreign automakers have almost zero current retirees, so their current employees' wages look artificially low if compared using the above formula.
Regarding actual pay structures as of about 2006, domestic automakers paid their workers about $2 an hour more than the foreign automakers. A cost disadvantage, to be sure, but nothing like the ridiculous claims of $20 or $30 an hour more that were being spouted during the controversy. The point being that unions didn't in any way destroy the automakers. Do note that Ford, like AA, was able to get concessions out of their union without playing the BK card.
Quote from: nathanm on March 07, 2011, 07:27:58 PM
One could equally say that it was management's overreliance on truck sales and failure to adapt to changing market conditions that sent them down the path of doom (essentially the same thing that happened in the 70s, just with a different type of vehicle)
A few years back, I saw a report from GM themselves that clearly showed that domestic automakers didn't pay current employees excessively compared to foreign automakers. The huge numbers that turned up were made up, nearly out of whole cloth. To get the ridiculous $60 an hour figure or whatever it was you had to count retirement benefits for past employees as part of the wages of current employees. One of the big reasons this is a silly way to look at things is that the domestic automakers have significantly smaller workforces than they used to, thus inflating the current workers' supposed "pay" even higher.
Moreover, foreign automakers have almost zero current retirees, so their current employees' wages look artificially low if compared using the above formula.
Regarding actual pay structures as of about 2006, domestic automakers paid their workers about $2 an hour more than the foreign automakers. A cost disadvantage, to be sure, but nothing like the ridiculous claims of $20 or $30 an hour more that were being spouted during the controversy. The point being that unions didn't in any way destroy the automakers. Do note that Ford, like AA, was able to get concessions out of their union without playing the BK card.
Granted, GM was far behind on innovation, however the light truck market is huge in the U.S. that isn't what killed the old GM. Too many similar brands was an expensive proposition, they could and should have shuttered Pontiac and Olds years ago and worked out a suitable joint venture with another manufacturer with Saturn if they weren't willing to do what it took to keep their most innovative line (as far as fuel-efficient vehicles and out of the box marketing) up and running.
They were also known as poor stewards of cash. One of my former co-workers moved down here from Michigan. His wife is the widow of a GM worker. He always referred to GM as "Generous Motors" as they had a reputation for spending big when it came to plant maintenance, contractors, etc.
Here's what you are missing from my last post:
IIRC, 2/3 of the people receiving health benefits and income from GM weren't working there anymore. You simply cannot pay anywhere near that kind of percentage of your payroll and benefit costs to people who no longer contribute to the productivity of the company and expect to stay solvent, especially when they had other obvious asset and cash flow management issues.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 07, 2011, 11:21:45 PM
IIRC, 2/3 of the people receiving health benefits and income from GM weren't working there anymore. You simply cannot pay anywhere near that kind of percentage of your payroll and benefit costs to people who no longer contribute to the productivity of the company and expect to stay solvent, especially when they had other obvious asset and cash flow management issues.
As many people have said over the years, "whocouldanode?" When GM agreed to those contracts, they were already enormous and growing like topsy. They're not terribly generous
for the time, even. Pensions and health benefits in retirement weren't exactly uncommon back then. It was just part of what you got in a manufacturing job. And it wasn't even a problem because the foreign competition hadn't made inroads into the market yet.
It became a problem because the foreign makes set up shop here and had no retirement benefits to pay at all (and still don't, but will in the next decade or two). It became a huge problem because GM
shrank and life expectancy rose. Not exactly a problem that's easy to predict.
Now, I will go so far as to say that both management and the unions failed to see the writing on the wall long after it was up there and outlined in neon, but as with so many things "it seemed like a good idea at the time."
All this talk about the unions...normal distraction, dissemination, and just pure crap.
The real problem with GM and Chrysler ALWAYS and still is management. No union in this universe ever made GM have too many brands. No union in this universe forced their hands to sign a contract. Management always went into the negotiations with eyes wide open. Trying to hammer the workers at every opportunity (hence the work rules like the speed of the line and who controls it - jointly between union and management). And they never had to keep the doors open - the option was always open to just close the door and let a strike happen or even turn out the lights and go home. But no, they had the big accountants and computers that told them the cost/benefit ratios and management signed on to the deal.
And particularly how the management would get their multi-millions in bonuses and tax reduced benefits. You remember that 15% tax bill they get versus the 40% the rest of us get to pay?
It was never a union OR the engineers that design them that decided to cheapen up a GM or Chrysler car to the point where no one would want them. The engineers were told - and STILL are told today - to make it cheaper. NO OTHER POINT is anywhere near the precedence of that single one. (And yes, direct experience in this - non-union experience.)
It WAS and IS management that ran those companies into the ground. And we the taxpayers got to bail out that same management - you do remember that it was Bush who bailed out GM and Chrysler, don't you? (Probably not - selective amnesia). Lucky for us, people are buying a lot of GM now. Who knows why, since they continue down the path of arrogance and hubris they were on before. As evidenced by the new engine oil requirements of dexos oil - or your warranty is void. Ford doesn't play that crap game yet. Maybe they will if the lemmings, er, uh, people who buy GM keep on playing their game.
Hopefully we the people can sell out our stake in GM before the next crash.
And for all the young RWRE's, post-pension generation. You really have no clue about what the Republican party has done to you starting with Reagan's gutting of the pension system in this country. And replaced it with that "magical" 401k system of today. So sad.
So much ignorance about the true union versus management culpability here. The whole mind set of "unions once had their place" but are obsolete today. You WILL discover before your career ends that the mantra you live by is just another Murdochian/Rove/Cheney implant, twisting and torturing your neural paths with their lies.
Here is the real story. Again. Redistribution of wealth.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110223/ts_yblog_thelookout/separate-but-unequal-charts-show-growing-rich-poor-gap
"Wisconsin is just the first act in an unfolding tragedy in which states and municipalities across the country have promised $3.5 trillion—about a quarter of the national GDP—in pensions that they don't have the funds for. Unfunded health retirement costs are even greater. But how did we get to this point?"
http://reason.com/archives/2011/03/08/the-real-lesson-from-wisconsin
If people just died quicker all will be fine. Maybe that is why republicans are opposed to universal health care. ;D
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker blames "union bosses" for budget stalemate
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20040557-503544.html (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20040557-503544.html)
QuoteWisconsin Republican Gov. Scott Walker on Monday night said that "union bosses in D.C." were likely to blame for the stalemate he has seemingly reached with Wisconsin Democratic lawmakers over legislation that would impact union rights.
After nearly three weeks, all 14 Wisconsin Senate Democrats remain out of state to prevent a vote on Walker's so-called "budget repair bill."
Democratic leader Mark Miller yesterday sought to arrange a meeting with Walker and the state Senate Republican leader to reach a compromise over the bill, but the two Republicans rebuffed the offer. Walker called Miller's request for a meeting at the Wisconsin-Illinois border "ridiculous" and charged that Miller is "the person standing in the way of progress."
Reports over the weekend suggested that Miller and other Democrats were ready to return to Wisconsin -- even without the changes they wanted to the budget repair bill -- but Miller's letter made clear Democrats want to continue negotiations. Walker last night speculated that Miller changed his tune because of the influence of national union leaders, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports.
"I don't have this on firsthand knowledge" as to why the Democrats remain out of state, Walker said last night at a forum in Waukesha, Wisc. "My guess is [Miller] got a phone call from one of the union bosses in D.C. who said, 'You cannot go back there and let them have a vote.'"
In response to the reports about their possible return, Miller and other Democrats said yesterday that their position never changed; they said they were simply acknowledging that they will at some point in time have to go back to Wisconsin.
The Democrats are holding out for Walker to drop a provision of his budget repair bill that would largely scale back public workers' collective bargaining rights. Unions have already agreed to other parts of the bill that would scale back their benefits, but they argue that limiting collective bargaining rights will not impact the budget.
Walker and Republicans argue that limiting collective bargaining rights is an important element of the legislation that will enable local municipalities to meet budget realities.
Walker said of the Democrats last night, "Eventually, if any of them come back, this bill will pass."
Also speaking at the forum Monday, the Journal Sentinel reports, was Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett -- the Democratic gubernatorial candidate Walker defeated in 2010. Barrett who pointed out that the Senate could vote on collective bargaining rights as a standalone measure without the 14 Democrats present. Indeed, the Wisconsin Senate only needs a 20-vote quorum to pass a spending bill, so the 19 state Senate Republicans could pass non-spending legislation on their own.
"Don't hide it [in the budget-repair bill]," Barrett said. "Don't make this a Trojan horse."
He said he believes Republicans are not voting on the measure separately because it would not pass. Several polls have shown that most people in Wisconsin and elsewhere in the country agree with Democrats that union collective bargaining rights do not need to be scaled back.
Meanwhile, as the conflict drags on, liberal groups are keeping up the pressure on Republicans. The Progressive Change Campaign Committee and Democracy for America said yesterday they've raised over $525,000 online since Wednesday, when they launched a pro-union campaign. They're using the money to keep an ad on the air that blasts Walker's plan, and to assist local recall efforts against Republican lawmakers.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 08, 2011, 10:10:19 AM
If people just died quicker all will be fine. Maybe that is why republicans are opposed to universal health care. ;D
That's actually part of the end of life planning in Obamacare.
"Maw-maw, you are no longer useful to us, it's time you thought about dieing."
The "Death Panel" gang obviously have never read the law. Or had a terminally ill family member/friend who has gone through this before. They just keep pooh-poohing something that has been done informally for decades that now has a formal definition and consistent implementation.
Actually, end of life planning and information is a huge boon for anyone facing that circumstance. Too bad the RWRE just doesn't get it on yet another point.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 08, 2011, 10:08:22 AM
"Wisconsin is just the first act in an unfolding tragedy in which states and municipalities across the country have promised $3.5 trillion—about a quarter of the national GDP—in pensions that they don't have the funds for. Unfunded health retirement costs are even greater. But how did we get to this point?"
http://reason.com/archives/2011/03/08/the-real-lesson-from-wisconsin
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/06/109649/why-employee-pensions-arent-bankrupting.html
"A close look at state and local pension plans across the nation, and a comparison of them to those in the private sector, reveals a more complicated story. However, the
short answer is that there's simply no evidence that state pensions are the current burden to public finances that their critics claim.
Pension contributions from state and local employers aren't blowing up budgets. T
hey amount to just 2.9 percent of state spending, on average, according to the National Association of State Retirement Administrators. The Center for Retirement Research at Boston College puts the figure a bit higher at 3.8 percent."
Quote from: we vs us on March 08, 2011, 10:56:09 AM
Pension contributions from state and local employers aren't blowing up budgets. They amount to just 2.9 percent of state spending, on average, according to the National Association of State Retirement Administrators. The Center for Retirement Research at Boston College puts the figure a bit higher at 3.8 percent."
Yeah, but it's a good smokescreen for the other billions they keep pissing away on useless projects and cushy bureaucrat jobs for their closest friends and contributors. ;)
Quote from: we vs us on March 08, 2011, 10:56:09 AM
Pension contributions from state and local employers aren't blowing up budgets. They amount to just 2.9 percent of state spending, on average, according to the National Association of State Retirement Administrators. The Center for Retirement Research at Boston College puts the figure a bit higher at 3.8 percent."
It's the same math that lets them paint Social Security as insolvent.
Hint: any future ongoing liability will look big as a lump sum..like your mortgage, only you don't get it paid off after 30 years.
Quote from: nathanm on March 08, 2011, 01:49:37 PM
It's the same math that lets them paint Social Security as insolvent.
Hint: any future ongoing liability will look big as a lump sum..like your mortgage, only you don't get it paid off after 30 years.
So. . . .Social Security is just fine?
Quote from: Gaspar on March 08, 2011, 01:52:21 PM
So. . . .Social Security is just fine?
Yeah. Don't confuse it with Medicare, which is effed thanks to Part D. If we could fix that, our budget picture would look much better without touching anything else.
Quote from: nathanm on March 08, 2011, 01:53:32 PM
Yeah. Don't confuse it with Medicare, which is effed thanks to Part D. If we could fix that, our budget picture would look much better without touching anything else.
So, paying out more than you pay in is fine?
Quote from: Gaspar on March 08, 2011, 01:59:50 PM
So, paying out more than you pay in is fine?
No, but if all you have to do is make a modest increase of what you pay in to equal what you pay out, then the problem really isn't really a problem.
It's easy, really: increase the retirement age to 67 by the time I retire, say (which will be in 2040), and tax all income, not just up to the first $100k. That would about cover it.
Oh, and general amnesty for all undocumented workers . . . get them to start paying payroll taxes and contributing to my retirement ;)
This dialogue is all fine and good but still doesn't erase the fact teacher's pensions are completely funded by public moneys whether you want to call it "rates", "fees", "taxes", or "quid" it makes no difference, it's simply parsing.
I DO realize you have to offer good incentives to get people to take what can be a thankless job. I admit being envious I have to pay into my retirement out of personal funds unless I care to gamble on SS being available when I retire. I don't begrudge teachers for wanting to make more money and have a secure retirement. However, they have got to realize it's not the worst occupation in the world and not the worst paying for hours worked and benefits received. They also need to recognize the reality if there are limited funds to work with, they will need to make sacrifices like the rest of us have had to in these tough and uncertain economic times.
Quote from: we vs us on March 08, 2011, 02:26:02 PM
Oh, and general amnesty for all undocumented workers . . . get them to start paying payroll taxes and contributing to my retirement ;)
Payroll taxes are already collected on the ones who earn a check and aren't paid under the table. It's income tax they avoid by claiming 9 exemptions and not filing returns.
Quote from: we vs us on March 08, 2011, 02:26:02 PM
. . . and tax all income, not just up to the first $100k. That would about cover it.
So, if they tax all income, should the payout when I retire be based on the total pay in?
Say I make $300K a year, should I receive a distribution equal to my pay in?
Quote from: Gaspar on March 08, 2011, 03:09:46 PM
So, if they tax all income, should the payout when I retire be based on the total pay in?
Say I make $300K a year, should I receive a distribution equal to my pay in?
Of course not. That's not the idea. The idea is to redistribute your wealth and productivity in the name of fairness, silly.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 08, 2011, 03:28:13 PM
Of course not. That's not the idea. The idea is to redistribute your wealth and productivity in the name of fairness, silly.
You beat me to the response.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 08, 2011, 03:31:23 PM
You beat me to the response.
Besides, it will probably become illegal to earn that much at some point ;)
Quote from: Conan71 on March 08, 2011, 03:34:14 PM
Besides, it will probably become illegal to earn that much at some point ;)
Yep. Just as soon as we tax everything above $250K at 100%. No one needs that much money.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 08, 2011, 03:34:14 PM
Besides, it will probably become illegal to earn that much at some point ;)
You are probably right. Remember this gem from Obama a while back:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/04/28/obama_to_wall_street_i_do_think_at_a_certain_point_youve_made_enough_money.html
Quote from: guido911 on March 08, 2011, 03:49:32 PM
You are probably right. Remember this gem from Obama a while back:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/04/28/obama_to_wall_street_i_do_think_at_a_certain_point_youve_made_enough_money.html
The arrogance just made me throw up in my mouth a little...
Quote from: Conan71 on March 08, 2011, 03:28:13 PM
Of course not. That's not the idea. The idea is to redistribute your wealth and productivity in the name of fairness, silly.
What a brilliant scheme!
The government takes money to "safe keep" for your future, but only gives back what you or your direct relatives survive to see. Meanwhile they spend that money on monkey cigarettes, cow farts, and ethanol. Knowing full well that they will reach a point where they will have to pay back what they have taken. The whole time, they continue to kick the can down the road by reducing eligibility (to your money) and increasing liability (yours not theirs) and hoping that you and your spouse kick the bucket before margin-call.
They really Madoff like a bandit with this one! ;)
(http://reason.com/assets/mc/jtaylor/VeroSocialSecurity.jpg)
Quote from: Gaspar on March 08, 2011, 03:53:09 PM
Meanwhile they spend that money on monkey cigarettes, cow farts, and ethanol.
Don't forget the Cowboy Poetry Festival in Nevada!!!
Quote from: we vs us on March 08, 2011, 02:26:02 PM
It's easy, really: increase the retirement age to 67 by the time I retire, say (which will be in 2040),
Actually, the retirement age for full Social Security is already climbing in just a few years.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 08, 2011, 03:28:13 PM
Of course not. That's not the idea. The idea is to redistribute your wealth and productivity in the name of fairness, silly.
You say that, but current law would require that benefits increase in about 2035 were the cap removed. And yes, under current law more SS tax also means more benefits. If we can the 2035 adjustment (which would actually result in an increase for
everyone, not just the over-125k-ers) the demographic crunch would not be at all a problem.
Numerous studies have been done on this and have determined that literally the only action we need take at least for the next 15 years is the removal of the cap.
And Gaspar, the reason we're having this discussion at all is because Reagan and the Democrats agreed that nobody was willing to actually pay for all the government they wanted, thus they spent the SS money instead of saving it.
Back on the topic:
I'm not quite sure how I missed this poll: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/wisconsin/wisconsin_poll_support_for_budget_cutting_not_for_weakening_collective_bargaining_rights
It appears that the governor does not have majority support even in his own state. A majority support cutting public sector wages, but there is not majority support for the governor on the collective bargaining issue. Go figure..it's the union's position that's in line with the will of the people, unlike what a certain poster here has tried to claim.
Quote from: guido911 on March 08, 2011, 03:49:32 PM
You are probably right. Remember this gem from Obama a while back:
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/2/4/128782438635215559.jpg)
There you go
More civility from these poor, abused, and mistreated "working people". Language warning.
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=hdaGuz8z8z
Seriously, who hires these morons and why do they still have jobs after they are exposed as vile and abusive.
Union protesters in Ohio disrupt Kasich speech.
I had to laugh at the old teacher whining about her retirement (starts at 1:10). In my book, the moment you start in on the boogeyman Koch Bros., I am going to laugh at you over your stupidity.
Quote from: guido911 on March 08, 2011, 07:33:30 PM
I had to laugh at the old teacher whining about her retirement (starts at 1:10). In my book, the moment you start in on the boogeyman Koch Bros., I am going to laugh at you over your stupidity.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember you yammering on about Soros on at least one occasion.
Looks like the WI senate stripped out the collective bargaining issue out of the budget repair bill and take it up as a stand alone. This bill passed the senate and goes to the Assembly tomorrow.
http://twitter.com/BreakingNews/status/45641375936557056
I am going to hang out at dooshbag underground to watch the left's collective heads explode.
Quote from: nathanm on March 09, 2011, 06:45:12 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember you yammering on about Soros on at least one occasion.
Search my name and "Soros" to find out I guess.
Ballsy stuff, that last minute backdoor action. I think there's going to be some major fallout from this. Not sure exactly what, but it could be pretty big.
Quote from: we vs us on March 09, 2011, 07:12:37 PM
Ballsy stuff, that last minute backdoor action. I think there's going to be some major fallout from this. Not sure exactly what, but it could be pretty big.
You said "backdoor action". Beavis moment over.
I have read that there may have been a violation of the Open Meeting Act by failing to give 24 hour notice. I also understand that the AWOL dems are returning.
I did not realize Wisconsin was Poland:
Edited to add: I will say this for them..they didn't let popular opinion alter their chosen course:
Quote
Sixty-four percent of respondents, including a plurality of Republicans, say public employees should have the right to bargain collectively for their wages. Sixty-three percent, including 55 percent of Republicans, say states without enough money to pay for all the pension benefits they have promised to current retirees shouldn't be able to break those obligations.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/americans-oppose-republican-attack-on-unions-in-poll-divided-over-benefits.html
(how many times do you see nearly 2/3rds of America agree on
anything?)
Just read that the AWOL dems are staying AWOL. Noted monumental jack@ss says "This is war" after the senate vote.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/09/michael_moore_reacts_to_wisconsin_union_vote_this_is_war.html
Lots of rumors of a general strike in WI. From what I can see people have swarmed the capital in Madison.
Quote from: we vs us on March 09, 2011, 09:26:19 PM
Lots of rumors of a general strike in WI. From what I can see people have swarmed the capital in Madison.
I heard that as well. I sense that it's going to get REAL ugly up there. Getting the popcorn out.
Aren't they the cheeseheads? Living up to their name all right.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 09, 2011, 10:40:16 PM
Aren't they the cheeseheads? Living up to their name all right.
Get off the back of the unions already.
Nice try. But another swing and a miss.
Quote from: nathanm on March 09, 2011, 08:05:13 PM
I did not realize Wisconsin was Poland:
There are a LOT of people of Polish descent in WI. According to Wikipedia, WI has the largest percentage of Polish of any of the states.
Cheese heads and block heads, eh Red?
Are we talking about those wusses that took their pitiful marbles and went home rather than do what they were elected to do?
DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) - The Iowa House has approved a bill that overhauls the state's collective bargaining law and reduces workers' negotiating rights.
The bill now goes to the Senate, where it is not expected to pass. Republicans who support the bill control the House, while Democrats have a majority in the Senate.
The Iowa Senate Democrats don't seem to be fleeing the state. Probably because everyone is looking the other way. ;)
Who would want to leave Iowa?
"Wisconsin - Smell our Dairy Air"
Other states have now followed suit.
* OHIO: Ohio's bill goes farther than Wisconsin's, prohibiting collective bargaining for 42,000 state workers plus 19,500 college system workers. For local governments, bargaining with unions representing some 300,000 workers including police, firefighters, and public school teachers, the bill takes healthcare and some other benefits out of the negotiating process. It denies them the right to strike.
The bill passed the Senate March 1. The Ohio House of Representatives will hold at least one more week of hearings on the bill, according to the spokesman for Republican speaker William G. Batchelder. A date for a vote has not been set. Ohio Republican Governor John Kasich has said he supports the measure.
* IDAHO: The Idaho state legislature has approved a bill to limit collective bargaining by public school teachers. The measure restricts collective bargaining to salaries and benefits, removing from negotiations such provisions as class sizes, teacher workload and promotions. Republican Governor Butch Otter was expected to sign it into law quickly.
* IOWA: The state House of Representatives is debating a bill curbing collective bargaining rights for public workers that was passed by the labor committee. The bill would exclude health insurance from the scope of collective bargaining, along with other changes. Democrats who control the Senate said they do not intend to bring the bill up for debate.
* MICHIGAN: Both chambers of the Michigan legislature have approved measures to give the state emergency powers to break union contracts to revive failing schools and cities. There are slight differences between the bills passed by the two chambers which must be reconciled. New Republican Governor Rick Snyder has said he supports the measure.
* INDIANA: Republican state lawmakers are pushing several measures that curb organized labor influence. The state Senate passed a bill that will narrow the scope of public school teachers' collective bargaining rights. The measure still needs to be approved by the state House, but House Democrats have left the state to deny votes on bills they say restrict workers' rights. One bill would create a state-wide school voucher system.
* NEW HAMPSHIRE: A right-to-work bill that refers only to public sector workers prohibits collective bargaining agreements that require employees to join labor unions. It also says that no public employee union is required to represent employees who elect not to join or pay dues. It passed the House and next goes to the Senate. Both legislative bodies have Republican majorities, but Gov. John Lynch, a Democrat, has said he does not support the bill.
* KANSAS: The Kansas House has passed a bill that would outlaw employee payroll deductions for union dues and political action committees.
* TENNESSEE: A Republican-backed state bill would end teachers' rights to negotiate their working conditions with boards of education through collective bargaining. The bill has passed through the Senate Education Committee.
* OTHER STATES: Limits on public worker collective bargaining have been introduced in several other states as of last week, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. These include Colorado, Nebraska, Nevada, Oklahoma, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Washington, Alaska and Arizona.
The DOJ is now investigating death threats including this email sent to all Republican members of the Wisconson house.
Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes
will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain
to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it
will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit
that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for
more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.
WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in
the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me
have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that
support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing
with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand
for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave
it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the
message to you since you are so "high" on Koch and have decided that you are
now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a
demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed
in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.
This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't
tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are
not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided
to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's
necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you. Please
understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked
everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel
that it's worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives
of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and
say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!
Reply Reply to all Forward
I'ts unfortunate if this letter came from a Wisconsin teacher, not only because of the threat, but because of the massive number of misspelled words! :-\
I'm guessing it was written by the Governor's Chief of Staff to garner support.
They're still protesting in Madison. 85-100k showed up yesterday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/12/wisconsin-protesters-refu_n_834927.html
Quote from: we vs us on March 13, 2011, 11:34:54 AM
They're still protesting in Madison. 85-100k showed up yesterday.
They should be glad they are in Madison and not Libya.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 11, 2011, 04:16:39 PM
The DOJ is now investigating death threats including this email sent to all Republican members of the Wisconson house.
Do you have a link for this?
That is exactly the kind of thing Karl Rove has orchestrated repeatedly over the years. Dirty tricks. Probably has O'Keefe doing a film of it.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 11, 2011, 04:16:39 PM
The DOJ is now investigating death threats including this email sent to all Republican members of the Wisconson house.
Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes
will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks.
I'ts unfortunate if this letter came from a Wisconsin teacher, not only because of the threat, but because of the massive number of misspelled words! :-\
I looked on The Google for news stories to support this, but other than a host of bloggers and...wait for it...Fox News, there's no mainstream media coverage. I know, I know, to a dyed-in-the-wool conservative, that's because there's a 'liberal bias' in the news. Another way of looking at this is by saying that other than the right wing echo chamber, there's no credible news organization reporting on this. Bloggers - who sit in front of their computers in their boxer shorts - don't have the resources to verify the stories. They simply repeat them.
This isn't a denial that Wisconsin legislators have received death threats. It's probable that this is true. What would be
unusual would be a report of a liberal lone gunman, a mirror image of all the recent right wing nutjobs with guns.
I'll save you the time Ed. O'Keefe wrote it. Right on the back of his script from the ACORN interviews ;)
Whoa, Conan! Insight and truth in one small post! This is wonderful. I knew you could do it! Keep up the good work!
Judge Issues Restraining Order To Block Collective Bargaining Bill
http://www.channel3000.com/news/27239147/detail.html (http://www.channel3000.com/news/27239147/detail.html)
QuoteMADISON, Wis. -- A Dane County judge has issued a restraining order on Friday to block publication of the state's collective bargaining law.
Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne filed a lawsuit on Wednesday accusing Republican legislative leaders of violating Wisconsin's open meetings law during the rushed run-up to a Senate vote on the measure last week.
The legislative committee that broke a political stalemate that had kept the law in limbo for weeks met without the 24-hour notice required by Wisconsin's open meetings law. The Republican majority voted last week to pass the legislation without Senate Democrats, who had left the state to block just such a vote. The Republican-controlled Legislature subsequently passed the measure and Gov. Scott Walker signed it last week.
The law can't take effect until it's formally published, and the Democratic secretary of state said he plans to wait the full 10 days allowed to publish it March 25.
Ozanne said he wanted a judge to block publication of the law so the case can be heard before the measure takes effect.
Judge Maryann Sumi had originally scheduled a hearing for Thursday morning, but pushed it back to Friday.
Ozanne said he has as many as 20 witnesses lined up.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/morningeconomist/2011/02/21/citizens-united-may-prohibit-union-busting-by-states/
Interesting argument: collective bargaining is a form of free speech per Citizens United; hence it's unconstitutional for government to attempt to limit it.
Could the issue of Wisconsin not collecting union dues from PEUs really be the thorn in the union's side?
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/118775974.html
Quote from: guido911 on March 09, 2011, 06:45:27 PM
I am going to hang out at dooshbag underground to watch the left's collective heads explode.
And here is the head explosions per Gibson's dramatic reading.
The content was lost on me. I feel bad saying what is on everyone else's mind, but I couldn't get over how gay John Gibson looks. Are you sure he's not an Al Franken character?
Quote from: Conan71 on March 29, 2011, 09:10:45 PM
Are you sure he's not an Al Franken character?
(http://tribewithted.mlblogs.com/Hmmm.jpg)
Is that a young Darrell Issa?
That or Steve Carrell's pledge photo
Not Wisconsin but Indiana. This Indiana AWOL-er power doosh equates running from his job to a soldier going to Afghanistan.
Quote from: guido911 on April 01, 2011, 10:01:59 AM
Not Wisconsin but Indiana. This Indiana AWOL-er power doosh equates running from his job to a soldier going to Afghanistan.
And the Bronx Zoo doesn't know how the cobra escaped.
Teacher charged after giving death threats to Rs in Wisconsin:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/119023079.html
Quote from: guido911 on April 01, 2011, 10:08:19 AM
Teacher charged after giving death threats to Rs in Wisconsin:
Well obviously they're not listening to their constituents then.
Quote from: Townsend on April 01, 2011, 10:12:28 AM
Well obviously they're not listening to their constituents then.
If a teabagger had made that threat would you be trying to be cute? Nope. We would have to wrap your entire body in a Depends undergarment to contain the wetting you would be doing to yourself.
Quote from: guido911 on April 01, 2011, 10:22:51 AM
If a teabagger had made that threat would you be trying to be cute? Nope. We would have to wrap your entire body in a Depends undergarment to contain the wetting you would be doing to yourself.
You refer to them as teabaggers?
A judge took their ball away from them.
We're having more bowel movements in our own state legislature than I care to hear about. The WI news has lowered in importance to me.
Oh, and she's apparently a nutball. So yeah, I don't care. The "teabagger"s? I find their leaders to be along the same line so no, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
Now this is a strike that I am certain would go over well in this country:
QuoteThe Israeli Medical Association has announced the beginning of a doctors' strike on Tuesday. The strike, a warning measure, will last for two days, and will include the roughly 20,000 doctors working in the public system.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143326
On the other hand, maybe it wouldn't because doctors are not the "working people".
Quote from: guido911 on April 03, 2011, 03:04:20 PM
On the other hand, maybe it wouldn't because doctors are not the "working people".
What makes you say that? A lot of 'em are working stiffs.
Then there are the ones who take bribes from drug companies to prescribe expensive medications off-label or open MRI clinics and suddenly discover that all of their patients need MRIs for every little complaint so they can make a fortune fleecing Medicare and the insurance companies and drive up the cost of everybody's care. Those guys can go get stuffed.
Based on the expenditure numbers I've seen, Israel doesn't seem have many of those. Based on our numbers, I dare say half our doctors are of that sort.
Quote from: nathanm on April 03, 2011, 03:36:07 PM
What makes you say that? A lot of 'em are working stiffs.
Seriously? I agree that a "lot" are working stiffs, in particular a person very close to me. However, my gentle poke was at those who calls union members "working people", as if non-union folks with jobs are not.
Incidentally, could you just imagine if doctors formed a union, which required all doctors to join, and they went on strike over whatever (pay, tort reform) in this country? Would some people in this particular thread be speaking out on behalf of them?
Quote from: guido911 on April 03, 2011, 03:50:41 PM
Seriously? I agree that a "lot" are working stiffs, in particular a person very close to me. However, my gentle poke was at those who calls union members "working people", as if non-union folks with jobs are not.
Incidentally, could you just imagine if doctors formed a union, which required all doctors to join, and they went on strike over whatever (pay, tort reform) in this country? Would some people in this particular thread be speaking out on behalf of them?
You have to admit it's a relatively new phenomenon for licensed professionals such as yourself to consider themselves "working class."
On this subject, I consider there to be three classes: First, the chronically un/underemployed. Second, the "working stiff." Third, the ownership class. Clearly, many owners work their butts off, but they do so for far more potential gain than an employee with no ownership stake does.
BTW, sympathy strikes are already illegal. If (to use an example) ALPA has a disagreement with American and strike, Continental pilots can't legally walk out, even though they're members of the "same" union. Similarly, if doctors unionized and struck Southcrest, they couldn't walk out at St. Francis. Of course, these days it seems doctors are rarely employees of the hospital anyway, so unionization makes little sense. (at least that's my understanding, feel free to correct me)
It makes no more sense than me unionizing me myself and I and striking..myself. Of course, now that I think about it, doctors do have a "union". It's called the AMA and they artificially restrict the supply of doctors.
That's not to say that I don't think there are definite advantages in the "doctors as employees" model found in many countries. I think it's generally unwise to have the guy ordering the procedures or prescribing the medicine getting a cut of the procedures or the medicine. It seems obvious to me that a doctor who was on the fence about ordering an MRI or a CT or whatever would probably order the procedure if it's in his financial interest to do so, whereas without that financial incentive, his decision would be solely based on what's best for the patient.
And some people might find this interesting. Others will probably lose their smile over it:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/146921/Americans-Back-Unions-Governors-State-Disputes.aspx
Quote from: guido911 on April 03, 2011, 03:50:41 PM
Incidentally, could you just imagine if doctors formed a union, which required all doctors to join, and they went on strike over whatever (pay, tort reform) in this country? Would some people in this particular thread be speaking out on behalf of them?
Yes.
You've built a lovely closetful of strawmen, there. Who do you have in mind when you say "some in particular?"
Quote from: we vs us on April 04, 2011, 10:10:01 AM
Yes.
You've built a lovely closetful of strawmen, there. Who do you have in mind when you say "some in particular?"
Those folks probably know who I am referring to. But since you weighed in, would you support a physician's strike if they were aggrieved over pay/benefits?
Nate, according to this article, the AMA only represents less than 20% of practicing docs.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35055
Quote from: guido911 on April 04, 2011, 02:58:49 PM
But since you weighed in, would you support a physician's strike if they were aggrieved over pay/benefits?
Yep. Not because I think they deserve it but because I believe it's their right.
Quote from: guido911 on April 04, 2011, 02:58:49 PM
Nate, according to this article, the AMA only represents less than 20% of practicing docs.
Interesting.
Turns out I was wrong about AMA being solely responsible for limiting the number of residency slots available. It's actually ACGME that makes the decisions on that, and AMA representatives only make up a fifth of their board. (according to wikipedia, anyway)
Quote from: we vs us on April 04, 2011, 03:58:58 PM
Yep. Not because I think they deserve it but because I believe it's their right.
Well since you framed your response in that way, if they did form union and the docs wanted to strike, would it be "deserved"?
I know that this post is a bit awkward.
Quote from: guido911 on April 04, 2011, 04:19:27 PM
Well since you framed your response in that way, if they did form union and the docs wanted to strike, would it be "deserved"?
I know that this post is a bit awkward.
Honestly I think all workers should have the ability to organize and they should be able to strike. I personally don't think doctors are the most aggrieved workers out there, and I don't necessarily know who some would strike against (I'm not thinking of the docs who work at hospitals but more the docs who have their own practices), but in theory they should be able to organize.
Why shouldn't they?
Quote from: we vs us on April 04, 2011, 04:52:30 PM
Honestly I think all workers should have the ability to organize and they should be able to strike. I personally don't think doctors are the most aggrieved workers out there, and I don't necessarily know who some would strike against (I'm not thinking of the docs who work at hospitals but more the docs who have their own practices), but in theory they should be able to organize.
Why shouldn't they?
They should be able to organize, but I do see it happening all that soon.
Quote from: we vs us on April 04, 2011, 04:52:30 PM
and I don't necessarily know who some would strike against
I think most doctors are "employed" by insurance companies. If your insurance breaks it out, look at the list price vs. what the doctors agreed to take.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/son-of-wisc-donor-gets-plum-job/nepotism/# (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/son-of-wisc-donor-gets-plum-job/nepotism/#)
Son of Wisc. Donor Gets Plum Job
QuoteThere are two ways to get a job in government: hard work, and the old-fashioned way—nepotism. A report from Wisconsin suggests that the son of a major donor to GOP Gov. Scott Walker may have benefited from the latter. Despite being a college dropout with two DUIs and little or no relevant experience, twentysomething Brian Deschane scored a $81,500 gig overseeing environmental and regulatory matters and dozens of employees. He's even received a 26 percent raise during his two-month tenure. "It doesn't look like he's ever had a real job," sniped Democratic Rep. Brett Hulsey, one of the critics who points out that Deschane's father Jerry gave almost $122,000 to Walker's campaign. The elder Deschane says his son got the job on his own. Walker has waged war against public-employee unions, saying that their compensation is bleeding the Badger State dry.
Read it at Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
Reads a little like Fox but I thought I'd throw it out there
Yeah, it's pretty bad. Walker apparently can't decide whether the state is broke or not.
I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the point is to get the most incompetent people he can find so he can later point out how crappy a job the government agencies are doing.
Looks like pay back started. Prosser would have won in a landslide like he always DID.
Walker a gift to the dims in the Midwest especially. Kasich won't hurt....
Kloppenburg declares victory
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/119347799.html
http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2011/04/06/kloppenburg_declares_victory_in_wisconsin/index.html Sconsin voters turn left!
It's not a done deal. It is nonetheless a stunning result, in all its implications. ;)
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 06, 2011, 04:53:12 PM
Looks like pay back started. Prosser would have won in a landslide like he always DID.
Walker a gift to the dims in the Midwest especially. Kasich won't hurt....
Kloppenburg declares victory
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/119347799.html
http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2011/04/06/kloppenburg_declares_victory_in_wisconsin/index.html Sconsin voters turn left!
It's not a done deal. It is nonetheless a stunning result, in all its implications. ;)
Whoa there aox, this just in:
QuoteMadison - In a political bombshell, the clerk in a Republican stronghold is set to release new vote totals giving 8,000 votes in the state Supreme Court race back toward Justice David Prosser, swinging the race significantly in his favor.
The Waukesha County clerk's office has told state elections officials that they will be adjusting the vote totals to give incumbent David Prosser more than 7,000 new votes, said Mike Haas, staff attorney for the state Government Accountability Board.
"Waukesha will be adjusting their vote totals by 14,000," Haas said the Accountability Board was told.
The numbers will add some 11,000 votes for Prosser and some 3,000 for Kloppenburg, he said. Haas said the Accountability Board was not giving a reason for the change, but more details are expected soon from Waukesha County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus.
The new numbers may provide some clarity to a race that had appeared to be headed toward the first statewide recount in two decades and as well spring a new surprise on a state that had already faced two months of chaotic politics. But the numbers also seemed almost certain to inject new controversy into an already heated race.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/119410124.html
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSuooqXAJy8GfksYBZdvanqI7sWSNyLo97ryBHXeiP4aQIF9NSHjQ)
This election is far from over I'm afraid. But it did show how the dems/union folks can mobilize.
I never said it was over. Last election she had %23 of the vote. Big changes in the making for Teabaggers/GOP.
FYI, the vote totals in the Wisconsin Supreme Court race swung back and forth today, first with incumbent Justice David Prosser taking the lead, then with challenger JoAnne Kloppenburg taking it back by 125 votes.
Read up: http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/04/wisconsin-recall-campaigns-bag-record-number-signatures
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 07, 2011, 07:03:49 PM
I never said it was over. Last election she had %23 of the vote
You quoted an article wherein Kloppenburg declared victory, though. Incidentally, heads be exploding over at DU. (language warning, although its a given):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4805394
Just listen to, whatever this is:
Son of Wisc donor - no surprise there. Same thing happened with George Bush, only on a much bigger scale. Daddy got him a baseball team with a $600,000 loan he never had to repay.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 07, 2011, 08:24:50 PM
Son of Wisc donor - no surprise there. Same thing happened with George Bush, only on a much bigger scale. Daddy got him a baseball team with a $600,000 loan he never had to repay.
(http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/strawman.jpg)
Quote from: guido911 on April 07, 2011, 08:28:19 PM
(http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/strawman.jpg)
Now why I've never thought of that is beyond me.
Hillarious. Why waste the key strokes of a reply when a Googled image works 20 times better?
Ahhhhh...how cute!! Self portraits of twins!!
That is just too cool!!
Did you all draw them yourselves?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 07, 2011, 08:24:50 PM
Son of Wisc donor - no surprise there. Same thing happened with George Bush, only on a much bigger scale. Daddy got him a baseball team with a $600,000 loan he never had to repay.
Your parents
never gave you anything? How much is always relative to how deep the pockets are.
Quote from: guido911 on April 07, 2011, 06:06:19 PM
Whoa there aox, this just in:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/119410124.html
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSuooqXAJy8GfksYBZdvanqI7sWSNyLo97ryBHXeiP4aQIF9NSHjQ)
This election is far from over I'm afraid. But it did show how the dems/union folks can mobilize.
That sure sounds like a bad movie. "oh wait, we forgot these ballots over here."
BREAKING: Prosser Up by 7000+ in WI Supreme Court Race After 'Bookkeeping Error' Discovered by Controversial Clerk in Republican Waukesha County Another Republican Theft of An Election? It's Deja Vu All Over Again.
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8456
"It's not a done deal. It is nonetheless a stunning result, in all its implications. " fotd?
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 07, 2011, 10:47:41 PM
BREAKING: Prosser Up by 7000+ in WI Supreme Court Race After 'Bookkeeping Error' Discovered by Controversial Clerk in Republican Waukesha County Another Republican Theft of An Election? It's Deja Vu All Over Again.
The Republicans have finally learned from the Democrats how elections are won.
;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on April 07, 2011, 10:51:20 PM
The Republicans have finally learned from the Democrats how elections are won.
;D
The low tech version of the Diebold Factor. Good old fashioned cheating and lying. And where, pray, did she find those neglected votes? In her rear end? Yes, it worked for bushwa and his dick twice, it may work once again. Let's lie us to victory, repubies. Keep on lying. A lie, when repeated often...shades of Florida 2000. ;D
Quote from: Townsend on April 07, 2011, 10:26:07 PM
That sure sounds like a bad movie. "oh wait, we forgot these ballots over here."
Oh good grief, you cannot be not on the DU side of this. Should I bust out the industrial strength bond pic?
Quote from: guido911 on April 07, 2011, 11:12:56 PM
Oh good grief, you cannot be not on the DU side of this. Should I bust out the industrial strength bond pic?
Wow, an entire town went uncounted and now Prosser is 7k votes up, after trading back and forth a couple hundred all day. Hope someone saved those spreadsheets.
Union thugs keep losing ballot boxes.
They're in the trunk next to the Chicago typewriter.
RA,
Sure they did - gave me plenty!! A good work ethic, sense of personal responsibility, respect for rule of law, an unspoiled character (as in W; spoiled little alcoholic, coke addict rich brat), respect for others and tolerance for people's differences.
As far as deeper pockets, well there are "rules" that apply to some but not others. One of those relates to gift taxes. The gift of $600,000 to 'buy' a baseball team (gifted by another person - not daddy) would not necessarily trigger. Maybe. How wonderful this country is that lets the spoiled little alcoholic, coke addict rich brat be given that gift and then have the opportunity to sell that gift for hundreds of millions of dollars! Like Yakoff Smirnoff says..."is this a great country, or what"??
I guess I was just accidentally born into the wrong family....NOT!
Quote from: guido911 on April 07, 2011, 11:12:56 PM
Oh good grief, you cannot be not on the DU side of this. Should I bust out the industrial strength bond pic?
Easy now killer. I was just pointing out the feeling of Taylor Machine = Koch Machine with the surprise.
Uh oh
http://thislandpress.com/04/08/2011/union-busting/ (http://thislandpress.com/04/08/2011/union-busting/)
QuoteThe days may be numbered for Tulsa's Union Public School system. In the wake of recent anti-union sentiment that is sweeping through the upper midwest, Republican lawmakers in Oklahoma are hoping to take dead aim at any entity identifying itself as a union.
A State House Committee has started work on legislation that could dismantle Union High School by this summer. In a narrow vote earlier this week, the House General Government Committee voted to repeal the Municipal Employees Collective Bargaining Act in an effort to weaken and disband unions in Oklahoma. Although the legislation is aimed at labor unions, some representatives are hopeful that Union High School will also be affected. The author of the bill, Republican Representative Mel Stetson of Bartlesville, commented on Thursday that the timing of this legislation has nothing to do with the political turmoil caused by similar lawmaking in Wisconsin.
"Truth be told, I've been thinking about dismantling unions since late last year, when Union High School beat the Bruins for the 10th year in a row," said Stetson. "It's time we stood up to the Unions of the world."
I remember when I was a kid and heard mention of Union High School, I always envisioned a bunch of kids smoking cigarettes and screwing in bolts on an assembly line.
Turns out, it's a pretty good school. ;)
Perhaps another reason why unions are in the cross hairs (oops, sorry about my incivility)
http://blog.eyeblast.tv/2011/04/union-threatens-16-year-old-grocery-worker/
Quote from: guido911 on April 08, 2011, 03:48:26 PM
Perhaps another reason why unions are in the cross hairs (oops, sorry about my incivility)
http://blog.eyeblast.tv/2011/04/union-threatens-16-year-old-grocery-worker/
Never quite get why you are always defending corporations. We are definitely wired differently.
Conservatives, What the Heck is Wrong With You?" That's a lot of chaos and many of us react more profoundly to it. One explanation: researchers say conservatives and liberals have physically different brains."
http://omnipotentpoobah.com/2011/04/09/conservatives-what-the-heck-is-wrong-with-you/
I'm not commenting on the 16 year old bring threatened. I fo find it interesting that employers cab threaten you to not join/create a union but if a union does the opposite it's horrific. They are both threats for your job.
More union dooshbaggery on display.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/119434564.html?tab=video
"This is our House" Blah blah blah.
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 09, 2011, 01:51:09 PM
Never quite get why you are always defending corporations. We are definitely wired differently.
Who signs the paycheck? I don't belong to a Union so for all I know, the Union signs the paychecks. (But I doubt it.)
RA,
The remaining unions are the only thing that keep your non-union paycheck as big as it is. And your vacation time. And your insurance program. Otherwise, you would be working for $2.75 per hour like all the illegals with NO leverage.
You know its true! So you ARE getting the benefit riding on the back of. All of us are except Guido. He gets to ride.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 10, 2011, 08:33:09 AM
RA,
The remaining unions are the only thing that keep your non-union paycheck as big as it is. And your vacation time. And your insurance program. Otherwise, you would be working for $2.75 per hour like all the illegals with NO leverage.
You know its true! So you ARE getting the benefit riding on the back of. All of us are except Guido. He gets to ride.
I freely admit that Unions in the past have enabled such things as the (nominal) 40 hr work week, vacations, insurance etc. I have even said that 100 years ago, I would have been a union guy. But not now.
The workforce is a lot more mobile than it used to be. Companies had better pay reasonable compensation packages or they won't have good employees. There will always be some companies that try to treat their employees like slaves and they deserve the unions they get. Better yet, let them pay what they want and the employees will go elsewhere.
Quote from: guido911 on April 09, 2011, 02:30:24 PM
More union dooshbaggery on display.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/119434564.html?tab=video
"This is our House" Blah blah blah.
Actually, it's a Koch
hose house!
RA,
Geez... step away from the Kool Aid!!!
It still applies today. As recently as this afternoon. (Wisconsin. John Pickle company.)
If there were any competition in the compensation package for worker bees, you wouldn't see every corporation you know about doing a "comparative analysis of compensation packages". That is code work for price fixing, just wrapped in a pretty sugar coated dough with a tasty juicy center. Kind of like those donuts that Daylight has - cream cheese or raspberry center. Yum!
And the second part of the chant is that there is NO cola (cost of living adjustment), but isn't it interesting how "merit raises" average mostly across the board just slightly behind the official rate of inflation?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 10, 2011, 08:41:39 PM
RA,
Geez... step away from the Kool Aid!!!
It still applies today. As recently as this afternoon. (Wisconsin. John Pickle company.)
If there were any competition in the compensation package for worker bees, you wouldn't see every corporation you know about doing a "comparative analysis of compensation packages". That is code work for price fixing, just wrapped in a pretty sugar coated dough with a tasty juicy center. Kind of like those donuts that Daylight has - cream cheese or raspberry center. Yum!
And the second part of the chant is that there is NO cola (cost of living adjustment), but isn't it interesting how "merit raises" average mostly across the board just slightly behind the official rate of inflation?
Let me know when you stop drinking the Union Kool-Aid.
I have been in union for a short time ("The Brotherhood" - IBEW) and have been mostly OUT of unions. Have had to deal with them in New Jersey, Detroit, New York City, and Boston. Yeah, that can be a less than satisfying experience from time to time - ok, yeah, it can be a pain in the butt.
But the truth is still the truth. You wouldn't have anywhere near what you do have - and more importantly, you would have lost a lot more than you have lost in recent years - without them!
Kind of a side question; do you really believe the "comparative analysis of compensation packages" story?? (Maybe I should try to hire you and find a place in the organization. We seem to have enough in common, it might be fun. Certainly interesting, if nothing else.)
My company is purposely a non-union shop in a very union-dominated industry. The founder of the company was a union guy himself learning the trade in Chicago. When he formed his own company, he didn't want thugs telling him how he would run his business and he had a poor taste in his mouth for some of the nefarious places union dues wind up.
The guys in our shop are paid very close to their unionized peers with one clear advantage: no union dues. They also get great bennies.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 11, 2011, 08:39:45 AM
My company is purposely a non-union shop in a very union-dominated industry. The founder of the company was a union guy himself learning the trade in Chicago. When he formed his own company, he didn't want thugs telling him how he would run his business and he had a poor taste in his mouth for some of the nefarious places union dues wind up.
The guys in our shop are paid very close to their unionized peers with one clear advantage: no union dues. They also get great bennies.
They get speed....I bet that increases production..... ;D
Quote from: Conan71 on April 11, 2011, 08:39:45 AM
My company is purposely a non-union shop in a very union-dominated industry. The founder of the company was a union guy himself learning the trade in Chicago. When he formed his own company, he didn't want thugs telling him how he would run his business and he had a poor taste in his mouth for some of the nefarious places union dues wind up.
The guys in our shop are paid very close to their unionized peers with one clear advantage: no union dues. They also get great bennies.
If the industry is union dominated, wouldn't they realistically set the wage floor for all workers, even in non-union shops? I'd think your boss would have to match union pay to attract quality workers.
Quote from: we vs us on April 11, 2011, 10:10:21 AM
If the industry is union dominated, wouldn't they realistically set the wage floor for all workers, even in non-union shops? I'd think your boss would have to match union pay to attract quality workers.
Nope, that's not how it works in this market. There are comparatively few union welders, fitters, and fabricators in Tulsa which are the sorts of jobs we provide. Supply and demand is what helps determine wage here. Tulsa has had a chronic shortage of employable (can pass a piss test, good transportation, etc) welder/fitter types for at least five years. Tulsa's large base of heat exchanger manufacturing ensures pretty stable employment and great wages for non-union manufacturing employees.
In a right to work state, the free market determines wages, not unions. States with good economies and sensible immigration policies which help protect jobs for legal guest workers and citizens will have very competitive wages because companies necessarily must offer great bennies and pay to get the best workers. All employing union workers guarantees is that you will fill the positions with whomever the union wants to use. Sure there are great workers in the union pool. But there are also crappy ones who can file grievances and stall as long as possible prior to being fired. A company can fire a non-union slacker or trouble-maker and provide a good job to a good worker a whole lot easier without a union.
Guys who work for the union hall might get sent out on a large project for 8-12 months then sit idle for a few months waiting for the union to send them back out. A friend of mine is a union heating and air guy (large commercial chillers & boilers) in OKC. He refuses to work for non-union shops so he finally gave up and started teaching at a tech for lower wages. There just aren't that many union shops in Oklahoma. Good chiller and boiler techs can make great wages without the assistance of a union.
And when I referred to our industry as being very union-dominated, I was speaking to it on a nationwide basis. The union involvement locally is the local union hall which contracts out for large power plant projects around the country or temporary help on some local piping projects. It functions somewhat as a temp agency with benefits for it's members.
The coming and going of companies is kind of strange in heat exchangers. There are some that are rock solid, then others that are in and out before you can blink.
The shortage exists because of the lower wages. I know a couple guys, one who went to Minnesota (of all places!) and one to Texas. Both doing better in real terms than here. Goes to the point of all the different people (family/friends) who have left this state for better opportunities elsewhere. All do better in real terms than here taking into account ALL of the other factors that constitute cost of living. One was working at local company in T and OKC, at least until they got bought out recently. Still waiting to see how that goes. He makes a weld bead in stainless tubing (oilfield coolers) that would make you cry for joy!
I was department manager of local company for a while with a boss (President) who actually bragged to me how cheap he was able to get some engineers. (You can imagine what I thought about that...) Well, it didn't last long and EVERY penny he saved, plus about an extra 60% is what it cost him due to turnovers.
Good welders/fitters/fabricators who aren't locked down to Tulsa by family or some other very extreme circumstance are in Houston, Midland, Louisiana. Or just somewhere else. (NO, that doesn't mean we don't have good people - we have great people. It means they are stuck here or have a life/values calculation where money is way down the list.)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 11, 2011, 01:08:56 PM
I was department manager of local company for a while with a boss (President) who actually bragged to me how cheap he was able to get some engineers. (You can imagine what I thought about that...) Well, it didn't last long and EVERY penny he saved, plus about an extra 60% is what it cost him due to turnovers.
Sounds like the system works.
Wisconsin redux in California?
http://www.eiaonline.com/CTAStateofEmergencyPlan.pdf
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t277/i8uPhZRT/not_this_shit_again.jpg)
Would they just tax the rich more and move on already?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 11, 2011, 01:08:56 PM
The coming and going of companies is kind of strange in heat exchangers. There are some that are rock solid, then others that are in and out before you can blink.
The shortage exists because of the lower wages. I know a couple guys, one who went to Minnesota (of all places!) and one to Texas. Both doing better in real terms than here. Goes to the point of all the different people (family/friends) who have left this state for better opportunities elsewhere. All do better in real terms than here taking into account ALL of the other factors that constitute cost of living. One was working at local company in T and OKC, at least until they got bought out recently. Still waiting to see how that goes. He makes a weld bead in stainless tubing (oilfield coolers) that would make you cry for joy!
I was department manager of local company for a while with a boss (President) who actually bragged to me how cheap he was able to get some engineers. (You can imagine what I thought about that...) Well, it didn't last long and EVERY penny he saved, plus about an extra 60% is what it cost him due to turnovers.
Good welders/fitters/fabricators who aren't locked down to Tulsa by family or some other very extreme circumstance are in Houston, Midland, Louisiana. Or just somewhere else. (NO, that doesn't mean we don't have good people - we have great people. It means they are stuck here or have a life/values calculation where money is way down the list.)
Certainly wages are less in Tulsa than other areas. Welders who want to be in Tulsa stay here and work here. The companies here compete for the best welders and pay a very good wage for our cost and standard of living here. They can also get lots of overtime and if they have their own equipment can moonlight and make good cash under the table. Tulsa is a good place to live and work.
A really good welder can get damn near wealthy if they are willing to endure dangerous or inhospitable conditions. Pipeline welders willing to work in the arctic or a war zone will make astounding money. It's all in what someone is willing to endure. Working in the humidity of the Gulf Coast or Midland, Tx as a welder and dealing with all the other issues of larger cities or smaller towns factors in to the higher wages paid in those areas. The higher money paid oftentimes is in lieu of more ideal working conditions. That can be said of many different trades.
There are always considerations. Like working on the north slope - wow! I would love that! Two weeks on, two weeks off. Incredible money, transportation home every two weeks. And they can make change so you have a couple of $1 bills for the plane ride home!! (Inside story - to see if anyone recognizes the reference.) It just don't get any better than that!!
Houston, and up and down the coast is not at all bad for some people. Makes me miserable, but have several friends who love the heat and the humidity! One wears a light jacket ALL the time through the summer. Go figure. Heaven and a better paycheck than here, too! He will never be back. Our loss, Texas gain.
RA,
Yeah, for a while it worked. Except he never learned anything from it and continues to this day. If I were on the board, I would be asking why the overall cost of talent was so much more than those comparative compensation surveys show it should be. And then I would fire his donkey! But, hey, that's just me and my bad attitude!
Hilarious. Funny how the tide turned and the Teabaggers are all washed up.
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 17, 2011, 02:01:41 PM
Hilarious. Funny how the tide turned and the Teabaggers are all washed up.
Shot from the neanderthal pit, obviously. I see
Gov. Palin still has the liberal's panties in a twist.
I think she's (or Tina's) our best hope for another landslide!
The Tea Party has made old-time libertarians like Ron Paul seem more respectable.
Oh, and you might want to get your tax receipt, that way you can have some factual basis for debating what we might consider cutting...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/tax-receipt
Union protesters. I think we have a forum policeman sighting (about as bright and dooshy, but more articulate)
Quote from: guido911 on April 18, 2011, 07:51:30 PM
Union protesters. I think we have a forum policeman sighting (about as bright and dooshy, but more articulate)
I think we have an AW sighting!
Quote from: Hoss on April 18, 2011, 08:28:21 PM
I think we have an AW sighting!
^^^^^
You see? There's my proof for ya. WHAT A LOSER...
Quote from: guido911 on April 18, 2011, 08:38:12 PM
^^^^^
You see? There's my proof for ya. WHAT A LOSER...
Ha! Milestone, first time he's direct quoted me in two years! Mission accomplished!
Oh, and for the record, Tony. I could really not care what you think of me. It only matters to me if I respect you....so keep on with the ad-hom dropping. You just continue to prove my point.
Quote from: Hoss on April 18, 2011, 10:17:35 PM
Ha! Milestone, first time he's direct quoted me in two years! Mission accomplished!
Reward yourself with a Marshall's.
Quote from: Red Arrow on April 18, 2011, 10:28:23 PM
Reward yourself with a Marshall's.
Superb suggestion! Have two Reds left in the fridge. Time to restock!
Quote from: Hoss on April 18, 2011, 10:33:37 PM
Superb suggestion! Have two Reds left in the fridge. Time to restock!
Sorry for the thread drift but Marshall's Law has been invoked.
That's a great brew.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 18, 2011, 11:06:15 PM
Sorry for the thread drift but Marshall's Law has been invoked.
That's a great brew.
Yes having my second one now I'm going to have to make a beer run tomorrow
Here comes the recount.
Oh my, take a look at 13 seconds of pure joy when she was asked if she still thought she was the winner (around 1:30).
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNx4fI9Tf3mCb1OZaxBvk9plFJVlKg4SjOY-nGaHtW_3mMGykA)
Quote from: Hoss on April 18, 2011, 11:11:17 PM
Yes having my second one now I'm going to have to make a beer run tomorrow
Kind of like Lay's Potato Chips, can't drink just one.
She'll win the recount. There will be proof of voter fraud....wait and see.
According to the LA Times, California may be next.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-poll-pensions-20110425,0,2397255.story
4 Rep & 3 Dem recall petitions filed in Wisconsin.
http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/265373/quick-update-wisconsin-recalls
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/us/27wisconsin.html/?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/us/27wisconsin.html/?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes)
QuoteJudge Strikes Down Wisconsin Law Curbing Unions
Quote from: Townsend on May 26, 2011, 03:43:53 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/us/27wisconsin.html/?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/us/27wisconsin.html/?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes)
Waiting for the response from catbox in 3...2....1
Quote from: Hoss on May 26, 2011, 04:21:16 PM
Waiting for the response from catbox in 3...2....1
Which one is catbox? Is that the guy on the cruise or the german cabbage? :P
Kloppy concedes to Prosser.
http://www.channel3000.com/politics/28079260/detail.html
Quote from: guido911 on May 31, 2011, 12:20:35 PM
Kloppy concedes to Prosser.
http://www.channel3000.com/politics/28079260/detail.html
"Whoa, wait a tic...where'd these 14,000 votes come from?"
Wasn't that amazing?
The county clerk from one county installed her own software to count ballots, despite a state court ruling she could not. Then she found 14,000 ballots after the election was over.
She refused to allow state election officials access to her software, then when forced to do a recount, asked for weeks of extensions to actually count.
The power is not voting, but counting votes.
She brought them all up from Florida.
I'm curious how a machine count can be that far off, unless it's intensional. How do you just "find" uncounted ballots?
The recount cost the tax payers over $250,000 because they had to go back and count every vote and match it to a registration signature.
They should make her pay for it.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSqTO2vU2jn_PGVOg8HIaWR3wMssWQQ5TiHnTMFPoS3TCvjBEb2)
It's Tennessee's turn.
QuoteTo fix public schools, you have to control public schools.
And there's little control when teachers unions, with their self-serving agendas, question every cost-cutting proposal and reform on the table.
That's why so many state governments have taken swift action to limit the power of organized labor in public schools. Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, Idaho and Michigan were the first, and Tennessee added itself to the list on Wednesday.
Tennessee Gov. Bill Haslam affixed his signature on House Bill 130 and Senate Bill 113, ending collective bargaining and giving local school boards the full authority to operate their districts in the manner they choose.
http://biggovernment.com/kolson/2011/06/05/tennessee-trumps-wisconsin-kills-teacher-collective-bargaining-dead/
tee-hee.
Terrific. Union bozos and other assorted dooshnozzles protest at a Special Olympics event.
Quote from: guido911 on June 08, 2011, 04:59:19 PM
Terrific. Union bozos and other assorted dooshnozzles protest at a Special Olympics event.
They thought it was the Governor and state congress.
Quote from: Townsend on June 08, 2011, 05:02:58 PM
They thought it was the Governor and state congress.
And I thought they were doing their best "Westboro Baptist Church" impersonation. I just cannot believe the sheer thoughtlessness of some people.
Has it really come to this in Wisconsin?
Wisconsin Supreme Court reverses Sumi. Law restricting collective bargaining and government not collecting unions dues goes forward.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/123859034.html
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the face of the modern left--bracketed by a lock to a pole.
(http://media.jsonline.com/images/199*265/mjs-wiprotests.jpg)
The Dims true colors always come out...... ;D
QuoteWhile Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's (R) law dismantling collective bargaining rights has harmed teachers, nurses, and other civil servants, it's helping a different group in Wisconsinites — inmates. Prisoners are now taking up jobs that used to be held by unionized workers in some parts of the state.
As the Madison Capital Times reports, "Besides losing their right to negotiate over the percentage of their paycheck that will go toward health care and retirement, unions also lost the ability to claim work as a 'union-only' job, opening the door for private workers and evidently even inmates to step in and take their place." Inmates are not paid for their work, but may receive time off of their sentences.
The law went into effect last week, and Racine County is already using inmates to do landscaping, painting, and another basic maintenance around the county that was previously done by county workers. The union had successfully sued to stop the country from using prison labor for these jobs last year, but with Walker's new law, they have no recourse.
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/07/06/261319/scott-walker-prison-labor/
Always nice to see people working for no pay. That's really going to help the standard of living in this country.
Quote from: nathanm on July 06, 2011, 07:34:58 PM
Always nice to see people working for no pay. That's really going to help the standard of living in this country.
...and then there's that pesky Thirteenth Amendment thing to overturn next.
According to the article, there is a quid pro quo (possibly less jail time). And what about at present, where we have as part of a plea to stay out of jail or a conviction, community service such as picking up trash. Is that slave labor too? Saw this picture on DU characterizing Walker, which is kinda funny:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOs6V_zk-i4QjndSkWez1QohasSjaC8psrK678r1XNmK0lFilL)
Quote from: nathanm on July 06, 2011, 07:34:58 PM
Always nice to see people working for no pay. That's really going to help the standard of living in this country.
Meh. They get three hots and a cot, running water, TV. All paid for by the state. Most prison industry jobs pay very little.
This is a wise use of inmate labor.
Quote from: guido911 on July 06, 2011, 08:21:49 PM
According to the article, there is a quid pro quo (possibly less jail time). And what about at present, where we have as part of a plea to stay out of jail or a conviction, community service such as picking up trash. Is that slave labor too? Saw this picture on DU characterizing Walker, which is kinda funny:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOs6V_zk-i4QjndSkWez1QohasSjaC8psrK678r1XNmK0lFilL)
"I'd like to think that the last thing that went through his head,
other than that bullet, was to wonder how the hell Andy Dufresne ever got the best of him."
One of the best movies, ever. A line in that movie literally changed my life at a point it could get no lower: "Get busy living or get busy dying."
Quote from: Conan71 on July 06, 2011, 10:59:57 PM
"I'd like to think that the last thing that went through his head, other than that bullet, was to wonder how the hell Andy Dufresne ever got the best of him."
One of the best movies, ever. A line in that movie literally changed my life at a point it could get no lower: "Get busy living or get busy dying."
Agreed. It's one of my top three at any given time. If it's on one of the premium channels, there's a good chance I'm burning the rest of the evening watching it. how Tim Robbins wasn't nominated for that role is beyond me. I know Morgan deserved the nod, but this is the nadir of Tim's acting career.
Quote from: Hoss on July 06, 2011, 11:26:28 PM
Agreed. It's one of my top three at any given time. If it's on one of the premium channels, there's a good chance I'm burning the rest of the evening watching it. how Tim Robbins wasn't nominated for that role is beyond me. I know Morgan deserved the nod, but this is the nadir of Tim's acting career.
Must..resist..urge..to..disagree...Okay. My "pain and recovery" PT medicine for my right elbow is to blame with agreeing with our forum cop (it is a weak excuse and intentionally laughable). But I have to agree with him. A great jab at Walker.
edited.
Quote from: guido911 on July 06, 2011, 11:34:55 PM
Must..resist..urge..to..disagree... My "pain and recovery" medicine for my right elbow is to blame with the cop, but I have to agree. A great story and interpretation.
Just the thought of having to crawl down that pipe gives me the heebees...
Quote from: Hoss on July 06, 2011, 11:39:03 PM
Just the thought of having to crawl down that pipe gives me the heebees...
Olive branch snapped. Thank you,
Quote from: Hoss on July 06, 2011, 11:39:03 PM
Just the thought of having to crawl down that pipe gives me the heebees...
Thank you. And to those that listen to you.
Quote from: guido911 on July 06, 2011, 11:50:02 PM
Olive branch snapped. Thank you,
Because of the sewer pipe?
Quote from: guido911 on June 17, 2011, 12:45:06 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the face of the modern left--bracketed by a lock to a pole.
(http://media.jsonline.com/images/199*265/mjs-wiprotests.jpg)
She should have tried this in Yellowstone.....
Quote from: guido911 on July 07, 2011, 12:47:19 PM
And here's Kirk.
Go Kirk.
Are you confused about the movie reference?
Quote from: Townsend on July 07, 2011, 02:43:09 PM
Go Kirk.
Are you confused about the movie reference?
Why would I? I introduced that movie to this thread. Read my post that our cop quoted and responded to. Seriously, are you 2 related or something?
Must be the pain meds.
Quote from: guido911 on July 07, 2011, 02:53:53 PM
Why would I? I introduced that movie to this thread. Read my post that our cop quoted and responded to. Seriously, are you 2 related or something?
Srsly?
Wow. I hope potential clients don't read your ramblings. They won't be potential any more.
http://www.thewashingtoncurrent.com/2011/07/washington-democrats-put-up-2nd-ad-in.html
"It's a simple ad, with a simple story, about a career GOP politician's misplaced priorities," Winston adds.
I wonder what these vermin are gearing up for? http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8611
I guess those education-concerned teachers that walked off the job, shutting down schools, and dragging their students to protest with them have a higher ground to stand on. ::)
Quote from: guido911 on July 17, 2011, 06:36:53 PM
I guess those education-concerned teachers that walked off the job, shutting down schools, and dragging their students to protest with them have a higher ground to stand on. ::)
I think it's time that government operated more like a large business. They should simply fire all those expensive, whining teachers and replace them with Mexicans, Filipinos, and Chinese. Imagine the money it would save!
Quote from: Ed W on July 17, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
I think it's time that government operated more like a large business. They should simply fire all those expensive, whining teachers and replace them with Mexicans, Filipinos, and Chinese. Imagine the money it would save!
Now you're getting it. ;D
Quote from: Ed W on July 17, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
I think it's time that government operated more like a large business. They should simply fire all those expensive, whining teachers and replace them with Mexicans, Filipinos, and Chinese. Imagine the money it would save!
They do a pretty good job at roofing, lawn care, upholstery and probably more. Maybe we should give them a chance.
Quote from: Ed W on July 17, 2011, 08:28:05 PM
I think it's time that government operated more like a large business. They should simply fire all those expensive, whining teachers and replace them with Mexicans, Filipinos, and Chinese. Imagine the money it would save!
Many of our teachers are Mexicans, Filipinos, and Chinese. Do you have something against diversity in our teaching staff? . . .and I don't think that their pay should be based on race. Do you?
I hope you weren't intentionally trying to be raciest.
Quote from: Gaspar on July 18, 2011, 07:33:47 AM
Many of our teachers are Mexicans, Filipinos, and Chinese. Do you have something against diversity in our teaching staff? . . .and I don't think that their pay should be based on race. Do you?
I hope you weren't intentionally trying to be raciest.
really? Someone needs to revive their 'sarcasm' radar.
Quote from: Red Arrow on July 17, 2011, 09:17:41 PM
They do a pretty good job at roofing, lawn care, upholstery and probably more. Maybe we should give them a chance.
Upholstery?
Sarcasm or irony - I always have trouble confusing them. I thought it was over-the-top enough to not merit <sarcasm> </sarcasm> but maybe I was wrong.
And no, it was not racist - though that is in the eye of the beholder, at times. It was meant as a swipe at the outsourcing mentality that grips American business, where getting something done cheaper is synonymous with doing it better. While that serves the bottom line and the stock holders, it may not actually serve the customers.
Remember ValueJet.
Quote from: Ed W on July 18, 2011, 03:21:38 PM
Sarcasm or irony - I always have trouble confusing them. I thought it was over-the-top enough to not merit <sarcasm> </sarcasm> but maybe I was wrong.
And no, it was not racist - though that is in the eye of the beholder, at times. It was meant as a swipe at the outsourcing mentality that grips American business, where getting something done cheaper is synonymous with doing it better. While that serves the bottom line and the stock holders, it may not actually serve the customers.
Remember ValueJet.
I get bit by some TNFers occasionally because of misunderstood sarcasm. For the record, I think this forum is pretty-well behaved when it comes to race issues.
Quote from: guido911 on July 18, 2011, 03:27:45 PM
I get bit by some TNFers occasionally because of misunderstood sarcasm. For the record, I think this forum is pretty-well behaved when it comes to race issues.
Speak for yourself, whitey.
All racism aside ;D, here is an interesting development:
Quote from: guido911 on July 21, 2011, 05:00:29 PM
All racism aside ;D, here is an interesting development:
Odd, I can't find support for that at all in the BLS release. California, Massachusetts, Minnesota, and Texas all had greater gains in the last month. South Carolina added merely 200 fewer than Wisconsin and even Oklahoma had 2/3rds of their awe inspiring 9,300 job gain in June.
So of all the specifically mentioned states in the press release that had net job gains in June, Wisconsin accounted for 6.6% of the total jobs.
Edited to add: Wisconsinites, don't feel bad! Massachusetts got it wrong, too!
http://www.necn.com/07/21/11/MA-sees-great-June-jobs-growth/landing_newengland.html?blockID=542828&feedID=4206
Quote from: guido911 on July 21, 2011, 05:00:29 PM
All racism aside ;D, here is an interesting development:
. . .and the other half was in Texas!
This is just a BS piece for Gov Walker - Spin!! We have a very noticeable presence in Wis and have been adding thousands for over two years.
Even smaller outfits like Badger Meter (local plant, headquarters in Milwaukee) have been doing well for the last two years, so Walker had NOTHING to do with any of that in the last 6 months. Nice try, though. Much like the Murdochian ongoing redirect efforts.
Quote from: Gaspar on July 22, 2011, 12:33:29 PM
. . .and the other half was in Texas!
Nope, sorry, California was responsible for 160% of the total jobs added last month. Texas was only responsible for 177% of the total.
Quote from: nathanm on July 22, 2011, 01:19:26 PM
Nope, sorry, California was responsible for 160% of the total jobs added last month. Texas was only responsible for 177% of the total.
Excuse my stupidity, but how can you be responsible for over 100% of a static figure?
:D
Quote from: Gaspar on July 22, 2011, 02:26:27 PM
Excuse my stupidity, but how can you be responsible for over 100% of a static figure?
:D
18,000
net new jobs were created last month. Some people in Wisconsin and Massachusetts didn't understand the meaning of that, hence this thread.
Got it. Wisconsin is doing something wrong which resulted in a net gain of employment. Jeez, the lengths people go though is sometimes just nuts.
Quote from: guido911 on July 22, 2011, 03:05:57 PM
Got it. Wisconsin is doing something wrong which resulted in a net gain of employment. Jeez, the lengths people go though is sometimes just nuts.
Jiminy...it gained tourism jobs...just like every June.
Good for it. Seasonal jobs add to the economy too. Too bad they don't stick around after September...but hey, they'll have another job spurt next June.
Quote from: guido911 on July 22, 2011, 03:05:57 PM
Got it. Wisconsin is doing something wrong which resulted in a net gain of employment. Jeez, the lengths people go though is sometimes just nuts.
Yep, they sure did get a net gain in employment. Sadly, their unemployment rate is still worse than Oklahoma's and hasn't improved relative to us either.
Quote from: nathanm on July 22, 2011, 03:25:07 PM
Yep, they sure did get a net gain in employment. Sadly, their unemployment rate is still worse than Oklahoma's and hasn't improved relative to us either.
Hmmm, heavily union state. Nah, couldn't be that...
Quote from: Conan71 on July 22, 2011, 04:07:55 PM
Hmmm, heavily union state. Nah, couldn't be that...
Probably couldn't get doctor's notes.
Quote from: nathanm on July 22, 2011, 03:25:07 PM
Yep, they sure did get a net gain in employment. Sadly, their unemployment rate is still worse than Oklahoma's and hasn't improved relative to us either.
Didn't anyone read that this time last year the UE rate was 8.3% and this June's job growth was the highest since 2003? Probably not. ::)
Quote from: Conan71 on July 22, 2011, 04:07:55 PM
Hmmm, heavily union state. Nah, couldn't be that...
The states with the most improvement in unemployment rate since June 2009:
Nevada, Michigan, Indiana, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Oregon, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Wyoming, New Hampshire, Virginia, Florida, and North Dakota, in that order.
In raw numbers of jobs, it's Texas, California, then Ohio (and on down the list).
Massive FAIL.
Out of state unions just spent millions and millions of dollars in member dues to purchase and produce attack ads against Republican lawmakers in Wisconsin, only to hear the giant flushing sound of all that money going down the drain. The people have spoken (again) and the Republican majority prevails.
The Koch Brothers matched every dollar. One republican just spent $8 million on her campaign.
People were pissed and two of the six worst republicans just got recalled.
How is this a victory for republicans?
Geez, Gas. Just change a few words and you have what really happened.
Republicans spent gobs of money (and integrity) to hold onto seats they had already spent gobs of money to acquire. They lost as soon as the recalls were authorized. They lose even bigger next election when the full impact of their Draconian measures take effect and they fail to shift blame to Obama.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 10, 2011, 09:07:24 AM
The Koch Brothers matched every dollar. One republican just spent $8 million on her campaign.
People were pissed and two of the six worst republicans just got recalled.
How is this a victory for republicans?
It was no victory for anyone, however it was a failure for the unions, because it cost them tens of millions of dollars to achieve very little.
Quote from: AquaMan on August 10, 2011, 09:15:17 AM
Geez, Gas. Just change a few words and you have what really happened.
Republicans spent gobs of money (and integrity) to hold onto seats they had already spent gobs of money to acquire. They lost as soon as the recalls were authorized. They lose even bigger next election when the full impact of their Draconian measures take effect and they fail to shift blame to Obama.
Unions spend tens of millions of their member's money.
These unions now function primarily as a political organization. I wonder what would happen if a teacher said, "no I do not want to be a member of the union, because I do not believe in their politics."
I wonder if she could keep her job?
The republicans lost two seats. The republicans were forced to spend millions of dollars less than nine months after they spent millions of dollars to get elected. Yet you think unions failed.
What color is the sky in your world?
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2011, 09:26:46 AM
Unions spend tens of millions of their member's money.
These unions now function primarily as a political organization. I wonder what would happen if a teacher said, "no I do not want to be a member of the union, because I do not believe in their politics."
I wonder if she could keep her job?
Funds which could have gone to, well I dunno, maybe a better pension plan.
RM- if the Koch brothers funded it all, the Repugs aren't out any real money. Where did you hear they were the big backers on this in the first place? To be honest, I've not followed it closely.
If you buy into the argument that this was Unions (bad guys) vs Republicans (good guys) then I can see how you draw the conclusion that the good guys won 4-2. I just don't. Its sophomoric. Even though the media frames it that way for simplicity and ratings. Republicans lost big on this gambit. Money that could have been spent in the next election. Good will and reputation squandered with a large section of voters, a lot of them independents, who can't see demolishing collective bargaining as an effective solution to economic problems. They won a battle and continue to position themselves to lose the war.
The Republicans want to continue the neutering process of what they see as an enemy since their corporate funders assure them that is the truth. It is so lame to say union fees are being used (without tacit approval) in a political battle without admitting that stockholders fund their opposition in the same way (without tacit approval).
Anyway, Gas, why would you care about republicans in Wisconsin? Aren't you allegedly independent? Or is it because you buy the fallacy that organizing labor is bad, but organizing stockholders is saintly?
Quote from: AquaMan on August 10, 2011, 11:35:18 AM
Or is it because you buy the fallacy that organizing labor is bad, but organizing stockholders is saintly?
I think you have it. Labor organizations used to exist to protect the
rights of the workers. That is no longer its function. Today they exist primarily for the extortion of business owners and shareholders. Their primary tool is force. Their primary victim is the consumer who must pay a higher price for goods and services or choose to shop elsewhere. The secondary victim is their membership who becomes both dependent on their services and indentured to fund them. Individuality, exceptionalism and innovation are discouraged and tenure rewarded.
Government unions are even worse, because their primary victim is the public and they do not fear deficit. They understand that even more extortion is possible, because state money is only a tax away. They don't have to worry about bankrupting the company.
As for your other comment about organizing stockholders, keep in mind that stockholders and business owners produce and create jobs. Unions produce nothing.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2011, 12:02:27 PM
I think you have it. Labor organizations used to exist to protect the rights of the workers. That is no longer its function. Today they exist primarily for the extortion of business owners and shareholders. Their primary tool is force. Their primary victim is the consumer who must pay a higher price for goods and services or choose to shop elsewhere. The secondary victim is their membership who becomes both dependent on their services and indentured to fund them. Individuality, exceptionalism and innovation are discouraged and tenure rewarded.
Government unions are even worse, because their primary victim is the public and they do not fear deficit. They understand that even more extortion is possible, because state money is only a tax away. They don't have to worry about bankrupting the company.
As for your other comment about organizing stockholders, keep in mind that stockholders and business owners produce and create jobs. Unions produce nothing.
Uh, damn...
That's a great summary.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2011, 12:02:27 PM
I think you have it. Labor organizations used to exist to protect the rights of the workers. That is no longer its function. Today they exist primarily for the extortion of business owners and shareholders. Their primary tool is force. Their primary victim is the consumer who must pay a higher price for goods and services or choose to shop elsewhere. The secondary victim is their membership who becomes both dependent on their services and indentured to fund them. Individuality, exceptionalism and innovation are discouraged and tenure rewarded.
Government unions are even worse, because their primary victim is the public and they do not fear deficit. They understand that even more extortion is possible, because state money is only a tax away. They don't have to worry about bankrupting the company.
As for your other comment about organizing stockholders, keep in mind that stockholders and business owners produce and create jobs. Unions produce nothing.
My Gawd man. You have been brainwashed. Indoctrinated. You might as well be part of a cult. You used every entrenched falsehood and veiled slur I have ever heard used by someone who totally misunderstands the current and historical roles of labor and business(your past posts have confirmed that.) It all starts with your pre-conceived notion that Unions "used" to be about rights. Yeah, once you label her a whore it's no longer rape. ;)
Keep in mind that labor runs the company for stockholders and business owners. Produce and create jobs without them if you can. Mechanize, digitize, outsource as much as you can, it still takes a human to run your precious capital goods. That labor is also your largest consumer. Even frickin' Henry Ford understood that.
It is insufferable the arrogance you show towards labor. I dearly hope that when you "time out" at 50 you have to work an hourly paid job again.
Quote from: AquaMan on August 10, 2011, 01:50:06 PM
My Gawd man. You have been brainwashed. Indoctrinated. You might as well be part of a cult. You used every entrenched falsehood and veiled slur I have ever heard used by someone who totally misunderstands the current and historical roles of labor and business(your past posts have confirmed that.) It all starts with your pre-conceived notion that Unions "used" to be about rights. Yeah, once you label her a whore it's no longer rape. ;)
Keep in mind that labor runs the company for stockholders and business owners. Produce and create jobs without them if you can. Mechanize, digitize, outsource as much as you can, it still takes a human to run your precious capital goods. That labor is also your largest consumer. Even frickin' Henry Ford understood that.
It is insufferable the arrogance you show towards labor. I dearly hope that when you "time out" at 50 you have to work an hourly paid job again.
You don't get it, but that's OK.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2011, 01:59:12 PM
You don't get it, but that's OK.
You're right, I will never understand cultists. And there is no use in trying to reason with them. But that's ok.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 10, 2011, 09:44:35 AM
RM- if the Koch brothers funded it all, the Repugs aren't out any real money. Where did you hear they were the big backers on this in the first place?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22koch.html
And look at this dirty trick played by the Koch Brothers...
This week, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported: "In recent days, the conservative group Americans for Prosperity has sent out absentee ballot applications to voters — including Democratic activists — in two state Senate recall districts with instructions to return the material after the date of the election. ... In recent days, the state chapter of AFP mailed out fliers telling voters to return the absentee ballot applications to their city clerk before Aug. 11, even though the election date for the two districts receiving the mailers is Aug. 9."The Koch Brothers fund a campaign where they sent democrats in certain districts fake absentee ballots with a fake Election Board P.O. box address for return and a date that was after the election.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 10, 2011, 02:36:53 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22koch.html
And look at this dirty trick played by the Koch Brothers...
This week, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported: "In recent days, the conservative group Americans for Prosperity has sent out absentee ballot applications to voters — including Democratic activists — in two state Senate recall districts with instructions to return the material after the date of the election. ... In recent days, the state chapter of AFP mailed out fliers telling voters to return the absentee ballot applications to their city clerk before Aug. 11, even though the election date for the two districts receiving the mailers is Aug. 9."
The Koch Brothers fund a campaign where they sent democrats in certain districts fake absentee ballots with a fake Election Board P.O. box address for return and a date that was after the election.
The misleading ballot was actually sent to all six districts where Republicans are facing August 9th recalls, as well as the two democrat recalls. It was intended to only be sent to the districts where the two Democrats face recalls on the August 16th.
It was the mistake of the printing company who acknowledged sending the ballots to all districts by accident. Because the ballots went Republican voters in these Republican districts, most of the damage (if any) was done to Republican voters.
The AFP has apologized for the mistake and as for the controversy being pushed by KOS and HuffPo, they've issued a rather brief statement " I guess they think we would want to intentionally confuse our own members! It does not take a rocket scientist to see that their attack is nonsensical."
All lies.
They printed fake ballots with instructions to return them to their own P.O. Box.
Please. Oh, Mister Apologist for these criminals, explain why someone would do that?
While printing actual fake ballots is going a little farther, it's been pretty typical for Republicans in highly contested districts in certain swing states to send material stating that the election is later than it really is since at least 2004. They've also been caught sending stuff to keep voters home, like mailers stating that a voter needs a driver's license to vote even in states where there is no (ridiculous, IMO) voter ID law.
RM, you don't really expect an answer do you? Might as well ask a Scientologist.
This scandal is worse to me than anything that gaspar wrote about Acorn and trying to register aliens to vote.
They selected certain voters , then tried to confuse them to make them think they were already voting, then would throw away any that voted for a democrat. It is nothing less than despicable.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 10, 2011, 02:36:53 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22koch.html
And look at this dirty trick played by the Koch Brothers...
This week, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported: "In recent days, the conservative group Americans for Prosperity has sent out absentee ballot applications to voters — including Democratic activists — in two state Senate recall districts with instructions to return the material after the date of the election. ... In recent days, the state chapter of AFP mailed out fliers telling voters to return the absentee ballot applications to their city clerk before Aug. 11, even though the election date for the two districts receiving the mailers is Aug. 9."
The Koch Brothers fund a campaign where they sent democrats in certain districts fake absentee ballots with a fake Election Board P.O. box address for return and a date that was after the election.
Sounds like they took cues from the Chicago crew ;)
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 10, 2011, 03:17:11 PM
All lies.
They printed fake ballots with instructions to return them to their own P.O. Box.
Please. Oh, Mister Apologist for these criminals, explain why someone would do that?
Wow! Where did you get that. I'll get a copy for you. It was a letter and a
Ballot Application, not a ballot. In the letter it had the date for the recall vote at August 16th, and stated that absentee voters must return their ballots no later than the 11th.
It did not mention the vote on the 9th, because it was not intended to be sent to that district.
Furthermore, it was sent out to the address list for members of Americans for Prosperity (a conservative group). At least 2 of the ballots incorrectly arrived to Democrats, this is known because only two democrats filed complaints. The majority of the complaints filed were from members of AFP highlighting the incorrect date.
So. . .There was no ballot sent, nor was this targeted at democrats.
Here is a copy of the documents sent. http://www.politico.com/static/PPM187_ballotapp.html
Nothing sticks in my craw worse than members who normally participate in intelligent debate accusing other members of "lies."
We all have opinions and the goal is to be able to support your opinions with fact. Sometimes that is simple, sometimes opinions must simply remain opinions.
I must make a correction. Absentee Ballot Application Processing Center, P.O. Box 1327, Madison WI is an office used by AFP.
If they are not sending out Absentee Ballots to respondents than they are certainly committing a crime. This is however not unheard of for political groups to hand out Absentee Ballots to their supporters. Every political organization including Acorn does this. Acorn used to "help" people fill out the ballots.
So, all we need do is watch and see if they are suspect in processing the distribution of ballots.
http://www.alternet.org/news/151895/did_koch_group_team_up_with_religious_right_to_suppress_wisconsin_vote/?page=entire
Wisconsin Democrats have reason to be suspicious of Americans For Propserity's electoral activities. Last October, One Wisconsin Now, a progressive group, obtained undercover audio recording of the meeting of a local Tea Party group, the Grandsons of Liberty, in which a vote-caging scheme was laid out that involved mailers that AFP agreed to send out to voters in left-leaning districts in Milwaukee. The addresses were provided via the Republican Party of Wisconsin, through the state's Voter Vault. (At that time the state GOP was led by Reince Priebus, who has since gone on to head the Republican National Committee, an apparent reward for his fine work in Wisconsin.) In the vote-cage scheme, mailers were sent in August to districts in which much of the housing was in college dormitories. They had "do not forward" instructions printed on the outside, so that the votes of those whose flyers bounced back to AFP could be challenged at the polls. (Of course, many of the students had moved out of their dorms by August, and would return to new room assignments two months before the election.)
Just a minor typo my donkey.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 11, 2011, 08:14:55 AM
http://www.alternet.org/news/151895/did_koch_group_team_up_with_religious_right_to_suppress_wisconsin_vote/?page=entire
Wisconsin Democrats have reason to be suspicious of Americans For Propserity's electoral activities. Last October, One Wisconsin Now, a progressive group, obtained undercover audio recording of the meeting of a local Tea Party group, the Grandsons of Liberty, in which a vote-caging scheme was laid out that involved mailers that AFP agreed to send out to voters in left-leaning districts in Milwaukee. The addresses were provided via the Republican Party of Wisconsin, through the state's Voter Vault. (At that time the state GOP was led by Reince Priebus, who has since gone on to head the Republican National Committee, an apparent reward for his fine work in Wisconsin.) In the vote-cage scheme, mailers were sent in August to districts in which much of the housing was in college dormitories. They had "do not forward" instructions printed on the outside, so that the votes of those whose flyers bounced back to AFP could be challenged at the polls. (Of course, many of the students had moved out of their dorms by August, and would return to new room assignments two months before the election.)
Just a minor typo my donkey.
Has any actual news source reported that, or anyone actually heard the alleged recording? I don't consider rumors by Alternet a news source.
Earlier in this thread you posted from reason.com.
We are supposed to accept your crazy sources, but you not ours?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 11, 2011, 08:28:46 AM
Earlier in this thread you posted from reason.com.
We are supposed to accept your crazy sources, but you not ours?
Kinda funny. You know, how double standards work and all?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 11, 2011, 08:28:46 AM
Earlier in this thread you posted from reason.com.
We are supposed to accept your crazy sources, but you not ours?
I posted opinion, not conspiracy with alleged evidence that cannot be produced.
Listen here
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/09/21/gop-and-tea-party-team-up-to-obstruct-voters-in-wisconsin-plot-caught-on-tape/
transcript here
http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/swv2010/Press%20Conference%20Transcript%202010.09.20.pdf
You really should be careful before you say evidence can't be produced. Oops, I meant to say alleged evidence.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 11, 2011, 08:45:50 AM
You really should be careful before you say evidence can't be produced. Oops, I meant to say alleged evidence.
I just read that. Basically they identified a number of problems that in many cases are never caught, or are caught after the elections.
1. People filing absentee ballots and voting in person are typically not caught by the clerks.
2. People who move to a new district, but vote in both their old and new districts because their names are still on both rolls.
3. People who claim student status that show up to vote with no identification or address validation.
Their solution with the assistance of AFP is to help distribute the ballot applications, collect name and address information and compare that to registration information (basically what the clerks are supposed to do but don't have the manpower), and compare voters who file multiple ballots in multiple districts, and spot and investigate multiple registered voters at single addresses (if 200 people live in the same apartment, you may have a fraud).
"So the goal is let's find the voter fraud ahead of time and eliminate as much of
it before the elections as we can and put pressure on the authorities who are supposed to be doing
something and to stop treating it as a victimless crime because we're all victims of it and let's do
something."
I'm still not seeing a conspiracy?
Stephen Colbert's take...
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/393972/august-04-2011/wisconsin-s-senator-recall-election
I thought Lousiana was the king of crawfish. Might actually be up in Wisconsin. ;) But, if you believe that Nixon's secretary could accidentally erase tapes with her foot...... Well maybe it was just a typo, just supposed to go to republicans, the recordings were just misunderstandings of true patriot's discussions in searching out criminal college students, and that this happening before is just well, coincidence, then yeah, could have been just a little mistake. Mailing is so difficult you know.
Oh dear, the unions have cost us jobs once again:
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/08/honda-building-new-800-million-auto-plant-in-mexico/1
Quote from: nathanm on August 13, 2011, 09:39:43 AM
Oh dear, the unions have cost us jobs once again:
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/08/honda-building-new-800-million-auto-plant-in-mexico/1
Apparently the answer to our economic problems is to eliminate unions and regulations so that we can take on third world status, let crime infiltrate our police, export or expedite huge amounts of narcotics and provide tax havens for the super rich. Then Honda will build more cars here. Its a plan.
Quote from: AquaMan on August 13, 2011, 10:24:52 AM
Apparently the answer to our economic problems is to eliminate unions and regulations so that we can take on third world status, let crime infiltrate our police, export or expedite huge amounts of narcotics and provide tax havens for the super rich. Then Honda will build more cars here. Its a plan.
Might be as good a plan as any lately proposed, by BOTH sides of center.
It seems to me that Honda is hedging their bets. Putting plants in different countries builds brand loyalty in each one and balances out any potential negatives so that no one country can decimate them. A real globalist strategy and practically nothing to do with unions, regulations or quality of workforce.
http://tinyurl.com/3tn8pet (http://tinyurl.com/3tn8pet)
Wisconsin Town Bars Republicans From Labor Day Parade
QuoteWisconsin politics — which hasn't been pretty of late — has made its way into a local Labor Day parade. The organizers of the Wausau Labor Day parade announced they would not let Republican lawmakers take part in the Sept. 5 display. The parade is organized by 30 local unions.
The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports:
In a statement, [Randy Radtke, president of the council,] added that the parade is intended to celebrate working men and women and what the labor movement has given them: weekends, a 40-hour workweek, child labor protection and a safe working environment.
"It should come as no surprise that organizers choose not to invite elected officials who have openly attacked worker's rights or stood idly by while their political party fought to strip public workers of their right to collectively bargain," Radtke said.
The background, if you don't remember, is that after a protracted fight in which Democratic lawmakers fled the state, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, a Republican, managed to pass a law that stripped public employees of their collective bargaining rights. Since the law passed, the state has been embroiled in bitter recall campaigns.
WSAW, a local TV station in central Wisconsin, talked to Republicans:
The Republican Party of Lincoln County says the tradition of a shared event will now end over "petty and short sighted anger toward legally elected officials."
Republicans are hoping to work with Wausau city officials to resolve the conflict before Labor Day.
Update at 11:31 p.m. ET. Response From A Congressman:
Rep. Sean Duffy (R-WI) represents Wausau in Washington. The congressman has participated in the parade before and sent a statement to local station WAOW.
"Having walked in this parade in past years," the statement read, "Congressman Duffy was hoping that for a moment, we could set our differences aside and simply have some fun in a family-friendly event."
Quote from: Townsend on August 29, 2011, 10:55:03 AM
http://tinyurl.com/3tn8pet (http://tinyurl.com/3tn8pet)
Wisconsin Town Bars Republicans From Labor Day Parade
(http://onmilwaukee.com/images/articles/me/metcalfriegert/metcalfriegert_fullsize_story2.jpg)
"Rah rah, who cares about riding around on some pile of tissue paper?"
Quote from: Conan71 on August 29, 2011, 11:01:19 AM
(http://onmilwaukee.com/images/articles/me/metcalfriegert/metcalfriegert_fullsize_story2.jpg)
"Rah rah, who cares about riding around on some pile of tissue paper?"
That was the movie I immediately thought of.
I was hoping someone would catch that. Not sure if the quote is 100% accurate, but a close facsimile...
Walker is back in the news...
http://www.wispolitics.com/index.iml?Article=248237
Looks like two teachers' unions in Wisconsin have wised up.
QuoteIn Yorkville, teachers voted by mail in late September to disband their union. Of 34 members, 29 returned the paper ballots and all voted to disband, according to Becky Seitz, the former union president.
"In the 30-some years we were part of the (American Federation of Teachers union), we never had to use their services. There were never any grievances that warranted that," Seitz said, explaining teachers found it unnecessary to keep paying monthly dues of about $50 when they weren't using union services anyway. "We really - and I'm going to be honest - never really got much out of it. We've always had a good relationship with our administrators and our board."
Read more: http://m.journaltimes.com/news/local/two-teachers-unions-in-racine-county-disband/article_ec48afa0-22c0-11e1-82c7-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz1gLhtrKOD
http://m.journaltimes.com/news/local/two-teachers-unions-in-racine-county-disband/article_ec48afa0-22c0-11e1-82c7-0019bb2963f4.html
Unions are never necessary when employers are fair and just. That is no surprise.
Quote from: AquaMan on December 12, 2011, 01:12:38 PM
Unions are never necessary when employers are fair and just. That is no surprise.
What if the union is unfair and unjust?
Quote from: guido911 on December 12, 2011, 01:20:41 PM
What if the union is unfair and unjust?
I believe they are legally protected to allow that.
The point is that if a business is well run, treats its employees fairly and with dignity, a union simply can't and won't be able to sign up any employees.
When Unions are badly run and treat their employer badly in negotiations they generally get it thrown back at them in spades. Show me a contentious, long lasting strike and I'll show you unfair and unjust on both sides.
As an aside, some industries enjoy having a Union to effect ongoing training and supply quality, licensed workers.
Quote from: AquaMan on December 12, 2011, 01:27:25 PM
The point is that if a business is well run, treats its employees fairly and with dignity, a union simply can't and won't be able to sign up any employees.
I disagree. Peer pressure can be very powerful.
Quote
When Unions are badly run and treat their employer badly in negotiations they generally get it thrown back at them in spades. Show me a contentious, long lasting strike and I'll show you unfair and unjust on both sides.
Probably mostly true.
Quote
As an aside, some industries enjoy having a Union to effect ongoing training and supply quality, licensed workers.
This is an area where I could agree with a responsible union. Unfortunately, the stereotype is that even though licensed, union workers are often not of the quality expected. Workplace attitude by union members is another area that has a bad reputation in the non-union world. If unions could work to remove those stereotypes, more people would respect them and perhaps see value in belonging.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 12, 2011, 01:40:24 PM
This is an area where I could agree with a responsible union. Unfortunately, the stereotype is that even though licensed, union workers are often not of the quality expected. Workplace attitude by union members is another area that has a bad reputation in the non-union world. If unions could work to remove those stereotypes, more people would respect them and perhaps see value in belonging.
Spent some time in Detroit area and New Jersey in the early 80's working with union electrical workers, and a few mechanicals. Attitude was strictly self preservation - very strongly protective of their area and the work they did in that area. Very strongly. I was perfectly content to let them turn the screwdrivers and connect the meters - like having my own personal technical equivalent of a chauffeur. It all took a little longer than it would have if I had been doing the work, but not much - and most of that was likely because I was already familiar with the equipment, and most of the time it was their first time to see it. The guys were all good to work with once they understood that I had no intention of taking a meal off of their table. Did a lot of good work and even got some friends out of it. Even with the "New Jersey" reputation for attitude. Didn't hurt that I took baseball caps with our company logo everywhere I went and handed them out like candy at Halloween. (Today, it would probably have to be iPods to get the same level of smooth operation!) Never had anything but good work relationship with any of them.
But I still don't want to be a union member - too restrictive for me.
And the winner of the Governor of the Year? You guessed it, Scott Walker.
QuoteHe has dominated the political debate on both sides. Defining the issues. He is cited by both Democrats and Republicans as the best of example of what is wrong, or what is right with a conservative approach to government. Although they will never admit it, many Democratic governors are different from Walker only in a matter of degrees.
Nearly every governor, regardless of party, began the year saying the current path of expensive pension and benefit packages for public employees is unsustainable. The way the issue exploded in Wisconsin is as much a function of the legal and legislative tools at Walker's disposal as it is about the specific route he chose to take.
This is why Governors Journal has selected Scott Walker as the 2011 Governor of the Year.
It is not accurate to say Scott Walker launched an unannounced attack on public employees. For decades, state and local government leaders have complained about government employee unions: Collective bargaining, growing benefit packages, under-funded pension systems and binding arbitration. The warning siren had howled
http://governorsjournal.com/2011/12/governor-of-the-year-scott-walker/
Quote from: guido911 on December 23, 2011, 02:03:56 PM
And the winner of the Governor of the Year? You guessed it, Scott Walker.
http://governorsjournal.com/2011/12/governor-of-the-year-scott-walker/
Really? It just means he's an attention you-know-what...
I like popping Scott Walker!
Scott Walker Investigation Leads To Felony Charges
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/05/scott-walker-investigatio_n_1186726.html?ref=politics
creeps
That's a lot of signature's: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/wis-dems-make-it-official-one-million-signatures-collected-to-recall-walker.php
I'm not up on my Wisconsin recall protocols, but that's a buttload of signatures.
Lots of folks unhappy with Monsieur Walker, looks like.
I'm sure it's mostly dead people.
Quote from: nathanm on January 18, 2012, 12:19:03 AM
I'm sure it's mostly dead people.
Nails it. Good one, Nathan!
One thing that is very interesting about this is they have about 50% of the people who voted last time signing this thing. If they all come out and vote, it may well be that he gets un-elected from this.
Quote5/09/2012 @ 2:23PM |46,188 views
Scott Walker Using $100 Million Of Taxpayer Money To Fight Off Recall?
As Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker heads into the final stretch in his effort to hang onto his job, he is finding it increasingly more difficult to make his case honestly— or without using huge sums of taxpayer money to sway voters.
While life would likely have been easier for the Governor had collective bargaining remained the key issue of the campaign, now that the election has become largely about Walker's record on job creation, the polls reveal that things are becoming increasingly more difficult for Scott Walker. Wisconsin currently competes with Nevada for the dubious title of worst job creator in the nation, resulting in the polls tightening into a dead heat, leaving the Governor with reason to be worried.
In the effort to move withering public opinion in his direction, the Governor has embarked on a campaign strategy highly dependent upon finding someone else to blame for the poor economic performance of his state. In the process, Walker has resorted to committing a huge amount of taxpayer money to aid in his political survival, while mounting a campaign that—to anyone paying attention—only serves to highlight his own failures over the past decade.
Not surprisingly, the 'someone' chosen by Walker to play the role of scapegoat is his recall election opponent, Mayor Tom Barrett of city of Milwaukee—a city with some of the most difficult poverty problems in the nation.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/05/09/scott-walker-using-100-million-of-taxpayer-money-to-fight-off-recall/
and there's this intriguing info:
Former assistant city attorney for Milwaukee, member of the Wisconsin Elections Board, and a former municipal court judge.
Whats this all about? He asked for and received immunity.
Tip of the iceberg I say. This guy has something to say.
12th person granted immunity in Wis. John Doe casehttp://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/usatoday/article/39241989?odyssey=mod
On the subject of taxes...
Quote[Madison, Wisc...] After refining the dataset created by Verify the Recall, a Wisconsin man began running it against other public records and discovered 571 tax delinquents signed Recall petitions.
His findings? The total in back taxes owed by petitioners is more than $17 million. The list of individuals can be found through the website, www.putwisconsinfirst.com
The creator of the site told the MacIver News Service, his databases should be considered to be tools and not definitive source documents. The source documents are from the State of Wisconsin and the Verify the Recall effort and can be found through links on the site, all he's done is connected the names and addresses together.
http://www.maciverinstitute.com/2012/05/website-reveals-recallers-owe-17-million-in-back-taxes/index.php
Quote from: guido911 on May 10, 2012, 03:03:05 PM
On the subject of taxes...
http://www.maciverinstitute.com/2012/05/website-reveals-recallers-owe-17-million-in-back-taxes/index.php
So it's fabricated?
I wonder how many tax laws Walker's proponents have paid to have rewritten so they don't have $17 million in tax liability.
So the recall is today.
The news stories I've seen have been pretty amazing. The money is impressive.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/05/politics/wisconsin-recall-money/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/05/politics/wisconsin-recall-money/index.html)
QuoteWashington (CNN) -- Millions of phone calls have been made. Thousands of yard signs are posted on Badger State lawns. Television ads blanket the Wisconsin airwaves.
All of this frenetic activity in Tuesday's gubernatorial recall in Wisconsin comes at an unprecedented price tag: Upward of $63 million, and that doesn't take into account money raised the last three weeks that hasn't been registered yet.
"When we come up with a final tally for this race, it's going to be in the $70 (million) to $80 million range," predicted Mike McCabe, who runs Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, a nonpartisan campaign watchdog group.
Reports: Robo-calls lying to Wisconsin voters
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77061.html (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77061.html)
QuoteMilwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett said his campaign is contacting Wisconsin residents to counter reports of a robo-call that says anyone who signed a petition to recall Gov. Scott Walker doesn't have to vote in Tuesday's election.
That's sad if it's true and it's sad that people have to be told the petition signature doesn't count as a vote.
Come on! Everyone knows the new rules, Republicans and Independents are supposed to vote on Tuesday and Democrats on Wednesday.
Keeps things less crowded that way.
Quote from: Gaspar on June 05, 2012, 02:30:58 PM
Come on! Everyone knows the new rules, Republicans and Independents are supposed to vote on Tuesday and Democrats on Wednesday.
Keeps things less crowded that way.
It's pathetic people fall for these shenanigans.
Quote from: Townsend on June 05, 2012, 12:40:27 PM
Reports: Robo-calls lying to Wisconsin voters
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77061.html (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77061.html)
That's sad if it's true and it's sad that people have to be told the petition signature doesn't count as a vote.
One would think that such a call as this would be an excellent thing to perhaps play on the news. Unfortunatly, Salon, and Thinkprogress, the news sources that first reported the calls haven't been able to offer them online. Tom Barret says he's "heard" about the calls too.
Now, if I were a reporter, and a source told me they received the call (constituting a federal criminal action), I would help my source contact the FBI, and get a copy of the call record from AT&T or whoever the carrier is. It should be very easy at that point to prosecute, but no one seems interested in doing anything beyond saying "I've heard people say."
I think I'm going to just file this under NICE TRY until some evidence surfaces.
Quote from: Gaspar on June 05, 2012, 02:50:03 PM
I think I'm going to just file this under NICE TRY until some evidence surfaces.
Uh oh. The "mosquito spray" claims another.
(http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/weigel/2012/06/05/scott_walker_tweets_a_reminder_of_the_day_ronald_reagan_died/1338930036337.png)
So, yes, let's.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 02, 2011, 04:55:10 PM
The other thread was getting long and thought it could be freshened up...
I was surprised to read that some unions had actually given money to Scott Walker's campaign for Governor and other unions endorsed him.
The Milwaukee Professional Firefighters Association and Milwaukee Police Association endorsed him, with members appearing in uniform in television spots. The firefighters also gave money.
Then I realized that Governor Walker didn't include police and fire workers in his quest to eliminate collective bargaining. Those unions will still be able to have collective bargaining for their rights, pay, and pensions.
What a slimeball Scott Walker has turned out to be. He attacks unions everyday in the media and says they must be stopped. Well, except for the unions that gave him money.
MMMMMMMMmmmmmmm...Crow....!!!!
Quote from: guido911 on June 06, 2012, 08:03:37 AM
Slaps are ok. It's kisses on the cheek from union bosses that you have to worry about.
Scott Walker was only the third Governor in history to face recall. He is the first Governor in history to retain his post after a recall election.
Its a shame that he had to spend $50 million to retain the post he already had, set the citizens of Wisconsin against one another and cause this recall election in the first place. Maybe he will try to reach out and try to re-unify the state now.
Look at it this way, it's $50 million more flowing into state and national economies. Nice union beat-down Wisconsin!
I also love how CNN calls it a "narrow" victory with a 7% margin. Obama won the 2008 election with a similar % and it was called a "wide" margin.
I'm quite certain, had Walker lost, it would have been a "resounding victory for organized labor".
CNN is biased.
Walker raised ten times the money the unions did. Much of it came from out-of-state interests, including millions from the Koch brothers. The only sure thing about this election is that it confirms that whichever side spends the most money usually wins.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 06, 2012, 12:13:53 PM
CNN is biased.
Walker raised ten times the money the unions did. Much of it came from out-of-state interests, including millions from the Koch brothers. The only sure thing about this election is that it confirms that whichever side spends the most money usually wins.
The voters must be happy with all that money flowing into the state. Walker not only turned a massive deficit into a surplus, but he continues to stimulate the economy beyond his own designs.
Quote from: Gaspar on June 06, 2012, 12:20:49 PM
Walker not only turned a massive deficit into a surplus, but he continues to stimulate the economy beyond his own designs.
There is no surplus. Walker is projecting one for next year if miracles happen.
Walker has claimed there will be a $10 million surplus in 2013, but he is projecting state revenue to increase by 4.2% ($515.2 million) even though revenue has fallen the last three years, and the federal government will give his state $528 million more in medicare funding (even though there is no agreement in place).
http://www.doa.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=8371&locid=166
I will gladly pay you next Tuesday for a hamburger today.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 06, 2012, 12:13:53 PM
CNN is biased.
Walker raised ten times the money the unions did. Much of it came from out-of-state interests, including millions from the Koch brothers. The only sure thing about this election is that it confirms that whichever side spends the most money usually wins.
Strongly disagree. They could have thrown tons more to the "unions" and it would not make a diff. Progressive people now realize the will of the great masses is to get these runaway pensions under control. This differs from austerity. This is a shift towards cost control and the reallocation of resources... Walker's no hero of this movement. His time is limited. The gloating by the righties is misplaced.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 06, 2012, 12:43:42 PM
There is no surplus. Walker is projecting one for next year if miracles happen.
Walker has claimed there will be a $10 million surplus in 2013, but he is projecting state revenue to increase by 4.2% ($515.2 million) even though revenue has fallen the last three years, and the federal government will give his state $528 million more in medicare funding (even though there is no agreement in place).
http://www.doa.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=8371&locid=166
I will gladly pay you next Tuesday for a hamburger today.
That's some funny stuff right there. You borrowed that directly from the GOP playbook which was used to disparage any idea of a Clinton surplus. Amazing how well you recite it!
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 06, 2012, 01:07:28 PM
Strongly disagree. They could have thrown tons more to the "unions" and it would not make a diff. Progressive people now realize the will of the great masses is to get these runaway pensions under control. This differs from austerity. This is a shift towards cost control and the reallocation of resources... Walker's no hero of this movement. His time is limited. The gloating by the righties is misplaced.
I'm confused here. Are you saying that what he did is actually agreeable to progressives now?
I've looked over the data and basically the public workers still pay about 1/2 the benefit costs that private sector employees do in Wisconsin. Sure they pay more out of pocket but it's still a better deal than their neighbor working for the private sector.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 06, 2012, 01:44:07 PM
I'm confused here. Are you saying that what he did is actually agreeable to progressives now?
I've looked over the data and basically the public workers still pay about 1/2 the benefit costs that private sector employees do in Wisconsin. Sure they pay more out of pocket but it's still a better deal than their neighbor working for the private sector.
The recall effort actually caused a snowball effect that is 3rd page stuff for the general media. San Diego and San Jose just passed similar measures reigning in pensions and healthcare costs by requiring workers to pay closer rates to the private sector. Measures passed with a 70% vote in San Jose and a 66% vote in San Diego.
I seem to remember when this attack on Walker first took off Lil Debbie Wasserman Schultz said the recall will "send a message" to Walker... Like when George Foreman's face sent that message to Ali's knuckles.
It seems she was right. The message has been sent and the people feel empowered to reject threats from public sector unions. We just want public sector union members to pay their fair share. :D
Quote from: carltonplace on June 06, 2012, 11:11:08 AM
Scott Walker was only the third Governor in history to face recall. He is the first Governor in history to retain his post after a recall election.
Its a shame that he had to spend $50 million to retain the post he already had, set the citizens of Wisconsin against one another and cause this recall election in the first place. Maybe he will try to reach out and try to re-unify the state now.
The whole mess was Walker's fault? He was elected by the Wisconsin people in 2010 and did what we thought was right. The dems are the ones that trashed the capitol, ran off and hid in another state, and had two dry electoral runs before this attempt that failed. Heck, Walker won by 5% in 2010 and by 7% this time. Doesn't he have a mandate to at least try what he wants to do?
As for the money, IIRC, Obama had megabucks. Did you complain back then?
And democracy died last night.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/voter-cries-over-wi-recall-on-cnn-signaling-death-of-democracy-%E2%80%98end-of-usa-as-we-know-it%E2%80%99/
Walker isn't the only one with union trouble, now the focus shifts south to Chicago, where Rahm Emanuel faces a showdown with the teacher's union. They are taking a strike authorization vote today. At issue is a 29% salary increase over the next two years. Just FYI, average teacher pay, less pension benefits (if I read correctly) is $69,000 which is about $25,000 more than the median household income in Chicago. The beauty of it is, the teachers work about two months less than their private sector counter-parts.
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/June-2011/Chicago-Teacher-Salaries-The-Long-View/
The school board and the city say there is no way they can accommodate such a massive pay hike.
Looks like the unions everywhere are being told "what part of we are broke don't you understand?"
Quote from: guido911 on June 06, 2012, 02:11:34 PM
And democracy died last night.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/voter-cries-over-wi-recall-on-cnn-signaling-death-of-democracy-%E2%80%98end-of-usa-as-we-know-it%E2%80%99/
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-crrhNTC6dfA/TdXSLNS_R9I/AAAAAAAAB6I/h4J27xT7d3c/s1600/End-is-near-785574.jpg)
Quote from: Gaspar on June 06, 2012, 02:14:58 PM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-crrhNTC6dfA/TdXSLNS_R9I/AAAAAAAAB6I/h4J27xT7d3c/s1600/End-is-near-785574.jpg)
Last month Wassermanshultz said:
On Sunday's "State of the Union" on CNN, Democratic National Committee chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz addressed her party's prospects of reclaiming the Wisconsin governor's mansion, calling the battle to recall Gov. Scott Walker a "dry run" for the November election. "We have put our considerable grassroots resources behind him. All of the Obama for America and state party resources, our grassroots network is fully engaged. And — well, I think what's going to happen is that because of our on-the-ground operation, we have had an opportunity in this election, because especially given that Wisconsin is a battleground state, just like we did in the recall elections a year ago, to give this a test run."
"I think Tom Barrett will pull this out," she added, "but regardless it has given the Obama for America operation an opportunity to do the dry run that we need of our massive, significant, dynamic grassroots presidential campaign, which can't really be matched by the Romney campaign or the Republicans, because they've ignored the ground operations."
If that is true, they're going to need a bigger boat.
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/949/castdc7.jpg)
Any knowledgeable person knows democracy died on Dec.8,2000 only to be tilted towards an Oligarchy on Jan. 21, 2010.
Gaspar, get some new material....
I was not going to gloat at all since I thought last night put to bed the issues in Wisconsin and public sector unions until at least October. However, a few in here are apparently downright bitter over the results, even blaming Walker for what happened. As if example after example of the disgusting union activity last year NEVER happened. The "sick out", teachers hauling kids to protests, doctors making fraudulent sick notes, grown men running and hiding out in other states, etc. I'll spare everyone the signs protesters carried at these events. Still, here's a walk down memory lane, which is all Walker's fault apparently.
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 06, 2012, 03:14:55 PM
Any knowledgeable person knows democracy died on Dec.8,2000 only to be tilted towards an Oligarchy on Jan. 21, 2010.
Gaspar, get some new material....
NO! Say it's not true. .. You're not. . .couldn't be. . .implying that IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!
Quote from: Conan71 on June 06, 2012, 02:13:13 PM
Walker isn't the only one with union trouble, now the focus shifts south to Chicago, where Rahm Emanuel faces a showdown with the teacher's union. They are taking a strike authorization vote today. At issue is a 29% salary increase over the next two years. Just FYI, average teacher pay, less pension benefits (if I read correctly) is $69,000 which is about $25,000 more than the median household income in Chicago. The beauty of it is, the teachers work about two months less than their private sector counter-par
I'm curious. If teacher pay is so high, why don't they have excellent candidates beating down the door? Or are all their teachers already superstars? Or perhaps there's something else at work keeping well qualified people from going for those jobs?
Quote from: nathanm on June 06, 2012, 03:41:16 PM
I'm curious. If teacher pay is so high, why don't they have excellent candidates beating down the door? Or are all their teachers already superstars? Or perhaps there's something else at work keeping well qualified people from going for those jobs?
I have no clue as to the quality of Chicago teachers, I'll leave that to the Chi-Town leg-humpers on here.
Are you suggesting Chicago teachers are morons or bottom of the barrel types?
Quote from: Gaspar on June 06, 2012, 03:38:52 PM
NO! Say it's not true. .. You're not. . .couldn't be. . .implying that IT'S BUSH'S SCOTUS' FAULT!
can you imagine what a cultist and his flock might do to the courts?
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2011, 03:37:10 PM
American Airlines is (at least) one case where I agree with some of the Union's demands. Giving huge performance bonuses to executives after making the rank & file take 25% cuts is unacceptable. I took a 25% cut once (totally unrelated to AA) and it was tough.
Job Cuts Expected at American Airlines' Tulsa Maintenance Base, Possibly Todayhttp://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2012/06/06/job-cuts-expected-at-american-airlines-tulsa-maintenance-base-possibly-today/?utm_source=bit.ly&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter
Quote from: Conan71 on June 06, 2012, 03:52:32 PM
Are you suggesting Chicago teachers are morons or bottom of the barrel types?
No, I'm suggesting the common stereotype given by the anti-union lower-their-pay folks is of stupid and lazy people suckling from the government teat. If that stereotype is actually true, the market is obviously telling us we're not paying enough. Do most private companies who find themselves with a set of stupid employees look at the situation and say "oh, I've got dumb employees, I guess I should lower pay to get some better people"? I don't think that's how it works, but I've personally never employed more than a couple of people at a time.
If the pay isn't the issue, why is it that we can't get many good public employees? It's not as if people don't deal with equally stupid bureaucracy in many of our very large corporate employers.
Quote from: nathanm on June 06, 2012, 03:41:16 PM
Or perhaps there's something else at work keeping well qualified people from going for those jobs?
Well, it would require living in the Chicago area.
Seriously though, teachers' salaries may be $25K more than average but is that a salary that would allow someone in that area to live reasonably comfortable?
Well, I was wrong. Dooshbags are still out there marching and b!tching again. These people cannot understand "STHU you lost FOUR TIMES" through their dumbassed heads.
Quote from: guido911 on June 06, 2012, 07:04:02 PM
Well, I was wrong. Dooshbags are still out there marching and b!tching again. These people cannot understand "STHU you lost FOUR TIMES" through their dumbassed heads.
What! The
nerve of those people! They should follow the example set by the Republicans after McCain's massive loss in the 2008 election. They knew they were beaten and they....um....they got really humble and quiet about it for....um..........never mind.
Quote from: Ed W on June 06, 2012, 07:55:57 PM
What! The nerve of those people! They should follow the example set by the Republicans after McCain's massive loss in the 2008 election. They knew they were beaten and they....um....they got really humble and quiet about it for....um..........never mind.
Walker won in 2010, one recall effort failed last year, Prosser beat Kloppy lastyear, now Walker, Kleefisch and 3 other recall targets all win CONVINCINGLY. That's FOUR failed attempts, three to undo an election. What more do these people (who you support) want? Oh, did I mention these animals tore up the state's capitol building and a bunch of elected officials pussed out and hid in another state?
So, since they were on the losing side in this election, they also lost their rights to free speech and assembly?
Guido, you're whining and your side won! Some of us learned the concepts of sportsmanship and good grace way back in elementary school. Keep in mind that democracy is much like a pendulum. It swings both ways. Gov. Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans have already exhibited a tendency toward hubris, over reaching, and tone deafness that rivals Mitt Romney. It's a given that they'll screw up sooner or later and the voters will toss them out.
Quote from: Ed W on June 06, 2012, 09:39:00 PM
Some of us learned the concepts of sportsmanship and good grace way back in elementary school.
But we/they don't make the national news, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC......
Quote from: Ed W on June 06, 2012, 09:39:00 PM
It swings both ways. Gov. Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans have already exhibited a tendency toward hubris, over reaching, and tone deafness that rivals Mitt Romney. It's a given that they'll screw up sooner or later and the voters will toss them out.
Has he not balanced the budget and isn't Wisconsin one of the leaders in job growth?
Definitely signs of poor leadership. Fire the bastard!
Quote from: Ed W on June 06, 2012, 09:39:00 PM
So, since they were on the losing side in this election, they also lost their rights to free speech and assembly?
Guido, you're whining and your side won! Some of us learned the concepts of sportsmanship and good grace way back in elementary school. Keep in mind that democracy is much like a pendulum. It swings both ways. Gov. Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans have already exhibited a tendency toward hubris, over reaching, and tone deafness that rivals Mitt Romney. It's a given that they'll screw up sooner or later and the voters will toss them out.
Ed,
He's a lawyer. Remember that and all will be clear.
As for the election - well, I think Walker is not gonna be much of a governor to the state of Wisconsin - more like our Fallin one.... but even as distasteful as he is to me, the recall was a kind of amateurish ploy. Even as big a non-supporter of Walker (and Fallin) as I am, the will of the people trumps my feelings, and I would have voted "against" just because it was an attempt to go around the previous vote. Let it ride and work to get him out the next time.
Quote from: Ed W on June 06, 2012, 09:39:00 PM
So, since they were on the losing side in this election, they also lost their rights to free speech and assembly?
Guido, you're whining and your side won! Some of us learned the concepts of sportsmanship and good grace way back in elementary school. Keep in mind that democracy is much like a pendulum. It swings both ways. Gov. Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans have already exhibited a tendency toward hubris, over reaching, and tone deafness that rivals Mitt Romney. It's a given that they'll screw up sooner or later and the voters will toss them out.
Well over half of Wisconsin didn't believe any "over reach" or "tone deafness" justified throwing Walker out. Indeed I read Walker actually got more votes this go around than he was first elected. You apparently haven't gotten over it, but the people who live there have and spoke rather loudly and unequivocally. All I just want is that whole thing to just stop and the sore losers to shut up. However, it isn't happening here and it's not happening in Wisconsin.
Oooooh. I'm so mad I could just slap someone. ::)
Quote from: guido911 on June 06, 2012, 09:54:48 PM
All I just want is that whole thing to just stop and the sore losers to shut up.
Hypocrite much? While you probably aren't the most prolific complainer about Obama, you have been the chairman of the joint chiefs of whine since day one.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 06, 2012, 09:49:41 PM
Has he not balanced the budget and isn't Wisconsin one of the leaders in job growth?
Definitely signs of poor leadership. Fire the bastard!
Yeah...that's it...if you think somewhere around 47th or so in the nation is being a "leader"...
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 06, 2012, 10:02:38 PM
Yeah...that's it...if you think somewhere around 47th or so in the nation is being a "leader"...
Leading 48, 49, & 50.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 06, 2012, 09:49:41 PM
Has he not balanced the budget and isn't Wisconsin one of the leaders in job growth?
I don't have precise numbers on hand, but looking at Wisconsin vs. the nation as a whole shouldn't be heartening to Walker supporters.
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=7OF)
Edited to use nonfarm for both, since Wisconsin only has nonfarm available.
Quote from: nathanm on June 06, 2012, 10:29:49 PM
I don't have precise numbers on hand, but looking at Wisconsin vs. the nation as a whole shouldn't be heartening to Walker supporters.
Can you post the charts for the surrounding states?
Sure!
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=7OG)
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=7OH)
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=7OI)
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=7OJ)
Quote from: nathanm on June 06, 2012, 10:43:34 PM
Sure!
Thanks.
Not exactly adjacent to WI but still part of the rust belt... How about Indiana and Ohio since those are part of a lot of comparisons.
Okie dokie..
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=7OK)
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=7OL)
I hope nobody still uses dialup on this forum... :D
Quote from: nathanm on June 06, 2012, 10:55:52 PM
Okie dokie..
I found FRED but have a ways to go to use it. I found a few graphs.
Well this didn't take long...
Anybody want to take bets on how long it will be before the next of Walker's associates is indicted?
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 06, 2012, 10:17:55 PM
Leading 48, 49, & 50.
Sounds like an Oklahoma aspiration/sales point - "we are 4th from the worst!!"
Piers Morgan sums up my view on this?
http://newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/2012-06-06-CNN-PiersMorgan-DWS.mp3
Ok Mr. McWhinerson.
Quote from: nathanm on June 07, 2012, 02:45:26 PM
Ok Mr. McWhinerson.
Coming from Clavin, biggest lefty water carrier in this place, I feel pretty good about that name. BTW, I was scheduled to have some continuing legal ed this week. Instead, I am going to just reread some of your posts and try to pass that off. Same goes for my better half and her need for continuing ed. Gassy, I tried your spicier barbecue sauce recently, I think Nate could probably improve the quality. Same goes for you RM and your environmental protection/preservation issues. Today, I read his diagnosis of Slick Willy's communication problems...
Anyone else in here need Clavin to tell you how to do your job as either a refresher or for mandatory license purposes? He's available. Heck, he'll offer up the help without an invitation.
Keep on making smile up if it makes you feel better about your hypocritical whinging.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 06, 2012, 09:49:41 PM
Has he not balanced the budget...
He did not balance the budget. He made up revenue numbers that show a balanced budget.
Read my earlier post. He is claiming a billion dollars worth of revenue next year that will probably not happen.
Anybody can say they balanced a budget if you get to make up revenue numbers.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 07, 2012, 04:27:26 PM
He did not balance the budget. He made up revenue numbers that show a balanced budget.
Read my earlier post. He is claiming a billion dollars worth of revenue next year that will probably not happen.
Anybody can say they balanced a budget if you get to make up revenue numbers.
Did you say that about the "projected" Clinton surplus?
Did you say that about all the rainbow and unicorn numbers Obama cooked up on Obamacare?
Quote from: Conan71 on June 07, 2012, 04:32:50 PM
Did you say that about the "projected" Clinton surplus?
You mean the actual surplus? All $559 billion of it in FY98-FY01?
Quote
Did you say that about all the rainbow and unicorn numbers Obama cooked up on Obamacare?
Only as rainbowy and unicorny as the figures touted for the Bush tax cuts and, like all other federal spending, measured on a 10 year horizon when considering budgetary effects. Definitely less rainbowy and unicorny than Part D. It remains to be seen if Obamacare ends up over cost projections like Part D has. It will mostly depend on whether or not the larger risk pool and the required IT upgrades produce the efficiencies that were expected.
Not that anything to do with healthcare will really be solved without far more fundamental reform. Costs aren't rising at 10-20% a year because of new government rules (were that the case, the trend would just now be starting) or any real increase in services rendered. Some argue that much of the excess cost comes from all the money spent on denying care. I know Medicare would be much better off if fraud weren't routinely ignored even when reported, but I really don't know why private insurers are so inefficient.
He is projecting a 7.4% increase in state revenue in one year. Revenue growth that ain't happening anywhere in America. He also took all the debt (that did also come in part from the previous governor), and wrote new bonds that now last until fiscal year 2031.
http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/May12/0524/0524lfbgpr.pdf
Walker didn't fix anything in the budget. He just refinanced it.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 07, 2012, 05:11:24 PM
Walker didn't fix anything in the budget. He just refinanced it.
Sounds like an underwater homeowner.
Quote from: nathanm on June 07, 2012, 04:43:05 PM
You mean the actual surplus? All $559 billion of it in FY98-FY01?
Only as rainbowy and unicorny as the figures touted for the Bush tax cuts and, like all other federal spending, measured on a 10 year horizon when considering budgetary effects. Definitely less rainbowy and unicorny than Part D. It remains to be seen if Obamacare ends up over cost projections like Part D has. It will mostly depend on whether or not the larger risk pool and the required IT upgrades produce the efficiencies that were expected.
Not that anything to do with healthcare will really be solved without far more fundamental reform. Costs aren't rising at 10-20% a year because of new government rules (were that the case, the trend would just now be starting) or any real increase in services rendered. Some argue that much of the excess cost comes from all the money spent on denying care. I know Medicare would be much better off if fraud weren't routinely ignored even when reported, but I really don't know why private insurers are so inefficient.
I'm addressing RM, but since you inserted yourself, you are missing the point I'm making that at one point, Clinton's surpluses were PROJECTED and not actual. Just curious if he was bellowing about projections when it was one of "his" guys.
No one is arguing the
GOP-led Congress Clinton surplus didn't exist.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 07, 2012, 01:31:31 PM
Sounds like an Oklahoma aspiration/sales point - "we are 4th from the worst!!"
You just have to know how to present the data, which I'm sure you do seeing some of your posts. :D
It reminds me of the race between a Russian and American car during the cold war.
It was just the two cars. The American car won but in Pravda it was announced that:
The Russian car placed second.
The American car placed next to last.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 06, 2012, 12:13:53 PM
CNN is biased.
Walker raised ten times the money the unions did. Much of it came from out-of-state interests, including millions from the Koch brothers. The only sure thing about this election is that it confirms that whichever side spends the most money usually wins.
Here's an update of the amount spent by the campaigns over this recall.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2012/06/06/gJQAKAyiJV_graphic.html
Why oh why has no one posted this pic before?
(http://kaystreet.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/imperialwalker-1024x768.jpg)
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 07, 2012, 05:55:40 PM
You just have to know how to present the data, which I'm sure you do seeing some of your posts. :D
It reminds me of the race between a Russian and American car during the cold war.
It was just the two cars. The American car won but in Pravda it was announced that:
The Russian car placed second.
The American car placed next to last.
50 samples. Even I just can't see how to make that sound good. But then, I'm not politician, either - too many good morals.
Quote from: guido911 on June 07, 2012, 06:37:25 PM
Here's an update of the amount spent by the campaigns over this recall.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2012/06/06/gJQAKAyiJV_graphic.html
Hmmm, the Dims forgot all about that extra $18mm spent from "other sources" for their guy.
A "Thank You" to the people behind the recall...
QuoteSo thank you Mike Tate, Graeme Zielinski , Fred " Loonie " Levenhagen , Ismael Ozanne , Maryanne Sumi , Noble Ray, Charles Tubbs , Joanne Kloppenberg , Segway Boy, John Chisolm , public employee union members, UW TA's , WEAC , SEIU , MTI , AFSCME Council 24 in Union Grove and WI prison guards,. Thanks for the death threats, the intimidation, the bullying, belligerence, thuggery and goonish behavior. The lack of ethics and the failure to enforce rules and laws. Thank you for putting your selfish, greedy motives on display for all taxpayers to see.
Your antics might have made you feel good but they didn't make you look good. They sickened the rest of us.
Thank you Shirley Abrahamson and Ann Walsh Bradley. Your petty politics woke us up. Thank you Miles Kristan for dumping the beer on Robin Vos's head. Thank you University doctors for writing the phony excuses; Madison teachers for calling in sick or dragging your students to the protests without permission. Thank you Katherine Windels for making death threats against the Governor. The noontime capitol singers who taunted Sheboygan high school students. Thank you WEA Trust for raping Wisconsin taxpayers. Thank you Gwen Moore for your embarrassing minstrel show. And thanks all of you for harassing the Walker family at their private home.
http://www.livinglakecountry.com/blogs/communityblogs/158162085.html