http://www8.tulsaschools.org/4_About_District/project_schoolhouse.asp
This is an effort to be more efficient with limited school dollars. There are public meetings and they include potentially closing schools.
There are meetings including one tomorrow night at Webster High School.
For all those who want equity, efficiency and effectiveness in government, this is your best example. I suspect whatever comes out of this project, people will be upset. As much as I love the schools I went to, there are no sacred cows now.
If you have an opinion, go share it.
I don't understand why some people are against closing and consolidating schools. Why should we continue to pay for a school when it is not needed? I guess some people would rather see the neighborhood school continue to struggle than bus their kids to a school where they could flourish. But just like RM said, there will always be those that complain.
I hope whatever plan comes out of this is a good one...I think it will be.
I hope Webster doesn't land on the chopping block. It's the only H.S. west of the river. To lose it would really kill the community.
A new article:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=332&articleid=20110221_11_0_Rsdnst694614
It doesn't make sense to me, why these people are so intent on keeping their schools open... ???
If the people quoted in the story are products of the schools in the area, they are making a strong case at closing underperforming and under-utilized schools. I have a feeling some of them are the same people who write in the reader comments section of the Tulsa World. Whew!
It's amazing how the people fighting to "save" their school have never done anything to improve the school they want to save. Where were they on back-to-school night and parent-teacher conferences, and how active are they in the PTA? Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush, but talk to teachers at poor performing schools (and not just TPS, but the surrounding suburban schools districts as well) and they describe poor turnout for conferences and how little involvment they can get out of parents.
Quote from: DTowner on February 22, 2011, 02:24:35 PM
It's amazing how the people fighting to "save" their school have never done anything to improve the school they want to save. Where were they on back-to-school night and parent-teacher conferences, and how active are they in the PTA? Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush, but talk to teachers at poor performing schools (and not just TPS, but the surrounding suburban schools districts as well) and they describe poor turnout for conferences and how little involvment they can get out of parents.
Ain't muh job. Dat's edumacator's job.
Quote from: DTowner on February 22, 2011, 02:24:35 PM
It's amazing how the people fighting to "save" their school have never done anything to improve the school they want to save. Where were they on back-to-school night and parent-teacher conferences, and how active are they in the PTA? Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush, but talk to teachers at poor performing schools (and not just TPS, but the surrounding suburban schools districts as well) and they describe poor turnout for conferences and how little involvment they can get out of parents.
Interesting point. It seems there is a night and day difference between public and private schools when it comes to parental involvement.
Quote from: guido911 on February 22, 2011, 02:38:22 PM
Interesting point. It seems there is a night and day difference between public and private schools when it comes to parental involvement.
Writing a check to the school makes a parent want to make sure cylinders are all hitting.
Getting taxed just makes the rest of the parents feel like they have the right to complain about anything whether they take part or not.
Quote from: Townsend on February 22, 2011, 02:43:01 PM
Writing a check to the school makes a parent want to make sure cylinders are all hitting.
Getting taxed just makes the rest of the parents feel like they have the right to complain about anything whether they take part or not.
Or for people who breed responsibly, they show up at their kid's public school events and volunteer in the classroom.
I think the article wasn't a clear showing of north Tulsa attitude's toward schools. Instead it was a clear display of north Tulsa's attitude toward "the establishment".
The same people go to all meetings in north Tulsa held by the city, the school district, INCOG or any other government group. They all say the same things at all the meetings.
There is some clear distrust between a vocal faction in north Tulsa and the rest of the city and there are some good reasons from past dealings. Unfortunately, the reason for this meeting was about the future and not the past.
Quote from: Townsend on February 22, 2011, 02:43:01 PM
Writing a check to the school makes a parent want to make sure cylinders are all hitting.
Getting taxed just makes the rest of the parents feel like they have the right to complain about anything whether they take part or not.
You are probably right. Also, private schools seem to have a more comfortable, almost familial feel about it. In fact, it is not unusual to have e-mail correspondence with a teacher late into the evenings (although this may happen in public schools).
My kids are in Tulsa PUBLIC Schools and I get my kids grades and assignments mailed to me on a very regular basis.
I get spelling and reading assignments by e-mail for my daughter every Sunday night and on Wednesdays. I get my son's grade for every assignment mailed on Sundays from each of his six teachers and an e-mail showing attendence and grade summary once-a-week as well.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on February 22, 2011, 03:12:17 PM
My kids are in Tulsa PUBLIC Schools and I get my kids grades and assignments mailed to me on a very regular basis.
I should've clarified and I meant no disrespect.
I know many friends with kids in public school around the area and take part in their kids' activities/Parent-teacher/grades and school work.
The system has gotten better imo. Information is so much easier to get now than ever before.
I'm dissatisfied with the parents out there that pass all blame to everyone/thing but themselves
Quote from: RecycleMichael on February 22, 2011, 03:12:17 PM
My kids are in Tulsa PUBLIC Schools and I get my kids grades and assignments mailed to me on a very regular basis.
I get spelling and reading assignments by e-mail for my daughter every Sunday night and on Wednesdays. I get my son's grade for every assignment mailed on Sundays from each of his six teachers and an e-mail showing attendence and grade summary once-a-week as well.
I think there are a number of TPS schools with active and engaged parents. Probably not coincidentally, those are also the higher performing schools.
Many of the schools don't even have a PTA.
It is sad. Some of my best friends are the parents of kids in the same grade as my kid.
Look what is happening in Detroit.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/22/news/economy/detroit_school_restructuring/
Quote from: guido911 on February 22, 2011, 08:07:56 PM
Look what is happening in Detroit.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/22/news/economy/detroit_school_restructuring/
But Chrysler's Superbowl ad says steel forged by fire is stronger and that Detroit is back!
my ten cents
I have been serving overseas for the last 6 years and two times a year I come back home and visit my son and family. In April of 2010 I moved back home permanently taking residence about 3 blocks away from Salk elementary and Byrd Middle School. This is where I have grown up for the 27 years of my life. Since the closing of some TPS north side schools there has been buses of kids coming from the low income north side area. This has caused many middle/high income parents to flee this area and take residence in more prominent school areas (south and north) like Jenks, Union, BA, and Owasso. The neighborhood around Salk and Byrd Specifically 57th St has been reclassified to section 8 housing bringing low income people to the surrounding area. This in turn brings down the prices of housing and land around this entire area. Not only are you responsible for running down the property value but higher crime rates as well. Just go back and reflect on the crime rate in this neighborhood and probably other neighborhoods like this one before the onset of buses from the north side closures. When you decide to ship children to our side of town you also influence those people that don't care to move into apartments close to these schools. The people who are on welfare and state assistance that don't work have no problem moving here because they have the money. Unfortunately these kind of people bring crime, drugs, and gangs.
The biggest concern is traditionally and unfortunately a very large percentage of the people in low income areas do not care about their children's education nor do they discipline their children. How many times do you have to have a child sitting in your office because of a behavior offense and you can't reach his parents ever. Get a clue please. Letting these low income north side children into the south side school system you are punishing parents that care and want their kids to have a fair education.
I propose keeping some of the north side schools open and stop busing them to prominent neighborhoods and give our kids a chance. You must stop making it harder for the parents and kids that do care. I am tired of seeing the influx of people making this neighborhood and our schools unattractive. I now have to send my son to a private school so not to subject him to a classroom environment where it is impossible to learn because of crowding, behavior problems, drugs, and gangs.
sent to tps
Since when did 57th St. get certified as Section 8? I don't believe HUD certifies entire streets or blocks, they certify based on properties or property owners willing to accept sec. 8.
Just curious as I used to live on 74th E. Ave about a block north of the Byrd/Salk compound and it's an interesting development if this has really happened.
My brother (and sister-in-law) used to live in that area. They said the neighborhood had declined in recent years. My brother took a job out of town. They had a difficult time selling their house. Even if they had stayed in town, they wanted out of that neighborhood. They never said anything about the school kids though.
In midtown it makes more sense to close Barnard and Phillips, splitting Barnard's district into Lee (north of 21st) and Eliot (south of 21st) and combining Phillips' district with Patrick Henry's.
I also think the district needs to tighten its rules regarding transfers, and that no school should be over 50% transfers and really should not be over 25%. More magnet programs would also be great; I really like the idea of turning Rogers into a magnet high school.
Great infill opportunity at Barnard, just so long as Bumgarner isn't allowed to participate in any RFP's. It would be great to see something keeping in character with the neighborhood instead of Tuscan dreck.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 03:57:35 PM
Great infill opportunity at Barnard, just so long as Bumgarner isn't allowed to participate in any RFP's. It would be great to see something keeping in character with the neighborhood instead of Tuscan dreck.
Multi family....my alma mater :'(
Quote from: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 03:57:35 PM
Great infill opportunity at Barnard, just so long as Bumgarner isn't allowed to participate in any RFP's. It would be great to see something keeping in character with the neighborhood instead of Tuscan dreck.
According to "concerned parent" on KRMG, Barnard is a poor school serving an underprivileged african-american community...
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 30, 2011, 04:05:46 PM
Multi family....my alma mater :'(
Most of the homes look like single family, not duplexes or more. Should I look a little further?
Edit: forgot to say I was using street view on google maps
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 30, 2011, 04:10:03 PM
According to "concerned parent" on KRMG, Barnard is a poor school serving an underprivileged african-american community...
St Johns employs a lot of folks in the area, who enroll their children close to where they work. Not everyone is making a Doctor's salary there either.
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 30, 2011, 04:10:03 PM
According to "concerned parent" on KRMG, Barnard is a poor school serving an underprivileged african-american community...
Yeah we heard that too.
On Monday I bet my wife a dollar that there would be some crying parent on the news screaming "Racism!" before the week was over. Wait for it. . .Wait for it. . .
Quote from: YoungTulsan on March 30, 2011, 04:23:32 PM
St Johns employs a lot of folks in the area, who enroll their children close to where they work. Not everyone is making a Doctor's salary there either.
I would imagine some kind of private school or daycare would move in once TPS vacates. St. John might even be interested.
This is what needs to happen.....Although I didnt see Phillips on the list......The idea of doing K thruogh 8 sounds like a good idea as well as long as its done properly.....
Here's the list:
http://www8.tulsaschools.org/4_About_District/_documents/pdf/_Project_Schoolhouse/ClosingSummaries.pdf (http://www8.tulsaschools.org/4_About_District/_documents/pdf/_Project_Schoolhouse/ClosingSummaries.pdf)
Wilson Middle School closing would be interesting in that their large property fronts 11th St by TU. That could be an opportunity for TU to expand in that direction. That's right next to where they are renovating the old Campbell Hotel.
Quote from: Breadburner on March 30, 2011, 05:06:04 PM
The idea of doing K thruogh 8 sounds like a good idea as well as long as its done properly.....
Michael Jackson, is that you?
Quote from: SXSW on March 30, 2011, 09:13:24 PM
Wilson Middle School closing would be interesting in that their large property fronts 11th St by TU. That could be an opportunity for TU to expand in that direction. That's right next to where they are renovating the old Campbell Hotel.
TPS is sitting on some valuable properties which have also become costly to maintain properly.
I really don't see a private school taking over the Barnard site, the real estate is worth far too much and that building, though it's had improvements dates to the mid 1920's if memory serves me correctly. I would guess there's a fair amount of deferred maintenance there which would be too much for a private school to shoulder. Aside from that, you've got Monte Casino and Cascia just to the south.
I've seen photos of former schools like this converted to really hip apartments or condos. However, go walk around that lot, it's HUGE, and it's a prime spot to build something far more dense there. Multi family on that site wouldn't be terribly incongruous as there's a small condo or apartment development directly to the east of it across Lewis.
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 30, 2011, 04:10:03 PM
According to "concerned parent" on KRMG, Barnard is a poor school serving an underprivileged african-american community...
It kind of is.
It is a odd school demographic. 84% of the students who live in Barnard boundary transfer out to a different school and 94% of the students who go to Barnard transfer in from a different area. The transfers in came almost exclusively from north Tulsa schools.
I am fascinated by this. 77% of the kids are black and their parents drive them some distance to a school in a rich neighborhood (17th and Lewis), but the kids who live near this school get their kids into the magnet elementary schools.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 10:30:46 PM
Michael Jackson, is that you?
Haha...Nice...You are learning....
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 10:50:52 PM
It kind of is.
It is a odd school demographic. 84% of the students who live in Barnard boundary transfer out to a different school and 94% of the students who go to Barnard transfer in from a different area. The transfers in came almost exclusively from north Tulsa schools.
I am fascinated by this. 77% of the kids are black and their parents drive them some distance to a school in a rich neighborhood (17th and Lewis), but the kids who live near this school get their kids into the magnet elementary schools.
RM, can you answer me this:
I went to Barnard from '73 through '77 and it was a wonderful school. It was an experimental program at that point as many elementary schools still used one teacher for the entire day. From 2nd grade through 5th, I had a different teacher and different distinct subject each hour with rotating arts for 5th or 6th hour (art, drama, music).
In recent years, I'd heard it was a magnet school then a pilot school. What exactly is a pilot school?
IMO, it seems like a school with nearly a 100% volunteer student enrollment would be a vital asset to a school district unless it served a purpose which will now be dispersed throughout the school system. So why the rush to close it, or in spite of the transfer figures, is it only serving 200 students?
I think pilot was a generic term used for start-up magnet school. Barnard had an enrollment of 236 students in 6 grades (K-5).
I think that efficient schools have a few more students than that per school. It is hard to justify the expense of any pull-out teacher (PE, music, art) with so few kids.
Bottom line, TPS has 30 more schools and the same number of students than it had 40 years ago. These proposals cut that overage number in half.
We use to be in Barnard's district. We toured it prior to sending our kids there, and decided to transfer out. Having said that, I didn't think it was nearly as bad as some other schools. I think it is very unfortunate that Barnard is slated for closing. Barnard is a contributing structure in the Yorktown historic district, so not just anything can go in there in its place. Ideally, the structure should be reused. There are several reasons that Barnard has transfer in/transfer out rates like it does--
1. Many years ago, Barnard was one of the top schools in Tulsa--right up there with Lee & Carnegie. Then they hired a really bad principal. That principal stayed there for many years, and drove a lot of families away. Subsequent principals tried to turn it around, and attract more students (through the pilot & magnet program), but once you get a bad reputation in TPS, it takes years to turn that around.
2. Barnard's home school region precludes it from ever attracting that many kids. Yes, Yorktown is part of the region, but most of Barnard's district extends south, into one of Tulsa's wealthiest areas (Woodycrest & east of Utica Square). I don't know if "transfer out" includes those attending private schools, but I suspect that the majority of kids in that area do not & will not attend public schools regardless of their home school.
3. A large number of the "transfer in" students are children of St. John's employees. Obviously, very convenient for them to have their kids nearby work.
I hope that they give this some very serious thought. I understand the need to close schools down. But the fact that there is such a significant number that WANT to come to Barnard should be considered. I don't know that any other school on the closing list that has attracted so many kids.
Ideally, I think that Barnard should be transformed into the Chinese immersion program that has been discussed for years. It was suppose to be at Grimes, but if Grimes is combined with Mayo or closed, Barnard would be a great alternative.
RM--I feel sorry for your wife. This is going to be a tough process.
Quote from: pmcalk on March 31, 2011, 08:30:40 AM
Ideally, I think that Barnard should be transformed into the Chinese immersion program that has been discussed for years. It was suppose to be at Grimes, but if Grimes is combined with Mayo or closed, Barnard would be a great alternative.
That would be a great use. But...I fear TPS realizes they have a valuable site on their hands and will want to sell whereas a school like Phillips, with little visibility near 36th & Hudson, would be a better option for "reuse" as a magnet school.
Let's talk a little bit about the transfer process and magnet schools. No doubt schools like BTW, Eisenhower, Carver, and others have benefitted from magnet school programs by attracting the best students and teachers.
By allowing the best students to transfer out of their home district and concentrate into a handful of schools, that takes the best students out of neighborhood schools which also helps lower average test scores. Better students usually come from families who are involved in the education process and who volunteer at schools. Better students also tend to have better leadership qualities.
IOW, magnet schools might improve the learning experience for exceptional students, but it also has the effect of cherry-picking the best students throughout the district and therefore lowering the performance at other schools.
There ain't a perfect school system.
The magnet schools accept students that qualify. B.T. Washington admits any qualified student in any middle school from Wilson to the north. A qualified student means a 3.0 grade average, no suspensions, minimal absentees and in the top half of their class in test scores. Other areas of town have to get lucky to get into Washington and the waiting list of qualified students is as long as the admited list.
Yes, these are the better students. But they are not impossible standards intended to only take the cream off the top. I think it gives students in middle school a solid reason to try hard. The kids, not just the parents, have to want them to get into a better school.
Magnet schools are a carrot. Yes, that carrot sometimes gets preferential teachers.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 31, 2011, 10:36:05 AM
There ain't a perfect school system.
The magnet schools accept students that qualify. B.T. Washington admits any qualified student in any middle school from Wilson to the north. A qualified student means a 3.0 grade average, no suspensions, minimal absentees and in the top half of their class in test scores. Other areas of town have to get lucky to get into Washington and the waiting list of qualified students is as long as the admited list.
Yes, these are the better students. But they are not impossible standards intended to only take the cream off the top. I think it gives students in middle school a solid reason to try hard. The kids, not just the parents, have to want them to get into a better school.
Magnet schools are a carrot. Yes, that carrot sometimes gets preferential teachers.
Please understand I'm not dissing the system, but it was a thought that came to me as we were talking about Barnard. If schools on the north side and poorer areas lose their best students, it sort of brings the schools down further. At the same time, is it right to deprive a bright child of an opportunity which might not exist at their neighborhood school? That's a tough balancing act.
Quote from: SXSW on March 31, 2011, 09:17:23 AM
That would be a great use. But...I fear TPS realizes they have a valuable site on their hands and will want to sell whereas a school like Phillips, with little visibility near 36th & Hudson, would be a better option for "reuse" as a magnet school.
TPS laid out the specifics of what to consider when determining school closings, and value of the land was not one of them. If it did factor into the equation, I know a lot of people would be very angry. I also wonder how valuable that land really is. It's HP zoned, and surrounded on all 4 sides by residential. Switching even one small house to an office use was a long, drawn out battle that resulted in the Lewis study (which put some significant restrictions on switching to commercial). I don't see that it would be converted to a commercial use.
I have seen examples of schools converted into a multifamily building, which might be kind of cool, though.
FYI, it's astounding how much traffic you see at 36th & Hudson, particularly at 5pm. That might lessen after they fix the disaster at 41st, though.
Here's a good example of adaptive re-use:
http://www.mcmenamins.com/427-kennedy-school-home
http://www.mcmenamins.com/421-old-st-francis-school-home
The former Lincoln Elementary at 15th & Peoria is a great local example of it.
http://historictulsa.blogspot.com/2009/09/belleviewlincoln-elementary-school-1909.html
Quote from: SXSW on March 30, 2011, 09:13:24 PM
Wilson Middle School closing would be interesting in that their large property fronts 11th St by TU. That could be an opportunity for TU to expand in that direction. That's right next to where they are renovating the old Campbell Hotel.
I think this would be a great spot for a cool mixed use with a hotel;the auditorium at Wilson is nice and would make a great event space. How many hotels have basket ball courts?
Quote from: carltonplace on March 31, 2011, 02:34:01 PM
I think this would be a great spot for a cool mixed use with a hotel;the auditorium at Wilson is nice and would make a great event space. How many hotels have basket ball courts?
Might work better being acquired by TU. The Guido School of Politics at TU?
Barnard would make a great gated community but I don't know about the ROI and risk in this housing market. Although, Teatown is better off than anywhere in Arizona where %70 of homeowners are under water.
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 31, 2011, 02:37:38 PM
Although, Teatown is better off than anywhere in Arizona where %70 of homeowners are under water.
Have they had a lot of rain lately?
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 31, 2011, 02:37:38 PM
Might work better being acquired by TU. The Guido School of Politics at TU?
Barnard would make a great gated community but I don't know about the ROI and risk in this housing market. Although, Teatown is better off than anywhere in Arizona where %70 of homeowners are under water.
I'm sure TU would be interested. They could use it as a research facility/conference center, who knows. Redevelopment of that site would certainly help the Renaissance neighborhood, which is more rundown past Columbia though getting better each year.
The Yorktown neighborhood is pretty desirable so if they wanted the land for new homes or townhouses they would sell. Not sure how that jives with HP overlay zoning, does it affect new development or just existing structures?
QuoteAlthough, Teatown is better off than anywhere in Arizona where %70 of homeowners are under water.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 31, 2011, 03:07:22 PM
Have they had a lot of rain lately?
Actually the weather has been great, and we had really good attendance for Cactus League spring training, near record numbers.
Quote from: dbacks fan on March 31, 2011, 06:12:50 PM
Actually the weather has been great, and we had really good attendance for Cactus League spring training, near record numbers.
Good. After the post that 70% of Arizona home owners are under water I wondered if I missed something on the news.
;D
Quote from: SXSW on March 31, 2011, 05:57:52 PM
I'm sure TU would be interested. They could use it as a research facility/conference center, who knows. Redevelopment of that site would certainly help the Renaissance neighborhood, which is more rundown past Columbia though getting better each year.
The Yorktown neighborhood is pretty desirable so if they wanted the land for new homes or townhouses they would sell. Not sure how that jives with HP overlay zoning, does it affect new development or just existing structures?
It affects new construction, too.
I just figured they would all be turned into nursing homes.
Too bad TPS has to go to extremes to save money, and not do lots of little things that have worked elsewhere (like turning off their all-night floodlighting).
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 31, 2011, 06:23:55 PM
Good. After the post that 70% of Arizona home owners are under water I wondered if I missed something on the news.
;D
I won't say that it isn't bad here, but it's not what was stated.