A friend sent this link to a piece on the New York Times. Now, before some of you have a snit over that supposed 'liberal rag', go and actually READ the piece! Here's a snippet:
"...Prime Minister Jigmi Thinley asked the decisive economic question of our time: "As all our people rise above the threats of basic survival, what will our collective endeavor be as a progressive society?"
He proposed an answer. Let us, he said, make "the conscious pursuit of happiness" a new pillar of global cooperation, the "ninth Millennium Development Goal." "
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/02/opinion/global/02iht-GA04Sachs.html?_r=1&ref=iht-year-end (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/02/opinion/global/02iht-GA04Sachs.html?_r=1&ref=iht-year-end)
It's thought provoking because the basic premise - that the pursuit of wealth and more material goods do not bring happiness in themselves, and that people need to actively pursue happiness - runs counter to our western "mo money=mo happy" mindset.
I have a co-worker who says that while it may be true that more money doesn't bring happiness, he'd still like to experience that for himself.
That liberal rag? ;)
Happy New Year, Ed!
Quote from: Ed W on December 27, 2010, 10:40:15 AM
It's thought provoking because the basic premise - that the pursuit of wealth and more material goods do not bring happiness in themselves, and that people need to actively pursue happiness - runs counter to our western "mo money=mo happy" mindset.
I am willing to make the sacrifice to help you achieve happiness. PM me and I'll give you the information for you to send me your money.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 27, 2010, 11:31:10 AM
I am willing to make the sacrifice to help you achieve happiness. PM me and I'll give you the information for you to send me your money.
Red,
Money cannot buy happiness. Only true spiritual awakening can provide happiness. Send me any money you receive from this post, and I will provide the information necessary to put you on the path to happiness.
Others are also welcome to take advantage of this limited time offer. ;D
As it was explained to me one time...
"Money ain't everything.... but it is way ahead of what's in second place"
Quote from: Gaspar on December 27, 2010, 12:25:36 PM
Red,
Money cannot buy happiness. Only true spiritual awakening can provide happiness. Send me any money you receive from this post, and I will provide the information necessary to put you on the path to happiness.
Others are also welcome to take advantage of this limited time offer. ;D
I'm so %^&$##@ happy I can't stand it. I need some money to regain my equilibrium.
In all seriousness, the pursuit of happiness is third only to Life and Liberty (both necessary for happiness).
The failure in this article is to identify what happiness is.
After a little thought, it's obvious. :D
What is happiness? Is it not different for everyone? Yes! That is why capitalism works so well.
Because everyone's happiness is different we need some common method of quantifying it. Eureka! we have one. It's called money.
Money is simply a representation of happiness. When you make someone happy, they give you money.
At work, you are rewarded for making your boss happy with money.
You take that money shopping and when you find something that makes you happy you reward someone else with money.
The entire exchange of currency is based on providing happiness.
All business, is based on making people happy. Products and services carry a specific "happiness value" or price. Businesses compete by seeing who can make people the happiest. Entrepreneurs are people who identify new ways of making people happy. Scientists dedicate their lives to discovering new happy things, and teachers educate children on how to be happy.
So, actually money can buy you happiness. That's its primary purpose.
The logic would follow that having the most money does not make you happy, spending the most money does! :D
That was easy!
Quote from: Gaspar on December 27, 2010, 01:10:30 PM
Because everyone's happiness is different we need some common method of quantifying it. Eureka! we have one. It's called money.
Money is simply a representation of happiness. When you make someone happy, they give you money.
So, actually money can buy you happiness. That's its primary purpose.
The logic would follow that having the most money does not make you happy, spending the most money does! :D
That was easy!
So, if money does bring happiness, why spend time here (when, after all, time is money) and why waste that valuable time in an effort that brings (1) no money and (2) a modest amount of vexation?
In truth, there's very little snark contained in that question. We all need money to get by in life, but my take away from that article is that once the basic needs are met, we should pursue that which brings us the most happiness. And it's certainly correct that the pursuit of happiness is an individual one. Also, if the quest for wealth and material goods makes you happy, then have at it.
It's tough to find that balance between the need to make a living and a desire to have fun in life. And I think we all need something we can feel passionately about, whether that's politics, art, or even trout fishing.
Quote from: Ed W on December 27, 2010, 01:43:25 PM
So, if money does bring happiness, why spend time here (when, after all, time is money) and why waste that valuable time in an effort that brings (1) no money and (2) a modest amount of vexation?
In truth, there's very little snark contained in that question. We all need money to get by in life, but my take away from that article is that once the basic needs are met, we should pursue that which brings us the most happiness. And it's certainly correct that the pursuit of happiness is an individual one. Also, if the quest for wealth and material goods makes you happy, then have at it.
It's tough to find that balance between the need to make a living and a desire to have fun in life. And I think we all need something we can feel passionately about, whether that's politics, art, or even trout fishing.
Almost . . .but you missed one important part of my post. You make the (old) assertion that "Time is money." It is not. You also assume that happiness is only available through the exchange of money. It is not. The exchange is not exclusive.
There are a vast many ways that people can explore happiness, however "making money" requires that they make
someone else happy.
What a beautiful thing. Money represents the ability of one person to make other people happy. So, to "pursue wealth" is to pursue the happiness of others.
You mention this forum. . .yes it makes me happy to interact, read, and voice opinion.
Someone is getting money for the domain registration, the monthly hosting, and the support. Someone received money from the design, and hopefully SMF received a donation for the use of their excellent discussion engine. The server, software, security, hardware, and connection all require the exchange of money.
Without this exchange of money we couldn't enjoy the happiness we get from spending time here.
Money is a representation of value, not happiness. Happiness and value are two different things, though they might periodically coincide. For instance, money can buy you a barrel full of oil. A barrel of oil has value but almost definitely does not directly represent happiness for anyone. The value that a barrel full of oil represents is more for its usefulness in refining or in further processing than in happiness in itself.
Conversely, being in love with your wife, or seeing a gorgeous mountain view, or completing a painting are all "happy" things, yet none can realistically be bought with money. Buying your wife flowers on your anniversary, or paying to walk up the observation tower on the mountaintop, or selling the painting are all moments where value and happiness might intersect, but they aren't the same thing, and there are moments where the love for your wife is simply love, or the mountaintop view is something you stumble upon while hiking and your painting is mounted on your wall for decades and decades without anyone else knowing.
Quote from: we vs us on December 27, 2010, 02:14:00 PM
Money is a representation of value, not happiness. Happiness and value are two different things, though they might periodically coincide. For instance, money can buy you a barrel full of oil. A barrel of oil has value but almost definitely does not directly represent happiness for anyone. The value that a barrel full of oil represents is more for its usefulness in refining or in further processing than in happiness in itself.
Conversely, being in love with your wife, or seeing a gorgeous mountain view, or completing a painting are all "happy" things, yet none can realistically be bought with money. Buying your wife flowers on your anniversary, or paying to walk up the observation tower on the mountaintop, or selling the painting are all moments where value and happiness might intersect, but they aren't the same thing, and there are moments where the love for your wife is simply love, or the mountaintop view is something you stumble upon while hiking and your painting is mounted on your wall for decades and decades without anyone else knowing.
Again We vs us, the two are not exclusive to each other. There are many ways to be happy that do not require the exchange of money, however the exchange of money does require happiness.
You use the term "value." I'm sorry to say, but value is quantitative and also related to happiness.
In your example:
QuoteFor instance, money can buy you a barrel full of oil. A barrel of oil has value but almost definitely does not directly represent happiness for anyone. The value that a barrel full of oil represents is more for its usefulness in refining or in further processing than in happiness in itself.
Incorrect. You cite the means, but not the end. The barrel of oil becomes something of value to those who wish to produce gasoline, cosmetics, plastic toys, seat belts, and whoopee cushions, all of which have a "value" measured in happiness. The money exchanged for these items goes to the original purchase of your barrel of oil.
All I know about money and happiness is this:
In my "other" lifetime, I lived in a large house in a desireable neighborhood in south Tulsa on a good size lot with a large pool, traded cars pretty frequent to stay in a fresher car, had multiple expensive toys at different times ranging from antique Harleys and race cars, to an airplane. I had a great job as a young buck-stud regional manager for a chemical company and the sky was the limit. My ex-wife had a great job and we were living the materialistic American dream, yet I always felt like something was missing.
All it took was getting the news my brother had been killed in a car wreck to realize true success in life wasn't a large house, big bank account, or a bunch of things monuments to my ego to maintain, insure, and make payments on. True success is leaving this earth a little better off than it was when you got here. To that end, I realized my brother, though he was of much humbler means, was the run-away success of the family.
I also realized true wealth isn't what you "own" it's what you "have". You can't measure real wealth in dollars or material goods because those things have nothing to do with wealth. Riches maybe, but not wealth.
I now live in a house that is less than 1/2 that size, drive an 11 year old pick up, have one motorcycle, and pretty much the rest of my "toys" are my bicycles and associated equipment I use to stay in good health. I have everything I need and most everything I want.
I'm 10 times happier with a lot fewer things to look after and worry about. I finally quit being concerned over what others thought of me or the kinds of things I needed to have to "appear" successful. My true idea of success now is the legacy of raising two amazing daughters who really appreciate the truly important things in life.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 27, 2010, 02:28:10 PM
All I know about money and happiness is this:
In my "other" lifetime, I lived in a large house in a desireable neighborhood in south Tulsa on a good size lot with a large pool, traded cars pretty frequent to stay in a fresher car, had multiple expensive toys at different times ranging from antique Harleys and race cars, to an airplane. I had a great job as a young buck-stud regional manager for a chemical company and the sky was the limit. My ex-wife had a great job and we were living the materialistic American dream, yet I always felt like something was missing.
All it took was getting the news my brother had been killed in a car wreck to realize true success in life wasn't a large house, big bank account, or a bunch of things monuments to my ego to maintain, insure, and make payments on. True success is leaving this earth a little better off than it was when you got here. To that end, I realized my brother, though he was of much humbler means, was the run-away success of the family.
I also realized true wealth isn't what you "own" it's what you "have". You can't measure real wealth in dollars or material goods because those things have nothing to do with wealth. Riches maybe, but not wealth.
I now live in a house that is less than 1/2 that size, drive an 11 year old pick up, have one motorcycle, and pretty much the rest of my "toys" are my bicycles and associated equipment I use to stay in good health. I have everything I need and most everything I want.
I'm 10 times happier with a lot fewer things to look after and worry about. I finally quit being concerned over what others thought of me or the kinds of things I needed to have to "appear" successful. My true idea of success now is the legacy of raising two amazing daughters who really appreciate the truly important things in life.
And you're a registered Republican? Wow! You might get excommunicated from the party.
;)
But seriously, that's all it does take. Two of my best friends were killed, one in a motorcycle accident and one by suicide a mere week after I have re-established contact with him after years. I realized material crap matters very little. I have a three year old car, live in a 1200 sq ft house near the Traffic Circle and have a modest job that allows me to make enough money to help out my mother by staying with her and helping on bills and other things. I'm suited to that just fine.
I was thinking along similar lines. While money may be symbol for happiness, it doesn't bring happiness as a direct result of having possession of it. And I was trying to think of an example showing happiness in the absence of any type of monetary exchange. Money is a tool and happiness results from what we can accomplish with that tool.
Here's another way to look at it. Are you happier with a five dollar bill or a ten dollar bill? My view is that what you can do with the bill makes you happy, not the bill itself. And there's a point where the number of bills you have is irrelevant to finding happiness.
Quote from: Hoss on December 27, 2010, 02:31:02 PM
And you're a registered Republican? Wow! You might get excommunicated from the party.
;)
He's too smart to be Republican and too in touch with reality to be Democrat.
Must be a Libertarian.
Quote from: Ed W on December 27, 2010, 02:33:51 PM
I was thinking along similar lines. While money may be symbol for happiness, it doesn't bring happiness as a direct result of having possession of it. And I was trying to think of an example showing happiness in the absence of any type of monetary exchange. Money is a tool and happiness results from what we can accomplish with that tool.
Here's another way to look at it. Are you happier with a five dollar bill or a ten dollar bill? My view is that what you can do with the bill makes you happy, not the bill itself. And there's a point where the number of bills you have is irrelevant to finding happiness.
You've got it!
Take it a step further though. Money is simply a scrap of paper that says "You've made me this happy-XX."
If you hold a $10 bill you've made someone twice as happy as if you hold a $5 bill. You can't cash in that reward until you spend it, and what makes you happy may be quantified independently to what makes me or Conan happy.
The money is a tool, but it's acquisition requires you to make someone happy.
Quote from: Gaspar on December 27, 2010, 02:34:22 PM
He's too smart to be Republican and too in touch with reality to be Democrat.
Must be a Libertarian.
Note I qualified with 'registered'?
I know Conan's alignments. Closer to mine than you think.
Quote from: Ed W on December 27, 2010, 02:33:51 PM
I was thinking along similar lines. While money may be symbol for happiness, it doesn't bring happiness as a direct result of having possession of it. And I was trying to think of an example showing happiness in the absence of any type of monetary exchange. Money is a tool and happiness results from what we can accomplish with that tool.
Here's another way to look at it. Are you happier with a five dollar bill or a ten dollar bill? My view is that what you can do with the bill makes you happy, not the bill itself. And there's a point where the number of bills you have is irrelevant to finding happiness.
Undoubtedly, I'd probably be a lot less happy if I didn't have a roof over my head or no truck to drive in the cold weather (nor the means to buy one). I think we all make a decision at some point about how much is "enough" for us to be happy. Some find that's less than others. Some people place a higher value on material items than others.
I could still be traveling all over the place making great bank for that chemical company and be entirely estranged from my daughters and have no other real relationships in my life. Instead, I'm in a work situation, that while I've had some great years here, I still make less than 1/2 of what I could be making doing something I'm not near as passionate about and something which necessarily would have taken me further from the things that truly make me happy. It allows me to have everything I need, most of what I want, pay cash for college tuition, and agressively save for retirement. I'm also really fortunate that FMC is exactly the same way when it comes to material items.
Quote from: Gaspar on December 27, 2010, 02:40:02 PM
The money is a tool, but it's acquisition requires you to make someone happy.
Certainly true with hookers and amusement parks, not so sure people are very happy when they leave money in casinos though.
Quote from: Hoss on December 27, 2010, 02:31:02 PM
And you're a registered Republican? Wow! You might get excommunicated from the party.
;)
They need a few of us tokens who aren't closet cases.
Quote from: Gaspar on December 27, 2010, 02:27:19 PM
Incorrect. You cite the means, but not the end. The barrel of oil becomes something of value to those who wish to produce gasoline, cosmetics, plastic toys, seat belts, and whoopee cushions, all of which have a "value" measured in happiness. The money exchanged for these items goes to the original purchase of your barrel of oil.
There's no happiness inherent in that barrel of oil, and there's no happiness inherent in the uses it's put to. I could as easily be using the gas produced to drive to my sweetheart's house or off a cliff. The cosmetics can be used to make my prom date feel more beautiful or to cover up the evidence of chronic domestic abuse. Take your pick. Not that I want to but I can think of as many possible UNhappinesses that every purchase, or resource path, or service rendered can cause as much as you can come up with their happinesses.
The value to money isn't as in "human moral values." It represents economic value.
Your philosophy is interesting and shares a lot with some of the original Marxists, in that money -- or economic value -- is not only part of all human interactions, it is the entirety of human interaction. Our relationships are all transactional, and can be reduced down to dollar terms in every instance.
Quote from: we vs us on December 27, 2010, 03:12:42 PM
The value to money isn't as in "human moral values." It represents economic value.
I think you actually understand, but the argument from your angle is hard to make.
You are trying to establish that happiness = money. That's not the argument.
Economic value is quantified with money.
Money can be exchanged by people. The motive behind the exchange is based on the pursuit of happiness.
Again, in your example above:
QuoteI could as easily be using the gas produced to drive to my sweetheart's house or off a cliff. The cosmetics can be used to make my prom date feel more beautiful or to cover up the evidence of chronic domestic abuse
Your first example, your
desire is to drive your sweetheart's house off a cliff. To fulfill your
desire you exchange money for gas. You have made an exchange of money because the act is directly related to your desire (happiness).
Your second example you cite the purchase of cosmetics because your prom date
desires to cover up evidence of chronic domestic abuse. Hiding the evidence of your violence would make her happier than showing up with a black eye. She has exchanged money because she
desires to look pretty (so you won't hit her again?).
In both examples you have proven that exchanging money requires the generation of happiness. You have also proven that I do not want to be your sweetheart.
Happiness is a warm gun.
Quote from: dbacks fan on December 27, 2010, 05:11:34 PM
Happiness is a warm gun.
And a barrel full of Monkeys.. not oil
Quote from: Ed W on December 27, 2010, 02:33:51 PM
I was thinking along similar lines. While money may be symbol for happiness, it doesn't bring happiness as a direct result of having possession of it. And I was trying to think of an example showing happiness in the absence of any type of monetary exchange. Money is a tool and happiness results from what we can accomplish with that tool.
Here's another way to look at it. Are you happier with a five dollar bill or a ten dollar bill? My view is that what you can do with the bill makes you happy, not the bill itself. And there's a point where the number of bills you have is irrelevant to finding happiness.
In my opinion, having money increases freedom and opportunity--and happiness. If I want to help a family member having a hard time, or help those really in need, I can without giving it a second thought. And believe me, nothing made me more happy than seeing first hand my charitable dollars at work in the heart of Jamaica.
Oh, and not having to worry about losing a job or working for some d!ck is a bonus.
Money may not buy happiness, but it can buy you lots of things that can make you feel pretty gitty inside.
I understand that living your live souly through material things is not a path to true happiness. On the other end of that though is when you struggle to have even the simplist of material things, it makes it pretty hard to be happy. Having money doesn't mean that your going to be happy or unhappy, it just means you have a more options at your disposal.