I hope that we can have a rational discussion about image, perception and relationships in religion and not about the actual beliefs or even the personalities of religious leaders. I really hope we can.
Have Christians hurt their image among non-Christians? Has the discussion about the words "Christmas" versus "Holiday" on a parade permit application caused a rift in relationships among families, friends or co-workers?
I don't mean this as a judgement. If anything, I have a lot of experience of environmentalists being so bat-s@#t crazy that non-environmentalists can't stand them and conspicuously annoy them. If Major League Baseball strikes this next spring, non-baseball fans will clearly feel strongly enough to dislike it less.
Maybe it is just some of the people I have been around the last week. If the name of the parade came up in any conversation, some people would instantly tell me their side with passion. It made me feel uncomfortable. I tried to make up lots of jokes about it on my facebook profile, but that is usually my way of dealing with uncomfortable issues anyway.
What do you guys think?
We sell cards at our store. We were visited by a couple of notorious people a few weeks ago around Thanksgiving. One a local publisher, one a local state representative. I recognized them both and watched as they looked through all of our stock. They didn't want any help from anyone. Knowing these two, I suspected a setup and looked for a news crew in the parking lot. As they checked out, separately, they griped to the cashier about our lack of Christmas cards. After all they argued, this is Christmas and they objected to the removal of the word Christ from our cards. Problem was, we are mindful of all of our customers so we DID have Christmas cards, Seasons Greetings, Holiday Wishes, Happy Hanukkah, Joyeaux Noel etc. Just about everything was covered. After all we're a retailer to folks whose business is business, not religion.
They were looking for a fight but didn't find one.. They didn't have the guts to approach the manager, whose father was Jewish, whose mother was Christian and who graduated from Bishop Kelley. How do you think that 20 year old cashier responded to me about these "Christians"? She said they were nuts. That's the impression these zealot Christians are making.
What was the Christians' "image" to non-Christians before this parade renaming mess?
Waterboy, that's a funny story about the cards. For as long as I can recall, there's been "Happy Holiday" and Hannukah cards, it's hardly anything new. I do think some people are looking for trouble because they simply like to grumble.
I can see this from both sides of the issue. One one hand, I grew up with this time of year being "Christmas Time". To me it still is. In my family and my personal space, we/I celebrate Christmas. However, when it comes to sending greetings or cards over email to customers or people I don't know overly well, I'm cautious to say "Happy Holidays" unless I know that person is a Christian.
I think people as old as myself and older and probably ten years younger than myself might see their tradition being trampled on because public events and displays have taken Christmas out of the name. I think it's a smaller percentage of Christians who are truly outraged about the Tulsa Christmas parade issue. Most I believe take a more moderate and understanding approach to it or will quietly igore the parade as a quiet protest.
Quote from: guido911 on December 08, 2010, 06:44:52 PM
What was the Christians' "image" to non-Christians before this parade renaming mess?
The parade buisness hasn't changed the perception, just highlighted the image. Personally I can almost see Inhofs position on it, though in this case it seems more grandstanding. It doesn't make how he went about it the right thing to do, but people have to stand for what they believe in. But over all the image gets pushed more in more in the direction of Christians being intolerant to those with views other than their own.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 08, 2010, 06:53:41 PM
Waterboy, that's a funny story about the cards. For as long as I can recall, there's been "Happy Holiday" and Hannukah cards, it's hardly anything new. I do think some people are looking for trouble because they simply like to grumble.
I can see this from both sides of the issue. One one hand, I grew up with this time of year being "Christmas Time". To me it still is. In my family and my personal space, we/I celebrate Christmas. However, when it comes to sending greetings or cards over email to customers or people I don't know overly well, I'm cautious to say "Happy Holidays" unless I know that person is a Christian.
I think people as old as myself and older and probably ten years younger than myself might see their tradition being trampled on because public events and displays have taken Christmas out of the name. I think it's a smaller percentage of Christians who are truly outraged about the Tulsa Christmas parade issue. Most I believe take a more moderate and understanding approach to it or will quietly igore the parade as a quiet protest.
Personally I stick with Merry Christmas regardless. Of course if I had a client base to worry about I might be a little more selective. Now the good part of it is that I'm not a Christian. December 25 is Christmas, and I celebrate it as a holiday of giving. Kinda like Easter is celebrated by Christians, and call it Easter, though the name itself has no Christian basis. The time of year I do call the hollidays.
Quote from: guido911 on December 08, 2010, 06:44:52 PM
What was the Christians' "image" to non-Christians before this parade renaming mess?
I am not trying to put words in anybody's mouth. I am asking questions here. If you are a Christian (or not), tell us what you think the image is and has it changed locally because of local events?
I still consider it Christmas and have no problem sending Christmas cards, and truly enjoying the holiday as a Christian. If I know a friend is Jewish I send a different card for sure. However, like you Conan, I also see it as a season. One that many faiths and crazies can enjoy as they see fit. I also made a personal decision as to whether I would attend the parade this year based on whether the permit was allowed and a certain Senator was going to be in attendance ;) and kept it to myself. The name was the least of my concern as a Christian. Go that route and pretty soon every branch of Christianity wants its own parade. Now if they had refused to allow Christian floats? Different story.
Why is it so important to so many people that everyone see the world exactly as they do? Are they fearful that their own beliefs cannot withstand comparison with others? Is it a competitive thing? The proselytizing for faith, for education and for politics seems like its growing way to fast.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 08, 2010, 07:08:44 PM
I am not trying to put words in anybody's mouth. I am asking questions here. If you are a Christian (or not), tell us what you think the image is and has it changed locally because of local events?
I know your not and my question was serious. The premise of this thread, as I understand it, is that Christians might have an image problem after some voiced opposition to the name change.
My thought on the subject is that at least some Christians believe there is hostility towards their religion by the PC crowd or the elites. When they vocalize their outrage to this hostility, though, it's the Christians' image that is of concern? In my experience, Christians are generally not selfish but rather very giving and charitable. I also believe they can be defensive. If their image has been hurt over this relatively small issue, then chances are their image was not very good to non-Christians to begin with.
Quote from: guido911 on December 08, 2010, 07:35:00 PM
I know your not and my question was serious. The premise of this thread, as I understand it, is that Christians might have an image problem after some voiced opposition to the name change.
My thought on the subject is that at least some Christians believe there is hostility towards their religion by the PC crowd or the elites. When they vocalize their outrage to this hostility, though, it's the Christians' image that is of concern? In my experience, Christians are generally not selfish but rather very giving and charitable. I also believe they can be defensive. If their image has been hurt over this relatively small issue, then chances are their image was not very good to non-Christians to begin with.
Well put. I'm not sure either side got new recruits out of this dust up.
Quote from: guido911 on December 08, 2010, 07:35:00 PM
My thought on the subject is that at least some Christians believe there is hostility towards their religion by the PC crowd or the elites.
I forget where I came across this, but in the last couple of days, someone pointed out that Christianity survived the Roman Empire, so the whole 'Happy Holidays' dust up is relatively tame.
Religious convictions are highly personal. They arouse intense emotions, no less so than when they're challenged. So when someone approaches us to proselytize, we're naturally defensive. Likewise, that intense emotional involvement makes it easy to mistake criticism or even factual reportage as attacks or hatred.
I read a piece years ago that said there are three broad areas of human thought: religion, science, and art. While we use a common language to describe all three, the thought processes that lie behind them are essentially beyond translation. That's a huge divide. But I'm thinking that the divide between religious beliefs is not any less. So while a Christian may think the Iroquois giant turtle creation myth is so ludicrous as to be comical, the Iroquois may think the same about the Christian belief that God created the Earth in under a week.
Quote from: Ed W on December 08, 2010, 08:32:24 PM
I forget where I came across this, but in the last couple of days, someone pointed out that Christianity survived the Roman Empire, so the whole 'Happy Holidays' dust up is relatively tame.
Religious convictions are highly personal. They arouse intense emotions, no less so than when they're challenged. So when someone approaches us to proselytize, we're naturally defensive. Likewise, that intense emotional involvement makes it easy to mistake criticism or even factual reportage as attacks or hatred.
I read a piece years ago that said there are three broad areas of human thought: religion, science, and art. While we use a common language to describe all three, the thought processes that lie behind them are essentially beyond translation. That's a huge divide. But I'm thinking that the divide between religious beliefs is not any less. So while a Christian may think the Iroquois giant turtle creation myth is so ludicrous as to be comical, the Iroquois may think the same about the Christian belief that God created the Earth in under a week.
Can't argue with any of that. +1
Don't think this one thing really has much effect. I will still go watch the parade if at all possible. Have watched it intermittently since 1955 and just doesn't matter if they call it Christmas parade or not. The name is irrelevant to my beliefs and won't hurt my observance of this holiday at all. (Bonus that Inhofe will not be there!!)
The big thing that I see changing perception-wise is that there appears to be more open participation by non-Christians in holiday activities and a de-emphasis of government bias toward Christmas/Christians (except where it is strongly preserved in Union and Jenks school districts - see the football games?).
This seems to be seen as threatening.
There is plenty of room in this country for a wide variety of religions. Just because someone is not Christian, doesn't mean they are trying to take your beliefs away from you! That fear is becoming a large part of the perception of Christians, which is sad.
I think this was just event number 272,364 where a group over-reacted to defend their values and hurt their image.
I'm a Christian and I would prefer the parade be called "Christmas." Unlike apparently 99% of the city, I noticed the name change in 2009.. when it happened. At the same time, it's not my parade or my City's parade. It is a parade put on by a group of volunteers who are working their butts off to try and put on the best parade they can. They have their decision making process and at no point does it, or should it say, "check with Grizzle." I am not going to beat my chest and demand every parade and festival operate they way I think it should. If public opinion ruled every event, then Mayfest would be in June and DFest would be a weekend of Top 40 artists no-one ever heard of before this year.
I don't know about others, but I think part of what my problem with christianity is that I've lived my entire life having the religion pushed onto me and always in my face. Might explain some of my animosity towards the religion as a whole. But I do try to give things a fair shake despite this.
With Christians as with everything else, one size doesn't fit all. Some Christians are quite secure in their faith and do not need the sanction of government. They aren't offended to find that not everyone is just the same as they are and a respectful of other beliefs even when they disagree with them.
Others, but very few I have personally met, have a serious belief that their particular version of Christianity is the One True Faith, that all others are infidels and should be suppressed.
And there are some such as our senior senator who simply use the symbols of Christianity, not its core doctrines, to create wedge issues and to grandstand. They prefer to use the holiday season to drive communities apart. Is that hurting Christianity's image among non-Christians? It depends on who attracts attention. Unfortunately, the political grandstanders like Senator Inhofe and Councilor Westbrook have better access to the media with its 24-hour news cycle than those I consider true Christians. Did anyone appoint either of them to speak for Christianity? Last I heard they were both elected to secular office. But they grandstand, they are joined in their outrage by others, and observers are led to believe that they do speak for Christians. The irony is that to survive constitutional scrutiny when pushed by government, those Christian symbols have to be judicially watered down to mere cultural and historical expressions. That is a disservice to Christianity, but it is self-inflicted.
Incidentally, the phrase "political correctness" has become a buzzword to mask bigotry. Why do people object to civility? IMHO it is not bigoted or politically incorrect to sincerely wish someone a Merry Christmas. It is bigoted to insist that someone else do so as a condition of putting on a community event. Labeling someone as "PC" for observing that distinction is a cheap cop-out.
Your point about people being secure enough in their faith they don't need government sanction is a good one to remember. I'm surprised at the level-headed approach everyone has taken and we've not attracted one single moonbat response.
Cynical, other than your position that PC masks bigotry, a very well-stated post. PC representing civility or being ridiculously apologetic is in the eye of the beholder.
I might ruin the no-moonbat record. Let's see.
I don't have a problem with the parade being called anything its organizers like. I don't even have a problem with Christians having a preference for it being called a "Christmas" parade. I guess what it is I find most annoying about the whole thing is how certain powerful people who are attempting to keep a lock on the evangelist vote have this (most likely completely manufactured) persecution complex.
Christians are not being persecuted in this country. That may be happening in other countries, but it's not happening here. The majority of Americans self-identify as Christian. When the government reduces or eliminates its historical favoritism toward one particular religion, that is not persecution. I guess when we've had many state and local governments in our part of the country promoting Christianity for the past century, it's pretty easy to feel slighted when people of other faiths (or no faith) ask for that promotion to end.
In short, I've got no problem with people of faith right up until they try to shove their faith in my face with color of law, like a certain city councilman stating he won't vote to approve the parade permit unless it's called a "Christmas" parade. Conversely, I actually enjoy having voluntary conversations with people of various faiths about that faith. I think it's interesting to see the perspective they're coming from.
Quote from: nathanm on December 09, 2010, 08:57:56 AM
I might ruin the no-moonbat record. Let's see.
I don't have a problem with the parade being called anything its organizers like. I don't even have a problem with Christians having a preference for it being called a "Christmas" parade. I guess what it is I find most annoying about the whole thing is how certain powerful people who are attempting to keep a lock on the evangelist vote have this (most likely completely manufactured) persecution complex.
Christians are not being persecuted in this country. That may be happening in other countries, but it's not happening here. The majority of Americans self-identify as Christian. When the government reduces or eliminates its historical favoritism toward one particular religion, that is not persecution. I guess when we've had many state and local governments in our part of the country promoting Christianity for the past century, it's pretty easy to feel slighted when people of other faiths (or no faith) ask for that promotion to end.
In short, I've got no problem with people of faith right up until they try to shove their faith in my face with color of law, like a certain city councilman stating he won't vote to approve the parade permit unless it's called a "Christmas" parade. Conversely, I actually enjoy having voluntary conversations with people of various faiths about that faith. I think it's interesting to see the perspective they're coming from.
+1
I appreciate the posts so far.
I started this thread after hearing some very mean-spirited comments by some non-Christian friends whom I thought were among the most tolerant people I know. It really caught me off-guard and quite frankly, scared me.
I love a good discussion and want people to express their thoughts and feelings and when possible back them up with facts, but these were not healthy discussions. These were very pissed-off people. I got wrapped up in it too. I muttered and sputtered about Christian intolerance and religious pandering. I got mad at friends who ranted against all displays or exclamations of faith. It truly disturbed me.
Councilor Rick Westcott was quoted in the paper saying that he was glad the parade caused this public discussion. I disagree. I am sad we had a fight about a name on a parade permit.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 09, 2010, 09:54:13 AM
I am sad we had a fight about a name on a parade permit.
And that really is the sum total of what happened.
As an individual, Jim Inhofe has a right to boycott a parade. I'm assuming the only reason it's been relevant for him to ride a horse in the parade is because he's a Senator.
Councilor Westcott and Senator Inhofe were elected to represent all their constituents, regardless of religious affiliation. I believe both reached into an area which goes beyond their job description. If neither were in public office no one would have cared what they thought about the issue, correct?
As a Christian, I've personally heard and seen a lot more open cynicism and criticism in the last 20 years or so and it seems to ratchet up a notch every year. I don't push my spiritual views on anyone and I really don't see how pushing an anti-Christian rhetoric is any different than someone pushing the Gospel on everyone else. I say it half-joking, but there's a certain level of seriousness in it when I talk about people trying to convince others Christianity is an out-moded religion.
Cynical said:
Quote from: cynical on December 08, 2010, 09:48:04 PM
And there are some such as our senior senator who simply use the symbols of Christianity, not its core doctrines, to create wedge issues and to grandstand. They prefer to use the holiday season to drive communities apart. Is that hurting Christianity's image among non-Christians? It depends on who attracts attention. Unfortunately, the political grandstanders like Senator Inhofe and Councilor Westbrook have better access to the media with its 24-hour news cycle than those I consider true Christians. Did anyone appoint either of them to speak for Christianity? Last I heard they were both elected to secular office. But they grandstand, they are joined in their outrage by others, and observers are led to believe that they do speak for Christians. The irony is that to survive constitutional scrutiny when pushed by government, those Christian symbols have to be judicially watered down to mere cultural and historical expressions. That is a disservice to Christianity, but it is self-inflicted.
Outstanding observation. I would like to add that througout history a rise in religion has been accompanied by a decline in education and science.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 08, 2010, 07:08:44 PM
I am not trying to put words in anybody's mouth. I am asking questions here. If you are a Christian (or not), tell us what you think the image is and has it changed locally because of local events?
The image of Christians in the world really has taken a beating IMO. With all people / groups that decide to stand up for themselves when they feel they are threatened they tend to get a bad rap. Doesn't matter if its a gay movement, race movement or religion of any sort, when they start to voice opinions they get blasted by another group, the media or even the government.
I am a Christian and I hold my faith dear to me, but to me alone. My relationship with my believed creator is between me and Him. Christians do have an image issue, but no more than Muslims or any other faith really, each will always have image issues.
Quote from: TulsaMoon on December 09, 2010, 03:52:34 PM
I am a Christian and I hold my faith dear to me, but to me alone. My relationship with my believed creator is between me and Him. Christians do have an image issue, but no more than Muslims or any other faith really, each will always have image issues.
Apparently some Muslims have an image problem at this place.
http://www.thehopeforamerica.com/play.php?id=6263
Quote from: Hometown on December 09, 2010, 10:20:15 AM
Cynical said:
Outstanding observation. I would like to add that througout history a rise in religion has been accompanied by a decline in education and science.
And that would explain the intellect level of people who embrace liberalism as their personal religion. ;D
Well, that lasted two full pages. As if the people who disagree with the RWRE are somehow not "Christian" enough, huh, Conan?
I have acquaintances who were taught growing up that Catholics are 'Communists'. Literally. I don't believe it, from personal experience of all the Catholic friends and family I have. Nor do I believe Baptists have all been co-opted by the "Christian Coalition", by way of exact same basis, all the friends and even more family who are Baptist. Leaving just poor little ol' me here in the middle with the Methodists!
Speaking of the "Dark Ages."
The Dark Ages – Faith vs. Enlightenment
The Dark Ages were a tumultuous time. Roving horse-bound invaders charged the country sides. Religious conflicts arose; Muslims conquered lands. Scarcity of sound literature and cultural achievements marked these years; barbarous practices prevailed.
Despite the religious conflicts, the period of the Dark Ages was seen as an age of faith. Men and women sought after God; some through the staid rituals of the Catholic Church, others in Protestant forms of worship. Intellectuals view religion in any form as, itself, a type of "darkness." These thinkers assert that those who followed religious beliefs lied to themselves, creating a false reality. They were dominated by emotions, not fact. Religion was seen as contrary to rationality and reason, thus the move towards enlightenment -- a move away from "darkness." Science and reason gained ascendancy, progressing steadily during and after the Reformation and Age of Enlightenment.
http://www.allabouthistory.org/the-dark-ages.htm
I don't know about you folks but I never expected to see the world drift into a "New Dark Ages." I grew up in Tulsa Schools during the ascendancy of humanism when our schools were famous for quality of education and I was thoroughly instructed in civics and I never expected that late in my life I would see Oklahoma Public Schools offering Bible Study as part of their curriculum.
One size does not fit all, but the general perception annd image of Christians has become one of:
You are either with us, or against us.
If you are not in line with what they want, its open season. Negotiation and compromise is weakness. Their beliefs should translate to law. All other beliefs are inferior. And the more fundamentalist, the more "christian" they are, the more it applies.
I used to be very religious. I met my wife at a church function. I was elected to church council a couple times for a large parrish. I still regularily communicate with clergy and pastors of several faiths . And I saw and fought this attitude back then. It is far worse here and now.
The "holiday" fight is just an extension of this. If you won't call it what I want it called, government shouldn't allow it. If another religion wants to build where I don't want them to, we must stop them. If my religious teachings do not conform with our laws, the laws should be changed. My religious beliefs > your religious beliefs and our secular laws.
Most non christians feel many, probably a majority of christians in oklahoma anyway, would be perfectly happy in a theocracy. So long as they controlled it.
Imposing your will and excluding others, just like jesus taught...
Quote from: cannon_fodder on December 10, 2010, 04:15:18 PM
One size does not fit all, but the general perception annd image of Christians has become one of:
You are either with us, or against us.
If you are not in line with what they want, its open season. Negotiation and compromise is weakness. Their beliefs should translate to law. All other beliefs are inferior. And the more fundamentalist, the more "christian" they are, the more it applies.
I used to be very religious. I met my wife at a church function. I was elected to church council a couple times for a large parrish. I still regularily communicate with clergy and pastors of several faiths . And I saw and fought this attitude back then. It is far worse here and now.
The "holiday" fight is just an extension of this. If you won't call it what I want it called, government shouldn't allow it. If another religion wants to build where I don't want them to, we must stop them. If my religious teachings do not conform with our laws, the laws should be changed. My religious beliefs > your religious beliefs and our secular laws.
Most non christians feel many, probably a majority of christians in oklahoma anyway, would be perfectly happy in a theocracy. So long as they controlled it.
Imposing your will and excluding others, just like jesus taught...
Yep. Those mean ol' Christians out there just making life miserable for everyone.
Quote from: guido911 on December 10, 2010, 04:34:34 PM
Yep. Those mean ol' Christians out there just making life miserable for everyone.
You got it right there. The mean ones do make it miserable.
By all means, have a faith. Keep it to yourself.
If you have to push it out there, do good things with it. Don't send threats to a guy backing a parade to bring people closer to his business.
Jackasses.
Quote from: Townsend on December 10, 2010, 04:39:02 PM
You got it right there. The mean ones do make it miserable.
List the "mean ones" for us so I know who to avoid:
Lemme start for ya..
1. The Pope
2.
3.
4.
5.
Quote from: guido911 on December 10, 2010, 04:44:37 PM
List the "mean ones" for us so I know who to avoid:
Lemme start for ya..
1. The Pope
2.
3.
4.
5.
What the Hell are you talking about? You know the pope?
Quote from: Townsend on December 10, 2010, 04:46:42 PM
What the Hell are you talking about? You know the pope?
No. But if he's mean I'll forgo any plans to visit the Vatican. I am dying to know who the mean Christians are in your opinion.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 08, 2010, 06:02:31 PM
I hope that we can have a rational discussion about image, perception and relationships in religion and not about the actual beliefs or even the personalities of religious leaders. I really hope we can.
I would like to keep the Pope out of this. We were doing so well...
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 10, 2010, 04:51:17 PM
I would like to keep the Pope out of this. We were doing so well...
My apologies. You are correct.
With Guido name dropping like a lunatic I think I'll take the time to tell a little story.
When I moved here in '85 I'd never been exposed to the fundamentalist issues we deal with here in OK.
When I had my first discussion with a "hard core" I asked if he was joking because he'd seemed so much like anyone else I'd known. That was when the dark clouds formed. Suddenly I was going to "burn for all eternity" and I needed to "bring Jesus into my life".
That happened more times than it should've in my first year.
Another big one. I was 16 and made friends with a very pretty, nice red head. I asked her out and went over to meet her parents. We went out and had a nice time. The next day, she'd have nothing to do with me. Her mother wouldn't let her date someone who didn't go to a Christian church.
I had no idea people still thought this way.
I'd been raised with a very open upbringing and was blown away by the closed mindedness I was running into here.
Fast forward 25 years and you'd see my experience with 25 years of the same crap. Anger due to religion.
Pass.
Quote from: Townsend on December 10, 2010, 04:55:20 PM
Another big one. I was 16 and made friends with a very pretty, nice red head. I asked her out and went over to meet her parents. We went out and had a nice time. The next day, she'd have nothing to do with me. Her mother wouldn't let her date someone who didn't go to a Christian church.
In the long run you may have been lucky it ended quickly. Tough at the time of course.
Quote from: Townsend on December 10, 2010, 04:55:20 PM
With Guido name dropping like a lunatic I think I'll take the time to tell a little story.
When I moved here in '85 I'd never been exposed to the fundamentalist issues we deal with here in OK.
When I had my first discussion with a "hard core" I asked if he was joking because he'd seemed so much like anyone else I'd known. That was when the dark clouds formed. Suddenly I was going to "burn for all eternity" and I needed to "bring Jesus into my life".
That happened more times than it should've in my first year.
Another big one. I was 16 and made friends with a very pretty, nice red head. I asked her out and went over to meet her parents. We went out and had a nice time. The next day, she'd have nothing to do with me. Her mother wouldn't let her date someone who didn't go to a Christian church.
I had no idea people still thought this way.
I'd been raised with a very open upbringing and was blown away by the closed mindedness I was running into here.
Fast forward 25 years and you'd see my experience with 25 years of the same crap. Anger due to religion.
Pass.
Have a sister and a brother-in-law essentially the same. Especially the brother in law. Right after they got married, he started talking to me about 'bringing Jesus into my life'. I told him to get stuffed, essentially. He wants to go to school to become a pastor. I told him good luck as I would anyone who would be studying to better themselves. My brother told him the same. I told him if I was going to do that, it would be on MY terms, and not anyone ministering to me. Best way to get a door slammed in your face at my house? Be a Jehovah's Witness or try and minister your faith to me. I don't go out and do the same to you.
2. Reverend (I use that term loosely) Phelps.
One problem relates to the semantics of the situation. Many who call themselves Christian just really haven't quite embraced the true idea that Jesus was trying to get across. (I can just imagine Him at the time rolling his eyes and saying, "Geezzzzz...won't they ever get it? Probably STILL saying it!!)
List??
Jerry Falwell
Pat Robertson
Oral Roberts (and Richard)
Jim Baker
Jim Jones (Guyana Jim, not ex-representative Jim)
Tammy Fay
TBN
Paul and Jan
There are many more. In general, anyone who thinks this country should be a theocracy has forgotten what Jesus said about rendering unto Caesar and rendering unto God. Very specific that there is no such thing as a "Christian" nation - Jesus is the one who said so. Something about how His kingdom is of Heaven, not earth.
And darn, it. I missed the holiday parade. Oh, well, maybe next year if the private, non-governmental, non-church sponsored parties involved will do it again.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on December 12, 2010, 08:49:49 PM
There are many more. In general, anyone who thinks this country should be a theocracy has forgotten what Jesus said about rendering unto Caesar and rendering unto God. Very specific that there is no such thing as a "Christian" nation - Jesus is the one who said so. Something about how His kingdom is of Heaven, not earth.
Jesus skillfully points out that the claims of God and Caesar are mutually exclusive. If one's faith is in God, then God is owed everything; Caesar's claims are necessarily illegitimate, and he is therefore owed nothing. If, on the other hand, one's faith is in Caesar, God's claims are illegitimate, and Caesar is owed, at the very least, the coin which bears his image.
The verse you have quoted speaks nothing of a Christain nation.
Quote from: TulsaMoon on December 12, 2010, 11:38:26 PM
Jesus skillfully points out that the claims of God and Caesar are mutually exclusive. If one's faith is in God, then God is owed everything; Caesar's claims are necessarily illegitimate, and he is therefore owed nothing. If, on the other hand, one's faith is in Caesar, God's claims are illegitimate, and Caesar is owed, at the very least, the coin which bears his image.
The verse you have quoted speaks nothing of a Christain nation.
More disagreement on bible interpretations? One of the reasons I scratch my head when people push their religion. Everyone's Jesus is different.
I won't argue that point - it is a matter of interpretation. I just happen to interpret it to mean there is no such thing as a Christian nation on earth. I feel it is/will be in Heaven if there is a "nation". Actually, I guess I don't really think there is or will be a nation as we think of them.
And if someone could lay claim to be a "Christian nation" I'm thinking Italy might be up there on the list, but it don't look like they are getting the kind of 'blessings' lately that one might suppose would accrue to such a place.
Quote from: Townsend on December 13, 2010, 10:37:05 AM
More disagreement on bible interpretations? One of the reasons I scratch my head when people push their religion. Everyone's Jesus is different.
That was not a push for religion in any fashion, it was a simple observation. Where was the Christian nation mentioned? If the interpretations of this verse can be viewed as such I wanted explination. Asking someone to backup a statement should never be a reason for you to "scratch your head".
If I said " Jesus wept " ( John 11:35 ) because I did not get that new car I prayed for, would that be a correct interpretation of that verse? Or would it be ok if someone asked me to explain my train of thought?
The verse quoted concerned a trap that Jesus was placed into about paying taxes. I am not ( repeat ) not, pushing religion in any fashion. I am asking for how this is brought around to a Christian nation.
Quote from: TulsaMoon on December 13, 2010, 11:22:33 AM
I am not ( repeat ) not, pushing religion in any fashion.
My observation was not meant to point to you personally. I was pointing out that it's different for everyone.
I didn't feel you were pushing religion. It was a big net I throw because I look at all organized religions with a cocked brow.
TulsaMoon,
I think we are saying similar things from different ends. Too many people in this country claim this is a "Christian nation", while, as you stated, there is no mention of a Christian nation anywhere in the Bible. So, in my interpretation, a Christian nation does not exist on earth. Anywhere.
A lot of nations have Christians, but I don't think there are any Christian theocracies - or maybe my memory has holes in it. A Christian Theocracy would seem to me to be a contradiction (if not an outright abomination or blasphemy - my opinion.)
My Jesus is better than your Jesus. Nyah, nyah, nyah!
Be nice, Conan!
I kinda think it's the same message regardless of how people interpret it.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/16/california.transgender.dmv/index.html?iref=NS1 (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/16/california.transgender.dmv/index.html?iref=NS1)
Another mean one that should've kept his letter writing to the 700 club.
QuoteDMV employee resigns over letter condemning customer to hell
Quote from: Townsend on December 17, 2010, 12:03:57 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/16/california.transgender.dmv/index.html?iref=NS1 (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/16/california.transgender.dmv/index.html?iref=NS1)
Another mean one that should've kept his letter writing to the 700 club.
Condemning to hell? Do you mean it said "please have a seat."
Quote from: Gaspar on December 17, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
Condemning to hell? Do you mean it said "please have a seat."
If he'd been smarter, maybe he could've used that in his defense.
The church flyers probably burned his opportunity for that though.
From early childhood I was taught by church members that someday we would all have to take the mark of the beast and Christians would be hunted down and executed during the tribulation period.
So fearful was I of this, that I never forgot it.
And now, I see with a clear, adult mind, that if anyone is trying their best to advance this dire future prediction toward reality, it is Christians themselves. They are so annoying they make people hate them.
Worship how you please, buy whatever Christmas cards you want, and hold any parades you like, just **** and let me do the same.
The recent spat with the city council over the parade was sickening. To take a family parade and use it for political gain made my stomach churn.
Happy Yule-tide, folks!!
QuoteVatican Told Irish Bishops Not to Report Abuse
"Mandatory" Reporting of Child Sex Abuse Claims Conflicted with Canon Law, Archbishop Said
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/18/world/main7257626.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/18/world/main7257626.shtml)
That pretty much hurts their image among everyone.
And his pope is up for saint hood.
New Ala. gov: Just Christians are his family
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_alabama_governor_christians (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_alabama_governor_christians)
QuoteBIRMINGHAM, Ala. – Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley told a church crowd just moments into his new administration that those who have not accepted Jesus as their savior are not his brothers and sisters, shocking some critics who questioned Tuesday whether he can be fair to non-Christians.
Kissing church-donkey or full on looney?
Now, the Governor did say that he would Govern all people, Christians and the less thans.
Quote from: Trogdor on January 19, 2011, 11:16:01 AM
Now, the Governor did say that he would Govern all people, Christians and the less thans.
How very 700 Club of him.
I wonder if the new Alabama governor will continue to illegally raid bingo halls which are operating within Alabama law..
It might not just make you mean or self important to the point of turning off anyone else around you. It could make you big.
QuoteObesity battle: Does God make you fat?
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20046756-10391704.html (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20046756-10391704.html)
Good news is you'd be less likely to smoke.