Ok, so for this thread I have to quote tweets from Robert Reich. (http://robertreich.org/) Yeah, the liberal lion Robert Reich, and yeah, tweets (http://twitter.com/rbreich), all from about 2 hours ago:
Quote"Another White House cave-in. How many more cave-ins before nothing's left to cave in on? A president who looks weak IS weak.
Concentration of income and wealth at the top is the single biggest economic reality of our era, yet O allows them a tax cut w/o a fight.
Unless you stand up to bullies they will be encouraged by your unwillingness to fight. Yet O refuses to fight on matters of core principle.
Bush's 2003 tax cut gave those with incomes over $1 m and average tax cut of $90K per year. And O & Dems extend it without a fight?
This isn't just a matter of "liberal" indignation. All Americans should be appalled that politicians are so clearly controlled by the rich.
Is it time to begin a third party -- a Peoples' Party -- to get Americans back to work & break the lock of Big Money on politics?"
So Reich is no communist but definitely a liberal economist, and one of the more outspoken members of the Clinton era. He holds a position slightly below Krugman as far as influence amongst the liberal smarties out there in the blogosphere. So for him to go off on this rant is big news. Krugman himself has also wandered into Obama-questioning territory with all of this tax cut maneuvering, deal-making, and the perception that Obama has given away the farm for nothing.
If Obama has lost or is in danger of losing the left-leaning economists then he's in real danger of losing the liberal base. Since the Recession has turned into the nation's primary problem, those two (+ Joseph Stiglitz) have gained a lot of prominence in the left's political thinking.
If things are like this two years out from 2012 -- and they get worse -- I might very well have to revise my prediction that Obama doesn't get primaried. Or that D's split altogether and have their own version of the Tea Party, but based on economic justice issues rather than the Tea Party's protectionism
If Obama doesn't grow some cajones pretty quick, I may be on board with Reich. I think Obama has gotten a lot done, but he's compromised on principles a lot along the way. I guess his idea of centrist and my idea of centrist are two different things. I assumed he meant in the middle, you know, the median, and not center-right.
The constant cries of socialism are all the more annoying given his being about as far from socialist as one can get and still be able to see the stadium.
I remember the same moans from the left when Clinton took power and "turned" on his base. Yet the country prospered under his compromising leadership. There are some realities of politics in America that just can't be ignored. One is that the right wing is a lot more adept at achieving their goals at all costs than the left. Truth and conscience be damned they will sell granny out for the right price.
I revere Reich. He was my favorite member of Clinton's cabinet. If he is unhappy, it carries a lot of weight with the moderate left. But just how much stroke does a president have when the sins of the fathers has visited his country? The view from the presidential perch is different than from the base.
Quote from: waterboy on December 06, 2010, 05:40:54 PM
One is that the right LEFT wing is a lot more adept at achieving their goals at all costs than the left. Truth and conscience be damned they will sell granny out for the right price.
You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine.
We'll have to pass it to find out what's in it. (No quotes since I don't remember if those were NP's
exact words.
I vote with doing away with the parties all together. Go back to how the founding fathers had intended it to be.
"economic justice issues"?
I just threw up in my mouth a little.
Sooooo, you think those of us on the left whose beliefs are anathema to the religious right and the tea baggers could find common cause with them? I'd find it very hard to believe that the right wing culture warriors could set aside their insistence that those of us on the left are somehow drunken, unabashed sinners hell bent on...well...hell. Talk about an uneasy coalition!
Quote from: Ed W on December 06, 2010, 09:49:59 PM
I'd find it very hard to believe that the right wing culture warriors could set aside their insistence that those of us on the left are somehow drunken, pot smoking, unabashed sinners hell bent on...well...hell.
You forgot pot smoking. Get the stereotype right. :D
I'd find it very difficult to believe that the left wing could set aside their insistence that everyone right of somewhere slightly left of center is a religious tea partying right wing culture warrior crackpot.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 06, 2010, 10:10:35 PM
You forgot pot smoking. Get the stereotype right. :D
I'd find it very difficult to believe that the left wing could set aside their insistence that everyone right of somewhere slightly left of center is a religious tea partying right wing culture warrior crackpot.
I think most of us don't have the inclination to think that, even though you think I might.
The way I see it is that the TP has fractured the 'real' Republican party in such a way that those people that, as you put it, are 'right of somewhere slightly left of center' had to coddle to those far right extremists during election season, so as not to piss off that ever-growing TP population.
With Mama Grizzly at the helm, I wonder how long it will be before you have base Republicans and TP Republicans literally fighting it out over ideology. Oh, wait...isn't that already happening?
Believe it or not, as I've stated before, I'm actually more of a fiscal conservative, but a social liberal. I don't understand why old school Republicans think you couldn't be that (fiscally conservative) AND be for things like healthcare for all (within reasonable spending limits) and programs like SS and public schools without being a heathen. I guess Reagan really made a mess of things when he brought the Evangelicals on board to win him his first Presidential election. I think that's where all this crazy right-wing ideology got it's inception.
Before you (R)s go screaming, I don't think all right wingers are all like that. I happen to like people like Colin Powell (yes, I wanted him to run in 2000), although most here will consider him a RINO, much as Governor Schwarzenegger is considered one. There are others, but the problem is that the current movement has scared the bejeezus out of the mainstream Republicans enough for them to start parroting the TPs talking points to appease, as I said before, that growing contingent.
We have an interesting AND challenging 23 months ahead of us, that's one thing I'm sure we can all agree on
Quote from: Conan71 on December 06, 2010, 09:40:06 PM
"economic justice issues"?
I just threw up in my mouth a little.
You know . . . all that income inequality goobledygook. Economic justice, Brother Conan!
And Red Arrow, if the American Left had any ability to get things done at all you'd have a single payer healthcare option, billions more in stimulus for infrastructure investment rather than tax cuts, and a higher tolerance for flexible tax policy. The fact that these things are all not only NOT in current legislation after the Ds controlled Congress and the White House, but are actually things we can't really talk about as future policy says all it needs to about the ability of the left to get things done.
Quote from: we vs us on December 07, 2010, 06:34:01 AM
You know . . . all that income inequality goobledygook. Economic justice, Brother Conan!
And Red Arrow, if the American Left had any ability to get things done at all you'd have a single payer healthcare option, billions more in stimulus for infrastructure investment rather than tax cuts, and a higher tolerance for flexible tax policy. The fact that these things are all not only NOT in current legislation after the Ds controlled Congress and the White House, but are actually things we can't really talk about as future policy says all it needs to about the ability of the left to get things done.
Excuse me. I keep forgetting that people I consider to be slightly left of center, you consider to be right wing extremists.
The legacy of Democrats and Republicans approaches: Libertarianism by bankruptcy. – Nick Nuessle, 1992
The 2 party system is horrible. It is binary, self serving, revolving, and largely static. Swing one way, then the other. No point finding the middle or caring what will actually work, you have to hold the party line to distinguish your party from the other.
Political parties themselves are harmful in a republic, but enevitable. The way to reduce their power is to increase their number and disparity. A 5, 6 or 20 party system would be much better.
Why does the government treat 2 special parties different anyway? Special ballot access rules. Special governmental funding. Why?
The founders were concerned political parties would turn the government into a noneffect self feeding machine. And they were spot on.
Bring on the greens, the libertarians, the rinos (canadian style), the tea party, the holy rollers, the pot party, even the socialist... the 2 party system sucks.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on December 07, 2010, 09:25:57 AM
The 2 party system is horrible. It is binary, self serving, revolving, and largely static. Swing one way, then the other. No point finding the middle or caring what will actually work, you have to hold the party line to distinguish your party from the other.
Political parties themselves are harmful in a republic, but enevitable. The way to reduce their power is to increase their number and disparity. A 5, 6 or 20 party system would be much better.
Why does the government treat 2 special parties different anyway? Special ballot access rules. Special governmental funding. Why?
The founders were concerned political parties would turn the government into a noneffect self feeding machine. And they were spot on.
Bring on the greens, the libertarians, the rinos (canadian style), the tea party, the holy rollers, the pot party, even the socialist... the 2 party system sucks.
+1
We need instant runoff voting or something similar. First past the post will always tend towards two and only two major parties.
It's bi-party and I will cry if I want to.
I fail to see how President Obama shafted the "working" man with this compromise. The real shaft to "working" people (whatever that class envy/warfare term is supposed to imply) ostensibly would have been to let their U/E benefits expire.
I do agree with Reich on one point he made, although I'm not so sure I trust he's not speaking of a "People's Republik". We do need to restore the power of government back to the people, that is essentially what the Tea Party has been about all along. Come up with a serious clamp-down on lobbyists, soft money vehicles, and change our pay-to-play system though I fear it may be far too late to make a serious change.
I find it interesting that Liberals have excoriated conservatives and have spent nearly two years poking fun at and trying to discredit the Tea Party as a bunch of disaffected right wingers. Now that they feel they aren't being heard a third party is suddenly an acceptible vehicle. How original. Libs need to realize that out of liberal/moderate/conservative they are basically 1/5 of the political scene. They need to accept that 80% of the rest of Americans don't ascribe to their world and political views hook, line, and sinker.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/2010-conservatives-outnumber-moderates-liberals.aspx
THere you go Red. Be consistent. Twist that one back on itself.
Quote from: waterboy on December 07, 2010, 11:01:23 AM
THere you go Red. Be consistent. Twist that one back on itself.
Which one?
The good news for the Republicans is that they got all of the Bush tax cuts extended...the bad news for the Republican's MAY be that they got the Bush tax cuts extended. Now all of the business owners and politicians that stated that a major headwind to more hiring was the uncertainty over tax policy now have certainty. It is put up or shut up time. We have unemployment at 9.8% (stated I know and the underemployment number is much higher). In 2 years if the rate is not much lower and the economy much better then the argument for lower taxes being the ultimate economic elixir will be moot.
Are the Democrats now in the position of hoping for failure on the part of the economy and country so they can make another run at their ideology?
Tit for tat, tax rates for unemployment benefits. Winner/losers...... politicos are whining or crowing about the shifting winds but we haven't even started on the really hard work...
Ok, now that the uncertainty is gone, who has hired someone today?? Your bluff HAS been called! Do something!
(We have been hiring about as fast as ever have.)
Good to know that the rich get a full 24 months of tax break extension! That makes it only slightly more difficult for them to complain about the extra 13 months of unemployment. That disparity is not quite 2 to 1, so I guess the poor get a break from the more normal 4 to 1 (and more) disparity in tax treatment. Wow! Merry Christmas!!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on December 07, 2010, 01:25:03 PM
Ok, now that the uncertainty is gone, who has hired someone today?? Your bluff HAS been called! Do something!
(We have been hiring about as fast as ever have.)
Good to know that the rich get a full 24 months of tax break extension! That makes it only slightly more difficult for them to complain about the extra 13 months of unemployment. That disparity is not quite 2 to 1, so I guess the poor get a break from the more normal 4 to 1 (and more) disparity in tax treatment. Wow! Merry Christmas!!
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQofwA6-nptWu6hg3B4_HD-cM2qOuc_n4sBnZ3IO8UrjWWb50QD)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on December 07, 2010, 01:25:03 PM
Ok, now that the uncertainty is gone, who has hired someone today?? Your bluff HAS been called! Do something!
(We have been hiring about as fast as ever have.)
Good to know that the rich get a full 24 months of tax break extension! That makes it only slightly more difficult for them to complain about the extra 13 months of unemployment. That disparity is not quite 2 to 1, so I guess the poor get a break from the more normal 4 to 1 (and more) disparity in tax treatment. Wow! Merry Christmas!!
We hired one programmer today. Now we have to relocate him from Virginia Beach.
I'm sure you couldn't care less, but I am very happy for you, your company, and the guy you hired. More economic activity for Tulsa. VERY good thing!
I guess Guido is crying because he only gets to keep double the rate of everyone else! Ahhhhh, poor Richey Rich!
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 07, 2010, 11:13:23 AM
Which one?
Conan's last weakly substantiated paragraph. Turn that one around to its other side. After years of excoriating Libs and likening them to a sickness which must be excised from the patient before it consumes him, there should be no surprise that most Americans refrain from describing themselves as a Liberal lest they expose themselves to ridicule, or worse. Take a look at remarks made on Yahoo following the story about Elizabeth Edwards' death.
"So what, Leftists aren't even human. They're killing our country", was the third remark made, but not the only one "excoriating" liberals, and this as a woman lay in her death bed. Classy. You expect people to call themselves liberals when they are promoted as less than human, morons and traitors? That's pre war Germany stuff.
Yet, when Americans are asked about issues that are mainstream Liberal or Democratic foundations, like health care, fair taxation, social security, human rights, etc.
and are not told what party or movement promotes them, guess what? They agree with them. They have moderate to Liberal tendencies. Imagine that. Gallup doesn't really test for that or if they do it isn't picked up on Conan's radar.
The strangest part to me is that if 80% of the population supports Conservatives and Conservative ideals, have elected politicians who have done the same, pretty much control most of the state legislators and have succeeded in loading up the Supreme Court with them.....why are things so grim? Why is our economy so screwed? Liberals must be the most powerful force on earth lead by an alien force of supreme power to counteract all the wonderful ideas and powerful logic they face in conservatism.
Yeah, that's it. Aliens. Eating our brains. Deluding us into gaying up and ending civilization quietly.
Quote from: waterboy on December 07, 2010, 06:04:11 PM
Conan's last weakly substantiated paragraph. Turn that one around to its other side. After years of excoriating Libs and likening them to a sickness which must be excised from the patient before it consumes him, there should be no surprise that most Americans refrain from describing themselves as a Liberal lest they expose themselves to ridicule, or worse. Take a look at remarks made on Yahoo following the story about Elizabeth Edwards' death. "So what, Leftists aren't even human. They're killing our country", was the third remark made, but not the only one "excoriating" liberals, and this as a woman lay in her death bed. Classy. You expect people to call themselves liberals when they are promoted as less than human, morons and traitors? That's pre war Germany stuff.
This bit of hypocrisy brought to you by a guy who called tea partiers "teabaggers". As for the morons that took a cheap shot at the left under a story about Edwards' passing, I trust you are similarly upset with those wishing/hoping for Cheney's death.
http://media.eyeblast.org/newsbusters/static/2009/05/2009-05-11-SchultzShow-Schultz3.mp3
http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2010/07/18/du-to-dick-cheney-drop-dead/
They called themselves Teabaggers. I did too, unaware of its sexual connotation until later. But thanks for following my posts while, as usual, ignoring their context and meaning. But really, Conan can take care of himself. I thought you, G, of all people would be a stickler for fairness. Red thinks that liberals vs conservative is just an opinion thing and wants to twist sentences back on themselves. Just returning the favor. You often do the same thing so you should be proud that you're a leader in this regard.
It wasn't Liberals who called Conservatives traitors on national TV and in print, that was Ann Coulter. See any prominent Liberals do that? I'm sure you'll find one. But no one comes to mind because no one did it with such venom and hate. No one in their right mind tells friends and co-workers in Oklahoma that they are Liberal when the boss has a bumper sticker that says, "how you like that change now?" or who spreads those cute memos talking about changes in the workplace that mean firing Obama supporters. Gingrich led the troops well. He gave them the skills and guys like DeLay enforced them with his velvet hammer. Two decades of demonizing has been very successful. I actually am impressed with their co-opting of marketing and consumer behavior teachings from the 60's. Liberal Democrats thought it was an aberration.
Now Churchill's famous remark that "No young man with a heart can be anything but liberal, and no old man with a brain can be anything but conservative" (sorry for the butchering of the quote) has been turned against him. He meant that part of life lessons is in moving through phases of compassion mixed with experience. You leave out a part of the formula when you corrupt youth into bypassing liberal precepts. You just become cynical. I am vastly more conservative than I was at 21 but alas, the generations behind me never even grasped what was common belief in my youth. Now my moderate views are considered practically socialist.
Nonetheless, another weird thing about polls, Gallup didn't do too well the last couple of elections. But unlike others, I didn't challenge their veracity because of where I read their results (often on Fox, often on Huffington). They simply aren't as good as they used to be. Here's another cool thing about polling issues.... American's were presented with a short paragraph back in the 80's that described a set of political views and were asked whether they supported such views. They overwhelmingly did not. In fact they considered them dangerously socialist. That paragraph was the Preamble to our constitution. It was funny at the time. Polls about issues are easily manipulated/mangled or just plain badly done and rarely represent the real beliefs of the interviewed.
WB,
You are (un)lucky enough that I am on vacation and have the time to respond.
QuoteOne is that the right wing is a lot more adept at achieving their goals at all costs than the left. Truth and conscience be damned they will sell granny out for the right price.
I consider that to be pretty inflammatory and uncalled for. I also happen to believe that the left is just as he11 bent on passing what it thinks is right regardless of the consequences. What you think is right or good/bad for the country is where opinion comes into play.
QuoteQuote from: Ed W on December 06, 2010, 09:49:59 pm
I'd find it very hard to believe that the right wing culture warriors could set aside their insistence that those of us on the left are somehow drunken, pot smoking, unabashed sinners hell bent on...well...hell.
my response:
QuoteYou forgot pot smoking. Get the stereotype right.
I'd find it very difficult to believe that the left wing could set aside their insistence that everyone right of somewhere slightly left of center is a religious tea partying right wing culture warrior crackpot.
I haven't heard too much lately from the left about responsible conservatives doing what they feel is right for the country. All I hear about from the left is the RWRE and Tea Party leading the country to destruction.
If you are objecting to the pot smoking comment, Where's your sense of humor? I even put the smiley after it.
From Hoss:
QuoteThe way I see it is that the TP has fractured the 'real' Republican party in such a way that those people that, as you put it, are 'right of somewhere slightly left of center' had to coddle to those far right extremists during election season, so as not to piss off that ever-growing TP population.
I see it more as not having a good, moderate selection from the left. Given a choice between extreme left and extreme right, it appears from the last election that a lot of people turned right. I do not see it as coddling the TP. There were some notable exceptions to turning right like the Senate race in Delaware. I (have to) admit that I even voted for a few Ds last election since I saw them as more reasonable or qualified than the R choice. In a couple of cases it wasn't actually that difficult.
from we vs us:
QuoteAnd Red Arrow, if the American Left had any ability to get things done at all you'd have a single payer healthcare option, billions more in s From timulus for infrastructure investment rather than tax cuts, and a higher tolerance for flexible tax policy. The fact that these things are all not only NOT in current legislation after the Ds controlled Congress and the White House, but are actually things we can't really talk about as future policy says all it needs to about the ability of the left to get things done.
OK, you didn't get exactly what you wanted. The extreme left didn't get their way entirely. The fact that the rest of the left got what they did is testimony to their ability to get things done. The so-called party of "no" couldn't stop them. I actually see it as two parties of "no compromise" and think it may actually be time for a party in the middle. The true middle, not somewhere left of California.
And from you:
QuoteConan's last weakly substantiated paragraph. Turn that one around to its other side. After years of excoriating Libs and likening them to a sickness which must be excised from the patient before it consumes him, there should be no surprise that most Americans refrain from describing themselves as a Liberal lest they expose themselves to ridicule, or worse.
Why should I want to do that? I generally do not support the liberal positon. You did a fine job.
QuoteTake a look at remarks made on Yahoo following the story about Elizabeth Edwards' death. "So what, Leftists aren't even human. They're killing our country", was the third remark made, but not the only one "excoriating" liberals, and this as a woman lay in her death bed. Classy.
I agree, not too classy. I used to watch Letterman. During the 2008 election, he became so vile and insulting to anyone not a left winger that I refuse to watch him even now.
QuoteYou expect people to call themselves liberals when they are promoted as less than human, morons and traitors? That's pre war Germany stuff.
I haven't seen you being too warm and friendly to conservatives.
I personally can't understand why anyone would
want to call themselves liberal but acknowledge that the need exists in some people. :)
QuoteYet, when Americans are asked about issues that are mainstream Liberal or Democratic foundations, like health care, fair taxation, social security, human rights, etc. and are not told what party or movement promotes them, guess what? They agree with them. They have moderate to Liberal tendencies. Imagine that. Gallup doesn't really test for that or if they do it isn't picked up on Conan's radar.
What? You're not claiming mom, apple pie, and Chevrolet (sorry Ford and MOPAR fans, it's a saying) as mainstream liberal/Democratic exclusives?
Ask almost anyone in the USA if they want health care reform and you will get a "yes". Then ask them how they want to do it and the answers will diverge.
Fair taxation is the same way. There have been several threads here on what everyone thinks is fair taxation.
I see Social Security as a forced savings plan for retirement. The first recipients got something for nothing but not since then. I see this as a reasonable compromise between liberals and stereotype heartless conservatives. There is something to insure you won't starve in your senior years and you were forced to contribute towards that support. If you want a better retirement, plan for it. Would I like a retirement plan like my dad had? (He contributed a significant amount of his salary which was partly matched by his employer to insure a reasonable income for him and/or mom for life. Typical for salary-exempt employees of his generation.) Sure, but they are mostly not available for a variety of reasons that could make another thread. I contribute to a 401K plan and my employer matches some of my contributions. I have also worked where there was a 401K but no matching contributions.
QuoteThe strangest part to me is that if 80% of the population supports Conservatives and Conservative ideals, have elected politicians who have done the same, pretty much control most of the state legislators and have succeeded in loading up the Supreme Court with them.....why are things so grim? Why is our economy so screwed?
I believe that the ideals of both parties are similar if you limit yourself to the ideal and keep away from specific items and the methods of getting there. I don't see conservatives calling for elimination of all health care options such that everything would come out of your personal wallet. I don't see conservatives saying that all income above $250,000. should be tax free. There are obviously some differences of
opinion belief of how to get to the basic goal.( Ex: Ideal, everyone should have healthcare. Specific, one payer government plan. Specific, private payer system.)
QuoteLiberals must be the most powerful force on earth lead by an alien force of supreme power to counteract all the wonderful ideas and powerful logic they face in conservatism.
Aliens, yeah, that would explain liberals. Oh yeah, are there no derogatory insinuations in "wonderful ideas and powerful logic"? You are not helping your case that conservatives should be kinder to liberals. Take the first step. You can do it. You are better than conservatives, you are a
liberal. (Yes, that was intended as a smart butt remark.)
QuoteYeah, that's it. Aliens. Eating our brains. Deluding us into gaying up and ending civilization quietly.
Are you saying that gays have had their brains eaten by aliens? That doesn't seem very liberal of you to even say that while trying to vilify conservatives. It might give them (hostage taker conservatives) ideas.
Edit: change non-exempt to salary-exempt. I usually get that backward the first try.

Quote from: waterboy on December 07, 2010, 07:30:40 PM
They called themselves Teabaggers. I did too, unaware of its sexual connotation until later. But thanks for following my posts while, as usual, ignoring their context and meaning. But really, Conan can take care of himself. I thought you, G, of all people would be a stickler for fairness. Red thinks that liberals vs conservative is just an opinion thing and wants to twist sentences back on themselves. Just returning the favor. You often do the same thing so you should be proud that you're a leader in this regard.
It wasn't Liberals who called Conservatives traitors on national TV and in print, that was Ann Coulter. See any prominent Liberals do that? I'm sure you'll find one. But no one comes to mind because no one did it with such venom and hate. No one in their right mind tells friends and co-workers in Oklahoma that they are Liberal when the boss has a bumper sticker that says, "how you like that change now?" or who spreads those cute memos talking about changes in the workplace that mean firing Obama supporters. Gingrich led the troops well. He gave them the skills and guys like DeLay enforced them with his velvet hammer. Two decades of demonizing has been very successful. I actually am impressed with their co-opting of marketing and consumer behavior teachings from the 60's. Liberal Democrats thought it was an aberration.
Now Churchill's famous remark that "No young man with a heart can be anything but liberal, and no old man with a brain can be anything but conservative" (sorry for the butchering of the quote) has been turned against him. He meant that part of life lessons is in moving through phases of compassion mixed with experience. You leave out a part of the formula when you corrupt youth into bypassing liberal precepts. You just become cynical. I am vastly more conservative than I was at 21 but alas, the generations behind me never even grasped what was common belief in my youth. Now my moderate views are considered practically socialist.
Nonetheless, another weird thing about polls, Gallup didn't do too well the last couple of elections. But unlike others, I didn't challenge their veracity because of where I read their results (often on Fox, often on Huffington). They simply aren't as good as they used to be. Here's another cool thing about polling issues.... American's were presented with a short paragraph back in the 80's that described a set of political views and were asked whether they supported such views. They overwhelmingly did not. In fact they considered them dangerously socialist. That paragraph was the Preamble to our constitution. It was funny at the time. Polls about issues are easily manipulated/mangled or just plain badly done and rarely represent the real beliefs of the interviewed.
That's quite a ramble.
I generally find people more entrenched to the far left or far right are either much more intolerant of opposing views or simply believe anyone who disagrees with their world view is entirely wrong alltogether. You even take it to the extent of suggesting there are far more closeted liberals out there, they simply won't admit it for fear of being lampooned and carted off to an internment camp. Can you not see this same behavior being put upon the Christian right in this country? People on either end of the spectrum are being villified with ever-increasing acrimony. The real shame of it is the 60% or so of us in the middle of the political and social view spectrum are being over-shadowed by a much smaller and fractured percent of the populace. I suspect it's because the moderate view is maybe boring and the liberal-pandering and conservative-pandering media don't cover it. It sells more ads to show people carrying guns at Tea Party rallies or libs staging peace rallies.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 08, 2010, 12:58:06 PM
It sells more ads to show people carrying guns at Tea Party rallies or libs staging peace rallies.
Or even noting that one get together at Washington DC left more or less litter than the other get together.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 08, 2010, 01:05:56 PM
Or even noting that one get together at Washington DC left more or less litter than the other get together.
But tell me, does it help your cause to have a known member of the Tea Party rambling about '2nd amendment remedies' if the election doesn't go their way? You have to admit that's some serious rhetoric right there.
Quote from: Hoss on December 08, 2010, 01:28:37 PM
But tell me, does it help your cause to have a known member of the Tea Party rambling about '2nd amendment remedies' if the election doesn't go their way? You have to admit that's some serious rhetoric right there.
But why does the media get stuck on issues like that and blow it up as big as it can? They resort to a Jerry Springer formula to report on politics, especially the commentary shows. Far too many of the people who watch those shows understand it's all editorialized fact, innuendo, and some stuff made up for emphasis.
I'd be a whole lot more inspired by reporting of areas where Dems and Pugs have had great bipartisan unity, or reporting that the majority of Americans, who happen to consider themselves "moderate" would like to see a compromise instead of it being the far right wants something and the left is blocking it or vice versa.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 08, 2010, 02:26:40 PM
I'd be a whole lot more inspired by reporting of areas where Dems and Pugs have had great bipartisan unity, or reporting that the majority of Americans, who happen to consider themselves "moderate" would like to see a compromise instead of it being the far right wants something and the left is blocking it or vice versa.
I agree that it would be nice if the media would report from the middle, but that doesn't get ratings, so it's not as financially rewarding. It's a failure of the market, but I don't really know how to fix it. There's always the News Hour or BBC, but PBS is subject to political pressure and the news show on BBC America doesn't have the best coverage of US issues.
Al Gore screwed us when he bought News World International and turned it into current. There were enough news broadcasts from around the world that it was possible to get a sense of what's really going on without having to scour the Internet. Stuff from the CBC, BBC, DWTV, some channel in Australia, and a Japanese newscast were on every single day.
Every once in a blue moon Dateline or 60 Minutes will do some serious investigative reporting that reminds me of quality journalism, but it's far too rare for my taste.
Here's another rabid tea partier calling for violence:
Political talk is hard work Red. Thanks for reading my post and responding with passion even though I can't do the same. Go back to the chaise, pop the top and turn on ESPN. And know that I envy you.
Seriously, I see, and talk to so many people during the day in a retail environment. It stuns me how many people blurt out their (conservative) politics to me without invitation to do so. Usually anti Obama, anti labor, anti health insurance in nature. I can't remember anyone doing so during the Bush administration while I worked here though I know the net was humming and i do remember those cool stencils of W with the words, "Bush Lies". Duh. Politicians lie. Check Wikileaks. I think we're just all in different worlds.
Speaking of, Conan comes in occasionally. We're cordial, we're businesslike and I know we are tons apart in most of our political views but that we still each have moderate views we share. That should be the norm. Truthfully, I don't see a third party, a fourth party or multi parties with coalitions doing any good. We're talking human nature here. Put your faith in politics, government and your fellow man and you'll always be disappointed.
Quote from: guido911 on December 08, 2010, 02:42:20 PM
Here's another rabid tea partier calling for violence:
Thank God they're not armed!
Quote from: waterboy on December 08, 2010, 02:46:19 PM
Seriously, I see, and talk to so many people during the day in a retail environment. It stuns me how many people blurt out their (conservative) politics to me without invitation to do so. Usually anti Obama, anti labor, anti health insurance in nature. I can't remember anyone doing so during the Bush administration while I worked here though I know the net was humming and i do remember those cool stencils of W with the words, "Bush Lies". Duh. Politicians lie. Check Wikileaks. I think we're just all in different worlds.
I expect you would have heard more uninvited anti-Bush stuff if you lived in a state as blue as OK is red.
One of my cousins lived in Boston in the electronic bubble of the 80s. She asked why I didn't consider moving there. I told her I didn't think I could live with MA politics. That and the cost of housing/living there was already too high for my (could be expected) salary and what I wanted for a life.
Quote from: waterboy on December 08, 2010, 02:46:19 PM
Go back to the chaise, pop the top and turn on ESPN. And know that I envy you.
I didn't have anyplace I wanted to go this year so I have some vacation to use or lose.
Maybe I'll go sit in my rocking chair I've had since my college days and watch FOX. ;D It's a little too early for a cool one yet. I do have a big Jamoke waiting in the refrigerator. I drank the El CuCuy last weekend, along with a 6 pack of Sundowner Wheat. All good stuff. (I don't think there was a reference to Marshall's in this thread yet.)
Quote from: Conan71 on December 08, 2010, 02:26:40 PM
But why does the media get stuck on issues like that and blow it up as big as it can? They resort to a Jerry Springer formula to report on politics, especially the commentary shows. Far too many of the people who watch those shows understand it's all editorialized fact, innuendo, and some stuff made up for emphasis.
I'd be a whole lot more inspired by reporting of areas where Dems and Pugs have had great bipartisan unity, or reporting that the majority of Americans, who happen to consider themselves "moderate" would like to see a compromise instead of it being the far right wants something and the left is blocking it or vice versa.
Because they can? You still didn't answer my question. Rhetoric? Yes or no?
Admittedly, I could really care less, because it sounds a lot more like political grandstanding. That and this is the candidate (Sharron Angle) who did her level best to run from foot reporters asking her questions. But it still bears asking the question. You can't just brush off a backhanded threat to use a '2nd amendment remedy'.
I'd love to see the bipartisan unity also. It should have started in the first half of his presidency. The problem is that the Republicans wanted none of it, until they had at least one element in their favor (the House). Remember some of the statements from Republicans about 'breaking' Obama and that healthcare would be 'his Waterloo'. That's just some serious partisan stuff going on right there.
But hey, that's just my flatulen....err....opinion.
Quote from: Hoss on December 08, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
Because they can? You still didn't answer my question. Rhetoric? Yes or no?
Admittedly, I could really care less, because it sounds a lot more like political grandstanding. That and this is the candidate (Sharron Angle) who did her level best to run from foot reporters asking her questions. But it still bears asking the question. You can't just brush off a backhanded threat to use a '2nd amendment remedy'.
I'd love to see the bipartisan unity also. It should have started in the first half of his presidency. The problem is that the Republicans wanted none of it, until they had at least one element in their favor (the House). Remember some of the statements from Republicans about 'breaking' Obama and that healthcare would be 'his Waterloo'. That's just some serious partisan stuff going on right there.
But hey, that's just my flatulen....err....opinion.
I don't really know Ms. Angle's background and can only assume she wasn't quite used to the idea yet that when she makes off the cuff remarks like that while running for one of the more visible seats in the last election that it's not the same as making that comment amongst family and friends or down at the bar. The cameras and tape are always rolling.
I didn't realize I was supposed to answer a question though. My ADD is acting up today. I think Angle's comments were blown out of proportion, taken out of context, and blown up simply because it was a two or three day sound bite that got ratings for MSNBC and even Faux for taking time to deflect and analyze it. Like I said, our media establishment has finally resorted to politics for entertainment, and therefore learned that Jerry Springer antics is great for revenue.
Consider that when you and I were in high school political reporting was on 2,6,8 on the evening news, Headline News, and the main CNN channels. They didn't have lengthy commentary programs other than Meet The Press and that was pretty balanced when looking at issues. Now you can gorge on partisan politics via Faux or MSNBC 24/7 while reading all about it via the internet. There are people growing up in this political environment who believe O'Really or Madcow to be un-biased in their coverage.
Then you get the people with not much of a filter, who scan a headline, or hear half a conversation, and let their imagination run wild. One of my old classmates had a FB post this morning chastising the Tulsa "town council" for taking the word "Christmas" out of the parade title. Totally uninformed and I'm sure she's influenced others in thinking that's how it went down.
Olberdoosh, Matthews, Madcow, etc. can all hate in Limpbaugh all they like. If not for him, none of these other talking heads would have gained so much in popularity. Political voyuerism has been a major commercial hit.
Conservative dems claiming liberal dems holding tax cuts hostage.
QuoteRep. Dan Boren (Okla.), among the most conservative Democrats on Capitol Hill, said he's "extremely displeased" that the White House-GOP deal might not come to the floor as it stands.
"A clear majority of the U.S. House of Representatives supports this plan," Boren said in a statement. "We are allowing the liberal wing of the Democratic caucus to hold these critically needed tax cuts hostage."
Democratic leaders, he added, "are either not listening to what the voters are saying, or they are not interested in doing what is best for the American economy."
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/132947-moderate-conservative-dems-up-in-arms-over-liberals-tax-deal-backlash
Looks like ol' Obama's taunts are coming back to haunt him--from members of his own party.