Heard someone talking about this the other day and did some research. Apparently PSO was going to build a nuclear power plant on the Verdigris River near Inola and even started clearing the land, building roads, etc. but it was shut down by environmentalists. I wonder if they would ever resurrect this project? It could bring lots of jobs to that area, and nuclear power is a lot safer now than it was in the early 70's.
You can still see the site on Google Maps. Follow 31st St. east to the Verdigris River and there it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fox_Nuclear_Power_Plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fox_Nuclear_Power_Plant)
Quote from: SXSW on November 12, 2010, 08:38:51 AM
Heard someone talking about this the other day and did some research. Apparently PSO was going to build a nuclear power plant on the Verdigris River near Inola and even started clearing the land, building roads, etc. but it was shut down by environmentalists. I wonder if they would ever resurrect this project? It could bring lots of jobs to that area, and nuclear power is a lot safer now than it was in the early 70's.
You can still see the site on Google Maps. Follow 31st St. east to the Verdigris River and there it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fox_Nuclear_Power_Plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fox_Nuclear_Power_Plant)
Too much of a stigma behind it. Were you around for this? It was big news in the area for quite a long time. Essentially one person brought it down...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Barefoot_Dickerson
Quote from: Hoss on November 12, 2010, 08:56:20 AM
Too much of a stigma behind it. Were you around for this? It was big news in the area for quite a long time. Essentially one person brought it down...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Barefoot_Dickerson
Between this and Karen Silkwood/KerrMcGee etal, I don't think Oklahoma will ever see a nuclear power plant.
Yeah, I found out about this a couple of years back when Dickerson died. Rather unfortunate that it didn't end up getting built.
I'm sure she meant well, but she is responsible for the release of far more radioactivity into the environment than Black Fox would have released. Not to mention more GHGs, particulates, and everything else that comes out of smokestacks. Even if you don't believe in anthropogenic climate change, burning coal is stupid. Burning natural gas is better, but the price volatility is enough to give a person a heart attack.
It's understandable, but unfortunate.
Quote from: nathanm on November 12, 2010, 09:16:11 AM
Yeah, I found out about this a couple of years back when Dickerson died. Rather unfortunate that it didn't end up getting built.
If KerrMcGee supposedly felt they had to have a whistleblower killed over the threat of exposing safety issues, then the outcome of building BF might not have been as rosy as you suggest.
Quote from: patric on November 12, 2010, 09:32:16 AM
If KerrMcGee supposedly felt they had to have a whistleblower killed over the threat of exposing safety issues, then the outcome of building BF might not have been as rosy as you suggest.
I was not only refering to Silkwood, but the safety record at the Gore, OK plant in the late 70's and into the 80's,
"Creating further negative publicity for the embattled company, Kerr-McGee's nuclear-fuel processing plant in Gore, Oklahoma, was cited by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission for 15 health and safety infractions between 1978 and 1986. In 1986 an overfilled cylinder of uranium hexafluoride exploded, releasing a toxic cloud of radioactive hydrofluoric acid. One employee died, and 110 people were hospitalized. This fueled public outcry and set in motion a number of legal proceedings. The controversy surrounding the incident was further exacerbated when the Nuclear Regulatory Commission accused Kerr-McGee of giving a false statement during the commission's investigation."
http://www.answers.com/topic/kerr-mcgee-corporation (http://www.answers.com/topic/kerr-mcgee-corporation)
Not quite sure how to share a link to a site on Google Earth but the coordinates are:
36° 6'55.47"N 95°32'46.92"W
I drove out there six or seven years ago and IIRC, the area remains fenced and gated. Looks like it would be a great industrial park.
The threat from Three Mile Island was probably over-blown, but that near disaster really put the pinch on further nuclear development and there was no way PSO could overcome the fear and ignorance of nuclear power at the time.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 12, 2010, 09:47:03 AM
Not quite sure how to share a link to a site on Google Earth but the coordinates are:
36° 6'55.47"N 95°32'46.92"W
I drove out there six or seven years ago and IIRC, the area remains fenced and gated. Looks like it would be a great industrial park.
The threat from Three Mile Island was probably over-blown, but that near disaster really put the pinch on further nuclear development and there was no way PSO could overcome the fear and ignorance of nuclear power at the time.
Let me help with that:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=36.116245,-95.548525&spn=0.024753,0.038581&t=h&z=15
Quote from: Conan71 on November 12, 2010, 09:47:03 AM
The threat from Three Mile Island was probably over-blown, but that near disaster really put the pinch on further nuclear development and there was no way PSO could overcome the fear and ignorance of nuclear power at the time.
I had to go and look it to remember which was first. "The China Syndrome" was released March 16 1979, Three Mile Island was March 28, 1979. Combine those two and the battle over Black Fox, and at the time the still mysterious Silkwood case, and you had the perfect storm to kill any chance of a nuclear power plant in Oklahoma.
Quote from: patric on November 12, 2010, 09:32:16 AM
If KerrMcGee supposedly felt they had to have a whistleblower killed over the threat of exposing safety issues, then the outcome of building BF might not have been as rosy as you suggest.
Please name one nuclear power plant in the US that has released a significant amount of radiation into the environment. By significant, I mean as much as a typical coal-fired plant releases into the environment in a single year. You won't find one.
What you will find is a history of shoddy implementation by the military, but reasonably good safety by regulated utilities. That's not to say they have a perfect record, but problems are caught before they get to the point where radiation release is an issue, despite our outdated designs and plants running far longer than their original design life.
The only good thing about Black Fox is that PSO didn't get the whole thing built before giving up like LILCO did.
Regarding the danger from unsafe processing plants, it's primarily a heavy metal contamination problem. If you ingest a bunch of uranium, you'll die from poisoning, not cancer. Plutonium is somewhat worse regarding radioactivity, but even then its primary danger before being used in a reactor isn't its radioactivity. We're surrounded by radioactive things every day. You're probably breathing in some coal effluent as we speak. That's chock full of uranium and thorium, by the way.
When people talk about the safety of a nuclear power plant, they frequently forget about the safety of mining and processing coal.
The containment vessel at Three Mile Island did its job. The Russian design at Chernobyl (sp?) was clearly not up to the task.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 12, 2010, 10:03:22 AM
When people talk about the safety of a nuclear power plant, they frequently forget about the safety of mining and processing coal.
The containment vessel at Three Mile Island did its job. The Russian design at Chernobyl (sp?) was clearly not up to the task.
Once we could finally get a real look at the interior of the former USSR, it was pretty shocking how far behind they were in technology in so many ways. I recall having a conversation with a Fedx pilot who flew routes overseas that the former USSR only had a handful of VOR's, most of their air navigation was still being done by ADF. She said it always seemed highly implausible to her they could have ever managed to direct a missile more than 500 miles away.
Here's a fascinating journey through the Chernobyl region:
http://www.kiddofspeed.com/default.htm
Quote from: Conan71 on November 12, 2010, 09:47:03 AM
Not quite sure how to share a link to a site on Google Earth but the coordinates are:
36° 6'55.47"N 95°32'46.92"W
I drove out there six or seven years ago and IIRC, the area remains fenced and gated. Looks like it would be a great industrial park.
The threat from Three Mile Island was probably over-blown, but that near disaster really put the pinch on further nuclear development and there was no way PSO could overcome the fear and ignorance of nuclear power at the time.
I didn't realize it was so close to Tulsa. Extend 31st or 41st a few miles east and build a bridge across the Verdigris and it's only about 17-18 miles directly from the heart of midtown and only about 9 miles from the Creek South Loop. The nuclear plant near Glen Rose, TX employs 1,300 people. If such a plant were built and they made the necessary improvements to either 31st or 41st it would be a boon for growth in east Tulsa.
I'm curious if PSO still holds the deed for that property. They could still build a gas powered or biomass plant if they find the cost and risk of nuclear isn't worth it.
This is how I recall things going down.
Carrie Dickerson's activism without a doubt had an influence on the outcome, but the cancellation was due more to economic than environmental concerns.
The problem with the Black Fox plant was that it wasn't needed to meet PSO's customer demand at any time during its lifespan. The entire reason it was proposed was that Oklahoma was the only state that didn't require a permit from the appropriate regulatory agency, in our case the Corporation Commission, before building the plant. The electricity was mainly intended to be sold on the interstate grid, but the capital cost would have been added to PSO's rate base, which would have increased electricity rates for PSO customers without benefiting them in any way. As it turns out, the Corporation Commission discovered they did have the power to approve or disapprove the issuance of bonds to finance the project. They worked out a deal with PSO to add the pre-cancellation costs to the rate base in return for PSO's cancellation of the project.
You can see many smaller gas-powered generating plants across the state that do not generate power for local consumption. The Calpine plant near Oneta/Coweta was built specifically to sell to California. Last I heard (quite some time ago), it had not sold a single kilowatt, but at least it was not added to any public utility rate base. These plants located here because of a good supply of low-cost natural gas and because there were fewer regulatory barriers to construction.
AEP/PSO's issues at present don't involve a lack of generating capacity. The distribution infrastructure is quite fragile. AEP/PSO would more productively use its resources to shore up that infrastructure than building new plants just because they can.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 12, 2010, 10:23:27 AM
Here's a fascinating journey through the Chernobyl region:
Summary: You don't want to be a human living there unless you like cancer, but it sure turned into a nice nature preserve. Just don't eat the wildlife.
I was Googling around trying to find photos of Black Fox and came across this Interesting link:
http://www.nukeworker.com/maps/facility/BlackFox.html
You can find the nearest bar or Walmart from your favorite nuke plant.
Quote from: cynical on November 12, 2010, 10:52:38 AM
This is how I recall things going down.
Carrie Dickerson's activism without a doubt had an influence on the outcome, but the cancellation was due more to economic than environmental concerns.
The problem with the Black Fox plant was that it wasn't needed to meet PSO's customer demand at any time during its lifespan. The entire reason it was proposed was that Oklahoma was the only state that didn't require a permit from the appropriate regulatory agency, in our case the Corporation Commission, before building the plant. The electricity was mainly intended to be sold on the interstate grid, but the capital cost would have been added to PSO's rate base, which would have increased electricity rates for PSO customers without benefiting them in any way. As it turns out, the Corporation Commission discovered they did have the power to approve or disapprove the issuance of bonds to finance the project. They worked out a deal with PSO to add the pre-cancellation costs to the rate base in return for PSO's cancellation of the project.
You can see many smaller gas-powered generating plants across the state that do not generate power for local consumption. The Calpine plant near Oneta/Coweta was built specifically to sell to California. Last I heard (quite some time ago), it had not sold a single kilowatt, but at least it was not added to any public utility rate base. These plants located here because of a good supply of low-cost natural gas and because there were fewer regulatory barriers to construction.
AEP/PSO's issues at present don't involve a lack of generating capacity. The distribution infrastructure is quite fragile. AEP/PSO would more productively use its resources to shore up that infrastructure than building new plants just because they can.
Cynical, that matches what I was told by a PSO accountant who shared that info with me in the 80's when our sons were both in Scouts. He was angry and bemused that even though it was not going to be economically beneficial for them, and, that the battle with environmentalists was looming large and unneccessary, PSO still intended to do battle. It was a money loser from the start. Btw, a close friend of mine was arrested for trespass during one of Carrie's demonstrations. Fun times.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 12, 2010, 11:09:35 AM
I was Googling around trying to find photos of Black Fox and came across this Interesting link:
http://www.nukeworker.com/maps/facility/BlackFox.html
You can find the nearest bar or Walmart from your favorite nuke plant.
Yeah, I found that as well earlier this morning and chuckled a little. I just reconnected with an old friend who now lives out in Inola. Maybe there's a Holiday Inn Express out there somewhere!
Quote from: Hoss on November 12, 2010, 11:58:03 AM
Yeah, I found that as well earlier this morning and chuckled a little. I just reconnected with an old friend who now lives out in Inola. Maybe there's a Holiday Inn Express out there somewhere!
You'll be wicked smart.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 12, 2010, 10:36:34 AM
I'm curious if PSO still holds the deed for that property. They could still build a gas powered or biomass plant if they find the cost and risk of nuclear isn't worth it.
As of 2 years ago they still did.
Quote from: Vision 2025 on November 16, 2010, 05:03:16 PM
As of 2 years ago they still did.
I was told by someone that they still use it to park train cars on occasion.
I wasn't at PSO at the time, and I don't know anyone who was tied to the project, so I have no real knowledge, but I've heard that even though Carrie Dickerson took the credit, she had no real effect on the decision to abandon the project.
The Coweta plant was mentioned but there is also an independent plant in Jenks. PSO does need some increase in generating capacity and have actually contracted to buy a large portion of the Jenks plant's output. PLants last for decades but PSO is almost entirely natural-gas burning and natural gas prices are higher and more fickle than coal or nuclear.
There was never an economic justification to build the plant. It was a cluster from the git-go. Big part of it was the ego strokes for the CEO at the time - can't remember his name, but he really was an arrogant something. And they lied like dogs to try to push it through. One of the numbers they kept throwing around was $160 million - like they expected to build it for that. Later, I heard that had spent that much on the slab that was out there and digging in the dirt.
Few years later, I got to visit a nuke in Canada. It was one of the most advanced designs in the world - still is as modern a design as there is, I guess. There were emergency systems all over the place and when they started to fuel up and start reactor #5, there was a problem. The thing came within minutes of melting into the ground. Turns out all the emergency coolant pumps were installed backwards, so when the fuel rod tubes started to sag just before melting, the emergency coolant water wasn't going the right way! Through the reactor.
And while they had somewhere around 15,000 x-rays of welds of supports holding the fuel rods, when the reactor fuel rod holders were looked at, they could only find about 5,000 actual welds of supports holding the fuel rods.
Low bid at its best. Long story short, they went back and fixed it. I guess. 6 of the 8 reactors are still chugging along.
Here's a link. 5 thru 8 were started up in early '80s. Got to climb all over the containment room of reactor 5. Very cool to visit. Would NOT work there.
http://www.opg.com/power/nuclear/pickering/
Carrie worked hard to stop Black Fox, but the totally stupid economics of the thing are what finally did it in. And those economics have done nothing but get worse. Uranium is at 'historic' lows recently, but that is mainly because we are buying it from Russia where they are "mining" it from all their nuclear bombs. And many of the mines here where uranium is mined for real are filling up with ground water making it impossible to get to AS WELL AS the extra added benefit of ground water contamination for about the next 50,000 years or so. Yay, team!!
Carrie had a little health food store out in Claremore for a long time - until she died. Just a little tidbit of clutter for the mind to savor and enjoy.
I don't terribly enjoy being at the mercy of third party generators for anything but peaking. Remember how they managed to give a good screwing to the ratepayers out in California some years back? >:(
That was Enron. And our very own Devon Energy in OKC and Williams Brothers here in T-town.
Enron was the big player - the others were along for the free ride.
Directly a result of FERC deregulation.