Big decrease.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9HVCHPO1.htm
"They're certainly acting together," he said. Passel said illegal immigrants now find it more expensive and dangerous to cross into the U.S. and also have less incentive to do so given the languishing job market in construction and other low-wage industries."
And I suspect that our bigoted laws have something to do with it. Haters.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 02, 2010, 03:09:06 PM
"They're certainly acting together," he said. Passel said illegal immigrants now find it more expensive and dangerous to cross into the U.S. and also have less incentive to do so given the languishing job market in construction and other low-wage industries."
And I suspect that our bigoted laws have something to do with it. Haters.
Good... (sorry, that's the (R) coming out in me...)
Correlation is not causation. The number of illegal crossings was dropping before the xenophobe law in Arizona.
Quote from: nathanm on September 02, 2010, 04:13:40 PM
Correlation is not causation. The number of illegal crossings was dropping before the xenophobe law in Arizona.
It's kinda like all of the crimeaphobe laws we have against thieves, murderers, larcenists and embezzlers. Why can't we learn to embrace these alternative lifestyles?
Quote from: Gaspar on September 03, 2010, 07:31:20 AM
It's kinda like all of the crimeaphobe laws we have against thieves, murderers, larcenists and embezzlers. Why can't we learn to embrace these alternative lifestyles?
Wow, way to paint a false equivalence. Try harder next time. It's more fun when you make it believable.
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 09:20:02 AM
Wow, way to paint a false equivalence. Try harder next time. It's more fun when you make it believable.
Please explain why it's a false equivalence. I do have to admit though it was the best laugh I've had this morning so far. I simply don't understand why it is we should be willing to tolerate certain crimes or accept that flaunting the legal means by which most of our families became U.S. citizens is perfectly fine.
Many of these, let's see what's the latest PC term, oh yes: "currently un-registered future voters" create false documents to get the benefits of legal immigrants and U.S. citizens which would get you or I thrown in prison. They don't file tax returns, create false SS numbers, seldom purchase auto liability insurance, don't have a properly issued driver's license. These are all things which if I did them, I would recieve quite a bit of scorn and a couple of the things would land me in jail. And yet it's all our fault they break the law because we have these hateful laws directed soley at the brown people down south.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 03, 2010, 09:40:51 AM
Please explain why it's a false equivalence.
He equated my statement that the law is not the cause of the reduced illegal border crossings with some imagined lack of support for our criminal laws.
Moreover, there's a second level of false equivalence, in that illegal border crossing only harms the person illegally crossing, not the rest of society like the crimes he enumerated.
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 09:44:20 AM
He equated my statement that the law is not the cause of the reduced illegal border crossings with some imagined lack of support for our criminal laws.
Moreover, there's a second level of false equivalence, in that illegal border crossing only harms the person illegally crossing, not the rest of society like the crimes he enumerated.
Wait, you are saying that crossing the border illegally only harms the person crossing it or did I mis-read that?
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 09:44:20 AM
He equated my statement that the law is not the cause of the reduced illegal border crossings with some imagined lack of support for our criminal laws.
Moreover, there's a second level of false equivalence, in that illegal border crossing only harms the person illegally crossing, not the rest of society like the crimes he enumerated.
(http://blog.karmona.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/ostrich_head_sand.jpg)
Quote from: Conan71 on September 03, 2010, 10:25:16 AM
Wait, you are saying that crossing the border illegally only harms the person crossing it or did I mis-read that?
If you have a problem with my statement, why don't you explain how illegal border crossing is morally equivalent to murder, larceny, or embezzlement.
Quote from: Gaspar on September 03, 2010, 07:31:20 AM
It's kinda like all of the crimeaphobe laws we have against thieves, murderers, larcenists and embezzlers. Why can't we learn to embrace these alternative lifestyles?
Smackdown. I am so sick of hearing dooshbags referring to enforcement of immigration laws as "xenophobic".
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 11:14:22 AM
If you have a problem with my statement, why don't you explain how illegal border crossing is morally equivalent to murder, larceny, or embezzlement.
Equivalent to murder, no. Equivalent to theft, yes.
Quote from: guido911 on September 03, 2010, 11:44:01 AM
Smackdown. I am so sick of hearing dooshbags referring to enforcement of immigration laws as "xenophobic".
Given the lack of any other reasoning put forth, other than the drug mules, which are a byproduct of our own drug laws and demand, and could be handled much better by relaxing requirements to come here legally, it's a reasonable conclusion to make.
Conan, what are they stealing from you?
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 12:18:05 PM
Given the lack of any other reasoning put forth, other than the drug mules, which are a byproduct of our own drug laws and demand, and could be handled much better by relaxing requirements to come here legally, it's a reasonable conclusion to make.
Conan, what are they stealing from you?
How do people wind up with such lazy logic? Did you learn this in college?
Quote from: Conan71 on September 03, 2010, 12:22:55 PM
How do people wind up with such lazy logic? Did you learn this in college?
What specifically do you disagree with?
Let's start with how our laws make drug mules break the law and go from there.
"the drug mules, which are a byproduct of our own drug laws and demand, and could be handled much better by relaxing requirements to come here legally"
Quote from: Conan71 on September 03, 2010, 12:58:47 PM
Let's start with how our laws make drug mules break the law and go from there.
"the drug mules, which are a byproduct of our own drug laws and demand, and could be handled much better by relaxing requirements to come here legally"
OK. Our draconian drug laws are what creates the profit motive for them to do what they do. Keeping it outside the bounds of the law means that when business deals go bad their only recourse is violence. If you take the massive profits out of the equation, there would be no incentive for them to continue doing what they do.
We claim to be capitalist, but fail to see how capitalism is exactly what's driving the drug trade. Trying to work against that is like trying to empty the ocean with a bucket.
If we are going to insist on keeping those incentives in place, relaxing legal immigration requirements and increasing penalties for illegal crossing would drive the otherwise law-abiding folks to the legal crossings, making it much harder for the drug mules to slip across the border in a crowd of "normal" illegal border crossers. A large part of our enforcement issue is just that there's so damn many people coming across we can't catch them all.
Once you know that all the people who aren't a real problem are crossing at the checkpoints, you know that all the people not doing so are those who we have a very strong self interest in preventing from crossing. Why bother crossing illegally if you can get in legally?
Why not just answer the question, Conan. What are they stealing from you?
A job? Go to http://www.takeourjobs.org/
They will train you and put you to work.
We invited them! I know it is tough for some to remember the reality with all the Murdochian spew going around, but it is still true. In spite of the RWRE lies!
"Stealing" my tax dollars to educate their children, provide medical care, and house their rear ends with three hots and a cot while they are in jail for gosh knows what reason. Now, I cannot verify the veracity of this website, but I think most will get the picture (oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?).
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims_2.html
Quote from: guido911 on September 03, 2010, 02:20:56 PM
"Stealing" my tax dollars to educate their children, provide medical care, and house their rear ends with three hots and a cot while they are in jail for gosh knows what reason. Now, I cannot verify the veracity of this website, but I think most will get the picture (oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?).
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims_2.html
Then why post it?
"(oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?)."
Prove it.
Quote from: we vs us on September 03, 2010, 02:40:02 PM
Then why post it?
"(oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?)."
Prove it.
He doesn't have to. They're not like him...so obviously they are violent criminals.
Quote from: we vs us on September 03, 2010, 02:40:02 PM
Then why post it?
"(oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?)."
Prove it.
I see the ban-aid brigade is out in full force, covering your wounded buddies. Seriously, do you really want to get into a debate as to violent crimes committed by illegal immigrants? If so, once I get to my vaca destination, I will give you some. In the meantime, do yourself a favor and google "illegal immigration violent crime" and educate yourself. You can start with this one, which incidentally points out the obvious that most illegal immigrants are not violent criminals:
QuoteNevertheless, it is also fact that a disproportionately high percentage of illegal aliens are criminals and sexual predators. That is part of the dark side of illegal immigration and when we simply allow the "good' in we get the "bad" along with them. Ignoring the fact that just being an illegal alien already makes one a criminal, the question is, how much really "bad" is acceptable and what price are we willing to pay in terms of the collateral damage being inflicted by simply allowing all of them in?
This section will concentrate on violent crimes committed by illegal aliens against people. The following section will detail the SEXUAL CRIME being committed by illegal aliens. While most sexual crime is violent as well, there is just too much horrific crime being committed by illegal aliens to cover it all in one section. In any case, I do not mean to minimize the tremendous devastation upon Americans and society in general from a significant number of additional property and other crimes being committed by illegal aliens.
As an example of a rapidly growing crime that has a high illegal alien participation, causing many months if not years of misery for the victim, see the GAO's report IDENTITY FRAUD – Prevalence and Links to Illegal Alien Activity, as well as Identity Theft is a Serious Immigration Issue and Illegal Aliens Steal Identities To Get American Jobs.
If you happened to be the victim of identity theft by an illegal alien you probably don't think it was a "victimless" crime. If you haven't been the victim of ID theft but would like to know what the fuss is all about, see: 10-year-old girl victim of ID theft, Two women, one ID and plenty of problems, As victim of identity theft, I wish several things would happen, and Illicit Use of Social Security Information Rises. Also note Faye Bowers' article in the Christian Science Monitor, An Illegal Immigration Link to Identity Theft, to see how easy and cheap it is to get the documents stealing YOUR identification.
Additionally, there is a plethora of other criminal activities with a high illegal alien participation, including such crimes involving cocaine, methamphetamine, home invasion, auto insurance fraud, life insurance fraud, food stamp fraud, mortgage fraud, auto theft, drug trafficking, prostitution, more prostitution, and, of course, counterfeiting documents.
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime.html
Now, that's two reference sites I have provided, care to counter or just whine?
Quote from: guido911 on September 03, 2010, 02:54:17 PM
covering your wounded buddies.
Ever wonder what that's like? To have buddies? Or do you just sit there in the basement weeping?
The act gets old.
Quote from: guido911 on September 03, 2010, 02:20:56 PM
"Stealing" my tax dollars to educate their children, provide medical care, and house their rear ends with three hots and a cot while they are in jail for gosh knows what reason. Now, I cannot verify the veracity of this website, but I think most will get the picture (oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?).
Um, you do realize that illegal immigrants pay taxes, right? They are almost 100% certain to pay for their kid's school the same as anyone who owns or rents a place to live or who buys anything. They aren't eligible for public assistance, so they aren't costing you anything there. They often pay income and payroll tax, yet will never be eligible for social security or medicare and overpay income tax since they can't get a refund, since they made up a social security number.
The only leg you have to stand on is the medical care thing, and personally, I'd rather not have an underclass spreading disease, but that's just me. Moreover, far more of the medical cost issue has to do with people living longer, having more expensive drastic medical interventions and ridiculously expensive new technology than it does with illegal immigrants.
Basically, the vast majority of them provide you with a net tax gain (and would much prefer to be here legally and be sure of paying their fair share), and otherwise don't harm you, yet you grumble for no particular reason. The definition of xenophobia.
Even if I accept that many illegal immigrants are violent criminals, wouldn't reducing the number of illegal crossings by nonviolent people help us police the border better?
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 03:33:41 PM
Um, you do realize that illegal immigrants pay taxes, right? They are almost 100% certain to pay for their kid's school the same as anyone who owns or rents a place to live or who buys anything. They aren't eligible for public assistance, so they aren't costing you anything there. They often pay income and payroll tax, yet will never be eligible for social security or medicare and overpay income tax since they can't get a refund, since they made up a social security number.
The only leg you have to stand on is the medical care thing, and personally, I'd rather not have an underclass spreading disease, but that's just me. Moreover, far more of the medical cost issue has to do with people living longer, having more expensive drastic medical interventions and ridiculously expensive new technology than it does with illegal immigrants.
Basically, the vast majority of them provide you with a net tax gain (and would much prefer to be here legally and be sure of paying their fair share), and otherwise don't harm you, yet you grumble for no particular reason. The definition of xenophobia.
Even if I accept that many illegal immigrants are violent criminals, wouldn't reducing the number of illegal crossings by nonviolent people help us police the border better?
Let me aks you this: what would happen to you if you didn't file a state or federal income tax form, or used a fraudulent social security number?
Illegals take as many exemptions as possible on their W-4, they aren't paying near as much withholding as you think. They know they can't file and get a refund so they take it on the front end.
Let's start with tax fraud and social security fraud and go from there.
QuoteConsider Arizona itself — whose illegal-immigrant population is believed to be second only to California's. The state's overall crime rate dropped 12% last year; between 2004 and 2008 it plunged 23%. In the metro area of its largest city, Phoenix, violent crime — encompassing murder, rape, assault and robbery — fell by a third during the past decade and by 17% last year. The border city of Nogales, an area rife with illegal immigration and drug trafficking, hasn't logged a single murder in the past two years.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2007474,00.html#ixzz0yV6t7vp4
Good stuff from July 30, 2010.
Also,
QuoteAccording to the nonpartisan Immigration Policy Institute, proponents of the bill "overlook two salient points: Crime rates have already been falling in Arizona for years despite the presence of unauthorized immigrants, and a century's worth of research has demonstrated that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native-born."
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-29/justice/arizona.immigration.crime_1_sen-russell-pearce-illegal-immigration-immigration-law?_s=PM:CRIME
This is funny, though: (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/29/border-states-dealing-illegal-immigrant-crime-data-suggests/) FOX news says, in an article entitled "Border States Deal With More Illegal Immigrant Crime Than Most, Data Suggest:"
QuoteArizona lawmakers say their new immigration enforcement law will help them fight an illegal immigrant crime wave that is sweeping the state, a claim that is backed by studies and statistics that suggest border states have a disproportionately high number of criminals who are illegal immigrants.
Of course, further down in the piece -- waaaaay far down in the piece -- the writer admits:
QuoteBut overall, it's hard to say that illegal immigrants have triggered a crime explosion in any of these states, though the recent killing of Arizona rancher Robert Krentz by a suspected illegal immigrant has served as a rallying cry for advocates of tougher enforcement.
FBI statistics show California and Texas had a violent crime average slightly higher than the national average 2008, while Arizona's average was slightly lower.
Jessica Vaughan, a co-author of the Center for Immigration Studies report and policy director at the think tank, said the bottom line is that connections between illegal immigrants and crime are hard to draw.
"We didn't find any evidence to support the idea that either immigrants are more prone to crime or less prone to crime than ... legally resident Americans," she said. "It's very tricky."
[snip]
But for those immigrants who are being caught and convicted, their immigration status itself is often the offense."
Quote from: Conan71 on September 03, 2010, 03:40:18 PM
Let's start with tax fraud and social security fraud and go from there.
Even if I accept your claim about their fraudulent exemption claims at face value, how are they committing social security fraud?
Regardless, wouldn't it be better to bring them into the system?
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 03:54:40 PM
Even if I accept your claim about their fraudulent exemption claims at face value, how are they committing social security fraud?
Regardless, wouldn't it be better to bring them into the system?
The exemption scam is done regularly, believe me.
Helloooo?
Fraudulent social security number, maybe?
Creating a
fraudulent SSN is a felony.
Forging a SSN card is a felony.
Entering false information (including a fraudulent SSN) on an I-9 or W-4 is a felony
Want me to continue?
Quote from: Conan71 on September 03, 2010, 04:02:55 PM
Creating a fraudulent SSN is a felony.
Forging a SSN card is a felony.
Entering false information (including a fraudulent SSN) on an I-9 or W-4 is a felony
What I meant was "how are they not paying their own way." Obviously it's legally fraud if they make up a social security number, but it's harmless if their withholding is still taken out and they don't accidentally hit someone else's number. The tax is being paid, regardless of what number they put on the form.
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 04:10:13 PM
What I meant was "how are they not paying their own way." Obviously it's legally fraud if they make up a social security number, but it's harmless if their withholding is still taken out and they don't accidentally hit someone else's number. The tax is being paid, regardless of what number they put on the form.
Do you think the IRS would tell you it's harmless if you or I tried to pull that? Don't drop the soap...
Quote from: Conan71 on September 03, 2010, 04:15:07 PM
Do you think the IRS would tell you it's harmless if you or I tried to pull that? Don't drop the soap...
I think the IRS would care exactly the same amount if you or I did that as they do when illegal immigrants do it. We're just easier to find. They have our address already. :P
I'm not arguing legality, I'm talking about the actual effects, which admittedly can be significant when the made up SSN happens to already exist. (and that makes it felony identity theft) At least as far as SS/MC, they're paying into a pot they'll never see a dime from.
There are better ways to reduce this problem with changes in procedure rather than using the stick of criminal penalties.
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 04:44:08 PM
I think the IRS would care exactly the same amount if you or I did that as they do when illegal immigrants do it. We're just easier to find. They have our address already. :P
I'm not arguing legality, I'm talking about the actual effects, which admittedly can be significant when the made up SSN happens to already exist. (and that makes it felony identity theft) At least as far as SS/MC, they're paying into a pot they'll never see a dime from.
There are better ways to reduce this problem with changes in procedure rather than using the stick of criminal penalties.
Why Nathan? They're here ILLEGALLY. That's the key word. IL-LE-GAL. As in 'it's criminal to be in the US without documentation that you are either a citizen, or a national, on on a valid work Visa.
I have nothing against immigrants. ILLEGAL ones, on the other hand.
Quote from: Hoss on September 03, 2010, 05:22:03 PM
Why Nathan? They're here ILLEGALLY. That's the key word. IL-LE-GAL. As in 'it's criminal to be in the US without documentation that you are either a citizen, or a national, on on a valid work Visa.
I have nothing against immigrants. ILLEGAL ones, on the other hand.
Part of living in a free society is revisiting our criminal code from time to time and determining if it is working and if not, what changes may be made to make it work better. Sometimes that involves increasing penalties. (most all of the time these days) Sometimes that involves completely changing the law or possibly repealing it entirely.
Illegal does not necessarily mean immoral.
This side rail of a discussion is not really central to my point anyway. My point is that we should allow more legal immigrants. In fact, I am of the opinion that we should allow most any Mexican or Canadian[1] without a history of violent crime or other serious felonies into the country. If there's no work for them here, they won't come[2]. If they can get in legally, they won't cross illegally. They will be within the system instead of without. We can more effectively tax them for the costs involved in their being here. We can more effectively keep track of them, as they will have bank accounts and other electronic records giving us an idea where they are in case we need to toss them out.
There will be many fewer attempting to cross illegally, as there is no benefit over crossing legally to people whom we would otherwise let in. This allows for faster response time when someone is detected in their attempt to cross illegally. It allows us to bring technology to bear on the problem in a more effective manner by reducing the number of humans needed to a level that is possible, budget-wise.
I want to keep the dangerous people out. I don't really care whether or not the rest live here or in Mexico or Canada or Ireland or anywhere else they like.
[1] possibly others, I just picked land borders because it was convenient
[2] which is why illegal border crossings are down right now
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 04:10:13 PM
but it's harmless if their withholding is still taken out and they don't accidentally hit someone else's number.
Happened to a friend at work (Hispanic, legal, born in the USA citizen). His wife's number got used by someone several states away. Lucky for my friend it was not near Tulsa or he would still be trying to prove he didn't owe more income tax to the IRS. Want to deal with the IRS?
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 03, 2010, 09:39:03 PM
Happened to a friend at work (Hispanic, legal, born in the USA citizen). His wife's number got used by someone several states away. Lucky for my friend it was not near Tulsa or he would still be trying to prove he didn't owe more income tax to the IRS. Want to deal with the IRS?
I specifically noted that this is a real problem. It's one of those problems we make for ourselves, though. People are going to come here no matter what we do if they think there is economic opportunity, so by making the path of least resistance involve something that can have bad effects on other people, we contribute to that result.
I just don't see the point of fighting against the tide when we could just build our sandcastle on higher ground.
Quote from: nathanm on September 04, 2010, 02:54:09 PM
I specifically noted that this is a real problem.
And I provided a specific example.
And all those "costs" to taxpayers are a drop in the bucket compared to the savings everyone here - EVERYONE - enjoys by having the cheapest and most abundant food in the world. This has been a very specific, enumerated goal of government policy since WWII. And it has worked.
And has always - as in always - been based on cheap labor allowed in from south of the border. Also, since WWII.
Step through the comparisons - being sure to compare US to Germany, England, etc rather than India. Just to keep a little validity...
http://www.walletpop.com/specials/food-price-comparison-around-the-world/
So, how much does food cost us as a percentage of disposable income? Less and less every year. So without the illegals to keep it down, you ALL would be much worse off in ways much greater than all the free education, medical, or whatever the social costs are today. Of course, that could change...if we got rid of all the illegals. Standard of living would go down pretty much across the board, except of course for the top 1% - they will always get what's due them.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/CPIFoodandExpenditures/Data/table7.htm
Quote from: nathanm on September 03, 2010, 04:44:08 PM
At least as far as SS/MC, they're paying into a pot they'll never see a dime from.
Wait until you go tto the ER and are told that can't take you because they are swamped. Illegals use the ER like a doctors office and then never pay the bill, we do. By the way, let me give your SSN to 20 illegals and see how long it takes to to explain your way out of it.
Quote from: dbacks fan on September 07, 2010, 10:53:38 AM
Wait until you go tto the ER and are told that can't take you because they are swamped. Illegals use the ER like a doctors office and then never pay the bill, we do.
So do the poor and the uninsured. It ain't just illegal immigrants.
Quote from: dbacks fan on September 07, 2010, 10:53:38 AM
Wait until you go tto the ER and are told that can't take you because they are swamped. Illegals use the ER like a doctors office and then never pay the bill, we do. By the way, let me give your SSN to 20 illegals and see how long it takes to to explain your way out of it.
I was going to write what wevus did, but he already wrote it, so I'll just add my +1 to that part.
And your thing about the SSN? How many times to I have to acknowledge that when they happen upon an existing SSN it causes serious problems for the owner of that particular number?
God forbid that you or anyone else see it is our own policies that drive that result, though. As in, we can change the way we handle illegal immigrants and make that a complete non-issue. That would probably be seen as criminal coddling, though. We can't have that. There is an old saying that invokes a nose, a face, and spite. I think it applies here.
Quote from: nathanm on September 07, 2010, 11:42:36 AM
I was going to write what wevus did, but he already wrote it, so I'll just add my +1 to that part.
And your thing about the SSN? How many times to I have to acknowledge that when they happen upon an existing SSN it causes serious problems for the owner of that particular number?
God forbid that you or anyone else see it is our own policies that drive that result, though. As in, we can change the way we handle illegal immigrants and make that a complete non-issue. That would probably be seen as criminal coddling, though. We can't have that. There is an old saying that invokes a nose, a face, and spite. I think it applies here.
We can de-criminalize anything we like, Nathan. There's usually a good reason something is deemed criminal in the first place. Our immigration laws exist, not out of spite, bigotry, or hatred but to protect existing U.S. citizens and the assets of the United States Government. It was designed to ensure orderly immigration so as not to overwhelm our social systems, over-burden our infrastructures, and peel jobs away from existing Americans as refugees show up willing to work for less wages. They also exist to protect the immigrants from exploitation by unscrupulous coyotes and being kept in virtual slavery by unscrupulous employers here in the states.
Quote from: we vs us on September 07, 2010, 11:24:39 AM
So do the poor and the uninsured. It ain't just illegal immigrants.
Nice deflection, it was simply refuting the asinine point that illegal immigrants never see a penny of their SSI and Medicare deductions paid as benefits.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 07, 2010, 03:07:38 PM
Nice deflection, it was simply refuting the asinine point that illegal immigrants never see a penny of their SSI and Medicare deductions paid as benefits.
No deflection at all, only meant to point out that it isn't some horrific aberration visited on us by illegal immigrants. We tolerate that scheme in all parts of our healthcare system, and for Americans and non-Americans alike, and so it isn't a particularly good argument against illegal immigration.
Quote from: we vs us on September 07, 2010, 03:32:34 PM
No deflection at all, only meant to point out that it isn't some horrific aberration visited on us by illegal immigrants. We tolerate that scheme in all parts of our healthcare system, and for Americans and non-Americans alike, and so it isn't a particularly good argument against illegal immigration.
No one even started to hint illegal immigrants were the sole problem of emergency room log-jams, but it is a significant contributing factor.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 07, 2010, 03:36:07 PM
No one even started to hint illegal immigrants were the sole problem of emergency room log-jams, but it is a significant contributing factor.
Sorry. That's how I read dback's comment.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 07, 2010, 03:06:48 PM
We can de-criminalize anything we like, Nathan. There's usually a good reason something is deemed criminal in the first place. Our immigration laws exist, not out of spite, bigotry, or hatred but to protect existing U.S. citizens and the assets of the United States Government. It was designed to ensure orderly immigration so as not to overwhelm our social systems, over-burden our infrastructures, and peel jobs away from existing Americans as refugees show up willing to work for less wages. They also exist to protect the immigrants from exploitation by unscrupulous coyotes and being kept in virtual slavery by unscrupulous employers here in the states.
It's perfectly clear that the immigration laws we have are not preventing any of those things that you say they exist to prevent. Why continue to keep useless laws on the books? I've never said we should just throw the doors open and let anybody and everybody in. I think we should let anybody in who has the means to support themselves, whether that be savings, a job offer, passive income, or whatever else. Their visa should be of a length commensurate with their capacity to support themselves and should require regular renewal until such time as they become eligible for a green card.
Continuing a failed system is just stupid.
Quote from: nathanm on September 07, 2010, 03:48:22 PM
It's perfectly clear that the immigration laws we have are not preventing any of those things that you say they exist to prevent. Why continue to keep useless laws on the books? I've never said we should just throw the doors open and let anybody and everybody in. I think we should let anybody in who has the means to support themselves, whether that be savings, a job offer, passive income, or whatever else. Their visa should be of a length commensurate with their capacity to support themselves and should require regular renewal until such time as they become eligible for a green card.
Continuing a failed system is just stupid.
The laws aren't the problem, it's the lack of enforcement, or should I say an apathetic tendency toward enforcement of the laws which is the real problem.
Quote from: we vs us on September 07, 2010, 03:40:46 PM
Sorry. That's how I read dback's comment.
I did not mean that they were the sole cause, but alot of the poor and uninsured get help paying the bills or at least try to. I when I refer to ER's I don't just mean the county hospital.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 07, 2010, 03:53:23 PM
The laws aren't the problem, it's the lack of enforcement, or should I say an apathetic tendency toward enforcement of the laws which is the real problem.
The laws aren't working, despite spending many billions of dollars each year precisely for the purpose of enforcing them.
Quote from: nathanm on September 07, 2010, 04:15:15 PM
The laws aren't working, despite spending many billions of dollars each year precisely for the purpose of enforcing them.
It's like that pesky stimulus you said we didn't spend enough on. Apparently we aren't spending enough.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 07, 2010, 04:26:02 PM
It's like that pesky stimulus you said we didn't spend enough on. Apparently we aren't spending enough.
That's not really equivalent at all. The stimulus did work, it just didn't do as much as we wished it would have, thanks to the concurrent slashing of state budgets. The numbers show it had an effect which is now trailing off as the stimulus dollars stop flowing. We've already been through the doubling-down on immigration. But hey, keep pursuing failed policies, it's just money.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 07, 2010, 03:53:23 PM
The laws aren't the problem, it's the lack of enforcement, or should I say an apathetic tendency toward enforcement of the laws which is the real problem.
Not to pick on you, but do you have any good cites for this? I hear this repeated over and over as conventional wisdom but have never seen it actually proven. Or even reported on in detail.
Gee, I dunno where I heard that guys. Something about a legislated wall which was never funded for starters? If you spent as much time reading real news as you spent reading the questionable legacy of Keynes, you'd know that. That's one example of the lip service the GOP has paid to the problem as they passed the border fence w/o funding SoCal and Az have serious unemployment problems and NM is inherently under-employed without fed jobs. Build the damn wall, that will stimulate the economy based on the Obama model in those states and do the rest of us a huge favor.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 07, 2010, 10:15:51 PM
Gee, I dunno where I heard that guys. Something about a legislated wall which was never funded for starters? If you spent as much time reading real news as you spent reading the questionable legacy of Keynes, you'd know that. That's one example of the lip service the GOP has paid to the problem as they passed the border fence w/o funding SoCal and Az have serious unemployment problems and NM is inherently under-employed without fed jobs. Build the damn wall, that will stimulate the economy based on the Obama model in those states and do the rest of us a huge favor.
Who pissed in your Wheaties?
I'm asking an honest and pretty simple question, and if the only answer is, "we were promised a wall and don't have one yet," then the idea that we're underfunding the policy is pretty thin. From my quick research I've found that roughly a quarter of the 2000 mile wall has been built to-date (barely 5 years after passage of the Secure Border Initiative), but much of the money allocated was sunk into SBInet, Boeing Corp's state of the art camera-sensor-drone border control solution -- which has so far turned out to be a flop. So much so that Janet Napolitano (at the urging of the GAO) has suspended funding to Boeing because their stuff has been so much of a dud. She has reconfigured some of the cash into other proven border control strategies, according to some of the reporting I've read.
So it's not funded because SBI's main solution has become a money pit. And Obama has already gone head and shoulders above previous administrations and sent Nat'l guard troops to the border.
Is there anything else I need to research or is that the nut right there?
Quote from: we vs us on September 07, 2010, 10:52:28 PM
Is there anything else I need to research or is that the nut right there?
Sure, research the potential effectiveness (not niceness) of machine guns every 100 yards or so. Shoot everything that moves. ;D
Oops... sorry to disappoint, Conan, but Fox is not real news. If you spent as much time reading/listening to real news as the questionable legacy of Murdoch, you'd know that. Even the most prominent front men (all of them) for Rupert declare emphatically that they are NOT news, they are ENTERTAINMENT!
BS alert!!
Quote;
There's usually a good reason something is deemed criminal in the first place.
How can anyone with ANY sense (or knowledge) of history make that comment?? Once you get beyond the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments as basis, there is as often as not NO good reason something is deemed criminal, and way too often not only is there no GOOD reason, but only bad, evil, self-serving greedy reasons! Do we need a list?? (How about the law that made it a crime to have sex in any other than the missionary position? Not necessarily evil, but no good reason.)
Or a significant portion of our drug laws?
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 08, 2010, 08:22:21 AM
Oops... sorry to disappoint, Conan, but Fox is not real news. If you spent as much time reading/listening to real news as the questionable legacy of Murdoch, you'd know that. Even the most prominent front men (all of them) for Rupert declare emphatically that they are NOT news, they are ENTERTAINMENT!
BS alert!!
Quote;
There's usually a good reason something is deemed criminal in the first place.
How can anyone with ANY sense (or knowledge) of history make that comment?? Once you get beyond the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments as basis, there is as often as not NO good reason something is deemed criminal, and way too often not only is there no GOOD reason, but only bad, evil, self-serving greedy reasons! Do we need a list?? (How about the law that made it a crime to have sex in any other than the missionary position? Not necessarily evil, but no good reason.)
Or a significant portion of our drug laws?
Are you really a retard or do you just play one here? I couldn't tell you what's playing on Faux Snooze, I don't watch it.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 08, 2010, 08:22:21 AM
Oops... sorry to disappoint, Conan, but Fox is not real news. If you spent as much time reading/listening to real news as the questionable legacy of Murdoch, you'd know that. Even the most prominent front men (all of them) for Rupert declare emphatically that they are NOT news, they are ENTERTAINMENT!
I hope you aren't proposing that I get my real news from the MSM.
Fox News does claim some shows as news but many are self described as commentary and opinion.
Naw....no name calling from the far right on this place.
And no reply to the questions/comments.
Burned any Koran's lately??
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 08, 2010, 12:33:22 PM
Naw....no name calling from the far right on this place.
And no reply to the questions/comments.
Burned any Koran's lately??
Far right my donkey, I'm about as moderate as they come.
Your comments make no sense, so I figure it's easier to attack the messenger ;)
Like I said...
There is a new move afoot by the Arizona Legislature to change the 14th Amendment so that the status of the parents of a child born in the US is checked to see if the parents are illegal or not. This is challenging a Supreme Court desicion in 1898 on how citizenship is determined by birth. The movement is to challenge the 14th on it's legality, and the intent of the amendment's legality. This opens a Pandoras box on this issue. Even if it passes and it is not retroactive, it changes so much.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/09/12/20100912th-amendment-birthright-citizenship-challenge.html (http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/09/12/20100912th-amendment-birthright-citizenship-challenge.html)
The issue of changing the 14th Amendment came up in the Florida senatorial debate recently. Charlie Christ gets his @ss handed to him by Rubio. The pain begins at 3:15
http://univision23.univision.com/destino2010/senatorial-debate/video/2010-09-17/would-you-support-changing-the
BTW, Meek sounded pretty good on the issue.