Oklahomans don't like President Barack Obama.
A lot.
Obama's Oklahoma Poll approval rating fell to 27 percent in July, the lowest for any elected official in the 17-year history of the survey.
The previous low for an elected official was former Gov. David Walters' 33 percent in both 1993 and 1994. The previous low for a president was Obama's 36 percent in January of this year. Before that, it was President Bill Clinton's 37 percent at the end of 1994.
Reasons for the state's discontent with the current chief executive range from the state of the economy to the belief that he's planning to turn the country over to "his Muslim brothers."
The relative few who support Obama give him credit for tackling health care reform and doing the best possible job under difficult circumstances.
"I don't know if it's totally inexperience," said poll respondent Etta Martin of Glenpool. "It could be ignorance. But he has said and done so many things, I don't believe he's a loyal American. Unless (Obama) changes his attitude or he is voted out of office, we are in for a very bad time in this country."
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20100801_16_A10_Oklaho658879
Senator Tom Coburn and Gov. Brad Henry are the two most popular politicians in the state right now.
I don't think they were talking about the Tulsa Mayor when the poll said "local mayor". I'm sure he dropped the 56% approval by 20 points.
...and the rest of the country has the impression that Oklahoma is a benighted little backwater. Imagine that.
Quote from: unreliablesource on August 05, 2010, 06:58:06 PM
he's planning to turn the country over to "his Muslim brothers."
That's just pathetic and paranoid, right there. Did the pollster call jamesrage?
Oklahoma has an open door policy. You are welcome to leave at any time.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 06, 2010, 08:07:04 AM
Oklahoma has an open door policy. You are welcome to leave at any time.
Awesome..Outta the park.....He needs to find a cane with some sort of self-gratification feature.....
I love it in here how if your opinion doesn't meet with that of the majority RWB, you're told that you're free to leave the state.
::)
Quote from: Hoss on August 06, 2010, 09:01:33 AM
I love it in here how if your opinion doesn't meet with that of the majority RWB, you're told that you're free to leave the state.
::)
Nah. . . we just offer that to people who say how much they hate Oklahoma or Tulsa. We've had our share of them on this forum. It's ok if you propose improvement, but when you frequently post about how bad this state or city is, it's good to know that you have the freedom to move to California or perhaps Washington State. There are some great housing deals there now! ::)
Quote from: Gaspar on August 06, 2010, 09:54:33 AM
Nah. . . we just offer that to people who say how much they hate Oklahoma or Tulsa. We've had our share of them on this forum. It's ok if you propose improvement, but when you frequently post about how bad this state or city is, it's good to know that you have the freedom to move to California or perhaps Washington State. There are some great housing deals there now! ::)
Same offer nationally?
Quote from: Hoss on August 06, 2010, 09:01:33 AM
I love it in here how if your opinion doesn't meet with that of the majority RWB, you're told that you're free to leave the state.
Just more radicals posing as conservatives using radical rhetoric.
Quote from: nathanm on August 06, 2010, 10:22:35 AM
Just more radicals posing as conservatives using radical rhetoric.
That's pretty cool.
I like the way that fiscal responsibility, economic freedom, and limited government have now become "radical" ideas.
Conversely, it's interesting how massive spending, extending the power and size of government, and increased social(ist) programs is not "radical".
Quote from: Gaspar on August 06, 2010, 11:12:10 AM
That's pretty cool.
I like the way that fiscal responsibility, economic freedom, and limited government have now become "radical" ideas.
Conversely, it's interesting how massive spending, extending the power and size of government, and increased social(ist) programs is not "radical".
Nice framing. You don't think turning the US into a warmongering theocracy, as the tea partiers seem to want is radical? Seems like you were the one complaining about fiscal responsibility in another thread. And yes, deconstructing the state is in fact a radical idea. Anarchists are widely considered to fit that label.
Quote from: nathanm on August 06, 2010, 11:41:08 AM
Nice framing. You don't think turning the US into a warmongering theocracy, as the tea partiers seem to want is radical?
Wow, I still can't find that anywhere in their platform statement, or campaign messages. Must be a secret agenda. Keep us posted on their real plans Nate.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 06, 2010, 12:16:45 PM
Wow, I still can't find that anywhere in their platform statement, or campaign messages. Must be a secret agenda. Keep us posted on their real plans Nate.
Well, opposing gay marriage on religious grounds and the building of mosques is a great start to the theocracy bit. You might read a bit about the messages Glenn Beck is pushing to his tea party faithful.
Moreover, as I mentioned before, their (and your) position that the state should be deconstructed is very radical.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 06, 2010, 08:07:04 AM
Oklahoma has an open door policy. You are welcome to leave at any time.
You couldn't be more right.
Quote from: nathanm on August 06, 2010, 12:33:50 PM
Well, opposing gay marriage on religious grounds and the building of mosques is a great start to the theocracy bit. You might read a bit about the messages Glenn Beck is pushing to his tea party faithful.
Moreover, as I mentioned before, their (and your) position that the state should be deconstructed is very radical.
Speaking of mosques. . .
"The fact that Islam can build a mosque at Ground Zero tells you everything you need to know about this country. The fact that Islam will build a mosque at Ground Zero tells you everything you need to know about Islam." - Dennis Miller
It's an interesting subject. I believe any American should be free to build whatever he/she wants on their property. I believe that the ground zero mosque is an excellent example of the freedom that we share.
On the other hand the philosophy behind it is troublesome, and the group behind it is even more troublesome. In Islam it is tradition to build a Mosque at the site of every great victory. Typically you build the Mosque on or near the ruins of your enemy's palace or religious site. There are hundreds of great examples of beautiful mosques all over the world built on or near the ruins of conquered peoples. The Moors were very prolific in erecting grand mosques as a symbol of their victories. The greatest of these is the Mezquita in Cordoba Spain. It is built on the ruins of the church of St. Vincent when the Moors sacked Spain. The Mezquita or the Cordoba as some call it is used as an example of Islam's victory over the Kafir (infidel).
I find it odd and a bit disturbing that the group building the ground zero Mosque calls themselves the Cordoba institute. It makes me wonder about the motive behind this monument.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 06, 2010, 04:58:27 PM
I find it odd and a bit disturbing that the group building the ground zero Mosque calls themselves the Cordoba institute. It makes me wonder about the motive behind this monument.
Same as any church. To get more followers which begets more money and power. Any organized religion is set up that way.
The "mosque" isn't a mosque, it's a cultural center with a prayer room, and it's not "at" ground zero. It's not even visible from there at ground level.
Beyond that, the furor is just another example of some far right wingers seeming to be unable to make the connection that the same Constitution that guarantees them the right to bear arms also guarantees other people rights. Like the right to worship however they see fit, so long as they don't violate the criminal codes.
Quote from: nathanm on August 06, 2010, 05:16:53 PM
The "mosque" isn't a mosque, it's a cultural center with a prayer room, and it's not "at" ground zero. It's not even visible from there at ground level.
Well that makes me ask, what would have to changeto make it a mosque?
Quote from: Gaspar on August 06, 2010, 04:58:27 PM
On the other hand the philosophy behind it is troublesome, and the group behind it is even more troublesome. In Islam it is tradition to build a Mosque at the site of every great victory. Typically you build the Mosque on or near the ruins of your enemy's palace or religious site. There are hundreds of great examples of beautiful mosques all over the world built on or near the ruins of conquered peoples. The Moors were very prolific in erecting grand mosques as a symbol of their victories. The greatest of these is the Mezquita in Cordoba Spain. It is built on the ruins of the church of St. Vincent when the Moors sacked Spain. The Mezquita or the Cordoba as some call it is used as an example of Islam's victory over the Kafir (infidel).
Even if Cordoba was a mosque (which it isn't), you're not accounting for the more than 90 mosques in the New York City area.
Do you really think all of those mosques in the Big Apple were built on a battle site or the ruins of a conquered church?
Instead of wildly paranoid theories, maybe it'd be better and saner to presume that these mosques were built simply because the locals wanted them.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 06, 2010, 08:07:04 AM
Oklahoma has an open door policy. You are welcome to leave at any time.
Maybe that's why most of my friends in their mid 20's have left. When I read articles like this I sometimes wonder why I came back. There are a lot of crazy people in this state. If that nut Fallin gets elected as governor I may start thinking about moving back to Colorado.
Quote from: SXSW on August 07, 2010, 09:16:07 AM
Maybe that's why most of my friends in their mid 20's have left. When I read articles like this I sometimes wonder why I came back. There are a lot of crazy people in this state. If that nut Fallin gets elected as governor I may start thinking about moving back to Colorado.
Exactly.
I will always love my home state, and I have friends and family there so I will always go back- to visit. Unfortunately I have given up the possibility of ever moving back to Oklahoma. The religious, conservative fanatics have hijacked the state, and as much as small groups of people, like some on this forum and certain friends of mine want things to progress and change for the better, it seems like the majority of the state, and many on this forum, are hell bent on keeping Oklahoma the intolerant, non-diverse buckle of the bible belt.
Tulsa, through creative and opportunistic individuals has transformed into a beautiful city- IMO one of the prettiest in the country. Unfortunately it has also transformed into a somewhat unwelcoming place for many due to the oppressive political/religious climate, which in Oklahoma are one & the same.
It is really a shame, since it is a beautiful place with many wonderful, friendly people. Oh well. It's Oklahoma's loss, I'm afraid.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on August 07, 2010, 12:21:18 PM
Exactly.
I will always love my home state, and I have friends and family there so I will always go back- to visit. Unfortunately I have given up the possibility of ever moving back to Oklahoma. The religious, conservative fanatics have hijacked the state, and as much as small groups of people, like some on this forum and certain friends of mine want things to progress and change for the better, it seems like the majority of the state, and many on this forum, are hell bent on keeping Oklahoma the intolerant, non-diverse buckle of the bible belt.
Tulsa, through creative and opportunistic individuals has transformed into a beautiful city- IMO one of the prettiest in the country. Unfortunately it has also transformed into a somewhat unwelcoming place for many due to the oppressive political/religious climate, which in Oklahoma are one & the same.
It is really a shame, since it is a beautiful place with many wonderful, friendly people. Oh well. It's Oklahoma's loss, I'm afraid.
Unfortunatly, it's the attitude of "I can't live with what is wrong so I'll leave" that makes it worst. For every step that you take back, the opposition will step forward one.
Quote from: custosnox on August 07, 2010, 12:51:17 PM
Unfortunatly, it's the attitude of "I can't live with what is wrong so I'll leave" that makes it worst. For every step that you take back, the opposition will step forward one.
And one of the main reasons I returned. I love Tulsa and want to see it move forward but between the sad state of affairs at City Hall and the far-right state government I can see how many would give up. I just a bought a house so I'm not going anywhere right away but I don't like the direction we're heading.
Oklahoma has had a lot of famous, insightful, creative achievers take advantage of that open door policy and they have come from both sides of the political spectrum. Once those people leave, they seldom come back. This forum and this thread are good examples of why. It is hard to believe that in modern times I am seeing the resurgence of the "love it or leave it" philosophy. Probably the worst remark from an educated person on this site that I have ever read. Oklahoma has nice people, nice countryside, low wages, lots of churches, low investment in education, tolerable weather, intolerable politics. An oil state whose large oil companies could not tolerate staying here.
Custo, there is no progress being made. Why enlightened people stay? Its like a perfectly good, cosmetically pretty, 15 year old car whose engine develops a chattering noise. You know the best answer is to cut your losses, scrap the car and buy a newer one as it is likely only the beginning of more repairs. Newer cars have better aesthetics, better systems and are in general better built. But you like the car. The alternative is to try to rebuild the car piece by piece, avoid new car payments and extend its value. That's what those of us who have stayed here tried to do. Once you buy a house and start a family, you're stuck here for a couple decades.
Imagine Oklahoma as a fine example of a '57 Plymouth Belvedere, rusting in a concrete crypt, brought up after a half century. Its all there, but its going to cost a fortune to rebuild, its hopelessly unsafe at any speed and its systems, though workable, are outdated. Tulsa is the seized up gas guzzling motor. We're a museum state. Lookout Mississippi, we're gaining on you!
Quote from: waterboy on August 07, 2010, 01:30:15 PM
Oklahoma has had a lot of famous, insightful, creative achievers take advantage of that open door policy and they have come from both sides of the political spectrum. Once those people leave, they seldom come back. This forum and this thread are good examples of why. It is hard to believe that in modern times I am seeing the resurgence of the "love it or leave it" philosophy. Probably the worst remark from an educated person on this site that I have ever read. Oklahoma has nice people, nice countryside, low wages, lots of churches, low investment in education, tolerable weather, intolerable politics. An oil state whose large oil companies could not tolerate staying here.
Custo, there is no progress being made. Why enlightened people stay? Its like a perfectly good, cosmetically pretty, 15 year old car whose engine develops a chattering noise. You know the best answer is to cut your losses, scrap the car and buy a newer one as it is likely only the beginning of more repairs. Newer cars have better aesthetics, better systems and are in general better built. But you like the car. The alternative is to try to rebuild the car piece by piece, avoid new car payments and extend its value. That's what those of us who have stayed here tried to do. Once you buy a house and start a family, you're stuck here for a couple decades.
Imagine Oklahoma as a fine example of a '57 Plymouth Belvedere, rusting in a concrete crypt, brought up after a half century. Its all there, but its going to cost a fortune to rebuild, its hopelessly unsafe at any speed and its systems, though workable, are outdated. Tulsa is the seized up gas guzzling motor. We're a museum state. Lookout Mississippi, we're gaining on you!
Not exactly an apt comparison since when a car reaches a sad enough state, we send it to the scrap yard and buy a new one. While we can move to a new city, the old city still remains. Beyond this, a city represents the livelihoods of millions, past and present. It is the heart of all that live there, and all that have lived there. The spirit of the past resides in the history of it, and mingles in the streets with the best and worst of the present. It endures, in one form or another, from generation to generation. Regardless of the health of the city, it continues to breath life. It just comes down to a matter of if that life is a tortured, labored breath of the sick, or a lively, healthy life.
My point was, if everyone keeps backing down, it just gets worst, unless someone takes a stand. Makes me think of Clint Eastwood in Gran Tarino.
Quote from: custosnox on August 07, 2010, 01:58:02 PM
Not exactly an apt comparison since when a car reaches a sad enough state, we send it to the scrap yard and buy a new one. While we can move to a new city, the old city still remains. Beyond this, a city represents the livelihoods of millions, past and present. It is the heart of all that live there, and all that have lived there. The spirit of the past resides in the history of it, and mingles in the streets with the best and worst of the present. It endures, in one form or another, from generation to generation. Regardless of the health of the city, it continues to breath life. It just comes down to a matter of if that life is a tortured, labored breath of the sick, or a lively, healthy life.
My point was, if everyone keeps backing down, it just gets worst, unless someone takes a stand. Makes me think of Clint Eastwood in Gran Tarino.
I completely agree, and I am very thankful for the many wonderful, creative and insightful people I know in Tulsa and in Oklahoma. I don't believe those people should back down, and none of them are. As far as myself, I didn't have a choice in moving away as my dad was transferred when I was starting high school. But as an adult, I do have a choice in where I choose to live, and unfortunately, like so many other people now, I choose to not live in Tulsa for the reasons already stated.
My point was, Tulsa can keep trying to better itself through civic improvements, better education, urban planning etc. as it should, but until something changes in the political & social climate, it will not be able to attract a more diverse, creative 'working class' it so desperately needs to stay competitive. You can only ride on a century-old reputation for so long....
If my family had not left Tulsa I would probably still be living there, and it will always have a place in my heart. However, too much time has past, and my eyes have been opened to the reality of the situation. But I don't believe anyone should move away simply because of the problems. Stand up and fight, all the way.
The issue going forward, obviously, is how to attract new people.
You don't attract people by inviting them to leave if they disagree with the status quo. I agree with both of you otherwise, though my comparison works for me. We have held onto this old car till it has now become an antique. Not a classic, not a collectable, just an antique. Just like that old Studebaker Lark station wagon that is a fond memory for me but would be miserable to drive on today's streets, many who left have fond memories of Oklahoma, but its a nightmare when they consider actually living here.
There is no fight left in Tulsa, if there ever was, and there has never been any fight in the rest of the state in my lifetime. Unless you consider fighting non existent threats like gay marriage, loss of gun rights, immigration, liberal media, public schools, and the ever present secular humanism.
Anyway, exactly how do you fight such a strong religious, social, business atmosphere that is so pervasive that they can't even tolerate the few moderate Democrats left? The new state legislature is rumored to be anticipating re-districting in Tulsa to split up the few strongly Democratic neighborhood strongholds left within the city. Who will they have to blame then?
Quote from: waterboy on August 07, 2010, 02:57:46 PM
Anyway, exactly how do you fight such a strong religious, social, business atmosphere that is so pervasive that they can't even tolerate the few moderate Democrats left? The new state legislature is rumored to be anticipating re-districting in Tulsa to split up the few strongly Democratic neighborhood strongholds left within the city. Who will they have to blame then?
It is fought one battle at a time, and with the constitution in hand. The far right likes to beat everyone over the head with it, but like to leave out the rest of it. As far as the redrawing of the district lines, that coudl turn into a legal fight that they may not win.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on August 07, 2010, 02:39:34 PM
The issue going forward, obviously, is how to attract new people.
I agree. If the city can't keep some of its brightest natives how can it expect to attract more people from other areas? I do think those that are new to Tulsa see it in a different light than those that have grown up here such as myself. Tulsa is a great city with fantastic neighborhoods, lots of trees and hills, and more wealth than most cities our size thanks to the oil & gas industry and a strong entreprenurial spirit. The city is growing, albeit slowly, and the metro is growing at a steady rate so it's not like we're some Rust Belt town that continues to lose population. Oklahoma remains attractive to immigrants but for how long with a far-right legislature and potentially governor seemingly against them?
I had wanted to get back to Tulsa for several years and started posted on this forum as an ex-Tulsan living somewhere else but visiting as often as possible. This year is the first time I have actually lived in Tulsa for longer than a couple months since 2003 and for me it has been a mixed bag. I like the direction downtown and the midtown neighborhood districts are going, and enjoy living near Cherry Street and fixing up an old house there. Another part of me misses living in a bigger city. I may not be here forever but while I'm here I want to get involved and do what I can to support those making Tulsa a better place. Even with the crazy politicians it's still a good place to live and if I decide to move back to Denver in a couple years I know I'll miss being here.
Quote from: SXSW on August 07, 2010, 03:17:56 PM
I agree. If the city can't keep some of its brightest natives how can it expect to attract more people from other areas? I do think those that are new to Tulsa see it in a different light than those that have grown up here such as myself. Tulsa is a great city with fantastic neighborhoods, lots of trees and hills, and more wealth than most cities our size thanks to the oil & gas industry and a strong entreprenurial spirit. The city is growing, albeit slowly, and the metro is growing at a steady rate so it's not like we're some Rust Belt town that continues to lose population. Oklahoma remains attractive to immigrants but for how long with a far-right legislature and potentially governor seemingly against them?
I had wanted to get back to Tulsa for several years and started posted on this forum as an ex-Tulsan living somewhere else but visiting as often as possible. This year is the first time I have actually lived in Tulsa for longer than a couple months since 2003 and for me it has been a mixed bag. I like the direction downtown and the midtown neighborhood districts are going, and enjoy living near Cherry Street and fixing up an old house there. Another part of me misses living in a bigger city. I may not be here forever but while I'm here I want to get involved and do what I can to support those making Tulsa a better place. Even with the crazy politicians it's still a good place to live and if I decide to move back to Denver in a couple years I know I'll miss being here.
Tulsa needs a LOT more people like you. Hopefully it will get there.
Quote from: SXSW on August 07, 2010, 03:17:56 PM
I agree. If the city can't keep some of its brightest natives how can it expect to attract more people from other areas?
And by the "brightest", I assume you mean those that call a republican gubernatorial candidate a "nut". Seriously, this whole mess began when Ed decided to paint Oklahoma as a "benighted little backwater" in the eyes of others in this country. That's one heck of a way to sell our state and the quality of its citizens. Gas's response was perfectly appropriate given that sh!tty accusation presumably from a fellow Oklahoma "countryman" (is that how we are characterized one another wevsus?). Where's the condemnation from others on that statement about us Oklahomans?
Quote from: guido911 on August 07, 2010, 04:41:50 PM
Where's the condemnation from others on that statement about us Oklahomans?
Ed was responding to the idiocy pointed out in the TW article and noted that is how people from other areas see us all. There is nothing to condemn and he has nothing to apologize for.
Edited to add: We have things going for us. A reasonably good economy. Stable housing prices. Low cost of living. The state's politics is not one of those things. There are too many radical right wingers and fundamentalist "Christians" running things.
Quote from: guido911 on August 07, 2010, 04:41:50 PM
And by the "brightest", I assume you mean those that call a republican gubernatorial candidate a "nut". Seriously, this whole mess began when Ed decided to paint Oklahoma as a "benighted little backwater" in the eyes of others in this country. That's one heck of a way to sell our state and the quality of its citizens. Gas's response was perfectly appropriate given that sh!tty accusation presumably from a fellow Oklahoma "countryman" (is that how we are characterized one another wevsus?). Where's the condemnation from others on that statement about us Oklahomans?
Ed didn't paint Oklahoma as a "benighted little backwater", the citizens of Oklahoma do that to themselves by continually voting in people that many in the rest of the country (even conservatives) find questionable at best. Also, it seems every time Oklahoma is in the national spotlight, it is for some outlandish statement made by aforementioned politicians, or the passage of a ridiculous abortion law, or some other religious-fueled controversy, i.e. Tulsa Zoo. Not exactly a rosy picture for outsiders looking in.
I always find myself defending Oklahoma from those who have never been there (or Texans) who do indeed try to claim that Oklahoma is all backwater hicks, radical conservatives and religious fanatics, because I know not all of Oklahoma is like that. But I will say it's getting harder and harder to defend lately.
The "benighted little backwater" is one end of the spectrum, as it's descriptive of the xenophobic, insular attitude someone from outside the state can encounter. We've seen it in this thread with the don't-let-the-door-hit-you-in-the-butt-on-your-way-out comments. I ran into that one in my first months here.
But there's the other end of the spectrum too, and I couldn't say it more eloquently than this. I sometimes consider that Oklahoma is in a kind of time-warp. We're attached to the modern world, but not really part of it.
Here's a piece from Fodor's Road Guide USA:
"Few visitors to Oklahoma leave without remarking on the friendliness of the people, who blend Southern hospitality with the openness found in the West. Many an out-of-state visitor driving in the western plains has been mystified by the number of total strangers who wave hello. "Oklahomans are what other people think Americans are like," Will Rogers said about his native state in the 1920s. "Oklahoma is the heart, it's the vital organ of our national existence.""
My father-in-law put it more succinctly. He said that the people here are the nicest you'll ever meet - until they get behind the wheel of a car. Then again, he never drove in Atlanta or New York.
It's possible that those xenophobes (for lack of a better term) are on the way out. Despite the inadequacies of our education systems, our children are gaining a wider world view through the internet and its communication possibilities. Rather than having a horizon that extends to the county line, theirs is practically unlimited. I'd like to think that Will Rogers was being prophetic and he was describing our children.
Quote from: Ed W on August 07, 2010, 06:04:18 PM
The "benighted little backwater" is one end of the spectrum..
It would have been nice if you originally posted that instead of painting the entire state with that broad brush. And Azbad, I personally do not want you having anything to do with defending this state.
Quote from: guido911 on August 07, 2010, 08:11:38 PM
And Azbad, I personally do not want you having anything to do with defending this state.
Personally speaking, you don't have to worry about it. I only defend the decent people of the state.
Quote from: guido911 on August 07, 2010, 08:11:38 PM
It would have been nice if you originally posted that instead of painting the entire state with that broad brush.
I think it's well-earned, Tony, because as the origin of this thread pointed out, Oklahoma does not like President Obama. If I recall correctly, this state went even more to the right in the last presidential election than it did previously. While the rest of the country moved toward the center, this state clearly did not. That would seem to indicate that either everyone else is out of step with Oklahoma, or that the people of Oklahoma prefer to be contrarians. There's maybe 3 million people in this state, and that makes it minuscule in national politics.
While anecdotes are not data, there's a story that may be illustrative of the perception of Oklahoma on the larger stage. I was involved in a discussion of bicycling advocacy with various people from across the country. One of them, an influential member of a very large Midwestern coalition, was extremely condescending once he learned I was in Oklahoma. He didn't like our senators or our politics (neither do I, but that's beside the point) and summarily dismissed anything I had to say because in his opinion, all Oklahomans are just like Senators Coburn and Inhofe. Now, I'll be the last to defend those two, but the guy was so rude I promised that if I ever met him in person, he'd be the less-than-joyful recipient of a brand new broken nose. Sadly, he's not alone in thinking that everyone here in Oklahoma is some kind of right wing nut case.
Quote from: Ed W on August 07, 2010, 09:25:44 PM
While anecdotes are not data, there's a story that may be illustrative of the perception of Oklahoma on the larger stage. I was involved in a discussion of bicycling advocacy with various people from across the country. One of them, an influential member of a very large Midwestern coalition, was extremely condescending once he learned I was in Oklahoma. He didn't like our senators or our politics (neither do I, but that's beside the point) and summarily dismissed anything I had to say because in his opinion, all Oklahomans are just like Senators Coburn and Inhofe. Now, I'll be the last to defend those two, but the guy was so rude I promised that if I ever met him in person, he'd be the less-than-joyful recipient of a brand new broken nose. Sadly, he's not alone in thinking that everyone here in Oklahoma is some kind of right wing nut case.
I would have no respect for someone like that. There are all types of people in every state. There may be more conservatives in Oklahoma (but oddly there are more registered Democrats than Republicans) but there are still plenty of moderates and liberals mainly in Tulsa, OKC, and Norman. I may be liberal myself but I respect conservatives that practice fiscal responsibility and smaller government. What I don't like are those far-right conservatives that we have plenty of (and so do most Southern states for that matter from Texas to South Carolina) that insist on blaming someone else for everything that is wrong without providing new solutions.
I see Mary Fallin as one of those types, someone that will use buzz words like "socialism" and "ObamaCare" to further her conservative agenda and appeal to the many far-right voters in the rural and suburban areas of this state. I think many will see past that though and hopefully elect Jari Askins instead.
My wife and I were on a car trip today, you know when you are in close confines and have to communicate. She asked me who I was going to support for governor. My wife is a conservative democrat and I'm a moderate republican, which in our state is a wash.
I told her I'm officially undecided, but I'm leaning towards Jari Askins.
I told her I like the idea of having a Democratic Governor to off set the crazy Republicans running the the Oklahoma House and Senate.
Plus I think Jari Askins is smarter and a harder worker that Mary Fallin.
I must disclose, I have contributed money to Mary Fallin in the past when she was running for Lt. Governor, so I'm no virgin when it come political matters.
Quote from: azbadpuppy on August 07, 2010, 08:18:06 PM
Personally speaking, you don't have to worry about it. I only defend the decent people of the state.
Snap!
Quote from: unreliablesource on August 07, 2010, 10:20:21 PM
My wife and I were on a car trip today, you know when you are in close confines and have to communicate. She asked me who I was going to support for governor. My wife is a conservative democrat and I'm a moderate republican, which in our state is a wash.
I told her I'm officially undecided, but I'm leaning towards Jari Askins.
I told her I like the idea of having a Democratic Governor to off set the crazy Republicans running the the Oklahoma House and Senate.
Plus I think Jari Askins is smarter and a harder worker that Mary Fallin.
I must disclose, I have contributed money to Mary Fallin in the past when she was running for Lt. Governor, so I'm no virgin when it come political matters.
Plus, doesn't Mary have that spectre of 'the affair' tied to her? When did that happen, wasn't it back in the late nineties?
SXSW, I applaud your attitude and I hope you can transfer it to the rest of us. At the very least to your age group. The city will only benefit from passionate, diverse opinion if we can only listen to each other instead of lecturing each other. My frustration is compounded by seeing unproductive behaviors repeated decade after decade and presented as though they are brand new thinking.
I do love my city (and my state), and my expectations for it have always been high. That is why I am so irritated with our current problems that seem so petty and political in nature. People like Kaiser and Zarrow give me hope.
Quote from: SXSW on August 07, 2010, 09:56:00 PM
I see Mary Fallin as one of those types, someone that will use buzz words like "socialism" and "ObamaCare" to further her conservative agenda and appeal to the many far-right voters in the rural and suburban areas of this state. I think many will see past that though and hopefully elect Jari Askins instead.
Yeah, if someone says "ObamaCare" in person, I immediately know they're a tool. If they then go on about "socialism," I know they're a fool. All these dog whistles make it easy to identify the folks who don't feel like engaging their brains.
Quote from: nathanm on August 06, 2010, 05:16:53 PM
Beyond that, the furor is just another example of some far right wingers seeming to be unable to make the connection that the same Constitution that guarantees them the right to bear arms also guarantees other people rights.
And along those lines, there is this:
http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696
Quote from: nathanm on August 06, 2010, 12:33:50 PM
Well, opposing gay marriage on religious grounds and the building of mosques is a great start to the theocracy bit. You might read a bit about the messages Glenn Beck is pushing to his tea party faithful.
Moreover, as I mentioned before, their (and your) position that the state should be deconstructed is very radical.
But you don't address the issue. You stated "You don't think turning the US into a warmongering theocracy" Yet dance around it when confronted.
Remember Ya'll, this Sunday is bring your guns to church day.
Quote from: nathanm on August 08, 2010, 01:48:23 PM
Yeah, if someone says "ObamaCare" in person, I immediately know they're a tool. If they then go on about "socialism," I know they're a fool. All these dog whistles make it easy to identify the folks who don't feel like engaging their brains.
Except that "Obamacare" is frequently used in the MSM, Google it and articles from Time, Bloomberg, CBS, and a variety of local network affiliates and newspapers.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2010, 12:34:28 PM
Remember Ya'll, this Sunday is bring your guns to church day.
I can't carry my guns and my rattlesnake at the same time.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 10, 2010, 01:47:35 PM
Except that "Obamacare" is frequently used in the MSM, Google it and articles from Time, Bloomberg, CBS, and a variety of local network affiliates and newspapers.
It's not ObamaCare?
Katy Couric calls it ObamaCare, so does left wing news god John Stewart.
So does The Huffington Post and Daily Kos.
The "dog whistles" are rather loud.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 10, 2010, 01:47:35 PM
Except that "Obamacare" is frequently used in the MSM, Google it and articles from Time, Bloomberg, CBS, and a variety of local network affiliates and newspapers.
Yeah, and that lets me know that the author is probably not someone I should take seriously.
Quote from: nathanm on August 10, 2010, 03:43:54 PM
Yeah, and that lets me know that the author is probably not someone I should take seriously.
You're right. You should avoid taking anyone seriously who uses the term.
LOL! Guess who else has referred to it as Obamacare?
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2010, 03:56:58 PM
You're right. You should avoid taking anyone seriously who uses the term.
LOL! Guess who else has referred to it as Obamacare?
Hitler, and I don't take him seriously either. :o
Quote from: nathanm on August 10, 2010, 04:20:08 PM
Hitler, and I don't take him seriously either. :o
Godwin!
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2010, 04:57:34 PM
Godwin!
And here I thought TFN had a chance of violating that law.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 10, 2010, 02:02:00 PM
I can't carry my guns and my rattlesnake at the same time.
Do you have a concealed snake license?
Quote from: Conan71 on August 10, 2010, 10:37:40 PM
Do you have a concealed snake license?
I just carry mine around the house and on Friday and Saturday nights......
Quote from: Breadburner on August 11, 2010, 08:06:07 AM
I just carry mine around the house and on Friday and Saturday nights......
Mine is too large to conceal.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 11, 2010, 08:12:13 AM
Mine is too large to conceal.
I have to wear long pants too.
In other news: Oklahomans don't mind if the illegal immigrants get to stay.
More than three-quarters of the 755 Oklahomans surveyed by SoonerPoll.com July 16-21 said they favor allowing illegal immigrants to remain if they admit they broke the law, pay fines and back taxes, learn English and begin the process of obtaining legal residency.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20100808_16_A1_Inmate724589
Quote from: nathanm on August 11, 2010, 02:10:06 PM
In other news: Oklahomans don't mind if the illegal immigrants get to stay.
More than three-quarters of the 755 Oklahomans surveyed by SoonerPoll.com July 16-21 said they favor allowing illegal immigrants to remain if they admit they broke the law, pay fines and back taxes, learn English and begin the process of obtaining legal residency.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20100808_16_A1_Inmate724589
I think this would hold true of almost anyone. If those conditions were met, and that was the road to citizenship, than there is no problem. I doubt that will be the "road to citizenship" proposed.
Nathan, I think that's probably in line with national thinking as well and not surprising. I think it also blows the lid off the stupid racist meme that gets thrown at those of us who see the need for better immigration law enforcement. The problem people have is the connotation of "amnesty". It would be a physical impossibility to deport 12mm to 25mm illegal aliens to their home countries, but citizenship should not be automatic and without stipulations either.
"More than three-quarters of the 755 Oklahomans surveyed by SoonerPoll.com July 16-21 said they favor allowing illegal immigrants to remain if they admit they broke the law, pay fines and back taxes, learn English and begin the process of obtaining legal residency.
"I think they should be given that opportunity and not just up and deport them unless they're part of some criminal element," said poll respondent Lee Oliver of Bixby. "I think they should at least be given a chance."
Ninety-three percent of those surveyed said they support stronger border security and immigration law enforcement throughout the country.
Eighty percent favor requiring Social Security cards with fingerprints or other biometric information to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get jobs.
"There are several reasons for controlling people who come into our country," said Michael Kendrick of Collinsville. "Everybody seems to think about Mexico, but there are a lot of (other) people coming in illegally."
Kendrick said he thinks most people coming to the U.S. illegally are just looking for work, but public health and security concerns make tighter controls necessary."
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20100808_16_A1_Inmate724589
Quote from: Conan71 on August 11, 2010, 02:24:34 PM
Nathan, I think that's probably in line with national thinking as well and not surprising. I think it also blows the lid off the stupid racist meme that gets thrown at those of us who see the need for better immigration law enforcement. The problem people have is the connotation of "amnesty". It would be a physical impossibility to deport 12mm to 25mm illegal aliens to their home countries, but citizenship should not be automatic and without stipulations either.
Problem is, that's essentially what the Democrats' proposal would do. The Republicans refuse to support it, oddly enough.
Quote from: nathanm on August 11, 2010, 03:24:04 PM
Problem is, that's essentially what the Democrats' proposal would do. The Republicans refuse to support it, oddly enough.
No one has seen such a proposal. Please post if it exists.
Quote from: nathanm on August 11, 2010, 03:24:04 PM
Problem is, that's essentially what the Democrats' proposal would do. The Republicans refuse to support it, oddly enough.
Where did you
smoke er
dream that up er read that?
Quote from: Conan71 on August 11, 2010, 03:41:57 PM
Where did you smoke er dream that up er read that?
Come on Conan, they have to pass it so we can see what's in it!
Quote from: Gaspar on August 11, 2010, 03:43:12 PM
Come on Conan, they have to pass it so we can see what's in it!
(http://lonewhitesoxfan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/obama_facepalm.jpg)
Quote from: Conan71 on August 11, 2010, 03:41:57 PM
Where did you smoke er dream that up er read that?
There was a draft bill released a few weeks ago. Read it. Know it. Help it get passed.
Quote from: nathanm on August 11, 2010, 04:31:19 PM
There was a draft bill released a few weeks ago. Read it. Know it. Help it get passed.
Uh, Nope. Just went to library of congress and searched for the draft. Nothing of the sort, just a bunch of resolutions from border state representatives trying to get some help or recognition of the problem.
It may not have been introduced yet. Please help us by finding a copy. It seem that the media is unaware of it's existence as well. I would like to "Read it. Know it. Help it get passed."
Quote from: Gaspar on August 11, 2010, 05:17:07 PM
It may not have been introduced yet. Please help us by finding a copy. It seem that the media is unaware of it's existence as well. I would like to "Read it. Know it. Help it get passed."
It hasn't. I'll see if I can dig a link out of my Firefox history, but my browser has been messed up lately.
A Google News search for "democratic draft immigration bill" returns quite a few news stories from late April/early May. There's some stuff around the edges that I don't like about it, but the general gist of the bill seems reasonable.
Edited to add: You are partly correct. What I read was a proposal regarding what should be in a reform bill based on Grassley and Durbin's work, not an actual bill. It just reads densely enough for me to misremember it. ;)
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congressdaily/issues/images/graphics_2010/cd-100428-rsm-bill-outline-draft.pdf
That's what I figured. It would be insane for them to pose such a bill. The purchase of the Hispanic voting block is very important to Dems. While such legislation might score them points with average Americans, it would destroy them in the polls. Not that they aren't doing a fine job of that anyway.
It's funny how all of these issues have been around for years but Republicans are all the sudden so upset by the fact that Obama hasn't fixed it yet. Stay classy repubs. At least he's making an effort to do something.
Quote from: izmophonik on August 20, 2010, 02:32:54 PM
It's funny how all of these issues have been around for years but Republicans are all the sudden so upset by the fact that Obama hasn't fixed it yet. Stay classy repubs. At least he's making an effort to do something.
Making an effort to do something? Wow, now that's substantive.
Yes, and doing nothing is even more? That's the best you can do?
In case you forgot.. here are a few things of note that he has done.
1. SCHIP Expansion
2. Hate Crime Bill
3. Fair Pay Act (which allows women to receive equal pay for the same job).
4. Stem Cell Research (sorry bible thumpers)
5. The Economic Recovery Act (Stimulus)
6. The Financial Reform Bill
7. The Health Care Bill
8. The Education Bill
9. The Energy Bill (will probably get passed in some form this year)
Not to mention appointing 2 People to the Supreme Court.
Well its time for vacation again......
Quote from: Breadburner on August 21, 2010, 09:12:54 AM
Well its time for vacation again......
Don't let them pesky facts get in the way.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 11, 2010, 02:24:34 PM
Nathan, I think that's probably in line with national thinking as well and not surprising. I think it also blows the lid off the stupid racist meme that gets thrown at those of us who see the need for better immigration law enforcement. The problem people have is the connotation of "amnesty". It would be a physical impossibility to deport 12mm to 25mm illegal aliens to their home countries, but citizenship should not be automatic and without stipulations either.
"More than three-quarters of the 755 Oklahomans surveyed by SoonerPoll.com July 16-21 said they favor allowing illegal immigrants to remain if they admit they broke the law, pay fines and back taxes, learn English and begin the process of obtaining legal residency.
"I think they should be given that opportunity and not just up and deport them unless they're part of some criminal element," said poll respondent Lee Oliver of Bixby. "I think they should at least be given a chance."
Ninety-three percent of those surveyed said they support stronger border security and immigration law enforcement throughout the country.
Eighty percent favor requiring Social Security cards with fingerprints or other biometric information to make it harder for illegal immigrants to get jobs.
"There are several reasons for controlling people who come into our country," said Michael Kendrick of Collinsville. "Everybody seems to think about Mexico, but there are a lot of (other) people coming in illegally."
Kendrick said he thinks most people coming to the U.S. illegally are just looking for work, but public health and security concerns make tighter controls necessary."
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20100808_16_A1_Inmate724589
I totally agree. And some of you say that Oklahoma is a bigoted, hateful state. Feel free to send me your address so I can ship you a jump-to-conclusions mat. Sheesh.
Quote from: izmophonik on August 20, 2010, 03:42:15 PM
Yes, and doing nothing is even more? That's the best you can do?
In case you forgot.. here are a few things of note that he has done.
1. SCHIP Expansion
2. Hate Crime Bill
3. Fair Pay Act (which allows women to receive equal pay for the same job).
4. Stem Cell Research (sorry bible thumpers)
5. The Economic Recovery Act (Stimulus)
6. The Financial Reform Bill
7. The Health Care Bill
8. The Education Bill
9. The Energy Bill (will probably get passed in some form this year)
Not to mention appointing 2 People to the Supreme Court.
But is it good legislation? And even though I don't agree with Bible thumpers, many are for stem cell research, just not embryonic stem cell research.
Wow, Oklahoma supports amnesty?!?!?