The thread, having completely moved off the topic of the North Tulsa Grocery Store, was split and the politic discourse moved to this thread. -Admin
Are you blowhards aware that people who read these posts are laughing at you? Have you noticed the decline in varied posters over the last two years? People are increasingly hesitant to acknowledge membership or participation in this forum.
Some of the remarks referring to income levels and phantom studies un-cited make the whole forum suspect to those actually involved with different strata of life. Social workers, business persons, managers of resources in all walks of life (not just oil, tech and engineering). Your orgies of gross generalizations and total inability to respond to valid, differing viewpoints is becoming tedious. Its like watching Family Guy converted to text.
I still enjoy reading the scoops on planning and development (gave up on anything with incendiary headlines or political in nature) but there is a small group of self indulgent egos around here that has fostered a very myopic view of the world.
Oh, yeah. I especially enjoy Gasbag's references to "good businessmen". There's a few jokes there somewhere.
Quote from: waterboy on March 18, 2010, 04:22:33 PM
Are you blowhards aware that people who read these posts are laughing at you? Have you noticed the decline in varied posters over the last two years? People are increasingly hesitant to acknowledge membership or participation in this forum.
Some of the remarks referring to income levels and phantom studies un-cited make the whole forum suspect to those actually involved with different strata of life. Social workers, business persons, managers of resources in all walks of life (not just oil, tech and engineering). Your orgies of gross generalizations and total inability to respond to valid, differing viewpoints is becoming tedious. Its like watching Family Guy converted to text.
I still enjoy reading the scoops on planning and development (gave up on anything with incendiary headlines or political in nature) but there is a small group of self indulgent egos around here that has fostered a very myopic view of the world.
Did you hit the Marshall's a bit early today or did someone piss in your Post Toasties? Sheesh, lighten up.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 18, 2010, 12:24:51 PM
Homeland shut down a lot of area stores over the last decade or so. I doubt the robbery there had a whole lot, if anything, to do with it closing.
Indeed... They had already announced this stores pending closure when the robbery/shootin' occurred.
Quote from: waterboy on March 18, 2010, 04:22:33 PM
Are you blowhards aware that people who read these posts are laughing at you? Have you noticed the decline in varied posters over the last two years? People are increasingly hesitant to acknowledge membership or participation in this forum.
I still enjoy reading the scoops on planning and development (gave up on anything with incendiary headlines or political in nature) but there is a small group of self indulgent egos around here that has fostered a very myopic view of the world.
I've learned to stay off politics as much as I can.
Please, start a thread or contribute something.
You used to have alot to say and to add.
Conan, I know these people. I grew up with them. Many of the generalizations being made about North Tulsans, obesity, Hispanics, etc. refer to friends of mine, family and people I (occassionally) worship wiht. Its not fair or accurate. Its hard to sit with a degree in business marketing/management and watch bumper sticker slogans passed off as business basics. There are no simple solutions to complex problems!
I also miss the wide array of viewpoints from around the city that used to be expressed here. They've been bullied away or gave up in dismay at the lack of willingness to adjust ones perceptions. I also defend the wealthy, educated and privileged when people attack them as many are also my friends. My posting has declined as I realize no one is listening, or at least responding and I'm not into futility.
I'm into French Vodka at the moment. With 7-up and a twist of lime. Very fattening.
Quote from: waterboy on March 18, 2010, 04:22:33 PM
Are you blowhards aware that people who read these posts are laughing at you? Have you noticed the decline in varied posters over the last two years? People are increasingly hesitant to acknowledge membership or participation in this forum.
Some of the remarks referring to income levels and phantom studies un-cited make the whole forum suspect to those actually involved with different strata of life. Social workers, business persons, managers of resources in all walks of life (not just oil, tech and engineering). Your orgies of gross generalizations and total inability to respond to valid, differing viewpoints is becoming tedious. Its like watching Family Guy converted to text.
I still enjoy reading the scoops on planning and development (gave up on anything with incendiary headlines or political in nature) but there is a small group of self indulgent egos around here that has fostered a very myopic view of the world.
Oh, yeah. I especially enjoy Gasbag's references to "good businessmen". There's a few jokes there somewhere.
+1
Conan, I know these people. I grew up with them. Many of the generalizations being made about North Tulsans, obesity, Hispanics, etc. refer to friends of mine, family and people I (occassionally) worship wiht. Its not fair or accurate. Its hard to sit with a degree in business marketing/management and watch bumper sticker slogans passed off as business basics. There are no simple solutions to complex problems!
I also miss the wide array of viewpoints from around the city that used to be expressed here. They've been bullied away or gave up in dismay at the lack of willingness to adjust ones perceptions. I also defend the wealthy, educated and privileged when people attack them as many are also my friends. My posting has declined as I realize no one is listening, or at least responding and I'm not into futility.
No simple solutions to complex problems.... the solutions may be simple, its the executions that get tricky ( Do unto others. Love God above all else. simple, but tricky to execute ;) )
Have I used generalizations? Sure, both sides of such discussions often do with alacrity. They can be useful but I think we all know there are limitations to any generalization or analogy. These discussions aren't meant to be scientific treatise. I do hope that I haven't said anything that was construed as an attack.
I mean no one individual. Without individual self discipline any group tends to degenerate into a kind of predatory sickness. I've been a part of that process in the past and felt so badly about it that I now try to recognize and avoid the temptation. No doubt I fail sometimes.
This group has gradually eroded the voices that don't conform to status quo. It has a built in prejudice to intellectual, ambitious, competitive, mostly male personalities. But its corrupted with pop politics. The Tulsa I see and interact with each day just doesn't seem to match what I read here. The caricatures portrayed seem to come from 1970's sit coms or bad comedy routines. Maybe Beck and Palin actually believed what they read here and decide to kick off their crusade in Tulsa for that reason.
Marketing relies on these gross generalizations in advertising efforts and I understand that. But it is not reality. People in North Tulsa eat no more fast food than those in the rest of the city. Fat people and fast food are everywhere! Tulsa is the fast food capital of the world from what I can tell. Incredible that anyone would buy comments like that when you travel Brookside or Cherry Street and find fast, fatty, unhealthy food on every block!
You want a kick? Go pick up the latest copy of La Samana, the Hispanic newspaper and compare its coverage of local/national events with what we get in the Tulsa World and local "loveboat" newscasts. Its quite fun to see the news from their view complete with alternative descriptions of the players.
Quote from: waterboy on March 18, 2010, 04:22:33 PM
Are you blowhards aware that people who read these posts are laughing at you? Have you noticed the decline in varied posters over the last two years? People are increasingly hesitant to acknowledge membership or participation in this forum.
Some of the remarks referring to income levels and phantom studies un-cited make the whole forum suspect to those actually involved with different strata of life. Social workers, business persons, managers of resources in all walks of life (not just oil, tech and engineering). Your orgies of gross generalizations and total inability to respond to valid, differing viewpoints is becoming tedious. Its like watching Family Guy converted to text.
I still enjoy reading the scoops on planning and development (gave up on anything with incendiary headlines or political in nature) but there is a small group of self indulgent egos around here that has fostered a very myopic view of the world.
Oh, yeah. I especially enjoy Gasbag's references to "good businessmen". There's a few jokes there somewhere.
Wow. My comments weren't intended to be inflammatory. I was simply commenting on that data that exists. All anyone needs to do is google "fast-food" and "low income" to get a rash of information on the subject. You can use demographic tools like Swivel or data vendors like Catosphere to pull economic data of any geographic population.
You can then choose to ignore this data if you wish.
Don't get angry. It doesn't change what is.
I am not imposing any stereotype of any kind. I am simply saying that if the data shows that a population of people frequent one type of business over another, it is very likely that the business they frequent will have a better chance of success than the business they do not.
We actually were discussing in the farm subsidies thread about how the worst foods are the cheapest, which would naturally lead to lower income people eating worse than those with a more limitless food budget. I wouldn't call that a gross generalization, more of an economic truth. To point this out isn't meant to demean or insult one group of people.
Quote from: YoungTulsan on March 19, 2010, 11:36:49 AM
We actually were discussing in the farm subsidies thread about how the worst foods are the cheapest, which would naturally lead to lower income people eating worse than those with a more limitless food budget. I wouldn't call that a gross generalization, more of an economic truth. To point this out isn't meant to demean or insult one group of people.
I'm with the rest on this. I don't think anyone was trying to draw stereotypes, nor denegrate any social groups. Let's face it though, low income people (for the most part) don't make it a priority to shop at Whole Paycheck.
I think some people were having a bad day. That's understandable.
No simple solutions to complex problems.... Implied in that statement is that there is a problem, and a complex one and thus the solutions will also be complex, in such a discussion many "solutions" will be proffered each having opposing views. This makes for a discussion that can easily veer off into many directions as each interconnected facet gets brought up.
Is one large grocery store the best solution, or would smaller corner grocery stores be better? (bring in transportation issues)
Is there an actual "food desert" at all? If so, what is the cause? (low income levels, crime, poor food choices, social habits, all of the above plus, etc.)
A seemingly simple discussion about a grocery store can lead to so many interconnected topics, and generalizations. None of which in and of themselves can offer the end solution, so each can thus be painted as wrong, or, be seen as one more part in trying to understand a complex solution.
As for lower income people buying unhealthy food because it is cheaper... that also may not be the best generalization. There are plenty of fancy healthy foods that are more expensive than the cheapest/calorie dense ones yes. But there are also plenty of basic healthy foods that are quite inexpensive and many healthy staples can be found that are often less than their unhealthy counterparts ( healthy cerials vrs sugar bombs, lowfat milk vrs whole, etc.) which can with other things act to "balance the cost equation" between healthy and unhealthy foods. Just a thought, low income or not, overweight people are often eating more than they need of those "high calorie/high satiating" foods ,,, that may indicate that there is extra money being spent on unneeded high calorie food instead of going towards some more healthy food choices.
Does Poor Income = Poor Diet?
http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/2007/07/16/does_poor_income_poor_diet.php
(Some of the differences between low-incomes and the average household)
■Higher levels of smoking and alcohol consumption, together with lower levels of activity within this low income group.
■Less likely to eat wholemeal bread, but drank more sugary drinks and consumed more table sugar
Cigarettes? Alcohol? Neither are particularly cheap. )
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/82/1/265S
Imposing a progressive cost constraint, exclusive of nutritional considerations, led to a low-cost energy-dense diet (41). The consumption of vegetables and fruit was low, and dietary energy was primarily provided by cereals and added fats. In contrast, deliberately increasing energy density of the diet did not lead to a major decline in diet costs (41). Figure 5 shows that the impact of cost on energy density (left panel) was much greater than the impact of energy density on cost (right panel).
In other words, deliberately selecting an energy-dense diet need not lead to lower diet costs. Conversely, restricting food expenditures will inevitably lead to more energy-dense diets. Consumers on a limited budget will find it difficult to find healthier diets unless they are willing to adopt unfamiliar eating habits, depart from social norms, and subsist on unpalatable foods. Strategies for dietary change, including the USDA Thrifty Food Plan (71), generally assume that the low-income consumers will do just that (78). Whereas good nutrition in the form of liver, dry legumes, peanuts, and canned fish can be inexpensive, such a diet scores low on taste, variety, enjoyment, and convenience. Although healthy diets can be assembled using inexpensive products (79, 80), USDA researchers acknowledge that this "may require some sacrifices in taste" (48). Persons facing economic constraints will preferentially select lower-cost energy-dense diets rather than abandon their usual eating habits. Strategies for dietary change ought to take food preferences and the usual eating habits into account.
LOW INCOME AND POOR HEALTH CHOICES
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:dVt0dsy-lDkJ:ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/58419/2/10-3.pdf+http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/58419/2/10-3.pdf&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
People with low incomes tend to make less healthy consumption choices than do high income people. In the case of food, agricultural economists have investigated whether this is due to the cost of a healthy diet. Studies of various aspects of the nutrition-income nexus have generally been inconclusive. We investigate a different possibility, motivated by the fact that low income individuals are most likely to be smokers, which cannot be due to limited budgets. Drawing on a body of related literature, we develop a model in which income serves not only as a budget constraint but also as a source of future utility. We test the model by estimating logistic modelsof beginning and quitting smoking. We find support for the idea that low income consumers make less healthy choices because they face lower costs in terms of foregone future utility.
There are several hypotheses seeking to explain why low income individuals have less healthy diets.
An explanation receiving much attention recently is access: low income households may have less access to sources of fruits and vegetables and other more nutritious foods and relatively easy access to energy dense foods, such as fast food. Several studies have found a positive association between low income neighborhoods and the location of fast food outlets and other sources of what is generally viewed as less nutritious foods...... But assigning cause with such studies is problematic.One of the more frequently cited reasons for poor eating patterns among low income households,especially in the nutrition literature, is affordability: healthy food costs more (Drewnowski andDarmon, 2005). Whether this is fact the case is very difficult to determine. It is often based onthe observation that the least expensive sources of calories are energy-dense foods with high oil and sugar content, and the perception that fruits and vegetables are particularly high in cost(..... But the link between such contentions and poor nutrition among low income consumers is not clear. It seems to imply that the consumers objective is to obtain a given quantity of calories at minimum cost, which is inconsistent with theproblem of excessive calories. Furthermore, USDA studies have found no evidence that lowincome individuals are priced out of fruits and vegetables. For example, one study estimated thata typical low income household given $1000 in additional income would not significantlyexpand its expenditures on fruits and vegetables.....; another showed that many fruits and vegetables are in fact quite inexpensive ......, "Affordability ...is a surprisingly complex concept to measure." ,,,,,,,,,,, food choice involves selecting foods with desired characteristics, prominent among which are taste and nutrition, and there is a trade off between them. Increasing nutrition typically requires reducing fats and sugars,ingredients whose primary purpose is taste enhancement. Foregoing the pleasure of this taste is a cost of eating a healthier diet, a cost which has nothing to do with the budget constraint: For many people, healthy eating is just not worth the effort and sacrifice.@ (p.275) Whether an individual is willing to incur this cost depends upon the benefit obtained from the increased nutrition. A major component of this is an increase in expected lifetime. The argument of this paper is that this benefit tends to be valued less by those with low income.
http://blogs.mtengine.com/cally/2006/01/health_diet_and_low_income.html
( It is often reported that accessibility and affordability are the major reasons why low income groups experience inadequate nutrition. Yet research has found this not to be the case. Of those who did not have a car, 71% did not see this as a problem and that going to the supermarket was not difficult. Additionally, two-thirds did not think their current financial situation prevented them from eating healthy food. Indeed the study showed that 73% thought they ate a healthy, balanced diet, despite not consuming current guidelines on fruit and veg consumption. ......... for many, food choice has little to do with income and more to do with likes, dislikes, familiarity and sociological factors. A fatty, salty, take away may be considered a healthy option – the only 'pleasure' afforded them.
Can Low-Income Americans Afford a Healthy Diet?
http://health.weightview.com/2008/11/17/can-low-income-americans-afford-a-healthy-diet/
............These plans specify the types and quantities of commonly consumed foods that people could purchase and prepare at home to obtain a nutritious, palatable diet at four cost levels. Even the lowest cost plan—the Thrifty Food Plan—is not a minimum cost diet of pease porridge.
For most U.S. households, these meal plans, particularly the Thrifty Food Plan, are affordable. In 2006, the cost of the Thrifty Food Plan corresponded to about 8 percent of median income for a four-person household, while the more expensive Low-Cost Food Plan totaled about 11 percent. Eleven percent of income is close to the 10-percent share that the average American household devotes to food each year. The fact that the average American household spends about 10 percent of its income on food implies that these healthy diets are affordable, or at least as affordable as the diets Americans are currently consuming.
For low-income households that receive the maximum benefit amount from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP (see box, "SNAP—Food Stamp Program Gets a New Name"), the cost of a nutritious diet modeled on the Thrifty Food Plan is also affordable since the maximum benefit amount is equal to the cost of that Food Plan. For the nearly one out of three participating households that receive the maximum benefit, SNAP benefits alone are sufficient to purchase a healthy diet.
Yes, the part of the environment that consists of (more fast food and "mini mart" type places and less large/diverse food choice stores) CAN have an influence. BUT cant be seen as THE primary cause of why people have poor diets or indicate why there are so called "food deserts". A lot of what is said in these discussions is that
........... Junk/fast food is the most inexpensive so thats what low income people buy, healthy food is not as inexpensive so they dont buy it.
........... Mini marts with more junk food and more fast food restaurants are what make it in the area over large grocery stores having a wider selection including more healthy foods.
............ Access is a problem for low income people, they need healthy options nearby in order to get to them
(((( The focus has been on getting a large grocery store in the area which will have healthy foods. ))))
Some other possibilities.
....... Large isnt the only solution, and may not be the best answer when several small stores with healthy options may be better.
...... Peoples habits and preferred choices influence what is bought and is thus available (market can influence demand but market can also meet demand)
........Healthy food isnt too expensive, though it is often less desirable (I would argue that healthy food can be prepared to be quite tasty, no, not as tasty as sugar and salt flavor bombs lol, but still a tasty choice)
......Fast food costs more than similar healthy food bought at a store to be made at home, if there is money to be spent supporting fast food places,,,, (not to mention there are often healthy alternatives at these places)
......Changing cultural habits can change the marketplace and food type availability. (often poor immigrants of every race start off finding and eating lower cost, healthier foods, but as time goes on they tend to start choosing less healthy foods)
......education can help balance the cost equation between healthy and unhealthy choices
Quote from: Conan71 on March 19, 2010, 12:02:29 PM
I'm with the rest on this. I don't think anyone was trying to draw stereotypes, nor denegrate any social groups. Let's face it though, low income people (for the most part) don't make it a priority to shop at Whole Paycheck.
I like that name, going to have to start using it. My wife and I shop there occasionally and every time we do it is always the same. We walk out of there astounded by how much more it costs for normal items. We recently bought some scallops there and they were $16.99 per pound. The next week we were at the Reasor's in Jenks and they were $11.99 per pound. Big difference. We also bought our laundry detergents and other soaps/cleaning supplies there in the past but have found they can also be purchased cheaper at Target or Reasor's. I just don't see how people can afford to shop at "Whole Paycheck" on a regular basis.
Quote from: wavoka on March 19, 2010, 01:02:58 PM
I like that name, going to have to start using it. My wife and I shop there occasionally and every time we do it is always the same. We walk out of there astounded by how much more it costs for normal items. We recently bought some scallops there and they were $16.99 per pound. The next week we were at the Reasor's in Jenks and they were $11.99 per pound. Big difference. We also bought our laundry detergents and other soaps/cleaning supplies there in the past but have found they can also be purchased cheaper at Target or Reasor's. I just don't see how people can afford to shop at "Whole Paycheck" on a regular basis.
If it's convenient, buy your fish at Bodean's or White River. I've always felt the price was fair and the quality is unquestionable.
I've often said that I am unhealthy because I can't afford to be healthy. I've been trying to get back into shape lately and all that good jazz (started last year when I quit smoking). Started buying fresh fruit and other goodly stuff, though I still bought wherever I could find it cheapest, like wally world. It didn't last long because I ended up running out of money. Now as I get ready to make some chili dogs, I sit here and wish I had some greens for a salad and maybe some fresh pineapple, then look at my wallet and get my head out of the clouds.
Quote from: custosnox on March 19, 2010, 01:43:15 PM
I've often said that I am unhealthy because I can't afford to be healthy. I've been trying to get back into shape lately and all that good jazz (started last year when I quit smoking). Started buying fresh fruit and other goodly stuff, though I still bought wherever I could find it cheapest, like wally world. It didn't last long because I ended up running out of money. Now as I get ready to make some chili dogs, I sit here and wish I had some greens for a salad and maybe some fresh pineapple, then look at my wallet and get my head out of the clouds.
I can believe it.
The wife had a come-apart when her big clothes got too little so we ended up on weight watchers.
I'm eating much healthier and it's a huge increase in our grocery budget.
It's been worth it though. She's much happier and my cholesterol/triglycerides took a huge dive.
Quote from: Townsend on March 19, 2010, 01:57:47 PM
I can believe it.
The wife had a come-apart when her big clothes got too little so we ended up on weight watchers.
I'm eating much healthier and it's a huge increase in our grocery budget.
It's been worth it though. She's much happier and my cholesterol/triglycerides took a huge dive.
I would concider it worth it as well if I could. But if you only have $20 for food for the week, then you can eat unhealthy or starve healthy. I don't like being hungry...
I'm waiting for Reasor's to start stocking High Fiber Lays & Twinkies.
Quote from: JeffM on March 19, 2010, 02:27:07 PM
I'm waiting for Reasor's to start stocking High Fiber Lays & Twinkies.
Even if they existed I don't think the commercials would ever tell the truth of what high fiber really does to a man...I mean what it
really does.
Well, I'm stuck on the high fiber diet and am missing a few inches of colon, so yeah.... anyhoo... :-[
somebody wanna get this thread back on topic?....
Quote from: custosnox on March 19, 2010, 02:03:34 PM
I would concider it worth it as well if I could. But if you only have $20 for food for the week, then you can eat unhealthy or starve healthy. I don't like being hungry...
I've been there and understand. I've had to get by on Ramen noodles and considered it a treat to be able to afford a couple of Bueno bean burritos.
As an artist, my wages fluctuate considerably so I have had many episodes of "barely having enough to eat". Each time I learn a little more and get better at fixing super cheap but healthy and tasty foods.
Noodles, whole grain, mixed with some herbs and olive oil and some pan roasted veggies is great.
Rice with an egg or two is great and you can add all kinds of things into that.
Get meat on sale, doesnt have to be the best cuts and freeze it so that you can use small portions in your concoctions.
Dried beans of different sorts and large stews can be portioned out into containers and frozen.
Frozen veggies and fruits are great sides and can again be added to the above concoctions lol.
Just last night I took some frozen strawberries, put them in a cup, zapped them in the microwave till they are hot, sprinkle on a little bit of sugar if you want.... deeeelicious. And for a splurge, add a little vanilla ice cream,,,, heaven.
Spaghetti,,, look for the most inexpensive sauce that doesnt have any, or much, high fructose corn syrum. Packed with good stuff.
Peanut butter and jelly. All natural peanut butter and low sugar jelly (or do the warmed fruit), yes costs a bit more but goes a long way.
Absolutely NO SODAS EVER! We were too poor to have them as kids, and I have never got in the habit of drinking them. Total waste of money. Drink unswetened tea, is very good for you.
Buy in bulk, look out for sales, Shop "around the edge", go very basic and have fun creating what are really old time, old world, staple recipes. Even with just the few ideas I have listed above, you can create dozens and dozens of different tasty combinations.
I am sure others can add plenty more ideas on how to each healthy, tasty, inexpensive foods.
That was good information Artist. And I think your summary is helpful. However, I think there is a disconnect between researchers who start with a premise that isn't well enough examined and then work towards analyzing every component to that particular premise. Their conclusions are then suspect. I can think of several problems with current research that are the result of intellectual and cultural biases. For instance, in your links I saw nothing relating to stress, employment, substance abuse, mental abuse, age and culture.
Show me a high stress employee who works long hours, and I'll show you a likely smoker, fast food consumer who's overweight, overcaffeinated, has no exercise program and is a heart attack waiting to happen. He's also likely to have a pretty good income.
Show me a Southern farmboy raised on grits, hogback, fried chicken, cigars, beer and long hours driving a tractor and I'll show you an unhealthy middle aged man outside of the norms for weight and lifespan but quite comfortable and unfamiliar with much fast food. Even the ones who went to Agricultural colleges.
Show me a child physically, sexually or mentally abused and I'll show you an adult likely to be unhealthy regardless of weight. The same with traumatized children. They all will exhibit extremes in food behavior.
There are no controls for heritage as well. For example, Samoans are overweight by many standards yet seem to be pretty healthy and happy and dang good football linemen. As people age their metabolism slows and they start to put on weight. Doesn't mean they aren't healthy either. People who swim the English Channel successfully tend to have higher concentrations of body fat, yet they are not unhealthy.
The disconnect comes when they fail to note that overweight people and unhealthy people are not defined or limited by income or employment status. Go looking for a red barn with a red flashlight and that's likely all you'll find. The more important factors in health are stress, culture and age. These are things we often have no control over and no amount of education in "correct" diets or easily found "healthy" foods are going to have much impact.
Gas, and others. Perhaps your intentions were not to be classist or negative in regards to minorities, low income people or particular regions of the city. Perhaps your intentions were not to denigrate areas and demographics struggling to secure the basic amenities of shopping available to the rest of us. Perhaps you respect their leaders. Perhaps your remarks were not intended to gloat over the difficulties of marketing amongst high crime areas. That wasn't what it looked or felt like to me and I responded. You should be aware that as well educated, well heeled citizens posting on the only literate forum in town that your remarks carry some weight.
You chose the research and the statistics to reinforce what seemed to be logical or self apparent facts. I didn't ignore them. I believe they are not accurate. Fast food, fat people, and unhealthy people are all over the city in fact, all over the country. In the late 19th century that would have signaled a healthy economy and considered a positive physical feature along with pale skin. We're supposedly more intelligent now, but we still make false associations of health based on physical features and wealth. Its silly.
I understand why you guys are so smugly convinced of your views. It makes sense from where you operate. You have an employer who understands that lots of personal stuff is done on company time. Things like posting on TN, Dr.s apptmnts, car repair, hour or more lunches, some personal shopping and picking up a prescription or dry cleaning. He does it too. You work long hours though and you produce income. That balances out. I know because I did that life. Self employed is even better cause you never have to even hide it!
It is humorous because you seem segregated from the very folks you seem intent on analyzing. How did you miss that a non professional couple each working, 40 + hours a week at an hourly paid job, with kids in school and an employer that will fire you if you call in sick, who doesn't allow personal time for health appointments or anything else like car repair and shopping might be stressed and resort to snacking, fast food and convenience stores instead of food plans and grocery shopping? They are stressed. It doesn't matter to their employer how well they produce. They are merely elements of production. Go to WHM on Union and observe their behavior. That's tons better than reading research. Someone breaks your windshield and steals your car and laptop you're pissed but you recover. Someone breaks their windshield and steals their car it could me a fast collapse into oblivion.
Yet they love their kids just like you. They go to church just like you and they try to live just like what they see on TV. They respect you, and I think you ought to return the favor.
You have lost it....
Quote from: TheArtist on March 19, 2010, 06:49:38 PM
Get meat on sale, doesnt have to be the best cuts and freeze it so that you can use small portions in your concoctions.
Ironically, the "best" cuts of meat are well marbled with fat. Could be the "lesser" cuts of meat may be more healthy. I base this on seeing a Navy training manual listing cuts of beef as Prime, Choice, and maybe Good based on the fat marbling. It's been a long time and I was an avionics electronic tech, one of my roomies wanted to be a cook.
Quote from: Breadburner on March 19, 2010, 10:50:55 PM
You have lost it....
I'll post quickly for you and simply, cause I know your boss is nearby and you can't finish your thoughts.
If I've lost it so has Dr. Christine Northrup. She was on PBS this morning and validated the posts I made on this subject in the last couple of days. She uses research on nutrition and consumer behavior in a more reasonable manner. May be politically hard for you to do but log on to pbs.org.
Quote from: Breadburner on March 19, 2010, 10:50:55 PM
You have lost it....
If you think waterboy's long post above is the sign of "losing it," then your critical thinking skills are suspect.
If you want an example of losing it, check FOTD's posts a few weeks ago just before he was either kicked off the forum or voluntarily left it. His musings were getting increasingly erratic.
No, I agree with Breadburner, those recent posts are off track.
You basically ranted against the evil capitalist overlords, told us the working poor are too stressed to make good food choices and illegitimately assigned a wide range of hateful, prejudiced, and wildly inaccurate verbiage to ... well, everybody else in the thread. There very well may be some good content in there somewhere, but it's all but invisible and invalidated by the rest.
Then there's always:
QuoteGo to WHM on Union and observe their behavior. That's tons better than reading research.
This goes pretty well with Shadows' Luddite ramblings, although probably 40 or 50 years' worth of cannabis less advanced. Your posts are almost always well-reasoned and interesting if not a little too populist for my palate, but here you're filling the recently-created wacky-fringeland vacuum.
By the way, if anecdotal evidence really is the best way to go, there's always this:
http://users.rcn.com/cabbidge/Index.html
---
On topic, it's no wonder the store's not doing very well with a combination of high prices and a dearth of well-known brands. Perhaps the owner's strength is bringing a product to a fresh market that has no other options...and not so strong understanding the needs he's trying to fill with the new place.
And yes, FOTD really went nuts there at the end. The posts were increasingly paranoid and irrational.
I don't understand your post. I have a business degree. I believe in capitalism. I would like to see us practice it here someday.
Shadow isn't a Luddite, he's a Bircher and bitcher. I simply note the reality I see and contrast it with the comments made here. If there is a single point I made that is not defensible, I stand ready to retract it. Meanwhile, no one has pointed anything out except that I may have misinterpreted their true feelings.
I don't defend AOX either though I enjoyed his bravery in the face of overwhelming odds. Same with FBear. I simply have watched the forum slowly move away from diverse thought and opinion. Why shouldn't those who post so frequently and passionately here object to being called out when they go too far? What I read here now is fraternity babble and bumper sticker stuff.
But you're okay. ;)
If you're being patronizing with that last bit, don't. If not, I apologize and give you my thanks. Too hard to tell.
Otherwise...
Shadows has explicitly blamed computers and manufacturing robots for wrecking his world and would gladly see them destroyed or at least retired.
Your "belie[f] in capitalism" is belied by stuff like "It doesn't matter to their employer how well they produce. They are merely elements of production," which smacks of internet-anticapitaistl-commando talk.
I assume AOX is a previous iteration of FOTD. "Bravery in the face of overwhelming odds?" I'd say the overwhelming odds against him had to do mostly with living in reality. In that sense, maybe we agree on something.
Diverse thought and opinion is one thing - constant vomiting of irrational, destructive ramblings like the two posters you've mentioned is quite another. You go too far saying that the forum is now a homogenized pastiche of fraternity babble and bumper sticker stuff. There's a bit of that anywhere one looks, but for the most part, your comment just serves to insult. Certainly you haven't ranged into dragonland, but frankly you're poking around at the border. But this is all way off topic...and I'll leave it alone now.
Quote from: buckeye on March 20, 2010, 02:01:39 PM
Your "belie[f] in capitalism" is belied by stuff like "It doesn't matter to their employer how well they produce. They are merely elements of production," which smacks of internet-anticapitaistl-commando talk.
Perhaps you aren't familiar with the actual definition of capitalism, but what we have here in this country is but one example of how it might be implemented. China is another. Japan is another. France is yet another. We all do things differently, yet we all throw our lot in with the engine we call capitalism.
Capitalism and respect for workers are not mutually exclusive things. Vacation days are not anti-capitalist. Personal time is not anti-capitalist. Flexible working hours are not anti-capitalist. I don't know where you get the idea that these things are somehow undermining our economic system.
It's unfortunate that the rantings of right wingers (I single them out because they the first and the loudest in my lifetime) have confused people more and more about what capitalism is, what socialism is, and what communism is. Their muddying of the meanings of these words has done a great job of making it impossible for people to come to an understanding of each other's viewpoints and accelerated the partisan divide in this country.
I'm pretty much with Nathan here. In fact totally with him.
I have nothing to be ashamed of in my post and I stand by it. From your posts I would deduce that you are something of an engineer not a businessman capitalist pig like myself. Either that, or you haven't worked hourly for quite some time and have not seen what is happening in the workplace. Until your last post I actually did think we just disagreed on a few items but you were okay. Had no reason to think otherwise. I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. But if you can't see what's happened here on this forum and in the "real" world then yes, you are one of them. I'll say again, I have worked for 42 years from a Safeway sacker to an executive at the 7th largest oil company in the world, to a self employed entrepreneur and back to a lowly retail employee. I am immersed in reality.
Tune in to that new show on cable where they take executives and put them in lower end hourly positions so they can see what is actually happening. They are stunned. Some of them have gotten fired. Or better yet, take a few weeks off and apply for one of those wonderful positions and feel what its like to be one of the highest producing employees in the building who is told that if they get sick one more day they will be fired. I see it all the time. (if the stockholders only knew!) Especially now after a decade of expanding power for corporates, disappearing mid level jobs and a poor economy, producing employees are so much chattel. The poor quality of new employees entering the workplace doesn't help but its no excuse for the treatment they receive.
Enough already. Its not enough to just open a grocery store where there is pent up demand. I wonder if they've done the marketing necessary to keep those customers coming? I just went to Reasors 12 hr sale which is always a real success in bringing in customers and I suspect a lot of Northside residents were shopping there. Does anyone know if they've aggressively marketed to the area?
Quote from: waterboy on March 20, 2010, 04:02:54 PM
I wonder if they've done the marketing necessary to keep those customers coming? I just went to Reasors 12 hr sale which is always a real success in bringing in customers and I suspect a lot of Northside residents were shopping there. Does anyone know if they've aggressively marketed to the area?
I think this guy going to the news and threatening to close down IS his marketing plan. Get on the news, get people worried about its closure, get people talking about his store...
Quote from: YoungTulsan on March 20, 2010, 04:36:02 PM
I think this guy going to the news and threatening to close down IS his marketing plan. Get on the news, get people worried about its closure, get people talking about his store...
Could be.
There was a men's clothing store in the town where I grew up that had a "Going out of Business Sale" every spring.
I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that lower income people would find it easier and cheaper to rely on fast food. It's expensive and amazingly time consuming to cook healthy meals. It also takes a certain amount of nutritional education that most Americans -- regardless of socio-economic status -- don't have. In a macro sense, being healthy in America takes more resources than it used to. If your resources are stretched, it's very very hard to implement. And fast food is very very easy.
All of that said, it's simplistic to suggest that that's the reason the grocery store's declining. North Tulsa is much more diverse than any of us give it credit for being, and while there are undoubtedly Poor Folk-Who-Eat-Fast-Food-Exclusively, there are also Gilcrease Hills Muckety-Mucks, Airport Apartment Dwellers, Owen Park Rehabbers, etc etc. North Tulsa's a big place.
Quote from: we vs us on March 21, 2010, 10:05:13 AM
It also takes a certain amount of nutritional education that most Americans -- regardless of socio-economic status -- don't have. In a macro sense, being healthy in America takes more resources than it used to.
Actually, it's quite the opposite. Social scientists are noting that the American palate is increasingly becoming more advanced and refined. You must realize that the majority of American cuisine came from utilizing the "leftover" and "less-desirable" parts of animals. Now, we are focusing on organic foods and more advanced flavors and spices (see: Campbells new soups using morels and pink sea salt). We dont have the culinary/historical advantage of some of the European and Asian markets, but we are increasingly closing the gap.
We did some shopping at the Los Americas at Admiral & Lewis on Saturday. If, in fact, the offerings at Gateway are similar, then I could see why that's not translating well to the black community. I still intend to get by Gateway on lunch one day to see it for myself. If the store is mis-merchandised for the community it seeks to serve, it WILL fail.
Has anyone participating in this discussion actually been there?
My intensions and the intensions of most on this thread was to look at a failing business, and figure out what is wrong with the model, in the hopes that the model can be adjusted, or that others will not make the same mistakes.
No one was passing any judgment on any part of town or group of people. This thread, and the intensions of those providing insight, research, and opinion is over now. It died through strange personal attacks on the posters.
Just for the heck of it I ran the demographic study for this area with a ½ mile and 1 mile band over the weekend. I intended to post it this morning because the results are surprising, both in income, and purchasing habits. It costs me money to purchase demographic reports.
After reading the INSANITY that some descended into on this subject, I really don't care about this audience any more.
You know, with all this discussion, I think an important aspect has been overlooked.
Tulsa is owned by Wal-Mart, and there is a Super Wal-Mart at Admiral and Memorial.
If this newcomer isn't selling Pepsi products, and has a high mark-up, he's probably losing most of his business to that store.
Running a grocery store anywhere in Tulsa is a lose/lose deal, and soon we won't have any except Neighborhood Wal-Marts, Super Wal-Marts, 3 Super Targets, and the specialty stores, like Akins.
--
I guess I was off topic earlier about the Homeland, but looking back, Homelands were union worker stores (I actually worked at one during High-School and they took $5 out of every check for union dues). Thus, they were one of the first to go as the Neighborhood Wal-Marts began their takeover.
Quote from: Hawkins on March 22, 2010, 01:53:20 PM
You know, with all this discussion, I think an important aspect has been overlooked.
Tulsa is owned by Wal-Mart, and there is a Super Wal-Mart at Admiral and Memorial.
If this newcomer isn't selling Pepsi products, and has a high mark-up, he's probably losing most of his business to that store.
Running a grocery store anywhere in Tulsa is a lose/lose deal, and soon we won't have any except Neighborhood Wal-Marts, Super Wal-Marts, 3 Super Targets, and the specialty stores, like Akins.
--
I guess I was off topic earlier about the Homeland, but looking back, Homelands were union worker stores (I actually worked at one during High-School and they took $5 out of every check for union dues). Thus, they were one of the first to go as the Neighborhood Wal-Marts began their takeover.
You can easily avoid Wal-Mart in Tulsa with several Food Pyramid's, a few Homeland's, and locally-owned Reasor's scattered throughout the city. The new Reasor's in Jenks is, IMO, the nicest grocery store in the state and their locations at 15th & Lewis and 71st & Sheridan are nice as well. You also have Whole Foods in Brookside, Akin's in midtown, and Petty's in Utica Square. There definitely could be more options but with what is currently available you can avoid Wal-Mart and Target if you want to.
I have been shopping at the Harp's store in east Tulsa at 31st and Garnett. They have a surprisingly good meat department and reasonable prices on the staples.
I also like going to Aldi's. They have weird brands but some great prices as well.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 22, 2010, 02:08:56 PM
I have been shopping at the Harp's store in east Tulsa at 31st and Garnett. They have a surprisingly good meat department and reasonable prices on the staples.
I also like going to Aldi's. They have weird brands but some great prices as well.
We love that Harps. They were doing double coupons last week. We went on Sunday and got $72 worth of groceries for $27. Well worth the drive.
They have great meat too. You can buy a whole beef tenderloin for about $35. ends up being about $3 to $5 a fillet depending on how thick you like them.
I'm consistently impressed with the 15th & Yale Reasor's. Their interesting cheese selection up in the produce section is worth special mention. The store is always well-stocked and orderly, fast and friendly checkout gals and baggers, good meats, attentive managers, etc. Prices are very good, oftentimes very close or cheaper than the nearby Neighborhood Market but better quality products.
Quote from: buckeye on March 22, 2010, 04:11:46 PM
I'm consistently impressed with the 15th & Yale Reasor's. Their interesting cheese selection up in the produce section is worth special mention. The store is always well-stocked and orderly, fast and friendly checkout gals and baggers, good meats, attentive managers, etc. Prices are very good, oftentimes very close or cheaper than the nearby Neighborhood Market but better quality products.
I also like the 15th & Lewis store. Reasor's as a whole is pretty good. I wish they would open up a store closer to, or in, downtown.
Quote from: buckeye on March 22, 2010, 04:11:46 PM
I'm consistently impressed with the 15th & Yale Reasor's. Their interesting cheese selection up in the produce section is worth special mention. The store is always well-stocked and orderly, fast and friendly checkout gals and baggers, good meats, attentive managers, etc. Prices are very good, oftentimes very close or cheaper than the nearby Neighborhood Market but better quality products.
I'm impressed with every Reasor's.
Quote from: buckeye on March 20, 2010, 12:40:49 PM
And yes, FOTD really went nuts there at the end. The posts were increasingly paranoid and irrational.
But those posts were spot on....just because you can't understand cryptographic posts is no reason to make yourself look like you know what's going on.....
This grocery store situation is a classic lesson in why government, especially our lame local rulers, and chamber maids need to butt out of real estate development. They certainly do not enhance the process.
My suggestion would be to subdivide sections of the store ala Wally World .... oh, and post a cop 24/7.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on March 20, 2010, 12:27:50 PM
If you think waterboy's long post above is the sign of "losing it," then your critical thinking skills are suspect.
If you want an example of losing it, check FOTD's posts a few weeks ago just before he was either kicked off the forum or voluntarily left it. His musings were getting increasingly erratic.
It was a self imposed cooling off period until he once again protected his account from being hacked into for the third time. Personal info will probably never be safe....
Erratic? Funny.
Quote from: fotd on March 22, 2010, 05:06:46 PM
It was a self imposed cooling off period until he once again protected his account from being hacked into for the third time. Personal info will probably never be safe....
Erratic? Funny.
Try to take it easy on the threatening PM's.
Quote from: fotd on March 22, 2010, 05:06:46 PM
It was a self imposed cooling off period until he once again protected his account from being hacked into for the third time. Personal info will probably never be safe....
Erratic? Funny.
(http://filipinovoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/paranoia.gif)
Quote from: Gaspar on March 22, 2010, 04:43:05 PM
I'm impressed with every Reasor's.
Yep. Super courteous people work there and the quality of products is superior.
They wear ties! The wife says WalMart Neighborhood grocery is cheaper but as long as I drive.......
Quote from: Gaspar on March 22, 2010, 10:44:33 AM
My intensions and the intensions of most on this thread was to look at a failing business, and figure out what is wrong with the model, in the hopes that the model can be adjusted, or that others will not make the same mistakes.
No one was passing any judgment on any part of town or group of people. This thread, and the intensions of those providing insight, research, and opinion is over now. It died through strange personal attacks on the posters.
Just for the heck of it I ran the demographic study for this area with a ½ mile and 1 mile band over the weekend. I intended to post it this morning because the results are surprising, both in income, and purchasing habits. It costs me money to purchase demographic reports.
After reading the INSANITY that some descended into on this subject, I really don't care about this audience any more.
I'm glad I got your ATTENSION. I am not insane, just irritated.
Only a mile? A half mile around the building is mostly empty land, industrial or salvage operations. A mile gives you something, but North Tulsa is a varied demographic from Gilcrease Hills to Resevoir Hills, to Apache Manor to the Airport. Wildly differing from one end to the other. Curiously, not too much in fast food joints. And only one decent grocery store.
I am beginning to believe that his difficulty in customer count (failing business?) is due to several factors mentioned here. Merchandising, marketing and competition. Imagine that.
Quote from: guido911 on March 22, 2010, 06:50:12 PM
Yep. Super courteous people work there and the quality of products is superior.
You're thinking of Albertsons. Reasor's is staffed by snot-nosed teenagers.
Quote from: Townsend on March 22, 2010, 05:43:10 PM
Try to take it easy on the threatening PM's.
Most likely from the hackers. Try wrapping your monitor with tin foil.
Quote from: nathanm on March 22, 2010, 11:02:41 PM
You're thinking of Albertsons. Reasor's is staffed by snot-nosed teenagers.
¿ What's Albertson's ?
Quote from: Gaspar on March 23, 2010, 07:48:47 AM
Most likely from the hackers. Try wrapping your monitor with tin foil.
Did that long ago.
But these were during his freak-out nearing the end of his last run because he thought I was hacking his account.
Over
Quote from: Townsend on March 23, 2010, 08:16:02 AM
Did that long ago.
But these were during his freak-out nearing the end of his last run because he thought I was hacking his account.
Over
Fairly easy to tell if someone is "hacking" an account on Simple Machines Forum by checking the log files. Unfortunately SMF is easy to hack using a masked jpg, or gif file that contains PHP code.
If FOTD used avatars from risky sites he may have inadvertently invited a visitor. . .But admins could easily see if someone else was accessing his account through the IP logs. Most likely, it was just the voices in his head.
Quote from: nathanm on March 22, 2010, 11:02:41 PM
You're thinking of Albertsons. Reasor's is staffed by snot-nosed teenagers.
Must we fight about EVERYTHING!
Quote from: Conan71 on March 22, 2010, 08:24:43 AM
Has anyone participating in this discussion actually been there?
Yes, twice.
It's clean and well-lit. It does have Hispanic-related products, but I saw plenty of produce and other stuff for the African-American community as well.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on March 23, 2010, 10:10:41 AM
Yes, twice.
It's clean and well-lit. It does have Hispanic-related products, but I saw plenty of produce and other stuff for the African-American community as well.
Then it might not be mis-merchandised and the area might not be under-served. It may well be that people get used to shopping in other areas and it's taking them time to come around, or as fotd suggested, this is what happens when politicians and paradigms interfere with economic reality.
I'm finding the claim suspect that the armed robbery really is scaring people off. I don't think you'd catch me in the Warehouse Market up at 62nd North at any time of the day. However, I don't have a problem going into where Gateway is. I wouldn't feel any less safe in that parking lot than I would the parking garage at Promenade or Woodland Hills.
I helped my brother operated a business about 1/2 mile to the east of there on Pine for a few years, so it's kind of old stomping grounds, except that corner has greatly improved in the last 20-25 years.
Dwindling numbers could simply be the result of the newness wearing off.
Quote from: guido911 on March 23, 2010, 09:22:24 AM
Must we fight about EVERYTHING!
Yeah, I slipped a few bills to a former Congressperson of mine to get a provision put in the health care bill stating that we must always disagree on every subject. I'm regretting it now, as I think we could both probably agree that the weather was nice today. :(
I'm not risking a $5000 fine, though. The weather was awful. This big glowy warm thing appeared out of nowhere and burned my skin.
Quote from: BKDotCom on March 23, 2010, 07:49:14 AM
¿ What's Albertson's ?
The grocery chain that got bought by SuperValu, who promptly decided Oklahoma was not a market worth participating in.
I liked them largely because their pricing was pretty similar to Reasor's, yet they somehow managed to employ people at a living wage. When Food Pyramid bought most of the old Albertson's locations, I heard lots of grumbling about severe pay cuts. Granted, I had never known a checkout guy could make $20 an hour and get full benefits, but it went a long way to explaining why everybody there always busted their donkey and were very fast and efficient while still remaining friendly.
Quote from: nathanm on March 23, 2010, 08:10:11 PM
The grocery chain that got bought by SuperValu, who promptly decided Oklahoma was not a market worth participating in.
I liked them largely because their pricing was pretty similar to Reasor's, yet they somehow managed to employ people at a living wage. When Food Pyramid bought most of the old Albertson's locations, I heard lots of grumbling about severe pay cuts. Granted, I had never known a checkout guy could make $20 an hour and get full benefits, but it went a long way to explaining why everybody there always busted their donkey and were very fast and efficient while still remaining friendly.
I used to sack groceries at the 51st & Harvard Albertson's. Their were at least a couple of checkers who remained up until the store changed hands. There was really great loyalty as far as grocery stores go. I do see many famliar faces at my usual Reasor's locations which tells me they have bred some loyalty.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 23, 2010, 09:06:45 PM
I used to sack groceries at the 51st & Harvard Albertson's. Their were at least a couple of checkers who remained up until the store changed hands. There was really great loyalty as far as grocery stores go. I do see many famliar faces at my usual Reasor's locations which tells me they have bred some loyalty.
I'm not saying Reasor's is terrible. The one at 15th and Lewis has quite a few people who have been there for a long while. I know several of the Albertson's staff stayed on down south, so presumably the same is true up here. I presume that's where the older folks come from. (It's probably just confirmation bias, though)