The Tulsa World reports today that the City's leadership and their spending habits could not get any more asinine...read below:
TPD chiefs' offices being remodeled
by: P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer
Saturday, November 14, 2009
11/14/2009 4:35:15 AM
While 21 police officers were on the budget chopping block, bids were opened on a remodeling project for the chiefs' section of the Tulsa Police Department headquarters.
On Oct. 23, two days before Mayor Kathy Taylor announced that 37 city employees, including 21 police officers, would be laid off, the city's Purchasing Division opened five bids on the remodeling work, ranging from a high of $93,000 to a low of about $54,000.
The engineer's total estimate for the project is $47,357 — a base amount of $42,107 with the rest for additional amenities.
The section to be reconfigured houses the offices of Chief Ron Palmer and Deputy Chiefs Mark McCrory, Dennis Larsen and Daryl Webster, along with the department's legal adviser and secretaries.
Palmer said the money to do the remodeling is coming from asset forfeitures, which can't be used for salaries.
"So it's a moot point to argue that the money could have been used to retain the three officers laid off," he said.
Palmer said the remodeling work has been planned for some time. The Police Department's headquarters are in a 40-year-old building downtown between the Tulsa County Courthouse and the Tulsa Convention Center.
Palmer said the work will involve a reconfiguration of the offices and noted that the area was last remodeled in the 1990s.
He said the deputy chiefs' offices will be moved closer together to ensure that personnel are well-positioned and that the entryway into the section is more user-friendly.
"It's no big deal," he said.
The work will include removing and erecting walls, installing new carpet, painting, and doing sprinkler work, according to project documents.
Palmer said some money could be available for furniture in the conference room.
He said he realizes that the timing of the bid opening and layoffs has created not only an opportunity for scrutiny over the spending of any funds but also for rumors to circulate.
"This isn't a situation where we decided to lay off officers and then afterwards decided to remodel the area with money that could have kept the officers," he said. "The plan to remodel the area has been going on for a long while.
"If people want to look at where money is being spent, they should look at the purchase of the automobiles," Palmer said. "We're spending millions of dollars on automobiles, and nobody is complaining that they've got new cars this year."
The asset-forfeiture money also is being spent on Taser and pepperball guns, Palmer said, "and nobody is complaining about that."
He said the reconfiguration is coming about because of the relocation of the 911 center and information technology employees.
"We just got to take advantage of some space," he said.
Palmer said there is no immediate plan to get a new building, "so we're trying to make our building the best we can with the resources we have."
(http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2009/a15tpdpolicechiefsremodbids1114.jpg)
Now lets assume Palmer is correct that these asset forfeiture funds can not be used to re-hire even one officer..if they can be used to remodel offices and purchase new equipment and furniture, what prevents these funds frombeing used to supplement the operations of the mounted patrol unit?
Palmer also asserts that millions have been spent on new vehicles for the City and that those purchases should be scrutinized before his remodeling expenditures - lest he forget he never stepped up and made it an issue when the City was purchasing all new squad cars for the TPD that are sitting idle in lots all over Tulsa, supposedly waiting on City techs to outfit them.
"Its no big deal." Palmer says...try standing before a room full of angry citizens that have watched their sales tax dollars spent with abandon and the public safety forces impacted, not to mention their city services Palmer.
Seems some of the citizens (tax payers) are reaping the fruits from the seed they have allowed to be sown. They just bought a multi-million glass tower that was to consolidate the functions of their city government. Now it seems that even though floors in the glass monstrosity remain vacant they are to spend thousands to remodel building in the old civic center. Of course the tax money is collected and distributed among the little kingdoms that have been created and like little children proclaiming "this is mine and you can't have any of it".
Do I read this right or is it "time to shear the sheep again with another fee or tax"?
Still foreign interest are buying our lands and businesses with the cheap dollar and as their interest increase they could feel that all the little kingdom are not needed.
Interesting times lie ahead.
The only thing that jumps out is the engineer estimate versus the private sector bids. The city should remodel their own offices.
More like inefficiency than a taxing situation.
Yea, I read about this in this morning's paper. Regardless of the source of the funds or restrictions on spending, the money should be banked until better times, if only for fairness and appearances sake. Palmer, or any police chief, should know better.
If we all ran our household budgets the way government does, every household in the U.S. would be declaring bankruptcy.
Since I work in an environment where, like the city, capital and o&m are seperate, I consider this story a non-starter. The comment about banking the money is just silly, especially considering we were just rehashing the story about projects put on hold and how much capital money is already banked due to bidding issues, postponements, etc. Why should they stop an office remodel but still buy shiny new cars (for the officers to drive home to Owasso) and equipment? They also stated this project was started long ago and in city terms that means years. A delay for PR reasons would likely mean years upon years before they can lay down some carpet and a coupe new doors.
They have to buy the cars because we voted for it. Then again they did change the 2 helicopters from what we voted on the first time. Making us vote again for a second one a second time because they spent all the money on the first one with extra upgrades.
You also have the AA Hanger that was changed from what we voted on also.
Quote from: MDepr2007 on November 14, 2009, 08:58:25 PM
They have to buy the cars because we voted for it. Then again they did change the 2 helicopters from what we voted on the first time. Making us vote again for a second one a second time because they spent all the money on the first one with extra upgrades.
You also have the AA Hanger that was changed from what we voted on also.
Hey,
I know how the city could save some real capital expenditure money.
How about we stop trying to sound insulate the houses of people stupid enough to buy homes next to Tulsa International?
Quote from: swake on November 16, 2009, 08:37:06 AM
Hey,
I know how the city could save some real capital expenditure money.
How about we stop trying to sound insulate the houses of people stupid enough to buy homes next to Tulsa International?
Ouch. That's going to leave a mark.
Most of those homes were there before the jet age. In fact, some before it was an airport. We should have just purchased them. But then they wouldn't have been an ongoing expense for local contractors. ;)
Quote from: waterboy on November 16, 2009, 11:15:23 AM
Most of those homes were there before the jet age. In fact, some before it was an airport. We should have just purchased them. But then they wouldn't have been an ongoing expense for local contractors. ;)
No, no way. Most of the houses around the airport are from the 50s and 60s, right when jet service was getting popular. And the airport dates to 1928.
Anyway, those big old prop planes were plenty noisy themselves.
Quote from: swake on November 16, 2009, 12:56:44 PM
No, no way. Most of the houses around the airport are from the 50s and 60s, right when jet service was getting popular. And the airport dates to 1928.
Anyway, those big old prop planes were plenty noisy themselves.
I'm sure everyone who currently lives in that neighborhood moved in before the jets did..
uh-huh...
You might be rushing the jet age in Tulsa a bit. I seem to remember our first jet was a 707 in the late 50's early 60's. Lots of postwar(II) housing over there. My first wife and I almost bought an old farm house with acreage over there that was probably built in the twenties. Nonetheless, airports are noisy neighbors.
I just don't get it... most of those residents moved in AFTER the jets were here. So they got a house cheap BECAUSE it was noisy. Are they upping the assessed tax values as soon as soundproofing is in?
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 16, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
I just don't get it... most of those residents moved in AFTER the jets were here. So they got a house cheap BECAUSE it was noisy. Are they upping the assessed tax values as soon as soundproofing is in?
Well alot of them were shocked...SHOCKED, when the flight paths changed due to runway rehab and so on.
If only FB were here to 'splain it all. Seems like there is money being made in soundproofing, re-soundproofing, thermal insulating, ad nauseum.
People kept moving into the fairgrounds area and complaining about noise and traffic from Bells and the Stock Car races even though they had been there for a long time. Those people still live there. Bell's is gone and the stockers are out north.
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 16, 2009, 01:29:52 PM
I'm sure everyone who currently lives in that neighborhood moved in before the jets did..
uh-huh...
The development of the jet engines was by Germany in WWll. A row of houses along Memorial was removed and the land is now vacant. Van started the housing addition where the insulating is being done and had financial troubles with the houses, remaining in the unfinished state for a time. Housing shortage caused by the war created the market for returning families to live. Spartan and East Central are in the flight danger zone along with ILS touchdown just feet above other commercial buildings. At one of the board meeting I questioned while other progressive cities were moving their airports out of town we were building a town around the airport. I don't believe some of the board members know Tulsa has a major airport.
???
Quote from: rwarn17588 on November 16, 2009, 08:41:21 AM
Ouch. That's going to leave a mark.
Not when it comes from people who don't know why it's being done and why people originally agreed and why people fealt obligated to do it by Susan Savage and others pushing it.
Funny how nobody likes to complain at the squandering of this same money and making sure it's all on the up & up. Then again Tulsa already got rid of the
only 2 that were stealing from the system in town ::)
Quote from: FOTD on November 14, 2009, 02:19:45 PM
The only thing that jumps out is the engineer estimate versus the private sector bids. The city should remodel their own offices.
More like inefficiency than a taxing situation.
Not too uncommon. Engineers will call and ask for a "budget price" on a project. The bid may never be let for six months after the estimate comes in.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 16, 2009, 05:00:54 PM
Not too uncommon. Engineers will call and ask for a "budget price" on a project. The bid may never be let for six months after the estimate comes in.
Why does the city not build out the space themselves?
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 16, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
I just don't get it... most of those residents moved in AFTER the jets were here. So they got a house cheap BECAUSE it was noisy. Are they upping the assessed tax values as soon as soundproofing is in?
Houses were in the upper 30's to lower 40's in 1990. I paid $38,000 for mine in 1990 .
in 2001 the taxable market value was $48,614, 2002= $51,036 , 2004= $56,272, 2008= $64,500 . My house was done in 2002/2003.
The corner lot next to me went for $70,000ish this year and was $42,000 in 1990
Quote from: FOTD on November 16, 2009, 05:10:18 PM
Why does the city not build out the space themselves?
Hah! They can't even repair a pothole. Can you imagine what their carpentry work would look like?
Quote from: Conan71 on November 16, 2009, 05:00:54 PM
Not too uncommon. Engineers will call and ask for a "budget price" on a project. The bid may never be let for six months after the estimate comes in.
Bids are always lower than the engineer's estimate at the airport
Quote from: MDepr2007 on November 16, 2009, 04:55:59 PM
Not when it comes from people who don't know why it's being done and why people originally agreed and why people fealt obligated to do it by Susan Savage and others pushing it.
Funny how nobody likes to complain at the squandering of this same money and making sure it's all on the up & up. Then again Tulsa already got rid of the only 2 that were stealing from the system in town ::)
The fact remains that for all the complaining you've done about city spending, you've been sucking pretty hard on the municipal teat yourself.
A fair number of folks would call that hypocrisy.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on November 16, 2009, 08:09:53 PM
The fact remains that for all the complaining you've done about city spending, you've been sucking pretty hard on the municipal teat yourself.
A fair number of folks would call that hypocrisy.
Didn't know I did that much but it's very little compared to the personal complaints you have on people here that adds nothing to the topics.
The municipal has spent about squat on my house . Oh until The FAA demaded that Tulsa repay the money they gave the airport during the phase I was in. Now Cinnabar is getting their money from the city after suing for the work they did during my phase...hmmm looks like you're paying twice and I have to spend close to $10,000 to fix the mistakes made for that same work if I want to sell my house and the municipal gets to keep their paper on my deed. By the way the sound program is funded 90 to 95 % by the FAA not Tulsa.
Hmm, I think RW just got schooled. (actually we all did. I forgot this was an FAA pork pickle)
Quote from: Conan71 on November 16, 2009, 11:03:31 PM
Hmm, I think RW just got schooled. (actually we all did. I forgot this was an FAA pork pickle)
C'est la vie.
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 14, 2009, 08:40:00 PM
The comment about banking the money is just silly, ...
To get back on topic...
You may think it is silly, but many of us do not. According to today's 11-19-09 Tulsa World, Palmer has decided to put the remodel project on hold, for exactly the reasons I cited: Timing and appearances, or "public perceptions." I think he made the right decision.
Sometimes doing the right thing is just silly, I suppose.
Quote from: Steve on November 19, 2009, 08:51:49 AM
To get back on topic...
You may think it is silly, but many of us do not. According to today's 11-19-09 Tulsa World, Palmer has decided to put the remodel project on hold, for exactly the reasons I cited: Timing and appearances, or "public perceptions." I think he made the right decision.
Sometimes doing the right thing is just silly, I suppose.
What amazes me from all this is that our PD leadership could be so deft that they couldn't figure out a remodel job of the chief's office would go over like a fart in church right now.
Why even think twice about it, much less let it get to the point it's up for public consideration? It's amazing all these little slush funds in the county and city that we don't appear to know about and all the funny restrictions and ordinances as to what the monies can and cannot be used for. I'll be curious to see what kind of cajones Doerflinger will have as auditor (or whether there are more ordinances that won't allow him to investigate these little fiefdoms).
Say, isn't Chief Palmer an at-will employee now? Who's to say he will stay on and serve at the pleasure of Mayor Bartlet (sic).
Quote from: Conan71 on November 19, 2009, 09:42:11 AM
What amazes me from all this is that our PD leadership could be so deft that they couldn't figure out a remodel job of the chief's office would go over like a fart in church right now.
Why even think twice about it, much less let it get to the point it's up for public consideration? It's amazing all these little slush funds in the county and city that we don't appear to know about and all the funny restrictions and ordinances as to what the monies can and cannot be used for. I'll be curious to see what kind of cajones Doerflinger will have as auditor (or whether there are more ordinances that won't allow him to investigate these little fiefdoms).
Say, isn't Chief Palmer an at-will employee now? Who's to say he will stay on and serve at the pleasure of Mayor Bartlet (sic).
The paper says that the funds for the remodel are to come from asset forfeitures and cannot be used for salaries. I suppose the thinking behind that rule is a conflict of interest issue, to prevent unfair asset siezures by law enforcement just to pad the payroll account.
Palmer said putting the project on hold is "no big deal." Sounds to me like the remodel is unnecessary and shouldn't be done at all.
Quote from: Steve on November 19, 2009, 11:39:11 AM
The paper says that the funds for the remodel are to come from asset forfeitures and cannot be used for salaries. I suppose the thinking behind that rule is a conflict of interest issue, to prevent unfair asset siezures by law enforcement just to pad the payroll account.
Its still a conflict of interest because it is being used at the pleasure of the department head.
If we were to take the moral high ground on forfeited assets, it would go to schools or something similar.
In the interpretation of the ordinances negotiated between the union and city attorneys on police cars becoming personal property, when used outside the city would seem the be in violation of the founding fathers intent of equal protection under law. Or should all city employees be furnished cars?
The more the special funds and special privileges are highlighted it could be assumed the taxpayer (the ones that do not rebate a portion of their income received from government back to government as taxes) are considered as just dumb and stupid.
Before the councilors placed their "yes" stamp they should have been advised that the union/attorney agreement prevailed over city ordinances and case law as well as good sense.
We pay for surveys that suggest there we are overburdened with overpaid desk jockeys while declining taxpayers move to the burbs. This is being reflected in the out of town workforce controlling our elections as is shown by the reduction of votes cast in the recent election whereas a minority of registered voters elected the city representatives for the coming years.
Now we have overspent the taxpayers contribution for the necessities demanded in urban gatherings only to find non elected secondary government at-will employees have exclusive rights to thousands of dollars to spend derived from the taxpayer.
Did Bugs Bunny use a phrase similar to "what a bunch of macaroons"?
Quote from: shadows on November 19, 2009, 01:57:10 PM
Did Bugs Bunny use a phrase similar to "what a bunch of macaroons"?
"maroon" actually. I dig the reference.
Quote from: Townsend on November 19, 2009, 02:16:04 PM
"maroon" actually. I dig the reference.
Tnx for the information. I was barely in the out field in that new ball park under construction. I will make a note of it because I cannot see it going away soon.
Someone say maroon?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Maroon.svg/600px-Maroon.svg.png)
Conan71:
That's neat but you should have put a staff on it so it could be stuck in the front lawns of people who resented their representatives (After voting for open shops) being afraid of the big bad FOP thus showing they have had enough of the show of cowardice to challenge a negotiated contract without the showing of clean hands or common sense let alone good sense.
Remember the convicting of county commissioners using county machines brought through capital improvements, being used on private projects? There are statutes covering private use of municipality purchased capital property but I cannot find case law voiding it. Are police cars capital improvements or for private use outside the city limits?
When any contract is negotiated by fraud then the test should show that fraud.
China will possible make the maroon flags but they have so many valueless dollars that they now demand up front that they must be converted to Chinese currency. ;D ;D
.