Driving down from KS to OK on 35 and seeing the HUGE wind farm, got me thinking again.
We live on 2.5 acres near NSU BA. I believe we'd be a good candidate for a moderate size pole.
Anyway, can someone chime in that's done the research for a consumer, ie Household.
We plan on staying in this house for the next 20-30 years, so if we could get a break even $ after say 10 years, that'd be okay. I'd like to ultimately have a $0 electric bill.
Having nine solar panels on my roof and an electric bill that seldom surpasses $20, I think I can give you sound advice before you start shopping around for wind turbines.
The single most important thing you can do before you start shopping for renewable energy options is to cut your power consumption. That way, you have a good chance of spending considerably less money on renewable options later simply because you don't need as much power.
I'm not talking about leading a caveman existence. Swap out regular light bulbs for compact fluorescents. Make sure you have enough insulation in your house. If you have an old appliance that'll go kaput soon, replace it with an Energy Star-rated appliance. If you have an electric water heater, swap it for a gas model or, better yet, a solar water heater (there's lot of tax breaks with those, too). If you need a new roof, make sure you install light-colored shingles instead of dark. These things I mentioned and others can cut your power usage by 50 percent or more. I can tell you this from experience.
As for wind, there are some promising and easy-to-install models out there, such as Mariah Wind. But truth be told, this part of Oklahoma is marginal for wind power. You have to be about 100 miles further west to truly get good benefits from wind power. It'd probably be best if you use a hybrid power system of wind and solar.
The house I bought last spring has high-end thermal windows throughout and a high efficiency heating/cooling unit. My highest electric bill this summer was $52, most recent was $36 or $38 I think. It would take forever for me to get a good payback out of any sort of renewable energy source. We'll see how the gas bills are this winter, but I suspect they will be a good deal lower than what they were in my last house. I got more space with this house, but it's a lot more air-tight and has had all the good mechanical upgrades done to it.
Some stats to run thru:
We just moved into this house in June. It's a 2 story / 2 zone, 3300 square feet, built in '86 (IIRC) Since then I've replaced most of the "always on" lights with CFL and we just replaced some 30, yes.. as in THIRTY metal trim windows with Low-E Vinyl (that sorta hurt the pocket book!!!). Roof was replaced last year along with every other roof in tulsa cause of the ice storms.
I haven't been monitoring my utility bills, but even I did, there's no way to get a base line cause we've done so many changes and haven't 'settled in'.
The only thing left I think we may do is put on some new siding, so that'll up the insulation a bit.
I know it's a pipe dream for the generator to 'earn income' but who knows, if we start now, maybe in 20 years we'll be turning a 'profit'.. lol.
I need to dig thru my past utility bills and have a 'wind study' I guess, heck, I just need to call the wind guys and have rep come out and give us their pitch.
Quote from: Mike 01Hawk on October 22, 2009, 02:43:18 PM
I know it's a pipe dream for the generator to 'earn income' but who knows, if we start now, maybe in 20 years we'll be turning a 'profit'.. lol.
If you're thinking about tariff feeds in case you generate more electricity than you consume, forget it. Oklahoma and many other states do not pay you for generating more juice than you consume.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on October 22, 2009, 03:25:14 PM
If you're thinking about tariff feeds in case you generate more electricity than you consume, forget it. Oklahoma and many other states do not pay you for generating more juice than you consume.
Ignore him..
Net metering has been available in Oklahoma since 1988 under Oklahoma Corporation Commission (OCC) Order 326195.
So anyone look into Solar, Geo, or Wind power for their house?
Tulsa Public Schools is getting a new type small wind turbine donated in a couple of weeks at the site of the ropes course.
Send me a private message and I will send you an invite to the ceremony.
Thanks, RM.
BTW, here's the data I have so far. The Per KWH is of course my 'realized' cost after all the taxes and what not, not the real rate of KWH.
Date KWH $ Per KWH
10/12/2009 955 $75.21 $0.0788
9/11/2009 1,476 $108.65 $0.0736
8/12/2009 2,004 $145.93 $0.0728
7/14/2009 2,424 $175.79 $0.0725
Quote from: TeeDub on October 22, 2009, 03:43:50 PM
Ignore him..
Net metering has been available in Oklahoma since 1988 under Oklahoma Corporation Commission (OCC) Order 326195.
Net Metering mostly allows running your meter backwards to zero, such that you can potentially have no electric bill. There's an annual max KWH to which this can apply, I believe 25,000 KWH/yr.
Beyond that, Net Metering output greater than your own usage will be purchased by the utility company at what's called the "Avoid Cost". That's the cost avoided by the utility company by not having to produce that energy. Typically, this is in the $0.02-$0.03/KWH range. So, don't plan to make any money this way.
It's also illegal to 'share' your generation with anyone around you in any way.
Oklahoma, like several other states, needs to push for what's called "Feed-In Tariffs" for energy produced in this manner. With Feed-In Tariffs, generators are paid wholesale market rates for all energy produced above their own useage.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_Tariff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_Tariff)
Make sure to check ordinances/neighborhood codes. In a few instances people have installed wind turbines only to be forced to remove them when the constant whir annoyed the hell out of their neighbors. This noise varies by model, but while 2.5 acres is enough to put one in . . . it probably isn't enough to keep the noise away from neighbors if you choose a louder model.
When evaluating small wind turbines, be careful about the ratings provided by the manufacturer. Small turbines are not rated the same way as are large wind turbines.
And, most small turbines use 12 mph as the rated windspeed when determining the turbines' output. Very few areas have an average windspeed of 12 mph or better. Be conscience of the fact that a 2 mph difference in average windspeed can produce a 50% change in output.
It's been awhile since I looked at small turbines (100KW and less), so the industry may have changed somewhat in the years since, but typically the first question asked is what is your current electric bill. From there, your installed cost becomes breakeven at 10 years, and assuming the above ratings, which probably will not happen. Try to get a unit cost on the turbine and seperate cost for installation. Do your own calcs. Understand your own wind resource. Don't be afraid to make an offer different from the one they give you, especially if your own calcs indicate a model supporting your offer.
From what I've seen of the marketing marterials of small wind turbines lately, they tend to market them as 'reducing' your current bill, by around 30%-50%, rather than eliminating it.
That's because most small turbines simply cannot produce enough to power your entire place with a single turbine. They also tend to produce direct feed output to the grid (your place) rather than include a battery array for storage. Intermitant output, then, is lost when not used immediately. That is, your generation cost per KWH is likely to be higher than the Avoid-Cost paid you for excess generation.
Adding a battery array is costly, making the breakeven point much further away. Battery (or other) storage is the only way to have an on-demand system, which can utilize all the turbines' output.
The first question is if you intend to be Grid-Tied or not.
Grid Tied would be the way I'd want to go.
After doing a little digging, I see that the Skystream 3.7 w/ 12mph winds would only be producing ~400kWHr. So, less than 1/4 of my needs during summer. :(
There was a rough quote of ~$90k to get enough solar to power my house from this board: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
That averages out to ~18c a kWHr, almost triple the current cost of electricity :(
So, I thought there might be a magic bullet, turns out there's not. I've got bigger fish to fry (siding comes to mind). I still have a lot of info to gather, granted, but I think I'll put this on the back burner for now.
Quote from: Mike 01Hawk on October 27, 2009, 07:15:48 AM
Grid Tied would be the way I'd want to go.
After doing a little digging, I see that the Skystream 3.7 w/ 12mph winds would only be producing ~400kWHr. So, less than 1/4 of my needs during summer. :(
There was a rough quote of ~$90k to get enough solar to power my house from this board: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
That averages out to ~18c a kWHr, almost triple the current cost of electricity :(
So, I thought there might be a magic bullet, turns out there's not. I've got bigger fish to fry (siding comes to mind). I still have a lot of info to gather, granted, but I think I'll put this on the back burner for now.
If Solar is that expensive (holy crap $90K????), and wind won't help with your needs, look into a higher seer a/c unit. If your a/c is more than ten years old, there's likely efficiency to be gained there. A/C units are the power hog of a house. I don't see siding helping unless you are adding insulation underneath. The windows you already did will be a big help.
Your idea of a 10 year pay-back in your OP or 2nd post is what most commercial and industrial end-users look at when deciding if a project is viable or not. Anything less than 10 years on large-scale energy conservation projects is considered a total bonus.
Several things which turned me on about the house I bought last spring were high end thermal windows, a high-end recent heating and cooling system, recent roof, good programmable thermostat, and some strategically-placed trees. I've been amazed at how low my electric bills are and Lortondale houses are notorious for being energy hogs.
Think that's probably 400 Watts or 0.4KW per hour.
Besides that, Tulsa area (BA) winds are nowhere near 12mph average windspeed. Maybe 10mph at best.
Bixby's MESONET station reports 7.9 mph windspeed average so far for the month of October 2009. September's average was 6.0 mph, August 6.8 mph, July 6.0 mph, June 7.6 mph, May 7.2 mph, April 10.1 mph, March 11.0 mph, Feb 10.3 mph, Jan 8.4 mph.
The wind power production is going to be waaay less than 2/3rds of the 12 mph rating at even 8 mph averages.
At the above windspeed averages, I'd guess the output would be closer to 100 Watts most times.
From what I've been reading lately, Solar panels should have an installed cost of less than $4/watt these days.
Federal target is $1/watt. Some recent advances are beginning to approach that rate, but are not commercially available yet.
Quote from: Wrinkle on October 27, 2009, 09:41:45 AM
Think that's probably 400 Watts or 0.4KW per hour.
Besides that, Tulsa area (BA) winds are nowhere near 12mph average windspeed. Maybe 10mph at best.
Bixby's MESONET station reports 7.9 mph windspeed average so far for the month of October 2009. September's average was 6.0 mph, August 6.8 mph, July 6.0 mph, June 7.6 mph, May 7.2 mph, April 10.1 mph, March 11.0 mph, Feb 10.3 mph, Jan 8.4 mph.
The wind power production is going to be waaay less than 2/3rds of the 12 mph rating at even 8 mph averages.
At the above windspeed averages, I'd guess the output would be closer to 100 Watts most times.
If he's set up direct grid though, winds are generally higher between sun up and sun down, when you would have peak loads on the cooling system, you might come close to the 400 watt ouput, though not sure how much that helps offset air conditioning use. I was going to say if it was 400 KwH, that's a great generator! July and August which are peak cooling months also have the lowest wind average, but plenty of sun.
I still think cutting usage is his least expensive way to go.
Not sure, but my general observation is that overnight winds tend to be larger than daytime/sunlight hours. I'll have to look at that. Even more pronounced are the winds associated with weather fronts, whenever they come through.
Yeah, 400KwH's would be great. Unfortunatly, the way the incintives are designed, getting either a turbine large enough to do that, or one large enough to actually power your entire place fall outside the size limits allowed (100KW+ size).
That scale of turbine is also where the economics actually start to show.
So, IMO, smaller turbines are not cost beneficial at this point.
If there's a reason, like a lake cabin and a need to charge batteries, standby power or such, then it will work, but is costly, $0.12/KWH or more at best.
btw, a 1.5MW wind turbine operating at 33% capacity factor produces only 500KwHs average. Ask your neighbors how they feel about a 400' turbine in your back yard.
I should say a 10KW or 20KW turbine could do one entire house. But, the cost would be the factor to consider. They should be less expensive than they're being offered.
A quick search turned up this....
http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=5257485 (http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=5257485)
$14K for a 10KW turbine might work.
Add shipping and installation costs.
You might get 3KW average out this, enough to power a house under the right set of conditions.
These have been priced in the $20-$30K range even recently.
...the 380-volt output seems odd to me.
The 5kw they show actually seemed pretty realistically priced, but the damn thing is about 20ft or so in diameter.
http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=5267388
Interesting you mentioned the lake house example. Wind and solar power are quite popular with the sailboat cruising crowd and work quite well as a dual system for keeping the house batteries charged up when you can't plug into shore power for extended periods.
The 400 KWh per month I quoted, which is less than 1/4 of my power consumption in July, came from this link:
http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream-info/
"Estimated Energy Production: 400 KWh per month at 12 MPH (5.4 m/s)"
Someone installed one of these units and he was having less than ideal wind, his power per month ranged from like 100-300... OUCH!
Check out this forum for more info:
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
And my specific thread where the $90k quote for solar (to power me at peak 2500 KWh month usage):
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=6182
:)
Sounds like, at this point, home wind generators are an altruistic, not practical or economical way to generate electricity.
Interesting topic anyhow. A lot better than talking about shrimpers and spooners in politics.
Quote from: Mike 01Hawk on October 27, 2009, 05:50:24 PM
The 400 KWh per month I quoted, which is less than 1/4 of my power consumption in July, came from this link:
http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream-info/
"Estimated Energy Production: 400 KWh per month at 12 MPH (5.4 m/s)"
Someone installed one of these units and he was having less than ideal wind, his power per month ranged from like 100-300... OUCH!
Check out this forum for more info:
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
And my specific thread where the $90k quote for solar (to power me at peak 2500 KWh month usage):
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=6182
:)
400 KwH per month comes to an annual production of 400 x 12 = 4,800 KwHs. About two months worth. 2/12ths is about a 17% reduction in your current bill/usage. So, if you pay $100/mo now, you can apply $17/mo to amortize your system. $17/mo for 10 years is $2,040.
In reverse, 400KwH/mo is about 13KWHs/Day average. If your load is 5KW, that's less than 3 hours usage per day. 3/12 is 1/4 (12 hours of peak load spread over 24 hours). 13KWHs/Day =~ 0.5KW Turbine output rating average per hour.
That'd get perhaps 25% of your usage, not counting time/demand issues, which could cut this up to around half.
That's why a battery storage system is really needed, so it can meet your demand, rather than trying to use it when it occurs. Plus, batteries provide the amperage needed to start motors (dishwashers, compressors). Big capacitors can also be used for this.
Your 2,500 KWH/mo peak is really peak gross usage, not real peak load. That 2,500 KWH/mo comes down to an average load of about 3.5KW for each hour, over a 24 hour day. I'd guess your real peak load would be around 5.0KW during peak usage (a/c load, lighting load from 6pm-9pm) and drop to under 2.0KW as background during the late night, perhaps.
A complete solar and/or wind system would need to provide this peak load. If we assume a 33% Capacity Factor, your turbine would need to be 15KW in size. A Battery Array would need to be 5KW (with some margin), and your Solar Panels would need be sized to be able to keep 5KW worth of batteries charged to some minimal capacity at all times.
Since Peak Usage occurs during small or no sun hours, the batteries would need to provide all the load during your peak hours. A wind system could be charging them throughout, depending on the current wind conditions. A solar panel has to wait until sunup to begin recharging.
Anyway, if a 5KW Panel system were required, that panel system (at $4/watt) would cost about $20,000 installed. But, you would have to add the battery array cost. Deep Cycle cell batteries like this cost between $200-$400 ea. It takes 4 to produce 48 volts (typical, but 24-volt systems are also common). The Amphour rating of the batteries determines how long they can provide their rated power. So, take that and divide it into how long you need however many watts and get a battery count. This ends up being a dozen or more.
On your forum link, they're using $6-$10/Watt installed cost. That seems way high to me. If history is proving itself here, the industry has added 30% or more to the cost to allow you a 30% tax credit.
But, it's more than 30%. 50% at $6/watt compared to $4/watt.
Look around, there's better deals.
Sounds like you know your stuff Wrinkle, good read on putting some of that stuff into "real world English".
I wish someone could just come to my location and say "if you spend X amount, it'll cover Y of your electricity needs and cost Z per kWhr"
Sure would be nice to not pay $175+ to PSCO every month. Then again, how many months could $20k or whatever pay for? Like the guys on the wind/solar forum said: Focus on conservation and efficiency first, and I suppose that's what I'll do.
Have you looked at geo-thermal heating and cooling.....Thats where the majority of your energy cost go.....
Quote from: Breadburner on October 28, 2009, 06:24:45 AM
Have you looked at geo-thermal heating and cooling.....Thats where the majority of your energy cost go.....
I'm convinced this is the way to go, at least in the Tulsa area.
Here's a link to a pretty neat installation and monitoring system.
http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/phase3.htm (http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/phase3.htm)
The monitor:
http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/monitor/monitor.htm (http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/monitor/monitor.htm)
Adding Solar Water Heating would also prove beneficial, IMO.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on October 25, 2009, 02:14:12 PM
Tulsa Public Schools is getting a new type small wind turbine donated in a couple of weeks at the site of the ropes course.
Installation started today and the grand ribbon cutting ceremony is Thursday at 1pm. The generator is a small vertical axis with a small foot print. It will supply enough energy to power all the lighting in the main entrance and classroom.
This is the brand...http://www.mariahpower.com/
Quote from: RecycleMichael on November 03, 2009, 02:43:40 PM
Installation started today and the grand ribbon cutting ceremony is Thursday at 1pm. The generator is a small vertical axis with a small foot print. It will supply enough energy to power all the lighting in the main entrance and classroom.
This is the brand...http://www.mariahpower.com/
Nice feely-good project. Specs suggest 2,000 kWh/year at 12mph average windspeed. At Tulsa's 10mph or less average, and in relation to its Power Curve, I wouldn't expect more than half to a quarter of that, especially when demand time use is included. If a battery array is also installed, at additional cost, it becomes very marginal, even on a donated turbine.
Hope they build a website for realtime monitoring of the thing.
Only then would it become the educational and demonstrational project intended. That would have some value.
If nothing else, it would show some sites are not really well suited to wind power.
Well holly crap!!! I had an AMAZING discovery today!!! Hyper hyper!!!!!
So, it's now fall, fall = less/no leaves on the trees. Meaning I can see more stuff around my house. I can even clearly see the Coweta Power plant from my back yard. Anyway, I go out side to do some yard work this morning, and what the hell do I see???? In my neighbor's yard a couple houses down???? TWO VAWTs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW FRIGGEN AWESOME IS THAT?!?!?!?! I couldn't even feel the wind blowing this morning and those suckers were spinning like crazy.
Now all I need to do is go schmooze on up to my neighbor and pick their brains to death. I couldn't ASK for a better 'real world' scenario! I'll know exactly what kind of #s I'll get if I install one on my property.
It's like a sign or something, lol!
Anyway, once I get the guts to go randomly knock on a strangers door I'll get back w/ the info I gleam.
Very interesting...
Post back to the forum when you get the skinny.