These people are genuine idiots! How'd they ever get elected in the first place? This must be Oklahoma where only %23 of high schoolers know the name of our first President .
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/09/19/coburn-schwartz-pornography/
SCHWARTZ: But it is my observation that boys at that age have less tolerance for homosexuality than just about any other class of people. They speak badly about homosexuality. And that's because they don't want to be that way. They don't want to fall into it. And that's a good instinct. After all, homosexuality, we know, studies have been done by the National Institute of Health to try to prove that its genetic and all those studies have proved its not genetic. Homosexuality is inflicted on people.
Schwartz then recalled "a very good friend" of his "who was in the homosexual lifestyle for a long time," saying that he "had good conversations about, about the malady that he suffered." He then relayed "an astonishingly insightful remark" his friend had made about the relationship between pornography and being gay:
SCHWARTZ: And one of the things that he said to me, that I think is an astonishingly insightful remark. He said, "all pornography is homosexual pornography because all pornography turns your sexual drive inwards. Now think about that. And if you, if you tell an 11-year-old boy about that, do you think he's going to want to go out and get a copy of Playboy? I'm pretty sure he'll lose interest. That's the last thing he wants." You know, that's a, that's a good comment. It's a good point and it's a good thing to teach young people.
This is dangerous thought process....and he runs Coburn's world. WEIRD!
I guess if some of the gay people on the board want to turn straight we know the answer. Watch a ton of gay porn. If straight porn turns you gay then gay porn turns you straight. According to the SCHWARTZ
I'm pretty sure at 11 I would've loved to have a copy of playboy..
Just saying..
So are all Narcissists gay? I'm just trying to keep track.
I guess that explains why everybody reads Playboy just for the articles.
Quote from: Trogdor on September 22, 2009, 08:41:02 AM
I guess that explains why everybody reads Playboy just for the articles.
Why? Was there some other reason to buy it?
Quote from: Conan71 on September 22, 2009, 08:55:34 AM
Why? Was there some other reason to buy it?
I can tell by your total lack of interest in looking at naked women that you are the straightest man on this board (according to Schwartz)
Quote from: Trogdor on September 22, 2009, 09:27:34 AM
I can tell by your total lack of interest in looking at naked women that you are the straightest man on this board (according to Schwartz)
He even named his guard dog Butch.
Quote from: Trogdor on September 22, 2009, 06:56:06 AM
I guess if some of the gay people on the board want to turn straight we know the answer. Watch a ton of gay porn. If straight porn turns you gay then gay porn turns you straight. According to the SCHWARTZ
I thought it was the WNBA that gave you the gays
QuoteSCHWARTZ: But it is my observation that boys at that age have less tolerance for homosexuality than just about any other class of people. They speak badly about homosexuality. And that's because they don't want to be that way. They don't want to fall into it. And that's a good instinct. After all, homosexuality . . . . is inflicted on people.
Awesome.
1) We can tell something is bad because 11 year old boys will be against it. Like kissing girls, skinny dipping with girls, or a stiff bourbon. Based on the "what 11 year old boys think goes" rule I will destroy my gay-inspiring awesomely heterosexual porn stash and pick up some totally non-gay Pokemon cards.
2) I'm glad my fear of catching the gay has been verified. But I'm afraid I've been going about it all wrong. I thought straight porn and vigorous heterosexual activities would inoculate me from the gay. I fear I've horribly infected myself and he doesn't give me any hint of a cure!
3) If pornography teaches us to look inward for sex. And looking inward for sex causes the gay. Then what we need to do is teach small children to look for sex outwardly to prevent them from catching the gay. Which kinda goes against the whole abstinence only thing.
I got it! What we COULD do is arrange sexual encounters between these young boys and older distinguished men. That way they would have real sexual encounters, gay sexual encounters. They wouldn't have to look inward for sex and wouldn't have to look at porn and wouldn't be exposed to heterosexual ways. Then, we'd have less gay in the world.
It all makes sense. In a totally bat-smile crazy kind of way. Well no, not even then.
Side note: think of three atrocities committed in the name of, or purporting to advance religion. Think of three atrocities committed in the name of, or purporting to advance homosexuality. Which is more dangerous (Mrs. Kern)?
Quote from: cannon_fodder on September 22, 2009, 03:06:35 PM
I got it! What we COULD do is arrange sexual encounters between these young boys and older distinguished men. That way they would have real sexual encounters, gay sexual encounters. They wouldn't have to look inward for sex and wouldn't have to look at porn and wouldn't be exposed to heterosexual ways. Then, we'd have less gay in the world.
Wasn't there a large religious orginazation that tried this? ;)
Quote from: cannon_fodder on September 22, 2009, 03:06:35 PM
Awesome.
1) We can tell something is bad because 11 year old boys will be against it. Like kissing girls, skinny dipping with girls, or a stiff bourbon. Based on the "what 11 year old boys think goes" rule I will destroy my gay-inspiring awesomely heterosexual porn stash and pick up some totally non-gay Pokemon cards.
2) I'm glad my fear of catching the gay has been verified. But I'm afraid I've been going about it all wrong. I thought straight porn and vigorous heterosexual activities would inoculate me from the gay. I fear I've horribly infected myself and he doesn't give me any hint of a cure!
3) If pornography teaches us to look inward for sex. And looking inward for sex causes the gay. Then what we need to do is teach small children to look for sex outwardly to prevent them from catching the gay. Which kinda goes against the whole abstinence only thing.
I got it! What we COULD do is arrange sexual encounters between these young boys and older distinguished men. That way they would have real sexual encounters, gay sexual encounters. They wouldn't have to look inward for sex and wouldn't have to look at porn and wouldn't be exposed to heterosexual ways. Then, we'd have less gay in the world.
It all makes sense. In a totally bat-smile crazy kind of way. Well no, not even then.
Side note: think of three atrocities committed in the name of, or purporting to advance religion. Think of three atrocities committed in the name of, or purporting to advance homosexuality. Which is more dangerous (Mrs. Kern)?
So, at what point after leading my hedonistic hetero lifestyle will I start
feeling gay?
Quote from: Conan71 on September 22, 2009, 03:52:43 PM
So, at what point after leading my hedonistic hetero lifestyle will I start feeling gay?
I'm not sure when it will be
inflicted upon you. I only know that it will. ;)
Quote from: cannon_fodder on September 22, 2009, 04:03:37 PM
I'm not sure when it will be inflicted upon you. I only know that it will. ;)
I think it may have started, see Townsend's post above.
And then there's the biker shorts . . .
I haven't started downloading Broadway show tunes off iTunes yet and I don't have a thing for Judy Garland
Quote from: Conan71 on September 22, 2009, 04:56:29 PM
I haven't started downloading Broadway show tunes off iTunes yet and I don't have a thing for Judy Garland
You Lie!
What about those skirts?
Quote from: FOTD on September 22, 2009, 05:25:28 PM
You Lie!
What about those skirts?
You promithed you wouldn't kith & tell!
Quote from: Conan71 on September 22, 2009, 06:58:11 PM
You promithed you wouldn't kith & tell!
Curb your enthusiasm....FOTD was speaking towards the ones you chase.....
Quote from: FOTD on September 22, 2009, 07:00:52 PM
Curb your enthusiasm....FOTD was speaking towards the ones you chase.....
Busted. Guilty as charged. I can't help it, I'm a flaming hetero.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 22, 2009, 07:06:39 PM
Busted. Guilty as charged. I can't help it, I'm a flaming hetero.
That you are, but Coburn's brain may be a closeter.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 22, 2009, 07:06:39 PM
Busted. Guilty as charged. I can't help it, I'm a flaming hetero.
Ah, so many very manly men on this board. You guys crack me up!
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SDMP55AeMI_mRM:http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/28537/544856-dangle_01_large.jpg)
Commendable citizens show the guts to speak out against hate and the politicians who propagate lies and intolerance.
Groups call for aide's firing
The request stems from recent comments made by Sen. Coburn's chief of staff.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090926_16_A15_WASHIN843591
" Neither Coburn nor Schwartz, who has been with the Oklahoma Republican for years, responded to a request for comment."
"We should all be concerned about our children and vigilant against anything that would harm them," she said.
"However, Schwartz should be educated on the evidence showing reparative therapy to be harmful to development."
Released by Oklahomans for Equality, their press release also cited a statement endorsed by major health and mental health professions that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and does not need a "cure."
Coburn needs to go.
Quote from: FOTD on September 26, 2009, 12:49:36 PM
Coburn needs to go.
Why Coburn? It's not like he said it.
The aide, on the other hand, needs to be fired to being unbelievably stupid.
Quote from: swake on September 22, 2009, 09:58:14 AM
I thought it was the WNBA that gave you the gays
No. It's soy.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53327
(http://www.babble.com/CS/photos/babble/images/493/secondarythumb.aspx)
You're free to choose any denomination as long as it's Christian. Which can be a mistake as well. I'm sure the Baptists know the Presbyterians are going to hell, but at least they are playing in the right ball park so to speak.
Screw the atheists!
Religion is not a choice but being gay is, GOP leader's spokesman says
http://rawstory.com/2009/10/religion-is-not-a-choice-but-being-gay-is-gop-leaders-spokesman-says/
" religion is a trait you're born with."
This bonehead spent too much time in the tanning bed and needs to be sent on his way far from DC and our constitution.
Why GOP Leader Opposes Hate Crimes Protections for Gays
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/13/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5381671.shtml
Proof: Doctors are just other human beings. They are not Gawds....tell Tom.
Coburn tells seniors: 'You're going to die soon' if the Senate health care bill passes.http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/01/coburn-die-soon-health/
He's a quack whack from Oklahoma owned by Big Pharma from where he gleaned his wealth....Okies are so stupid to think this doofus represents the people.
That idiot Coburn is at it again, this time he filed an amendment to the Senate healthcare bill looking to strip out the $100M Louisiana Purchase/Landrieu bribe.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/70269-coburn-offers-amendment-to-remove-gulf-coast-money-from-healthcare-bill
Oh, and aox, where were you when that moron Grayson said that the republicans' plan was for people to "die quickly." That's right, he's a dem.
Where is he getting his statistics that say we have the best healcare system in the world? From what I have gathered, we have one of the most expensive (often pay double on average per person than other developed countries) and have worse, over all health outcomes.
Quote from: TheArtist on December 03, 2009, 08:35:43 AM
Where is he getting his statistics that say we have the best healcare system in the world? From what I have gathered, we have one of the most expensive (often pay double on average per person than other developed countries) and have worse, over all health outcomes.
Probably somewhere at freerepublic.com
Quote from: TheArtist on December 03, 2009, 08:35:43 AM
Where is he getting his statistics that say we have the best healcare system in the world? From what I have gathered, we have one of the most expensive (often pay double on average per person than other developed countries) and have worse, over all health outcomes.
I'll say this yet again, we do have the best medical technology available anywhere on the planet to anyone who wishes to take advantage of it. Our problem as Americans is: too many take a reactive approach to their health instead of a proactive approach, we eat like total crap, have bad habits, and live sedentary lifestyles. We also subsidize the cost of healthcare and prescription meds in other countries by the rates we pay for healthcare, just like all other foreign aid we dole out.
Check longevity tables by country, then check obesity tables by country. You will find our ranking as an obese country is roughly the inverse of our ranking on longevity.
The idea that we have a crappy healthcare system is the biggest load of bullshit propaganda being slung by entitlement-mentality liberals and their media accomplices you could ever dream up.
If people would take more self-responsibility in healthier lifestyles and better habits, our healthcare system wouldn't have the massive burdens placed on it from heart disease, diabetes, and cancer.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 03, 2009, 11:23:26 AM
I'll say this yet again, we do have the best medical technology available anywhere on the planet to anyone who wishes to take advantage of it. Our problem as Americans is: too many take a reactive approach to their health instead of a proactive approach, we eat like total crap, have bad habits, and live sedentary lifestyles. We also subsidize the cost of healthcare and prescription meds in other countries by the rates we pay for healthcare, just like all other foreign aid we dole out.
Check longevity tables by country, then check obesity tables by country. You will find our ranking as an obese country is roughly the inverse of our ranking on longevity.
The idea that we have a crappy healthcare system is the biggest load of bullshit propaganda being slung by entitlement-mentality liberals and their media accomplices you could ever dream up.
If people would take more self-responsibility in healthier lifestyles and better habits, our healthcare system wouldn't have the massive burdens placed on it from heart disease, diabetes, and cancer.
Well then its interesting that so many "entitlement mentality liberal" places are so often the ones with the most self-responsible, healthy lifestyles? Are people with a certain lifestyle more or less predisposed to think of healthcare as an entitlement? Are there a basic underlying attitudes, habits, etc. for both?
Why is it that the most conservative areas of the US are also pretty much the most unhealthy ones? Look at an obesity map by county, and then the voting red-blue county map, as a for instance. Those who seem to preach the most about personal responsibility and less government actually seem to be the areas that have the most,,, least "personally responsible", people in them.
But, to some extent I think its besides the point that people here "choose to be more unhealthy", our system still costs us more regardless. It does cost us more because we are more sick, but it is also true that part of our being more sick is because it costs us more for medical care, and or people who cant, or dont choose to afford it, dont get the healthcare, (much of it preventative) in the first place. Heaven forbid we let some "entitled loser" get healthcare I the responsible, hardworking taxpayer has paid for,,, when I can pay more for it (they are gonna get attention one way or the other) when they are really sick later?
Reminds me of kids, they are gonna get attention one way or the other, whether it be good attention now, or bad attention later. They are gonna get attention, and unfortunately the "later" attention almost always costs everyone more.
Bad people are that way too, WE, the good people, are gonna have to give them "attention" sooner or later. Whether it be time or money, through government, church, private means, etc. Attention---Entitlement---Whatever lol. We are either all in this together as a society knowing we are going to have to give something,,, or each an island, turning the failures away and telling them to frack off and die, (or at our most generous, admonishing them to "Be responsible or else! and there, we have done our job the rest is up to them by golly lol)
An interesting read, especially each interview section.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/
Coburn wouldn't know the first thing about this bill's impact on Medicare and Medicare, because he didn't accept them as payment in his medical practice in Muskogee. He only takes premium paying customers. It's all about the money, and how much he can make.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 03, 2009, 11:23:26 AM
The idea that we have a crappy healthcare system is the biggest load of bullshit propaganda being slung by entitlement-mentality liberals and their media accomplices you could ever dream up.
If people would take more self-responsibility in healthier lifestyles and better habits, our healthcare system wouldn't have the massive burdens placed on it from heart disease, diabetes, and cancer.
Well, we have the best healthcare system in the world for "the haves" and one of the worst for the have-nots.
Would a "healthier lifestyle and better habits" have spared me from colon cancer?
Please let the one without sin cast the first stone......
http://coloncancer.about.com/od/researcharticles/a/04202004.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090224163555.htm
All I can say is how incredibly lucky I was to have health insurance at the time I first noticed symptoms that could have been anything (hemorrhoids, etc)....... if I had these same symptoms 3-5 years ago, I would have not sought medical attention and would have hoped for the best.
And I'd be DEAD.
If you call my firsthand experiences "bullshit propaganda being slung by entitlement-mentality liberals and their media accomplices," then you're a complete and utterly craven wingnut who doesn't give a "smile" about anybody other than your own greedy, selfish, for-profit-healthcare-uber-alles, head-in-the-sand, anti-gubmint dittohead friends....
Quote from: USRufnex on December 03, 2009, 09:36:44 PM
If you call my firsthand experiences "bullshit propaganda being slung by entitlement-mentality liberals and their media accomplices," then you're a complete and utterly craven wingnut who doesn't give a "smile" about anybody other than your own greedy, selfish, for-profit-healthcare-uber-alles, head-in-the-sand, anti-gubmint dittohead friends....
Translation: "Hey Haves, you must pay for your AND my health care".
I am a "HAVE" right now, dumba$$.
And I was just as good of a person and just as hard of a worker when I was a "have-not."
I have friends/family who have done without health insurance.... and they work full time.
God forbid I mention "workers" --- it makes gweed think I'm a hippy-Stalinist. :P
Quote from: Conan71 on December 03, 2009, 11:23:26 AM
If people would take more self-responsibility in healthier lifestyles and better habits, our healthcare system wouldn't have the massive burdens placed on it from heart disease, diabetes, and cancer.
Yeah, that slug Lance Armstrong and his sedentary lifestyle were totally responsible for his getting cancer. ::)
Quote from: rwarn17588 on December 03, 2009, 10:18:35 PM
Yeah, that slug Lance Armstrong and his sedentary lifestyle were totally responsible for his getting cancer. ::)
Yep, like my mom was responsible for the blunt-force trauma to her head when I was a senior in high school, that racked up $300,000 dollars in medical bills (dad's insurance in 1985 was awesome - Aetna, believe it or not). Had this happened now, they would have cut my dad off and likely he would have had to declare bankruptcy. Lucky for him his total out of pocket expense when it came to my mothers medical bills was not even in the four-figure amount.
You spin me right round, baby right round.... ::)
Quote from: USRufnex on December 03, 2009, 09:36:44 PM
Well, we have the best healthcare system in the world for "the haves" and one of the worst for the have-nots.
Would a "healthier lifestyle and better habits" have spared me from colon cancer?
Please let the one without sin cast the first stone......
http://coloncancer.about.com/od/researcharticles/a/04202004.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090224163555.htm
All I can say is how incredibly lucky I was to have health insurance at the time I first noticed symptoms that could have been anything (hemorrhoids, etc)....... if I had these same symptoms 3-5 years ago, I would have not sought medical attention and would have hoped for the best.
And I'd be DEAD.
If you call my firsthand experiences "bullshit propaganda being slung by entitlement-mentality liberals and their media accomplices," then you're a complete and utterly craven wingnut who doesn't give a "smile" about anybody other than your own greedy, selfish, for-profit-healthcare-uber-alles, head-in-the-sand, anti-gubmint dittohead friends....
The sole point of my post was in response to William bringing up the tired saw of the United States having a crappy healthcare system. It simply does not compute. We don't have crappy quality of health care, we have people with apathetic attitudes toward their health and billing and payment systems which are already a questionable hybrid of a public/government venture that everyone is clamoring for control of and none of them have altruistic reasons to control it. Government doesn't have a profit motive, but those who make the laws of our government do.
Ruf, I understand your particular sensitivity to this issue, it goes without saying. In no way would I ever imply that your experience is propaganda. However, there are many men and women in Congress who are using stories like yours as propaganda, not for altruistic reasons, but to retain power and to please those who keep money flowing into their coffers. They don't really give a crap about your health care or mine, it's a campaign promise- nothing more nothing less. They and theirs are covered by a great health care plan for life once they've been a member of Club 535. Here's the scary part- should a bunch of lawyers and MBA's really be deciding what's best for yours or my health care? I don't think they are qualified to. Tom Coburn knows far more about health care than any other Senator, but even his intentions are questionable on the issue as he accepts campaign contributions.
Not to minimize your experience, but you did find your cancer early enough for a successful outcome so far, yes? Did that result from any action on the part of the government? Likely not, perhaps a reg or two from the FDA on meds you were given at the time and on the equipment used to diagnose you. (Yes, I've had "the hose" twice. Not fun). You are still with us and living a healthy and productive life? You certainly have not skipped a beat with your snark and wit. ;D
Look, I don't care to get into a big schlong contest with you here, but it looks as if I could be getting ready for my fourth surgery in the last 8 years by the end of this month. I also have had two expensive trips to the ER, one of which resulted in a two-day admission as well during that time so I do have a few observations of my own as to how health care is done these days and how it could be improved without government outright stepping in to run it.
One thing I've noticed from my knee surgeries is that I think there are about three extra worthless visits crammed in prior to the surgery than needs be. These were nothing more than cattle calls to up the billing to the insurance company. I know it, my ortho knows it, and the damn insurance company knows this, yet it's an allowable practice. I also question the practice of doctors owning "specialty" hospitals and diagnostic centers separate from their primary practice location. That results in a lot of "steering" and being able to diagnose unnecessary MRI's and other costly tests, simply because they know the benefit payor will pony up. On the flip side, if the government steps in and restricts such tests, people like you might have not gotten the proper screening to find your condition in time.
Take a look at your statement(s) the next time you go to the ER. When I dislocated my right shoulder last spring (I tried to have my next door neighbor set it at first to avoid the cost- bad idea, there was not enough whiskey or Demerol on the block to kill that pain) I had bills from St. John, the anesthesiologist, the radiologist, an orthopaedist, and one or two others I can't remember. It's a feeding frenzy. How many of those people were necessary which were in my room in the ER- no idea, but perhaps insurance companies should take a long look at what they really should pay for with every hospitalization.
Perhaps also, if hospitals didn't have to cover their P & L statements from treating people who had no regard to their health their entire life until some catastrophic $500,000 illness befell them with no insurance, it wouldn't be necessary for people like you and I to pick up the tab via high insurance premiums, high deductibles and a system which allows different specialists to glom on to our case when we are sick. That's yet one more reason we pay more for our healthcare than any other country.
Please don't mis-read this and think I believe anyone should be excluded from health care, that's not my point. My point is, other countries have a far more proactive approach to health which minimizes their dependence on and therefore costs of healthcare. Take a look at all the open air markets with whole foods in other countries which are deemed unsanitary here (amazing, they are countries with longer life spans) those countries have lower incidences of heart disease, cancer, and diabetes- three classes of disease which eat up a lot of private and public resources in our medical community. We consume more processed and preserved foods than any other country. We also eat out a whole lot more which means we put our nutritional needs in the hands of others with virtually every meal. What I'm trying to say is there needs to be a change in attitude on the part of individuals regarding their approach to health that the government can't make a dent in regardless of how much control it assumes of the health care system.
And finally, the most laughable point is that the 30 or 40 million or whatever they make up next week of people without healthcare is total BS. It's there for the taking, health care is already priced to cover the cost of the uninsured and poor on the backs of the insurance companies, cash payers, and the government. If I had no source of income and no insurance and I got run over crossing the BA expressway, I'd get an ambulance ride to the hospital and all the care I needed until healthy again. And if I had a permanent disability from it, I'd be entitled to even more benefits.
Sorry, this argument of the government needing to control all of health care is never going to pass muster with me. They already control a huge chunk via FDA and other regulatory agencies and Medicare/Medicaid and many state-run programs and according to many of you it's a total cluster love now. Can't wait to see what it'd look like with even more intervention.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on December 03, 2009, 10:18:35 PM
Yeah, that slug Lance Armstrong and his sedentary lifestyle were totally responsible for his getting cancer. ::)
What a total mis-read just for the sake of being a smart-donkey and you know it. Yep there are people who through no fault of their own wind up with a catastrophic illness. The sad part is, they pay through the nose because so many resources for people who take a positive approach to their health and wind up in such circumstances get eaten up by those who don't and wound up on dialysis or expensive COPD meds because they wouldn't get off their donkey.
I gave heavily to friends of mine riding Livestrong this year and pedaled my donkey off for MS research and will do two MS rides next year in addition to the Livestrong Challenge. All things which go to help medical research in a way which is a preferable approach than being entirely dependent on the government for funding research. What proactive approach are you making or do you just prefer to contribute snark and half-baked opinion?
Quote from: Conan71 on December 04, 2009, 12:15:14 AM
What a total mis-read just for the sake of being a smart-donkey and you know it. Yep there are people who through no fault of their own wind up with a catastrophic illness. The sad part is, they pay through the nose because so many resources for people who take a positive approach to their health and wind up in such circumstances get eaten up by those who don't and wound up on dialysis or expensive COPD meds because they wouldn't get off their donkey.
You honestly think that even if the country were more physically active and healthier, that people who have a catastrophic illness through no fault of their own still wouldn't be paying through the nose?
If you believe that, I have some oceanside property in Oakhurst to sell you.
Conan, this reminds me of your arguments against the River Tax.
Instead of judging whether the finished product is worthy of your vote, you nitpick the process.
You hate political sausage making. Fair enough.
But I would argue that supporting the status quo in this healthcare debate is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Unfortunately, it looks like Obama's campaign promises on healthcare will be broken. We're gonna end up with a congressional version of mandated coverage for young people in their 20s that will more closely resemble Romneycare and Hillarycare than the healthcare proposals and compromises campaigned on by Barack Obama.
But I will NOT make the perfect the enemy of the good.
Progress is progress, and making blanket statements about "bullshit propaganda being slung by entitlement-mentality liberals and their media accomplices" does absolutely NOTHING to advance the real arguments over access to healthcare and control of costs.
I will trust the cobbling together of Democrat legislation from Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid over the misguided values of Okie conservative elitist class clowns like Tom Coburn and Jim Inhofe.
Argue healthcare policy like a Teabagger; and I'll treat you like a teabagger... :P
Quote from: rwarn17588 on December 04, 2009, 08:27:03 AM
You honestly think that even if the country were more physically active and healthier, that people who have a catastrophic illness through no fault of their own still wouldn't be paying through the nose?
If you believe that, I have some oceanside property in Oakhurst to sell you.
Simple economics. Take away those cases who wind up in the P & L file that the rest of the healthcare rates reflect and health care costs will go down. Every product you purchase is priced throughout the supply chain to account for losses and spoilage. You pay a higher price as a result so that manufacturers, wholesalers, and retailers can turn a profit.
A proactive approach lowers dependence on the system, lowers the proportionate number of non-payors for services, and therefore lowers costs for everyone involved.
How much is that lot in Oakhurst anyhow? Is it next to a meth lab?
Quote from: USRufnex on December 04, 2009, 11:13:32 AM
Conan, this reminds me of your arguments against the River Tax.
Instead of judging whether the finished product is worthy of your vote, you nitpick the process.
You hate political sausage making. Fair enough.
But I would argue that supporting the status quo in this healthcare debate is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Unfortunately, it looks like Obama's campaign promises on healthcare will be broken. We're gonna end up with a congressional version of "mandated coverage" for young people in their 20s that will more closely resemble Romneycare and Hillarycare than the healthcare proposals and compromises campaigned on by Barack Obama.
But I will NOT make the perfect the enemy of the good.
Progress is progress, and making blanket statements about "bullshit propaganda being slung by entitlement-mentality liberals and their media accomplices" does absolutely NOTHING to advance the real arguments over access to healthcare and control of costs.
I will trust the cobbling together of Democrat legislation from Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid over the misguided values of Okie conservative elitist class clowns like Tom Coburn and Jim Inhofe.
Argue healthcare policy like a Teabagger; and I'll treat you like a teabagger... :P
"Cobbled together" is exactly what we don't need. Healthcare is already way too big and deft without even more government internvention. The status quo is preferable to me rather than ramming a bill through within a year just to say it's been done. I also don't like the amount of pork being passed around to make this pile pallatable. If it's worthwhile, it would stand on it's own. If there is a viable, workable solution which improves access (though I still argue access is there for anyone who wants it and there is a mechanism to pay for it) I'm all for change in the system, Ruf. However, the rich are still going to have more options available than anyone. That's just the way it works, right wrong or otherwise.
Perhaps I get a bit alarmed when I hear things like the government saying women should not have mamograms until they are 50. A lot of women have been diagnosed with breast cancer well before they were even 40. I've got two daugters and it runs in my family, so forgive me for having a bad sense of foreboding with more government intervention in healthcare. Next they will say no colon or prostate screening for me until much later.
Sorry, I don't trust people for sale to the highest bidder to have my best health interests at heart, least of all some lawyer from Illinois.
"Teabagger"??? Eeeewww will you libs knock that off? The images...yuck!
BTW- I do respect your stance on the issue because of your experience, but I am entitled to my own differing opinion without someone resorting to name-calling. My experience with the system good and bad would take a very long dissertation none of you would have the patience to read.
My family is every bit as important to me as yours.
And I need them to get colonscopys.
The doc said so.
The first thing I had to do at the front desk at my colonoscopy was to cough up $500.
Before I had surgery, I got a call from St Francis Imaging hitting me up for $500 despite the fact that I had already hit my deductible-- didn't matter to them, though..... I got my $500 back a couple months later.
If we ANALYZED and SCRUTINIZED the private insurance system and its standard business practices with the same zeal that the republicans use against healthcare reform and "government-run healthcare," we would have scrapped our employer-based system years ago.
Oh..... and that lot in Oakhurst rwarn wants to sell you?.... no meth there.... that'd be my apt building that's next door to the meth fire. ;D
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=11377336
Quote from: USRufnex on December 04, 2009, 11:53:23 AM
My family is every bit as important to me as yours.
And I need them to get colonscopys.
The doc said so.
The first thing I had to do at the front desk at my colonoscopy was to cough up $500.
Before I had surgery, I got a call from St Francis Imaging hitting me up for $500 despite the fact that I had already hit my deductible-- didn't matter to them, though..... I got my $500 back a couple months later.
If we ANALYZED and SCRUTINIZED the private insurance system and its standard business practices with the same zeal that the republicans use against healthcare reform and "government-run healthcare," we would have scrapped our employer-based system years ago.
Oh..... and that lot in Oakhurst rwarn wants to sell you?.... no meth there.... that'd be my apt building that's next door to the meth fire. ;D
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=11377336
What??? I thought Oakhurst was in Crank County ;D
Quote from: Conan71 on December 04, 2009, 11:39:17 AM
Perhaps I get a bit alarmed when I hear things like the government saying women should not have mamograms until they are 50. A lot of women have been diagnosed with breast cancer well before they were even 40. I've got two daugters and it runs in my family, so forgive me for having a bad sense of foreboding with more government intervention in healthcare. Next they will say no colon or prostate screening for me until much later.
Sorry, I don't trust people for sale to the highest bidder to have my best health interests at heart, least of all some lawyer from Illinois.
The gov won't keep you or yours from having a mammogram (or a colonoscopy, or whatever). Have as many of those, and as early, as you want. They just won't pay for it. Or will pay you back less for it than they would if you were 50. Or something. And there would always be the opportunity for you to have a private insurer pay for it, or pay you back for it. In neither case will the government actively prevent you from having a procedure.
I still don't understand why you wouldn't distrust the system as it stands, where decisions are made not only by layers and layers of private bureaucracy but with profit margins -- not your health -- as a prime mover.
Here's a great for-instance: for 2010, my employer changed our insurance provider, and after doing some fine-grained math, I was able to determine that I will have $40 more taken out of each bi-monthly paycheck for substantially less coverage for my family. If I'd wanted to upgrade to the only other option my employer offered, I'd essentially have a full 3rd of each bi-monthly paycheck taken out.
Why would they downgrade our coverage so drastically? Well, times are tight, as they are for everyone, and health coverage is a huge expense, as it is for everyone. Caught between falling revenues and ever-increasing health costs, they are doing the only thing they can do, which is pass the problem along to their employees.
In this case, what is the company's option and what are my options? I can choose to go my own way and purchase individual coverage for MUCH more, or I can be uninsured and essentially spin the wheel, and hope that I and my family stay healthy, paying out of pocket for the occasional dr/dentist/eye dr. visit. I can leave my employer and search for another job that might or might not offer better coverage or more money. Of course, we're in a recession and there's no guarantee of finding work at all, much less a job that fits my family's needs.
The company itself is kind of screwed. It really doesn't matter how committed my employer is to offering good benefits to its workers; at some point the double digit price increases year on year will make it impossible for the company not to shed its coverage. A couple bad years for my industry are just accelerating the process.
My point in charting this all out is to say that pretty much every adult has gone toe to toe with this system in some way or another, and that rising prices are a lot more macro than simply being based on a collective failure to eat right and exercise. There're a bunch of moving pieces, and that includes the background noise of the economy at large.
Quote from: USRufnex on December 03, 2009, 09:52:03 PM
I am a "HAVE" right now, dumba$$.
And I was just as good of a person and just as hard of a worker when I was a "have-not."
I have friends/family who have done without health insurance.... and they work full time.
God forbid I mention "workers" --- it makes gweed think I'm a hippy-Stalinist. :P
No jerkwad, it's not about the "workers". Man you are such an idiot. You, not me, brought up the tired "haves" and "have not" bull crap in a previous post once again--which I should have expected since it is your freakin calling card. That, and of course, "gimme gimme gimme".
I am curious, how many people commenting on the subject of health care reform are actually in the delivery of health care and the industry? I am not trying to diminish the opinions of those here not in the industry (or disgruntled patients), I just would like to hear some opinions of those on the front lines.
Coburn and Vitter preventing Democrats from co-sponsoring public option amendment.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/04/coburn-vitter-public-plan/
Senator Dr. Coburn is part of the MIC, no, not that MIC, the Medical Insurance Complex. It is in HIS and his OWNERS best interest to scare seniors to pressure their representatives to vote against reform. Senator Dr.Coburn is a disgrace to the medical profession. He should remember his Hippocratic Oath which says inpart....
"In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients,keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction.......
"If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot."
Senator Dr. Coburn is part of the Medical Insurance Complex........ He should remember his Hippocratic Oath...
Hippocratic Oath? DOH....He thought it was the Hippocritic Oath.
I got off a plane in Dallas on Monday, and as I was waiting for my co-worker near the gate, Tom Coburn walked off the plane and stood right next to me.
I found myself at a total loss for (constructive) words. Everything that came to mind contradicted what I was taught as a child ("If you can't say something nice...").
Quote from: PonderInc on December 04, 2009, 11:44:28 PM
I got off a plane in Dallas on Monday, and as I was waiting for my co-worker near the gate, Tom Coburn walked off the plane and stood right next to me.
I found myself at a total loss for (constructive) words. Everything that came to mind contradicted what I was taught as a child ("If you can't say something nice...").
I am no child,,, I would have said a few choice things.
Quote from: guido911 on December 04, 2009, 04:27:22 PM
No jerkwad, it's not about the "workers". Man you are such an idiot. You, not me, brought up the tired "haves" and "have not" bull crap in a previous post once again--which I should have expected since it is your freakin calling card. That, and of course, "gimme gimme gimme".
(http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/36393136/5257637)
No, you ignorant weath-spooning slut, all I want is for the heavy handed influence of individual wealth and private profits to be significantly taken off the table when it comes to the public's access to healthcare.
Nonprofit Hospitals Need to Earn Their Exemptionshttp://takingnote.tcf.org/2009/09/nonprofit-hospitals-need-to-earn-their-exemptions.html
"If nonprofit hospitals spend far less money on providing charity care for the poor and uninsured than the value of their federal, state and local tax exemptions, do they deserve those exemptions? What about if they turn away indigent patients or hound them with aggressive collection practices?"Provena Hospital makes spirited defense of charity care, tax status to Illinois Supreme Courthttp://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/sep/23/business/chi-biz-provena-hospital-tax-exemption-sep23
"Siegel cited one court case that came before the high court more than a century ago – in 1907 – that involved a Catholic hospital that provided charity care to 5 percent of its patients."Employers don't pay for your kids' education, your taxes pay for universal K-12 public education.
But I guess all those kids going to public schools are "moochers."
And using your Neil Boortz and Michelle Maulkin inspired logic against a small-scale public option in heathcare?..... are all those college students going to state schools in Stillwater, Norman and Tahlequah a buncha socialists? Do they know the "true costs" of their subsidized higher education? ::)
It is not "tired" to talk of "haves and have-nots" when it comes to the current state of our employer-based healthcare system.
It's TRUE.
Repeat the truth often enough, and even some hard right conservatives will at some point begrudgingly agree with you.
Our stories are not "propaganda."
I am a HAVE. My employer's insurance paid for my lifesaving laparoscopic surgery a year and a half ago.
So, I understand the value of cutting edge medical technology and am against anything that would compromise the continuing progression of life-saving medical research. Wealthy people, union members and middle aged men who can't get a woody all contribute to profits in the system that can in-turn be used to finance the next medical miracle..... or the gubmint can subsidize the research, which it currently does through the Natl Institutes of Health and the Natl Science Foundation.......
I paid a few thousand dollars out of pocket, a fraction of the cost of the care I received.
I even got paid a certain fraction of my salary while I was in bed recovering.
I saw the medical bills, I saw what was charged.... and I saw the EXTRA $$$ I had to pay out of pocket when a doctor took advantage of my cancer diagnosis to recommend his own out-of-network physician-owned boutique hospital...... choice, my a$$...
Since my employer has thousands and thousands of employees, the company is able to better absorb the costs than having to rely on small business HSA's and/or a "neighbor's bake sale" and/or my own limited nest egg.... these benefits are able to be used by families of employees, so if I married my sister, she could get a doctor recommended colonoscopy (hmmm, I hear in Arkansas...) ..... otherwise, I guess she's just another member of the "moocher class".....
IMHO, this is MORALLY WRONG. And if there's anything I learned from the young college Republicans back in the Reagan Era, it was the battle cry: "Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything."
(http://news.premiere.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/15/i_now_pronounce_you_chuck_and_larry.jpg)
If I were a socialist, I'd be calling for single-payer socialized medicine.
I am not.
If I were a communist, my employer and all other employers would be turned over to government controlled entities and their politically-minded bureaucrats.
I have never been one of those people.
If I were a capitalist, my employer and most other private employers would have the freedom to be able to buy and sell their products with a minimal amount of government interference.
Yes, I am one of those people. But I believe that self indulgent, laissez-faire, Ayn Rand-style capitalists and dogmatic Grover Nordquist-style anti-taxers are a buncha heartless douchebags.
To me, this means that people who make more money should be able to buy beautiful homes, take overseas vacations and luxury cruises, collect sports cars, and spend their money propping up the local opera company, buying murals from TheArtist, etc, etc, etc.... I even believe that if we're serious about the virtues of capitalism, then we shouldn't be surprised when big employers use their status to leverage local and state governments into giving them a better deal in an effort to bring jobs to those localities. And we shouldn't be surprised to hear the words "early childhood education" coming out of Obama's and Biden's mouths back in the presidential debates thanks to some wealthy guy from Tulsa who was a "bundler" for that campaign.
I am a firm believer that $$$ talks and BS walks..... so, if I want a high level pro soccer team in Tulsa, then I want wealthy people in Tulsa to have enough money to spend on that endeavor if they agree with me.... usrufnex@tulsaroughnecks.com is waiting for your donations and ideas.... don't let Henry Paulson's kid be the only one who gets to have this kind of fun....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merritt_Paulson
But when it comes to healthcare, please spare me the civic virtues of the capitalist profit motive.
It smells funny when y'all's politicians do that.
Quote from: USRufnex on December 06, 2009, 11:24:40 AM
(http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/36393136/5257637)
No, you ignorant weath-spooning slut, all I want is for the heavy handed influence of individual wealth and private profits to be significantly taken off the table and given to me when it comes to the public's access to healthcare.
FIFY. Also, in your last post you said something about having cancer. Gee, that's the first time I have heard that. I mean, it's not as if you are like those persons who keep repeating their unfortunate medical conditions over and over again in the hopes of swaying opinion on a controversial issue through personalization. Really, those people are either self-centered/self-aggrandizing egotists or perpetual pity party throwing complainers who sometimes forget that diseases such as cancer may have taken the lives of fathers and uncles of those in this forum.
Quote from: guido911 on December 06, 2009, 08:23:49 PM
FIFY. Also, in your last post you said something about having cancer. Gee, that's the first time I have heard that. I mean, it's not as if you are like those persons who keep repeating their unfortunate medical conditions over and over again in the hopes of swaying opinion on a controversial issue through personalization. Really, those people are either self-centered/self-aggrandizing egotists or perpetual pity party throwing complainers who sometimes forget that diseases such as cancer may have taken the lives of fathers and uncles of those in this forum.
Yeah, I got colon cancer so I could use it against a freeper in a healthcare debate..... ::)
Pity party?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baBogjn6cAA&feature=related
I don't know which is worse.... Coburn or the cheering crowd who would NEVER GO NEXT DOOR TO HELP WITH THEIR NEIGHBOR'S FEEDING TUBE.
Shame on you. Especially when you have the gall to wear your military service and your politically motivated philanthropy on your sleeve.
You care more about the unborn than the born and living...
Idiot.
I think Gilbert & Sullivan wrote this song about you....
When I was a lad I served a term
As office boy to an attorney's firm
I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor
And I polished up the handle of the big front door
I polished up that handle so carefully
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
As office boy I made such a mark
That they gave me the post of a junior clerk
I served the writs with a smile so bland
And I copied all the letters in a big round hand
I copied all the letters in a hand so free
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
In serving writs I made such a name
That an articled clerk I soon became
I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit
For the Pass Examination at the Institute
And that Pass Examination did so well for me
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip
That they took me into the partnership
And that junior partnership I ween
Was the only ship that I ever had seen
But that kind of ship so suited me
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
I grew so rich that I was sent
By a pocket borough into Parliament
I always voted at my Party's call
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all
I thought so little, they rewarded me
By making me the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
Now, landsmen all, whoever you may be
If you want to rise to the top of the tree
If your soul isn't fettered to an office stool
Be careful to be guided by this golden rule
Stick close to your desks and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of the Queen's Navy
Quote from: swake on December 03, 2009, 07:27:21 PM
Coburn wouldn't know the first thing about this bill's impact on Medicare and Medicare, because he didn't accept them as payment in his medical practice in Muskogee. He only takes premium paying customers. It's all about the money, and how much he can make.
Exactly.
Then he plays the fear card.... liar.
Coburn tells seniors: 'You're going to die soon' if the Senate health care bill passes. http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/01/coburn-die-soon-health/
Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insuranceWASHINGTON (Reuters) - Nearly 45,000 people die in the United States each year -- one every 12 minutes -- in large part because they lack health insurance and can not get good care, Harvard Medical School researchers found in an analysis released on Thursday.http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58G6W520090917
"We're losing more Americans every day because of inaction ... than drunk driving and homicide combined," Dr. David Himmelstein, a co-author of the study and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard, said in an interview with Reuters.
Overall, researchers said
American adults age 64 and younger who lack health insurance have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those who have coverage.-------^^^THIS is the true meaning of "class warfare." Literally.^^^
Franken Double-dares Coburn On Public Option
By Michelle Chen
http://airamerica.com/politics/12-05-2009/franken-double-dares-coburn-public-option/
"As we reported earlier this week, Senators Tom Coburn (R-Okla) and David Vitter (R-La) have cleverly upped the ante in the health care standoff by challenging members of Congress to sign onto the proposed public option health care plan. Their assumption being that, since socialized medicine is so plainly evil, no lawmaker would have the audacity to inflict such a horror upon themselves. Though some conservatives might see this as a chance to bemoan the perils of government-sponsored health coverage, Dan Carter noted that "by the time the new health care proposal is in full effect around 2013, Coburn will be 65 and--you guessed it--basking in the warm glow of a government run, publicly funded plan called Medicare." A perfect example of a seamless transition to a public health plan.
On Friday, Sen. Al Franken said he was willing to take Coburn up on his offer. NewsOK reports:
Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn., said in a speech on the Senate floor that he wants to join Coburn's effort to force senators to join any public plan created by Congress.
"I will have no problem at all enrolling in this plan," Franken said. He said he recently told his wife that they should enroll in a public plan if Congress creates one and that she wholeheartedly agreed.
"So, yeah, I'm perfectly serious about this," Franken said.
Will Coburn show he's every bit as serious as his colleagues across the aisle and walk the talk on health reform? By the time the final vote is cast, we'll know who was bluffing. "
Who is going to let the deadhead pimp our dickhead?
Quote from: USRufnex on December 07, 2009, 07:47:36 PM
Shame on you. Especially when you have the gall to wear your military service and your politically motivated philanthropy on your sleeve.
You care more about the unborn than the born and living...
Idiot.
I caught hel! for repeating my military service on this board just as you are right now. So you can take your shame and stick it somewhere.
In unrelated news, video of usruf as a toddler has been unearthed:
Never quite grew up.
Quote from: guido911 on December 08, 2009, 01:09:11 PM
I caught hel! for repeating my military service on this board just as you are right now. So you can take your shame and stick it somewhere.
In unrelated news, video of usruf as a toddler has been unearthed:
Never quite grew up.
The Psychological Implosion of Our Soldiershttp://www.truthout.org/1207092
You proving All-American boys who would qualify as A1 Aryans are not allowed to get PTSD? Something happened in those daze of trying to train Guido...
And evidently, Doctor No could care less about
our vets your mental health issues....
Quote from: FOTD on December 08, 2009, 01:18:26 PM
The Psychological Implosion of Our Soldiers
http://www.truthout.org/1207092
You proving All-American boys who would qualify as A1 Aryans are not allowed to get PTSD? Something happened in those daze of trying to train Guido...
And evidently, Doctor No could care less about our vets your mental health issues....
Please aox. I cannot see how anyone can buy your over the top righteous indignation over the treatment of our soldiers and veterans. You couldn't care less about them you bloviating coward.
Quote from: guido911 on December 08, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
Please aox. I cannot see how anyone can buy your over the top righteous indignation over the treatment of our soldiers and veterans. You couldn't care less about them you bloviating coward.
Guido? or Coburn's connection?
Quote from: guido911 on December 08, 2009, 01:09:11 PM
I caught hel! for repeating my military service on this board just as you are right now. So you can take your shame and stick it somewhere.
In unrelated news, video of usruf as a toddler has been unearthed:
Never quite grew up.
Funny, I thought that was YOU after Obama got elected and you figured out your tax rates were going back to the Clinton tax code........ thumbody call that thpoiled kid a waaaaaaaaahhhhhbulance. :D
Meanwhile, back on topic....
Other People's Children: The Uninsured and Underservedhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-vander-ark/other-peoples-children-th_b_268941.html