Does the name Emanuel ring a bell?
As in Dr. Ezekiel J. Emanuel, brother of White House Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel. He's one of the close advisor's on health care reform.
Here's a good read up on what allocated healthcare could look like if they rely much on Dr. Emanuel's models.
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/PIIS0140673609601379.pdf
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Where_Civic_Republicanism_and_Deliberative_Democracy_Meet.pdf
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obama-advisor-would-deny-medical-care-to-seniors-demented-51414342.html
Some are summarizing that quality of life care for our older Americans will become a thing of the past, replaced with more hospice-like care which is palliative in nature and is end-of-life. According to models discussed by Dr. Emanuel, the very old and very young will get the least care. Something to look forward to, I suppose.
When you go, get lucky and go quick.
Please do not let this person have any influence over anything:
Anyone care to guess who she voted for last election?
Quote from: guido911 on July 27, 2009, 09:29:11 AM
Anyone care to guess who she voted for last election?
Likely McKinney.
It$ hard to tell who can influence Health $ervice$ in the United $tate$ the$e day$.
Gotta go to the cover of Drudge wherein he examines financing health care reform.
http://drudgereport.com/
Please, please let it be Krugman who is influencing health care reform--certain defeat.
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=GduznzqGaG
This guy won a Nobel prize?
Quote from: guido911 on July 28, 2009, 11:00:29 AM
Please, please let it be Krugman who is influencing health care reform--certain defeat.
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=GduznzqGaG
This guy won a Nobel prize?
Yup! Any change will be incredibly watered-down from what the country really needs.
Will Obama sell out to the healthcare industry?
If all the big industry players get what they want, the country won't get the reform it needsBy Bill Moyers and Michael Winship
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/07/27/health_care_reform/
" As the Republicans fired away, big business stepped up the attack, too, their lobbying and advertising guns blazing. The Chamber of Commerce, for one, announced a major campaign of rallies and print and Internet ads to crush the White House plan for a competitive public option allowing consumers to choose between a government plan and private health insurance. In key states where members of Congress remain on the fence, the airwaves are vibrating with television commercials aimed at shifting hearts and minds away from any change that might threaten profits."
Bill Moyers: Dangerous Alliance of Health Industry and Right-Wingers Will Stop at Nothing to Derail Progressive Reformshttp://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141566/bill_moyers:_dangerous_alliance_of_health_industry_and_right-wingers_will_stop_at_nothing_to_derail_progressive_reforms/?page=entire
"The big drug companies are already so pleased with what they've been promised that they've brought back Harry and Louise -- the make-believe couple who starred in TV ads that helped torpedo the Clinton health care plan -- but this time they're in favor of reform.
According to The Associated Press, the drug industry's trade group PhRMA (the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America) and the drug company Pfizer "reported spending more money than other health care organizations on lobbying in the second quarter of this year" - $6.2 million from PhRMA, $5.6 million from Pfizer.
"Including its latest report, PhRMA has now spent $13.1 million lobbying so far this year. Pfizer has reported $11.7 million in lobbying expenses for 2009."
Bill Moyers is a great Oklahoman.
Bill Moyers is a douchebag, anti-Semetic, crank of the highest order. You have the nuts (hypothetically speaking of course) to rap me for citing Fox News but push this miserable waste of sperm as a legitimate news source? To the point, Moyers is blaming repubs for the problems with Obamacare. Remind me. The House is overwhelming dem and and the dems have a fillibuster majority in the Senate and POTUS is a dem. Yep. Sounds like the repubs have all the power to stop the public option.
Quote from: guido911 on July 28, 2009, 01:41:56 PM
Bill Moyers is a douchebag, anti-Semetic, crank of the highest order. You have the nuts (hypothetically speaking of course) to rap me for citing Fox News but push this miserable waste of sperm as a legitimate news source? To the point, Moyers is blaming repubs for the problems with Obamacare. Remind me. The House is overwhelming dem and and the dems have a fillibuster majority in the Senate and POTUS is a dem. Yep. Sounds like the repubs have all the power to stop the public option.
First, it's dims. Spell it right.
Secondly,
in Oklahoma we have a name for Blue Dog Democrats...we call them Republicans.Third, you're a nut job. Faux news is non believable while PBS and NPR have credibility just like FOTD has balls....
This vet NAILS it:
Oh nevermind, he's just a domestic terrorist threat or something
Quote from: guido911 on July 29, 2009, 11:36:59 AM
This vet NAILS it:
Oh nevermind, he's just a domestic terrorist threat or something
Guido....you can't discern jingoism when it smacks from an apparent non-injured vet? This guys a future rambler for the repiglicans or a lobbyist for the health care industry mafioso.....
Quote from: FOTD on July 29, 2009, 03:26:17 PM
Guido....you can't discern jingoism when it smacks from an apparent non-injured vet? This guys a future rambler for the repiglicans or a lobbyist for the health care industry mafioso.....
I guess I can't discern jingoism. I can discern that this guy has done a sh!t ton more than you to make this a safe country--even for doofuses like you that cannot appreciate that you have the right to speak freely because of him.
Quote from: guido911 on July 29, 2009, 05:10:47 PM
I guess I can't discern jingoism. I can discern that this guy has done a sh!t ton more than you to make this a safe country--even for doofuses like you that cannot appreciate that you have the right to speak freely because of him.
How do you know that? Guesser.
Quote from: guido911 on July 29, 2009, 05:10:47 PM
I guess I can't discern jingoism. I can discern that this guy has done a sh!t ton more than you to make this a safe country--even for doofuses like you that cannot appreciate that you have the right to speak freely because of him.
Once again, the 'holier-than-thou' attitude because you served in the military. It grows tiresome and you know it does yet you continue to use it. I wondered when you'd trot that old method out again.
But you won't respond, will you. Until someone other than I responds.
Quote from: FOTD on July 29, 2009, 05:29:51 PM
How do you know that? Guesser.
Too many cowards in this forum that gravy train off real Americans (vets). Go ahead, call that vet a jingoist (assuming you even know what that means) or any other name you gutless coward. Same goes for any other coward/wuss that posts here and bashes vets and has done NOTHING to keep the country safe. FU and your cowardice. You are a wuss when you pen such crap, and your opinion means nothing.
Quote from: guido911 on July 29, 2009, 10:40:18 PM
Too many cowards in this forum that gravy train off real Americans (vets). Go ahead, call that vet a jingoist (assuming you even know what that means) or any other name you gutless coward. Same goes for any other coward/wuss that posts here and bashes vets and has done NOTHING to keep the country safe. FU and your cowardice. You are a wuss when you pen such crap, and your opinion means nothing.
Anger management is what you need. You have some sort of damage making those haywire accusations.
You should seek better treatment. Have you been making visits to a vet center? Find something constructive and leave the name calling elsewhere. Grow up.
Quote from: guido911 on July 29, 2009, 10:40:18 PM
Too many cowards in this forum that gravy train off real Americans (vets). Go ahead, call that vet a jingoist (assuming you even know what that means) or any other name you gutless coward. Same goes for any other coward/wuss that posts here and bashes vets and has done NOTHING to keep the country safe. FU and your cowardice. You are a wuss when you pen such crap, and your opinion means nothing.
How incredibly predictable. I was hoping you hadn't lost your ad-hominem skills. I see I am correct.
And where are the posts in this thread bashing vets? As much as I hate to say it, FOTD was making an observation or giving his opinion. Didn't see any bashing.
Well, somehow I'm guessing that a former adulterous Speaker of the House doesn't have nearly as much first-hand knowledge as a former Governor or Massachusetts who is a physician and has had to deal with the insurance companies regarding this topic. Good to see Howard Dean speaking up more about this issue.
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/test-5
Who Is Influencing Health Care Reform?
Rick Scott
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ndAyv4BjPbk/Sbp8-koDabI/AAAAAAAAA0k/EICd4Vm9rfo/s400/Picture+11.png)
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Richard_Scott
Dick Armey
(http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ap970727022001.jpg)
http://www.religiondispatches.org/blog/religiousright/1749/lies,_intimidation,_and_the_insurance_industry:_the_republicans_have_lost_their_minds
Wendell Potter
(http://www.prwatch.org/files/staffphotos/Wendell_Potter.jpg)
http://www.prwatch.org/node/8454
Let's not forget that ol' hayseed Sarah Palin:
(http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlLA/original/sarah_palin223.jpg)
Senate is removing the "death panel" provisions
http://tammybruce.com/2009/08/palin-power-senate-removes-end-of-life-provisions.html
LOL.
Listening to Sarah Palin talk about an End of Life provision in the healthcare bill is like hearing Carrie Prejean talk about same sex marriage.
Both are playing in an intellectual kiddie pool; inarticulate advocates for honest positions at best; high profile sockpuppets for conservative activists at worst...
Who was the co-sponsor for the provision that was later characterized to us as the "Obamacare Death Camps?"
Why it was.......... none other than Republican Senator Johnny Isakson, who's original proposal was even HARSHER than what the house adopted....
So Isakson wanted MANDATORY end-of-life counseling?
10:18 am August 14, 2009, by Jay
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2009/08/14/so-isakson-wanted-mandatory-end-of-life-counseling/?cxntfid=blogs_jay_bookman_blog
"...an individual shall not be entitled to, or enrolled for, benefits under part A or enrolled under part B unless the individual has, in accordance with procedures established by the Secretary, provided proof to the Secretary that the individual has in effect an advance directive recognized under State law...the term 'advance directive' means a living will, medical directive, health care power of attorney, advance directive, or other written statement by a competent individual that is recognized under State law and indicates the individual's wishes regarding medical treatment in the event of future incompetence. Such term includes an advance health care directive and a health care directive recognized under State law...."
Cohn reports that the language was watered down in committee only at the insistence of Sen. Barbara Mikulski, a Maryland Democrat."
13.08.2009
Mandatory Death Counseling--Exposed!
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_treatment/archive/2009/08/13/mandatory-death-counseling-exposed.aspx
Well, it turns out there's one element of truth to the conservative charge after all. Somebody in Congress really did propose mandatory end-of-life counseling for Medicare beneficiaries. But it wasn't Obama or one of his allies. It was Johnny Isakson.
Isakson is the Georgia Republican senator that Ezra Klein smartly interviewed late last week. A longtime advocate for end-of-life planning, Isakson is also a member of the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions (HELP) Committee, which passed its own version of legislation last month.
During the interview with Ezra, Isakson acknowledged introducing an amendment like the one in the House bill--and justified it in clear, compelling terms. As for all the recent criticisms, he called them "nuts." (If you haven't read that terrific interview yet, you should.)
But it turns out that Izakson's original HELP amendment would have gone a bit farther than the now-infamous House measure does. Under the House version, Medicare would have to cover the consultation fees of physicians who counsel their patients about end-of-life issues. But the sessions would be purely voluntarily--i.e.,at the patient's discretion. The basic idea is that if a Medicare recipient wants to fill out a living will--and wants a doctor's advice on how to do it--Medicare would pay the doctor for his or her time.
The amendment Isakson introduced to HELP was more aggressive. Under its terms, filling out an advanced directive would have been mandatory for all senior citizens. So if you turned 65 and failed (or refused) to file a living will, you simply wouldn't be able to use Medicare.
-------And so it goes.
Meanwhile, back in the world of reality.....
My grandfather spent his entire working life employed by Ma Bell.
The last big CWA strike in the 80s wasn't for higher wages; it was for health benefits.
And my grandfather was a "have" in our have/have-not system of healthcare......
The doctors told us that my grandfather had weeks, possibly months, left to live.... and he made a decision against chemotherapy; quality over quantity.... but he still lived almost a year afterward.
So, I took a singing job in NYC scheduled for one year after I moved back to Oklahoma... it's hard to make decisions when you are so close to a family member who is dying. Family members who hadn't seen him in a week or two would tell me how much worse he was getting and how bad he looked; I would respond that this is actually a "good day." His pain, nausea, medications, etc etc were at the forefront, and I thank god that I didn't have to deal with the dozens of medical bills/private bureaucracy that were taken care of by his supplemental health insurance... I only saw the receipts/reimbursements, and occasionally made nominal payments for prescription drugs....
I was hoping he would live to see: Thanksgiving... then Christmas... then his birthday... then the birth of a grandbaby... and he did.
To make the conservative political argument that voluntary end of life counseling covered by a public insurance option can be equated to "Obama death camps" is... DEEPLY OFFENSIVE TO ME.
I understand the "slippery slope" arguments against mandatory end of life counseling. But I also understand that many people find these decisions too personal and difficult to simply discuss with other people from your church. You are taught to "fight the good fight" --so you do so until you get to a point where you speak with someone from hospice... I still get breathless thinking about the point in time where I had to read St. John Hospital's little booklet about the "stages of death" and be confronted with stark realities...
I don't want government to make or manipulate a decision that's so intensely personal; but it would be nice if any public insurance option had a way to cover some costs for someone who chooses end of life counseling on a voluntary basis-- and yes, it could save money because of the denial that caregivers and seniors face at the end of life.... so, I want a car wreck, plane crash or brain aneurysm to end it all for me without the messiness, it's simpler that way ;D ...... 7 years after my grandfather's death due to prostate cancer... I myself am a cancer survivor....
To reduce what should be a bi-partisan issue about counseling for end-of-life decisions to "Obama death camps" shows how hyper-partisan the zealous anti-gubmint conservative activists have become: to characterize Obama as a socialist/communist who hates old people?
It's just sick.
Quote from: USRufnex on August 14, 2009, 02:11:01 PM
I understand the "slippery slope" arguments against mandatory end of life counseling. But I also understand that many people find these decisions too personal and difficult to simply discuss with other people from your church. You are taught to "fight the good fight" --so you do so until you get to a point where you speak with someone from hospice... I still get breathless thinking about the point in time where I had to read St. John Hospital's little booklet about the "stages of death" and be confronted with stark realities...
I don't want government to make or manipulate a decision that's so intensely personal; but it would be nice if any public insurance option had a way to cover some costs for someone who chooses end of life counseling on a voluntary basis-- and yes, it could save money because of the denial that caregivers and seniors face at the end of life.... so, I want a car wreck, plane crash or brain aneurysm to end it all for me without the messiness, it's simpler that way ;D ...... 7 years after his death to prostate cancel... I myself am a cancer survivor....
To reduce what should be a bi-partisan issue about counseling for end-of-life decisions to "Obama death camps" shows how hyper-partisan the zealous anti-gubmint conservative activists have become: to characterize Obama as a socialist/communist who hates old people?
Ruf, I'm learning to listen to the media less and read as much legislative hard-copy as possible anymore. I'm having a hard time believing much of what I hear out of the mouths of any DC politicians and their sock-puppets in the media.
I dislike hyperbole just as much as the next person and I have to admit some of the things coming out of the GOP on healthcare ranges from stupidity to shocking with me. However, you do need to realize that the government already has a certain amount of say in end of life care. When you reach the point that your diagnosis is that you are dying, Medicare or Medicaid (if elligible) generally will dictate that any further treatment will be palliative (keep the pt. comfortable) in nature and not some sort of intervention.
Very, very few private insurance companies have a hospice benefit. At least in Oklahoma, about 90% of the hospice pts. are medicare, medicaid, or non-funded which is common amongst younger pts. who don't qualify for any plan at all. Hospice generally does wind up saving the gov't money, but they have very careful guidelines laid out as to how a pt. can qualify. Hospices have a requirement to take non-funded patients as a ratio to their total admits or total daily census, I believe. Pretty much anyone who needs hospice services will get it.
Just like someone with no coverage will get emergency care if they come into the ER soaked in blood.
This is but one reason I'm incredibly skeptical of what they are
really trying to do with "healthcare reform". There are a lot of benefits which already exist out there which are being touted as being a part of this "reform". Reform generally refers to something new or a serious modification.
FWIW- The gal with me the other night was an intake coordinator with a large area hospice for four years. In other words, she was the one that dealt with the patient and their family when it was time to consider that option. I've gotten a very good bird's eye view of that industry and medicare/medicaid, through her knowledge of having to navigate those waters every day. I can empathize with the feelings you had when it was that time to consider with your grandfather.
I really dislike the hypocrisy on what should be a bi-partisan issue.... here's another....
Grassley Voted For So-Called "Death Panel" In 2003
First Posted: 08-14-09 01:10 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/grassley-voted-for-socall_n_259750.html
Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!!
So either Republicans were for death panels in 2003 before turning against them now--or they're lying about end-of-life counseling in order to frighten the bejeezus out of their fellow citizens and defeat health reform by any means necessary. Which is it, Mr. Grassley ("Yea," 2003)?
(http://www.windypundit.com/archives/2008/images/FearCard.png)
***Bottom line: the end of life counseling provision has been taken out of the bill. Guess it will literally save money by not having it covered.... or it could have unintended consequences of causing folks to avoid that end of life "conversation" due to costs and prolong the pain and suffering.... not euthanasia, just reality we're talking about here. After having that "conversation" with hospice, my grandfather passed away within a few days...
So, if a private bureaucrat does it, it's a good thing; if that same person works for a public entity, it's a "death camp?" Who's zoomin' who here?
Quote from: USRufnex on August 14, 2009, 12:57:59 PM
LOL.
Listening to Sarah Palin talk about an End of Life provision in the healthcare bill is like hearing Carrie Prejean talk about same sex marriage.
Both are playing in an intellectual kiddie pool; inarticulate advocates for honest positions at best; high profile sockpuppets for conservative activists at worst...
You are such an abject misogynist. Funny that I cannot recall you ever ripping into Plugs Biden or any other male who truly is a moron the way you go after women.
LOL again.... you play the sexist card just like a liberal. ;D
I'd rather hear Linda Ellerbee's views on same sex marriage and the healthcare debate over simplistic jingoistic arguments emanating from former pageant queens......
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/3460826830_3fe0a94377.jpg)(http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/D/N/2/sarah-palin-swimsuit-photo.jpg)
Although I must admit to being a bit of a sexist since I have no desire to see Linda Ellerbee in swimsuit and high heels.... :P
Quote from: USRufnex on August 14, 2009, 02:56:02 PM
***Bottom line: the end of life counseling provision has been taken out of the bill.
Isakson's (R) amendment is gone? No EOL discussions? Wow. Careful what you wish for, conservatives.
From
AMA (http://www.compassionandchoices.org//documents/EOL_Health_Care_Study_2009.pdf) Study: Health Care Costs in the Last Week of Life:
QuoteConclusions: Patients with advanced cancer who reported having EOL conversations with physicians had significantly lower health care costs in their final week of life. Higher costs were associated with worse quality of death.
Higher costs? Worse death? What's not to love about it! Way to go, Palin!
"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil." -- Sarah Palin
Instead of demonizing her political opponents and throwing red meat to her "base" by yelling the Kafkaesque equivalent of "A DINGO KILLED MY BABY!" in a crowded theater.....what if Sarah Palin had stopped short of questioning the motives of the POTUS and focused her "unintended consequences of government interference" argument on the kinds of end of life counseling mandates that risk the unwitting creation of a cottage industry of "death counseling specialists" ....
My advice to Sarah Palin on how to argue against healthcare reform:
"How about, in honor of the American soldier, you quit making things up?" :P
I know the people residing on planet Wingnuttia will just LOVE this, since you guys just love Barney Frank so much.
I wish more Democratic representatives would stand up to morons like this lady...
Way to go Barney! Where are the other Democrats in this process?
That was a pretty funny smack-down. I just wish he didn't slobber so much when he talks.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 20, 2009, 08:51:10 AM
That was a pretty funny smack-down. I just wish he didn't slobber so much when he talks.
Some things are just more effective with a cleft palate.
Quote from: we vs us on August 20, 2009, 06:52:50 PM
Some things are just more effective with a cleft palate.
"Thuffering Thuccotash!"
(http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Cats/Sylvester.jpg)
Quote from: Conan71 on August 20, 2009, 08:51:10 AM
That was a pretty funny smack-down. I just wish he didn't slobber so much when he talks.
Here's another funny smack-down:
That was a slice of awesomeness, Gweed.
http://sickforprofit.com/
(http://www.ourfuture.org/files/AHIP_chart7.jpg)
It's about time the right learned from the left and unions how to kill a program. They were a little slow but they finally got there. Debating the actual merits of this program does not appear to be part of this thread, for the most part.
Ruf,
Nice flow chart. I didn't know you hung out with Chris Mudschlock.
Who is influencing health care reform? Well, apparently the UAW gravy trainers, which is set to get $10B of our tax dollars under the house bill to bail out their insurance plan:
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090825/OPINION01/908250316/1008/Editorial--Taxpayers-shouldn-t-pay-for-UAW-s-rich-health-care-benefits