I wonder if these were the same clowns that tasered the baby in Oct of 2007?
NORMAN, OK - Bounty hunters forcibly arrested the son of former U.S. Congressman Ernest Istook Tuesday night. Bounty hunters Chris Black and Les Riggs, known as the Bounty Boys, attempted to serve the arrest warrant around midnight.
For about 20 minutes the bounty hunters knocked on the front door and demanded to enter.
They say Istook pretended there was no one home. Istook was wanted in connection with several municipal charges in Norman including failure to appear in court (for shoplifting) and driving under suspension.
After numerous attempts to get Istook to answer the front door, Black and Riggs were forced to bust in. They searched the house for about 30 minutes eventually locating Istook hiding in the corner of the closet of the master bathroom. They say he was hiding with his two dogs.
Last December, Chad Istook was arrested in Oklahoma City for shoplifting.
Quote from: patric on July 09, 2009, 11:42:47 AM
I wonder if these were the same clowns that tasered the baby in Oct of 2007?
NORMAN, OK - Bounty hunters forcibly arrested the son of former U.S. Congressman Ernest Istook Tuesday night. Bounty hunters Chris Black and Les Riggs, known as the Bounty Boys, attempted to serve the arrest warrant around midnight.
For about 20 minutes the bounty hunters knocked on the front door and demanded to enter.
They say Istook pretended there was no one home. Istook was wanted in connection with several municipal charges in Norman including failure to appear in court (for shoplifting) and driving under suspension.
After numerous attempts to get Istook to answer the front door, Black and Riggs were forced to bust in. They searched the house for about 30 minutes eventually locating Istook hiding in the corner of the closet of the master bathroom. They say he was hiding with his two dogs.
Last December, Chad Istook was arrested in Oklahoma City for shoplifting.
Daddy was a lousy congressman but a far worse parent....should have backed off forcing that kid into church.
They can forcibly enter a residence?
Quote from: Nik on July 09, 2009, 12:06:49 PM
They can forcibly enter a residence?
Yes and no. Technically, it carries the same penalties as anyone else kicking in a door and going in a house (breaking and entering). However, it's one of those seldome (if ever) enforced situations. I remember going in after a bounty one time when we had TPD with us. The home owner refused to let TPD search, so they had us go in on our own, and they would wait outside in case something happened.
90% of what bounty hunters do that most people don't, people assume that they can because they are what they are. In truth, a bounty hunter in Oklahoma is just someone hired to go find someone and bring them in for the bondsman. Assumption served us quiet well to get things we needed on a case.
If a bounty hunter appears to be threatening your life, can you use deadly force on them the same as any unknown, unidentifed person who would would attack you?
When it comes down to it, yes. However, keep in mind that if they have announced who they are and their intention, it's going to be kinda hard to prove in the court of law that you were in fear for your life.
Quote from: custosnox on July 09, 2009, 01:10:49 PM
When it comes down to it, yes. However, keep in mind that if they have announced who they are and their intention, it's going to be kinda hard to prove in the court of law that you were in fear for your life.
Well if I shoot one who's busted down my door and they die...then my story goes that some deranged dude with a blonde mullet was trying to kill me and that's why I shot him once in the face and twice center mass.
That's big talk seeing as how I'd probably just be crying and wetting myself.
But then I have a hard time imagining a bounty hunter chasing my butt...I'm too scared of authority for anyone to need one.
Quote from: Townsend on July 09, 2009, 02:50:05 PM
Well if I shoot one who's busted down my door and they die...then my story goes that some deranged dude with a blonde mullet was trying to kill me and that's why I shot him once in the face and twice center mass.
That's big talk seeing as how I'd probably just be crying and wetting myself.
But then I have a hard time imagining a bounty hunter chasing my butt...I'm too scared of authority for anyone to need one.
For the record, I do not have a mullet, and I did not have a mullet when I was hunting. Damn him for screwing up the whole image of the hunter....
Quote from: custosnox on July 09, 2009, 03:43:18 PM
For the record, I do not have a mullet, and I did not have a mullet when I was hunting. Damn him for screwing up the whole image of the hunter....
Screwing it up? He made it awesome!
(http://infidelsparadise.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/dog-bounty-hunter-tv-12.jpg)
I am the DOG. The big bad Doggg!
ps. I might have to have a chat with you about bounty hunters in Oklahoma at some point. I've been kinda curious on how they operate.
Custo, did you use all that tactical gear either? What were you armed with?
no gear. At most, I was armed with a big ole knife, but usually not even that.
And careful saying you might want to chat with me about it, I miss those days and talk about it any chance I get.
Quote from: Red Arrow on July 09, 2009, 01:06:07 PM
If a bounty hunter appears to be threatening your life, can you use deadly force on them the same as any unknown, unidentifed person who would would attack you?
If someone is kicking in my door and I dont see any evidence that there are uniformed police officers proximate, I would be in fear for my life, and I would be preparing to use whatever force is necessary to protect myself and family.
I would see that as no different than a home invasion,
and I would proceed under my understanding of the "stand your ground" law.
Quote from: patric on July 09, 2009, 04:45:13 PM
If someone is kicking in my door and I dont see any evidence that there are uniformed police officers proximate, I would be in fear for my life, and I would be preparing to use whatever force is necessary to protect myself and family.
I would see that as no different than a home invasion,
and I would proceed under my understanding of the "stand your ground" law.
But where the hairs differance comes in is that you are on the run, you know you are wanted, and you know that the bondsman and his people are looking for you to take you to jail. And there is also the fact that most hunters go in guns drawn in that situation and have no real training to know NOT to shoot. This is a large part of why I have always been for licensing bounty hunters.
Quote from: custosnox on July 09, 2009, 05:40:11 PM
But where the hairs differance comes in is that you are on the run, you know you are wanted, and you know that the bondsman and his people are looking for you to take you to jail. And there is also the fact that most hunters go in guns drawn in that situation and have no real training to know NOT to shoot. This is a large part of why I have always been for licensing bounty hunters.
Do you really expect to have some bondsman or his hired gun kicking in your door over a misdemeanor warrant you may not even be aware you have?
Quote from: nathanm on July 10, 2009, 01:12:11 AM
Do you really expect to have some bondsman or his hired gun kicking in your door over a misdemeanor warrant you may not even be aware you have?
When they knock at your door for 20 minutes telling you that they are there to arrest you over a misdemeanor warrant . . . I would suppose so.
Quote from: nathanm on July 10, 2009, 01:12:11 AM
Do you really expect to have some bondsman or his hired gun kicking in your door over a misdemeanor warrant you may not even be aware you have?
You'd know there's a warrant out for you. These guys are collecting for the bail bondsmen, not the court. These are people who are into a bail bondsman for $thousands, not some forgotten speeding ticket from 10 years ago. We aren't talking about parking ticket scofflaws here.
I've ridden with a repo guy before and went to people's homes to collect when I worked in consumer lending many moons ago. It could be an adrenaline rush, especially tracking down a deadbeat who had skipped on us. But from that experience there's no way I'd ever have worked as a bounty hunter. Hat's off to you Custo.
When you sign up with a bail bondsman do you sign away your rights in some way? Is that how they can kick the door in without being prosecuted? How does bonding work?
Quote from: swake on July 10, 2009, 09:39:12 AM
When you sign up with a bail bondsman do you sign away your rights in some way? Is that how they can kick the door in without being prosecuted? How does bonding work?
How it works is basically the bondsman is giving their word that you will be in court, and you are more or less released into their custody. So in a sense, you do sign away a few rights (even though it's usually a loved one that originally signs). If you fail to show for court, then that bondsman is responsible for getting you back to jail.
QuoteI've ridden with a repo guy before and went to people's homes to collect when I worked in consumer lending many moons ago. It could be an adrenaline rush, especially tracking down a deadbeat who had skipped on us. But from that experience there's no way I'd ever have worked as a bounty hunter. Hat's off to you Custo.
I've done my time in the repo buisness, and I swear the people trying to keep you from taking their car tend to be a LOT more aggressive then those trying to stay out of jail. The company I worked for didn't have a single truck that didn't have a bullet hole in it. It was nuts.
Quote from: patric on July 09, 2009, 04:45:13 PM
If someone is kicking in my door and I dont see any evidence that there are uniformed police officers proximate, I would be in fear for my life, and I would be preparing to use whatever force is necessary to protect myself and family.
I would see that as no different than a home invasion,
and I would proceed under my understanding of the "stand your ground" law.
Please pull your head out...It would not matter how you see it, the court would see to it that everything you see from then on would be from behind bars....
Quote from: Breadburner on July 10, 2009, 01:09:30 PM
Please pull your head out...It would not matter how you see it, the court would see to it that everything you see from then on would be from behind bars....
So your solution is that I should open my door after midnight to someone aggressively kicking and pounding on it and just hope for the best?
Quote from: patric on July 10, 2009, 09:07:10 PM
So your solution is that I should open my door after midnight to someone aggressively kicking and pounding on it and just hope for the best?
What else would you expect if you have skipped bail and know you have someone who is going to have to pay a lot of money if you don't go back to jail?
Quote from: custosnox on July 10, 2009, 11:27:18 PM
What else would you expect if you have skipped bail and know you have someone who is going to have to pay a lot of money if you don't go back to jail?
So you are saying that bounty hunters have never made an address mistake.
Quote from: Red Arrow on July 10, 2009, 11:33:29 PM
So you are saying that bounty hunters have never made an address mistake.
If you don't have warrants out for you and you have someone kicking in your door, then shoot first and ask questions later, plain and simple. As far as making address mistakes, I've only known of one time hunters kicked in the wrong door (doesn't mean it hasn't happened a lot more), and because of that it has become very hard to get permission to go onto THA properties to look for someone. Now mistaken identy has happened. Known of one twin that got picked up for the brothers warrents, and I almost grabbed a brother myself once. Looked a lot alike. But, when he told me he was the brother, I started checking The ID.
Quote from: custosnox on July 11, 2009, 12:18:43 AM
If you don't have warrants out for you and you have someone kicking in your door, then shoot first and ask questions later, plain and simple.
As sad as that sounds, it's a lot more rational than acting like a sheep.
These guys have no licensing, accountability or in many cases recognized training, so could they get an address wrong?
Even the "experts" do that with regularity:
Chain of lies led to botched raid
The Atlanta-Journal Constitution
According to federal documents released Thursday, these are the events that led to Kathryn Johnston's death and the steps the officers took to cover their tracks.
Three narcotics agents were trolling the streets near the Bluffs in northwest Atlanta, a known market for drugs, midday on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving.
Eventually they set their sights on some apartments on Lanier Street, usually fertile when narcotics agents are looking for arrests and seizures.
Gregg Junnier and another narcotics officer went inside the apartments around 2 p.m. while Jason Smith checked the woods. Smith found dozens of bags of marijuana — in baggies that were clear, blue or various other colors and packaged to sell. With no one connected to the pot, Smith stashed the bags in the trunk of the patrol car. A use was found for Smith's stash 90 minutes later: A phone tip led the three officers to a man in a "gold-colored jacket" who might be dealing. The man, identified as X in the documents but known as Fabian Sheats, spotted the cops and put something in his mouth. They found no drugs on Sheats, but came up with a use for the pot they found earlier.
They wanted information or they would arrest Sheats for dealing.
While Junnier called for a drug-sniffing dog, Smith planted some bags under a rock, which the K-9 unit found.
But if Sheats gave them something, he could walk.
Sheats pointed out 933 Neal St., the home of 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston. That, he claimed, is where he spotted a kilogram of cocaine when he was there to buy crack from a man named "Sam."
They needed someone to go inside, but Sheats would not do for their purposes because he was not a certified confidential informant.
So about 5:05 p.m. they reached out by telephone to Alex White to make an undercover buy for them. They had experience with White and he had proved to be a reliable snitch.
But White had no transportation and could not help.
Still, Smith, Junnier and the other officer, Arthur Tesler, according to the state's case, ran with the information. They fabricated all the right answers to persuade a magistrate to give them a no-knock search warrant.
By 6 p.m., they had the legal document they needed to break into Kathryn Johnston's house, and within 40 minutes they were prying off the burglar bars and using a ram to burst through the elderly woman's front door. It took about two minutes to get inside, which gave Johnston time to retrieve her rusty .38 revolver.
Tesler was at the back door when Junnier, Smith and the other narcotics officers crashed through the front.
Johnston got off one shot, the bullet missing her target and hitting a porch roof. The three narcotics officers answered with 39 bullets.
Five or six bullets hit the terrified woman. Authorities never figured out who fired the fatal bullet, the one that hit Johnston in the chest. Some pieces of the other bullets — friendly fire — hit Junnier and two other cops.
The officers handcuffed the mortally wounded woman and searched the house.
There was no Sam.
There were no drugs.
There were no cameras that the officers had claimed was the reason for the no-knock warrant.
Just Johnston, handcuffed and bleeding on her living room floor.
That is when the officers took it to another level. Three baggies of marijuana were retrieved from the trunk of the car and planted in Johnston's basement. The rest of the pot from the trunk was dropped down a sewage drain and disappeared.
The three began getting their stories straight.
The next day, one of them, allegedly Tesler, completed the required incident report in which he wrote that the officers went to the house because their informant had bought crack at the Neal Street address. And Smith turned in two bags of crack to support that claim.
They plotted how they would cover up the lie.
They tried to line up one of their regular informants, Alex White, the reliable snitch with the unreliable transportation.
The officers' story would be that they met with White at an abandoned carwash Nov. 21 and gave him $50 to make the buy from Neal Street.
To add credibility to their story, they actually paid White his usual $30 fee for information and explained to him how he was to say the scenario played out if asked. An unidentified store owner kicked in another $100 to entice White to go along with the play.
The three cops spoke several times, assuring each other of the story they would tell.
But Junnier was the first to break.
On Dec. 11, three weeks after the shooting, Junnier told the FBI it was all a lie.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on July 10, 2009, 08:02:23 AM
When they knock at your door for 20 minutes telling you that they are there to arrest you over a misdemeanor warrant . . . I would suppose so.
Even in my small home, there are plenty of places (say, in the shower, which I have been known to spend 20 minutes at a stretch in) I wouldn't be able to make out what someone at my front door was yelling at me, and if someone is yelling at my front door, there's little chance I'm opening it.
The point being that there are plausible circumstances in which one would not know the identity of an intruder despite them yelling at the front door.
The best scenario for the bounty hunter is that I call the police when I hear some lunatic pounding on my front door and they arrest me for failure to appear.
Not that I have any warrants out that I'm aware of, and I have paid all the tickets I've received.
Quote from: nathanm on July 12, 2009, 04:54:12 AM
Even in my small home, there are plenty of places (say, in the shower, which I have been known to spend 20 minutes at a stretch in) I wouldn't be able to make out what someone at my front door was yelling at me, and if someone is yelling at my front door, there's little chance I'm opening it.
The point being that there are plausible circumstances in which one would not know the identity of an intruder despite them yelling at the front door.
The best scenario for the bounty hunter is that I call the police when I hear some lunatic pounding on my front door and they arrest me for failure to appear.
Not that I have any warrants out that I'm aware of, and I have paid all the tickets I've received.
Well, as I said, it's not just having warrents, it's skipping out on bail. But, calling the police would work just as well, since if the bounty hunters play it right, they can still collect the bounty.
Quote
These guys have no licensing, accountability or in many cases recognized training, so could they get an address wrong?
This is a double edged sword. On one side, a bunch of idiots tend to get into the field, on the other, screw up and you could be looking at serious legal trouble, depending on what has happened. That keeps most in line, but not all.
Hard to argue that they shouldn't be licensed somehow. Think about it, you have to be licensed to hand over a document on behalf of the court (process server) but not to kick in a door and kidnap someone. I imagine the more reputable bounty hunters would be OK with it, since it would give them some technical authority.
Then again, it might ruin the "wink wink" arrangement with law enforcement.
I, for one, am all for licensing Bounty Hunters. As it stands, the only law on the books (as far as I can find) is that any hunters out of state must be accompanied by a local bondsman. But your right, I think the "wink wink" arrangement is part of the reason cops like hunters so much.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on July 13, 2009, 08:31:07 AM
Hard to argue that they shouldn't be licensed somehow. Think about it, you have to be licensed to hand over a document on behalf of the court (process server) but not to kick in a door and kidnap someone. I imagine the more reputable bounty hunters would be OK with it, since it would give them some technical authority.
Then again, it might ruin the "wink wink" arrangement with law enforcement.
When police departments redact police reports to cover their actions and identities (as in the case of the baby-tasering incident in OKC) the argument could be made that some sort of double-standard is in place.
Even if I were the king of unpaid parking tickets, I dont see where some self-proclaimed "lawman"
would have any real authority to take me from my home at gunpoint in the dead of night.
Things might change the day they mistakenly try to invade the home of a cop's family and there ends up being a body count. It's just absurd to have something like unchecked bounty hunters in the 21st century.
Quote from: patric on July 15, 2009, 11:25:46 AM
When police departments redact police reports to cover their actions and identities (as in the case of the baby-tasering incident in OKC) the argument could be made that some sort of double-standard is in place.
Even if I were the king of unpaid parking tickets, I dont see where some self-proclaimed "lawman"
would have any real authority to take me from my home at gunpoint in the dead of night.
Things might change the day they mistakenly try to invade the home of a cop's family and there ends up being a body count. It's just absurd to have something like unchecked bounty hunters in the 21st century.
A couple of things on this, is first, bounty hunters in Oklahoma for the most part act on making citizens arrests, in a round about strange way. And as stated before, they don't come after you simply because you have warrants out (if it was that way I would have tossed my ex's in every chance I got).