Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.
"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.
"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.
A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News.
But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.
For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money.
"The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple bible study in their own home."
"The implications are great because it's not only us that's involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of bible studies that are held all across the country. What we're interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."
The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week.
If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
__________________
Only in Kommiefornia....
I wonder if the pastor has a regular church for his services. If not this may in fact be his church operating out of his home. Likely one of the neighbors complained to the county and they had to react if they deduced it was just a de facto church. Can't blame them for enforcing zoning laws can you?
If I have a few friends over to drink margaritas and eat mexican food, I'm not a restaurant. But If it is a regular event with paying customers and I use up the street parking, well, I'm an unregulated restaurant and the neighbors will complain. Perhaps if we just crack a bible and read a bit before we hit the burritos it might be different. :P
Quote from: waterboy on May 29, 2009, 01:49:11 PM
I wonder if the pastor has a regular church for his services. If not this may in fact be his church operating out of his home. Likely one of the neighbors complained to the county and they had to react if they deduced it was just a de facto church. Can't blame them for enforcing zoning laws can you?
If I have a few friends over to drink margaritas and eat mexican food, I'm not a restaurant. But If it is a regular event with paying customers and I use up the street parking, well, I'm an unregulated restaurant and the neighbors will complain. Perhaps if we just crack a bible and read a bit before we hit the burritos it might be different. :P
Guess we better stop having the tuperware parties while we're at it. Don't want to get hit with a zoning ordinance for operating an unauthorized retail shop.
First, the article never mentioned how many a 'few friends' is.
Someone in the 'hood probably alerted the County.
I wouldn't want a minister living next door inviting 50 people over every week.
I've read several articles about swingers that have their 50 person orgy parties shut down for similar reasons.
This story is just intentionally vague to whip the FN readers into a frenzy and they can keep claiming that their faith is under attack.
Can you post a link to that story?
Quote from: PepePeru on May 29, 2009, 01:56:26 PM
First, the article never mentioned how many a 'few friends' is.
Someone in the 'hood probably alerted the County.
I wouldn't want a minister living next door inviting 50 people over every week.
I've read several articles about swingers that have their 50 person orgy parties shut down for similar reasons.
This story is just intentionally vague to whip the FN readers into a frenzy and they can keep claiming that their faith is under attack.
This is true, it does come down to how many are involved, and how often.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html?sPage=fnc/us/crime (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html?sPage=fnc/us/crime)
Fox News and its affiliates are the only ones I can find running the story. And Christian blogs/newsletters.
http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html
this goes into more detail.
an avg. of 15 people.
even then, that could be anywhere from 7-15 cars.
all it takes is one time for a neighbor to have a hard time backing out of their driveway to make a phone call to the City/County.
Quote from: PepePeru on May 29, 2009, 02:13:01 PM
http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html
this goes into more detail.
an avg. of 15 people.
even then, that could be anywhere from 7-15 cars.
all it takes is one time for a neighbor to have a hard time backing out of their driveway to make a phone call to the City/County.
15 people? I have that at my place almost every weekend with the family. The asian family across the street has that almost every day. 15 is not that many, and far from needing zoning for it. Also look at the questions they asked.
'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?'
'Do you say amen?'
'Do you pray?'
'Do you say praise the Lord?'
By these guidlines, everytime my family gathers for whatever (very regular occurance), then we are having a religous meeting.
California is an extremely important political experiment.
I think more of the country would embrace liberal policy without California's example. They have become a sitcom.
They're just going to legislate the crap out of themselves, and we get to watch.
Oklahoma is an extremely important political experiment.
I think more of the country would embrace ultra conservative policy without Oklahoma's example. We are a failed sitcom.
We're just going to legislate the crap out of ourselves, and the whole country gets to watch.
And custo, why is a Tupperware business any different than me running any other retail business out of my home? Call it a "party" or call it retail, zoning laws apply. If I do it with abusive disregard for zoning and parking, I will most certainly hear from the city, county or pissed off neighbors.
Hmmm....ex cot attorney in SD....Franklins Tower from TNF?
LOVE THIS!
Quote from: waterboy on May 29, 2009, 07:12:44 PM
Oklahoma is an extremely important political experiment.
I think more of the country would embrace ultra conservative policy without Oklahoma's example. We are a failed sitcom.
We're just going to legislate the crap out of ourselves, and the whole country gets to watch.
And custo, why is a Tupperware business any different than me running any other retail business out of my home? Call it a "party" or call it retail, zoning laws apply. If I do it with abusive disregard for zoning and parking, I will most certainly hear from the city, county or pissed off neighbors.
My point was, if something like this is going to be restricted because of zoning, then it should fall on everything that is anything remotely like it, such as tuperware parties (which have been around for decades without a single complaint that I'm aware of)
Two points:
1. So, can we assume these regular get 'meetings' would also include: poker night, book club, bridge, Bunco, Red Wings watching parties (I'm confident these are going on all over the place these days), .....
2. The number of cars parked in the street should be a non-issue for anyone. The streets are taxpayer funded, which means I can park everyone of my cars in front of my neighbors house if I want, and he can do the same in front of my house.
Quote from: Wilbur on May 30, 2009, 07:33:00 AM
Two points:
1. So, can we assume these regular get 'meetings' would also include: poker night, book club, bridge, Bunco, Red Wings watching parties (I'm confident these are going on all over the place these days), .....
2. The number of cars parked in the street should be a non-issue for anyone. The streets are taxpayer funded, which means I can park everyone of my cars in front of my neighbors house if I want, and he can do the same in front of my house.
I'm glad you're not one of my neighbors! Seriously, if you follow those arguments, what good is zoning? If your poker night, book club, bridge, bunco and sports parties are part of a tax exempt church organization that is using your taxpayer funded streets as its own parking lot, then yeah, that ain't right. He's using his neighbors taxes to fund his church operations.
There are 11 addresses on my block. Being generous, two cars could park in front of them (22 total spots). Currently, 7 of us park on the street (teenagers, second cars etc). That leaves 14 spots from full capacity. We share those spots with visiting company, a nearby grade school and real (non profit) get togethers you described. Cramming in 15 cars every Wednesday and Sunday for someone's church would not be suffered lightly.
The guy needs to get donations and build a church or meet in a nearby school or something.
Quote from: waterboy on May 30, 2009, 07:51:48 AM
There are 11 addresses on my block. Being generous, two cars could park in front of them (22 total spots). Currently, 7 of us park on the street (teenagers, second cars etc). That leaves 14 spots from full capacity. We share those spots with visiting company, a nearby grade school and real (non profit) get togethers you described.
Depending on where you live, you also share those parking spots with 390,000 other Tulsans.
There is no law that says curb parking in front of your house belongs exclusively to you.
City streets belong to everyone, not just you.
That's certainly true but dodges the issue of a tax exempt church using our tax paid streets as a parking lot for their church.
We used to have a nearby denturist who used our parking for his employees so that the parking in front of his facility could be saved for his customers. So all day long we provided his company parking. Here's how we dealt with that. We asked that he not tie up all of our street for his personal gain and he responded similarly to what you did. So, we parked our cars in front of his business as often as possible and as long as possible. Our sprinkler systems came on as he and his employees got off work. We mowed our lawns so that dust and grass were thrown onto his cars. Often times their little pickup trucks would serve as trash cans for the neighborhood. Finally, someone asked the city to place no parking signs with time limitations so at least the parents could pick up their children without dealing with his defacto parking lot.
It worked. His arrogance and self interest were rewarded with inconvenience. He was forced to deal with the lack of parking for his business and moved out.
Quote from: Wilbur on May 30, 2009, 10:04:00 AM
There is no law that says curb parking in front of your house belongs exclusively to you.
As a shared resource, it's quite rude to monopolize. That said, I don't have a driveway to park in, so maybe I'm biased.
Quote from: waterboy on May 30, 2009, 12:11:47 PM
That's certainly true but dodges the issue of a tax exempt church using our tax paid streets as a parking lot for their church.
Churches don't park anywhere. People do. Those people pay their taxes, so can park on "your" tax paid street. I live near LaFortune, but you don't hear me bitching because people park in front of my house and go watch their kids play ball. It's just part of city life. Don't like it move to the country.
Quote from: waterboy on May 30, 2009, 12:11:47 PM
He was forced to deal with the lack of parking for his business and moved out.
But wait... I thought big parking lots were a
really bad thing. Trendy places are supposed to have insufficient parking. It's the wave of the future. This forum has had entire threads on parking lots that are too big. :)
Quote from: jiminy on May 31, 2009, 08:17:40 PM
Churches don't park anywhere. People do. Those people pay their taxes, so can park on "your" tax paid street. I live near LaFortune, but you don't hear me bitching because people park in front of my house and go watch their kids play ball. It's just part of city life. Don't like it move to the country.
That's weak spin. The church invited people to his home to worship. Even if they walked to his home he is abusing zoning laws and trying to pass it off as religious intolerance. Your argument is analagous to the denturist saying his employees decided on their own to park on city streets. People have parked in front of my home to pick up their children daily for the last 30 years without incident and I've lived in the city my whole life so don't preach your "tolerance" to me. Its the abuse of the privilege we're talking about here.
If they weren't blocking the street there should be no problem. Basically he has an a**hole neighbor that complained so they have to enforce whatever rules the city has. If nobody called them in the city would have nothing to do with it. Can we move on?
So how many members does it take before it is too many to be run out of a house?
Clearly many think 15-20 is too low. 25? 30? Can I run a church out of my house that has 50 members in regular attendance?
Lets clarify the issue: Is the disagreement with this ordinance that it exists at all or that the number is too low? Also, if they were restricting the regular gathering for some other purpose - would you care?
Also on point, it is distinguishable from a family gathering or a Tupperware party. There is no zoning for "family gatherings," you can not violate city ordinances by having too many family members over for dinner (though, if you did so weekly and neighbors complained some sort of complaint could be lodged). There are, however, zoning restrictions for churches, homeless shelters, food banks, schools, day cares, art galleries/workshops, gardens, garage sales, car sales, other small businesses, etc. All things that people can (and do) operate out of their homes. But when they get to a certain size they are in violation of ordinances.
If someone had a poker night that drew an average of 15 people if would be in violation of city ordinances (as well as Federal and State law). Tupperware parties are commercial endeavors and are restricted in their scale and frequency. Garage sales are restricted in their frequency (as are home car sales). If you had Monday night football parties at your house every Monday night with 15 people in attendance and a neighbor complained, you would probably get a visit from the city (call it a noise or disturbance complaint).
I understand the nature of the complaint, but religious groups are not entitled to any special treatment. Apparently in San Diego groups of 15+ or more assembled for religious purposes require a permit in the area this meetings are taking place. Find a church basement, a community park, or other meeting places.
- - -
Finally, in our fair and pious city of Tulsa, a residential zoning does not bring with it the right to use your property for "community services or similar usage." You must apply for a special exception. And a "place of worship" is a separate facility from a home.
QuotePlace of Worship: A facility or facilities used by persons to regularly assemble, attend,
observe, participate in or hold religious services, meetings, rituals, and other related
activities in reverence or veneration to a supernatural power, including but not limited
to a church, chapel, mosque, synagogue, temple and similar facilities.
Definitions. Title 42 of the Tulsa City Ordinances. (Tulsa ordinances can be found here: http://www.cityoftulsa.org/our-city/ordinances.aspx. True citations are cumbersome and not very helpful since you can not look up by citation. You can, however, search inside the document.)
The situation at hand seems to fit this description. A group of 15 people regularly meet to venerate and study a supernatural power. Thus, it is a place of worship.
A "place of worship" is permitted (and encouraged) in a residential neighborhood. But they have to meet certain permitting criteria (occupancy, safety, parking). A "place of worship" and a "dwelling unit" are different places by definition and have different zoning requirements. Like a school, college, day care, or a museum (a whole list of things), at a certain point they can no longer operate out of a residential setting without a special exception. By the above definition, a regular meeting of 15 people would qualify.
To be classified as a Place of Worship legally there are several specific restrictions (in addition to commercial safety/parking/fire code requirements) including:
Quote1. Places of Worship when located within an AG or R District [agricultural or residential]:
a. Minimum lot area of one acre and minimum lot width of lOO feet.
b. No parking shall be permitted within a required front yard.
You also need parking specific to a place of worship of 1 parking spot per 3 seats. Since 15 is average, we shall assume more often attend. But we know a minimum of 5 off street parking spots is required (assuming they have a 1 acre lot and meet the other safety/fire issues).
So need to complain about this happening in San Diego, the zoning here in Tulsa would allow a neighbor to complain about the improper use of a residential dwelling unit in much the same way.
- - -
And finally, would I complain about it? No. I don't think I would. But would it surprise me if some neighbor did complain about a gathering of 15+ people on a weekly basis for any purpose? No. I would expect someone to get annoyed at it fairly quickly.
This deal in San Diego seems pretty weak trying to call this a church gathering if it's only 10 to 15 people showing up every week. Even if people are chipping in a few dollars to help defray the cost of food, I don't see how the county could call it a "church". If 200 people were coming every week, I'd be more skeptical of it being claimed as a Bible study.
Where I draw the line is when there's a blatant commercial enterprise going on in a residential area. If it's truly a Bible study, San Diego is over-reaching. I agree with Waterboy that if there's a business in the midst of a residential area, like he described, they need to be good neighbors or get a space somewhere with more parking that does not create problems for neighbors.
Anyone else notice on Yale between 21st & 31st there's two houses along the west side of the street that have a "big sale" every weekend? I seriously doubt these people have proper permits to do this. If they want to be in the retail business, they need to lease some space in one of the shopping centers to the north or south of the area. I also get real irritated with neighbors who use the street to store un-used cars. My understanding is, so long as the tag is up to date and all tires are aired up, there's nothing to keep someone from parking a derelict car on a street for 10 years.
"Clearly many think 15-20 is too low. 25? 30? Can I run a church out of my house that has 50 members in regular attendance? "
I think this should be determined by the Fire Marshall. And no fire marshall has ever set a limit of less than 15 people allowed in a home - most elevator cars will supposedly hold close to 15 people.
This smacks of infringment on the "right to peacably assemble". Zoning laws that go too far or are enforced selectively could be very well be stricken down by the high courts. I'm assuming that this guy lives in the home and pays property taxes. If so, he should be allowed to do pretty much anything that is otherwise legal, safe, and does not create an unreasonable nusiance -not as the primary function of the property, but at least for 1 or 2 hours per week. If these people were walking to the meetings (which some above poster still had a problem with) or not creating undue parking issues then there shouldn't be any valid issues here. Its not like he is slaughtering chickens, manufacturing dangerous substances, or even running a for-profit 9 to 5 weekday business out of the home.
Now if he just bought a house in the middle of a neighborhood and decided to use it solely as a church building, not even living in it, I could see the legal zoning issues there, especially if the home was owned by the church and therefore exempt from property taxes.
But in most areas it wouldn't be that hard to get a variance. Most of the churches in Tulsa (except for the megachurches) are right in the middle of neighborhoods and right next door to single family homes on every side. Street overflow parking is common and tolerated for a few hours every week. Sometimes nearby homes are purchased by the church for parsonages or classroom space and Tulsa County has never had a problem with this.
Quote from: waterboy on May 31, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
That's weak spin. The church invited people to his home to worship. Even if they walked to his home he is abusing zoning laws and trying to pass it off as religious intolerance. Your argument is analagous to the denturist saying his employees decided on their own to park on city streets. People have parked in front of my home to pick up their children daily for the last 30 years without incident and I've lived in the city my whole life so don't preach your "tolerance" to me. Its the abuse of the privilege we're talking about here.
Everything you have posted so far looks to me that you area assuming that this pastor does not have a church and uses his house as a defecto worshiping hall. Everything I have seen, according to the pastor, this is a gathering to learn more on their gathering and have a meal together with some of those that tend his church. Which makes this no differant then the guys from work gathering every saturday night for poker, or sunday for football.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 01, 2009, 10:08:02 AM
This deal in San Diego seems pretty weak trying to call this a church gathering if it's only 10 to 15 people showing up every week. Even if people are chipping in a few dollars to help defray the cost of food, I don't see how the county could call it a "church". If 200 people were coming every week, I'd be more skeptical of it being claimed as a Bible study.
Where I draw the line is when there's a blatant commercial enterprise going on in a residential area. If it's truly a Bible study, San Diego is over-reaching. I agree with Waterboy that if there's a business in the midst of a residential area, like he described, they need to be good neighbors or get a space somewhere with more parking that does not create problems for neighbors.
Anyone else notice on Yale between 21st & 31st there's two houses along the west side of the street that have a "big sale" every weekend? I seriously doubt these people have proper permits to do this. If they want to be in the retail business, they need to lease some space in one of the shopping centers to the north or south of the area. I also get real irritated with neighbors who use the street to store un-used cars. My understanding is, so long as the tag is up to date and all tires are aired up, there's nothing to keep someone from parking a derelict car on a street for 10 years.
We have a perenial garage sale in my neighborhood as well with signs touting: New Stuff every week!
That is a retail business and as such should have a special exemption for use in a zoned residential area and should remit sales taxes to the appropriate entities.
Quote from: carltonplace on June 01, 2009, 11:23:00 AM
We have a perenial garage sale in my neighborhood as well with signs touting: New Stuff every week!
That is a retail business and as such should have a special exemption for use in a zoned residential area and should remit sales taxes to the appropriate entities.
Sales taxes generally aren't charged twice on the same item - only once when it was originally "consumed" by the initial end purchaser. Used items aren't taxed again unless additional value has been added. Now if they are selling new items they bought tax exempt for resale, then sales tax should be charged. They should also pay income tax on their profits if they are selling used or new items for more than they bought them for - but that is an IRS issue, not a local or zoning issue.
Quote from: bbriscoe on June 01, 2009, 11:50:01 AM
Sales taxes generally aren't charged twice on the same item - only once when it was originally "consumed" by the initial end purchaser. Used items aren't taxed again unless additional value has been added. Now if they are selling new items they bought tax exempt for resale, then sales tax should be charged. They should also pay income tax on their profits if they are selling used or new items for more than they bought them for - but that is an IRS issue, not a local or zoning issue.
I don't think consignment and re-sale shops are tax-exempt. You'll pay sales tax if you buy antiques from an antique store in Oklahoma if they are operating legally.
Quote from: bbriscoe on June 01, 2009, 11:50:01 AM
Sales taxes generally aren't charged twice on the same item - only once when it was originally "consumed" by the initial end purchaser. Used items aren't taxed again unless additional value has been added.
The state changes the title to "Use Tax" when bringing in used autos and airplanes (don't know about boats, RVs or others) into the state. It equals the state sales tax. Oklahoma is not alone in charging sales tax on large ticket used items.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 01, 2009, 10:08:02 AM
This deal in San Diego seems pretty weak trying to call this a church gathering if it's only 10 to 15 people showing up every week. Even if people are chipping in a few dollars to help defray the cost of food, I don't see how the county could call it a "church". If 200 people were coming every week, I'd be more skeptical of it being claimed as a Bible study.
My uncle's first church (he's an ordained Baptist pastor) only had around 15 folks in regular attendance.
Quote from: waterboy on May 31, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
That's weak spin. The church invited people to his home to worship. Even if they walked to his home he is abusing zoning laws and trying to pass it off as religious intolerance. Your argument is analagous to the denturist saying his employees decided on their own to park on city streets. People have parked in front of my home to pick up their children daily for the last 30 years without incident and I've lived in the city my whole life so don't preach your "tolerance" to me. Its the abuse of the privilege we're talking about here.
Man, it absolutely IS religious persecution if we are saying that sports-watching parties and orgies are ok, but God forbid a group of people from a church gather at the home of the pastor for fellowship and *gasp* prayer. No way can you justify allowing street-parking for anything but Bible studies. That said, if the group meets weekly (or oftener) the pastor should consider periodically rotating the hosting amongst other members of the group. That would be the neighborly thing to do.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 01, 2009, 09:17:39 AM
Finally, in our fair and pious city of Tulsa, a residential zoning does not bring with it the right to use your property for "community services or similar usage." You must apply for a special exception. And a "place of worship" is a separate facility from a home.
Definitions. Title 42 of the Tulsa City Ordinances. (Tulsa ordinances can be found here: http://www.cityoftulsa.org/our-city/ordinances.aspx. True citations are cumbersome and not very helpful since you can not look up by citation. You can, however, search inside the document.)
Quote
Place of Worship: A facility or facilities used by persons to regularly assemble, attend,
observe, participate in or hold religious services, meetings, rituals, and other related
activities in reverence or veneration to a supernatural power, including but not limited
to a church, chapel, mosque, synagogue, temple and similar facilities.
The situation at hand seems to fit this description. A group of 15 people regularly meet to venerate and study a supernatural power. Thus, it is a place of worship.
I disagree. I think the meaning is regarding the primary use of the facility. e.g. There's a number of "work life" groups where I work that meet regularly, including a Christian group. That does not make my work site a place of worship.
Quote from: jiminy on June 01, 2009, 06:29:32 PM
There's a number of "work life" groups where I work that meet regularly, including a Christian group. That does not make my work site a place of worship.
Sure it does. Your work is a place of business and a place of worship. (I'd argue that almost all places of worship are also places of business, but that's not really germane to the subject)
My (public) high school was also both.
Now, which is the primary use and whether the use being conforming or not depends on the structure's primary or secondary use depends on the law, but you can't say that a place is not a place of worship merely because other activities are conducted on the grounds. By that definition few churches would qualify as places of worship.
A megachurch I used to live down the street from was a school, day care, entertainment venue, sports complex, and a church. Ironically, it is used as a church fewer hours a week than any other use. That doesn't make it not a church. If it does, I'm sure the city and county would be pleased to hear this, as there are tens of millions of dollars worth of taxable improvements on that land!
Anyway, I think that religious use should be treated no differently than any other use. If it's legal to have 15 of your buddies over on a weekly basis to watch football, play baggo, or whatever else, it should be legal to have a bible study group. It seems some would like the religious use to be more tolerated than other uses.
Do keep in mind that many things that are not legal are not prosecuted simply because few cities have code enforcement officers patrolling every square inch of a city on a daily basis. Code enforcement is primarily complaint driven.
was cruising snopes and came across this and thought I would share it
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/biblestudy.asp