Ok guys n' gals, I think we're smart enough to solve this. We've had something like 53 meth lab fires resulting in millions and millions of dollars in damage, injuries, and death.
So. . . Lets look at some facts about meth?
1. $10 worth of ingredients yields hundreds of dollars worth of product.
2. The process is hazardous, but that makes it easy to identify. People in these apartments when questioned said they smelled chemicals.
3. Most of the folks in communities friendly to meth are also willing to do just about anything for money.
4. Meth fires are expensive to the city and private property.
Need we go any further?
Possible Solution:
1. Contact Oklahoma Outdoor Advertising or one of the other billboard companies and ask if they would like to get some free publicity by being part of the solution and donating some ad space.
2. Post (on billboards around town, perhaps between ads on the electronic billboards, or on vacant billboards) a reward of $3,000 for any tip leading to the discovery of a meth lab or the arrest of a meth cook. $3,000 is a small investment if it eliminates hundreds of thousands of city dollars in emergency response or a host of other expenses. Perhaps a good Tulsa company like QuickTrip could donate the reward money.
3. Sit and wait by phone with a pen and notepad.
4. Take notepad with meth labs to Tulsa Police Meth Response team (or whatever it's called).
5. Visit meth labs. "Knock, knock. . .CANDYGRAM!"
6. Arrest meth cooks, clean up hazard, distribute reward money, save lives, save property.
7. Paranoia (or at least more paranoia than normal) sets in, and meth cooks move out of Tulsa.
More ideas?
You would have to assure the highest level of untraceable anonymity, otherwise someone might value their own life (fear of retaliation) more than the $3,000 offer to be a NARC.
I agree though, something must be done, it seems to be getting worse every day.
Quote from: YoungTulsan on April 01, 2009, 08:59:01 PM
You would have to assure the highest level of untraceable anonymity, otherwise someone might value their own life (fear of retaliation) more than the $3,000 offer to be a NARC.
I agree though, something must be done, it seems to be getting worse every day.
A big part of doing something is either getting a national policy regarding cold meds that mirrors Oklahoma's, since most of the bordering states don't have any (which is why the spike in meth labs in Tulsa, but not OKC because Missouri doesn't have the law and possibly Kansas also), or get the bordering states on board. Right after the Oklahoma policy was enforced, the amount of labs went down drastically. Now that they have figured out that they can drive 2 hours to Joplin they'll do so.
Instead of $3,000 offer them a Big Screen, A Wii, and a 24 pack of Milwaukee's Best.
Quote from: Hoss on April 01, 2009, 09:23:06 PM
A big part of doing something is either getting a national policy regarding cold meds that mirrors Oklahoma's, since most of the bordering states don't have any (which is why the spike in meth labs in Tulsa, but not OKC because Missouri doesn't have the law and possibly Kansas also), or get the bordering states on board. Right after the Oklahoma policy was enforced, the amount of labs went down drastically. Now that they have figured out that they can drive 2 hours to Joplin they'll do so.
From what I have seen on the news,, they have now figured out a way to make meth that doesnt require cold meds. Its now even cheaper and quicker to make than ever,,, but more dangerous. Thats why we are once again seeing an uptick in use and in fires. Next idea....
Good thoughts Gaspar.
As I understand it the "single bottle" method of cooking meth basically creates small bombs. If you have the proportions wrong the bottle over pressurizes and explodes. The sudden decompression causes the chemicals to reaction and heat up . . . or so the internet has told me (perfectly open to correction). If it is done "right," there should be little chemical odor.
One thing you have to be careful of in a NARC proposal is to not make it into the Gestapo. A neighbor's anonymous tip for cash is probably NOT grounds to search an apartment. Grounds to knock on the door and say something, perhaps. Which might be enough to scare them off but won't get anyone reward money.
The method needs to reinforce the community, not create an "us vs. them" feel within it. Perhaps the proposal as it stands would not be a problem. But that would be my concern.
Also, if the very real potential of having a meth cook living next door and a good chance of having everything you own and your loved ones burned isn't incentive enough to report it, I have concerns that cash will help the problem much. But I applaud the effort. I'll let you know IF I come up with something better.
So are the fires the result of this new "shake-n-bake" method of making it?
I never understood the point of taking something which would keep me "up" for days. I enjoy sleep too much to do something that stupid.
Quote from: Hoss on April 01, 2009, 09:23:06 PM
A big part of doing something is either getting a national policy regarding cold meds that mirrors Oklahoma's
The last thing we need is to expand the war on sick people. I couldn't buy a pack of Sudafed and a bottle of Nyquil the other day. It pissed me off to no end.
I don't mind making the pharmacies keep the psuedoephedrine products behind the counter. I don't even mind purchase limits. I do mind the ridiculously low purchase limits we have here. I guess just hope your entire family doesn't get sick at once? And hope you don't get sick soon if you're kind enough to go buy somebody else some Sudafed because they're sick. (Phenylephrine is useless, IMO)
Quote from: nathanm on April 02, 2009, 10:26:03 AM
The last thing we need is to expand the war on sick people. I couldn't buy a pack of Sudafed and a bottle of Nyquil the other day. It pissed me off to no end.
I don't mind making the pharmacies keep the psuedoephedrine products behind the counter. I don't even mind purchase limits. I do mind the ridiculously low purchase limits we have here. I guess just hope your entire family doesn't get sick at once? And hope you don't get sick soon if you're kind enough to go buy somebody else some Sudafed because they're sick. (Phenylephrine is useless, IMO)
I find it quite stupid that I can only by a 15 day pack of Claritin D every 30 days. The limit should be raised to match some of the drugs 30 day limits. I guess somebody needs to come up with a drug that uses human snot, then we can have our 30 days of allergy medication without having to get family members to go buy for you.
Quote from: nathanm on April 02, 2009, 10:26:03 AM
(Phenylephrine is useless, IMO)
FDA is looking into it to:
Quote
Pharmacists Leslie Hendeles and Randy Hatton of the University of Florida suggested in 2006 that oral phenylephrine is ineffective as a decongestant at the 10 mg dose used, claiming that six tests showed no significant difference between phenylephrine and placebo.
http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_FDA_Calls_for_New_Studies_of_Phenylephrine_Dosage_11846.html
Quote from: Hoss on April 01, 2009, 09:23:06 PM
A big part of doing something is either getting a national policy regarding cold meds that mirrors Oklahoma's, since most of the bordering states don't have any (which is why the spike in meth labs in Tulsa, but not OKC because Missouri doesn't have the law and possibly Kansas also), or get the bordering states on board. Right after the Oklahoma policy was enforced, the amount of labs went down drastically.
Meth labs didnt go down drastically, meth "busts" did, and made it look like The War On Cold Medicine was the answer. Now were beginning to suspect otherwise.
If we put just a fraction of these resources into drying up demand rather than supply we would see true, long-term results. Right now were just going from photo-op to photo-op.
It's time to re-think drug laws, and not place the same (or more) effort on drugs that have no true detriment to society as ones that are racking up weekly death tolls.
For instance, the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs is on record saying "more lives ruined by marijuana than any other drug" which seems very much out of touch with what we are seeing in real life.
This just keeps our resources running in circles, and feeding that $50 Billion Interdiction industry.
Before we can move forward, we have to get our priorities straight.
Quote from: nathanm on April 02, 2009, 10:26:03 AM
The last thing we need is to expand the war on sick people. I couldn't buy a pack of Sudafed and a bottle of Nyquil the other day. It pissed me off to no end.
I don't mind making the pharmacies keep the psuedoephedrine products behind the counter. I don't even mind purchase limits. I do mind the ridiculously low purchase limits we have here. I guess just hope your entire family doesn't get sick at once? And hope you don't get sick soon if you're kind enough to go buy somebody else some Sudafed because they're sick. (Phenylephrine is useless, IMO)
Agree!
For some reason people think that restricting freedom solves problems.
Never has, never will.
Meth is illegal, and the manufacture of meth is illegal. New laws restricting the common ingredients do little to stem the problem.
Several different chemicals can be used in the manufacture of the product, but they usually result in the same by products and aromas. Heavy ammonia and hydroxide aromas (if you are not familiar with hydroxide aroma it is something like ivory soap multiplied 100 times).
Even the shake and bake method results in strong a strong ammonia smell, it's just not as strong as a ventilated lab creates.
Additionally, the cooks are usually users or surrounded by users, and meth-heads are very easy to spot, they are not very functional, and develop ticks and other outward signs of use. It is probably the easiest abuse to spot in a person, very much like PCP. Over time it burns out the brain's ability to produce Seritonin. The user (when not under the influence) can be compared to the walking dead, or you and I after three days without sleep. They also become very paranoid bordering on psychosis.
So, the manufacture is simple to spot, and the users are easy to identify, and neighbors are willing to turn them in for a reward, then we have a workable solution.
We need a good "shock and awe" series of busts to make the roaches scurry.
Quote from: Trogdor on April 02, 2009, 10:48:49 AM
I guess somebody needs to come up with a drug that uses human snot, then we can have our 30 days of allergy medication without having to get family members to go buy for you.
Research has already begun.(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zImu5bbtRNE/SZHr4N9PPeI/AAAAAAAAAU4/40BWX6GtOJw/s400/_david_beckham_snot_rocket.jpg)
I keep clicking on the thread thinking I'll learn how to build an online meth lab.
Quote from: sgrizzle on April 03, 2009, 10:24:11 AM
I keep clicking on the thread thinking I'll learn how to build an online meth lab.
Not surprising. Your substance abuse issues are legendary.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 03, 2009, 12:15:41 PM
Not surprising. Your substance abuse issues are legendary.
I finally kicked my habit of licking the glue on the back of Post-Its.
Umm, thats not glue. See image on previous page...
Quote from: Gaspar on April 01, 2009, 04:40:35 PM
$10 worth of ingredients yields hundreds of dollars worth of product.
For someone laid off from work and no end to bills, the temptation has got to be astronomical.
Yet no one seems to think a bad economy plays a role in the economics of prohibition.
Let's discuss what society would look like if we decriminalize all drugs.
Visualize a world where the people you don't want to see anyway die off or are inside their habitats waisting away rather than burning down innocent neighbors. Actually, there's not much difference between those that sit around all day and eat junk and those that sit around doing their version of getting comfortable.
What a hoot...
Someone was making meth at the State Office Building at 4th and Houston today.
That's the building that houses the Governor's Tulsa office, OHP, the AG, and various drug enforcement agencies.
Quote from: patric on August 10, 2009, 01:27:43 PM
What a hoot...
Someone was making meth at the State Office Building at 4th and Houston today.
That's the building that houses the Governor's Tulsa office, OHP, the AG, and various drug enforcement agencies.
Freaking seriously...you have a link?
I've gotta know what is being said about this.
Have they evac'd the building and prepared it for destruction?
Who ever said dope would make you stupid?
I have done work on cases for "endeavoring to manufacture" where they were "caught" with bleach, coffee filter paper, muriatic acid, an empty 2 liter bottle and some finger nail polish remover and charged with endeavoring. The items were in different rooms of a house. None were mixed together. There was no phosphorous, ammonia, or ephedrine in the house. The items were seemingly in sensible places (acid in a tool shed, bleach under the sink, acetone/finger nail polish in the bedroom).
So I'm confident many government officers are guilty of endeavoring to manufacture. I know my household is. :-\
Quote from: Townsend on August 10, 2009, 01:51:19 PM
Freaking seriously...you have a link?
I've gotta know what is being said about this.
Have they evac'd the building and prepared it for destruction?
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Meth-lab-found-at-State-Services-Building-in-Tulsa/wiVS6P6D0U-KtHFmmJGqWw.cspx
Quote from: brianh on August 10, 2009, 02:58:15 PM
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Meth-lab-found-at-State-Services-Building-in-Tulsa/wiVS6P6D0U-KtHFmmJGqWw.cspx
Thanky for linky.
"Investigators believe the lab was built sometime after the building closed for business on Friday."
That keeps me from wondering why they couldn't smell anything. I'm afraid we're going to be on national news again though.
Quote from: Townsend on August 10, 2009, 03:02:03 PM
Thanky for linky.
"Investigators believe the lab was built sometime after the building closed for business on Friday."
That keeps me from wondering why they couldn't smell anything. I'm afraid we're going to be on national news again though.
You reminded me of an SNL sketch where Steve Rubell, the owner of Studio 54 (played by John Belushi), is being interviewed over a cocaine bust at the club:
"Well, I don't know I guess it's just coming in here under our noses"
(Belushi keeps rubbing under his nose and there's remnants of a white powdery substance under it).
Great skit, wish I could find the video of it or even a still.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on August 10, 2009, 02:57:35 PM
I have done work on cases for "endeavoring to manufacture" where they were "caught" with bleach, coffee filter paper, muriatic acid, an empty 2 liter bottle and some finger nail polish remover and charged with endeavoring. The items were in different rooms of a house. None were mixed together. There was no phosphorous, ammonia, or ephedrine in the house. The items were seemingly in sensible places (acid in a tool shed, bleach under the sink, acetone/finger nail polish in the bedroom).
So I'm confident many government officers are guilty of endeavoring to manufacture. I know my household is. :-\
...mine, too. In addition, I've a roll of wire and a pair of pliers, so "bomb-making materials" would also be found.
I just bought 2 gallons of muriatic acid at home depot on sale (from the 4-pallet sale display stacked at the inside front of the store). One for the house, one for the garage. Comes in handy, especially for those stuborn toilet bowl stains, slow running drain or cleaning parts.
Dangerous stuff, however. One good sniff and someone else will have to find you passed out on the bathroom floor, hopefully in time. Even then, fumes will probably have burned your membranes to uselessness.
I also use Nail Polish Remover for its' cleaning qualities (100% acetone, in most cases), so tend to have a small bottle around in the med cab.
Bleech, coffee filters are regulars, virtually daily use around here.
Oddly, the only thing I'd have trouble coming up with are the 2-liter plastic bottles......don't drink/have much pop around here.
Quote from: Wrinkle on August 10, 2009, 03:53:04 PM
Oddly, the only thing I'd have trouble coming up with are the 2-liter plastic bottles......don't drink/have much pop around here.
I have some you can barrow. Let me know when you are cooking. ;)
Also, I brew beer. So I have all sorts of tubing, large cooking containers, and sterilization equipment. If I'm going to make meth, I'm doing it right. Meth heads demand it is nice and sterile, right?
And ARGH on the meth bust. I wonder if the excuse "they built it on my property in 2 days when I wasn't there" would work if they found a meth lab in my garage? Even if I really was on vacation, my guess is I'd get thrown in with the witches.
Breaking Bad is awesome TeeWee....
"You know the business, and I know the chemistry..."
Quote from: sgrizzle on April 03, 2009, 10:24:11 AM
I keep clicking on the thread thinking I'll learn how to build an online meth lab.
The Meth Cookbook (http://www.methamphetamines.org/crystal-meth-addiction/crystal-meth-addiction664.php)
Gaspar,
Great thread, this should be of concern to all of us. I use sudafed fairly regularly, and so I'm very familiar with the ID check. They take my license and disappear for about 2 mins. while they run it through a system. Is this system networked? Are convicted meth makers and users banned from purchasing psuedophedrine? How about "Smurfs", i.e., folks who run around and buy boxes all day. 'Cause that would be helpful.
So, I've read that with Shake 'n Bake, they only need 3-6 boxes for the recipe, you don't need dozens of boxes, which makes it fairly easy again to skirt the law. Get two or three friends together, and 40 minutes later (assuming you haven't blown up), you're ready to go. I've also read that the "smartest" (it's all relative) way to make it via shake 'n bake is in a rolling car, so, are you guys advised on how to spot it/smell it on the street?
I talked to a bio-chemist friend and he seemed to think that it probably wouldn't be possible to put an adulterant in the drug that messes with it when cooked. Apparently, when you swallow them, the chemical reaction inside your body is pretty analogous to the act of cooking it.
But there is one very straightforward way to eliminate meth addiction. "Meth is uniquely susceptible to supply-side intervention". There are only nine factories in the world that make it and you can easily eliminate unregulated manufacture of the active ingredient.
Simply restrict supply to legitimate pharma companies, and further, limit supply to what can legitimately be used for sniffles in a country. They've already done this for codeine, for instance. That way, neither Mexico, nor Canada, nor anyone could acquire enough pseudophedrine to supply the US with meth or meth ingredients.
The DEA has intervened with ephedrine in 1996 and meth purity went way way down. But the pharmaceutical companies wouldn't let them regulate pseudoephedrine, and the superlabs were back in business in less than one year, they simply switched from ephedrine to psuedoephedrine.
You should definitely check out this episode of Frontline: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/
It will p*ss you off, but it will also give you hope. Meth manufacture CAN be stopped.
Quote from: Townsend on August 10, 2009, 01:51:19 PM
Have they evac'd the building and prepared it for destruction?
It is kinda funny that the whole dog-and-pony decontamination sideshow they do for private property didnt apply to the State Office Building.
I didnt see any "specialists" in environment suits ripping out sheetrock or pulling up carpet.
Double standard?