The Oklahoma State legislature not only has hit rock bottom, they've started digging:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090330_11_A1_Statel165138&allcom=1
We don't need yer book learnin'
Holy buckets...I can't find the words...that wouldn't be edited in red.
Pancakes
Freedom of speech is critical to our democracy, provided that it doesn't contradict accepted wisdom or long-held religious beliefs. Freedom of speech is essential and should always be in agreement with the prevailing political philosophy. If it gets too free, however, it's subversive and should be punished.
Prosecutor: Tell the court why you think he is a traitor to this country.
Miss America: I think Mr. Mellish is a traitor to this country because his views are different from the views of the president and others of his kind. Differences of opinion should be tolerated, but not when they're too different. Then he becomes a subversive mother. Woody Allen's 'Bananas'
Seriously, would David Boren be within his rights as the top university administrator to tell the meddling legislators to go to hell?
Quote from: Ed W on March 30, 2009, 11:24:16 AM
Freedom of speech is critical to our democracy, provided that it doesn't contradict accepted wisdom or long-held religious beliefs. Freedom of speech is essential and should always be in agreement with the prevailing political philosophy. If it gets too free, however, it's subversive and should be punished.
Prosecutor: Tell the court why you think he is a traitor to this country.
Miss America: I think Mr. Mellish is a traitor to this country because his views are different from the views of the president and others of his kind. Differences of opinion should be tolerated, but not when they're too different. Then he becomes a subversive mother. Woody Allen's 'Bananas'
Seriously, would David Boren be within his rights as the top university administrator to tell the meddling legislators to go to hell?
"from now on, everyone must where their underware on the inside out so as we can tell"
Just about everything coming out of Oklahoma really makes one stop to think where is this going from here? Do I really want to put down roots and continue to invest in Oklahoma? I'm a lifelong Democrat but I feel very little kinship with local Democrats and Oklahoma's Republicans have not one redeeming feature.
I know there are other transplants out there thinking the same thing.
What is really disconcerting is that Oklahoma has gone backwards. This kind of nonsense would not have happened in 1975 when I was growing up here.
You can only make so many excuses for this kind of behavior and then you just have to face up to who it is you live with.
Quote from: Hometown on March 30, 2009, 12:39:30 PM
Just about everything coming out of Oklahoma really makes one stop to think where is this going from here? Do I really want to put down roots and continue to invest in Oklahoma? I'm a lifelong Democrat but I feel very little kinship with local Democrats and Oklahoma's Republicans have not one redeeming feature.
I know there are other transplants out there thinking the same thing.
What is really disconcerting is that Oklahoma has gone backwards. This kind of nonsense would not have happened in 1975 when I was growing up here.
You can only make so many excuses for this kind of behavior and then you just have to face up to who it is you live with.
Probably because most Oklahoma Democrats are essentially "Republican Lite". Especially in the state and national legislative bodies.
Quote from: Hometown on March 30, 2009, 12:39:30 PM
Just about everything coming out of Oklahoma really makes one stop to think where is this going from here? Do I really want to put down roots and continue to invest in Oklahoma? I'm a lifelong Democrat but I feel very little kinship with local Democrats and Oklahoma's Republicans have not one redeeming feature.
I know there are other transplants out there thinking the same thing.
What is really disconcerting is that Oklahoma has gone backwards. This kind of nonsense would not have happened in 1975 when I was growing up here.
You can only make so many excuses for this kind of behavior and then you just have to face up to who it is you live with.
Yes sir....hard to believe but true....1976 we were much brighter....IT'S THE SUBURBS THAT DUMBED US DOWN!
I've gleaned a lot of insight from people here at TulsaNow and when I have asked "why have we gone backwards," I've gotten responses like ORU churning out a steady stream of Evangelicals that stay in the area, and the departure of the Oil Headquarters and the growth of Call Centers who attracted a different class of worker.
The kids I grew up with here were sophisticated, worldly, well-educated and well-versed in Darwinism. Apparently, we haven't sustained a critical mass.
Let see what issues have been at the top the legislatures mind this year.
Banning abortion based on the sex of the fetus (something that failed to ever take place at any time in Oklahoma)
Mandating that all school children say the state and national pledges of allegiance
Erecting a monument with the Ten Commandments at the capital
And now this.
Please write these idiots. From looking around the good Rep Hamilton lists her profession as a "writer". She serves on the Higher Ed committee and doesn't list any history of education on her voter profiles. His education was as a punter on the OU football team.
Rep. Rebecca Hamilton, D-Oklahoma City:
2300 N. Lincoln Blvd.
Room 510
Oklahoma City, OK 73105
(405) 557-7397
rebeccahamilton@okhouse.gov
State Rep. Todd Thomsen, R-Ada
2300 N. Lincoln Blvd.
Room 408
Oklahoma City, OK 73105
(405) 557-7336
todd.thomsen@okhouse.gov
Quote from: FOTD on March 30, 2009, 12:58:28 PM
Yes sir....hard to believe but true....1976 we were much brighter....IT'S THE SUBURBS THAT DUMBED US DOWN!
Well, I think you've hit on something. Owasso, for instance, has been overwhelmingly Republican as long as I can remember. And our state senator is none other than Randy Brogdon.
So it's refreshing to find someone who can candidly admit that Republicans are dumber than stumps.
Oklahoma seems to have a lot of "By Godders."
"I'm right By God!"
"By God, I'll whup your a** if you don't agree with me."
"By God, I have a RIGHT to be backwards!"
They purse their whacky agendas with the conviction of an SS Hauptsturmfuhrer.
And God help anyone who is in their way....
It only took 12 posts to invoke Godwin's Law.
What draws the uneducated to the Republican Party? Devil's curious because voter registration numbers show that the number of college and high school grads is much higher in the Democratic party. Don't get me wrong there are uneducated on both sides, just way more in the GOP...
May the invisible man in the sky bless you all.
Unless you don't believe in him, then may you burn in hell for eternity.
A bunch of devils in angel sheets.
Little do they understand the negative impact all this has on economic development.
I am gonna just push away from the Dem vrs Rep on this one. I also don't think its a religious thing per say either.
I am a 4th generation Tulsan and from the best that I can recall and discern, something has indeed changed from when I was a kid and even from my parents generation and earlier, pertaining to how people think. Think about science and religion in general, and just how they think and reason, period.
I remember as a little boy staying with my grandmother every summer and spring break. We would walk to the little country church around the corner where she played the piano and church organ for the congregation. This side of the family was very poor, but worked hard and valued learning. She wore those simple handmade dresses, farmed and raised cattle, she would walk to church holding her bible in one hand while I proudly held her other hand. I remember going to Bible School and memorizing the books of the bible, and bible verses, etc. I remember going to Falls Creek as a young teen. But I also remember my grandmother as being someone who was very intelligent and talented. My mom was a college professor and taught science in grade school and high school. There were always books in my home and both grandparents homes to read. Lots and lots and lots of books. There was school and there was church, and the topics never mixed.
I actually cant remember a single time in my life when anyone in my family or extended family really mentioned church outside of church other than asking what you were going to wear that Sunday etc. lol. We didn't preach at people, or use religious language or quote bible verses and couch everything in a religious context. We were out eating the other day when my mother was in town and the people behind me in the booth were, actually getting annoying. They were discussing religious stuff, LOUDLY, this one guy kept singing religious songs, etc. Besides the fact that they had poor manners and were so loud, the point is it seems like there are more and more people who are just consumed with church, and church groups, church outings, making sure everyone else is "in on it".
The other day a lady on another forum mentioned something very interesting. She had recently moved here from the east coast. She said she was a Christian, had always gone to church,,, but she noticed something very different about things here. She said it seemed harder to make friends with the neighbors here. People are very friendly on the one hand, but distant on another. As she kept reaching out to her neighbors and community as was her habit where she used to live she noticed that people were busy doing things "with their churches" Kids soccer was with the church soccer club for instance. She said where she used to live there was more of a sense of community within the neighborhood or area you lived in. People went to all different kinds of churches, but their church wasn't so entwined with everything else, so all consuming as it seems here. You went to church but you also did things with your neighbors. Here, unless you go to the persons particular church, your kind of on your own. Not true in every case, but just enough truth to make a real and noticeable difference. It was interesting to read her perspective and how she explained it.
I also remember as a kid how important science education was. I remember those bw, fluttery, films that are so cliche in our memory. Science was honored and respected. It was important and so highly valued. I remember the same kinds of films that taught values and manners. Don't talk to strangers, always wear sunscreen lol, look both ways before crossing the street, say yes sir, yes mam and thank you, practice makes perfect, study hard, work hard, eat your vegetables, get plenty of exercise, etc. etc. It wasn't "What would Jesus do?" You just learned good behaviors and habits period. Those old science books and movies made science seem as though it was something incredible. Not something to be scorned.
I would venture to say that its not that we are religious, its that we are perhaps religious differently. Its not that people may or may not be as smart. Its what they are smart about and the respect they give to different things. If you don't respect science, your not likely to respect getting it right. Somewhere along the way that lack of respect led to junk science and pseudoscience getting a big foothold. People cant discern between whats real and not real, then add to that religion that has become more a part of politics, daily life, community life, and one that has a tendency to believe in "magic" (vrs unknown and mystery, but with good science ultimately knowable). Which leads to another thing. More and more churches here ascribe to the "waving around of hands up in the air for some magical who knows what reason, flopping around on the floor, faith healing, working yourself up into some ecstatic trance by singing and saying adjectives like "wonderful, glorious, awesome, powerful, super duper megalistic,,," swaying back and forth jumping, up and down. At my church as a kid you stood up, sat down, didn't fidget or cough lol. I can only guess that blabbering nonsense, rolling your eyes around, then flopping around on the floor would have been a definite no no.
I resent that the religious wingnuts have hijacked the Republican Party. I just cannot buy into the Democrat party, especially at the national level. As mentioned, local democrats are frequently Republican Lite which is OK by me. It gives me an alternative at the polls sometimes. Keep the Kennedys in NY and MA. Keep Pelosi in CA.
Artist - that was quite a post and a background I pretty-much share. Thank you for stirring some great memories.
I am bothered by the comments in this thread (and elsewhere) relating political affiliation and/or religious beliefs to intelligence. Where, exactly is the evidence of that?
The easiest thing to do is brand everyone with whom you disagree an idiot. I think this is the most important change I've seen since kid-hood. I was brought up to always assume someone else has more knowledge on any given topic than I do - until presented with evidence to the contrary.
This often presents itself but cannot be predicted by voting tendencies or bible ownership (or readership, or adherence).
Delmo: This is the devils advocate, a friend so to speak. The lack of intelligence becomes evident when politicians interject their religious beliefs on everyone at the cost of constitutionality. They are challenged. Idiot is too strong. It's reserved for Cheney and Bush.
Artist:These "issues" are diversions from serious work that carries a political risk. There's no risk of invoking religion when that's who you cater to. They certainly don't cater to everyone. Just the one's they know will re elect them.....
Red: Can you add 'keep Norm Coleman in Minnesota'?
Thank you.
Quote from: TheArtist on March 30, 2009, 07:04:49 PM
I can only guess that blabbering nonsense, rolling your eyes around, then flopping around on the floor would have been a definite no no.
That's what I did in church when I was a kid, although not for any reason having anything to do with being touched by the hand of God.. ;)
Quote from: Delmo Gillete on March 30, 2009, 09:45:33 PM
I am bothered by the comments in this thread (and elsewhere) relating political affiliation and/or religious beliefs to intelligence. Where, exactly is the evidence of that?
Well, to take over AOX roll as the devils advocate . . .
Talking snakes, virgin births, man-ghost-gods, speaking in tongues, flat earth, men living inside fish, faith healing, stoning people for a litany of "crimes," following portions of the word of God while ignoring others, actively fighting biology, geology and other sciences, confusing myth with fact, ignoring anything and everything that contradicts stories and beliefs held in the bronze age. Quick reference check - what else from the bronze age do we cling to? For that matter, name another topic where someone holds a belief and advocates that belief to others and the less proof and logic used to support that belief, the better.
What? You have absolutely no proof at all and it makes no logical sense but you still base your life on it and pass laws to force other people to do the same? That's fantastic! The same people advocating in the Oklahoma legislature for Christian laws will make fun of Mormon, Hindu, or Scientology beliefs that are equally absurd. Well hey, there's no atheists in a foxhole - presumably because sleep deprivation, stress, and fear lead to rational thought above all else.
It has nothing to do with intelligence of course. Intelligence is in reference to the raw ability of a particular brain to reason. Most religious people have the ability to reason, it's just far easier to accept things on faith. In all cultures in all parts of the world people have made stuff up to explain what they otherwise could not. It's just that most of those people didn't decide they were right above all others and force convert people (ever notice in the Bible the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, nor Romans ever forced the Jews to convert? They were more/less tolerant on various levels but religion was not their primary concern).
To be perfectly clear: religious belief is in no way indicative of a lack of intelligence. HOWEVER, religious beliefs are proudly held outside the realm of intelligent thought. So of course correlating matters of faith with intelligence is of no use whatsoever.
Artist:
Your last paragraph flirts with my understanding of the situation. The issues is not that we are overly religious, it is the brand of religion that is practiced. FUNDAMENTALISM.
FUNDAMENTALISM is a bad thing when held as a belief by a Muslim. His WORD OF GOD is wrong. Laws he passes based on his book are stupid medieval holdovers. But Baptist flavored Christian fundamentalism and the laws passed based on that bronze age holdover are righteous! In many instances in my conversations people will readily admit that they would like to see politicians pass laws to enforce their religious beliefs on others, which is not comforting at all.
In most parts of the world and throughout most of history religion has colored but not run society. When religion runs society it is usually because that is all that was left or because religion was used to yield power over the masses. Usually, religion is ancillary to society and like most modern people looked at with a healthy degree of skepticism.
What many Fundamentalist Baptists don't understand is that the rest of the country doesn't
really believe the Bible is literal truth. Catholic doctrine long ago abandoned that notion, many protestant churches never held it, it doesn't even exist as a concept in Eastern Religions (that there is one truth), even the Mormon Elders I've spoken with don't try to defend everything as literal truth (literalism/fundamentalism is not a tenet of Mormonism). In most parts of the country you can walk into a church and say "Jonah didn't really live in a giant fish for 3 days" and the congregation would look at you like "ummm, yeah. It's a story meant to teach bronze age persons a life lesson." Friends don't get it when I try to explain that the statistic that 80% of the nation considers themselves Christian does not reflect that 80% of the nation actually believes what is said in the Bible.
In much of Oklahoma the Bible is literal and should control your life and that of your society. The laws you support, the people you vote for, what kids are taught in school and in some instances especially your finances. I can not attest that this is a change in Oklahoma. But I've lived in other parts of the country, was raised Catholic, and have traveled a good bit and can attest that the Fundamentalist strain of religion adhered to in Oklahoma is different than most of the nation.
Believe as you wish. Do what you want. But when your belief and actions interfere with my reality, I start getting concerned. I won't tell you what to do in your church, don't tell me what to do outside of it.
/unedited rant. Sure I went off course and was not clear. Sorry.
Let the 2009 Monkey Trials begin! It's like some people here are proud of their stupidity.
I love Tulsa, but the state of Oklahoma is SERIOUSLY making it harder and harder to live here. I know it sounds silly, but couldn't Tulsa declare itself sovereign? Remember when Oklahoma claimed itself as a sovereign state? This would just follow suit... ;D
cannon is right on the money. And Turoby is correct...it is hard to want to stay here. (To which all the By Godders will shout, "Well, don't let the door hit you in the a** By God!"
After I finish, I don't want to stay here too long. My boss only stays here because as he said, "Why be a wolf in the pack, when you can be a wolf with the sheep."
There is a twisted bitterness that seems to flow through a lot of these folks. They smile and praise the Lord, while sharpening their daggers. And I have never lived somewhere where people seem so genuinely happy at the misery and misfortune of others.
This is my Hometown. I was here before ORU.
I was here when most Tulsans attended mainstream Christian denominations, when it was considered rude to push your religion on other people. There were two religious nuts at Nathan Hale when I was there.
Tulsa has changed and the change is not for the better.
During Reagan's presidency the Republican party made a cynical decision to exploit the Evangelical vote. It won them some elections but now its a ball and chain. I've heard from more than one Republican that wants the nuts out of their party. Oklahoma is, of course, behind the curve.
Midtown could seced from South Tulsa ("Jesusland") and the rest of the state all in one fell swoop.
I'm searching for a downside to this idea... and coming up empty... ;)
Artist, I was struck with how similar our upbringings were, yet they were separated by at least a decade and a half. That tells me that indeed, things have changed since our youth in Oklahoma. We weren't always a radically religious city. Of course, no one complained in our city when my fellow grade school kids were marched out of speech class to visit the nearby Episcopal church each Wednesday morning for what was called "bible class". That was around 1959. Parents signed off on it. How ironic that speech was the class usurped by the local evangelicals to teach us religion.
Your religious posts are always impressive CF. Fundamentalism may indeed be the brand of religion that causes our angst. I just wish I was as confident as the rest of you that intelligence is not related to our red state religious radicalism here. If intelligence is the capability to learn, then you're right. We certainly are not a disturbed or mentally damaged community (polluted watersheds notwithstanding). If it is described as the ability to use what has been learned by comparing, contrasting, internalizing and deducing in order to form solutions to complex problems, then no we are indeed a stupid state whose religious radicalism makes us so. Does that make sense? Its like Forrest Gump says, "Stupid is as stupid does".
Nowhere have I seen any definition of intelligence as including faith. Nowhere. Faith it seems to me would be the opposite concept. Therefore, an unshakable faith in the Bible is not very intelligent. Scientists don't have faith in Darwin's theory, they simply find its reasoning and deductions compelling and difficult to disprove. Just like gravity. Now don't jump to the conclusion that I think religion or its followers are stupid. Their practice of religion often makes them stupid.
When Catholic parents won't let their kids play with non-Catholics, its stupid. When church members circle the wagons and offer only shallow courtesy to outsiders its stupid. When our state legislators attempt to harass a university for the practice of free speech, its stupid.
Quote from: FOTD on March 30, 2009, 10:10:26 PM
Red: Can you add 'keep Norm Coleman in Minnesota'?
Thank you.
MN is Bluer than OK is Red. Norm Coleman is actually below my radar. Since there are no Republicans in MN, he must be a renegade Democrat. I have seen Al Franken on Letterman. Funny man. Unfortunately, Al makes you look like a Republican. (No insult intended.) As a favor, I'll agree to keep Norm in MN but only on the condition that you keep Al there as well.
I don't post on here much but I have to say "The Artist's" post is one of the best I've ever read on a message board. I moved to the Tulsa area four years ago from Colorado and I've noticed a lot of the same things the lady he was talking about mentioned. Being a Christian and also a Democrat, it seems like those two things together are rare to come by here. It's been hard to find a church that doesn't do the things that he discusses in his post.
Why do you believe Christians and Democrats are rarely joined? Democrats have had the moral high ground throughout my life. More than a few mainstream Christian denominations were involved with the antiwar movement during the Vietnam era. Christianity and the Left joined forces. And Republicans, on the other hand, have taken anti-Christian stands over and over. Today they are working to pass legislation that would diminish the ability of poor people to seek justice in our courts. That's hardly the kind of thing Jesus would go for.
I think that a thorough investigation into fundamentalist churches in Oklahoma and their involvement in politics would yield a lot of damming evidence.
We were taught it was rude to force your religious beliefs on other people and you know what? It is -- rude and illegal.
The one constant in life in the U.S. is change and there will come a day when the evangelical movement is greatly diminished. [Though Oklahoma will probably be the last to let go.]
I don't believe that at all, where I grew up going to church and politics were usually seperate things. At our church there were people with all types of political beliefs. Here though it seems that churches are more political and less tolerant of having members with opposing political views.