I respect the unions. I respect the right to free speech.
But they have now gone too far. They have stopped simply chanting stupid phrases to know blowing whistles and using clubs to beat on empty buckets.
Someone tell me how to stop them. Where do I go file a complaint?
Now I can hear them inside the walls of my business across the street. They block us from using the sidewalk at lunch. They have just gone from protest to a violation of our rights.
Please advise me, someone. There has to be a noise violation on the whistles. The drum sounds just echo through our walls.
I know longer have any sympathy for their cause and will file any paperwork necessary to stop them from obstructing with our office and our lives.
I will never use a union carpenter in this town again. The other trade unions are fine. It is the carpenter's hiring homeless people and destroying our work day that must be stopped.
Who is Dave Hannagan and why is there a protestor placed in front of Southern Hills CC? He's been there off and on for months.
Buy some ear plugs and be true to Democratic core values.
Quote from: Hometown on March 19, 2009, 08:36:53 AM
Buy some ear plugs and be true to Democratic core values.
lol. Unions hiring non-union laborers for a sub-par scale in cash with no benefits to protest for them against people for not using union labor. Hiring non-union labor to protest the use of non-union labor, brilliant! Them's some fine core values. Next week the Republicans are going to abort 13 fetuses to take pictures of in order to protest abortion (see, they'd be violating their core value in order to protest someone else violating their core value, so it's funny).
The ENTIRE dispute is centered around the fact that these companies went with a different contractor. There is nothing more to the dispute than the fact that the contractor went with a different company (read: not the one the carpenter's union wants). That's not a labor dispute, it isn't a strike, it's just harassment. They have a right to harass whomever they like, but pretending it is in support of some core value is either ill informed or ill conceived.
- - -
AOX:
This was addressed in your hiatus:
Quotestymied wrote
For those that don't know, David Hannigan is the president of Green Country Interiors here in Tulsa. They are the largest drywall and metal stud framing contractor in Oklahoma. They have been protesting at Southern Hills, Hillcrest, Crowne Plaza, IBC, TU, and the Mayo - all Green Country Interiors projects. They have even been protesting in front of his house. Locally the carpenters union solely supports Midwest Drywall out of Wichita. So when you see the local carpenters union protesting around here, it is Midwest Drywall behind it. I know firsthand that Midwest Drywall has bid nearly all the projects mentioned above and others they are protesting as well not mentioned above that were awarded to other contractos besides Green Country Interiors(in front of St. Francis), and THEY WEREN'T FREAKING LOW BIDDER. Get over it already. Get better not bitter. They have been successful ..well, er maybe not successful, but low on other projects. Anybody drive by the Creek Casino on Riverside? Is it open yet? After 3 years that thing still isn't open, and everything I have heard it is because of Midwest Drywall falling on their faces and unable to perform. So rather than protest all around town over the jobs you haven't gotten, why not go finish the ones you have? If I was an owner, I would not want my construction manager to allow Midwest to bid because if they aren't low and I hire someone else, they are going to piss and moan and make my life miserable for months or more.
- - -
RM:
My best guess would be in looking into nuisance law. My right to free speech can not infringe on your rights. If my speech escalates from a message, to just trying to get attention by banging on drums, I may have crossed from protected speech to just being a nuisance. Balancing the two is difficult, but there is little political value in blowing whistles and pounding on buckets all day (or there underlying protest IMHO).
Or, and this sounds more up RM's alley, spend your lunch hour trying to organize the protesters. Just bring a petition with you that says hired protesters should get paid a minimum of $20 an hour, get mandatory 15 minute breaks every 2 hours, paid holidays, health and dental. Get the hired protesters (who are getting $10 an hour) to sign off on it and present it to the carpenter's union.
When the union laughs you off and says that card checks are not valid to form unions in Oklahoma you form a counter protest of the union for union busting the Local Protester's Union, Local 1. Better yet would be if they fired the "trouble makers" who tried to fight for better wages and hired "rates" to replace them.
This could really be priceless.
Another strategy would to pay them $11 an hour to protest the Carpenter's Union. Hired protesters, one must assume, just protest for whomever pays them the most. "We'll be here every day, each and every day, we'll be here every day, until the carpenter's union goes away."
I think there is a ton of irony here being unexploited.
Quote from: Hometown on March 19, 2009, 08:36:53 AM
Buy some ear plugs and be true to Democratic core values.
I wish I could. I am pro-union...whenever we have work done on our house, I try to always hire union workers. I still believe that union workers are usually better craftsmen.
But asking me and my entire office to wear earplugs?
What a stupid idea.
I noticed that Tuesday RM. I had some business at the courthouse and thought I'd have lunch at Topeca's. Instead I walked to Billy's so I didn't have to put up with the cacaphony outside. I seriously doubt I'm the only person who will avoid patronizing Topeca's because of the noise, and it is a little intimidating to walk up the north sidewalk. When I left Billy's and headed back to the CH, AEP was working on replacing something under the sidewalk, so they had run off the protestors. The "Labor Dispute" cretins were camped in front of IBC as well. A more peaceful protest, but I think there were about 6 people on the payroll that day.
Anyone else ready to launch a protest against the protestors on the south side of the street?
IMO- any self-respecting member of the carpenter's union should shred their card after seeing this waste of their union dues, which could otherwise be in their own pockets. Why on earth do they think companies are electing to use non-union shops. It's not just saving $$$, why would anyone do business with such an obnoxious group?
If you're gonna protest their, your sign should say:
HOLD THE MAYO
accountable
Quote from: cannon_fodder on March 19, 2009, 09:00:38 AM
My best guess would be in looking into nuisance law.
Give me a little more information. I will file any paperwork needed. Where do I need to look?
The protestors are working on me, I haven't spent any money there since they began protesting.....
Got an idea to solve the problem, flashmob style
They are there because the sidewalk is public and you can't block the public from using the public sidewalk right?
What if it was already in use when they got there?
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 19, 2009, 10:07:19 AM
Got an idea to solve the problem, flashmob style
They are there because the sidewalk is public and you can't block the public from using the public sidewalk right?
What if it was already in use when they got there?
I like it.
I wonder about the details...how many of us would it take to commandeer the area...when in the day would we have to start...what day of the week could we get enough of us together, etc.
I think I could make up some blank picket signs and wear duct tape over my mouth, just for effect.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on March 19, 2009, 09:00:38 AM
Get the hired protesters (who are getting $10 an hour) to sign off on it and present it to the carpenter's union.
That's pretty good money for standing out on the sidewalk holding signs and making noise.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 19, 2009, 10:31:23 AM
I like it.
I wonder about the details...how many of us would it take to commandeer the area...when in the day would we have to start...what day of the week could we get enough of us together, etc.
I think I could make up some blank picket signs and wear duct tape over my mouth, just for effect.
I think we would need to have some big items or large activity to make sure we have the whole space to ourselves. Sidewalk art, large tent, something.
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 19, 2009, 11:14:06 AM
I think we would need to have some big items or large activity to make sure we have the whole space to ourselves. Sidewalk art, large tent, something.
Sidewalk pretty smooth? Beer can bowling is easy to set up and takes up considerable space. Just need to drink some beers and have a cantaloupe handy.
Quote from: nathanm on March 19, 2009, 10:46:59 AM
That's pretty good money for standing out on the sidewalk holding signs and making noise.
I agree. But it isn't enough! They have no job security and no health care. A protester can not earn a reasonable living working for the Carpenters Union. This isn't about how skilled they are, what they can offer, or how the economics of it work out - it's about providing a living wage to people.
- - -
RM:
City of Tulsa, Municipal Ordinances
SECTION 103. NUISANCES AFFECTING PEACE AND SAFETY
The following are hereby declared to be public nuisances affecting public peace
and safety:
. . .
F. All noises, sounds, or vibrations of such a character or duration so as to be
unreasonably loud or disturbing to the peace and quiet of persons of ordinary
sensibilities, including but not limited to those persons inside a building or structure
used in whole or in part as a domicile, residence, or dwelling;
. . .
H. Obstructions and excavations affecting the ordinary use by the public of
the streets, alleys, sidewalks or public ground except under such conditions as are
provided by ordinance;
I. Any use of the public streets or sidewalks which causes large crowds of
people to gather, obstructing the flow of traffic and the free use of the streets or
sidewalks;
Available at:
http://www.cityauditorphilwood.com/ordinances/24NUISAN.pdf (page 5 - 7)
For steps to take for abatement of a nuisance see page 8 on of the same document.
State law also handles Nuisances (largely authorizing municipalities to remedy them) in Title 50 of the Oklahoma Statutes:
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/Index.asp?ftdb=STOKST50&level=1
*** I have not researched the conflicts of law in this matter. Their right to freedom of speech has to be balanced against your right to be free from unreasonable nuisance. I am not advocating the use of this statute nor advising of the potential for success or possibility of repercussions of any such attempt.
[edit]typo[/edit]
Quote from: cannon_fodder on March 19, 2009, 11:40:21 AM
*** I have no researched the conflicts of law in this matter. Their right to freedom of speech has to be balanced against your right to be free from unreasonable nuisance. I am not advocating the use of this statute nor advising of the potential for success or possibility of repercussions of any such attempt.
Next you're going to tell us you aren't a lawyer. :o
Quote from: Hometown on March 19, 2009, 08:36:53 AM
Buy some ear plugs and be true to Democratic core values.
+1 karma for that.
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 19, 2009, 10:07:19 AM
Got an idea to solve the problem, flashmob style
They are there because the sidewalk is public and you can't block the public from using the public sidewalk right?
What if it was already in use when they got there?
Tulsa Now Lemonade Stand
Thanks cannon fodder for the link, but it only showed how the city can declare something a nuisance.
How do I, as a citizen, ask for an investigation and hopeful determination that something is a nuisance?
Quote from: cannon_fodder on March 19, 2009, 11:40:21 AM
*** I have no researched the conflicts of law in this matter. Their right to freedom of speech has to be balanced against your right to be free from unreasonable nuisance. I am not advocating the use of this statute nor advising of the potential for success or possibility of repercussions of any such attempt.
Heh - that's why I try not to get involved in these legal discussions.
Michael, I'm glad you use union workers in your home. You probably even obtain permits and inspections. That's unusual in this town.
Now, before you file your complaint I want to ask you to reconsider. Out of all of the crowd here at TulsaNow I would have pegged you as most likely to end up an elected official in the Democratic Party. You are a born politician. Filing your complaint against a local union could easily work against you in the future.
I'd hate to see you diminish the foundation you have laid.
Would it better if someone called the Mayor's Action Line and filed a complaint that way. Seems the most simple method. Or, simply a call to the non-emergency police line.
Would either of those methods work?
RM:
I'm afraid I have no additional information. I just quick ran through the Ordinances and looks it up. I imagine it would be a call to the city complaint center to report a nuisance - much like you would any other nuisance.
Have you tried reasoning with them? Just tell them that they are not helping their cause but rather hurting it by annoying people that might support their cause but-for being unfortunate enough to work nearby. It couldn't hurt.
Quote from: Hometown on March 19, 2009, 03:01:14 PM
Michael, I'm glad you use union workers in your home. You probably even obtain permits and inspections. That's unusual in this town.
Now, before you file your complaint I want to ask you to reconsider. Out of all of the crowd here at TulsaNow I would have pegged you as most likely to end up an elected official in the Democratic Party. You are a born politician. Filing your complaint against a local union could easily work against you in the future.
I'd hate to see you diminish the foundation you have laid.
Remember, it's not a local union that's protesting. Just a drywall contractor from Kansas.
Quote from: Hometown on March 19, 2009, 03:01:14 PM
Michael, I'm glad you use union workers in your home. You probably even obtain permits and inspections. That's unusual in this town.
Now, before you file your complaint I want to ask you to reconsider. Out of all of the crowd here at TulsaNow I would have pegged you as most likely to end up an elected official in the Democratic Party. You are a born politician. Filing your complaint against a local union could easily work against you in the future.
I'd hate to see you diminish the foundation you have laid.
I thank you for the compliment. I think public service is an honorable profession. I don't plan to run for office, but I get asked to all the time. I also consider it to be very flattering.
One of the reasons I could never campaign around here is that I am very liberal. If politics were baseball, I would play left field and stand in foul territory. That is hard to overcome in Oklahoma. Secondly, I have known others who made the transition from activist to candidate and have seen the way others change their view about them.
I also have made many mistakes pissing off other democrats. I have strong opinions and have often helped candidates from the other side of the aisle and the combination has led to some difficulties. I am a democrat, but I am also a communitarian and sometimes (almost never!) the republican is better qualified.
I do worry about the union retaliating against me. Not so much because of some future political career, but more of a concern for my co-workers. It is probably stupid to be the one who complains, but as I said at the start of the thread...I've had it.
Today they brought cow bells to go along with the drum beater. They have crossed the line. Someone has to do something.
We have a right to work in peace and to use the same sidewalk. I would love to talk reason to them, but feel that the guy beating the drum with a club will probably not listen. They have purposely taken these measures to be as obnoxious as possible.
Here is my new question tonight...how can they have a parade of chanting homeless people carrying picket signs when they have no event permit? There is a very clear procedure to get an event permit and they have never applied nor been approved by the city council.
Is this daily protest an event? Can this be an opening for me to get the city to help stop them?
I wonder what this drywall company hopes to accomplish? I wouldnt have known what it was about until Cannon told me. I saw their signs and "Shame On....fill in blank" doesnt tell me a thing and wouldnt stop me from using the particular business. I dont think hardly anyone else knows what its about or cares. Then when you do find out, it just makes the drywall company look stupid. How is this supposed to help them?
It should be noted that my information comes from speaking to the protesters outside of TU, handouts from the ones downtown, this board, and InsideTulsaSports.com (which had a thread on it on account of the Tulsa protests). So my word isn't necessarily truth, but it's the best information I have.
Michael, I will be at the Courthouse today. If you would like me to I'll talk to the protesters and tell them neighboring businesses (not being protested) do not appreciate the noise. If they are hostile towards that I will simply ask who is sponsoring them and contact the underlying group.
I'm a big fan of exhausting all cooperative measures before going to the authorities.
Michael, your last post tells me you have considered running for office. We know one thing for sure, Oklahoma needs successful Liberal leadership. I hope we can convince you to reconsider as time goes along.
Hey, take Cannon up on his offer. I would guess that Cannnon would not identify you.
I bet he can make a difference.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on March 20, 2009, 08:12:49 AM
It should be noted that my information comes from speaking to the protesters outside of TU, handouts from the ones downtown, this board, and InsideTulsaSports.com (which had a thread on it on account of the Tulsa protests). So my word isn't necessarily truth, but it's the best information I have.
That right there goes to my point. If someone who has looked for information on whats going on, isnt sure of whats going on.... how is the average person walking or driving by gonna know? lol Perhaps the owner of the business they are protesting is wearing fur coats and they are protesting animal cruelty? lol Or the owner said a bad word.. SHAME! on them, just SHAME! lol... The majority doesnt know and thus cant possibly care. I am sure its not affecting the businesses they are protesting, but it does seem to be hurting the little businesses downtown there that had nothing to do with,,, whatever it is they are "shaming". And making people annoyed with the protesters and whoever is sponsoring them ta boot.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 19, 2009, 09:44:38 AM
Give me a little more information. I will file any paperwork needed. Where do I need to look?
See Title 50 of the Oklahoma statute. It outlines all nuisances. I think the part you are interested in is chapter 2 which outlines public nuisances. After reading 50-16, it looks like the cities are allowed to define what is a nuisance by their own standards and laws like that are always tricky because of the broad generalizations.
The carpenters union has hired dozens of homeless people to stand in for union members to wage a "shame" campaign against a nonunion contractor, a Tulsa World investigation shows.
The Local 943 Carpenters Union has organized a 2-year effort to coerce Green Country Interiors Inc. to pay union wages and benefits to its construction workers, said David Hannagan, president and part owner of Green Country.
During the past two years, the union has employed about 200 individuals served by the Iron Gate program housed at Trinity Episcopal Church, said Wiley Lee, a spokesman for the carpenter's union.
When asked if the homeless workers earn union pay and benefits, Lee said the workers are temporary employees without a benefits package because of their status.
In addition to hanging the banners, the union is sending letters to potential Hannagan customers, warning them that they will see banners showing up at their businesses if they hire Hannagan, according to records obtained by the World.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090321_11_A1_Agroup796430
Well on a good note.... all this hubub is free advertising for Green Country Interiors and doesnt seem to be hurting them any. Plus a number of homeless people are being employed. Perhaps we should encourage this,,, as long as they arent noisy and causing problems. I have a little sheetrocking that can still be done,,, I can both hire the sheetrockers and as a side benefit employ some homeless people. :-)
Here's the Penal Code chapter pertaining to Picketing in the Tulsa City Ordinances...
CHAPTER 17
PICKETING
Section 1700. Definitions.
Section 1701. Picketing Unlawful Because of Manner in Which Conducted.
Section 1702. Picketing Unlawful Because of Place at Which Conducted.
Section 1703. Conspiring to Cause Unlawful Picketing.
Section 1704. Picket Line an Offense Where Picketing Unlawful.
Section 1705. Penalty.
SECTION 1700. DEFINITIONS
As used in this chapter, the following terms shall be construed to include the meanings embraced in popular usage and also specifically the meanings given herein.
A. Armed Picketing shall mean and include the carrying of any weapon or any instrument capable of being adapted for use as a weapon or means of intimidation by any person engaged or participating in picketing.
B. Labor Dispute shall mean and include any and all disputes between an employer and his or its employees, and also all negotiations or efforts of trade unions and labor organizations of every kind to enter into or to continue any contract or contracts with an employer with reference to the terms or conditions of labor or the selection or recognition of a bargaining agent, regardless of whether there is any actual dispute between such employer and his or its then employees.
C. Mass Picketing shall mean and include the congregation of persons engaged in picketing as herein defined in such numbers as to prevent or interfere with the free and unobstructed passage of traffic or pedestrians along any street, sidewalk, alley, railroad right-of-way or entrance into any place of business, factory or yard.
D. Picketing shall mean and include any method or device used to publicize grievances; particularly the walking, standing or loitering of a person upon or along any sidewalk, street or alley while engaged in the act of displaying any signs, placards or banners or verbally dissuading or attempting to dissuade persons from patronizing or entering a place of business.
E. Picket Line shall mean and include the act of picketing by one or more persons under such circumstances or with such banners, placards or other notices as, under then existing bylaws or obligations of any trade union or labor organization in the City of Tulsa, would expose any member of any of the organization to disciplinary action by such trade union or labor organization if such member should enter the place of business then being picketed.
SECTION 1701. PICKETING UNLAWFUL BECAUSE OF MANNER IN WHICH CONDUCTED
It is an offense for any person to engage or participate in mass picketing, armed picketing or any picketing in which resort is had to violence, threats or acts of intimidation or physical coercion.
SECTION 1702. PICKETING UNLAWFUL BECAUSE OF P LACE AT WHICH CONDUCTED
It shall be an offense for any person in furtherance of or in connection with any labor dispute to engage in the act of picketing any of the following described places:
A. Any building, property, yard or other place belonging to, used by or occupied by the City of Tulsa;
B. Any public school;
C. Any charitable hospital;
D. Any private residence or domicile;
E. Any property of the employer except that plant, office, yard or place of business concerning employment in which such labor dispute exists; or
F. The property of any person other than the employer with whom such labor dispute exists.
SECTION 1703. CONSPIRING TO CAUSE UNLAWFUL PICKETING
It shall be an offense for any person or persons to combine, conspire to cause or procure to be done any picketing of any of the kinds declared herein to be an offense.
SECTION 1704. PICKET LINE AN OFFENSE WHERE PICKETING UNLAWFUL
It shall be an offense for any person to advise, counsel, be a part of or otherwise participate in any picket line at any place at which picketing is unlawful or at any time when picketing is being conducted in an unlawful manner.
Ch. 17, Pg. 3 Title 27 - Penal Code Supp. 6 (1/1/00)
SECTION 1705. PENALTY
Unless otherwise provided for in this chapter, any person violating any of the provisions of this chapter shall be guilty of an offense and upon conviction shall be punished by a fine of not more than TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS ($200.00), excluding costs, fees and assessments.
Ord. Nos. 15523, 19605
Quote from: patric on March 21, 2009, 10:57:33 AM
The carpenters union has hired dozens of homeless people to stand in for union members to wage a "shame" campaign against a nonunion contractor, a Tulsa World investigation shows.
The Local 943 Carpenters Union has organized a 2-year effort to coerce Green Country Interiors Inc. to pay union wages and benefits to its construction workers, said David Hannagan, president and part owner of Green Country.
During the past two years, the union has employed about 200 individuals served by the Iron Gate program housed at Trinity Episcopal Church, said Wiley Lee, a spokesman for the carpenter's union.
When asked if the homeless workers earn union pay and benefits, Lee said the workers are temporary employees without a benefits package because of their status.
In addition to hanging the banners, the union is sending letters to potential Hannagan customers, warning them that they will see banners showing up at their businesses if they hire Hannagan, according to records obtained by the World.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090321_11_A1_Agroup796430
I would think GC Interiors would have some sort of protection from a disruption of trade from these DB's at the local 943. I for one won't employ a union carpenter. If they are paying these protestors cash they are skirting tax laws, intentionally avoiding paying a union wage and benefits to these people. It also pisses me off they are wasting dues-paying laborers money on a campaign that is increasingly more annoying.
Interesting, it appears by definition it is not a labor dispute:
QuoteB. Labor Dispute shall mean and include any and all disputes between an employer and his or its employees, and also all negotiations or efforts of trade unions and labor organizations of every kind to enter into or to continue any contract or contracts with an employer with reference to the terms or conditions of labor or the selection or recognition of a bargaining agent, regardless of whether there is any actual dispute between such employer and his or its then employees.
The person picketing are not employees of anyone, they are independent subcontractors of the union.
The union members are not employees of any of the businesses they are picketing.
They are also not negotiating to enter into a contract with an employer with regards to the terms or conditions of labor.
They are protesting an unrelated party for choosing a different contractor. By definition (as per above), not a labor dispute.
- - -
Similarily, you can not picket every location some other contractor does work:
Quote[It shall be unlawful to picket] E. Any property of the employer except that plant, office, yard or place of business concerning employment in which such labor dispute exists
There is no work being performed at Southern Hills. By their own admission they picket anywhere the officials of that company might frequent. By statute that's just harassment.
I can see them out of office window and can often times hear them when they start their drumming or blowing those damn whistles.
Many times I have considered rigging up some sort of launcher, catapult, something to lob water balloons at them. Then I realize the winds downtown would make getting an accurate shot nearly impossible.
They were back down there. Talking to them was not effective. The people that are doing the protesting are just employees and gave the party line to questions. Canned answers and would not deviate from them. They are "just trying to get attention" with the noisemakers.
Today I have seen them at the Mayo, Hillcrest, and at TU.
The contractor that was chosen over the Wichita one for the Mayo has stated the project will be done ahead of schedule and on budget. The opening has been moved up from December to August. So I doubt the building owners are upset with the contractor they chose:
http://www.tulsabusiness.com/article.asp?aID=33928034.2109751.632853.3914088.1327615.498&aID2=48672
Construction on Skelly Stadium at U Tulsa has been done for more than 6 months. There is NO construction project that I am aware of that would even use carpenters at this point (site work for a new Arts center, masonry on the library, and some grounds work is all that is going on that I know of). Other than convincing the University never to allow their contractor to bid on projects - I'm not sure what this will accomplish.
I have no information on what is going on at Hillcrest.
They are also at Southern Hills. Where there is no carpentry work being done, but the owner of a company they don't like goes for lunch. Which is, of course, not part of protesting a labor dispute in any way either. IT is simply harassing a person they do not like.
And I don't really know what their problem is with IBC bank. But all the instances i know of are junk, so I'll assume that's junk too.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on March 25, 2009, 08:46:24 AM
Interesting, it appears by definition it is not a labor dispute:
The person picketing are not employees of anyone, they are independent subcontractors of the union.
The union members are not employees of any of the businesses they are picketing.
They are also not negotiating to enter into a contract with an employer with regards to the terms or conditions of labor.
They are protesting an unrelated party for choosing a different contractor. By definition (as per above), not a labor dispute.
- - -
Similarily, you can not picket every location some other contractor does work:
There is no work being performed at Southern Hills. By their own admission they picket anywhere the officials of that company might frequent. By statute that's just harassment.
You don't think they'd win a first amendment challenge if they were fined or arrested for holding those banners? (at least up until they started making a racket in addition to holding the signs)
While I haven't seen the other locations, when I've seen them at TU they're just quietly holding their signs and leave some room on the sidewalk for a person to walk past.
It's okay Cannon, even the employees of IBC are clueless why they are getting picketed.
Quote from: nathanm on March 25, 2009, 11:51:16 AM
You don't think they'd win a first amendment challenge if they were fined or arrested for holding those banners? (at least up until they started making a racket in addition to holding the signs)
While I haven't seen the other locations, when I've seen them at TU they're just quietly holding their signs and leave some room on the sidewalk for a person to walk past.
I'm not entirely sure. It appears the term "labor dispute" is defined by statute/ordinance. A person is not free to harass a person nor disseminate false information. If you did not sleep with a prostitute, I can not stand in front of your office for months trying to turn away your customers by screaming that you did. Here, there appears to be no labor dispute by definition.
They are not so much attempting to strike or protest as punish a business for selecting a different contractor. They are certainly at least walking the line between their free speech and the Mayo's right to be free of organized harassment and the dissemination of false information. If the banners said "failed to hire a union contractor" they would be on much firmer ground, but IMHO still bordering on plain harassment.
I do not think it is the governments proper place to interfere with their free speech. But if the parties of the harassment sought injunction relief attempting to stop the dissemination of false information, nuisance, or harassment I think they would have a legitimate cause of action. Certainly where they are disrupting the entire area and where they failed to follow guidelines for holding an "event."
But . . . I readily admit to never practicing in the area of 1st Amendment rights. So I really don't know. I am a rabid supporter of free speech rights but understand those rights must be balanced against other compelling interests. When in doubt, free speech should win. This case would certainly be an interesting one.
Something is clearly happening to resolve the noise issue.
Today they were pretty quiet and didn't beat their drum (maybe the little drummer boy had an tummy ache). No one blew whistles and only one lady clanged a cowbell, but seemed to stop after a while (it was probably a workout).
Maybe they will be quiet now. Maybe the talk with Cannon Fodder fixed everything. He has that intimidating look and style.
His father was wise to name him after a weapon.
RM,
Has it ever dawned on you that the union might eventually tell them to hold the Mayo and move on somewhere else?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 25, 2009, 01:49:31 PM
Something is clearly happening to resolve the noise issue.
Today they were pretty quiet and didn't beat their drum (maybe the little drummer boy had an tummy ache). No one blew whistles and only one lady clanged a cowbell, but seemed to stop after a while (it was probably a workout).
Maybe they will be quiet now. Maybe the talk with Cannon Fodder fixed everything. He has that intimidating look and style.
His father was wise to name him after a weapon.
I don't think it's any resolution, I think Conan is right, they are getting exhausted. Sounds like the protesters may be union. They could strike against the union and demand better hours, or a shelter, or more pay and better noisemakers that require less repetitive motion. I hate to see labor taken advantage of like this.
Oh yeah, they hired non-union labor to protest for the union. Well they should form their own union "The National Union Protesters Union." That way they could have better pay, better hours and more benefits. Long negotiations on noisemaker design, and harassment tactics would help too. The union could provide incentive packages based not on work performance, but on tenure. Comfortable chairs and mechanical sign holders would help to ensure comfort and above all SAFETY.
After all, SAFETY should be the NUPU's mission.
Quote from: wavoka on March 25, 2009, 10:24:54 AM
I can see them out of office window and can often times hear them when they start their drumming or blowing those damn whistles.
Many times I have considered rigging up some sort of launcher, catapult, something to lob water balloons at them. Then I realize the winds downtown would make getting an accurate shot nearly impossible.
Wait a minute! There's a game in there some place!
But seriously, I would think that the protest noises would violate Tulsa City Health Ordinances as they relate to noise. Title 24, Section 103-F:
A public health nusence would be classified as:
F. All noises, sounds, or vibrations of such a character or duration so as to be
unreasonably loud or disturbing to the peace and quiet of persons of ordinary
sensibilities, including but not limited to those persons inside a building or structure
used in whole or in part as a domicile, residence, or dwelling;
You would just have to prove that you are a person of "ordinary sensibility." ::)
As I understand, you would report this to the Health Department and they would be required to investigate and take action.
One private company is mad because another company is selling the product cheaper than them. They decide to go protest the customer.
This is like McDonalds being mad at Wendy's because they undercut the "Dollar Menu" by only charging 99 cents for a hamburger, then stalking me for choosing Wendy's.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 27, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
One private company is mad because another company is selling the product cheaper than them. They decide to go protest the customer.
This is like McDonalds being mad at Wendy's because they undercut the "Dollar Menu" by only charging 99 cents for a hamburger, then stalking me for choosing Wendy's.
I think that's happened before. (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/images/0513-11.jpg)
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 27, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
One private company is mad because another company is selling the product cheaper than them. They decide to go protest the customer.
This is like McDonalds being mad at Wendy's because they undercut the "Dollar Menu" by only charging 99 cents for a hamburger, then stalking me for choosing Wendy's.
and...(http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Scary/zombie_ronald_mcdonald.jpg)
Quote from: Townsend on March 27, 2009, 02:54:16 PM
and...(http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Scary/zombie_ronald_mcdonald.jpg)
Beat me too it. I was saving that one.
For some reason, that clown is kinda hot. If it's a girl clown. Well, and wasn't munching on an arm. And, of course, probably best if it wasn't dress up like a clown.
But otherwise, she's kinda cute.
/issues
Fashia cannon fodder, that wins you some +K. Like you need more.
Protesters mentioned in today's Tulsa World:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090406_11_A1_TheUni572271
Doesn't have all the details but it sounds to me like the anti-protester sentiment is growing. At least against this group.
I was told business owners in the area are afraid to complain, lest they be subject to protest.
I think that may be my favorite Tulsa World article EVER!
"Union protesters at the Mayo have called the police, alleging that Green Country workers were spitting and flipping boogers on them from the upper windows of the Mayo, records show. "
How good do you have to be to hit a protester with a booger from 8 stories up. I mean, you have to correct for wind, and calculate distance based on the relative weight of the booger.
. . . and what a booger! I mean, if you're a protester, and you can actually see a booger coming at you, that's got to be some booger. I'd catch it and take it to the police for booger DNA analysis.
Did you catch the line in the story that, "The union also paid $341,000 to Midwest Drywall Co., of Wichita, Kan., for recruiting members."
That sounds very odd to me. The national union is paying an out-of-state carpentry business to recruit union members in Oklahoma? Couldn't they pay an Oklahoma company to recruit Oklahoma workers? Are all the union carpenters in Oklahoma just jerks who can't make friends?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on April 06, 2009, 08:59:18 PM
Did you catch the line in the story that, "The union also paid $341,000 to Midwest Drywall Co., of Wichita, Kan., for recruiting members."
That sounds very odd to me. The national union is paying an out-of-state carpentry business to recruit union members in Oklahoma? Couldn't they pay an Oklahoma company to recruit Oklahoma workers? Are all the union carpenters in Oklahoma just jerks who can't make friends?
Perhaps they had to hire these "booger catchers" because the union carpenters in Oklahoma were so busy? Isn't that a good sign?
They have so much work that they can't take time away from their busy schedule to protest work going to a competitor. Irony?
I mean, there can really only be a small number reasons for hiring non-union "booger catchers":
1. Too busy working to protest.
2. Not enough work, but too lazy to protest.
3. Carpenters want to work and make money, union wants to protest and spend worker's money.
4. Union see's an opportunity during an economic downturn to exude a presence in a non-union state to build support. Union chooses company out of a hat to harass. Union has to grease palms with some serious money to get organizers motivated. Organizers don't want to spend any real money on good protesters (college student mush-heads, local liberal orgs) so they hire homeless for the price of a bottle of wine and a Quizno's.
Remember who we're dealing with. You know why I think it's #4?
Do a news search (on the carpenter's union) and see the other non-union states it's happening in.
Have these guys actually been protesting lately? They've finally given up protesting in front of the Crowne Plaza the last two weeks I've walked past... then again, construction there has been finished for about a year or so.
Quote from: wordherder on April 08, 2009, 02:59:58 PM
Have these guys actually been protesting lately? They've finally given up protesting in front of the Crowne Plaza the last two weeks I've walked past... then again, construction there has been finished for about a year or so.
They were out yelling at the mayo this afternoon and tooting a horn or something.
Just drove by Southern Hills. They are sitting in the drainage ditch smoking cigarettes, with their sign leaning on the guard rail of the street.
I notice that the signs are made out of a PVC pipe frame. I'm going to email the carpenter's union to make sure that they used approved union Pipe Fitters to build the signs. I'll let you know what I find out.
I wish I had my camera today. On my way back from lunch I passed by the Union Protester in front of Southern Hills.
He is seated in a lawn chair, fast asleep, with his hand tied to the sign using a small piece of twine or something (because they have to be holding the signs, otherwise they are in violation of sign ordinances). I gave a long honk (to show my support of course ;)) and he almost tumbled into the drainage ditch.
I think they have accomplished their goal. Sleeping people protesting. Excellent PR for union labor.
Way to go boys!
Quote from: Gaspar on May 11, 2009, 12:25:53 PM
I wish I had my camera today. On my way back from lunch I passed by the Union Protester in front of Southern Hills.
He is seated in a lawn chair, fast asleep, with his hand tied to the sign using a small piece of twine or something (because they have to be holding the signs, otherwise they are in violation of sign ordinances). I gave a long honk (to show my support of course ;)) and he almost tumbled into the drainage ditch.
I think they have accomplished their goal. Sleeping people protesting. Excellent PR for union labor.
Way to go boys!
Now that is some funny S@#%
The scaffolding seems conveniently placed at Mayo to run them off. ;D
I thought the scaffolding was serendipitous...though I believe it is necessary b/c of the work that is being done to the building's facade.
I just hope that Topeca is doing OK. After months of disruptive fake protesting on their doorstep, they now have a huge scaffold in front of their business.
If you work or play downtown, stop by Topeca for crepes or a cup of coffee and show your support for a cool, independent, family-owned business. The coffee, crepes, and pastries are incredible.
That is darn good coffee. I'm so spoiled by my Topeca that everything else is left wanting. Personal favorite is the Ayutopeque.
Manzano has been our "house coffee" for the past few years, but we have started buying the Ayutopeque, too--after the barista told us how great this year's crop was.
Both are delightful...and allow you to appreciate the concept of buying a single type of bean from a single crop in a single year. (Just one advantage of Topeca's "seed-to-cup" philosophy.)
It's much more like wine, where you appreciate the differences from one year's vintage to another. (As opposed to Starbucks, where they seem to take beans from all over the place, throw them together, and roast them until they have a burnt, but consistent, flavor.)
I was in there this morning and asked two of the baristas how business has been since the scafolding was erected and they actually said they've been busy, it hasn't affected their business...so far. I would recommend going there if you're downtown even if you're not in the mood for coffee they serve a nice lunch (never had breakfast there). They're also open on the weekends.
I've found it a great stop for an iced tea on a day to warm for afternoon coffee. Amazing how after drinking iced tea from QT you forget that some teas have a LOT of flavor (and caffeine). [no offense QT]
QT needs better iced tea. My QT usually serves it still pretty warm and it usually melts the ice pretty quick.
Iced tea is odd.
You heat it then cool it. Then add sour lemon and sweet sugar.
Make up your mind.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 12, 2009, 08:58:41 AM
Iced tea is odd.
You heat it then cool it. Then add sour lemon and sweet sugar.
Make up your mind.
You could try Moon Tea. It's alot like Sun Tea, you put several teabags in a glass/clear jar with water on the front porch and let the sun make the tea rather than use hot water. Moon Tea uses solar radiation bounced off the moon. It takes a little longer but the acids don't seem to be as present as when using hot water. I think it's even a bit better than sun tea.
No kidding, just put the tea in the water and wait. After it's tea, put it in the cooler and you have iced tea that's never been hot.
I make compost tea. I put a glob of compost from my pile in a sun tea jar and leave it in the sun for a few days, then strain the liquid into a reused spray bottle. It is a magical plant food for my indoor plants.
Back on topic...I saw the protestors just moved across the street onto ONEOK property to protest the Mayo Hotel owners for not hiring union workers (even though they are a private business and have the right to go with any carpenter they want).
Protesting on someone else's property across the street using non-union workers...If I wasn't true I would say it was a parody.
Anyone see the full-page ad in today's World against these guys?
It goes over the top citing the Declaration of Independence for no apparent reason as well as the right to free speech, before condemning "local labor unions and their out of state allies" that are protesting and throwing around unfounded personal attacks. They also mention using the homeless population. The ad is signed by a HUGE number of local businesses, including the Cherokee Nation, Flintco, Manhattan construction, Fleming Building, Trigon and many others. 49 if I'm counting correctly.
This ad makes me uneasy... on the one hand, these protesters are idiots. On the other, the ad seems to go out of its way to slag unions in general, rather than just this specific union.
At the very least, it seems to indicate that this union has really pissed off a big chunk of local builders.
These people have relocated to the front of the downtown Convention Center, across the street from the Doubletree.
What are they protesting there?
BTW: work on the Mayo is on budget, going very fast, and looks great. I doubt they regret their choice of labor.
Hey, I just realized something!
The Tulsa City Ordinances still define the "Main Mall" as "Main Street between 3rd and 6th and 5th Street between Boston and Denver."
Within the Main Mall (per Title 26, Section 202) "It shall be an offense for any person to perform or conduct any of the following acts or events within or upon the Mall or Plaza unless such act or event is authorized by a permit:
"A. To conduct or hold any theatrical entertainment performance, motion picture exhibition, parade, procession, or to post or display any sign, banner or advertisement."
Did those "union" protestors get a permit?
If not, they better hurry up (Tul-Center is part of DTU)....
"Applications for an Event Permit on the Mall shall be referred by the Director to Tul-Center, Inc., the manager and operator of the Mall under contract with the City. Tul-Center, Inc. shall prepare and submit to the Council for its review, approval or revision the rules, regulations, standards and criteria for reviewing applications for a Mall Event Permit. Upon the Council's approval, such rules, regulations, standards and criteria shall be filed in the Office of the City Clerk, and Tul-Center, Inc. shall review applications and issue Mall Event Permits in accordance therewith without the payment of a fee...."
Quote from: FOTD on March 18, 2009, 06:45:38 PM
Who is Dave Hannagan and why is there a protestor placed in front of Southern Hills CC? He's been there off and on for months.
Southern Hills fights back:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090822_298_0_Southe64574
I am soo gonna use this local sheetrock company for the Deco Museum if I can. Those protestors with their signs catch your eye and are great publicity. Everyone in this town knows whats going on with this and arent buying the "protest" thing anyway, so why not get some free advertising? 8) Plus its helping to put some extra people to work in town.
Quote from: TheArtist on August 22, 2009, 05:22:28 PM
I am soo gonna use this local sheetrock company for the Deco Museum if I can. Those protestors with their signs catch your eye and are great publicity. Everyone in this town knows whats going on with this and arent buying the "protest" thing anyway, so why not get some free advertising? 8) Plus its helping to put some extra people to work in town.
Sounds like a plan..... go for it.
I'm bothered by the idea that a particular type of protest can be stifled by the courts. It seems that everyone agrees it's unethical for a union to hire people to walk a picket line, though the practice is not illegal. Yet where do we draw the line at suppressing free speech?
Suppose an individual or a group decided to protest the takeover of the federal government by extraterrestrials who arrived here in UFOs. On its face, it's silly, but they still have a right under the First Amendment to do so. If they were noisily protesting outside the White House, they'd likely be allowed to continue. But would that be true if they were being noisy and obnoxious outside a wealthy country club patronized by the local oligarchs? As we can see, their protest would be suppressed through the courts. They still have the right to protest...just somewhere else, somewhere conveniently out of sight and earshot.
Mind you, I'm not commenting on the merits of the carpenter's union and it's hired protesters. I'm more concerned about the fundamental right to stand up and say those things that are unpopular.
Good comments, Ed. I don't know what the limits of free speech should be. Clearly, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.
This protest seems to be just harrassment to me. One company has hired yellers to protest the owner of a competing company, going to his job sites, his neighborhood and even a club where he is a member.
How can we allow this? Why should we allow it to continue for another day?
There's a difference in free speech and a conspiracy of psychotic behavior, which is what this union is engaging in.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 23, 2009, 10:04:03 AM
There's a difference in free speech and a conspiracy of psychotic behavior, which is what this union is engaging in.
Are the SHCC protests directed at the club or are they directed at a particular club member? If it's the latter, then I agree with Conan.
Perhaps the contractor(s) could hire people to picket the Union Hall.
Quote from: guido911 on August 23, 2009, 10:51:58 AM
Are the SHCC protests directed at the club or are they directed at a particular club member? If it's the latter, then I agree with Conan.
I think they are directed at being obnoxious... it appears to me that the Union's goal here is dues.
Quote from: Vision 2025 on September 03, 2009, 03:31:20 PM
I think they are directed at being obnoxious... it appears to me that the Union's goal here is dues.
No where near as obnoxious as the racist radicals http://www.theusapatriots.com/ disrupting our government and the need for change.
http://www.newson6.com/Global/category.asp?C=121535&clipId=4073692&autostart=true Both sides show up at free speech health care rally!FOTD, start your own thread on these topics or add them to an appropriate thread, and quit crapping other threads with irrelevant information regarding the topic being discussed. If you wish to discuss the Carpenter's Union, feel free, but knock off the disruptive behavior or go play in another sand box.
Mista Moderator: Please show some consistency. Thank you.
Quote from: FOTD on September 03, 2009, 03:53:04 PM
No where near as obnoxious as the racist radicals http://www.theusapatriots.com/ disrupting our government and the need for change.
http://www.newson6.com/Global/category.asp?C=121535&clipId=4073692&autostart=true Both sides show up at free speech health care rally!
What the crap are you talking about?
I vote the previous attempted thread jack be stricken.
Quote from: Townsend on September 03, 2009, 03:55:41 PM
What the crap are you talking about?
I vote the previous attempted thread jack be stricken.
Free speech? Thread Jacked?
Quote from: FOTD on September 03, 2009, 03:57:32 PM
Free speech? Thread Jacked?
Most definitely a thread-jack
Quote from: Moderator on September 03, 2009, 04:00:54 PM
Most definitely a thread-jack
Yes. But it's all about the right of free speech. Interesting to see and read about who defends whose rights....
Trying to get banned today?
I haven't seen these protesters in a while, where did they go?
Quote from: custosnox on September 03, 2009, 04:26:16 PM
I haven't seen these protesters in a while, where did they go?
Main and 6th at the bank...along with people from Iron Gate down the street...the homeless ministries.
Quote from: Townsend on September 03, 2009, 04:33:26 PM
Main and 6th at the bank...along with people from Iron Gate down the street...the homeless ministries.
Ah, guess I haven't been going to the right places to see them then lol. I might make me up a sign and go have a sit in with them, hehe.
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/custosnox/harrassment.jpg)
Quote from: custosnox on September 03, 2009, 04:26:16 PM
I haven't seen these protesters in a while, where did they go?
"Protest IBC on white bread, hold the Mayo"
Some U of Tulsa students did a small counter protest the other day, holding up signs that read "Shame on Meaningless Protesters" or something like that. Kinda made me chuckle.
Quote from: custosnox on September 03, 2009, 04:26:16 PM
I haven't seen these protesters in a while, where did they go?
I saw a small group at 61ST and Yale on Tuesday and again Thursday
The protestors are at it again...
This time the Carpenter's union is hiring people to protest at Edison Middle School because Tulsa Public Schools put a contract out for bid, the contract was won by Flintco, and Flintco is using some other company as a sub-contractor... so they protest Edison Middle School. The school had to do a release because so many parantes wondered what the disruption was and so many kids talked about the distraction.
NEVER HIRE THESE PEOPLE. The best way to make them go away is to make them go out of business. It cannot happen soon enough for me... and I think unions can serve a very useful function (read: in Oklahoma that makes me a union supporter).
wait, is it Green Country Interiors that is protesting (harassing) or Midwest Drywall?
It's protest season. You don't expect them to protest in the cold do you?
I will be protesting on Friday. I'm going to stand in the middle of a pond and protest any fish that refuse to get on my hook.
Shame on those fish!
Quote from: custosnox on April 03, 2012, 06:31:24 PM
wait, is it Green Country Interiors that is protesting (harassing) or Midwest Drywall?
You are correct. Sorry for the confusion. IN theory Green Country is being protested.
What irritates me is they are not really protesting Green Country Interiors. They are harassing all of their clients and giving the impression that they did something wrong. IN reality, TPS probably couldn't award the bid to the union shop if they wanted to (standard bid procedure - lowest qualified bidder wins. Presumably they either werent qualified or didn't have the low bid).
Why not protest Flintco - who apperently is the company that keeps hiring the company these guys hate? Instead of a hotel, a bank, a University, and an elementary school?
Just saw a photo of this same group protesting a business in Wisconsin... these people are out in some real cold!
Under the name "North Central States Regional Council of Carpenters" they were using the same PVC-framed signs we saw here.
The state DOT ordered them off of a right-of-way, but they went back the next day.
Now, if one of them were dressed in a Mumu and saying bad things about a bank, we could send them a helicopter full of riot troops to clean up the protest. ;)
Quote from: patric on November 14, 2012, 09:34:15 PM
Just saw a photo of this same group protesting a business in Wisconsin... these people are out in some real cold!
Under the name "North Central States Regional Council of Carpenters" they were using the same PVC-framed signs we saw here.
The state DOT ordered them off of a right-of-way, but they went back the next day.
Now, if one of them were dressed in a Mumu and saying bad things about a bank, we could send them a helicopter full of riot troops to clean up the protest. ;)
We saw them either in Kansas or Colorado a couple of weeks ago, seemed out of place wherever we were. Sorry for the lack of specificity but one of those whirlwind trips where you don't sleep much for 48 hours.
Maybe the Westboro Baptist people are doing some subcontracting.
Quote from: cynical on November 15, 2012, 09:01:42 AM
Maybe the Westboro Baptist people are doing some subcontracting.
We should start a rumor that Westboro opposes labor unions, make the protesters protest the protestors
"Shame on God Hates Fags"
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 15, 2012, 09:48:07 AM
We should start a rumor that Westboro opposes labor unions, make the protesters protest the protestors
"Shame on God Hates Fags"
Thread winner!
Get a rope and let's hang them. Who needs a yearly paid vacation to be able the enjoy their short span of life, who has a right to demand equal pay for the product of their labor, why would any one be entitle to 7 paid holidays each year, who needs a safe place to work or live or bargain for paid medical insurance, or introducing new ways to teach your children. The solution lies with all union members taking their paid vacation during a single week then the employers and desk jockeys' will be able to run the industrials that produced wealth, now moved to foreign soils, disrupting the taxing system and creating the "Fiscal Cliff" we are in free fall from. The paper economy where the product of the total gross national product taxed at 100% would require years to pay off the assumed obligations of more than $200 trillion dollars.
Will China sell us 1" rope on credit?
Quote from: shadows on November 15, 2012, 02:39:20 PM
Get a rope and let's hang them. Who needs a yearly paid vacation to be able the enjoy their short span of life, who has a right to demand equal pay for the product of their labor, why would any one be entitle to 7 paid holidays each year, who needs a safe place to work or live or bargain for paid medical insurance, or introducing new ways to teach your children. The solution lies with all union members taking their paid vacation during a single week then the employers and desk jockeys' will be able to run the industrials that produced wealth, now moved to foreign soils, disrupting the taxing system and creating the "Fiscal Cliff" we are in free fall from. The paper economy where the product of the total gross national product taxed at 100% would require years to pay off the assumed obligations of more than $200 trillion dollars.
Will China sell us 1" rope on credit?
Does anyone here speak jive?
Quote from: Townsend on November 15, 2012, 02:57:33 PM
Does anyone here speak jive?
"chump don't want no help chump don't get no help"...
Quote from: Townsend on November 15, 2012, 02:57:33 PM
Does anyone here speak jive?
There seems to be a very limited numbers of posters that can read in the past and present archives of the societies formed for a short time before they spent themselves into poverty that blazed the trail we are following going back 4,000 years, let alone the paper economy we have acquired in the last half of our 200 years of existence that are being well documented as leading mathematic professors has tried to educate us.
Quote from: Hoss on November 15, 2012, 03:22:21 PM
"chump don't want no help chump don't get no help"...
No pic of Barbara? Heretic.
(http://www.avitable.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/ispeakjive.jpg)
Quote from: shadows on November 15, 2012, 02:39:20 PM
Will China sell us 1" rope on credit?
Wouldnt have to if we could grow our own hemp.
Quote from: Conan71 on November 15, 2012, 07:11:38 PM
No pic of Barbara? Heretic.
(http://www.avitable.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/ispeakjive.jpg)
Nah, I could have pulled the Youtube clip, but then someone who posts on here wouldn't have a job...
Quote from: Vashta Nerada on November 15, 2012, 07:18:28 PM
Wouldnt have to if we could grow our own hemp.
_________________________________________________________________
Understand all hemp grown in US is reserved for smoking. Remember the fields of hemp in Kansas in WWII and the money spent to eradicate it from the fence rows up to 10 years ago.
Quote from: Vashta Nerada on November 15, 2012, 07:18:28 PM
Wouldnt have to if we could grow our own hemp.
Doesn't matter, they'll keep selling us crap on credit (in our currency, no less) because it keeps their populace content despite the lack of political freedom. If the city-bound peasants got there and couldn't find jobs, they'd pose a bit of a problem. Eventually, this dynamic will change, but not until it suits them. Whether or not they get repaid is of secondary importance to keeping the rabble quiet and keeping their pockets lined.
Quote from: nathanm on November 15, 2012, 10:52:50 PM
Doesn't matter, they'll keep selling us crap on credit (in our currency, no less) because it keeps their populace content despite the lack of political freedom. If the city-bound peasants got there and couldn't find jobs, they'd pose a bit of a problem. Eventually, this dynamic will change, but not until it suits them. Whether or not they get repaid is of secondary importance to keeping the rabble quiet and keeping their pockets lined.
_____________________________________________________________________________
China: Land of technology with a society thousands of years old, with a population that could be counted as equal to 1/3 of the population of this planet, with a great need of space to expand, through our greed we buy their product with paper that allows them to buy our quality of life, utilities and lands. Like Japan's pre WWII that purchased our scrap metals, China has christened its first aircraft carrier. The sleeping giant, of Ripley's marching Chinese has awaken and we have gone to asleep. They operate as a national union while we try seek and operate under a very divided nation. Our unions may not be the answer but it is the best solution that has been offered.
Quote from: shadows on November 16, 2012, 03:44:58 PM
China: Land of technology with a society thousands of years old, with a population that could be counted as equal to 1/3 of the population of this planet, with a great need of space to expand, through our greed we buy their product with paper that allows them to buy our quality of life, utilities and lands. Like Japan's pre WWII that purchased our scrap metals, China has christened its first aircraft carrier. The sleeping giant, of Ripley's marching Chinese has awaken and we have gone to asleep. They operate as a national union while we try seek and operate under a very divided nation. Our unions may not be the answer but it is the best solution that has been offered.
China's entering a recession.
Quotes'mofo butter layin' me to da' BONE! Jackin' me up... tight me!
Quote from: shadows on November 16, 2012, 03:44:58 PM
China has christened its first aircraft carrier.
An aircraft carrier that can't launch or land fixed wing aircraft. It's a helicopter boat. Besides, we have around eight.
Quote from: Townsend on November 16, 2012, 03:49:23 PM
China's entering a recession.
____________________________________________________________________________
Well: Welcome to China on joining US, in our continued recession that is baling its failed economy out by listing the China purchases of US land, Unities and etc with our unsecured paper money that we are calling a part of our GNP. We list as an improving economy 70% to food and fast food sales and gov jobs and their guaranteed salary increases. The unions are dedicated to see that the working poor, that are the final payee, be recognized and freed from bondage.
What was that name used by Buggs Bunny about leaders?
Quote from: nathanm on November 16, 2012, 03:50:31 PM
An aircraft carrier that can't launch or land fixed wing aircraft. It's a helicopter boat. Besides, we have around eight.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
True: but the awaking giant, inventor of gun powder and rockets in the present world has no need for airplanes. When any society has the manpower, manufacturing expertise and engineering being displayed, the proper naming should be ROCKET CARRIER.
Our Unions we are flaming may be our last salvation.
Quote from: shadows on November 16, 2012, 06:35:48 PM
True: but the awaking giant, inventor of gun powder and rockets in the present world has no need for airplanes. When any society has the manpower, manufacturing expertise and engineering being displayed, the proper naming should be ROCKET CARRIER.
Yeah, we have a lot of those, too. They travel under the sea and can annihilate whole countries. China is not presently a military threat except in the sense that they also have nuclear weapons. They may become one at some point in the future.
Quote from: nathanm on November 16, 2012, 07:11:47 PM
Yeah, we have a lot of those, too. They travel under the sea and can annihilate whole countries. China is not presently a military threat except in the sense that they also have nuclear weapons. They may become one at some point in the future.
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Yes we do have several but too many lie on the bottom of the ocean below where the battle of midway was fought.
True but our foreign policy of becoming an army of assassin leaves many doubts in the minds of the mid-east and east. The working poor, unionizing in order to continue the freedom promised in a way of life has become a pawn in a trade war between the East and West. The intended brotherhood, among its members has been shattered by the greed of their non-union fellow citizens to live an equal livelihood of existence. We are now seeking to declare the working poor members a nuisance when they ask for their heritage.
Quote from: shadows on November 16, 2012, 09:44:30 PM
We are now seeking to declare the working poor members a nuisance when they ask for their heritage.
We crossed that bridge a long, long time ago.
Quote from: nathanm on November 17, 2012, 12:06:04 PM
We crossed that bridge a long, long time ago.
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A pontoon bridge must have been installed because to day I received a letter asking if I had any property for sale. Would assume that the holders of the unsecured paper money are checking the computer rolls to find property without mortgages that can be exchanged with quite deeds. It does not require very much intelligence to surmise that with more than 220 trillion dollars in total obligations, including gov pensions and other obligations that have been introduced, secured only by the anticipated increase in taxes on future generations. The introduction of new money in any economy must come from saleable items produced by the society. We have used the natural resources stolen from the American natives that increases our economy but they have found our weakness which has ballooned their economy. It has come to where there is no solution to our free falling over the "Fiscal Cliff" as now we in the air, well on the way down.
The union worker of the society of the working poor is a nuisance because they don't want to have such a obligation placed in the way of securing a normal lively hood.