I was driving down Riverside yesterday and noticed they were moving dirt on the land across the street from the casino. Does anyone know what's going on there?
It's actually going to be used for parking for casino employees to allow for more customer parking at the new casino.
I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.
Out of boredom and curiosity I visited that casino on Wenesday nite. Hadn't been there since it was just a bingo hall way back. The visit opened my eyes and explains a lot about what has happened to Tulsa. What I saw was truly disturbing. It was the stuff from which bizarre cartoonists derive their characters. Wouldn't surprise me if they are taking in a million a day just in that one casino. What other business in town draws this kind of traffic on a Wednesday nite, in the buckle of the Bible belt? Throw in three others around town and you hear that huge sucking sound that Perot described.
Make note. OKC has lots of different entertainment opportunities spread around the city. Museums, theatre, sports, restaurants and shopping. They have the same demographics, similar income, education, COI, etc. Yeah, they're more cowpoke, surrounded by plain topography and connected with a maze of highways, but still pretty prosperous and farther along with the kinds of development we desire.
The glaring difference is that they only have one small casino that has little impact on the metro. Think about it. I don't begrudge them- I know our ancestors took their land and treated them vilely- I support free enterprise- I know they employ and redirect profits into the community. But is this what Tulsa is now?
I heard that it is only going to be a parking lot temporarily until construction is complete at the casino.
^^Look at the TMAPC minutes from 12/17/2008. The lot is suppose to be used for 2 years. Any additional time will require additional TMAPC approval.
Once the new building opens, they have to remove the existing building, then start on phase 2 (hotel, etc) and I'm betting this lot is to cover them during some of this work.
Let me start by saying that I dislike the casinos for many reasons, not least of which is the hassle of crossing the entrances to the Creek Casino on the bike path.
Waterboy has an interesting hypothesis comparing OKC and Tulsa, but it is based on flawed data. There are plenty of popular casinos in the OKC area. The largest in the state is the WindRiver Casino in Norman. Other large casinos are Lucky Star in Concho (El Reno) and the Kickapoo Casino in Harrah. The casino at Remington is an afterthought, as Waterboy suggests. And the Shawnees have plans for a large casino on I-35 between Wilshire Blvd. and Britton Road.
With the exception of the NBA team, the entertainment options in Tulsa are roughly equivalent to those in OKC. They support their sports teams far better than Tulsans ever have, but Tulsans have supported the performing arts better than they do in OKC. They have one part-time symphony orchestra, no opera company, and a small, struggling ballet company. Tulsa has two orchestras, a well-respected regional opera company, and a highly-regarded ballet company that takes its show to OKC on a regular basis. The theater options are about the same. Celebrity Attractions, based in Tulsa, stages major Broadway touring productions in both cities. Both have local theater companies, but OKC offsets its lack of an opera company by having the Lyric Theatre producing a larger number of musicals locally.
Philbrook has a far superior collection to the OKC Museum of Art, and Gilcrease's collection is far superior to that at the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum. The expanding art museum at OU may be the equalizer. The impressionist exhibit there is not to be missed.
The Bricktown district makes a variety of entertainment alternatives convenient and walkable. This is an advantage to OKC that Tulsa has yet to match.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.
Out of boredom and curiosity I visited that casino on Wenesday nite. Hadn't been there since it was just a bingo hall way back. The visit opened my eyes and explains a lot about what has happened to Tulsa. What I saw was truly disturbing. It was the stuff from which bizarre cartoonists derive their characters. Wouldn't surprise me if they are taking in a million a day just in that one casino. What other business in town draws this kind of traffic on a Wednesday nite, in the buckle of the Bible belt? Throw in three others around town and you hear that huge sucking sound that Perot described.
Make note. OKC has lots of different entertainment opportunities spread around the city. Museums, theatre, sports, restaurants and shopping. They have the same demographics, similar income, education, COI, etc. Yeah, they're more cowpoke, surrounded by plain topography and connected with a maze of highways, but still pretty prosperous and farther along with the kinds of development we desire.
The glaring difference is that they only have one small casino that has little impact on the metro. Think about it. I don't begrudge them- I know our ancestors took their land and treated them vilely- I support free enterprise- I know they employ and redirect profits into the community. But is this what Tulsa is now?
quote:
Originally posted by cynical
Let me start by saying that I dislike the casinos for many reasons, not least of which is the hassle of crossing the entrances to the Creek Casino on the bike path.
Waterboy has an interesting hypothesis comparing OKC and Tulsa, but it is based on flawed data. There are plenty of popular casinos in the OKC area. The largest in the state is the WindRiver Casino in Norman. Other large casinos are Lucky Star in Concho (El Reno) and the Kickapoo Casino in Harrah. The casino at Remington is an afterthought, as Waterboy suggests. And the Shawnees have plans for a large casino on I-35 between Wilshire Blvd. and Britton Road.
With the exception of the NBA team, the entertainment options in Tulsa are roughly equivalent to those in OKC. They support their sports teams far better than Tulsans ever have, but Tulsans have supported the performing arts better than they do in OKC. They have one part-time symphony orchestra, no opera company, and a small, struggling ballet company. Tulsa has two orchestras, a well-respected regional opera company, and a highly-regarded ballet company that takes its show to OKC on a regular basis. The theater options are about the same. Celebrity Attractions, based in Tulsa, stages major Broadway touring productions in both cities. Both have local theater companies, but OKC offsets its lack of an opera company by having the Lyric Theatre producing a larger number of musicals locally.
Philbrook has a far superior collection to the OKC Museum of Art, and Gilcrease's collection is far superior to that at the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum. The expanding art museum at OU may be the equalizer. The impressionist exhibit there is not to be missed.
The Bricktown district makes a variety of entertainment alternatives convenient and walkable. This is an advantage to OKC that Tulsa has yet to match.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.
Out of boredom and curiosity I visited that casino on Wenesday nite. Hadn't been there since it was just a bingo hall way back. The visit opened my eyes and explains a lot about what has happened to Tulsa. What I saw was truly disturbing. It was the stuff from which bizarre cartoonists derive their characters. Wouldn't surprise me if they are taking in a million a day just in that one casino. What other business in town draws this kind of traffic on a Wednesday nite, in the buckle of the Bible belt? Throw in three others around town and you hear that huge sucking sound that Perot described.
Make note. OKC has lots of different entertainment opportunities spread around the city. Museums, theatre, sports, restaurants and shopping. They have the same demographics, similar income, education, COI, etc. Yeah, they're more cowpoke, surrounded by plain topography and connected with a maze of highways, but still pretty prosperous and farther along with the kinds of development we desire.
The glaring difference is that they only have one small casino that has little impact on the metro. Think about it. I don't begrudge them- I know our ancestors took their land and treated them vilely- I support free enterprise- I know they employ and redirect profits into the community. But is this what Tulsa is now?
I can buy some of that. I displayed some hubris. However, you've expanded the comparison to include the OKC region. Norman, El Reno, Harrah are in the "area" but not in the metro. If you make that comparison we would have to add in Okmulgee and WindRiver here too. Norman as part of the OKC area is a stretch as Norman does quite well in arts, entertainment and sports without OKC. The effect of the university balances out any casino dominance. Take BA, SS or Owasso away from Tulsa and they got squat. At least Bixby has an arena.
And no doubt the arts are more sophisticated and plentiful here cause we're not as cowboy..but... the argument still stands. Casino's do not drive OKC. More accurate to say government jobs do, but not Casinoes. Their promotions, billboards, magazine ads, TV ads etc are not dominated by gambling interests. Here, they share dominance with car dealers.
The first advertiser, sponsor or donor you better line up for a new magazine, fundraiser or special event in Tulsa had better be one of the casinoes, QT or a car dealership. Not so in OKC. (there its Chesapeake).
Its going to get worse. Visit one and see if my perception is in error.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.
There's a parking garage under the new casino and the construction site just north of the new building is going to be a huge multi-level garage. There's were mock-ups of the garage on here a couple of months back. I think Grizzle found them.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by cynical
Let me start by saying that I dislike the casinos for many reasons, not least of which is the hassle of crossing the entrances to the Creek Casino on the bike path.
Waterboy has an interesting hypothesis comparing OKC and Tulsa, but it is based on flawed data. There are plenty of popular casinos in the OKC area. The largest in the state is the WindRiver Casino in Norman. Other large casinos are Lucky Star in Concho (El Reno) and the Kickapoo Casino in Harrah. The casino at Remington is an afterthought, as Waterboy suggests. And the Shawnees have plans for a large casino on I-35 between Wilshire Blvd. and Britton Road.
With the exception of the NBA team, the entertainment options in Tulsa are roughly equivalent to those in OKC. They support their sports teams far better than Tulsans ever have, but Tulsans have supported the performing arts better than they do in OKC. They have one part-time symphony orchestra, no opera company, and a small, struggling ballet company. Tulsa has two orchestras, a well-respected regional opera company, and a highly-regarded ballet company that takes its show to OKC on a regular basis. The theater options are about the same. Celebrity Attractions, based in Tulsa, stages major Broadway touring productions in both cities. Both have local theater companies, but OKC offsets its lack of an opera company by having the Lyric Theatre producing a larger number of musicals locally.
Philbrook has a far superior collection to the OKC Museum of Art, and Gilcrease's collection is far superior to that at the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Museum. The expanding art museum at OU may be the equalizer. The impressionist exhibit there is not to be missed.
The Bricktown district makes a variety of entertainment alternatives convenient and walkable. This is an advantage to OKC that Tulsa has yet to match.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I thought they already owned that land. They need to address their parking but I guess its too much to ask for multi-level.
Out of boredom and curiosity I visited that casino on Wenesday nite. Hadn't been there since it was just a bingo hall way back. The visit opened my eyes and explains a lot about what has happened to Tulsa. What I saw was truly disturbing. It was the stuff from which bizarre cartoonists derive their characters. Wouldn't surprise me if they are taking in a million a day just in that one casino. What other business in town draws this kind of traffic on a Wednesday nite, in the buckle of the Bible belt? Throw in three others around town and you hear that huge sucking sound that Perot described.
Make note. OKC has lots of different entertainment opportunities spread around the city. Museums, theatre, sports, restaurants and shopping. They have the same demographics, similar income, education, COI, etc. Yeah, they're more cowpoke, surrounded by plain topography and connected with a maze of highways, but still pretty prosperous and farther along with the kinds of development we desire.
The glaring difference is that they only have one small casino that has little impact on the metro. Think about it. I don't begrudge them- I know our ancestors took their land and treated them vilely- I support free enterprise- I know they employ and redirect profits into the community. But is this what Tulsa is now?
I can buy some of that. I displayed some hubris. However, you've expanded the comparison to include the OKC region. Norman, El Reno, Harrah are in the "area" but not in the metro. If you make that comparison we would have to add in Okmulgee and WindRiver here too. Norman as part of the OKC area is a stretch as Norman does quite well in arts, entertainment and sports without OKC. The effect of the university balances out any casino dominance. Take BA, SS or Owasso away from Tulsa and they got squat. At least Bixby has an arena.
And no doubt the arts are more sophisticated and plentiful here cause we're not as cowboy..but... the argument still stands. Casino's do not drive OKC. More accurate to say government jobs do, but not Casinoes. Their promotions, billboards, magazine ads, TV ads etc are not dominated by gambling interests. Here, they share dominance with car dealers.
The first advertiser, sponsor or donor you better line up for a new magazine, fundraiser or special event in Tulsa had better be one of the casinoes, QT or a car dealership. Not so in OKC. (there its Chesapeake).
Its going to get worse. Visit one and see if my perception is in error.
the following quote is taken from Wikipedia about
quote:
Norman, Oklahoma is the anchor city of the south Oklahoma City Metropolitan Area and has a growing full-time population of over 106,000 residents, making it the state's third-largest city. Norman is home to the University of Oklahoma, the state's largest university. Norman is a combination of a well-established "college town," historic neighborhoods among the state's oldest, 1950's-era middle-class areas, and newer developments mostly on the town's north side. Always a hub of alternative music, Norman was home to indie rockers the Chainsaw Kittens and was a starting place for international super stars the Flaming Lips. Norman is also the hometown of movie star James Garner and country music star Vince Gill.
the Oklahoma City Metropolitan Statistical Area. (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_metropolitan_area%22) The last time I drove I-35 I do not remember every leaving the urban area driving between Norman and OKC. Try telling the OKC greater chamber of commerce that Norman is not part of OKC.
quote:
Originally posted by joiei
Always a hub of alternative music, Norman was home to indie rockers the Chainsaw Kittens and was a starting place for international super stars the Flaming Lips. Norman is also the hometown of movie star James Garner and country music star Vince Gill.
James Garner and Vince Gill I recognize. The others....? So What. I guess I am older than I thought.
Well, Joie, if Wiki said it then thats the end of it eh?
I'll tell Norman COC the same thing. COC's puff for their own purposes. Norman has, and does live just fine on its own in arts/entertainment/sports separate from OKC as your link to Wiki shows and anyone who's ever lived there can attest. It doesn't need OKC for its survival and it doesn't rely on casinoes either.
Norman anchoring the southern hub of the OKC Metro is about as legitimate as suggesting Bartlesville or Mannford anchor the western and Northern hubs of the Tulsa metro. Its 20 miles away for gawd's sake.
I would also point out that small towns run contiguously from Dallas to near the Oklahoma border. Atoka does not become the northern anchor for Dallas.
Even so, you can nitpick about definitions of trade areas or you could address my comparison of the two areas. OKC does not have 4 major casinos within a radius of 8 miles of their downtown core. It bears repeating....Three out of the four corners of this city are "anchored" with casinoes that sit within 8 miles of the arena. The only area of town without a major casino is SE Tulsa/Broken Arrow/Bixby. Define either city with arbitrary definitions of their trade areas, their areas of influence, their density of population or their demographics. The truth is that the casinoes here have more effect here than in OKC. And its not a positive effect.
Waterboy, your "Dallas to the Oklahoma border" argument is nonsense. It's not just Wikipedia. Norman is by every measure except yours in the OKC metro area. Your argument to the contrary is laughable. The United States census says that Norman is in the OKC metropolitan area.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/lists/2007/List1.txt (//%22http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/lists/2007/List1.txt%22) But they are all wrong and you're right?
You're painted into a corner. Beware of posting under the influence.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Well, Joie, if Wiki said it then thats the end of it eh?
I'll tell Norman COC the same thing. COC's puff for their own purposes. Norman has, and does live just fine on its own in arts/entertainment/sports separate from OKC as your link to Wiki shows and anyone who's ever lived there can attest. It doesn't need OKC for its survival and it doesn't rely on casinoes either.
Norman anchoring the southern hub of the OKC Metro is about as legitimate as suggesting Bartlesville or Mannford anchor the western and Northern hubs of the Tulsa metro. Its 20 miles away for gawd's sake.
I would also point out that small towns run contiguously from Dallas to near the Oklahoma border. Atoka does not become the northern anchor for Dallas.
Even so, you can nitpick about definitions of trade areas or you could address my comparison of the two areas. OKC does not have 4 major casinos within a radius of 8 miles of their downtown core. It bears repeating....Three out of the four corners of this city are "anchored" with casinoes that sit within 8 miles of the arena. The only area of town without a major casino is SE Tulsa/Broken Arrow/Bixby. Define either city with arbitrary definitions of their trade areas, their areas of influence, their density of population or their demographics. The truth is that the casinoes here have more effect here than in OKC. And its not a positive effect.
That link lists Tulsa as being a seven county area. So your "proof" that Norman is part of OKC also says Okmulgee is part of Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by cynical
Waterboy, your "Dallas to the Oklahoma border" argument is nonsense. It's not just Wikipedia. Norman is by every measure except yours in the OKC metro area. Your argument to the contrary is laughable. The United States census says that Norman is in the OKC metropolitan area.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/lists/2007/List1.txt (//%22http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/lists/2007/List1.txt%22) But they are all wrong and you're right?
You're painted into a corner. Beware of posting under the influence.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Well, Joie, if Wiki said it then thats the end of it eh?
I'll tell Norman COC the same thing. COC's puff for their own purposes. Norman has, and does live just fine on its own in arts/entertainment/sports separate from OKC as your link to Wiki shows and anyone who's ever lived there can attest. It doesn't need OKC for its survival and it doesn't rely on casinoes either.
Norman anchoring the southern hub of the OKC Metro is about as legitimate as suggesting Bartlesville or Mannford anchor the western and Northern hubs of the Tulsa metro. Its 20 miles away for gawd's sake.
I would also point out that small towns run contiguously from Dallas to near the Oklahoma border. Atoka does not become the northern anchor for Dallas.
Even so, you can nitpick about definitions of trade areas or you could address my comparison of the two areas. OKC does not have 4 major casinos within a radius of 8 miles of their downtown core. It bears repeating....Three out of the four corners of this city are "anchored" with casinoes that sit within 8 miles of the arena. The only area of town without a major casino is SE Tulsa/Broken Arrow/Bixby. Define either city with arbitrary definitions of their trade areas, their areas of influence, their density of population or their demographics. The truth is that the casinoes here have more effect here than in OKC. And its not a positive effect.
Cynical, Joeie. I speak of reality. You speak of statistical constructs. The elephant is sitting in your living room and all you can do is note that your living room seems smaller than it used to be yet it measures the same size. The facts are on your side so you argue them instead of the issues.
When's the last time you shopped Okmulgee? When's the last time you saw a play in Claremore? Visited that cool park in Bartlesville lately? When's the last time you visited Sapulpa for anything? Glenpool? Well guess what, they don't spend much time here either. Most are self sufficient. They have their own WalMarts, Targets, theaters and restaurants. They do shop here and they do gamble here but we also do the same with OKC, Dallas and KC.
Speaking of getting smaller. The number of thinkers on this forum seems to be getting smaller and smaller. Things are changing. Net shopping screws up the old models of MSA's doesn't it? Now my area is global as long as trucking works. I never have to leave home except to go to work. MSA's now seem to be increasing defining housing patterns rather than purchasing patterns.
If you fear upsetting the elephant in the living room thats reasonable. But to ignore he exists is folly. Either casino gambling is the best thing to hit Tulsa since oil or we have a new adjustment to make in allocation of our resources to serve a new, intangible producer owned by another nation. These are big players. Maybe that entity will pull money out of the outlying areas of our MSA and the corollary spending will be redeposited in the city, maybe not. One insider tells me they pull a million a day out of Tulsa just at one casino here in town. How does that effect discretionary spending in a city already reeling from losing so many businesses?
So find fault with my comparison of OKC not being driven by gambling. Or find fault with my assertion that Tulsa is. Or analyze the prospect that the direction of Tulsa development will reflect that fundamental change in focus. So far nothing I've said has been challenged except the delineation of a statistical area. I guess I nailed everything else.[:D]
Surface parking South of 81st is not concern of mine. If there were a place for surface parking lots...
I would definitely say Norman is in the OKC Metro. I cant imagine anyone thinking its not? Its right there on lol. I would also say Wind River is as well. I did some artwork in the Wind River casino and just basically said it was in OKC. Its also interesting to note that the distance from downtown OKC to the college in Norman is almost exactly the distance from downtown Tulsa to NSU BA. I wish we had a college as large and established as the one in Norman as close as NSU BA lol. Wow, what a difference that would have made in my life during my college years here.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I would definitely say Norman is in the OKC Metro. I cant imagine anyone thinking its not? Its right there on lol. I would also say Wind River is as well. I did some artwork in the Wind River casino and just basically said it was in OKC. Its also interesting to note that the distance from downtown OKC to the college in Norman is almost exactly the distance from downtown Tulsa to NSU BA. I wish we had a college as large and established as the one in Norman as close as NSU BA lol. Wow, what a difference that would have made in my life during my college years here.
Downtown Norman is 22miles from downtown OKC but I'm sure they appreciate you referring to them (a 100,000+ community) as OKC Metro. Note that NSU BA is only 13 miles at best. Why would you make that comparison is beyond me. When I attended we rarely had the time, transportation or money to hit the city. My son attended a few years ago and it was still the same. Thats over 30,000 of the Norman population that stays in Norman.
But whatever. I get it. Just spoke to a city PW employee today who understood my points real well. He sees it at a first tier level. Same budget as a decade ago with an increased workload but decreased taxes because 8% of that million dollars a day from one casino goes to OKC and is then returned at less than 4% to the city. The rest stays with the tribes. You all got it figured though.
Maybe Inteller can answer me this. Why are there no casinoes in your part of town? One is a mere 8 miles away from downtown, one is about 11 miles and the other about 5 miles, anchoring three corners of the city. What happened to your area? Were there no tribes there or did BA/Bixby/South Tulsa find enough sin in the rest of the city to suffice?[;)] Seriously. Is one planned to complete the circle?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I would definitely say Norman is in the OKC Metro. I cant imagine anyone thinking its not? Its right there on lol. I would also say Wind River is as well. I did some artwork in the Wind River casino and just basically said it was in OKC. Its also interesting to note that the distance from downtown OKC to the college in Norman is almost exactly the distance from downtown Tulsa to NSU BA. I wish we had a college as large and established as the one in Norman as close as NSU BA lol. Wow, what a difference that would have made in my life during my college years here.
Downtown Norman is 22miles from downtown OKC but I'm sure they appreciate you referring to them (a 100,000+ community) as OKC Metro. Note that NSU BA is only 13 miles at best. Why would you make that comparison is beyond me. When I attended we rarely had the time, transportation or money to hit the city. My son attended a few years ago and it was still the same. Thats over 30,000 of the Norman population that stays in Norman.
But whatever. I get it. Just spoke to a city PW employee today who understood my points real well. He sees it at a first tier level. Same budget as a decade ago with an increased workload but decreased taxes because 8% of that million dollars a day from one casino goes to OKC and is then returned at less than 4% to the city. The rest stays with the tribes. You all got it figured though.
Maybe Inteller can answer me this. Why are there no casinoes in your part of town? One is a mere 8 miles away from downtown, one is about 11 miles and the other about 5 miles, anchoring three corners of the city. What happened to your area? Were there no tribes there or did BA/Bixby/South Tulsa find enough sin in the rest of the city to suffice?[;)] Seriously. Is one planned to complete the circle?
Norman is just as much a part of OKCs metro as OKC is part of Normans metro lol. If you were in Norman you could say that OKC is part of Normans metro... and why not? Same with BA and Tulsa. Metro is metro.
Downtown OKC and the college in Norman is just about the same distance as downtown Tulsa is from the College in BA. Judge for yourself. And whether or not many people from suburb go to downtown Tulsa, doesn't change the fact that they are still in the same metro, even though they may hate the thought of it lol.
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6230/okctulsamapcz3.jpg)
Downtown Tulsa is 19.3 miles from NSU Broken Arrow. According to Google maps. I used Second and Main as my starting point.
Do you ever leave an urbanized area when driving between Norman, any exit and downtown Oklahoma City?
Downtown Bartlesville to 2nd and Main is 43.1 miles, not a great example. Google gives it an hour to driv between the two locations.
And if it is on a sports night then add about an hour. From my having to wait for the idiots trying to get on the freeway. I know this because I have been there and done that. I have experienced it taking 3 hours to get from the main street entrance to the I-44 exit off of I-35 to get home.
Now to address your questions about HOME.
THe last time I shopped in Okmulgee, I picked up a chocolate cream pie 3 weeks ago and yes, it was well worth the drive. Have you ever driven down to just have lunch, a burger an pie?
I have.
A play in Claremore, you have me there, I don't get any information for Rogers State about what is happening there like I do from TU.
Shopping in Sapulpa, considering the way you asked the question you haven't done any antique shopping in that beautiful town like I did 3 weeks go. Didnt' find anything but going to Sapulpa is a lot better than going to Blackwell.
Glenpool, I bought a carwash after filling up when I was on my way to Okmulgee. I think the QT carwash is way better than the carwash at 15th and Utica. Glenpool, that is where the darn carwash is.
Your turn!
To say that casino gambling is driving the economy in Tulsa, maybe if your a gambler. I am not and do not spend much time there. I have been to the Creek casino, boring and I have been to the Osage for a show, great time. But I do not see where casino gambling is driving anyones economy. The casinos here are basically a joke.
What is your hangup with Norman. It is a college town, it isn't the center of the universe. And it is the southern anchor of the OKC metropolitan region. Paul's Valley is out of town. Norman, just a suburb.
quote:
Originally posted by joiei
Downtown Tulsa is 19.3 miles from NSU Broken Arrow. According to Google maps. I used Second and Main as my starting point.
I used Google and merely counted the main cross streets as a mile and estimated the diagonal of the BA since its not a straight shot. 1300 Aspen I believe. Couldn't be 19 miles. I've driven it in less than 15 minutes. I don't drive that fast.
Do you ever leave an urbanized area when driving between Norman, any exit and downtown Oklahoma City?
Yes. It is not contiguous unless you consider Luvs or an empty Crossroads as urbanized.
Downtown Bartlesville to 2nd and Main is 43.1 miles, not a great example. Google gives it an hour to driv between the two locations.
Done it in 45 minutes and people tailgate me. People make the commute every day to work here or at the WalMart Distribution center. Is the WalMart distribution center part of far North Tulsa Metro or far South Bartlesville? Most of its employees are likely Tulsan's. It is as good an example as any since someone else used Harrah. Google sends you through Arkansas to get to New Orleans too. Most folks don't go that way.
And if it is on a sports night then add about an hour. From my having to wait for the idiots trying to get on the freeway. I know this because I have been there and done that. I have experienced it taking 3 hours to get from the main street entrance to the I-44 exit off of I-35 to get home.
I haven't a clue what you're referring to. OU football games? Yes it takes a long time. Longer than TU games for sure.
Now to address your questions about HOME.
THe last time I shopped in Okmulgee, I picked up a chocolate cream pie 3 weeks ago and yes, it was well worth the drive. Have you ever driven down to just have lunch, a burger an pie?
I have.
No. Drove through there to go down to Southern Tulsa...Henryetta.... You know, the southern part of the Metro.[;)]But never stopped. My point was that definitions of Metro's as defined by some government census is becoming less important as the net changes purchasing habits. How can you consider a small city as part of the nearby metro when there is little interplay other than commuting to work?
A play in Claremore, you have me there, I don't get any information for Rogers State about what is happening there like I do from TU.
Shopping in Sapulpa, considering the way you asked the question you haven't done any antique shopping in that beautiful town like I did 3 weeks go. Didnt' find anything but going to Sapulpa is a lot better than going to Blackwell.
Actually I love Sapulpa more than most of the surrounding burbs. Especially around Christmas. They have kept their own character. They saved their old buildings instead of paving them over. They are a small town who doesn't need Tulsa to survive either. The last thing a Sapalupan(sic) would call themselves is part of Tulsa or Tulsa Metro.
Glenpool, I bought a carwash after filling up when I was on my way to Okmulgee. I think the QT carwash is way better than the carwash at 15th and Utica. Glenpool, that is where the darn carwash is.
Agree strongly. I also bought gas at that QT. Now Glenpool is just part of the Jenks Metro.[;)]
Your turn!
To say that casino gambling is driving the economy in Tulsa, maybe if your a gambler. I am not and do not spend much time there. I have been to the Creek casino, boring and I have been to the Osage for a show, great time. But I do not see where casino gambling is driving anyones economy. The casinos here are basically a joke.
Direct observance and discussions with some who have seen first hand how it is changing the city. These were not "gamblers" like in Vegas. These were regular folk. The parking was so full on a Wednesday nite, they had several shuttles running constantly. And this was just one of the 4 casinos around town. I watched a woman gamble on a one arm machine as she held the wheel chair of a young woman totally mentally disabled and breathing oxy. Most likely your tax dollars paying her while she gambled. You can read over their shoulders the points they have accumulated. Wasn't uncommon to see 46,000 pts having been spent. That's $45,000 dollars not going into the local economy. Did you spend that much this past year on recreation? Out of each $1 spent in a casino, 98 cents stays there. There was no laughing, no smiling, no one having fun. Stories of paychecks squandered are pretty common. My guide was a regular and shared some pretty gruesome stories.
Its not a joke when millions of dollars leave an economy already decimated by job loss. Its not a joke when every medium in town, every promotion, every fund raiser depends in part on the support of the casinoes. Without casino, hospital, QT or car dealerships, your fundraiser or promotion fails. And they are increasing their operations. Ever been up North of Minneapolis and seen every bilboard to the northern border taken by Casinoes? Its awesome. Wait till they get their hotel, ferries, golf courses and shopping all tied together and learn to effectively cooperate with each other. As a separate nation they have no fear of collusion.
There is no going back but we have to realize that the game has changed. Development around casinoes is part of the new game. They don't care about downtown, sustainable neighborhoods or education (unless they own land for future casinoes). You don't see them opening grocery stores or movie theaters. They will now step into the corporate place that large oil vacated, but they are a separate nation. It means less tax base for the community. Less services, less maintenance. Thats no joke.
What is your hangup with Norman. It is a college town, it isn't the center of the universe. And it is the southern anchor of the OKC metropolitan region. Paul's Valley is out of town. Norman, just a suburb.
I love Norman. I have good memories of it. I still see it as a self sufficient city with an identity of its own. The fact that OKC has annexed huge areas and commerce is creeping towards them, doesn't make them OKCitians any more than Athens became Roman after conquest. It would surprise me if any of the locals relished being called part of the metro or just a "suburb" by those who only temporarily were residents for 4-6 years. Or who had worked there without understanding the local psyche. The Midwest City Bombers didn't change their identity either. Talk to people in Broken Arrow and infer that they are a mere Metro Tulsa suburb and get their response. Metro definitions are great for marketers, government statisticians and census miners, it just isn't very accurate for real life.
Anyway, thanks for reading and responding. I was beginning to think I was on everyone's ignore list.
Artist, I noticed the highways in Tulsa seem larger than the ones in OKC on your map. Perhaps your different scaling of the two maps interfered with your judgement of distance.[;)] Downtown Norman is much farther away from downtown OKC than NSU/BA is from downtown Tulsa. I've driven both regularly and I assure you that I can drive from most anywhere in BA to downtown Tulsa a lot faster than that Norman/OKC trip. Imagine stuffing all those little towns like MidWest City, Dell City, Moore and Purcell etc into the space between Tulsa and BA.
Downtown OKC -> Norman 22.9
Downtown Tulsa -> NSU BA 19.2
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Artist, I noticed the highways in Tulsa seem larger than the ones in OKC on your map. Perhaps your different scaling of the two maps interfered with your judgement of distance.[;)] Downtown Norman is much farther away from downtown OKC than NSU/BA is from downtown Tulsa. I've driven both regularly and I assure you that I can drive from most anywhere in BA to downtown Tulsa a lot faster than that Norman/OKC trip. Imagine stuffing all those little towns like MidWest City, Dell City, Moore and Purcell etc into the space between Tulsa and BA.
Your welcome to cut and paste the maps and put the 2 mile scales or 1 mile squares over each other and try to get the maps closer to scale lol. I have driven the OKC to Norman route many times. As for Moore and the other small towns along the highway, its one continuous thing. If it werent for signs you wouldnt know you had passed from one place to another.
Why the seeming animosity against a place being in anothers metro? I wouldn't get angry or upset if someone from BA said that Tulsa was in its metro. Because it would be true. Likewise someone from Norman could say that OKC is in its metro. And that would be true and nobody in OKC would get bent out of shape about it lol. Its not something that takes away from either cities identity or self-worth, or whatever it is that seems to upset you about the idea.
Plano is in the Dallas Metro, but Plano has its own history, unique identity and pride, etc. No big deal. I live in the Tulsa Metro, but still have my sense of pride and place, even to the point that I am a mid-town snob and have fun deriding south Tulsa at every chance I get lol. [;)] I was that way even when I lived in BA and Owasso lol.
Grizz, where were the measurements for Norman to OKC? If you used one of the "official" measurements, that may reference the city limits where you can't even see the skyline.
Anyway, it feels strange that you folks chose one word to focus on. Metro. And passed over the issues I put forth relating to the relative impact of casinoes on the two cities. A friend of mine who moved here from California a decade ago can't understand why Oklahomans are so slow to recognize, address and make progress against what he sees as its major problems: Gambling, Drugs, Smoking, Low Wages, Graft. When I point out that Cali has the same problems, he notes, "Yes, but we are aware of it and work towards solutions. Here, it seems to be unrecognized till its too late to do anything about".
Two farmers find two horses who have escaped their corral and are wandering the highway. They are trying to identify which horse belongs to each of them. Both horses are geldings with a cropped tail. Both have a light colored swirl around their necks. They are the same size, weight and height. The farmers argue because each description fits their horse perfectly. The farmers finally give up and decide to leave it to chance. They ask a passing stranger to arbitrarily decide. He thinks a moment and makes a suggestion. "You take the black one and you take the white one."
I won't beat this dead horse any longer. All is well in the Tulsa Metro.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I was that way even when I lived in BA and Owasso lol.
UNCLEAN! REPENT!
The economics of the Casinos here are very different than they are in most places. The local casinos are just that, they are locally owned and run. The profits are not going to some large out of the state company with an out of state headquarters office where the back office people are located.
The money that is gambled in the casinos around Tulsa stays in our local economy. Local people are employed in the casinos and the profits go to the local tribes who then spend the money locally. It is just moving money around; it's not a loss to the economy. And the casinos actually bring in lots of extra money into the local economy by bringing in visitors who spend money at the casino that then gets distributed back into the local economy.
A casino may be a drain on a single person's economic standing but not on our metro economy. A single Best Buy store with out of state offices selling products made in China has to drain far more money out of the Tulsa economy than one of those huge casinos. I would argue that the casinos are likely a pretty large net gain into the Tulsa economy when all the cash that visitors spend is figured in.
I'd also like to add a couple of things.
1. The state revenue that is generated by the casinos and distributed across the state is not just coming from the Tulsa casinos. It is from all of the casinos that have signed gaming compacts to allow them to have class 3 level slot machines. I believe this includes the two huge casinos along the Texas border, the one near Norman, the one in the NW across the border from Joplin and the ones along the Arkansas border. The amount that the state collects will continue to grow as more and more tribes sign compacts so that they can have the class 3 machines that draw more customers.
2. The reason OKC does not have a huge Casino economy right now is not because they are enlightened to the evils of casino gaming. It is because of the lack of tribal lands in the OKC area. Several tribes have tried to purchase land in OKC for a casino, but none of them have been successful because of the extra restrictions on land purchased by the tribes instead of land that was part of their original territory. If a tribe could build in OKC, they would jump at the chance and I assure you that the casino would be very successful.
3. While there are definitely problems with casinos, I agree with Swake. I actually almost rather someone spend $100 at an Indian Casino where that money is split between the thousands of mid-range jobs created by the casinos and the tribes who have been building medical clinics to help out undeserved and rural populations, and the state which uses it's portion for education, than to pay $100 for a night at an OKC Thunder game where the money goes to Clay Bennett, a few overpaid athletes, a few hundred employees and a small taxed amount that goes to OKC and the state.
We'll just have to take your word, Swake, regarding the amount of money coming and going and where it goes. I have no proof of my assertions either. They are different nations that happen to reside here, but no evidence that they recycle that wealth or draw in revenue from outside the region.
I appreciate your remarks too, TulsaEx, though they are not unknown to me. The quality of the jobs at casinoes at the mid level are enticing, however, their availability to the non-tribal population is a problem. The tribes discriminate by race. And I'm not so sure that their success would be guaranteed in OKC. Casinoes don't succeed everywhere. There are lots more entertainment venues there, the population is spread out over a huge area and the costs of advertising in a major media market are higher.
You did however touch on the one central issue I brought up- how the lack of concentration of casinoes in OKC, for whatever reasons, has forced different paths of development in the two cities. That much discretionary income being spent on gambling has to have an effect on the personality and direction of a city. For instance, if the Creeks had located their hotel/gambling facilities upstream by Sand Springs on the riverbank, its most likely that would be the location of the next low water dam and not Jenks.
I have now visited two of the three major casino operations here and its truly a dismal experience. I couldn't find the gorgeous women from the billboards and TV ads laughing, drinking...winning. I would recommend that more of you visit and make note. Failure to understand this component of our city's makeup could make for some errant decisionmaking on our part.